So Much More
This is a conversational style podcast discussing every manner of things regarding art, family, small business, parenting, and spirituality. Dennis and Heather have been married for 32 years, which is no small feat, parents of five children, and musicians and artists. Imagine overhearing lots of conversations.
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So Much More
I'm Angry. Navigating Anger, Vulnerability, and Faith with Brad Nelson Pt.3
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Navigating life's rough seas of anger and vulnerability can be daunting. Drawing from my own experiences and the expert insights of our guest, Brad Nelson, we aim to provide you with a compass to chart this emotional territory. As we journey through these complex landscapes, we underscore the value of recognizing and expressing anger, a process that can be challenging, but ultimately liberating. We also delve into vulnerability as a defense mechanism, an intriguing concept that has recently come to our realization.
A key part of understanding our emotions is learning to name them and take practical steps towards becoming aware of them. Heather, shares her journey of owning her anger. We also engage with the notion that not everything carries moral weight—a revelation that can be incredibly empowering. Furthermore, we explore the potential trap of over-reflecting and the importance of staying grounded in the present. Our discourse leads into the symbolism of Mary consoling Eve, an image that offers a glimmer of hope in the shadows of shame.
Towards the end of our conversation, we advocate for the significance of hearing diverse voices, inspired by the wisdom of Reverend Dr. Howard, John Wesley and Bishop Michael Curry. We address the discomfort that accompanys the evolution of faith and how we can wrestle with the difficult questions that emerge. We encourage you to consider the teachings of Brian Zahnd and historical Christian mystics—a reminder that growth and transformation in faith doesn't equate to abandonment. Join us on this enlightening exploration as we continue our discussion on anger.
Welcome to season two of So Much More, a lifestyle podcast by Dennis and Heather Drake. So much more is a podcast based on our lives, eclectic and inspired, one where relationships are honored and invested in. We invite you to join us as we continue a lifestyle and a lifelong discussion.
Dennis Drake:Hey, this is Dennis. Thanks so much for listening to our podcast. I just ask you that, if you're enjoying it, if you'd remember to subscribe or follow the show, like it, however that all works, i would ask you to please review it. If you take that time, that really does help us get the show out there. But anyways, just want to let you know you're listening to part three of a three part series of a conversation that Heather and I had with Brad Nelson. Listen as Heather and I and Brad discuss anger. I will say this about Heather in terms of her anger.
Dennis Drake:Well, this is also an expected bluff Drum roll please, that it was only until like a year or two ago that she read whatever book that she read, or you know, or maybe it was the, it was the progression of of, because you've been working on the, the um Enneagram for a lot longer than a couple of years. But anyways, whenever you presented to me the idea that that I might have anger, because I just thought, honest to God, that was what was weird. It's like she's able to live this life and not manifest, not deal, not have anger. It was my perception. So so then she's going okay, maybe I do have it, but you know there's people that turn it in the way that I do. This is the atypical, you know, which is kind of outward. Or or then they internalize and do you know, either resentment or blah, blah, blah, you know whatever. And so so she talked about uh, okay, now this is one of the if I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you said it's one of the hardest things that I've maybe the hardest thing I've ever faced is like well, i got to start dealing with this, so. So then she goes. So then she was really testing the ice, kind of like uh, you know, before she again, you got to understand the dynamic.
Dennis Drake:She grew up in a house where her mother uh, would, would, at times had beat her, unconscious, you know, and then she was like I got to do whatever I can to keep from making her mad. So, in other words, she just danced, played the game, and then she married an angry man and then she had to do this dance or whatever. So that was her. She was so busy doing all these things. And then our relationship has grown to the point where I think, by her own admission, she doesn't have to be as afraid as she used to be of me. I'm not saying that she's free and clear of this and I give her no reason to. But at the same time now she knows we actually can't have hard conversations and I don't lose it and and are mean and and threatened and blah, blah, blah. So. So all of a sudden now she's starting to test the size, and I said all of that to say that when she tries to be angry she's horrible. I need myself incompetent.
Heather Drake:I told you.
Dennis Drake:And I second that, And I second that in the way that I will say that she like like it's amazing to me because like, ooh, that was real hurtful What you just said, or that was real, or that seems like really disproport or whatever. And then it was like Don's on me, It's like, oh, she's never done this. So again, there's that part of of when the person you love comes at you at all. you want to defend, you want to accuse, you want to. but what if you could step back and go oh, this person's trying a new thing, You know. and what if we could really kind of do that with everything, Like, oh, I'm bumping up against something. It must be something you're terrible at, because this is not going well, but instead we always take it like very personal.
Dennis Drake:You know like, because the things that she said were in fact personal, but from a guy who's, who's, i mean like I'm ninja level angry and mean at that. So so when she approaches this oh that was adorable, Your little triad.
Brad Nelson:You know what I mean, so I wasn't able to like.
