Today's Heartlift with Janell
Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not really true. Sometimes the story others tell about us is not really true. On "Today's Heartlift with Janell," Author, Trauma-informed, board-certified marriage and family specialist, and Professional Heartlifter, Janell Rardon, opens conversations about how emotional health and mental fitness effects absolutely every area of our lives. When we possess and practice healthy, strong, resilient emotional health practices, life is so much better. Read Janell's newest book, "Stronger Every Day: 9 Tools for an Emotionally Healthy You."
Today's Heartlift with Janell
339. Ready to Break the Stress Cycle in Your Life?
What happens when life throws you not just a curveball, but an ongoing series of challenges with no end in sight? Katie Schnack, author of "Everything Is Not Fine," opens up about her journey through her son Shepherd's diagnosis with a rare medical condition called VACTERL.
Rather than offering trite solutions, Katie shares how she's learned to hold both joy and sorrow simultaneously. She describes beautiful moments of divine reassurance, like when her three-year-old daughter spontaneously sang "Jesus Loves Me" exactly when Katie had been praying for a sign of God's love. These "everyday epiphanies" became anchors in the storm.
The discussion challenges conventional notions of what it means to be "inspirational" during hardship. As Katie's friend wisely told her, "Courage doesn't mean you're not scared; it means you're scared and do it anyway." This reframing allows space for honest emotional processing while still moving forward in faith.
For anyone navigating ongoing challenges—whether medical issues, grief, relationship difficulties, or other circumstances without clear resolution—this conversation offers both companionship and practical wisdom. Katie shares how community support, intentional grief processing, and "closing the stress cycle" through physical activity have helped her develop resilience.
Visit Katie's website: KATIE
Order Katie's book: Everything Is (Not) Fine
Listen to Janell's Meditative Exercise: The Waiting Room
Begin Your Heartlifter's Journey:
- Visit and subscribe to Heartlift Central on Substack. This is our new online coaching center and meeting place for Heartlifters worldwide.
- Download the "Overcoming Hurtful Words" Study Guide PDF: BECOMING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY
- Meet me on Instagram: @janellrardon
- Leave a review and rate the podcast: WRITE A REVIEW
- Learn more about my books and work: Janell Rardon
- Make a tax-deductible donation through Heartlift International
As I've listened to the stories of thousands of women of all ages in all kinds of stages through the years, I've kept their stories locked in the vault of my heart. I feel as if they've been walking around with me all through these years. They've bothered me, they've prodded me and sometimes kept me up at night. Ultimately, they've increased my passion to reframe and reimagine the powerful positions of mother and matriarch within the family system. I'm a problem solver, so I set out to find a way to perhaps change the trajectory of this silent and sad scenario about a dynamic yet untapped source of potential and purpose sitting in our homes and churches. It is time to come to the table, heartlifters, and unleash the power of maternal presence into the world. Welcome to Mothering for the Ages, our 2025 theme. Here on today's Heartlift. I'm Janelle. I am your guide here on this heartlifting journey. I invite you to grab a pen, a journal and a cup of something really delicious. May today's conversation give you clarity, courage and a revived sense of camaraderie. You see, you're not on this journey alone. We are unified as heartlifters and committed to bringing change into the world one heart at a time.
Speaker 1:Katie Schnack is a writer and book publicist. Her articles have appeared in Relevant Todaycom. Hello, giggles, romper and Scary. Mommy Katie and her family live in West Palm Beach, florida, and she is the author of the Gap Decade when you're technically an adult but really don't feel like it yet and her newest book, everything Is Not Fine Finding Strength when Life Gets Annoy gets annoyingly difficult. She writes.
Speaker 1:A few days before the second MRI I was texting with my friend Kelsey. I said to her how I wish I was stronger, I wish I could be more a pillar of faith, an example of a strong, brave parent. During this moment I sure didn't feel that way. I felt more like a useless, wet blanket of fear and worry, desperately begging everyone in my circle and all the faceless strangers on the internet to pray for Shepherd and for us. For Shepherd and for us, because that is all I knew to do Worry and asking for prayer. And what Kelsey texted back was something I will never forget.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I don't think anyone is actually that inspirational until they come out to the other side of the hard things. Kelsey wrote you are faithful because you are asking for prayer and running to God for help. We should change what we think it means to be inspirational. It isn't about doing everything perfectly, but about being true to yourself, being honest with the hard feelings. It is like what they say about courage Courage doesn't mean you are not scared. It means you are scared and do it anyway. Hello and welcome to today's Heart Lift with Janelle. I am so happy to welcome Katie to the show today. Katie is going to help us reimagine what it means to be inspirational. Inspiration really means to breathe light into someone else and boy, katie is going to breathe life into us today. Are you ready? Let's welcome Katie life into us today.
