Today's Heartlift with Janell

349. St. Nicholas and the Practice of Generous Love

• Janell Rardon • Episode 349

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A storm-tossed sky lantern lands in a front yard with a daughter’s message to her dad, and a simple response turns into a global moment of shared grief and hope. That story becomes our gateway into the real Saint Nicholas—an early Christian bishop who noticed the vulnerable, met practical needs with courage, and quietly changed lives in a collapsing empire.

We sit down with author and screenwriter Matt Mikalatos to explore his devotional, Praying with Saint Nicholas, and the surprising history behind a figure too often flattened into myth. From Patara to Myra, we step through persecution under Diocletian, the pivot of Constantine, and the Council of Nicaea, where core beliefs were hammered out amid risk and conviction. We revisit the famous dowry rescue that inspired stockings, the confessor tradition that modeled reconciliation after failure, and the gripping moment Nicholas halted an unjust execution—mercy with a spine of steel.

Threaded through it all is a practical Advent invitation: become a noticer. Pair 1 John 4:7–21 with small daily acts that restore dignity in your neighborhood. Slip generosity where it’s needed, listen deeply to someone who feels invisible, and choose sustainable compassion that protects your mental health while expanding your capacity to love. We also clear up confusion around venerating saints, reframing it as asking trusted elders in the great cloud of witnesses to pray with us, not instead of us.

If you’re longing for an Advent that feels grounded, historic, and fiercely hopeful, this conversation offers both story and structure. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs encouragement, and leave a one-sentence review to help others find the show. Your voice helps carry this light further.

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SPEAKER_01:

A reading from Praying with Saint Nicholas, a Christmas devotional by Matt Mikelatos. Chapter 1. A Prayer for the Future. Theophanes and Nona had everything a person could want. A loving relationship, a deep spiritual life, a high social standing, and the respect of the city. More money than they could spend in their lifetime. But they wrestled with unhappiness and dissatisfaction. They wanted more than anything. A child of their own. They prayed for a child, but their prayers, it seemed, went unanswered. Even when they promised God that they would dedicate their child to God's service. Worried that their hearts might become hardened by this unanswered prayer, Theophanes and Nona started a practice that would become a habit of their lives. They began to seek out the poor and downtrodden of the town and provide for them. If they couldn't have a child, at least, at least, they could care for those around them. As they turned their lives toward the poor, they found that their sadness about not having a child lessened over time. When Nona did become pregnant, they were surprised, shocked, and overjoyed. They immediately made good on the promises they had made in their prayers. They named the boy Nicholas after the local Christian abbot, who was either Theophanes or Nona's brother, we're not sure which, with the idea that young Nicholas, like his uncle, would grow into a man who dedicated his entire life to God. Hello and welcome to today's Heart Lift with Janelle. I am Janelle, your guide for this beautiful Advent season. We are making our way towards Christmas, and I grabbed a cup of something hot and delicious, as it's very chilly here in Virginia today. It is a beautiful decaf Hot Cinnamon Spice by Harney and Sons, and I'm telling you, it is delicious. Nothing better for an afternoon kapa. We're beginning a beautiful journey through Praying with Saint Nicholas, a Christmas devotional written by the one and only Matt Mikelados. I had the distinct honor and privilege of sitting with Matt and talking about this gorgeous, gorgeous book about one of my favorites, Saint Nicholas. When my children were littles, I taught them all about the saints behind the celebrations. And sure, we had a lot of fun with Santa Claus, but I loved teaching them about Saint Nicholas. And Matt has written, oh, just a beautiful account of the life of Saint Nicholas. And I don't want to rush through it, so I've decided to spend all this month reading about Saint Nicholas, talking about uh his beautiful life and mission and the work that he did, and how we can relate that to the lives that we are living today. If you haven't already, I want to encourage you to grab up your very own the great Glimmer Hunt Advent PDF. It is free and it's waiting for you over on my website, JanelleRayron.com. Just click that button and you will see a pop-up. And you just download the free PDF. It's a beautiful, stunning guide. I created it myself for you so that you could have an Advent Glimmering Hunt. Now, along this hunt, we are also going to be reading 1 John 4 verses 7 through 21. You will see at the end of the guide a calendar with the scripture of the day. You can print that, cut it up, put it on your refrigerator, or make a beautiful little banner out of it. Be creative. It's the season for creativity, for whimsy and magic and beautiful things. Well, you might ask, Janelle, why 1 John 4, 7 through 21? Well, if you are part of our Heartlift Central community, you know that I have been spending quite a bit of time in this passage in the New Testament over the last few years. I've been on a journey to really grasp and fully understand the love that God has for me. And for you. And so I did. And it has been a life-altering portion of Scripture full of wisdom and truth. And when we can grasp the love that God has for us individually, and then corporately as a community of faith followers, it is life-changing. It has love changes. Everything is love changes. And in my experience on my life journey, I have found finding and probably will always find that loving another human being is perhaps the most challenging thing we'll ever, ever be invited to do. And I also believe that it's imperative that we learn how to love others well. And that starts, yes, with loving God, because God is love. And then in loving God, he shows us our value, our worth, and our dignity. And when we embrace how much he loves us, it really changes everything. So we're gonna be going through first John 4, 7 through 21 here on the podcast, on HeartLip Central on Substack and on Instagram. So please engage, please subscribe. First subscribe to the podcast, of course, and leave a review. I am begging you today on this giving Tuesday, this international day that uh gives itself to the beautiful radical generosity of the human spirit, if you would be so kind to subscribe and review the podcast wherever you listen, be it Apple, Spotify, my platform is BuzzSprout. I post it to Substack. Wherever you subscribe or wherever you listen to music and podcast, please subscribe to today's Heartlift with Janelle and leave a review. One sentence is all that this podcast needs to expand its horizons. It's everything. Second on this giving Tuesday, I am just asking you out of the kindness of your heart and out of your radical generosity, if perhaps you would give a small donation to the podcast, either on BuzzSprout, you'll see it in the show notes. It just says um support the show. Click on that,$1,$3,$5. Whatever you can give will help this podcast expand its reach. We are under the covering of Heartlift International, My501c3. And my 501c3 is a nonprofit absolutely dedicated to bridging the gap between faith and mental health and bringing resources, the podcast, information, teaching, counseling, coaching to the families in our communities so that every child born into this world can receive a safe, secure place in which to grow. That is the ultimate goal. We're taking baby steps, and every day is another baby step. It takes a while for some of us to learn to walk as children, doesn't it? So I'm just taking a moment today to thank you in advance. Thank you for all of you who have already given of your very hard-earned money to support me and the work of my hands. I appreciate it so much. Before we begin our conversation with Matt, I want to tell you a little about him. Matt is an author, a screenwriter, and a former missionary who lives in the Portland, Oregon area with his wife and three daughters. He's the co-author of Praying with St. Patrick with Aaron Burns and the award-winning Loving Disagreement with Kathy Kang. You will also hear Matt and I talk about his book, Sky Lantern, which is an extraordinary story of a seeming miracle that happened in Matt's own yard. Matt is a creative, extraordinaire, and it it's just such an honor to have him here on the show. So will you please welcome Matt Heartlifters to the show? Oh, Heartlifters, are you ready? Buckle up, buckle up. It's Christmas time, and we are going to be talking about praying with Saint Nicholas, a Christmas devotional written by the one and only Matt Michelotus. Oh, Matt, I forgot to ask you how to say your last name.

SPEAKER_02:

That's that's correct. Yeah, that's how we say it anyway. Well, it's Greek, but we live in the US, and it was my grandfather who came over. And so that's our best guess. That's how we say it.

SPEAKER_01:

Matt Michelotus.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Look at you, you're Greek. As was St. Nicholas.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct. That's true.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, heartlifters, we've been having way too much fun. Sorry you're not in on it. You are now, though. Um, Matt is an incredible, incredible creative, and I have already told you about all the things he does. But today we're gonna talk about St. Nicholas. But Matt. But before we get started, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your second book? Sky lantern? Fourth, third, fourth, fifth.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't remember what number it was, but yeah, it was sure. I'd love to talk about Sky Lantern.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, Sky Lanterns just take my breath away. And today, my sweet little Elena Rose, you all know, my three-year-old, three and a half-year-old uh granddaughter, lives in Belgium, and at their school they were having a lantern festival in honor of St. Martin. So I thought I have to ask Matt today why you wrote this book. I know the premise, but I can't even believe that's like almost unbelievable that someone's Sky Lantern landed in your front yard.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Um my wife sometimes calls me the weird magnet. She says strange things always happen to us when we're out and about.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh familiar.