Dennis Drake:I could have taken offense because it was, you know, in some ways hurtful things, but it was like she wasn't any good at it. But then I'm like, okay, i can't have it. And I said all of that to say this too I can't have it two ways I, i, she can either wall up and be that person who keeps me at a distance because she has to keep all that together, or I can invite her into this intimate, vulnerable place, but then the minute she comes out and does it wrong, i punish her for it.
Brad Nelson:Yeah.
Dennis Drake:Yeah, so that's the thing too. when you're dealing with people on all of this, it's like how do we invite them out into that vulnerability and then that punish them for it?
Brad Nelson:Yeah, yeah, and you know there's, there's, there's another dimension to it for me that I have just discovered in this whole season of learning and awareness, that I use vulnerability as a defense mechanism.
Heather Drake:So I stand at the other end of that.
Brad Nelson:So I I just recently realized, um, i will frequently in conversation with people and some of this is genuine, like I am genuinely fascinated to ask questions and to learn about people Like I wow, you do that for a living, tell me about that. I don't know anything about that, and it can be very easy for me to just get so enraptured with the conversation that I just keep asking you rapid fire questions about you. And I've had people over the years repeatedly say to me you know what are these days? we need to talk about you. Like I need to ask some questions about you. And I'm aware that, uh, i have a very disarming way of using vulnerability to keep you at your gutifully bad speed to invite a level of being known.
Heather Drake:But it's only what you've already metered out. I will allow this. This is what I think you won't be so grossed out by that we could still have conversation back. I would still be invited back. It is a lot like and I say this because I do that, so no judgment, i just recognize it. This is us, you know. Don't pull the curtain all the way back Or like in a theater. There's a first curtain. We're not talking about the curtain behind the curtain that all the acting is happening at This is the one we've said now, this is the play and this is what we've scripted.
Heather Drake:And then there's the black curtain, When someone's standing with a bag of sand, do not press this button.
Brad Nelson:So, yeah, i just feel like there are all these layers to it, you know, and. But I love. Carl Jung says a wrote that 90% of the shadow is pure gold. So what I really enjoy about this is, as you bring all this stuff into awareness, you discover wow, there's actually a lot of beauty here, a lot of goodness to be used, and, oh boy, it's not fun. It is not a fun journey.
Heather Drake:But it is a call into awakening, into a new way of being, and I think that obviously that is the maturity that we're hoping for. I think that in some minds, the idea of maturity is what now do you know? And I think that ultimately this is just my opinion but knowing yourself, that's where the being able to meet God, in that I know who I am and my belovedness and my worthiness and how that relates to anger, but also how I present vulnerability. You were talking about your willingness to offer vulnerability as a player place of connection, but there's somebody. I forget who it is, but they said people live their whole lives and they're un-listened to. So very often, when people are listened to, they can't extinguish the feeling of being listened to and loved. They actually, it feels loving and in the presence of love. Aren't we all transformed? So there is that idea of transformation only happens when we're listened to.
Heather Drake:And in part of being angry is knowing, even if no one listens to me, god can, or can I even take the place to be able to say I'm investigating this anger, why do I feel this way? And then listen and say it's valid, meet it with not well, for my issue of resentment. I find that contempt is real close. So, instead of that contempt for myself for not being aware that somebody else needs again my responsibility to guess someone's needs. I think that that's a script that they've given a pastor's wife and said this is your job to do this And being able to turn that back over and go. No, what it needs is compassion. I need compassion. This part of me, whether it's ego or whether it's spirit or whatever it is. There is pain and I need compassion. And then how to actually be able to cultivate and say how can I be compassionate?
Dennis Drake:You know, there's so many of the aspects of our relationship that we expect people to be psychic in, you know, like you should just know this, and I think that if we can kind of go at it with the idea that no people don't unless you tell them, and then we have to kind of, i think that's the risk, because that's where, in order to do that, you have to be vulnerable, and so do I. Have the people in my life that have proven trustworthy, or I'm willing to try and then verbalize those things, because they seem so obvious to us, but they're not. They're masked by the fact that we got our own issues going on, and so I can't see as clear as you think that it is for me until you tell me, and so I think, more times than not, there are good people around us that if we would be vulnerable enough to share with them, they would help carry your burdens.
Dennis Drake:And like you, said even if not, we do know that God will never leave us forsaken.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, and you know, trust is built consistently over time. So you it's. I think Brene Brown is borrowing from John Gottman, but she uses the image of a marble jar, that there are these little sliding door moments where you either see me or you don't, and if you turn aside and see me, you deposit a marble in the jar and you get enough of those little micro moments. Trust is built right And, but when it comes to vulnerability, like with people you don't know, somebody's gotta go first.