Speaker 1:Are you ready? Let's welcome Katie Hi. Thanks for having me. So happy to have you here, katie, we really are. We've been waiting for this conversation because your newest book Everything is parentheses, not fine, great title. I love it in the parentheses. Finding strength in life gets annoyingly difficult and that placement of that adverb, annoyingly is absolutely perfect. There's an old. I don't know if you've ever heard of Mary Englebright I'm not sure of the younger generations have heard yeah, yeah, well, she just has this great, great artist rendering on it and it just says fine, I'm fine, everything's fine, everything's so fine.
Speaker 2:Everything's fine. Exactly. And you know, to be honest, like I found myself saying that so often and then at one point I was like no, it's not. Fine, you know what I mean. And I think when you can come to that part where you just admit it's not, I think it's healing in a way.
Speaker 1:It's so healing, it's so freeing, it's just knowing what to say in place of that, which is what I have found, most of us because we have been trained. I am 40 years in of following Jesus, raised in the evangelical movement, strong, hard and heavy, and you didn't say everything was not fine. You just did not. I'm a lot older, I think, and that's just not what you said, and so for me it was perplexing, and so I wanted to have you help us. Okay, so first you probably need to tell us your story, because it's a difficult one and we're both smiling, right, but your story is a very difficult one. Would you mind sharing a piece of that with us? Story is a very difficult one. Would you mind sharing a piece of that with us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. I wrote Everything Is Not Fine. I didn't want it to be just about my story, but what I do is when I write, I tell my story in kind of hopes that people can relate with their own. But Everything Is Not Fine, really focused on kind of twofold. The theme is like unending hardships, hardships where there's not like a way to fix it, a way to make it better, and unfortunately in life that's just the reality Sometimes, whether that be through death, whether that be through a pandemic, when we don't know when the end is coming, and the other part for me, so we. My son was diagnosed with a very rare medical condition called bacterial association.
Speaker 1:I've never heard of this.
Speaker 2:Can you tell?
Speaker 1:us the acronym VACRAL. I have an underlined circle. I'm like. I've heard of it a lot.
Speaker 2:I know and you know what I had to like write it down because it's so crazy, but it's like vertebrae anal renal C is cardiac E.
Speaker 1:I'm not even going to be able to tell it all I will tell everybody because really honestly I think it could be helpful.
Speaker 2:Okay, here we go. I wrote it down on another thing. Yeah, oh, did you write it down?
Speaker 1:I have it, yes. Vertebral defects anal atresia didn't have time to look up atresia. Cardiac defects what does that mean?
Speaker 2:I said oh, it means these poor children are born without a butt, a butthole, so I know, but not my son. So it's okay, keep going.
Speaker 1:Oh, dear Lord Jesus, okay, I know, wow. Cardiac defects, tracheoesophageal fistula, renal anomalies and limb abnormalities. Yes, and you write. Life sometimes throws us curve balls. And can we say your son's name? Cause it the fact that his name is prophetically brilliant.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, thank you. Yeah, it's shepherd, his name is shepherd Um, and which we love. And, yeah, and my daughter's name is Sunny. So they're both like subtle, subtle nods to Jesus, sunny.
Speaker 1:So they're both like subtle, subtle nods to trees up Like S O N N Y or S U N N.
Speaker 2:Y, it's S? U. Yeah, it's so adorable, I know, and she she's a firecracker, so, um, she's. It's an interesting juxtaposition, um. So anyway. So when Shepard, um, when he was in my womb, we found out he had a heart defect, um, which is so often that happens, you know, during that 20 week scan.
Speaker 2:So that for us, for the next breath of our pregnancy was just horrifying. We were like we don't know, we don't know what is going to happen. That was, you know, that was the how it all started. But then when he was six months old he sat up and he was very crooked and we're like, oh, maybe he has like torticollis or something with his muscles. So then we go in to get some scans and they're like no, he has spine, spinal cord, cranial, heart and renal defects as well. So it's super random and super interesting and everybody with bacterial has, like a different level of, you know, things that kind of pop up.
Speaker 2:But when we really received that diagnosis it was like right in the middle of the pandemic too, so we were sitting there with this child where we were lugging him two hours to specialists in Miami that we didn't know, like if he was going to be able to walk, like was he going to need emergency surgery, like was he going to be fine, and you know, and so what that was it is horrifying, horrifying and I would say that like, any degree of like something that is wrong with your child, whether they have a cold or anything like it doesn't have to be extreme as this.
Speaker 2:It can be something minor. It's so hard on our parent heart because that's how we're right, like we're horrified on a mama, doesn't matter how old they get either exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's just part of human nature, like we're created to protect our young and so anything you know can be hard, so it doesn't have to be extreme as this. But for us, I really was just facing like how to navigate, finding joy, finding peace, when there was so much unknown and there was no end. There was no end to the pandemic. I had no idea when that would end. We had no idea, um, and there was no end to my son's condition and they're still insane.