SPEAKER_02:

And then it just was one of them. So this uh this someone sent a sky lantern, uh, which, you know, it's just it's a little paper balloon, sort of, that you light a fire under it and it it rises into the air. And it landed in my front yard uh during a really terrible storm, actually. And I thought it was trash. I went out to get it and I picked it up, and written on it was, you know, uh dad, I miss you so much, and then a heart and this woman's name Steph. And I was so struck, I have three daughters. I was so struck. I was just struck to the heart by it. And I still threw it away, which I shouldn't have, I should have kept it. But I went and I wrote a letter that night that I put online that just talked about Steph as a father. I don't know what your whole situation is, but if he was a good father, he loved you, uh, he was proud of you, and he wanted good things for your life. Put this letter up, didn't think anything of it, just was sharing what I was feeling. I went to bed that night, and when I got up the next morning, it had tens of thousands of shares on it. Was traveling around the world. I had no idea, actually. I I found out because my my middle daughter came downstairs. I was doing the dishes and like gave me a hug and looked like she'd been crying. I was like, What is what is going on? And then I went upstairs and my wife was sitting on our bed and she was crying. I was like, What's happening? And she goes, Everyone's everyone's sharing your letter. Uh so we read it this morning. I was like, Oh. And so, yeah, a number of people, I mean, I actually took, I think, two weeks off work, which I was a minister at the time, so it was flexible and just answered letters from people writing me about their dialogue. Yeah, it was amazing. And then through a series of events, it's a long story, but uh uh eventually the woman staff, we got in touch with each other. Uh, incredible person. We're still in touch today. And uh goodness. Yeah, it's quite a story, an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Right in your front yard.

SPEAKER_02:

Right in our front yard.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you so you have to get that book, Heart Lovedress, because it's an inspirational book. And I think that would also be a great addition when you give away the St. Nicholas book to give Sky Lantern with it. Because I just think what it says to me, Matt, what really got to me, because I'm always trying to think, I am I'm in a very huge transitional phase in my life again. Christmas is approaching and advent, and I think, okay, what can be different this year? What perhaps can I focus on or offer this advent and Christmas season that perhaps is in line with where I am in my life? And I when you you just said it, you know, it they call you the weird magnet. I definitely um am a magnet, and sometimes you want to be and sometimes you don't. But I think what's happening, at least in my senses, my time with God, is we really need a lot more magnets in the world that are bringing people to light, to joy, to hope, because there is an awful lot of darkness. And so I just love the fact that a sky lantern showed up in the front yard.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, it's like it's one of those moments. My my wife really has a gift of faith, and I have the gift of just arguing with God, I think, a lot of times and being cynical about various things.

SPEAKER_01:

You did for a lot though. You were a pastor, minister.

SPEAKER_02:

That's part of it for sure. But my wife is so amazing. She's the one that reminds me when I'm like, I don't know, you know, what's really going on. She's like, You think God had nothing to do with that lantern landing in your yard? Is and and that's those moments where it's not, it's not really a weird magnet, right? It's this openness to the opportunities that God is placing in front of us. I could have taken that same thing, had a feeling about my kids and gone, oh, I love those guys, and just thrown that thing away uh and just gone about my day. And that that wouldn't have been, I don't think it would have been sinful. It would have just been missing an opportunity. Um I think that's right. Yeah. And we have those every day. We have them uh with our waiters and waitresses. We have them as we're going about our day, we have them with our families, uh, our neighbors. And yeah, I think most of us miss a bunch of them in any given week. And hopefully we we see and latch onto a few of them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, it's like Andy Andrews, the brilliant writer himself, when he wrote the book, The Noticer. You know, I think that it's it's not that I want to, because I'm so empathic. We should, we were talking about that before I can record. I can get really worn out from that. But I think I think it is the it's just the opportunity, the openness to bring joy and light somewhere. And so many women, particularly women my age, many of you heartlifters know this, feel invisible, they feel purpose less. You feel as though you don't matter, and that what what's what's you know, what am I just a babysitter for the grandkids now? What am I just a drop-off station? I've heard your comments, and yet I have recently found renewed vigor in doing some silent things that are really blessing people.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Just blowing their mind, you know. Maybe I have a 20 in my pocket, I don't know, or something. Just something just those small, little, seemingly ridiculous little things.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But yeah, that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