Brad Nelson:Yeah but there are all kinds of little micro ways that I arrived at the conclusion that you're safe people And we know when we're in the presence of a person who's safe, like I've been talking with my wife over the years what it's like to be a woman in a world where women are constantly objectified and looked at, and a woman knows when she's being ogled, she knows when she's walking through a parking lot and that's a dangerous presence. Right, there's just this knowledge And, in the same way, we may not have like deep relationship with people, but we do have these very subtle sensors for knowing that you know what. I think this person is a safe one. I think that this is a safe place to venture out onto the ice and give it a try, and I absolutely felt that with you guys, which is why I was willing to risk vulnerability.
Heather Drake:Well, we're honored by that too. Recognizing that is a gift. when somebody presents the first part of my story, well, the feeling is mutual that you're very valued and respected.
Dennis Drake:But I think that you know it just. Hopefully it just demonstrates to anyone that might be listening to that these kind of relationships are highly valuable. They're so helpful And so that they are to be treasured when they're found and sought after. In that sense, you know, heather and I were kind of lamenting the other day about the fact that our relationship You were very much lamenting.
Heather Drake:Yeah, that our relationship with you and.
Dennis Drake:Tricia is just now getting to the place that it is.
Heather Drake:We were looking at that. they've been here 10 freaking years, Yeah, and so why?
Dennis Drake:did we miss the boat on that, but anyways, watch this third try. So, heather, why don't you help us? Because there are people listening that might approach anger from your standpoint, and so they might and might benefit them to hear, like, how are you approaching it? Okay, i hear you that reading would be a way that works for you to gather information, but I see you making a lot of practical steps too.
Heather Drake:And one of the things that's been very helpful to me at least in the awareness and actually has, i feel, like a gift to people who are trying to walk alongside of me through this particular journey is naming the things, is actually taking the power given to go. This is what it is, and instead of dismissing it or living life disembodied from it, this is what it is. And then sometimes for me, the issue is does that sound like complaining? Does it sound? I'm constantly? there's some people who are not aware and don't do any self reflection. I'm overly reflecting, you know, like there's this idea of you get to just be in the moment too. It doesn't have to be a defense of why you live your life. There's a presence now. So, naming something and going I am in pain right now, or I am frustrated right now, or I am angry at this And then giving hope to someone to say you're allowed to be angry or justification for the anger, not in the morality of.
Heather Drake:There was a gift to me when I came across this idea. It wasn't mine, but I came across it and it was a real gift that not everything has morality tied to it, and that was shocking because literally in my life. In my consciousness, there was morality tied to everything. Everything I did was-.
Dennis Drake:That's a whole podcast.
Heather Drake:It is was it right? was it in scripture? What kind of justification? why would I do this? What is the result of this? What will they think of it? Will it be two, I think, one, of the issues of living life as a person-.
Dennis Drake:It must be exhausting to be in your brain.
Heather Drake:Yes, it is and it goes so fast I mean, it's rapid fire. Can this person handle this kind of pain? Do you even want them to handle it, will they? what will they do with it later? Like? those are big questions because in my life, especially again going back to being a small child and making decisions that weren't mine to make, making life and death, or what felt like life and death situations, was what will happen later once you have this information. And so very often to me it's just better not to give you that information, because I don't even know. We talked about this and it's one of the things that makes you. what has incited anger for you is a constant asking of what do you think about this? And I say I don't know. And he's like, of course you know what you're thinking. And I'm like, yeah, that's not the question, though. It's not what I'm thinking, it's how will you respond to what I'm thinking? How will I respond to what I'm thinking? What these?
Dennis Drake:thoughts will do. Maybe I'll think something different later.
Heather Drake:Yeah, no, there's a one chance, once and done deal. So I'm hesitant very often to talk about that, but the practice of naming things has been really helpful. This is an injustice. This is wrong. This is not now the judgment that comes after it. That needs to be. You know, allow spirit to come in there. But this idea of what is it like to name it, to be given autonomy or to even take it?
Heather Drake:Somebody asked what I was doing about patriarchy and the very fact that we still are in a world where they're just, and we've mentioned it, and I love Advent for this you get to see the story of God's redemption through the lens of a woman, and there's that piece of art that I love, and around Advent, and it's Mary Consoles Eve, and the imagery by this nun that was gifted to the world is Eve has this look of shame and Mary is taking her hand and putting it on her very pregnant belly, like inviting hope, even when the shame is so big.
Heather Drake:Here's the hope that comes with that And then recognizing, because here's where that morality is. Then, well, am I at any point being Eve or am I being Mary? But I think the point is that we're both. There's parts of us that need to be nurtured and compassion. And then there's other parts of us that you know I I was listening to somebody else's advent truth and they were saying the gift of advent, in looking at both of these people, is Eve said I'll take it and Mary said just let it be. There's a different posture in keeping yourself safe and having to take that knowledge. And, dennis, i've been talking so much about the invitation, is the tree of knowledge good and evil or the tree of life?
Heather Drake:And how often we are at the tree of knowledge just trying to figure it out which is why books have been helpful, but in the essence of spirit and what that looks like for us to cultivate the voice of spirit so we can stay in those places of life.
