The SAF Podcast

The SAF Podcast : AfriSAF - Tapping into SAF's continental sleeping giant

• SAF Investor • Season 3 • Episode 11

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This week we are joined on The SAF Podcast by Kwame Bekoe, AfriSAF. With over 20 years of aviation experience spanning engineering, sales, and sustainability, Kwame shares his vision for Africa as a major player in the global SAF industry. He discusses how the continent’s vast agricultural residue—estimated at over 150 million tons annually—can be leveraged to produce SAF, fostering energy independence and economic growth.

We examine AfriSAF’s model of integrating smallholder farmers into a data-driven supply chain, using digital platforms and pilot biodigester projects to prove the value of waste-to-energy conversion. Kwame outlines how AfriSAF is targeting scalable SAF production in countries like Ghana, Kenya, Rwanda, Ethiopia and many others. 

What makes this particularly compelling is how it addresses multiple challenges simultaneously. For African nations struggling with energy security, SAF production offers domestic fuel sources at potentially competitive prices – Kwame suggests Africa could be one of the few places where SAF might achieve cost parity with conventional jet fuel. For rural communities facing limited economic opportunities, these projects create meaningful employment that keeps people connected to their agricultural roots while participating in the green economy. And for a continent with the world's youngest population (averaging just 19 years old) that's projected to reach 2.5 billion people by 2050, developing sustainable industries now creates the foundation for long-term prosperity.

The challenges are substantial – from infrastructure limitations to investor risk perception – but the momentum is building. With the African Continental Free Trade Area creating the world's largest open market and continental initiatives promoting easier movement across borders, the conditions for a thriving pan-African SAF industry are emerging. Through strategic partnerships with governments, airlines, and financial institutions, Africa need not just be a consumer of sustainable aviation fuel but could eventually become a significant global producer and exporter.

Want to learn more about SAF development in emerging markets? Join us at SAF Investor London on May 28-29th, and you can find out more here: https://www.safinvestor.com/event/145508/saf-investor-london-2025/


Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the SAF podcast. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Kwame Beko from AfriSAF, and today we're going to be looking at all things SAF production in emerging markets, specifically Africa, and the work that Kwame is doing to help generate the feedstock to enable production to get off the ground, and all the other important component parts that go into getting SAF production commercialized. So, kwame, how are you?

Speaker 2:

I'm doing well, thanks. Thank you very much for this opportunity, Oscar.

Speaker 1:

No, absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us. So before we get into AfriSaf and accelerating Saf production in Africa, do you just want to take us through your background, because you've got quite an interesting journey to sort of how you ended up where you currently are now. So do you want to just take us through that quickly?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure. So I mean I've got about 20 years in aviation experience, did an undergrad in aerospace engineering, a master's at Cranfield in aerospace vehicle design, so I always wanted to get into aviation, started work with Airbus in Bristol working in aircraft wing design, so really focused on tier one structural components, winglets, wing defenses as well, and I was always interested in the business side of aviation. So I moved from engineering into sales and marketing back in 2008, 2009,. Worked as an airline analyst and then as a marketing manager and then eventually worked my way up to a sales director for Airbus and there I was really focused on aircraft sales in Africa primarily, and to some extent across emerging markets, to some extent across emerging markets. From there I moved into GCAS, which was then the largest aircraft lessor who was looking to take a large stake and place a significant amount of exposure in Africa. So I headed up the Ghana office for GCAS for a couple of years.

Speaker 2:

I then moved to Dubai where I took on an additional role as milestone lead also for Africa, so that's mainly with helicopters. And then GECAS sort of wound down and I moved back to Airbus very briefly as they acquired the A220 program and then that was around the pandemic, I moved on. I did my MBA and then, around 2021, in aviation. I think something that a lot of us saw is that sustainability was becoming a much more important driver. Obviously, iata ICAO made these commitments for net zero by 2050. And it was at that point that I joined a SAF producer, zero Petroleum, that actually focuses on the pathway of power to liquid, so I was with them. It was a startup led by Formula One executives for about two and a half years and really just bringing me to the point now where I just see this opportunity for Africa to be a major player in this space.