Speaker 2:So it's like, okay, this is what I've been given. I can either cry and hide for the rest of my life or I can try to find a way to have joy and to grow my strength, um, and it definitely. It's not something that you can just turn on and switch, and it's been quite a journey. But I just wanted to share my experience with that because I know so many other people are facing things similar, whether it is just kind of unpacking what we've lost during the pandemic, or whether it is a sick child or a job loss or trying to find a spouse or whatever it is. Sometimes things in life are not what we would have chosen for ourselves, so it's just about finding the Lord within that.
Speaker 1:Yes, finding that sacred space that you can actually hold. We in this community talk a whole lot about how we have to hold joy and sorrow and integrate it at the same time. I was not taught that, so it's just something very, very near and dear to my heart that I can be in the midst of trauma. You know, and one of the things that you say is you know, you had to actually then relive trauma, right? So this is what you know.
Speaker 1:Trauma is also a new word in our vocabulary the last 20 years, right, and it's a very big buzzword these days. But trauma is just anything that's too big for your the emotions are too big for your body to hold. I just love that. It's the simplest definition. And so you have to. You know, you've got to figure out we call it a window of tolerance as well how to get out of that hyper vigilant state of overwhelm. And then the pandemic is just we are in a state of overwhelm. So you not only had to go through the initial diagnosis, the initial surgeries, hand over Shep you call him Shep for a three-hour surgery and just sit and wait. And the doctor said what to you? Before you did that the first time he said something very shocking for a mama and daddy heart. I don't remember. Oh good, I'm so glad. So let me just bring up that trauma.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Just great, janelle, no, no, no. He just said, in other words, just pray for the best. We're not. We're not quite sure how this will go. We're not quite sure there's really. They didn't give you. This is going to be great, everything's going to be fine.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that with any surgery I don't know if it was necessarily the surgeon the surgeon who did my surgery she's a mom of four, and so that was so. Her empathy was off the charts, like. I was like I know what this is like, but we're going to do it anyway, and so I don't think in any necessarily words she might've said that specifically.
Speaker 1:But in the surgeon I'm reading my cues it was the anesthesiologist, so forgive me for the misnomer. What it says here is no parent should ever have to walk into a children's hospital and hand their tiny, precious fragile child over to an anesthesiologist and just hope and pray for the best they bring him back to you. So in that frame it was more something you felt.
Speaker 2:It's my inner dialogue, so what that? Was like that first time. So even before, we did end up having spinal cord surgery with Shepard, but the very first thing was a medic. It's a fully anesthesia MRI and he was six months old.
Speaker 2:And now I look back I'm like, oh, that was easy, like what we face now, but like just handing over your baby, who you know has a heart defect, who you know has like all these quirks, and being like, well, I hope he does well with anesthesia. Um, you don't know, yeah, I don't know, you don't. And so it's one of the worst, hardest things as a parent to just fully trust the word with the like of your child, like it's just, that's what it is. Um, like my mom would be like, why are you so worried? I'm like I'm worried he won't come back to me is what it really comes down to, and I don't think any parent should have to feel that way.
Speaker 2:Um, but that was the reality we were facing and that we would learn to face again and again, as he would have other procedures and things like that. So it is, um, it was definitely a crash course in like finding how we can get through that um as a couple, as parents, with our faith, and it was not easy and it was definitely a growing experience. But one thing I did learn through the process is that we are stronger than we think that we are, and so the Lord is stronger than we realize too. So, in terms of looking back, just seeing how he has brought us okay, we got through this and then we got through this next thing, and we got through this next thing um, we've grown so much in our faith, in our sense of peace, that the lord, you know, will have control over our situation. The lord has shepherd in his arms.
Speaker 2:Um. So, yeah, it was that. Inner dialogue was definitely something I was struggling with. Um, yeah, it was a very real thing. So just kind of navigating how you can still have faith within that very scary moment was definitely a learning curve.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and how old was Sunny at this time.
Speaker 2:Oh, she was like three when we first started everything. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so she's a vivacious three-year-old toddling around preschool or going all that, yeah, depending on where you live in life, you know preschool is defined differently, but I think in the States we would say she was a preschooler in a sense. Right so not really fully reasoning and understanding, but under feeling like really feeling, probably what you all were going through.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and there is a story I share in Everything Is Not Fine where there was so many nights during the pandemic especially early on too, when we had so many unknowns about Shepherd when I would just go to bed praying scripture, and I would just pray over and over. Let the Lord, or let the morning, bring me word of your unfilling love, for I come in trust of you and just praying for that peace that surpasses understanding. But there was one particular night when my anxiety was so bad and I was just praying let the morning bring me word of your unfeeling love, just over and over, until I finally fell asleep, and so it's a really funny story. The next morning we were getting up, we were just doing all the normal things that we have to still do, even though all this craziness is going on and we were getting ready for daycare.