Dennis Drake:So you know, if I'm hearing you say that an approach for anger can be just to rest and not have to act, have to respond, have to think, to just kind of name things or what they are, you know, or in the emotions that you're having, and to me I've observed that with you And that's something that I'm trying to adopt in my own life, because to me there has to then be that response. But what if that? you know? what if that's true? that scientific report, you know that 15 seconds is really when the anger is, and it's what we do with it after, and so we are-.
Heather Drake:But what we connect it to? there are thoughts that we connect it to that, make it bigger.
Dennis Drake:And so what if you don't, instead of going?
Heather Drake:what is in the presence? what is this practice of presence? I wanted the books that I love, and again, this can be a really long list, but practicing the presence of God by Brother.
Heather Drake:Andrew and this idea that you can meet up with the divine while you're peeling potatoes, while you're mindful of what is happening right now and how that relates to, you know, breath, prayers, or how that relates to paying attention to this, that we are ultimately not alone, that we are not, that there is a oneness that Jesus prayed for And for all of us, that if we could experience this oneness, that somehow Jesus, you know, was able to live fully human but fully connected to the Father, in so much that his connection was not ruined by him. Quoting David, who said I feel like you've abandoned me, you know, we know that not to be true, but in this moment it feels like abandonment, but feeling so comfortable that you could say let it be. And then I love that, obviously, that Jesus is saying the same thing that he heard his mother talk to him about.
Heather Drake:You know, she says let it be to the angel, and he says in response the same song that she's saying you're will be done, not mine. He makes it his own, but we've heard that lyric before You know. it is in that her let it be. And I love that idea of I sent you a little Instagram thing about it And this is a much bigger maybe podcast. but Mary was offered an invitation and it was for her, the ability to consent. Sometimes we feel like Mary. just you know, god showed up and made a proclamation and that's just what it was. But this idea to co-create with God is a beautiful invitation, especially during Advent.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, consensual Christmas.
Heather Drake:Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Drake:That's good.
Dennis Drake:One of the things we always do at the end of the podcast is and you started to do it there preemptively is mention some things that would be helpful for those people that do read or that don't, and should, maybe because you know the conversation that we're having. It's not like things will get solved by one conversation, But I think these kinds of conversations find us at the right point in our life when we need them. So I just gotta believe that at some point there's an intersection for somebody in this conversation And what would help them on that journey? What would you wanna say to somebody else that's in that same journey? And so I'd ask both of you guys that question.
Dennis Drake:You know, what would you recommend that we that maybe we look into, cause I'm just so grateful that you have shared some of the things that you've shared with me. You know, and you know my conversations with Jerry, and you know, of course, my conversation with you, brad, have just, you know, helped me on this journey, you know. So sometimes the books we read or and you know you could technically say you read it if you listen to it on.
Brad Nelson:Audible, it doesn't matter.
Dennis Drake:Yeah, it's a. what's the word? Technicality? you don't have to admit that you listen to the book. You can say I read it. Was the information still given to you? Cause the information was imparted?
Heather Drake:Exactly, and you know, much of the world history is an oral tradition. We didn't I mean up until the printing press.
Dennis Drake:You were reading the book. You could read a shameless non-readers with all the books that you read, so I figured a way to sneak it into that. I read it.
Heather Drake:If I heard it, you're free from shame and from judgment. The information is what it was intended, not necessarily the modality, the mark on the page, which is a deeper magic still. That's one of the reasons I love no. for me, reading was an escape from people's you know very angry world that they kind of head trapped me in So I could read about Narmia in a deeper magic still.
Dennis Drake:Kind of love that. So what else would you recommend?
Heather Drake:I love a lot of black women authors. Obviously, they have a lot to say about anger and a lot to say about, and they need to be listened to in that same kind of place. And so there's a bajillion now. One of the books that has been just beautiful to me is one Women Were Birds a lot by Nedra Twab. Right now, and then paying attention to, you know, voices that have been in a minority, looking at that and going what is it like for us to listen to Marlena Graves, who said the way up is down, you know, and again, these teachers that have so much to say about living differently.
Dennis Drake:A long time ago, you know, cs Lewis had said that you know, when reading it would be important to read historical and contemporary in alternating fashion, versus, and so and I would add to that that it's been my experience that most people read like-minded people.
Heather Drake:Oh, right, right yeah.
Dennis Drake:So the Middle-Age White guy is gonna have a collection of Middle-Age White guy books. So the thing that Heather's, the idea that Heather's presenting there is that you know how many Middle-Age White guys have read a Black woman author And of course you know I think there has to be a thread. You know, if you're a spiritual person, that there would be a spiritual you know that would connect you with that author. You know, i'm not just saying randomly pull a book because a Black lady wrote it, but I'm saying that there are Black female theologians.
Heather Drake:Willa Gaffney is awesome.
Dennis Drake:You have a voice that is you're void of Unless you were to hear that perspective. Just because of their life experience and the God that's in them and versus you know their experiences has just brought a voice that you're not gonna. That Middle-Age White guy is just not, is just you know.
