So Much More
This is a conversational style podcast discussing every manner of things regarding art, family, small business, parenting, and spirituality. Dennis and Heather have been married for 32 years, which is no small feat, parents of five children, and musicians and artists. Imagine overhearing lots of conversations.
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So Much More
Exploring Love, God, and Self: A Conversation with Jerry Henderson. Part 1
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Have you ever wondered what shapes our understanding of love, self, and God? Join us as we take a thought-provoking journey with our dear friend, Jerry Henderson, exploring these complex questions. Our conversation offers an introspective dive into our spiritual journeys, the deconstruction and reconstruction of our beliefs, and the courage it takes to trust in the divine love that always surrounds us.
Jerry's candid revelations on how our perceptions of God are often mirror images of our experiences, stand out. He helps us delve into the potential pitfalls of such perceptions, leading to unhealthy concepts of love and self. The conversation also leads us to question doctrines and belief systems that may limit our spiritual growth. Together, we dissect Jesus's teachings and how they encourage us to go beyond the confines of our belief systems.
Lastly, we turn the spotlight on the critical yet often neglected aspect of self-love in Christianity. Jerry shares his personal journey from self-loathing to self-love, a powerful testament that echoes within many of us. We discuss the obstacles of shame and self-hatred and how acknowledging our self-worth can lead to a more authentic self. Join us as we revisit the story of original sin, not as a tale of condemnation but as a reminder of our inherent belovedness and worthiness. In this transformative exchange, we endeavor to inspire you to see the hope in the questions
Welcome to season two of so Much More, a lifestyle podcast by Dennis and Heather Drake. So Much More is a podcast based on our lives, eclectic and inspired, one where relationships are honored and invested in. We invite you to join us as we continue a lifestyle and a lifelong discussion.
Speaker 2:I thought it would be real nice to have one of my oldest and dearest friends to be a guest on a podcast. So, jerry Henderson, welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 3:Hey, thank you guys for having me. It's a joy to be here with you. It's a joy, a real joy.
Speaker 4:So let's talk about Jerry for a minute, because we've already introduced ourselves and people kind of know us, or at least they could hop on and figure out who we are. But you met Jerry 30 years ago, I think it was when we were in Tulsa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would have been 20. Yeah, it's just right now, 30 years.
Speaker 4:So we've been having conversations for a long time, and so it's a real gift to have Jerry here and record a conversation, because we're good at talking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's important for people to value the lifelong friendships that you are given and be aware of them, because Jerry and I, of course, met when he was 21 and I was 23. Babies, just small children, and then to think that all these years later we would have a trajectory that is, I don't know, just in a way seems to still be able to relate to each other and experience that we've had, I don't know, seem to edify each other in some capacity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think our lives have mirrored each other in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so you know, when you went to it was of course we worked at Shadow Mountain together and then you were guys were in Bible college and then youth pastoring and I was youth pastoring and you guys were starting a church and then starting a church, and so it's yeah, and then I think also the thoughts right, the journey of faith.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean a lot of natural things kind of lead into that, because to me it was like our fathering children and course ministry and those kind of things were real similar.
Speaker 4:And also disappointments were real, similar for us. So a lot of pain, a lot of real, similar pain.
Speaker 2:No, let's definitely talk about that, but it does kind of, you know, and then even like our upbringing, different, you know we wouldn't want to get any kind of comparison or anything. You had your struggles, I had mine, and I was thinking even today how that kind makes you see, or come to the same conclusions or similar conclusions when you had experiences. So I think that that always helped me to have you as a sounding board to kind of talk about the struggles that we're having. And so I think you know, in this year, this episode of our season of the podcast, I hope for us to be able to talk about some things that will help people on their journey, and so I think the conversations that we might get into today and in future podcasts would hopefully be something that other people could listen in on and connect with, that would help them in the path that they might be going in their life, spiritually or emotionally or whatever.
Speaker 4:One of the things that was important for us is that idea of so much more is such a hopeful thought because for whatever season we're in, if we felt like that was the only thing. But it's such a hopeful thought to think there's so much more. There's so much more love to learn and to give and there's so much more joy to find and to experience and share. And there's so much more. You know, obviously, pain that we'll have to trudge through, but there's so much more and that's in itself is a hope.
Speaker 2:I think buzzword right now is deconstruction.