Speaker 1:

So it's so interesting that you went from sort of the engineering side through marketing sales, had that sort of transition and then did your MBA and now looking at the sustainability side. So that whole journey is so interesting. So why Afrisaf? What doesRISAF do? What do people need to know about it?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think one of the things I tell people is I've got this great passion for aviation, but I've also got a very interesting passion for agriculture Two sectors which are very different, but there are so many similarities between the two of them. And, having lived in Africa, I've had the opportunity to start my own businesses in food and agriculture actually. So I've owned a restaurant, I currently am co-founder of a fintech platform that is focused on agriculture it's like an Uber for agriculture and I'm also involved in sustainable agriculture as well. So, basically, producing agriculture, leveraging the waste to essentially enable full circularity.

Speaker 2:

One of the things I realized is that there's a significant amount of waste in Africa that is produced that is not being leveraged for additional value add, so a lot of the residue after farming is just burnt or just discarded, and we're talking about 150 million tons at least of agricultural residue. I mean, we believe it's significantly much more than that and that's something that our data and our research is going to prove, but we're talking about at least 150 million tons of residue that can go towards the energy transition. So AfriSaf, essentially, is looking to leverage all of this unused residue to help drive the energy transition by producing SAF and other derivatives moving forward. That's the core mission.

Speaker 1:

What sort of restaurant?

Speaker 2:

Yes, my restaurant in Ghana. What sort of restaurant? Yes, my restaurant in Ghana. I've actually exited that business, but I ran it for seven years and it was focused on farm to food type meals and Ghanaian cuisine. So it's based in the center of Ghana, in the capital, and that's what we focused on in the capital and that's what we focused on Sounds amazing.

Speaker 1:

And the 150 tonnes metric that you mentioned, presumably that's just what you can track, and there's so much more beyond that because of the amount of smallholders, smallhold farmers that you just can't get access to data for, so the number could be so much higher than that.

Speaker 2:

I honestly believe it could be up to 300 million tons of ag waste, and that's the challenge. In Africa when it comes to agriculture, you've got about 60, 70% of the market producing the food who are smallholder farmers who are unbanked. They don't really have access to data or anywhere to actually submit data in terms of what they're producing on an annual basis. So this is something that we've actually uncovered in my former businesses that we're actually looking to leverage under AfriSurf by fundamentally creating a market-based platform where people can actually list what they have available and present that to a willing audience of buyers who can actually acquire that feedstock. But also, the data is very useful. It's useful for governments, for investors, financiers, bankers, consultants and academia as well, and, given there's such a big lack of data, we actually believe that the data in and of itself could be even more valuable than the actual residue. So it's a market that we are looking to lead and tap into.

Speaker 1:

How are you finding sort of uptake and interest from these smallholders? Because presumably there are some that go this is a waste product. There are some that go this is a waste product. They don't understand the value of it or why someone would want to buy it and why they need to do this sort of extra bit of admin when they previously would have just burnt it or got rid of it or left it in a pile somewhere. So is there sort of traction with that, getting them engaged in in this new software and this new sort of avenue for their waste products?

Speaker 2:

that's a great question and absolutely there is. So what we've done, initially at a very local level, is we've actually constructed a small pilot project whereby we're actually farming in a sustainable manner, aggregating all of the waste from that farm and actually pulling it in a biodigester which is producing biogas. Now we can actually go further on and refine that biogas to produce a biomethane and we actually use that to power the site. So we're actually demonstrating how ag waste can be converted into energy. And one of the things we've realized is, once you can add value to a farmer, you know they're going to immediately adopt it, because their margins are very thin and it's almost like an airline. Any additional revenue, any kind of ancillary revenue you can add on to the core business, is going to help, you know, with the bottom line. So that's fundamentally how we're incentivizing farmers to come on board and where is that pilot project that you guys have?