Heather Drake:And then so so yeah, So I think like Tony Morrissey, i think of Maya Angelou, i think of people like that who are just like bell hooks, just brilliant thinkers. And again, we live in a time where we don't always get to sit at a table with those people, but through a book we get to have almost a one-sided conversation, but we do get to hear that idea. You were talking about this study that you've done in Ruth and I'm like I wonder if you've read. The Women's Midrash of this idea of that book has a lot to say.
Heather Drake:I love it when people I don't love it. I actually hate it. It makes me feel sick to my stomach when people misinterpret those things and then, you know, try to cage people, or so I have a yeah. It makes my skin itchy When they start saying you know, did you read this? I'm like, do you have any idea what you are talking about? Have you read it in context? is my as a clarion call for me. Don't just take off that one verse, read it in context. And then also, you know, recognizing reading the women, who are not just women, but in fact there's a beautiful poet who is. He's got some other stuff that's fantastic on Instagram. God speaks through wombs.
Dennis Drake:I just remember Drew Jackson did that was.
Heather Drake:Yeah, fantastic.
Dennis Drake:I just remember the first, like you know, time. I mean this would have been a while back, but you and I started kind of like finding books of Christian ministers that were outside of our denomination And that seemed like very risky, like we were, you know, some up on guard kind of a whatever ooh, check us out, we're you know. But then in finding, like this particular author from this denomination, it's, you know, kind of like maybe we don't have a lot of connection with, but there's still a brilliant thinker and God speaking through that, and so all of a sudden that began to this journey of going. You know why would we limit God's voice? you know, in any other place that we would. So I know you can't really say something, but I wanted to add.
Heather Drake:I was because you had mentioned earlier that you had some, you know, brought your a little bit of wisdom from Richard Rohr who brings? again from a different tradition, i think. As a child, when I learned to read, i learned to read quickly and I was stuck because I couldn't go to the library. The library head from school was only during school. You know, like you couldn't as small children, you can't take them home.
Heather Drake:You can read them at school. So I was stuck with my grandmother's library And but it did allow me from a very early age to read books that were like bigger than I was. I wasn't stuck with children's books And I feel so grateful for that, like there are things that I didn't always understand. But I was eight years old and I was reading a book by an Indian mystic, Sutter Sundar Singh. I love that.
Heather Drake:And yeah, and books like that again, then I would offer to people the knowledge that I myself, as a seven year old, had read with no understanding, not allowing it to change me first, but I was just gonna proclaim what I have and I got myself into lots of trouble by that, But the idea that I had books that were available that were beyond the scope of what I knew or what. And again, I don't think that only black women have voices, but I think that they have. It is our responsibility to make sure that who we listen to is the diverse prophets that say to us you know, the kingdom is coming, It's so close, it's even right here, Yeah.
Dennis Drake:Well asking you, brad than that same question. You know, based on this conversation, is there anything that rises up in your heart that you would maybe share with the listeners?
Brad Nelson:I mean I've been answered in two ways. One is like, as it relates to anger. You know we mentioned Susan David's book Emotional Legility. She's a South African author, just brilliant, brilliant speaker. That's a fantastic book. You know, richard Rohr's stuff on breathing underwater spirituality in the 12 steps gets into a whole section on resentment and anger. That just took me to the woodshed. You know, kent Dobson is somebody who I've worked with at different points in my life and he has a podcast called Hints and Guesses And he's got a podcast that I have gone back to over and over and over and over called The Hidden Gifts of Anger. That's just fantastic. But then, like speaking more broadly, with kind of what we were just talking about, like Nedra is somebody that my wife and I are talking about all the time And I don't even know what her last name is. You said it Twab Twab.
Heather Drake:Glover first.
Brad Nelson:yeah, So I just know, because we keep talking like I see her.
Heather Drake:Instagram account. She's the only person that I know named Nedra. So we're fine when I first made best faces. We talk about Nedra a lot, but man one of the You and she has a new book coming out, i think of the year.
Brad Nelson:Yes, i just saw that. In fact it's on my I shouldn't say this on the podcast.
Heather Drake:Oh, it's on something else.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, well, no, I'm gonna get it for my wife for Christmas.
Heather Drake:So we'll just cut that out.
Dennis Drake:Hopefully. Yeah, well, i won't hear it in two weeks, Okay, yeah, so you're good, i won't hear it. It's on Christmas, you can, unless you forget.
Brad Nelson:Man, one of the biggest voices that's kind of like shaping my life along the lines of. I am really intentionally listening outside of kind of the, the Richard Roars of my world, which I they're like me, right, so I find those, i come by those voices pretty naturally. But there is an African-American minister in DC Actually, i think it's Alexandria. I might be saying that wrong, but Alfred Street Baptist Church in Virginia, the Reverend Dr Howard John Wesley.