I think when we get to heaven, that is going to be more of an emphasis than the really great things that we think we're doing. At least that's what's going on inside of my heart, which is newly back in rhythm.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's great.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness. So Saint Nicholas, why did you write this book? Where did this book come from? This beautiful book, by the way.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Um, I love Christmas. I've always loved Christmas. And I was thinking about Saint Nicholas and realizing that I didn't know that much about him for it being kind of this favorite figure uh from that I knew maybe two stories. And I so when I started doing the research, I realized that I knew two stories, but I actually knew them wrong, also.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And I was then I was endlessly fascinating. The more I dug into it, I was like, this is an incredible human being who did some amazing things. And almost everything he did, what he's famous for is exactly what you were just talking about, Janelle, which was he notices he noticed the needs of vulnerable people around him orphans, children, women, and he tried to meet those needs. That that's what he was famous for, and it's what he's famous for so many centuries later.

SPEAKER_03:

I know.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, which is incredible that this person we think so highly of, it's mostly because he lived a life of kind of taking care of the small, not always small, but the the needs of the people around him.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, he did. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, my kids called it Santa Fax because I would emerge from doing research. Yeah, they would be like hashtag Santafax, dad's about to tell us something else about St. Nicholas, and I'd be like, Yeah, I am. Get ready. This is a crazy one. Like, for instance, I so when you first picture Saint Nicholas, if you're like me, I pictured him kind of in medieval times. Uh, a lot of the stories have this kind of medieval feeling to them that he's in Europe somewhere, traipsing around. And so when I discovered that he lived during the Roman Empire, right, and that he was born in the country we would now call Turkey, and that he was Greek, I was like, wait a minute, what is going on?

SPEAKER_01:

This is not Jolly O'Connor.

SPEAKER_02:

Like he's he's a yeah, he's a relatively early in the spread of the church. He's the church, a lot of I mean, church buildings became a thing during his lifetime, uh, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, he ruled at the time, what uh fourth century. Yep, right, and that was most of us know that was the era of Constantine. But before Constantine, you tell me, tell me where he was born. It's in the book, but just for some reference.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so he he is born uh in in uh Patara, which is a little seaside town in what is now uh Turkey. His family is probably well off. Uh all of the tradition is that they were a relatively rich kind of merchant family. And uh yeah, it's 270, I think. Yeah, 270, March 15th, 270 AD.

SPEAKER_00:

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02:

So his mom and dad are both believers, and Christianity at this time is not is not what we would think of it today. So there aren't church buildings as such. Most people are still meeting in homes of some sort, including probably in Nicholas's home because of his family's status. His uncle is a priest, so we do have the beginning of kind of a religious class. Yeah. And and his uncle's name, by the way, is Nicholas. He's named after his uncle. And but what you have to understand about the Roman Empire is it's on the verge of collapse at this time.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

The there are multiple competing people saying that they're the emperor. Uh, there are the beginnings of famines because uh the roads aren't safe to travel anymore. The and it's a it's a community that has become dependent on each other, as most empires are. And so we're seeing a lot of disease, war, all these things happening around them. And the the Christians are starting to get a reputation of the people who show up in the midst of those things. And Nicholas's mother in particular was well known as someone who used her free time to make sure that people had food.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh. I love that story.

