The SAF Podcast

The SAF Podcast: Exolum - Throwing SAF a pipeline

• SAF Investor • Season 3 • Episode 1

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In the second episode of The SAF Podcast, we delve into the critical yet often overlooked logistics and supply chain challenges facing the sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) industry with Gorka Penalva from Exolum, a leading pipeline and storage infrastructure company. 

With nearly 90 years of experience in hydrocarbon logistics and over 6,000 kilometers of pipeline across Spain and the UK, Exolum brings unique expertise to the SAF transportation discussion.

Gorka highlights the urgent need for investment in import logistics and blending infrastructure, particularly as SAF production projects aren't expected to come online until the 2030s and beyond. He emphasizes the importance of creating efficient import systems to meet mandates in the interim, while making airports more competitive through optimized logistics costs.

The conversation explores the environmental benefits of pipeline transport versus road freight, with Gorka revealing that moving product through their pipeline network from Avonmouth to Immingham saves as much CO2 as a flight to New York. We also discuss the technical challenges of SAF blending, including its impact on pipeline infrastructure and engine components, and how Exolum's experience in sophisticated fuel blending positions them to handle these challenges.

The episode concludes with insights into regional differences in SAF adoption, the implications of book and claim systems on physical infrastructure development, and the broader challenges of scaling SAF logistics to meet both growing aviation demand and increasing SAF mandates globally.

If you enjoyed this catch our previous discussion with CR Sincock, Avfuel discussing business aviation supply logistics and expanding capacity across the US: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2202964/episodes/16057604

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the SAF podcast. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Gorka Penalva from Excelem. Gorka, how are you?

Speaker 2:

I'm very well and thank you very much for the invitation, oscar. I appreciate it. I have to make a confession for starters, and that this is my first ever podcast, so I'm very excited and nervous at the same time, is it?

Speaker 1:

Well, we will keep it relaxed, we'll keep it chilled out and hopefully after five minutes you'll forget we're recording a podcast. That's the plan. That's that's the plan. So today we're going to be talking about issues around supply chain and SAF, the investment needed in that space, whether it's being considered enough, because obviously a lot of the mainstream media news is taken up by issues around initial production, as obviously it's a, it's a massive part of the part of the problem. And we're also going to be looking at other things like blending logistics and um issues around book and claim relating to physical movement of soft molecules. But, gawker, you're starting for, as it were, do you think there's enough consideration from the SAF industry globally to the supply chain logistics element in terms of building out the SAF capacity?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think logistics, we're like that annoying friend who knows the bouncer, so he's always invited along. We are always the last thought, I'm afraid to say, but it's been set like that forever. We're more of a cost for everybody for all those big investments. We are a big cost infrastructure. We are a big cost infrastructure and people normally remember us when they do hit a problem or they start thinking more into the detail and sometimes that detail comes way past the original investment proposal. So, no, there's not enough thought given to the logistics and given to this type of infrastructure. But again, it is something we work with, it's something we know about and it's something that you know, we've experienced for a long time because it's happened with SAP, but it's happened throughout. You know, it's always happened forever in the hydrocarbon industry, which is really where we come from.

Speaker 1:

Do you want to explain a bit more about Exelum's background before we get on? Where's Exelum's raison d'etre as?

Speaker 2:

it were. We're nearly a 90-year-old company. Actually, we started being the pipeline owner for Spain. Over there, we have nearly over 50 terminals, ports, and they're all interconnected. We have a multi-product line which basically allows for the 4,000 kilometers worth of pipeline which really allows for the movement of all the products from one place of the peninsula to the other. That was in 2014,. The international expansion started for the company as more international funds began to be in the ownership and that's when we bought the government pipeline here in the ownership and that's when they bought. We bought the um government pipeline here in the in the uk, consisting of 2 000 kilometers and connecting basically the the most important airports or the biggest airports in in in the country and um and also, uh, some refineries and import terminals.

Speaker 2:

The difference is that primarily in the UK we are a jet pipeline, while in Spain is more multi-product, it's actually completely multi-product. So that took us on to 2020, when CLH at the time bought Interterminals just for two reasons. One is to expand internationally even more because Interterminals had terminals in Amsterdam and in Mannheim, germany, and also because we wanted exposure to other products away from oil and chemicals, which also Interterminals had a big footprint. And from then on we rebranded in 2021 to Exelum, because our goal was to really keep growing and actually to reduce our carbon footprint was the most obvious thing to do was actually to start moving into new vectors, and those new vectors were hydrogen biofuels. And those new vectors were hydrogen biofuels and obviously sap being part of that, uh that biofuel um group.

