A Conversation with Tracy Corrigan and Elizabeth Guarino: Career Services and Community at Ohio University

Dr. Amy Taylor Bianco and Nick Winnenberg sit down with Tracy Corrigan, Associate Director of Alumni Success, and Elizabeth Guarino, Associate Director Career Services and Engagement at Ohio University. They discuss what drew them back to OU, their career experiences, and how they work to build a sense of community and belonging for students both on campus and online. Tracy and Elizabeth share anecdotes from working with students and insights into the benefits of OU's Masters of Science in Management program.

For more information about the Ohio University MSM Program, click this link!

Check out the Robert D. Walter Center for Strategic Leadership program here.

OnBrand Podcast Studios produced this episode. Special thanks to Audio Engineer Alex Winnenberg, Producer Nick Winnenberg, and Marketing Specialist Cori Stokes.

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Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

Bye.

SPEAKER_04: 0:13

I'm Dr. Amy Taylor Bianco, and I'm here with Nick Winnenberg. And we're here in the College of Business at the Walter Center for Strategic Leadership, sitting in the Leader Lounge with Tracy Corrigan and Elizabeth Garino, Directors of Residential and Online Career Services. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you. Glad to be here. Glad to have you both. And students at our programs will already know both of you. They've seen you in front of them quite a few times and kind of know what you do, but I'd like to hear just a little bit about first what brought you back to Ohio University. You both came back to the sort of college of business to start with, but then even broader in the university. But what brought you back to kind of Bobcat land and then how you work within that?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

Sure. So very quickly, I came to school. very long time ago, which we don't have to mention. We don't have to talk about that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:14

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15

And I never left. And then I married a man who was from the area. So I ended up staying in Athens and I raised my children here. Beautiful. Life happens and left the area for seven years. But OU is home to me. This is where I raised my children. And when the opportunity came back that I could actually come back to the College of Business, I jumped all over that. And I'm extraordinarily happy to be back.

SPEAKER_04: 1:47

Oh, we're so glad to have you back. I have the privilege of knowing you when you were first here and seeing all you did then and then welcoming you back. So it's just an honor to meet with you. Elizabeth. Let's hear,

SPEAKER_01: 2:00

because you've got a great story too. Thank you. So I was called to the area. This is my first time being in the Southeast Ohio area. I'd lived in Columbus for over 20 years, certainly had a career there. And then as my sons were getting older and my nest was emptying, I felt the call of the hills. My husband and I started visiting the area we would go to a local Scottish inn and felt very much like I was supposed to be here so in 2018 found a job at an institution down the road a bit and spent about three and a half years there always with my eye on Athens always with my eye on Ohio University have family who have been Bobcats And so as this opportunity presented itself, I was sure that there was, you know, some more enthusiastic, you know, bubbly type of person that was going to be selected for the role in the College of Business. migrated over to Ohio Online earlier this year, February of this year. And love it.

SPEAKER_04: 3:36

Excellent. Excellent. And you talked a little bit about, you know, had a career there. You had a phenomenal career. So can we hear just a little bit about your career experience before you came to an academic setting?

SPEAKER_01: 3:48

Yeah, absolutely. So I did my master's degree in student affairs at Ohio State and always focused on career, career counseling. So after I finished my degree, I thought I better go get some job experience if I wanted to be an effective career coach. So that led to about 30 years

SPEAKER_02: 4:15

of

SPEAKER_01: 4:21

job experience. And during that time, I've been very fortunate. So started a consulting practice in outsourced human resource services. Did that for 14 years. Um, Sold the business, had a client that wanted to acquire his biggest competitor. We had worked together for about 10 years, and he, as I was transitioning out of the consulting business, he basically was like, look, it's now or never. You have to help me come do this thing. So we did the thing, and it took about three years for that to happen. And we knew that the HR role... was going to kind of shrink back after the acquisition had occurred, which meant that we were going to hire someone. to come in. So I was faced with a decision. I needed to either reengage as a consultant and kind of go back to the consulting practice or become a W2 employee, which was which was a weird concept for me at the time. So decided to network and do potentially a job search. And that very fortunately led to the role as chief People Officer for Raising Canes of Ohio.