SPEAKER_02:

So, yeah, incredible stuff going on. But by so by this is where things are when Nicholas starts. A little later in his life, a guy named Diocletian becomes emperor, and he starts saying, What happened to the good old days? No one worships the Roman Empire or the Roman gods like they should. It's probably the Christians' fault. And he starts throwing people in jail, cutting people's tongues out, destroying holy books, destroying some of the new churches. Um, so Nicholas ends up spending several years in jail during this time because he's a priest by then. Uh and but then by the end of his life, we've gone from the Christians being blamed for everything to the rise of Constantine, who's kind of the first Christian emperor who says the whole Roman Empire is going to be Christian. And by the end of his life, Nicholas is a bishop and he's being sent money by the Roman Empire to take care of the poor in his city, to make sure the streets are fine, to watch over people. He probably had to fight pirates. Like that was part of his job. As the he was kind of a the bishops became sort of governor, they weren't the actual governors, but they became like the governors and had a lot of power and influence.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And in the midst of all this, Nicholas is someone who is faithful to God during the times of persecution as well as during the times of plenty. And there are real pitfalls on both sides.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

But he manages to pull it off. And because consistently, over and over, his focus is on what are the needs of the people around me and how do I help them.

SPEAKER_01:

I know. The most vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

He's doing the true work of God, isn't he? The widows, the children.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And that's where I mean, probably the most famous story we have about the most well-known story about Nicholas is the one where uh in I'll I'll tell you the actual story. The actual story is uh as the Roman Empire is collapsing, wealthy people are becoming impoverished. And at the time, if you had a child, a w a girl, the way you would take care of her was you would marry her into another family and you'd give a bride price, uh a large amount of money as a gift, a dowry, right, into the new family. And if you didn't have a dowry, it meant you probably weren't going to get married to a wealthy person because all the wealthy people did this.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So there was a man who had lost everything except for his three daughters. And he had no money to to uh marry them off, and he didn't have enough money to guarantee that he could care for them into the future. So what he decided was the best thing to do was to essentially sell them into slavery, uh, which was still a thing.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Where they would still at least have food. They would be cared for. And if you could find a good master, right, is the thinking, it might be better than starving to death.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, Nicholas people in that place today, actually, you know, that's absolutely true. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh and Nicholas, Nicholas heard about this, and at the time he had some money, and there's a whole other story here. But he snuck to the man's house and he took some money in a bag and he threw it through his window. And this is where we actually get the tradition. In medieval times, they started saying, Oh, he dropped it down a chimney, oh, he tucked it in their socks that were hanging by the fire, oh, he put it by their shoes, right? So that's where we get the tradition of stockings is from this story as it is retold over the centuries. But what he actually does, he throws he throws the gold in through the window. The man finds it, is shocked, and says, I can marry off one of my daughters, which he starts to set up. And then later, Nicholas returns with another bag of money for the second daughter, throws it through the window in the middle of the night, and the father's like, I can't believe this. What is happening?

SPEAKER_01:

I can't imagine what it's in that man's mind. This is so amazing.

SPEAKER_02:

On the third night, the father says, I have to know who is doing this. So he stays up all night. And when the money hits the floor, he runs out the front and he sees this man running away. A young man, actually. He's probably in his 20s at this time.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And the man runs, he tackles him, and and he says, What who are you? Why are you doing this? And it's Nicholas. And Nicholas says, Oh, whoa, whoa. And of course the guy, he's like, Thank you so much. You saved my daughter's lives, you're doing this amazing thing, et cetera, et cetera. And Nicholas says, Please, please, please stop saying that. It was, it's not about me, it's about God. This is a gift from God to you. It's not about Nicholas. And please, please don't tell anyone that I did this, which obviously he did, because we're talking about it.

SPEAKER_01:

We are talking about it 1500 years later.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, but right, so it's a story where in the midst of societal collapse and horrific things happening to people, Nicholas doesn't try to he doesn't try to fix the nation, right? He doesn't try to repair the empire. He tries to take care of these three young women. And and he succeeds in this example. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So what Jesus did, isn't it? Don't you know blessing? He'd say, Don't tell anybody, and they told everybody, and the word spread. That's right. Right. And here we are. Like I just heard. The on the national news the other night. I was just listening to one of the main channels. And of course, you know, we are in a government shutdown. And then in my area, what's yeah, the snap, all the money. And so they had this woman on. She was 23. And I'm sorry. No, got my numbers mixed up. I had a young woman on. He asked how many children. She has three children. He said, How much money do you have in your bank account right now? And she said,$23.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