Speaker 1:

So you guys have got great experience across spain, in the uk and elsewhere. In this sort of the movement of molecules is where you guys are experts it's our expertise and and really is our core business.

Speaker 2:

We do have another terminal which has just recently been acquired, which is more in Houston, but that's ammonia, which is again, it takes us that step further down the road, which is where we want to head. But, yeah, we move a lot of molecules everywhere and that's our expertise, and we want to head, but, yeah, we move a lot of molecules everywhere and and and that's our expertise and um, and we want to remain that way. We don't see ourselves as producers, we don't see ourselves as consumers, we see ourselves as just a logistic provider, an independent logistic provider, which we think we it adds a lot of value to our customers, um, and a lot of trust as well.

Speaker 1:

We've had a couple of episodes looking at the supply chain. We did one with a specific blending technology company. We've done one with AvFuel, who do a lot of business aviation as well as commercial logistics in the US and globally as well. But I'd like to ask the question about where does investment need to go in the supply chain to make it suitable for the growing SAF industry? Where do you think it's? The supply chain's not currently where it should be or needs to be?

Speaker 2:

well, yeah, it needs to be initially. It needs to be initially. It needs to be more into the import logistics, it needs to be more into the blending, as you say, so much more of a sophisticated infrastructure entering the network, shall we say Once in the network. I think we are well developed. I mean, we have 2,000 kilometers worth of pipeline here in the UK and SAF, we know that can be transported along with JET as a blended product, or even in batches if you wanted to, as long as they were blended at the other end. So I think the infrastructure is really lacking investment right now, at its entry point, shall we say.

Speaker 1:

And how would you see sort of looking at production levels for 2024, end of last year, beginning of this year? I also said it was less than 1.5 million tonnes globally. How do you see the priorities in terms of attacking the supply chain versus attacking the fundamental issue of getting production up, because there's a lot of issues around policy uncertainty, lack of investment in terms of that production scope. Do you think there's capacity to attack both these problems simultaneously? Or do you think there needs to be more acceleration on the production side to sort of jumpstart the supply chain side, or vice versa?

Speaker 2:

Well, we have the mandates and we know what the growth in demand for air fuel or it is going to be, so we know there's a shortage in the UK for sure that we're going to face Now. We also see a lot of production projects coming online. We have, you know, we meet with people once every two weeks and it's great to see, it's great to see a lot of momentum in the production. My only concern is that when I sit down with them and I ask them for a timeline, nobody comes before 2032, at least. And you know it is important to look down the road, see how you know we can have certainty of supply and it's good to be able to produce your own molecules and not depend on other suppliers outside the UK. But it means that it doesn't take away the fact that we still need to meet mat dates between now and when those production lines come on stream, and that is why we can't. We really have to keep focus on we need to import a lot of product and we need to import, and and the more we invest in that import, the more infrastructure we create, the more sophisticated in those inputs can be, because then then we go into an another episode and another. So we say chapter of the imports. You know you can import finish grade jet um to, because everyone changes.

Speaker 2:

I'm not sure what jet now means, uh, jet with saf or saf with hbc. You know however you want to call it, but we need to be able to supply the airports within the mandate and it just means that the more logistics, more efficient we are logistically importing them, the cheaper it will be to import those products. I mean, ultimately we're talking about a very high value product and sometimes you know every penny counts, and high value product and sometimes you know every penny counts. And you know if we can get bigger ships, if we can get more blending. You know, ultimately and this brings me to another point you know when you blend SBC into jet, into mineral jet, you know you're not really blending to the mandate percentage of SBC you blend into it. You know, you know greenhouse gas, uh level. So it means that whatever type of sbc you're using, it will give you more or less and and that's where we see the, the the market in. You know where we give the option to customers to say, look, you can bring a, b or c type of sbc and one day you might want to use b, another day you might want to use c, and by having that infrastructure it allows you to, you know, to use the best product that you think at that time.