Speaker 2:

So it's in the eastern region in Ghana. It's about one hour drive from the capital, accra, and we've actually just completed the initial setup stage of that pilot project. It's now producing biogas at the moment and we hope to inaugurate the plant in about a month's time biogas at the moment and we hope to inaugurate the plant in about a month's time.

Speaker 1:

And are you looking at targeting other countries, areas in Africa where you can sort of replicate and sort of build out this model and, if so, sort of where are those sort of countries that you're either seeing sort of interest from or sort of targeting from a good SAF sort of production standpoint?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so in the past few months, I would say, since we've launched AfriSaf, we've had an enormous amount of interest, overwhelming interest, to understand how people could be part of this value chain and we've used the time to speak to many stakeholders all across Africa and we've actually struck up a number of key partnerships in countries like, for example, rwandaanda, with a green energy producer that is based there that's also closely linked to agriculture and, bear in mind, we're also speaking very heavily to the national carrier and airlines all across Africa.

Speaker 2:

So there's Uganda we're speaking to a large dairy collaborative and cassava collaborative in Kenya as well, to a large dairy collaborative and cassava collaborative in Kenya as well. We're looking at a pilot plant in Tanzania as well through interest we gained through a potential partner there. South Africa we're looking at as well, particularly at the feedstock producing alcohol derivatives, but also the invasive alien species plant, which is actually a crop that can have it to biodiversity in South Africa, that can actually be used as a feedstock to surf. So it's got a great story. So we're also engaged actually with Ethiopia and looking to sign a partnership there as well. So fundamentally, at the moment we're focused on about five to six key African countries. We're looking to refine the model and then essentially just grow from there to other countries. We're able to find partnerships and really just scale up.

Speaker 1:

We should say that AfriSaf began sort of or launched publicly earlier this month, sort of the 2nd of April, was it? So you haven't been operational a month yet, so the amount of interest and discussions you've had with different countries and different people active in the market is amazing, considering the amount of time that you've been publicly operational. You mentioned something earlier about Uber for agriculture, which is a great tagline, but one of the things that Uber did when it started quite famously, was sort of it started and grew itself sort of despite government sort of policies that it was very much looking to disrupt, and then sort of the policy aspects and the working with governments came in sort of after it sort of built its initial momentum. How are you working with governments to sort of help accelerate this understanding and growth across the countries that you're sort of looking at targeting?

Speaker 2:

So that Uber for agriculture model, which is under my company, Grow For Me, has has actually been it's pretty much been the strategy that we've had very similar to Uber, in that we have started out and just like Uber started out with, to some extent, its own vehicles and cars, we started out testing products ourselves, actually trying to be very asset light, so not really investing heavily in warehouses and transportation and mechanization, but leveraging what is already in existence. So we partnered government through the Ghana Commodity Exchange by using their warehouses, which are strategically located all across the country. So, using that model and using micro aggregators who are basically almost like drivers working in the gig economy they own their own vehicle and they're able to move crops from the rural areas to areas of interest. We're using these people to actually aggregate the crops to dedicated warehouses and through that means we're able to offtake the product to large offtakers. That means we're able to offtake the product to large offtakers.

Speaker 2:

So a smallholder farmer existingly before were unable to tap into large markets, but through this model we're able to bring them together almost like as a collaborative and enable them to offtake their goods to larger markets. So it's a very similar model that we will have with AfriSouth, and I think also one of the things we've been able to prove with Grow For Me is by working very closely with government. We were actually in a sandbox program for about three, four years We've become the first crowdfunding crowdfarming startup to gain SEC approval actually, which is a significant accomplishment for an organization. So it's a very similar model we will take with AFRI SAF, but the focus is going to be on feedstock as opposed to agricultural commodities.

Speaker 1:

And do you see this sort of feedstock infrastructure, whether it be digital or physical, being sort of the first domino that needs to fall in terms of accelerating SAF production? Is this the first real target that everyone needs to solve before we can actually start looking at commercialising SAF production across the continent?