And I just, everything in me just was like, you know, I couldn't swallow. It was just really difficult. And I thought, okay, all right, what can I do? You know, I can just sit here and go, oh, that's so sad. But like you, a lantern comes in your front yard, you can throw it away and go, oh man, I have three daughters. That's so sweet. But I I what I want to be able to do is to take action, no matter how big or small. And I think that's what the story of Saint Nicholas is reviving in me again. And you're the way you have the book set up, just to be very clear to you, heartlifters, you you just you have to get this. There's 25 readings, right? Devotionals, readings, but you have uh five parts. Am I right? Um you wrote it a while ago.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm like, I don't know. You do. Oh yeah, I do. So it would fit over yeah, five weeks if that's the way you choose to use it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So it's Nicholas of Katara, that's uh all about him, but then you have them broken down into prayers.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And I love it so much because there are just times, I am in that time where I can't find the words. And so I love the liturgies that are coming out and all of the written prayers that are being revived. And your book gives us prayers and words when perhaps we don't have them ourselves.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I can pray in the spirit, I got that. You know, I can moan and groan, which I've done. And I have a feeling there are many, many, many listening. We're coming into a holiday season. Can be the loneliest time of the year, I'm aware. But I love that you have it so that we are in different stages of his life. So then part two is Nicholas, Bishop of Myra. Part three, Nicholas in Bethlehem. I have not read this front to back yet, but I can't wait. Nicholas at Nice, how do you say it?

SPEAKER_02:

Nicaea, yeah. The council. So Nicaea, the Council of Nicaea is the moment where it's really the first meeting of a giant amount of leaders in the in the church.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And what they're trying to figure out in this meeting meeting is what do you have to believe to be a Christian? Because there was a big fight going on about whether you had to believe that Jesus is God. Uh, and this is there's a lot of interesting history here. But uh, very, very likely Nicholas was at this meeting, and so was Constantine. Wow, and so are a lot of other people. But yes, so it incredible important moment. So you you might have heard of the Nicene Creed, yes, uh, which is sort of a a lot of churches will pray this together. And uh what it is, is just a reminder that all believers throughout history, this is kind of a baseline thing that we all have more or less agreed on. Maybe not the exact wording, but the concepts.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yes, which is currently very present. You know, it's probably going to be present through hist history.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and that it is interesting. We are working so hard to stay fractured as a community of believers right now by focusing on our disagreements, some of which are very important. Yes, uh, some of which are social, some of which are political, some of which are theological. Um, but but what we see the church at this time doing in the midst of really significant disagreement, uh, literally some people died in the midst of this. Uh what they said was we need to get together and figure out what we have in common.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So, how how do we serve together? How do we make sure who's in and out? And it's not based on politics, it's not based on society, it's based on this belief in Jesus, who Jesus is, who God is. And Nicholas was at those meetings and he felt very passionately about it. So cool. I don't want to tell you all the Nicholas stories.

SPEAKER_01:

Tell me one.

SPEAKER_02:

I have one I have written down from chapter 22, a story about So So Nick Nicholas spends three years in prison, three, three to five years. We're not 100% sure, during Diocletian, because all he had to do to get out, Diocletian, it was largely uh political what he's doing. He's like, if you just say, I'll do a uh sacrifice to one of the Roman gods, I'll let you out. Nicholas said, No, I'm not doing that. He said, Well, just deny that Jesus is God, I'll let you out. Nicholas says, No, I'm not doing that. But some ministers did because they're like, Well, I'm not doing any good in prison. So they would do this thing, even if they didn't mean it, and they would get out and uh, you know, go into hiding or go minister, whatever. So, what was happening at the Council of Nicaea, Nicholas and others are there who were tortured, who were harmed, who are in prison for a long time. And what was happening is these ministers who had lied to get out or run or hidden, uh, would come to the men like Nicholas, who had been in prison, and would say to them, I have to tell you everything I did wrong during this time.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And this was the beginning of the tradition in in now the Roman Catholic Church of confession.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

They because they called these men the confessors. They would go to them and say, What should I do? How do I make this right?

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't this?