Heather Drake:This dude he went Yeah, but then you could also read James Baldwin, you could also read Cohn, you could also.
Brad Nelson:But he went viral for a sermon that he did after what happened with Trayvon Martin And I'm just telling you, like that guy, I want to hear everything he has to say.
Heather Drake:I also want to hear everything that Bishop Michael Curry talks about. His understanding of the love of Christ is revolutionary And everybody should be listening to him. Yeah.
Dennis Drake:You know, and so as diverse as people are in the way that they look, imagine if that's a reflection of how diverse God is and his spirit his gifts, you know, and I think that it is, and so if we just have this one slice of the pie, you know we're so bland in our, in our, in our palates, and so I just, you know, i'm hopeful that that, through all of these connections that God would give us, that that it would create in us that full, the fullness of God, and that that's that people that are listening wouldn't have to struggle under the weight and shame of of anger and in the struggle of of of the destruction that it brings.
Heather Drake:I would also recommend that Audie Cobbler who is Traysofter.
Heather Drake:So, yeah, you know, again, sometimes with anger we want to meet it with the same fierceness that we've been mid gifted with it, and so there's this sometimes softer is definitely the way to go. So, yeah, we could talk about what books to read all the time Sometimes. So you mentioned that anger is a gift or this was on the podcast, but I would tell you that I have found it extremely difficult to claim that gift as my home. There are some gifts that are like easy claimed and there's others that are like ooh.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, well, and I know that they're like, i think, dallas Willard says Brilliant Read everything. I'm happy. I trust Jesus stewarding anger way more than I trust myself, and so there I do feel like in his writings there is a little bit of a caution There should be.
Heather Drake:It is for all people that understand it. it's caustic And the container that it's held in is very important to how much is spilled out on other people. And then, in my situation, being mindful that it's very caustic to hold on to it, myself. So there is a better way of doing that, and it is giving it to Jesus who is capable?
Brad Nelson:Yeah, who knows what to do with it? Who knows how to translude it? Yes, yeah.
Dennis Drake:Well, i appreciate you guys sharing those things and hopefully people can find within that I did want to ask you about. I remember I don't know when it was not relatively recently, but you were reading the Dan Allender book and that probably made you more angry than I've seen you get at any book.
Heather Drake:He's so provoked, he's such a He's a provocateur, isn't that He is? He is so provoking, yes.
Brad Nelson:He is.
Dennis Drake:You know what I mean. Because the things that well, and the reason why I remember it so well is because you're so kind that when you read a book that challenges you, that you don't keep that to yourself, that you allow the confrontation in that book to be shared with your loved ones and your husband.
Heather Drake:And so I just remember, i just appreciate the way that you said that because my family goes because I'll say can I just read you this one thing?
Dennis Drake:If it were this one thing, It's not One time this is what happened.
Heather Drake:It wasn't too recently, i mean it wasn't too long ago. I said to Dennis can I read you this one thing? And he said I got up from my sleep only to use the bathroom. I'm going for active bed. But I saw him and I was like, oh, this was good, i was just reading this.
Dennis Drake:He's like I am sleeping.
Heather Drake:I only am up for this, Yeah let me tell you this one thing.
Dennis Drake:And then she's, and pretty soon she's like nine pages into a medical journal. That has happened Because we, you know, anger is, you know, they've proven this about you know and so it's like, okay, well, just get to the. You know the cliff notes for me. I don't want to read the medical journals yet.
Brad Nelson:But she's delighted to read them And then sharing that with you.
Dennis Drake:But do you remember the Dana Elnider book?
Heather Drake:I do.
Dennis Drake:Because I think that that was. it was one of those things where, when you're ready for those things, they meet you at that moment, when you're ready, it's just like it's time to.
Heather Drake:I think the way I respond, or at least I like to defend my way of response, is because in the Jewish tradition, you say tell me where it's written. Like I want to know, like this is just your imagination. And then I was reading someone Rabbi Ruttenberg, she's wonderful, you should read her, follow her on the Instagram and stuff. She's a woman rabbi. She recommends she was talking to a Christian person following and they were asking a question and she goes I want to show you how Torah is written. And then how the comments on Torah is written.
Heather Drake:On one hand, the man who says this like this is what Rabbi Herschel says. Right next to it is written an absolute contradiction. And we were talking about this fact that you know, paul offers one thing, james offers something else. It seems like they're talking out of both sides of their faith. Either you're saved by faith alone or James is like you have no faith if there's not works. You know so. Either one of them is right or both can be true at the same time. And so there is this incredible hope. So in this book called I don't remember the name of it, actually, i know that it's black and red and it's by Allender And I think it's called something about your story or the gift of your story. We can look that up in just a minute. But in the book of telling your story he says if there are any parts of your story that you would edit or write out, like any chapters that you are not like, grateful for that. It is an affront to God, who is writing the story with you.
Brad Nelson:Yeah to be told to be told.