Speaker 2:

I think so and I think it's the case. No matter where in the world you look at a SAF project, people are going to ask okay, where is the feedstock? What is the cost of the feedstock? And it's something that I personally saw working in power to liquid as well. I mean, everyone is talking about the cost and the availability of green hydrogen. I mean we talk about the SAF challenge, but to some extent it really is the feedstock challenge and that's where we want to start out. We want to make sure we understand what feedstock is available, we want to make sure it's managed, that it's aggregated and the logistics for all that feedstock is run on a consistent basis, and obviously the quality is very important of that feedstock as well. So we believe that once you address the feedstock challenge, then you develop the business case for plants moving down the line, and essentially that's where we want to be.

Speaker 1:

You know, addressing feedstock Offtake is there, as we know and then moving on to project development and we've we've mentioned feedstock very broadly, but what are the specific waste products that are making up this feedstock that are sort of the most common, whether it be in Ghana or all the other countries that you're sort of looking at? What are we talking about in terms of feedstock?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, so there's a wide variety of different types of feedstock, and that can be anything from husks of coffee so coffee husks, coconut shells, it could be rice husks, it could be maize stowa, it could be even sawdust, which is produced in large amounts, it could be waste from wood shaving or wood waste. There's a wide spectrum of waste that we can actually tap into to leverage this energy transition.

Speaker 1:

So we're talking broad scale biomass, agricultural waste, on the sort of the largest sense of sort of what that definition entails.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Exactly, exactly. So we're moving away from anything like MSW municipal waste. It's really concentrated waste of consistent nature. Sugarcane bagasse is another great example, and there's tons of this available. Sugarcane bagasse is another great example.

Speaker 1:

And there's tons of this available. One of the other big pillars of challenge when we're talking about getting SAF projects constructed and financed is the element of policy risk associated with building it. We said that feedstock is a central aspect and sorting out that supply chain is really important. But how do you see the the policy conversation developing in Africa, because that's probably another area of large concern, certainly for investors who are looking at investing in SAF projects across the continent.

Speaker 2:

It absolutely is, and policy is very fundamental, I would say. Over the past, as I mentioned, couple of months, we've been engaging quite heavily with government and many of the airlines who, frankly speaking, are government-led airlines, and I think airlines at the moment are waking up to the fact that SAF is going to be part of their future. It is going to be part of the solution that drives sustainability. So they need to get on board of it and, ideally, they need to develop that ecosystem within their own country. You know an airline that has SAF in their hub. You know, growing very close to the hub is going to be well positioned for the future. So I think this is something that governments are now sort of tuning their ears to. We've had great discussions with petrochemical companies who are now very keen to look at either co-processing of SAF or actually the construction of SAF to actually move away from conventional fossil-based fuel production. So this is something that's very encouraging and I believe that change will come.

Speaker 2:

We've seen, of course, policy changing quite dramatically and, I think, just the education that we're trying to bring governments, the fact that the feedstock is literally at their footsteps and nothing is being done today and there's a significant amount of value that can be created from this feedstock, and not just value in terms of the revenue. We're talking about jobs and the economy, and this is something that, of course, is very topical of this day. You know, given the geopolitical landscape, we think that energy security is very critical and I think, fundamentally, what we've identified is that energy security closely follows food security as well, which also closely follows political or geopolitical security. So energy, I think most people understand, is very critical. It's something that needs to be addressed and be managed very well. Something that needs to be addressed and be managed very well.

Speaker 1:

Is this drive for energy security, food security, what you think can keep the sustainability agenda as a high priority, because obviously there are, depending on the countries in Africa, different problems across the continent, whether it's sort of healthcare or you know other things, sort of these geopolitical issues. Is that what's really going to keep this as a high priority for governments in different nations across the continent, rather than letting it sort of slide down the priority list of as other sort of issues emerge, because it's constantly turning and things are constantly changing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great question and, frankly speaking, you know, if I was to approach it by saying these are sustainable fuels and it's important for the climate, I wouldn't make much traction.