Speaker 2:People talk about their deconstruction of their spirituality and I don't really like that term necessarily, because it has a negative connotation to it and but I have to admit that, as I look back on my life, I was born into the Catholic denomination and at one point I felt like it wasn't serving me and so I came upon among the Protestants and so that was, needless to say, a deconstruction or a transformation or a shift, or a bomb that went off, you know.
Speaker 2:And then, a few years after that, I went to Bible school and had those experiences and Heather and I got married and we worked at a church and then we were let go from there and another bomb went off. And so, whatever you want to call it, your life has kind of these undoings and we've almost come to not fear them anymore but kind of embrace them as part of what it is to to be a human being and walk on this earth to try to figure out your spirituality, and so maybe there's people listening that are experiencing that as well, and so that doesn't necessarily mean that your world's coming to an end.
Speaker 3:Now, maybe that your world is, just like you said, evolving. Right, because life shows up with these little gifts that in the moment we don't see as a gift, that causes to ask, causes to question, causes to seek, and in that we start to learn what's serving us well, what's not serving us. And then there's the shedding process. Right, and we're really, I think sometimes we're afraid of the shedding process, of shedding something that maybe isn't serving us because at one point it served us, and so we really get stuck on it because we think that that thought or that way of seeing something is going to serve us the same way throughout our life. Right, and what maybe served me at 21 years old as a new father, new Christian, because I didn't grow up in the church, I grew up in a non-believing family.
Speaker 3:My first introduction was at the age of 17 to the gospel. That's when I made a decision to become a Christian. And as I've evolved in life, I think God has given gifts along the way that at the moment I didn't see as a gift. But as I look at it now, those are the things that say hey, there's a challenging moment, a painful moment that is going to ask you to have the courage to look at what you believe and really say does this serve me? And if it's not serving us, sometimes we're really afraid to let that go because of the control that we think that in believing something in a certain way provides us a sense of security. But the reality is there is not a lot of security and just a belief system in itself. A security is found in that dynamic relationship with our creator.
Speaker 2:You know, I'd like to talk a little bit more about what you said about that idea of shedding some things that used to give you security but maybe didn't no longer serve you, because I think that Eugene Peterson was talking about how you know where you end up should never be where you started, because you're on a journey.
Speaker 2:And so I remember coming into my spirituality or my Christianity after dabbling maybe more than dabbling with drugs and alcohol and so there was kind of a maybe a sense of fear that I would disappoint God or maybe be cursed by God or punished by God or whatever.
Speaker 2:That kind of served me to, kept me from going out and party and with my friends, right, you know and so in a way that understanding of God, as primitive as it was, served me for that time. But now, as a 54 year old guy, if I'm constantly afraid of God squashing me like a bug, I'm not gonna function well, and so shedding that thing that served me at one time it actually protected me, probably from myself or whatever. So what you know, I wonder how many other things people on a regular basis don't realize they're holding on to that should have maybe been shed a long time ago, or at least maybe now is the time Right yeah, yeah, I mean I know we've talked about our stories and all of our stories having trauma involved in it and, for me, having a traumatic childhood with no real sense of boundaries, no real sense of rules.
Speaker 3:I mean it was just, you know, whatever was really taking place. And so the Christian faith structure gave me a sense of boundaries, control, some sense of safety, and that my view of God at that time was one that wanted to keep me in line, right, but that was probably just from my perspective of what I needed. I gravitated to the rules part of it and the performance part of it, because you know our brains, right, they are constantly looking for what's gonna keep me safe and what is unsafe, and so all those things that I could shame about myself, I could look at certain things or belief systems or ways that I acted and shame myself for it. Or I could look at it and go, hmm, my brain was simply functioning to keep me in a rigid kind of Christianity at that time because it provided a certain level of safety. But as I grow, what was built to be something to serve me actually caused the implosion of my life later, you know, and wow, yeah.
Speaker 4:When you talk about that, it makes me think about this idea that a maturing faith or a maturing life requires us to move out of fear into love. And what does it look like for us to undo a lot of the things that fear taught us and giving up those kind of thoughts for thoughts of what will love teach us in place of what fear taught us?