Speaker 2:

And if you take it even a step further and you kind of assimilate it to other products that are now a lot more mature, let's say gasoline or even fuel oil, where blending is key to its final production, you know we should build or we should try and target kind of ports in a similar way that we see in the ARA. You know, if you have various customers, if we have various players so we say not customers, not seeing it from my side, but seeing it from the industry side if you can see that they can work with each other, in the sense, create some kind of hub, trading hub around ports with good access. It will mean that import will be cheaper, the product will be able to be blended cheaper and ultimately you know that product can reach the end consumer, you know, at a much lower price and it's all efficiencies. And then you become more, more, more, let's say more efficient in an international, international market. Because again, that's another thing and sorry I'm going off too long for this question.

Speaker 2:

But you know, when a plane has the option to you know to load, yet in the UK or in Madrid or in Paris, it would choose the cheapest option. So if we make the logistics very complex here, if you make it very expensive and you make the product, you know you make that final refueling more expensive, which means that it's not that it's going to be more expensive that market will disappear or it could disappear. You know, ultimately there is going to be a little bit of an arbitrage there. Always expensive is that market will disappear or it could disappear. Ultimately there is going to be a little bit of an arbitrage there always. But structurally we should make our airports as competitive as possible and to do that you need to move all the way up the chain. That chain one day will be the production here.

Speaker 1:

But until we reach that stage, which is still a long, but until we reach that stage, which is still a long way, you know it is that infrastructure which will allow imports to be cheaper and this is sort of leans into sort of using pipelines as opposed to sort of transporting it by lorries or containers wherever possible, because it has great economic benefit for the cost of staffF to the end user, to the airlines or whatever, but also it's got great GHD benefits as well, because it's a much greener way of transporting it through this existing pipeline system as well, isn't it? So you want to be able to be in a position where you can get SAF from a refinery to an airport through pipelines as cheaply and economically as possible and being as green as possible. That's like the gold standard, what, what everyone's aiming for in the logistics space well we should work from.

Speaker 2:

We should work from the point that we are doing all this to produce less CO2, right? So if you see a truck, kill me if I got it wrong, because I'm not good at these numbers, but I understand that a truck will produce like 1.2 kilos of CO2 per kilometer. Now if I bring that calculation to how much it costs CO2-wise to move product on a pipeline from Avonmouth to immingham, where I have my two extremes of the pipe, that would, I think that saves as much co2 as a flight to new york. Now, that is a lot of co2, but I mean it makes sense, right? Um, there's no point having over 200 000 lorries or trucks in the in the motorways.

Speaker 2:

You know, when you see people moving SBC from I don't know Belgium to Bristol, you're going to think by truck, it's going to think, well, how much does that CO2 produce? So you know we need to, we can't lose the sight. You know the fact that you know we're doing this in order to reduce CO2. So we should always try and use be as efficient as possible, and I mean we see this, I mean we see this in a scope, uh, you know scope. Uh, one, two and three, that's the whole, the whole aim that we can't. We always keep on track to make sure that we do it efficiently, but also we do it with a minimum amount of GHC.

Speaker 1:

And how does so? You said earlier that your business in Spain is sort of market leading. You transport not just jet fuel but multiple different products through pipelines there. How can sort of the expertise from there, how can that help in sort of transitioning into multi-products transport in the uk and other areas where you're where you're active and looking to sort of expand your, your staff capacity as well?

Speaker 2:

well, it comes two ways. I think that I mean the expertise there especially is being able to work with batches. Now, I don't think the UK batches will be that important. You know, mass balance allows us to basically, you know, put in the SAF at whatever point of entry we want right, and so I think our expertise becomes very important when it comes to blending. We have our terminal in Amsterdam, for example, or a terminal in Barcelona.

Speaker 2:

We've been blending gasoline, which is a very sophisticated product to blend for years, fuel oil. The same Fuel oil even has a wider range of products that you can actually put into the finished product, and we've been doing that for a lot of years. So that you know, being able to blend a light product, being able to blend a heavier product, kind of allows you to give you the expertise and the knowledge of how to do this. Obviously, we're talking SVC, we're talking jet, we're talking products which are very similar. But again, it's very risky and very important to not go over the, over the um, over the limit, because you know it has a long lasting effect. You know, we know that too much uh, saf in well, too much spc shall we call it in the product you know it's going to affect. It is lubricity and it's going to affect my pipeline. It's going to affect well, sorry, excellent spotlight. It's going to affect your pipeline.