Speaker 2:We were just kind of packing everything up and Sunny, three years old, was following me around, like right up behind me, and just singing over and over and over. I was like so annoyed and I was like what? But then all of a sudden I stopped and I realized what she was singing was Jesus loves me. This I know over and over and over and I was like, oh my goodness. First of all, the Lord is a sense of humor. Second of all, I had literally like been begging God to show me his love that morning so I could get through. And here was this little vivacious three-year-old reminding me again and again like Jesus loves me. This I know. Like that's all she knew. She just said that was it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and so what a prophecy right, I always think of that and I like to encourage people that, like, if you are having one of those nights where you are staring at the ceiling, where your heart is literally palpitating, that we can just cry out to god or not and just beg him to be like lord tomorrow, like help me get through. And it might not show up like a little three year old following you around, or might not show up, you know, but it could be like a perfect cup of coffee, a great night of sleep, like a text from a friend. You know the Lord can show up, and so I don't know. I just think that was just such a tangible, really funny way that God showed me that I think that the first thing I would say is that you stopped.
Speaker 1:So that to me, is like a very practical, tangible how do I keep going when it's ongoing and we're in this massive, long season of grace? Things aren't going to. You know, this is not going away. I think that's what's really pivotal goodness about your heart and your story here and the journey that you know Christ has had you on, because it's ongoing and so often we want it, depending on which circle you're in, you know, in the system of churches and denominations. You know it can be, it's not, it should go away, right, and yet the reality is it doesn't. It sometimes even gets worse.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely Right.
Speaker 1:So I think you're imaging to us in this story, awareness, and we in this community and in the work that I do, awareness is just everything. And so would you attribute that? Because I don't think in the moment you're like I just need to be aware, I need to stop. I need to be aware You're like this is annoying and then all of a sudden you would say maybe the Holy Spirit quickened that moment.
Speaker 2:Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, like that was just one of those moments and I call them like little mini modern day miracles.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not like you know, something like the sea splitting open, but I feel like those are little miracles where you just know in your whole heart and your soul like, okay, that was the Lord, just like very clearly speaking to me, and I think it's so important just to kind of keep our eyes and our hearts open for those. But yeah, that was definitely, definitely the Holy Spirit, and you know, there's been so many times since then too where things like that have happened. But I think it's so important to share those moments. People need to know. You know, sometimes they're like that can happen for them too.
Speaker 1:You know, sometimes they're like that can happen for them too, you know. So I call them everyday epiphanies, right, they're just epiphanies, they're like a light bulb, but we can precondition. Long, long time ago, in a MOPs community group that I shared in MOPs for like 25 years, and one woman asked me so I think I was teaching on Corrie ten Boom, who was a Holocaust survivor, right, the story um hiding place. And uh, she said, so, how do we train our kids for that? Like, how do you train your kids for a Holocaust, how do you train them for? And I was like, wow, I was still a young mama, you know. And I said, well, I do believe that you train them through your imaging of your journey, right, so, and you also train them by being aware and open to the spirit.
Speaker 1:So, with Corrie Ten Boom's family, papa Ten Boom was a clockmaker, so the family was very efficient, you know, and a million clocks and then a little shop and they would sit at the kitchen table every morning at 8.15. And we're talking, you know, it was probably dry. He just opened the big Bible and read from the Bible, you know. But that was a preconditioning, no doubt in my mind, for Corey and Betsy, the two sisters. You know, in their mind they had so much, like you're saying, you went to sleep, you put your head on the pillow with the word just flowing out of your mouth, right, you had the word stored in you.
Speaker 1:So, second putting the word, these are things that we can precondition our children and ourselves for. These, I mean, there's no other way. I put on my notes, holding the horror of such a diagnosis, and the humor and the hope that you offer. That's what you were holding at that time. You know, maybe not a whole lot of humor at that time, but your book is filled with moments of lightness, which I love, you know. I think that's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's no. Yeah, I definitely there's some of the hardest times in our life. Like my husband will use that moment to crack the funniest joke, and I always appreciate that because I feel like humor is very healing. So if you ever read any of my stuff, you're going to get some deep thoughts and you're going to get some real, real weird jokes too.
Speaker 1:But that's okay, it is. It's allow it to be there. It's permissible, right, it's not. You know, what I want to offer here in your story to my heart lifters, is that you can't lose that humor. It's like who said it? Einstein, somebody important said you know that you can't take your life too seriously, but when it is really serious, that's hard to do. When it is really serious, that's hard to do. So isn't it lovely that God partnered you with someone who could give that kind of levity?
Speaker 2:I guess Was it hard at first, or like did you kick back at it, or oh no, I mean I, if you knew my husband, he is very quiet and he's like a social introvert, so he's more introverted, but like when it's just us at home, I just think he has the funniest jokes.
Speaker 2:But I've always been like the loud, crazy one who, like I'll make jokes. Oh, like my closest friends know that, like something hard happens, we're probably going to laugh about it like two minutes later. Oh good, and it's not necessarily a coping mechanism, but I think it's just like sometimes, when you can laugh during a situation, it's like a little bit of lightness to your heart that you need just to keep you going Right. So I think that, whether it be, you know, like again, like during the pandemic, or when we're really dealing with things, I think like making like a conscious effort to try to have joy and lightness. That is just so important. It was just choosing happiness and when we all just wake up and choose it every day, like it's right, like oh no, talk to us, katie.