SPEAKER_02:

And so so someone like Nicholas, what he would do, and and there was actually a big debate about this, too. You can see this in the Council of Nicaea, was how do we forgive the ministers who denied Christ? And so it wasn't as much what it has become today, which is you go to this person and you share with them and they say, Okay, here's how you make penance, right? It was more a conversation between two people trying to follow Jesus, where the confessors would say, Who am I to bring you punishment?

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Here's what I think you should do, here's how to serve Christ well. And it was a moment of forgiveness and reconciliation.

SPEAKER_00:

How beautiful.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh at Nicaea. But but Nicholas, uh, there's a moment, so what one of the big fights is, is Jesus actually God? And one of the people on the side saying Jesus is not God is speaking, and we don't know for sure who it was. There, there's some uh there's some debate whether it's the guy who was kind of the key guy or one of his followers, but he is standing up and saying, in front of Constantine and all these church leaders, and Nicholas was probably there, but also not one of the more important people in the room. He's saying, It doesn't matter, it's okay. It's okay that Jesus isn't God. And Nicholas, who was in prison for a number of years, is hearing this and getting more and more upset. And he goes and he slaps the guy in front of everybody.

SPEAKER_01:

My goodness.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is a huge deal because it's actually illegal to do violence in the presence of Constantine. He's the emperor.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02:

So Nicholas gets thrown in prison again and again for saying that Jesus is God. And then the stories, you'll you'll see this in the book, but the stories of what exactly happened here uh it is so interesting. Like there's there's a very uh religious story, there's a really practical, like political story, but the end result is the like the question is is Nicholas allowed to continue as a priest and as a bishop? Yeah, and and eventually the answer is like, yeah, but also please don't be hitting heretics. Like we can't be doing that. We don't know. Not when the emperor is around, it's very embarrassing. So anyway, it's a great story. And it's it's certainly in theologian circles. That's one that are like, oh yeah, Nicholas is gonna punch somebody out.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right. I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

It just shows the passion he had, right? For uh for the truth of who Jesus is, which I which I think is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, doesn't it remind you of a violent man will take the kingdom by force? I mean, I don't know. There are sure that's all right. It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

It's literally, uh, with one exception, the only time we see anything approaching violence from Nicholas, and the only other moment we have is there's, and this is in his later life, he's probably in his mid-60s at this point. There's a moment where a Roman uh executioner is about to cut someone's head off with a sword, and Nicholas grabs it with his hand by the blade to stop the execution because it's it's it's uh the the execution is is not correct. It's unjust.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that would be the key, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

But those those are the only two moments in his entire life that mo mostly what he's known for is being this really mild, kind-hearted, generous person. But yeah, when he gets going, he well, when he sees such injustice, or when he heard this the severe injustice that Jesus is not God, that's it's almost the moment of the the execution story, which is actually our oldest uh Nicholas story and the most likely to be absolutely a hundred percent historically correct. Uh he's on the other side of town in Myra when he hears that this execution is taking place and in his mid-sixties, he runs through the city to get there to stop it. And then yeah, just grabs him with his hand.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds like Harriet Tubman. That's exactly what she did when she was incredible, right? It's just that yes, it is incredible. She saw a slave being unjustly, and she got in the way of the owner throwing the brick, and and it you know, gave her brain damage for the rest of her life. But it's like these are not, yes, they're stories, but they're historically correct. And so I think that's why I get so passionate about uh the saints, and particularly Saint Nicholas right now that we're talking about him. But it's like I really want to have that kind of fortitude and and hope and pray that if and when that were ever the case, I might do the same. But these stories, your book, particularly part five, let me make sure I say, is Nicholas in the Christian Empire. So they are what what you've done here for us, Matt, is all the research. Thank you very much, and consolidated it all in a very extraordinarily different devotional, which I appreciate from the bottom of my heart. We have millions of devotions, right? But devotionals. This is just historically something I can learn, you know. Also, I'm I we love to learn here in this community on car and car. We're always listening, we're always learning. So it's all about Saint Nick teaching us this holiday season, teaching me, and then I can teach others. So I am so grateful for you for doing all the research and sharing it with your children, hashtag Santa fact again and again and again, so that we can sit at St. Nicholas's feet. So before you go, I know that we're really running late, but you and I were talking about the veneration of saints. And having grown up Catholic, um, I still have a deep respect for a whole lot of the haven that the Catholic Church was for me growing up. Uh so many Protestants might take issue or have a problem, right, with uh honoring saints.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