SPEAKER_03: 5:47

Small little

SPEAKER_01: 5:48

company. Tiny. People Officer. It's

SPEAKER_04: 5:51

so

SPEAKER_01: 5:51

exciting. Truly one of the most fun experiences of my career, really. I became a fry cook first and foremost, so I can drop bird. Not as well as bird droppers drop bird, but certainly enjoyed a very interesting experience and And after that concluded, I did do one more C-level position with a larger restaurant kind of holding company. So multinational, many restaurant concepts kind of under the umbrella. But the pull of the hills got me, and it caused me to leave that position and come here. I

SPEAKER_03: 6:37

love it. Wow. All fantastic experience too. And one of the things I love most about what you guys are doing to help with students with the soft skills and the hard skills and the job searching and the career preparation is you're coming out with this real world and practical experience. But I will say I've hired Bobcats professionally before and there's something about them. And it's not something that I can look at and say, oh, it's this, right? Or it's they are well spoken or they have hard work ethic. Do you see that? And what do you think that extra special thing is?

SPEAKER_01: 7:07

Absolutely. see it and thought that I might see it kind of as I was coming in right but as President Gonzalez described during her investiture you know last week it's so hard to put your finger on it how I would describe it is students are much more engaged where I've taught on campuses before I've been an adjunct faculty member and students tend to kind of lean back, if that makes sense, and sort of let the education wash over them. Where here on this campus, particularly with our students, they lean in and they lean in with everything that they've got. So it's a pleasure to serve in this way.

SPEAKER_03: 7:59

Do you see the same thing from the empress and residential perspective?

SPEAKER_00: 8:03

I do. And I've been at a few different institutions. Of course, everything gets compared to Ohio University. I compare Athens to the Shire. I do. We've got this little bubble that we're all very happy in. And I think that the residential component and the fact that there's nowhere else for them to go. They all stay here, and as a consequence, they bond. And they make these deep and lasting relationships with each other and with their faculty. It's common to see a faculty member out, and they can have lunch with them, or in some social situation or game situation that's outside of the classroom, so they become real people. And I think that that sense of community infuses everything that happens here so that when they get into class and we talk about team participation and everybody holding everyone else up, they already do it in their residential lives. It's just something that we do here. And that sense of community I have not encountered at another school. yet. I'm sure it exists out there, but I'm a little partial. It

SPEAKER_03: 9:22

is.

SPEAKER_04: 9:24

And we see it with our alumni too, right? We just had our alumni advisory board here where we also, a student asked the question and got the same answer that if they wanted to be in the restaurant business, they needed to go to the bottom of the supply chain and get a job as the fry cook or whatever. They were told it was an answer they probably wouldn't want to hear, but that's what they were told. So these students are a We're fully engaged, right? And the advisory board meets with our students online. We have lots of different, so how does this work from an online perspective? Because I think we have that same sense of belonging and closeness. In your experience, how does that work within the MSM program and more generally as well?

SPEAKER_01: 10:07

Well, the MSM program, and there are a couple of other master's programs in the College of Business that I would say are uncharacteristically close. program in particular the students are clearly bonded with you and each other in a different way than they are with other other programs in terms of your actual question the online community that is actually my mission it's a it's a professional mission it's sort of a personal mission also and that is to truly create a sense of community around career but the entire overall Ohio Online team is working to create that sense of belonging and the sense of connection across the webiverse, across the university and those programs. So an example of what we do now is we do these webinars that are on career-focused topics. And really great, like timely topics that they're going to want to come. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, we've got a couple. We've got chat GPT coming up in a couple of weeks. But what I find is interesting is that students now are joining these webinars from across campus or across, because we can't think, right? We have to detach from the geography. So across the university's programs. So we'll have students enrolled in a doctorate in athletic training and a master's in organizational communication and the MSM program and the online MBA program. So they come to it from different perspectives. The healthcare programs are also starting to come online as well.

SPEAKER_03: 11:55

And I think my favorite thing about the MSM program and that cultural building, it's been intentional, right? And that's the one interesting thing. Like when I look back before I was a student president, you had Robin and you had Maria before that, and all of them are doing this thing to build that collective culture. And we just build on the shoulders of giants. And next year, I'm really excited because Connor Thomas, who I know that we both know very well. So he's going to take the reins with that and seeing what is being prepared from the online perspective for the community. I mean, it's not even better than what we've been doing. So just this entire culture We're building online. I didn't know it was possible. I didn't think it was possible. And I first when she was talking like, oh, come join this online program. I thought I was going to log on, take a couple of courses, log off, go take a nap. But no, it's this community. It's this family that's been formed. And it's just been such a wonderful experience. Thank you for your part of it, because I know that you've been participating a lot of the conversations, too.