Speaker 1:

If you want, you can lay down you've got to be responsible for it, though well, yeah, okay, it's a big.

Speaker 2:

Okay, because you know when things go wrong, you do go wrong big, but um, no, but you know, talking to uh, to people at airbus, you know they're saying I was saying to them what are you so concerned about um, about uh, saf? Because ultimately your engine is going to be the same. I mean to. I think that is a great example of how to make an industry green. What we're doing with uh, with the air industry, you know we're not changing engines, we're not changing the plane at all. What we're changing is actually the, the material that goes into it, because it's much easier and better for the, for the end consumer. And so why is it affecting?

Speaker 2:

You say, well, actually this lubricity is key to us because you know it means that you know the, the life of the components in in that engine and it is, is, it's going to be a lot limited and for us it's the same. Our valves, our pumps, they're going to, it's going to limit. So you know, blending, blending stuff correctly, is going to be important. It's not critical in the sense that you know it. You know we're talking 10, 2 percent now, we're talking up to 10 percent, so it's not going to make a big difference. But it is, firstly, more expensive. So you need to hit, you need to blend as little as you have to, otherwise you know you're going to be for you know, going to be pushed out of the market very quickly. But also you need to be safe and that's for us, as a company, is the number one priority, before anything else.

Speaker 1:

You know, know the quality of the product and the safety are your pipelines like aircraft engines in the sense that the blending of the SAF is required to sort of maintain its integrity, because obviously the argument about not using 100 is that the the seals in the engine could dissolve and could be affected by 100 south or over 50? Is that a similar problem you have for across your supply chain and something that, as blending restriction, as blending goes up towards sort of 100 south? Is that something you have to sort of consider going forward or is that not not consideration you need to worry about?

Speaker 2:

No, it is a consideration. It's going to reduce the life of our assets Not considerably, but we do see it with other products. We see it, for example, with MTBE. It's more corrosive, so we need to change seals, we need to change pumps. But again, this process of blending more and more into it, it kind of gives us enough time to be able to, you know, adapt the system and when the time comes, when you know we reach that 50%, we can be very sure that nothing is going to, you know, nothing's going to start leaking.

Speaker 1:

And have you seen, is there sort of a difference between sort of the different regions you're active in sort of Spain and Northwestern Europe, uk in terms of the attitude, the urgency from people you're working with because obviously you speak to, you know you mentioned Airbus and you've got presumably you're talking sort of airports, airlines, producers, all the different stakeholders. Is there sort of a sort of global sort of urgency to sort of solving this SAF problem? Are you seeing sort of certain pockets or regions acting in a more urgent manner in this towards sort of solving this working towards the SAF problem?

Speaker 2:

No, I think that everyone is more or less at par on that. I think everybody wants to get as much SAF as the mandates require. Everyone wants to be able to produce it locally as quickly as possible. Now, as I said before, there will be arbitrage between Europe and the UK because of the mandates. I think that the UK will attract more SAF at the beginning because obviously, the penalties are much higher. Hi, I hear so, but I think that the urgency is still there. Everyone wants to meet it. There's not enough product around, or there is enough product, there's not that much product around. And also, the last person buying the last molecule is going to pay infinitely more than the first person. So you know, everyone wants to be sure that they are ready for it.

Speaker 1:

And what about book and claim? How do you see that? Because a lot of the argument around book and claim is that moving SAF over long distance doesn't make sense from a greenhouse emissions point of view. So if you can move it a shorter distance and then claim the environmental credit somewhere else in the world and separate those different sustainable and economic benefits from the molecule itself, and do you think that's had a detrimental effect to actually looking at the supply chain problem? Because everyone thinks they can just sort of you know, book and claim and you can sort of get the SAF certificates and then move on. Do you think that's had any effect in terms of that conversation going forward?