Speaker 2:

We need to look at what is important to governments today, and energy security is right up there. I mean, there are cases where airlines are not able to operate because of the lack of fuel at the airports. There are cases where you've got a long line of traffic waiting for fuel at fueling stations. You know you've got many challenges, particularly when it comes to electrification in Africa. There are many challenges even in developed parts of Africa like South Africa today. So energy is really high up the list when it comes to governments. So the extent to which they can actually produce energy themselves and be self-sufficient and develop an industry, particularly going into this new revolution of energy, clean energy, will position themselves as innovators and, ultimately, green jobs for the future. So I think this is really what is a change in mind when it comes to the opportunity with SAF and sustainable fuels, and really it's the focus of what we're bringing to governments as this big opportunity of what we're bringing to governments as this big opportunity.

Speaker 1:

Some of the largest investment over the last 10, 15 years has come from outside sources, outside nations, and I think the most well-known of this is the Belt and Road Initiative from China. That's seen vast amounts of investment go into countries across different all over the globe. Notably, there's lots going to Africa as well. How does and that's traditionally been in sort of oil, sort of minerals mining, getting sort of extracting stuff from the planet. How do you see the SAF sort of investing in SAF production and sustainability stuff Sort of? Do you think it butts heads with that? Sort of investing in SAF production and sustainability stuff? Sort of would it? But does it, do you think about head butts heads with that? Is this potential to sort of adapt that because it is growing? It is looking at sort of energy and sort of independence as well. There is a that aspect Belt and Road, that infrastructure side so you could see it tying in. But how do you see it working alongside those big external infrastructure investments that have been made over the last 10-15 years?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think fundamentally there is need for a lot of external investment and there have been pledges made. I mean, you know, I've been to many of the COP events where we hear about these large amounts of money that has been made available for SAF projects in the country and fundamentally we need to tap into some of these funds to really roll out some of these projects. One of the things that we are trying to do as AFRI SAF is really focus on what is mature, what is scalable and what really is defendable. So we're not looking at anything that's below TRL 8 in terms of maturity. We're looking for projects that can be built, that can be very robust given the nature in Africa and really just hold their weight and meet the needs of the country.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I think fundamentally we are starting to speak to finances within Africa. I think there will definitely be a bit of a lag. At the moment we are to some extent dependent upon finance and we're talking about big numbers here, particularly when we're talking about self-plants. We're going to be talking about finance that comes from large infrastructure funds, particularly outside the continent initially, but I think eventually finance will pick up from within as well.

Speaker 1:

And do you think to get this external or internal investment you have to be looking at lots of small scale plants initially, rather than sort of the big, sort of large scale producing, um, massive quantities of saff and other and biodiesel and other and other things. So you have to look on the smaller scale to begin with with these more sophisticated tech pathways and technologies at the higher trl level and sort of to get the ball rolling and then look at sort of expanding capacity and other technologies from that. So you sort of walk before you run effectively.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think initially many of the plants may even be at a pilot scale level to demonstrate demonstrate the scalability of these plants and the maturity and the ability to run them but ultimately it's a drive for the lowest unit cost. So we need to go big and I think, when you look at the global picture I think Ayata says there's a need for approximately 5,000 self-plants by 2050 for us to hit these targets. And the question I ask myself is how many of these plants do we realistically need in Africa? Also, given the fact that Africa is the second largest landmass, there's a significant amount of waste agricultural residue that is there today that can be leveraged today in many of these plants. I believe that there should be at least a thousand, you know, or so I mean. That's very optimistic but, frankly speaking, probably looking at smaller scale plants, tying in with the type of feedstock that is available at the given locations. Africa is a very large continent, 54 different countries so we're probably starting small and then growing as in where the opportunity exists to grow.

Speaker 1:

And, of course, it's one of the fastest growing aviation markets to go along with that. So by the time we get through 2050, there's going to be a massive increase in the amount of aviation activity across the continent, to go along with the feedstock availability and all those other ingredients. So that's another thing that actually potentially people aren't necessarily aware of that. The growth of aviation is coming from places like Africa, india, south America, as opposed to the more established markets.