We just had all Saints Day, right, November 1st. So tell me, tell everyone what you told me about the veneration of saints.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I grew up Protestant, I'm still Protestant, and I think there's a misunderstanding of what's happening in the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches when we talk about saints. So what I was taught growing up is that Catholics pray to the saints. Uh, and that's not exactly correct. That's not so so the way to think of it as a Protestant, it's more like this. Uh, we know in Hebrews, right? That we talk about there's a great cloud of witnesses watching us run our race, right? That they're cheering us on, that they're watching us try to throw off the sin that so easily entangles because they're in the presence of God and they're seeing us and going, I hope he doesn't mess up the way I did. Oh I I I hope he does better than me at this. Oh, I I I hope that, oh, that was an incredible moment. Like, look what just happened. Incredible. Like, let's let's cheer together, right? It's like a sporting event, is how scripture describes it. And what um Catholic and Orthodox people do is they look and they say, Here were these amazing fellow brothers and sisters in our history who are now in the presence of God. And why would it be wrong for us to ask for their intervention? It doesn't mean that we can't talk to God ourselves. We can, of course. But in the same way that I might ask my mom to pray for me or my wife, like if there's something that I know from history, Nicholas loves children. And I know that there's uh an impoverished kid in my neighborhood that I've tried to help. Like, why would it be bad for me to say, Nicholas, could you please tell Jesus to take care of this kid? And that's that's what's actually happening, right?

SPEAKER_00:

I really love that.

SPEAKER_02:

Um so it's not, it's different than Protestantism for sure, but I don't think it's not, it's not something evil, it's not a worship, it's not, it's not a movement away from worshiping God. It's just a respect from the for those who have come before us and set an example for us. Our elders, yeah. And that's what Nicholas in particular is really interesting. So today the the process of becoming a saint is very complicated. And it involves a lot of people signing off, and you have to do a certain number of miracles and like all these things. That was not true for Nicholas. Nicholas became a saint through something we call um acclimation, and acclimation is a process where everyone is standing around and they look and go, yeah, obviously. This one's a saint. Right? And it was before all the processes were in place. Um, so Nicholas doesn't have, probably. There are some stories of miracles, but they come pretty late in the history of so when we look at the oldest things, we don't see any supernatural miracles. We see one miracle happening over and over, and it is the miracle of loving your neighbor. That is why Nicholas is a saint. And it is the same miracle that every person, regardless of your theology and what you think God will do supernaturally in the world today, every single one of us has access to perform this miracle in our communities, in our families, in our workplaces, which is the miracle of loving others. And uh that is what Nicholas is famous for. And it is something that is attainable to any follower of Christ, to allow our hearts to be transformed and for the fruit of the Spirit to become clear in our lives to the people around us.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that'll be our mission for this advent, this Christmas season. Because it's not easy to love your neighbor all the time.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, it's not easy to love ourselves or our family or anyone. It's it's it's the Holy Spirit empowers us, right? And that's what we keep coming back to is uh as we are being transformed, become more like Jesus, and that's why that's why the saints. We look at the saints and go, that was a person who is an example of the transformed life. And what do I need, where where do I see defect in my life that is not present in their life, and how can I move toward where they were in their spiritual journey?

SPEAKER_01:

For sure, for sure. Matt, I am so grateful for this conversation. Thank you. Huge pleasure so much for being here with us. I know my heartlifters are gonna just be so grateful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, thank you, Chanel. Uh it is a pleasure to be with you and with the whole the whole community. So Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas!

SPEAKER_01:

Heartlifter, thanks for being here today. It wasn't by accident. I know you are here on purpose. I want to close with reading 1 John 4, 7 through 21. May we take these words to heart and follow in the example of Saint Nicholas by loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us. He sent his only son into the world that we might live through him. This is love. Not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. This is how we know that we live in him and he in us. He has given us of his spirit. And we have seen and testified that the Father has sent his son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us, so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment. In this world, we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not yet seen. And he has given us this command anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister. Peace be to you, Heartlefter.