Heather Drake:That's the name of it, Thank you. So that to me is offensive, because there are parts of my story that I wish never happened And there are chapters that I think as a storyteller, because I would write the story this way There was a beautiful princess and she lived happily ever after which is a terrible story.
Heather Drake:No one would read that. You know, being able to embrace the dragon, being able to find out that those kind of things are fearless and beautiful things I want to do, but for most, i mean I want to. Yeah, i want to look away from the chapters that feel like they contain so much pain, instead of going back and allowing And.
Heather Drake:I think, the invitation is in that whole book is allow the spirit to go back and read it to you. Dennis and I were talking about this recently, the idea of the difference in reading scripture, going to scripture, because no matter if you want the scripture to say, you can find something that says just like it. But if you will allow in maybe the Hebrew tradition, even starting there, but allow the scriptures to read you, that's a whole other book.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, so two things. My wife and I had dinner with Alinder once, and this is this.
Heather Drake:That was a total power play right there.
Brad Nelson:Okay, i mentioned my previous job. I used to like drop I used to get to bring him in as one of our speakers. Well, now we have higher expectation, Yeah Well he we're having a meal and Trisha said something and he put down his fork and he turned and looked her full in the face and said you are a deeply troubled woman, and then he went back to eating.
Heather Drake:And did you say from then on, this is what I say to you, Trisha, when you bring it here, you are as dead now under prophesies?
Brad Nelson:Oh that was so funny. But then, man, i just I love that like two things true at the same time, yes, and like holding things in tension, like even with the Ruth stories. you've got wait a second. Deuteronomy 23 says no Moabite or Ammonite shall enter the assembly up to the 10th generation.
Heather Drake:And we got yeah, exactly, but Ruth's a Moabite, jesus comes from her. Yeah.
Brad Nelson:She's the grandmother of King David, the greatest King we have. So and then it's like well, which one is it then? Then you got this like this foreign wife. but then you got Ezra Nehemiah. that's all about like doing away with foreign wives, And it's all there in the sacred text, sitting side by side, And what do you do with that? Or, most of us seem to shut our eyes to it.
Dennis Drake:Well, and to me, you know, there I've just found such comfort in going. Well, like you know, if I were to approach it as a legal document, there's some holes in it. You know, if I were to approach it as this rule book, that's absolute and it's not consistent at times And it's not all encompassing, for sure You know. So, you know, is it a fable? Is it a useless thing? Is it just some literature? You know, i believe it's so much more, and so, and to find its value in the fact that, for me, what it done, what dawned on me the other day, was so profound, because I'm literally in a struggle with this, you know, as we speak, and I thought to myself, you know, as a fundamentalist, at one point in my life I found everything I needed in the Bible, and atheists find everything that they need to believe, what they believe in the Bible. You know what I mean. And well, look there, i found it in the Bible and that's proof for my case. And so I thought, i thought, it rose up in me.
Dennis Drake:That is a supernatural book If a fundamentalist can be satisfied with it and an atheist can be satisfied with it, and a person who believes that it is nothing more than literature or any one of the. So the book is a supernatural book and that is profound to me. And so, as a supernatural book, if something glowing fell from the sky and we were confident that was a UFO that wasn't, i would approach it differently than if, you know, i dropped your cell phone. I know what to do with an iPhone. You know I would approach that extraterrestrial thing with. Let's find out what it has for me, not what I can tell, because I can tell my iPhone what I needed to do. Google, dan Allen.
Brad Nelson:There's a book on it, you can be told Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Drake:Just a while, while the other person's talking.
Brad Nelson:Yeah.
Dennis Drake:I mean I can control that, and so we've approached the Bible in that sense of I can control it. And so then we have. We've been Bible benders and we've done this, but to me I'm just delighting in approaching it as that supernatural book that that's going to speak to me, that's going to maybe read me, and that word wasn't original with me. I heard someone say that like let the book read you, and Heather, just you know, quoted there a moment ago. But in that there is a lot of life for me there.
Heather Drake:And, i think, the invitation to allow spirit to re-enchant the text for us when we've been told it's encyclopedia. Let it be an entrance into the mystery.
Dennis Drake:And who was it that said that of a Christian that you'll either become a mystic or not?
Brad Nelson:Oh, it was a Catholic writer, yeah.
Heather Drake:I think he's for it Right in the middle of my tongue, carl Ronner. Yes, you either become a mystic or nothing at all.
Dennis Drake:Yeah, and to me, i have found the fundamentalist kind of a Christian who's just going to flat, bury their head in the sand. They believed it when they were a kid, they're going to believe it now and they're always going to believe it And they're not. But anyone who's progressing is going to find some struggles, going to find some things that you're just not settling. Not in that you're abandoning Christ, but I just mean that, like the walk is just not, the things that made sense to you as a younger person are not going to make sense anymore. And so in me being fully engulfed in that phase of my walk, i'm not turning away, yeah, and I see why people do, because they have those inconsistencies and those things that are probably not going to be answered on this side of glory or whatever.