SPEAKER_01: 12:49

I am fortunate that several of the program directors have been intentional about including me. me in sometimes they'll do fireside chats like the MSM program has or to be a guest lecturer or in the College of Health Science Professions CHSP they do things that they call on campus intensives so they bring online students in they have a residency requirement and that is becoming more popular as well so the opportunity to be in front of students and to have that career discussion. You know, career is something that sometimes people think, oh, I just sort of fell into the career that I have, or I just have a job. I don't have a career. But the truth is we spend so much of our lives in our careers that to be able to create the career that you want or to be able to cultivate that joy in work, right? That sense of joy in work is what defines a work culture. And being able to contribute to just the intentionality of helping people select the roles or select the organizations or the direction that they want to go in is a true privilege.

SPEAKER_03: 14:17

Right. I love that. And from the on-campus experience as well, have you noticed a shift in demographics with students at all? Is there anything that's going more or less prevalent With the

SPEAKER_00: 14:28

demographics? Just

SPEAKER_03: 14:29

like trends. Do you see that more engaged, less engaged? Because I know pandemic was a major kind of disruption towards the in-campus perspective.

SPEAKER_00: 14:36

Yeah. Definitely see and feel that they are far more engaged right now. And they're craving that in-person experience. As part of the residential MBA program, they're all in cohorts, and then within the cohorts, they're in teams, and they're working together. Their professional development series is in person. So it's watching them bond and engage together. I'm sure you understand this, Amy, when you're in a classroom and students are talking back at you and they're engaging, it's like, oh, yeah, I have students who talk. This is great. Yeah, it's wonderful. And that's, you know, that's how we all learn is through the sharing of ideas and, you know, what is everybody else doing? They tend to learn more, almost as much. from each other as they do for whomever is in the classroom with them, so. That's cool. Absolutely,

SPEAKER_04: 15:35

and that's very true, like, in our program. I mean, I can't, I don't know, you know, I know what I know, right? Like, there's lots that I don't know, but I know that you have a peer who knows, right? There's somebody out there, there's somebody in that community. And it's nice with the MBA because we have three different options, so if you want to do it, you know, all in person and you're kind of, you know, coming in with maybe less experience, but you really want that, like, live together kind of feel, and that kind of bonding and then we have the PMBA where you have some residential but more online and then we have the online MBA which is again more online but you can come or I think that one is required to come in person for the leadership development weekend. So we have different options depending on what's right for that student, for that person.

SPEAKER_01: 16:23

And one of the things that's been true across all of the programs that I found surprising is that sense of community. So the students will themselves describe their experiences kind of like you were talking about, Nick. Yeah, I thought I was going to take some classes and get some grades and kind of march my way through this program and then get the degree at the end and I would use that for whatever I wanted to leverage it for. But the big surprise is the community just kind of blooms.

SPEAKER_03: 16:53

It does.

SPEAKER_01: 16:54

It doesn't matter kind of where or how, it just happens. And I think that's kind of back to our our original point, which is one of the true distinguishing factors about Ohio University and being a Bobcat.

SPEAKER_03: 17:07

It becomes a magnet. Because at the end of the day, I was not expecting myself to be as engaged as I am coming on campus to do

SPEAKER_02: 17:14

a podcast. He's very engaged.

SPEAKER_03: 17:16

But suddenly, you start to do this thing. And then you start to see it be reflected in your other students. And then they start bringing in their students. It's this referral network. It becomes this magnetic thing. And the momentum is unstoppable. But it's how do you capture it, right? And what do you see? What's the world market? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:32

So one of the fun things is I just became a student myself just this semester. So I started a Ph.D. program in higher ed and student affairs, of course. Of course. Full circle. Full circle. But now the sense of empathy that I feel for students and how much email students get and the things that we hear as staff, but we don't really see it or feel it or experience it as students. And so now I have that opportunity as well to really feel it like a student.