Speaker 1:Talk to us. No, it is not. No If.
Speaker 2:I choose. If I could just choose it, I would always choose it. So what I do say you can fight for it and you can like, intentionally like, really like, carve out like that space in your life for that lightness and joy, even when things are kind of swirling around you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I absolutely couldn't agree with you more. I have depression myself and I know you cannot pray it away. You know you can't choose. Just okay, I'm just be happy. Right now it's there and if it's chemically induced, like if there is a real imbalance in your life, you can't pray that away. You cannot choose to make that different. You've got to get help and you've got to once again put these tools in your life and surround yourself. Okay, right now I need the tool of intention. You know like you were very intentional when you laid your head on the pillow. That is just such a beautiful image. I mean, that's David anguish crying out to God Like if you don't show up tomorrow, I don't know, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think intention is very generous. It's probably more desperation, desperation yeah, I think so, but I really do feel, oh, my necklace fell, and I think that's an interesting imagery too, because, um, towards the end of everything is not fine. I talk about like right before. So shepherd ended up having to have spinal cord surgery, which, um, was horrifying to me. I was at to that point, we had been so blessed to be able to avoid anything major, you know. But we had the big, hard, scary thing and it came on very suddenly and I had, like, I called to schedule and it's like, okay, they'll probably like schedule in like four months. And she's like, how about Tuesday? And I was like, oh dear god, it was like, so we settled for like three weeks, like like emotionally, whatever.
Speaker 2:With that, I just remember feeling like I'm an absolute bottom right, like and that's when I'm coming back to that feeling of like desperation and like all I could do. For the couple of weeks leading up to it, um, I played like the same playlist all the time of like really hopeful worship songs constantly, because that's all I have to do. Um, I just like had like really intentional time with my family. We tried to have as much fun as we possibly could. But I just remember feeling like at that time it was the same, like I was desperate for the Lord to get me through every single day, and what was so beautiful is that he did. And so, like I just remember feeling like I was at the absolute bottom of my bucket and then that Jesus was like so clearly there with me in that moment. And it's so cool because, like now, like when things are calmer or whatever, um, you know, but life is still life. Um, I can look back. I remember that feeling of being like I have to do something I do not want to do.
Speaker 2:I have no other option, but God was right there with me, and so I know that he will be again, no matter whatever we face next, and so it was a really beautiful thing, but it's definitely more desperation. I'm always more like please, god, help me, because I can't do it by myself.
Speaker 1:Yes, or even speechless. I mean, my daughter had to have brain surgery when she was 20. And then this 2022, she had another two massive surgeries and then this year, another emergency surgery. And you know my song, I do and and my song of the year in 2022, when Spotify gives you your, you know your, your thing. It was like peace, be still. I know I played that 5 million times on repeat Just okay, okay, okay, on repeat, just okay, okay, okay, uh-huh, okay. But what can you put into words? I so want to help all of us in these desperate moments when we feel God is a million miles away. But you said I felt him. He was in the bottom of the bucket with me. What did you feel? Can you put sensory imagery around that? Or was that hope to okay? What did it feel like? Was it just a deep inner knowing? Was it?
Speaker 2:Really interesting question and I love that like having to describe that, um, you know, like it was just peace in my heart at a time where there should have been anything but peace. Right, okay, it was just like getting up in the morning and being able to get through the day when I felt like I should have just been hiding under my comforter all day, right.
Speaker 1:And many do, though Many do.
Speaker 2:That's why there were days, yeah, and there was days when I did, but, like you know, like just I felt it felt like God was keeping me upright, when everything logically in my brain was like you should be kaputza right now, you know, you should be just on the ground in a puddle of misery, and it was a really beautiful thing. So that's what it felt like, just kind of like that peace that surpasses understanding, which I love that, and that was a friend, that for my friends. I'm praying that, no matter what, you know, anyone is coming through, because I felt that peace before. Like you wake up and you're like I feel okay today and I really shouldn't. You know what.
Speaker 1:I mean yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And I almost feel guilt, Like sometimes I would be like I shouldn't feel this way. People are going to wonder, like is she really processing this, or?
Speaker 2:is she?
Speaker 1:just oblivious and I'm like but God showed up, Whether it was a janitor. You know, I'd come out of the elevator during a long decade experience with my mom's illness, after illness and walking out of an elevator, and there's this beautiful janitor who's just girl. God is going to show up and show out for you today. I didn't know her, she didn't know me, but there was an angel I just know. I know she was an angel. I'm like who are you? Who are you?
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, I know and that's like those are like one of those like little mini miracles right, when you're so firm that, like the Lord is, he's there and he's working in in such surprising ways, whether it be a janitor or a three-year-old singing and whatever.