Speaker 2:

It is going to have a massive effect. It's very different if you've got to put a ton of SAF at Heathrow or you can just put it up in Killing Home and forget about it. I think that, um, the way we, the way we function in Europe, uh, at least the one we function in Spain and the UK, where we, when we have mass bad well, when we have a mass balance, shall we say I know it's not broken claim, but, um, we have a pipeline that actually works. One of his main advantages that we work like a banking system, I think that trying to change it into you know, you have to trace molecules is it would put everything upside down, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I mean, if you go to the US, where pipelines work in batches, where actually is your molecule the one you put in and it's your molecule the one you pick up the other end? I think it will increase logistic costs considerably, I think for us. I don't think we would be ready, for we could be, we could get ready, we could, we would. I mean, the system is there to be able to trace the molecule, but I don't think it will be efficient enough and I think that the problem is complex enough already in order to bring that variable in and so, looking at sort of your, your business as a whole, um, as you in Spain, you transport multiple different products through your pipeline and obviously SAF is a big aspect going forward.

Speaker 1:

How does sort of SAF growth and sort of the adapting and ability to cope with the growth of SAF fit into the sort of the overall business growth? Is it sort of a key pillar of ongoing business growth to sort of be able to deal and cope and work out staff or and? Or are you working sort of alongside lots of other biofuels or, um, just, you know, regular jet fuel?

Speaker 2:

well, I mean, we're obviously working along with jet fuel, we're working along other biofuels. I think that the energy mix is going to be that mix. So we have to work with everything and we're ready to work with everything. I mean, we recently did a trial of LAOHC for hydrogen, for hydrogen, and actually allowed us to transport, you know, in a multi-product pipeline, oil pipeline which is, you know, so we can do absolutely everything there.

Speaker 2:

Now what SAF brings to us as a business is the possibility of having this new product which requires new services and, you know, indentment of others which slowly are going to be going away.

Speaker 2:

For example, if we have gas oil, obviously we have to have HVO. That's a very much one-to-one change, but here it's different. I mean, I'm pretty excited about this, about SAF, because you would have thought that mineral jet is going to decrease, but that's not the case. You cannot say, well, I'll use these tanks which I now use for mineral jet, I'll use it for SAF. You can't do that because you still need as much mineral and you're going to be needing more because the market is going to grow you know that much higher. So for us, saf is very important and that's why we have focused considerably on it because it's growing. It's a difficult product to deal with in the sense that it needs to be blended, and we have the expertise, so I think we can add a lot of value to the whole supply chain is the predicted growth for aviation travel over the next five, ten years?

Speaker 1:

is is remarkable sort of globally, or if you want to break it down to region, it's consistently going up at a rapid rate. And alongside that you've got this issue about the growing saf mandates, if you're talking sort of Europe and UK, or just the voluntary requirements for SAF, if you're talking global. They are still scaling at a rapid pace. So balancing those two scale-ups must be the biggest headache for you guys. How do you sort of get that many molecules of whatever you're transporting for whatever transport services?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I mean for us, obviously, you know getting, we know we never the ownership or the owner of the molecule. So for us, you know, getting hold of the molecule is not the problem. But for me, when I look at every project that comes through the door, my first question is you know, how guaranteed is your supply, your raw material supply? Because that is you need to. Either you know, either it's the supplier who's doing the project or it's actually somebody in your venture, that supplier doing the project, because they need to have as much skin in the game as possible to be able to guarantee that supply. So for us it's key. Now I do think that the problem is is there enough product? Now, I think the mandate is good in the sense that it obviously realizes that and Heifer is going to be there for a while. I'm not an expert, I haven't done the numbers myself to be able to to see if there's going to be enough alternative like non-heifer, to meet the the requirements that are there. So, yeah, I mean, that's somebody who's run the numbers, who can tell you what you know, whether they'll be sufficient.

Speaker 2:

Now my concern around all this is how long, as an industry, we take to make decisions, as in investments. You know, obviously now in 25, we're talking about to get something of. You know to get something producing you need around seven, eight years. That's too long. And also when you know actual something producing you need around seven, eight years, that's too long. And also when you know actual building is about two years, you know we need to be able to streamline that decision now. I know it's difficult because we're talking billions.

Speaker 2:

Every time you can look at a project, we're looking at joint ventures, where you have not one board but two boards or even three boards of directors having to agree. And you know, we know, we, we've all known that. You know every time you take a project upstairs, somebody's got to ask a question because otherwise they're not doing their job and normally that it takes a while to answer and then you have to go back. So we have to streamline those processes in order to be able to be, you know, to assure ourselves that we're going to be and we're going to have sufficient supply. Uh, when the time comes, when you know that heifer gets cut, you know, to those levels where you know it could actually be a concern not sure when that will be, I'm afraid to say um, an interesting thing that happened for you guys the December last year was you got a rather substantial sustainable loan, which is sort of great news.