Dennis Drake:You know that you kind of just you bury your head in the sand or, but I'm still curious, you know, and I'm just I think, and I think design in my design, and so if you're not going to walk away, then I think for us to kind of really go. Well then, what is behind the curtain? What is the mystical side of this thing? And that's exciting to me because then it has a whole. I mean it's infinite.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, it makes me think of I think of Brian Zond as somebody who went through that process, that growth process, but he did it in public, Yeah, and his book Water to Wine is such a helpful. I almost like a manual for people who are going through that same process And to begin to stick your toes in and wade out into the mystical. What does it look like, not to talk to God but to enter a state of awareness where you are experiencing the real thing, the actual presence?
Heather Drake:There is this willed form and the idea that maybe it's not a voice coming outside of you, into you, but that you're actually still enough to hear the voice.
Dennis Drake:Well, it's a shame too, because when you say that I just kind of hear people shutting down going well, that's a heretic, I can't listen to him or Roar as a heretic or whatever. And so for me, I mean, what do you do with that?
Brad Nelson:Well, the best prophet the best prophet?
Dennis Drake:I'm not asking people to give up their faith or to, but you know what, if there's something good, you could find in his teaching and, you know, do we have to like, imagine you have to like, immediately go.
Dennis Drake:that's different, that's foreign. I disagree with that. So, immediately, that is poison to us. And I think that I've met him, i've spoke to him, you know, face to face with him, and he's a follower of Christ who is endeavoring to try to figure it out, you know, and so, and to admit when he's wrong. and at this point this is the way he sees it. And so, to me, i find life in that, because at every point I don't want to be judged, as at, you know, is this the moment when I got to be judged, for I know as much Christianity You know what I mean It's like you're kind of on a walk and I know what I know then and I had grace for it.
Dennis Drake:I know what I know now, but I think to me there's got to be some responsibility for us. You know, as lifelong learners and followers, that we're growing.
Heather Drake:Yeah, i get the. There's an Old Testament story where Jacob is wrestling with an angel and obviously we believe it to be more than angel and angel of the Lord or a pre-Bethlehem appearance of the Christ, however we describe it. But he's over and over again asking tell me your name, and he doesn't get the answer. I want to know who you are so that I can know what box to put you in, so I could put limits on you and say, okay, that's this God. And God denies the request to get and just offers. And then the beauty of it is I think this is where I think a lot of people are, but in that I'm not hearing the answer. But still he claims his blessing and then in the claiming of the blessing, it's a wrestle And I think that you had talked about earlier.
Heather Drake:Even this idea of anger in the claiming. You might end up with a hip out of socket, but you're then. You're so transformed that when your brother sees you he says oh, i see the face of.
Brad Nelson:God Yeah.
Heather Drake:So what a beautiful story but, you get. I'm asking you what's your name and the answer is I'm not going to give it to you, yep.
Brad Nelson:It's like you will have to enter into the mystery.
Heather Drake:Yeah.
Brad Nelson:And here's the thing that irritates me I shouldn't say it quite like that, but it does irritate me is when you, yeah, when you talk about like mysticism and like people who come from the tradition that I came up and get immediately uncomfortable to me. That is a okay. You don't know your own story, because I realize Brian's on just wrote a book about this not long ago, but you do realize the desert fathers and mothers of the third, fourth and fifth century right, the St John of the Cross, teresa of Avila.
Brad Nelson:We have all these Julian Norwich, these miss, these Christian mystics. And gosh, you start going back into reading some of the Celtic spirituality and you find original goodness, care for the earth, the elevation of women. Oh, wait, a second. We're not the first Christian Like we call that progressive but it's actually ancient. Yeah.
Dennis Drake:I love that you said that. Thank you so much. That is so good Yeah.
Heather Drake:So then I bring up an ancient prophet who said stop, stand at the crossroads, ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and there you will find rest for your souls. I think our souls are tired And so being able to say where's the rest? The rest is in the ancient paths, the rest is in the invitation to spirit. And again I keep going back to we've had this conversation over and over again When Jesus gifted the church its power or this. Here's a gifting, here's what you're starting on. He gifted us spirit. He didn't gift us a text, he gifted us part of himself.
Brad Nelson:Yeah, Oh, it's so good.
Dennis Drake:Yeah, well, let it transform us, and I think that's good for today.
Heather Drake:Thank you, Brad. We appreciate you taking time right out before you.
Dennis Drake:Thank you guys, this is way fun, it is isn't it?
Heather Drake:Yeah, you've been listening to Season 2 of the So Much More Podcast with Dennis and Heather Drake. We want to take a moment and express our sincerest thanks for the investment of your time And if you're interested in continuing conversation or more information about what we discussed, please email us at so much more podcast at gmailcom. If you're interested in some of the creative projects that Dennis has done, you can find out more information at drakinsonscom or find us on Twitter at so much more podcast. We'd love to hear from you.