Speaker 1:So yeah, or a doctor's name meaning peace, like I remember this beautiful Indian doctor. We were trying to do this incredibly difficult test to my mom. It had to be like right at the moment and they have to whisk her away. One of those millisecond you got to catch it, which meant I had to be at her bedside waiting for that millisecond and he leaned over to do her heart and I said that's such a beautiful, interesting name. What does it mean? He goes faith and trust and I went oh, that's so sweet, that's nice. Glad to hear it, great. No, but it was like, oh my gosh, your mother named you that for me the moment you were born. I know right, absolutely, it was all about me. It was all about me. Thank you for sharing that, because that's what matters.
Speaker 1:You write sometimes there are no guaranteed outcomes. I think that's what I am taking away. You know, when I read a book, there's typically sometimes a million takeaways and then I take one. You know that it's like I'm adding it to my toolbox and putting it in my heart. And there sometimes are no guaranteed outcomes. Where did that come from? From your deep struggle? Do you remember the moment where you thought that I'm asking you some deep questions.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no, I love it. I mean, if I'm going to write a book like this, I better be able to talk about it, right, I'll tell you where it came from when I talk about things like this. So when I talked about this in my first book, it was a death of a friend, is what it is. Because I feel like death is something that cannot be changed, cannot be fixed, like, yes, I will see you again in heaven. Thank you, lord.
Speaker 2:All those good things, but then I have a very long time to live without my best friend, right and so and we're very young, very young, yeah, 19 years old it happened and so that was very much, um, a crash course in like, okay, you, you can't fix everything, you can't commandeer everything. Sometimes things do not go in a way that you want, but then after that, like finding joy again in my life and still being able to like trust in the Lord was such a beautiful thing. And so so often when I was dealing with Shepard's illness, which is something that we cannot change, we cannot fix, we can't, you know, it is for life I think of that because it's the same situation. It's like there's nothing I can do to fix this. So what do we do with that? You know and like and that's and we're. I'm so blessed Like we're so blessed with Shepard, like he's fine.
Speaker 2:Like everything is not fine, but he is fine, so cute he's. So he's so darling. By the way, he is darling but he is like I'm so much like how easy and me and my son are like he's annoying he's a child in.
Speaker 1:Yes, mom, you can say that I know.
Speaker 2:But, um, yeah, so it was that unfortunately losing someone and so many people have gone through that, yeah, you can't fix that, you can't change that. And so I think that it kind of really places your heart in a different kind of position to be like OK, so, so what then? And so it's like we can't change this, we can't fix this. This is not what we would have planned for our son, you don't know.
Speaker 1:And because that's a death of a dream, then too, right. So anytime you get a diagnosis with a child, it involves a death of a parental dream. We all have our dreams. Whether we admit it or not, they're there and we have our hopes, what our family will look like, what our family will go hiking. We'll do this. Whatever our family's involved in and this affects Sunny too, it's a big deal. Yes, it does. And that's involved in. Yeah, and this affects sunny too.
Speaker 2:It's a big deal, you know yes, it does, and that's something I think as she gets older too. Like I'm really praying for you because she's so much more aware now. Like I'll always buy her like a gift at the hospital too, like you're right that's where we're actually seven.
Speaker 2:But I like you saying that because, um, so many times, um, when we have found a diagnosis, um, or like we've realized that, because so many times when we have found a diagnosis, or like we've realized that. Okay, so now this summer we're going to have to do kidney surgery. Every time we get like a little bit of news like that, it's a little grief, right, and I think it would be a lot of grief.
Speaker 1:I do, I mean, I know for myself.
Speaker 2:It's like not again, Not again, yeah, and so because you know what it involves, oh yeah, we know what it involves and it's not fun. But what my husband Kyle and I like? I think that we've really kind of gotten to this good rhythm of like, let's say, we go to his urologist and he's like, okay, you need to have the surgery. We know to leave the space for the next couple of days to grieve.
Speaker 2:We're just going to be sad, good good and so we just like and I think it's important for people like when they're facing something that is hard just take the time to feel those feelings. Thank you, it'll get a little bit lighter in a couple of days, but it's just been like with every little thing, we just have been very intentional about taking that time to grieve. Sometimes it's 24 hours, sometimes it's like a week, depending on what it is, um, but I think kind of just processing through and feeling those is so important. Um, there was I also talk about and everything is not fine how I started boxing with my friend and it was fabulous. Well, you know it was like. You know it was like a week.
Speaker 2:Get it out, get it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was during that when I realized that there was so much from the first couple of years of Shepard's life I hadn't grieved and I hadn't thought about it, and when I was literally punching that punching bag, I was like, oh my, I got this stuff Right.
Speaker 2:And so now I know that if you don't let it out it's just gonna fester, um, and so I think it's just important for everyone to give themselves space to feel those feelings a little bit, even though it's not fun. But if you feel them, you know you can be stand up a little bit stronger afterwards. So, and it was honestly surprising and since then too, I've heard like it's called like a stress cycle and you need to close the stress cycle, like a lot of scientists or anything like that. But that's kind of what it is. It's like your body goes into fight or flight and you kind of complete that cycle so you can kind of go back to like your baseline level of like balance. And I realized that after boxing and all that that so many stress cycles were still left open.