Speaker 1:

I think it was in the region, sort of 500 million from memory. Please correct me if I'm wrong in that, but could you just elaborate? You know that was a huge undertaking and it's a, it's a massive investment and what is that predominantly for?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I had to ask it because the clues in the name saff investor had to ask you about, about that so, um, no, I mean, you know that when you ask for a loan, they ask you for what it's for obviously we're talking more, we're looking more. As for a grasp type of perspective, so it we cannot pinpoint it to a saf investment per se. It is a more regionalistic thing.

Speaker 1:

It's obviously a green, um green loan, which means we will spend it on green, uh, on green factors, but all around grass so it's just a sort of a green topco loan for across the business and there might be a SAF potential application within that, but it's not exclusively for SAF or any particular aspect of your business. But it still allows you development of your sustainable capacities across the across the business.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean you have to understand that, as a business ourselves, we we want to focus on biofuels, because that's going to be kind of the next step in fuels, but also we need to look a little bit further ahead. You know, hydrogen projects we need to invest in, we're going to invest in ammonia, as we just did, and that, unfortunately, to make a big, you know, to make a significant step up, you need to. You know you need quite a lot of money. So, um, that's basically the reason why. Um, it is no specific, as I said, it's a grasp, kind of generalistic, kind of uh loan and uh, not being a financial expert, I'm, I don't want to get into any, uh, don't want to say anything which might not be right. So that's basically that's how I've understood it.

Speaker 1:

That's totally fair enough. One more question before we go, before we wrap up what about SAF in particular, is currently giving you the biggest headache in your sort of day-to-day Now?

Speaker 2:

it's the allocation of resources, shall we say, in the sense that, as I said, we do have a lot of people coming through the door asking for logistics, which, firstly, is encouraging because, finally, they come to us at the beginning and not at the end, so there's time for us to actually look at the opportunities. But obviously, I can't.

Speaker 1:

Who are those people? I can't say. Who are those people. I can't say Most of them come with.

Speaker 2:

You know, we have to sign NDAs with them, but I think we all know who, we all know the name of the projects that are around, especially those that are a little bit more mature. It's worth a try. Sorry, I had to try. No, that's fine, that's fine, I want to try. No, that's fine, that's fine, I want to try this thing. Uh, now, um, what I basically means that I don't have enough people to look at every single one as much as I would have liked. Also, um, you know, when you, for me it's very difficult. I mean my, my, my past, my far, far away path as a trader I have. You know, business development takes a lot of patience, which I am working on, and you know it's keeping the energy when they say to you yeah, but we'll bring the first molecule in 2032. It's like that's a long time away. So, yeah, for me it's getting my head around the timeframes.

Speaker 1:

That's been the most difficult thing so far well, I think there are a lot of people that are hoping these time frames come down. I think the industry needs it and is clamoring for it, and hopefully we can um try and speed things up so you can start thinking four years in the future rather than seven I would absolutely love that because you know, for me, we're an infrastructure company.

Speaker 2:

I mean we're not the fastest people, we're not in the fastest part of the the chain does, for sure, right. So you know, trying to get our hands dirty, we really want to do soon, soon and really get involved in this because it, for us, is a big growth factor and something that it is happening now. It's not something that you know that the demand will be there in seven, eight years time. No, we need it now. So for us, it's very exciting that and and and it's great that you know, like other people, like you think that we have to bring this down because that's exactly the way we like, we think but, that being said, if anyone's thinking about making a project and it is seven years long, you'd still probably have a conversation with them well, I will.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, because you know we, we are realistic about this whole thing. I mean, we have a board of directors, we have, uh, we do make big investments. We require a lot of, uh, groundwork and study and engineering. So we, you know that is a core business, as well as transportation. So we know how long these things take and it's unfortunate. We would like it's like you know writing a Christmas list. We just keep our fingers crossed that it happens. So, yeah, I mean for sure that we know that we'll get the bulk of the production coming in the mid, you know, early, 30s.

Speaker 1:

Gorka, that was. That was great fun. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2:

No, I appreciate very much, Oscar, the invitation and please, anytime, please give me a call.