SPEAKER_03: 18:06

I love it. I didn't know you were getting your PhD. That's fantastic. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01: 18:09

Thank

SPEAKER_03: 18:10

you. And do not take another 30 years to get job experience after, right? Now we're good just to continue

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

the pipeline. Well, now I can kind of check the

SPEAKER_03: 18:16

box

SPEAKER_01: 18:16

on that.

SPEAKER_03: 18:18

Right. That's fantastic. So

SPEAKER_04: 18:19

I'd like to hear some kind of tidbits. I know career advising really can't be done that way, but kind of a few things to engage students. So early on, they get into their program. Some of our programs are very short and that's kind of what students are looking for right now a lot of times is something that's quicker and we want to get them you know connected with career right away we want to get them thinking about the different skills they have particularly in the MSM they have these two certificates that they get plus management management and leadership and so they need to combine all these skills together to in order to be even more valuable right so how do we get them to engage early on? What things would you say to them? I mean, I know you come, you speak to them, but what do you have for people listening? What do you have about why it's important or, I don't know, to pique their interest in getting involved right away? Both of you,

SPEAKER_00: 19:17

yeah. Well, they don't get a choice. Tracy has a captive audience. Okay,

SPEAKER_04: 19:26

so there's that

SPEAKER_00: 19:26

for sure, right? In the residential MBA program, they have a professional development series that's part of their program. And it's a big part of their program. And they're required to attend those professional development workshops. So I get... two workshops in the fall with them and three in the spring. And the time that the students come and spend with me one-on-one. So it becomes not just about your skills, your transferable skills, and the things that you're learning, which is all very important and they need to understand. It's also about what kind of life do you want to set up for yourself? Where do you want to live? What kind of company do you want to work for? What's the culture you want to be in? To me, that is paramount in deciding which direction you're going to go with your career. Because we all know, we've all had jobs that we've And, you know, you're spending a lot of money here to educate yourself and to upskill. Even though

SPEAKER_04: 20:28

we're one of the best

SPEAKER_00: 20:29

values. Well.

SPEAKER_04: 20:30

I will say that. Sorry. No, you're fine. It's

SPEAKER_00: 20:35

true. It's a huge investment. But, you know, you're taking all this time and money and investing in yourself and expanding. And so let's take some time and really put some thought behind, some intentional thought behind, what do I want to create after I leave here? Love it. So that's kind of the what the professional development series is sitting on. That's

SPEAKER_04: 20:56

great because you can tell them to come. Right. And that's one thing. But then like how you're actually engaging them is talking about what life they want. Right. And life they want to create.

SPEAKER_01: 21:06

Yeah. And I would say from the online perspective, there's a certain segment of the student population that simply is not going to consume career services because they came in for a specific purpose. They know what they want out of their program. They know how they're going to leverage that degree when they finish. And so they're in, they're doing their thing, and then they're kind of out. But there is a group of students, and data is early. We're just kind of standing up all of our outcome measurement practices. But we think we're somewhere around 35% to 40% of the students that are enrolled in any given program who kind of come in and go, okay, I know I want to get this degree, and I know I want to use it for something related to my career, but I'm not real sure what that means.

SPEAKER_03: 22:01

If

SPEAKER_01: 22:02

I want to pivot within... the same kind of career track that I'm in if I want to change career directions. And I was actually just talking with my supervisor just this morning about I have a student who came in from a very focused, very disciplined kind of career position and job. And as we started to talk, and he started to kind of see and understand his skills, right? Because if we do a mock interview, I become your mirror, right? Because I'm telling you exactly what's going on in my recruiter mind, because I've done talent acquisition for 25 years. Exactly. So I'm giving you real feedback. Now, it's a brutal process, but students understand that when they opt into it. And as a result of that, he's now broadened his view about his possibilities in ways that I would not have even predicted. So there's such joy in that. It's scary too, but the joy in that is... that all of a sudden life becomes so much broader on its horizons.

SPEAKER_03: 23:25

100%. 100%. Any other questions or comments, or is there anything else you want to talk about with graduate services or career services?

SPEAKER_01: 23:33

No, did we talk about the Walter Center enough?