Speaker 1:I think I'm very intuitive and very empathic, so I feel things very deeply and I don't get it out of my system. So I'm so appreciative that you just imaged that for us and gave us another reminder of how critical that tool is to, even in the times when you are feeling the most depressed or the most vexed or anguished. This is lament that you're feeling. You know this is deep. It's somehow either. Have I was going to ask you too, like an accountability partner, do you have how did you, I'm sure, boy, get it out Janelle the community effect for you? Did you have? How did that play into your journey?
Speaker 2:That is such a lovely question, so I am super grateful to have a lovely church community and it basically comes down to a group text message chat with other moms. There's like probably like 10 of us on there right now. Beautiful. It's literally like every other text, like pray for me, pray for me. Like not for me, not for everybody, um, but like those ladies you know, like if I'm having a day when I'm like I'm waking up and I'm like a lot of times now, like you went back to trauma, like I really do think that I have some medical trauma just from everything we've been through, so like I have no doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even if he has like the most boring appointment coming up, like I'm like, oh no, you know what I mean, I know exactly what you mean, so whatever. So I just, and I'm just I pray or I text my friends. I'm like girls like we have this appointment, um, my heart is like all over the place. Just just pray, you know.
Speaker 2:And I think, and they do, and we do for each other and I do for them from certain things too. So I think having people like that, where you can be super honest and open with your feelings, is just so important and I do think that like just praying for each other you know what I mean it's just like it's so simple but it's so needed. And there's been times, too, when like I've woken up and been like I don't know how I'm going to get through this day and like I text my friends and I'm like guys just pray for me today, like I'm so scared, you know, and things go better than I thought and like I do feel stronger and like lighter and so, and I do feel like the Lord working through their prayers too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can't heal, it's proven. We don't heal in isolation, we have to have community. So once again I'm going to ask. So we haven't really talked a lot about medical trauma on the show, but I'm going to add a little bit of teaching here, just because I know, I've experienced it and my daughter and it's. You know, it's a real thing Medical anxiety, what, what happens when? Just so people can learn and grow from you, because I have no doubt that, especially women, my age, when you have to go get a mammogram or you have to go get this test, or I have a rare achalasia, I have a rare esophageal disease, I don't want to have another surgery, I don't want to go through that. So there is. What did that feel like for you and if you can maybe help us learn you've already said you had your, your community praying for you what can we enact, I guess? What can we put in place in those moments? How did that feel for you and what did you do to move through it?
Speaker 2:that's a really good question and, honestly, to be honest, I feel like I'm just still processing it yeah, I'm sure and will be. Yeah and will be, because so last summer was his spinal cord surgery and then, like this summer, we have kidney and then now we have boobs, which seems minor, but, like I said, with parents, anything is yeah it all sucks like it really at the hospitals, all of the things the smells, but I know, and at the heart of it is because your child.
Speaker 2:You don't want your child to suffer, of course, and so I don't. I think it is something that I am still thinking about. Um, I am like, should I go back to therapy for this?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I was gonna ask you are you doing therapy? Do you have you done therapy? I was gonna ask, and if, and? If so, what kind?
Speaker 2:In my first book to um the gap decade. So I do talk about my first experience with therapy, which was a lot of. It was dealing after the death of my friend um, which of course I didn't go until like a decade later, right, because, like of course, cause.
Speaker 1:you're strong, I can do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like when you're young, it's like when I was 19 and then like you're graduating college and then you're getting married and then you're like doing all this and all of a sudden you're like whoa, and you need to like stop and look back and process Right, because otherwise you know that stress level is definitely not close. So, definitely, therapy was such a huge part of dealing with that and I did do some too before surgery last year. But I think now it's like I don't know, you know, like there's no sure answer. I think that right now in our personal life, we're just kind of going through things as they come up and trying to do the best we can. But I know that, like for me personally, I get to a spot where I'm like, okay, I need to talk to somebody about this, or I need something because I'm not feeling like myself, and I think that is an important thing to recognizing yourself.
Speaker 2:If that's part of your journey too, so yeah, but this summer, like when we are going to be approaching his kidney surgery, I'm definitely going to be like implementing the same things that I talked with the therapist last summer, like surrounding myself with that music every day, like I know what church is going to be praying for us, um, and praying for shepherd, of course, um, so just kind of like I don't know, like all those little things that I learned last summer, I'm going to be doing again, um, and just hoping that like I'll feel stronger this time, because we have been through it before, um, but even though you have it doesn't make it easier, because we have been through it before, but even though you have it doesn't make it easier.
Speaker 2:So one thing about everything is not fine is a woman I connected with online who her son is the same age as mine and he also has that girl, and she was just posting, like it was like his birthday or something, and she posted. You know, like it's been a hard journey, it doesn't get easier, but I can get used to it, and I thought that was really profound, because I'm like you're right, like it's not going to get easier for me as a mom to take my son to the hospital and check him in and put him in a gown, Like it's not ever going to get easier.