Speaker 2:You know, I kind of thought, you know what gives me the most kind of energy or excitement about even beginning this podcast for this season would be talking about in the so much more light of thinking, you know, what would my life be like if I could really free myself from that fear of this angry God concept to really understand that he's a loving God, he's grace-filled, you know, and really just kind of meditating on that. And then we were having a conversation last night because I think all of this is coming up organically and you had said it a little differently. Do you remember how you said it last night? Was it about?
Speaker 3:the fact that, when we're, was it the part about us making God in our own image? No well.
Speaker 2:I mean we could talk about that. That was powerful too, but I think more or less you I said, I think you said shame-based gospel to a love.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think that's how you said it Moving from a shame-based belief system to a love-based system, and an experience of that right. So one is a system and a set of beliefs, another is an experience, right? So I could have a construct of what I believe love should be like, and then I will have an experience of what love actually is. And love is an experience, right.
Speaker 2:So as long as.
Speaker 3:I'm in my belief system. Am I really in an experiential loving relationship?
Speaker 4:Well, I know, if you're in your belief system, you are bound to be disappointed. Yes, right, because we all have these different beliefs or ideas of what love should be and how people should treat us if they love us and how God should treat us if God loves us, and what are the requirements for love are. So I agree 100% that moving into and the invitation, I think, from the divine is to move into that experience and out of that mental ascent.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. And so I think that there's doctrine that maybe has served us, and I think that, first of all, we have to realize doctrine are man-made thoughts or concepts that they've gathered from teaching from each other and from their evaluation or study of scripture. And so I think sometimes we hold doctrine as sacred, when only God is sacred, and our interpretation could very well be wrong or short-sighted, or misunderstood. And so I'm really presenting the idea, and I think that's what we're sitting here doing is presenting the idea. Maybe we need to turn loose to some of these things that we thought were super godly, but maybe God has nothing to do with it all, or for whatever reason, they did help you or serve you at one point, but they're not necessarily the highest and best for us. And so, because I know that one of the scriptures I like says that the traditions of man make the word of God of no effect, I got to think that God's word would be perfect in work, but yet there is something that stops that, and it's our beliefs.
Speaker 2:And so oftentimes when I think God cursed you or they talk about God cursing, I have almost a different idea of that. Now it's like well, the curse is my way of thinking, because it's preventing God from doing something awesome about my life, and so I really think that really that is the conversation how do you recognize those things and shed them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it was even where Jesus said that you know you search the scriptures, for in them you think that you find life. So we think we find life in our belief system. If I have a correct construction of a belief system that will provide me with life, that'll give me the road map that I need, where, when you think about how Jesus showed up in the Gospels, he wasn't on the road map that everybody thought he should be on and the experience that everybody was having with him was so different than what they were expecting, so different than the system of religious belief, because you've got folks that you couldn't have found people who thought more firmly that if they knew and understood the scripture or a certain belief system, that that is what was going to serve them. And yet Jesus was saying if your righteousness doesn't exceed that of those who think that that's the way, then how are you going to even enter into or inherit or experience one might say experience the kingdom of God? And so?
Speaker 3:But yeah, I think you're right, you know, back to that image of God thing, right, where, if I create an image of God based off of what my internal belief systems or my experiences are, what I think will serve me, and if I don't trust myself, if I don't love myself, then I might need a God who keeps me aligned right. I might need a God who beats me up, because I think that's what I'm worthy of, versus the core work of when I learn to love myself, when I learn to have trust in myself, which is not a real popular doctrine within religious systems of trusting yourself and loving yourself.
Speaker 3:But you know, christ himself even said you'll receive the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will teach you and lead you and guide you. So if that's the case, when I shed the thought of I can't trust myself, I'm not enough, I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable, I don't love myself, then I begin and I know it was powerful for me to understand that then I could experience and have a God that is in the image of love versus God who wanted to keep me aligned because of my system, that I didn't trust myself.
Speaker 4:It's inspiring when you mention that and just keep thinking about the fact how much courage it takes to actually change the way that we think or to answer the invitation to come out of anxiety into this belief that says that we are loved and held no matter what.
Speaker 4:That there is this belovedness that is, in eight and every single person, the image of the divine, and what does it mean for us to tune into, to practice listening to that and living out of that place of sacredness and belovedness and instead of the fear or the anxiety that rules and tells us this is how you should or shouldn't go?