SPEAKER_03: 23:37

We can plug it in if you want. So you want to do it or you want

SPEAKER_04: 23:40

to do it? Yeah, I'll go ahead and do it, and then I'll kind of go into a question. So we're sitting in the Walter Center in the leader lounge here that we have for our leaders. And the Walter Center, we've talked to other guests, is certainly a catalyst for leadership development and programs. And Tim and Tammy Reynolds and now Jen Traxler and lots of us have helped to develop different programs over time. We really see ourselves with the MSM as a leadership development program that happens to have courses. And, you know, that's how I really see it. And I think that's why we connect so much like with career is it really is that that development program. So I just love to hear if you have any experiences with the Walter Center, what they are, any thoughts there? Well, I'm a low key fangirl

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

of Jen Traxler. You know, like I don't stalk her out and out. right but I absolutely low key try to make sure that I'm kind of where she is just because of the presence that she brings and her own shared experiences about the leadership journey so I am a true fan of both the center and Jen herself yeah

SPEAKER_00: 25:02

and being exposed to Tim and Tammy and And the way that they work with students is just such a pleasure to watch. I'm like, your mouth hangs open. But what they're teaching and the self-introspection and what are my gifts and strengths and how do I cultivate that into leadership? And even if I don't have the title leader, how am I bringing that with me into everything that I do? I think every student... the university would benefit from leadership training because it's just... That's where, you know, that's where it begins is with self. And it's really cool.

SPEAKER_03: 25:47

And I shared a fun story, too, and then we'll wrap up. But with them both, actually, and I'm in staffing and recruiting. That's the main industry. We also have this company, which is the fun company, right? But with the staffing and recruiting company, I went through Tim and Tammy's course. And one of the course topics was build your purpose statement. When I was doing it, I'm like, okay, when am I going to use this? Am I going to use this to make more money? But I cannot tell you how many times I've had to reference back to that when faced with a tough decision. Because that's when it comes back to it. And if I wouldn't have been coached with that in undergrad, I mean, I can tell you, I mean, I probably wouldn't be in jail, but I would be close, right? So watching that development as a leader The real world impact on that goes far beyond what you're learning about accounting. It's how are you approaching your career and your reality.

SPEAKER_01: 26:34

And leadership is such a personal journey. There's no amount of class, there's no amount of guidance or coaching that is possible if you as a leader or me as a leader is not willing to look inside on a very deep level. And I don't mean just you know, how do you set an agenda and run a meeting kind of skill? We talk about now in business culture, and I just heard this yesterday, they're talking about instead of STEM education, they're talking about mesh education. Have you heard about this? Yes, I love it. Yeah, mental, emotional, social, and health, something about health. Yeah. And so All of those things require that introspection that for an extrovert like me is a gargantuan

SPEAKER_03: 27:30

ask. Same.

SPEAKER_01: 27:31

Yeah. So to have that discipline and the ability to really look inside and kind of scoop down deep to see what is your true makeup absolutely defines a career.

UNKNOWN: 27:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03: 27:48

Love it. I think it's a really good place to wrap up. So is there any other questions?

SPEAKER_04: 27:51

I do too. I think that's a good place to wrap this. And I just want to, in case we want to do something else, I just wanted to put in how we could just quickly work in Mel Culp because we're kind of talking about the undergraduate experience. So...

SPEAKER_03: 28:06

Who's Mel?

SPEAKER_04: 28:07

Mel directs the career services at the undergrad level and she does a great job and she's kind of, you

SPEAKER_03: 28:11

know, the three of you a lot. I see what you're

SPEAKER_04: 28:14

saying. So we referred to undergrad. So I'm just thinking how to like go back to your story or something like to,

SPEAKER_01: 28:21

you know. So a third component of the career team in the College of Business, Tracy and I are providing graduate student services or career services to graduate students. But we can't forget about the BACS team. And that's the business, academic, and career. Oh,

SPEAKER_03: 28:45

gosh. Who are you looking at? Alex?

SPEAKER_01: 28:46

Yeah, Bax. Yes. But that program is led by Dr. Melissa Culp, who is an extremely dynamic leader and has been similarly engaged with herself and her team in all things related to career?

SPEAKER_04: 29:08

We're so fortunate. We have just an incredible team. So if you're ready for that, or even if she can get to you and she and her team, even if you're not ready at the undergrad level, we've got it for you. If you're ready for a little more at the grad level, we've got it for you here in the college and across the university.