Speaker 2:but I can get more used to it and I can get stronger, so I can be stronger for him. That's it, you know what I mean it's still going to hurt. It's still going to hurt, it's still going to suck, suck, but I can do it. So.
Speaker 1:If people say are you okay? No, everything's not fine, but it will be fine, is that a good way to say that?
Speaker 2:I think so, yeah, and I mean I think that, like, what do we find is like being fine, right? Yeah, exactly, it might not be like a change of outcome, but like what, I, what can we trust in? Yes, that god will be with us, that god, that god has shown up for us before and he will do it again. That's it, I know. So I think that, like, if the circumstance can't be fixed, then like, like, what do we put our trust in? And that's just Jesus.
Speaker 1:And it's not just a Sunday school answer anymore for you.
Speaker 2:No, it's real.
Speaker 1:It's real. We really have to put our trust only in him. But that's a lesson hard learned.
Speaker 1:And that's spiritual maturity. I want to close with you. You write a great deal about how we have to offer ourselves self-compassion, and I know that. I know that is not something that has been well taught either. How do you do that in these moments? You have imaged it to us already. But just in closing, maybe just another thought or two on listen. If you are in a no guaranteed outcome situation, how can you offer yourself self-compassion to not be so hard on yourself Because you were being hard on yourself.
Speaker 1:I shared that story before we started with our beautiful heart lifters. How your friend Kelsey gave you some beautiful words.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah, that actually is such a good illustration, especially when you grew up in the Christian faith, right, like evangelical culture, like you know, like oh, we're supposed to expect it to be such like a huge pillar of faith, and just like, and I wanted that, like I wanted that because I wanted to inspire people and I do, like I genuinely care about that. But at that moment in my life, like that's not where I was at, like I was more at like help me get through the day. And I was telling my friends, like you said before, that like I was just talking to her and I was like I just wish I was stronger and she goes, maybe this is strong when you have to fully, like lean on God. You know like that takes strength too right, and so like, if that's where you're at, that's where you know like that takes strength too Right, and so like, if that's where you're at, that's where you're at Like, now, as we approach this next surgery, like I do feel like I'll probably be able to stand up a little bit stronger.
Speaker 2:I'll be less weepy, like whatever Cause, like we've grown so much over the past year. Um, but I think that just relying, just knowing that, like you're so relying on the lord like is strong in itself, and so you know, like I think I've been really conscious about trying to shed off any of these like things we're supposed to feel or what we learned growing up when, like you mentioned depression before, I also had depression, or I also had depression and anxiety, and so I had to unlearn that, like if I take medicine, that doesn't mean I'm not fully trusting in the Lord, lord have mercy, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:And that was a lesson I learned in my 20s.
Speaker 1:But like I was in, my 40s and they had told me in my 20s. So that's how strong, that's how strong that message of you shouldn't take that.
Speaker 2:I know, but like thank.
Speaker 1:God that I can see myself again.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like having to unlearn some of those thoughts that we've been taught in Christian culture especially. Just like looking to the Lord and how he freaks us, like what he says about us in the Bible you know what I mean and just like trying to like remind yourself of that, that he's not asking us to struggle and strive and do all these things. He's just asking for us to like give our heart to him fully and trust him fully. He'll wrap his arms around you and if that's like where you're at in that moment, great, you know what I mean so yeah it's unlearning bad things that we've taught for ourselves before, and it's never like easy, just to shut that off.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's always empowering, but it's not easy. That's what I say.
Speaker 2:It's never easy.
Speaker 1:For me it's not easy, you know I just it's my, my retraining and my unlearning. I'm so happy you said unlearning, because that is such a huge facet of what we have to do. We have to unlearn that, looking, I always say strength has many bases.
Speaker 2:You don't know what's coming right and like it could be a life of you know ease, or it could be like the whole of us, like you said, like at a very extreme level, but that is like what can you control and that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a beautiful new show on National Geographic. I'll just give it a little plug. I don't get anything from it, but it's called A Small Light and it's the story of Anne Frank. But it's told from Miep M-I-E-P's perspective, because Miep was the one that hid the Frank family.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, okay yes.
Speaker 1:So Anne's just like a very small, just not at all from her perspective, but to see it from Meep's perspective, and the risk that they had to take of hiding the Jews. So once again it's just really fresh in my mind and it's told so well and I've read the book about Meep too that you know all of us, all of us, will face moments of really hard struggle. So thank you for writing the book. I bet you could add so much to it now, having gone through that spinal surgery and now this kidney surgery. So I look forward to your next book, my new friend, Katie, Thank you, Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Today, heartlifter, be sure to meet me over on Substack at Heartlift Central or on Instagram at Janelle Rairdon, where we will keep this conversation going. We'll talk more about self-compassion, about inner dialogue, about medical anxiety and trauma, dialogue about medical anxiety and trauma and about the stress cycle. Katie Schnack brought out so many beautiful things for us to think about as we are moving through these trying, difficult days in our world. Until next time,