Speaker 4:I mean, there's that beautiful imagery in the 23rd Psalm where you have a shepherd, you don't have to fear because you're not alone, and that feeling of aloneness or separateness and how much anxiety that brings to people feeling like God would abandon them, or I mean people, not just in this age, but since people have been writing about God, the prayers always don't leave me, don't abandon me. And then we understand that God does not. The promise of Jesus is Emmanuel, god with us, that God has always been present with us, even in Hagar, in the very beginning of the Jewish Bible, where this story of she's out there and feels alone and God is with her and she sees that and then again she names him the God who sees me, that idea of being seen by the divine at all times. There's so much courage in changing the way that we think about, the courage required to say I'm not. There's just no way for me to be unloved by him.
Speaker 2:Right, you know, and I was really moved when you were speaking about making God in this particular image, because I think a lot of people have pushed back on that idea that we're not like those pagans that would make a false God, you know, by pouring gold and making a calf or whatever, and so we think that instantly that would not apply to us, but just how much of our doctrine is really shaped by this God that we want him to be, and so we are really I mean, I think more than many of us would want to admit have made God in our own image, and so, and again, perhaps it did serve you, but I'm I'm asking that maybe through these conversations he could peel back the layers from our you know, the buildup of doctrine or whatever that we've put on so that we could see who he really is.
Speaker 2:And maybe it's not an angry God, or you know that. You know, because I remember one guy when I was, you know, kind of presenting this idea. He got so angry at me and he was well, you know, if, if God, if you know, if he's not mad at me, then what if I, then I'll just go do whatever I want to do, you know, and he was convinced that that, like holding on to that thing kept him in line and it did. Yeah, right, so it was serving him. But but then the sad thing is, I mean, you never really fall in love with your captor, unless it's Stockholm syndrome. It's not a healthy thing. But I think really to go like, wow, you know, you're not angry at me all the time. I could fall in love more with that God who, who I think isn't. I'm not making him this new God, but I think it's peeling off all the stuff that we added to him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and really cool thought about that too. Right is when did it serve me? When was when? At what point in my life did it serve me to think that I needed somebody to keep me in line, right? So if I, if I look at God in that way and I think, well, if, if God is, is loving and there's this, this kindness, but no, I, I need a God who's going to keep me in life, will probably some point in my life I identified with either an authority figure or a parent that maybe that was how they showed up in my life. And so I'm kind of hardwired, right. My system has been programmed to think that maybe that's how love is expressed. Love is expressed in keeping me aligned or keeping me in that harsh space. And so I have this mental programming and this construct that says I need, I need God to show up that way.
Speaker 3:And then I don't, as we talked about. You know, I don't trust myself. It's difficult for me to love myself. It's so shame based, right, and you know for me that shame led to years of hiding myself, not showing up as my authentic self, playing a character, trying to prove myself and people please, which I still am trying to figure out how to not do that, which led me into 13 years of drinking and, you know, divorces and rehab, to really begin to come to a moment where I could say you know, I am worthy of my own love. And to be able to give that. Because I had to shift what I thought God viewed me as, because I viewed him in a certain way, which meant that I felt like he viewed me in a certain way, which then, as I begin to understand love, that I think that concept of love starts to untangle everything.
Speaker 4:Agreed, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:When you start hitting on love, all the things start to come into a process.
Speaker 4:I would have said my entire journey of religion, devotion, spirituality. I would have sworn to you that it was about love. I mean, I could tell you the verses about love I would have, I would have directed you, but then I would have said but love does this, love requires this. And then, really coming to this, unraveling that love does not coerce. There is no coercion in love. Love just loves, because that's what love does. That begins to pull out the pins when you have constructed a deity who has a lot of requirements. Yeah, instead of saying just, we're delighted in, we're made in God's own image, god delights in us. We're loved and held and beloved. And finding our way back to that self, that's part of the journey.
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting you talked about that pin because I was just thinking there's many things, even in this conversation, but conversations that we've had and we'll have, there's lynch pin issues, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Are things that you know, once you kind of get a breakthrough or or begin to deal with that, all the dominoes start falling or all the tumblers get falling in place or or whatever. And you, you said just a moment ago I mean that is such a loaded statement You'll begin to love myself. Because you know there's a spiritual and I don't want to I use that term loosely or, like a Christian, I use that term loosely kind of a pushback on anyone saying love yourself, because it feels very selfish and fundamentally wrong. But then we can't argue with the words of Christ, you know, and you know, and he's saying that all the laws fulfilled in loving your neighbor as yourself. So there clearly is this importance and, and I think it could be easily understood that I'm really never going to love any people any better than I love myself.