SPEAKER_03: 29:26

Love it.

SPEAKER_04: 29:27

Can I do one third thing?

SPEAKER_03: 29:28

Go for

SPEAKER_04: 29:29

it. Okay, we'll just see how it goes. But I wanted to get, Elizabeth, if I could. So they've done an article recently on the benefits of the MSM program, because it's different, right? So I wanted to see if I could just get your thoughts on, you know, students, if they come for a graduate business degree, they have different options. And just, you know, we know the MBA, they also could specialize, they could do, you know, our Mac program and accounting. So So they have different options. And the Master's of Science in Management is a different kind of degree. It's really like a leadership development degree. But you've worked with a lot of these students. You know them intimately. What are your thoughts on the benefits of that experience? that type of program so yeah

SPEAKER_01: 30:16

so i'll go back to kind of an earlier comment many of the topics that are offered in the master's programs are heady right they're intellectual it's how do you learn about the analytics and how do you learn about the the bottom line and how do you look at a ledger and how do you um kind of operate within the mechanics of business yeah i would describe Mm-hmm. People are the seen but unseen mechanisms of business. Nothing happens, right, without the workforce. I used to say this as an HR person. If every person on payroll stood up and walked out of the building, what would the business be left with? A bunch of inventory. Yeah, right. But no real assets. So the MSM program, because I am a fan of human capital, and growth of the human capital assets. takes that very thing, the asset of human will, and grows and builds it in a way that is applied toward business. But the fun of it is it also happens with each other. So the classmates, the cohort mates, apply those skills with each other so they're practicing at the same time that they're learning. And that's what I think is so special about it.

SPEAKER_04: 32:02

That's phenomenal the way you've met our students. where they are, and they're all different places, right? We're a really wide group of students.

SPEAKER_03: 32:10

It's pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_04: 32:11

It is, it's pretty wild. So you've met them where they are, and I've seen you have a student, they come in, they want to speak with you, they want career services. Then you give them something pretty tough, and they're kind of like, oh, not sure if I wanted that. And you're like, okay, come back when you're ready. And it's this process. So I guess from all career points of view, but in this program, I want to get students starting that process. Because it is a process and it is it's a process of developing yourself. Right. So it is sometimes scary. Sometimes there's parts we don't really want to see, but they're there. So we got to embrace them. So I love the way you use that kind of systems approach that you have to to developing the students.

SPEAKER_01: 32:55

Well, W. Edwards Deming would say that, yes, it's systems, but there is also a human system. So it is the system of profound. knowledge within which humans operate that i have been a student of my my entire career

SPEAKER_03: 33:14

i love

SPEAKER_01: 33:15

that

SPEAKER_03: 33:15

Rock on. Yeah, that's a great outro right there. We'll just end on that. But I do have, Tracy, one question. This can be off mic, too. So you compared Athens to the Shire

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

earlier. Yes, I know. So

SPEAKER_03: 33:25

what's Mordor? Which school is Mordor? I mean, is that Miami? Is that Ohio State? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 33:32

Can I tell you a little story?

SPEAKER_03: 33:33

Sure. We saw live. Can this be

SPEAKER_00: 33:36

live? I think so, yeah. Okay. So that's the best part. Earlier in my career, I worked for University Communications and Marketing.

SPEAKER_03: 33:44

At OU.

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

At OU.

SPEAKER_03: 33:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

And at one point we were putting together a profile for the university for our marketing efforts. And we brought in a consultant. And what they did was they created personas for Ohio University and for our, what we would call our biggest competitors. And so Ohio State was a person that wore a track suit and wore Nikes. They drove a Hummer and they had a Rottweiler as a dog. Okay. So that was kind of a first time. All right. That's fine. Miami was someone who wore a suit. They drove a BMW. Yep. And their dog was a Doberman. Oh, that's a good one. Okay. Are you with me? Ohio University. And this encapsulates the thing that we can't figure out. They wore Gap shoes. Clothing, outdoor clothing. They drove an open-top Jeep, and their dog was a golden retriever.

SPEAKER_03: 34:50

Oh, 100%. Right? They're probably wearing tie-dye. They might be hungover. Right, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 34:54

So that is the different personas. So I'll leave it to you to decide which is Mordor based on those descriptions.