Speaker 2:And when I, when I have shame or I I don't, I wouldn't say for me it's shame as much as I've had an outright disdain for me most of my life. Yeah, and there's just this and I mean I'd never really admit it, but just this, just disgust about me, you know, and it was from failing, because failing meant pain, failing meant embarrassment, you know just, you know any of my weakness or shortcoming made me look less than a man, and I just didn't need that kind of spotlight shine on how I already felt about myself. So there's just, you know, the the. You turn it in other, different ways sometimes, to drink, drinking drugs or whatever.
Speaker 2:For me it was just outright meanness and anger towards everyone around me, because if I'm that hard on myself, my kids don't have a chance, my wife doesn't have a chance, and so you know, those are, those are big statements that you're making. You know, so casually, jerry, love myself. You know, I mean I'm like, you know, I feel people could push back on that, but I mean we know fundamentally that's what Christ is saying, and so it's a bigger deal maybe than we've ever made it, and somehow it just it gets swept to the side in the average Christian walk or spiritual journey, and to me it's the lichman, yeah Well the challenge is right, we, this, we, we walk around with it.
Speaker 3:Thought there's something wrong with us, a lot of us right, and there's this thing of no, there's something wrong with me. So if I start to love myself, then I'm going to take that to the most wrong side of that right.
Speaker 3:I'm going to overly indulge them to become selfish. Well, but if you understand that loving yourself isn't going down a rabbit hole of self-destruction or it's not going down a rabbit hole of, you know, not loving others, it's actually returning to who we actually authentically are. I love what Richard Rohr talks about the original blessing. Right, we focus so much on our original sin, but there is the original blessing where God said you are good, very good, and what was the original sin, so-called in the Old Testament in the Garden of Eden? It was don't eat this tree, because in the moment that you do right, you're going to know the difference between. It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, right.
Speaker 3:And I wonder if in that there was the classification that we then did, which is these are the good parts about me and these are the bad parts about me. And we and ourselves constructed that identity that there's this really bad stuff about me and there's really this, this good stuff about me. And when we focus in on the shame that just starts to show up in our lives a lot more, and realizing that, no, even God said very good, and then you know, you see it through. Like you said love your neighbor as you love yourself. And just from my story, it's just mine. In rehab last day there was this little graduation ceremony and it was other saying words of affirmations about me, and then I had to say a word of affirmation about myself. How hard was that?
Speaker 3:Oh, it was so hard right, because what I did in my drinking was to quiet the noise about hating myself. I drank so I could tolerate my own presence, right, so I could just be with even myself and not like hating myself. In those moments and that thought of there's something wrong with me fundamentally and I know a lot of people resonate with that sense and that feeling and I as I it was really hard to make that statement or to say something positive about myself. But the words that came just almost out of my soul were I am worthy of my own love. Wow, and that shifted something in me then made me go on a journey of why did I not believe that I was? Why did I believe that I was unworthy of my own love?
Speaker 3:Because as long as I believed I was unworthy of my love, I didn't feel comfortable receiving God's love. There was a barrier because my system internally wasn't comfortable with love, because I couldn't give love to myself. I couldn't receive love from others because I fundamentally didn't believe I was worthy of love. Goes back to childhood stuff. But it also went into my Christian faith system of what I believed and what I thought it was supposed to do in order to be loved by God. I attached a tube. My existence needed justification, and so I needed to do certain things in order to prove my love and my worthiness. And then, as I realized that no.
Speaker 3:I'm love because I draw breath. I'm love because I was made and, yeah, I think people push back on that thought of loving ourselves because we're so hardwired to not love ourselves, but it's the most freeing thing that I've experienced in my life.
Speaker 4:I was talking to Nathaniel a couple of weeks ago and he was joking with me, but he said could he go work out on Sabbath and cause he goes to the gym and does his workout? And I said, oh, I think that would be amazing for you, because I know how much you love it and I know how much joy it brings you and just it helps you. And I said remember, that's what the Sabbath is all about to remind us. It's not any productivity, it's not anything we do, it's just a day to remember You're being held, you're being loved, you're being provided for, you are being cared for, just because you exist.
Speaker 4:And so I think that for a long time in Christian faith, people have maybe I forgot to mention that- that that day could be a day set aside every single week just to remember your belovedness, just to remember joy, just to remember nothing I do matters in a bed. I mean, obviously, things we do matter, but I just mean that's not the reason I'm loved or cared for or worthy, that just my own being is worthiness.
Speaker 2:You know, when you're talking about this kind of a thing, you know there's always that treachery, yeah, nervousness that we're getting new agey now, next thing you're gonna be smoking weed and dropping acid or something like that. And you know, and I'm reminded things. I don't know why. It just helps me, it makes me feel more grounded or connected when I see things in scripture that are just so blatantly exactly what we're talking about, because this is not trippy stuff, that just is a new agey thing and I think that's a clever trick of the enemy to keep people away from like their truest self and really having that kind of self love. That would inspire us to truly love other people and truly love God, you know. But for us to kind of think that's exactly what Paul was struggling with in Romans seven and then eight. Are we inherently evil? Are we inherently good?
Speaker 2:You know, I was preaching every for like three or four years I was. I did once a month. I did this little. I don't know what kind of a church it was some denominational church. I did there. You know what's a chapel for the kids in the school and I preach that you're good. You know, out of out of Roman seven there and they never let me back in the church again.
Speaker 2:And little sixth graders were standing up rebuking me because they just that didn't compute in their doctrine. You know that we're scum, right, that we're all garbage. God's mad at you and he'll just, I don't know, I guess he'll just let you in. But so sick of you, you know, and it's like wait a minute, you know, paul sitting there going, you know I do what's wrong, but it's not me, it's sin in my flesh, you know, but I, you know, so I'm, I'm, you know, made good and I'm, you know, but it's, and I'm not evil, but I do evil thing. So he struggled with this kind of thing and we and we realized that that that's all part of this kind of coming to a realization, that that we are worth love, we're worth you know, yeah, and it seems to be the thing where one of the things that we're really afraid of, the concept of true self love, and, like you said, we'll, we'll actually go.
Speaker 3:Oh, that sounds new age, you. Well, why would you let, why would you brand it that way and let that experience be robbed from you because of a label that, well, it could be this thing over here. When you see the theme through scripture as love and, as you begin to really understand, made in the image of God, okay, and you really begin to look at the fact that you know are, I think, fundamentally, humans are good and humans are love. That's where the image of God. So therefore we and God is love. So therefore we're love and as we put the emphasis, we go well, why is there evil in the world? Why is all this?
Speaker 3:Well, if we focus our energy you know what they talk about in neuroscience that where you place your attention and where you place is where you place your energy and the thing that we're focusing on. We're just feeding it so much more that if we were to say, well, maybe I'll focus in on the love and the goodness that's inside of me, maybe that begins to grow and I become more by just naturally focusing on that. That just becomes more of who I am and I'm not, you know, trying to. You know, focus on getting rid of these bad things of me. I'm just trying to figure out how do I let the authentic me shine.
Speaker 3:Which is authentic me is love. We talk out of two sides of our mouth. Right, it was like, well, we're made in the image of God and God is love, and we're fearfully and wonderfully made and you know all these and love your neighbor as yourself. Well, I have to love myself first, but there's like I don't know.
Speaker 3:But we're, we're fundamentally bad, we're horrible sinners because of the fall, and you know the stuff, and it's like now maybe we've just placed so much focus in that in our life, that that's what we just keep seeing and what we keep gravitating towards, and as we place the emphasis on love, that that's what begins to show up more in our life.
Speaker 2:I can almost hear people pushing back on what we're saying right now, and that's okay. But I do think again if you don't turn loose, there's some stuff that's not serving you. You're never really going to move into what God has for you, and I don't think anything that we're saying is not. Uh, it doesn't bring hope and bring Christ.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to season two of the so much more podcast with Dennis and Heather Drink. We want to take a moment and express our sincerest thanks for the investment of your time and if you're interested in continuing conversation or more information about what we discussed, please email us at so much more podcast at gmailcom. If you're interested in some of the creative projects that Dennis has done, you can find out more information at drakinsonscom or find us on Twitter at so much more podcast. We'd love to hear from you.