Speaker 2:

That's right. I mean, when you look at the growth of the population, africa is actually the only region that has population growth. I mean, when you look at the average age of the typical population in Africa, it's about 19 years old. It's half as much as in the developed world. About 19 years old it's half as much as in the developed world. The population is growing exponentially about 1.4 billion people now by 2050, we're looking at about 2.5 billion people.

Speaker 2:

So it's going to be a very large market and you've also got to think about the type of people who would want to be working in plants at that time. You know workforce, because this is also about employment, and you're going to need a significant amount of workforce to actually man these plants, you know. So I think, looking at a global picture and the fact that these plants need to be running for about 2025 or even more years, it's really important to look at the big picture and I think facts like the fastest growing region in terms of aviation markets and I believe half of the 20 fastest growing nations in terms of GDP are currently in Africa. When you look at the bigger picture, it actually makes complete sense to look at Africa for a long-term solution.

Speaker 1:

Sense to look at Africa for a long-term solution and, of course, this growing the production capacity across Africa is one of the great ways of growing that GDP further in countries that aren't necessarily growing as fast and accelerating their economic sort of, their productivity levels as sort of a country and then overall as a continent as well. This is such a great avenue to bring millions of people you know out of potential poverty, to give them employment and make them contribute to this global issue. As you said, it's a global solution, requires a global solution yep, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I mean we see this as a big opportunity to address, uh, the rural demand. You know, of course you've got at the a big movement of people from rural areas to urban areas and of course the cities can't actually cope with this, even from an infrastructure perspective. So you get a lot of these people moving in doing menial jobs and then, unfortunately, the trend after that is the movement of people into other countries through illegal migration. After that is the movement of people into other countries through illegal migration. So we believe that bringing plants opportunities to the rural areas brings rural diversification and development, which is really critical for the economies and for the continent as a whole.

Speaker 1:

I think it's interesting and you kind of highlighted at the end of your answer there that we talk about Africa in a continental term and the only other market we really talk about it in a continental terms is the EU. Obviously that's very different with this large legislative legislative body overarching all the EU members and there's political and economic alignment across them all, whereas other countries we don't talk about Asia. We we talk about India, china, malaysia, those individual countries, but we do talk in terms of Africa as a continental sort of movement and how this is a continental development. So how do you see sort of the role of continental alignment versus individual nations sorting them out themselves? Is there a role for more national interplay to look at this as a continental issue rather than just sort of individual nations trying to solve their individual problems?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great question. And also, you know, one of the things I find myself doing quite often is reminding people that Africa is not a country. It's a continent with 54 sovereign states, thousands of different languages and cultures and ways of doing business. So there are many differences across the different African countries, but there are many similarities. So, even for Afrisaf as a model, whilst we are creating something and starting out in Ghana and we have a go-to-market strategy across a number of different countries, we will be adapting that to different countries.

Speaker 2:

But when you look at Africa at an AU level, we see that there is the driving need and desire for Africa to unite and be a lot more united when it comes to a political financial position as well.

Speaker 2:

You may have heard of the African Continental Free Trade Area, which is actually creating the largest open market in Africa and basically encouraging the free movement of goods and people within borders, which is going to create an immense opportunity.

Speaker 2:

And when you look at it, it's going to create a market of over 1.4 billion people, which in and of itself, is huge. So you've got this opening of the borders, free movement of goods and people, and the AU are trying to also push for the AU passport, for instance, you know, also given the ability for people to move from one nation state easily to another nation state. And then you've got AFCAC, which is the Commission for Aviation, which is driving for open skies, similar to what we had in the US and the EU decades ago. So we believe that this will be a big catalyst to open up the market in Africa for more and more flights, more and more business. So there is a lot of diversity happening, both at a country level, but at an AU level and Africa level, there's a lot happening behind the scenes in terms of joining all of these countries together to create a bigger pie overall terms of joining all of these countries together to create a bigger pie overall.

Speaker 1:

You've mentioned a couple of times the role of demand signaling and that this is another critical ingredient which comes up all the time when I speak to people on this podcast, and we've also said that a lot of the growth in aviation is coming from Africa, but currently it's not a sort of as big a market for aviation as we stand, as it is now, and now is when we need to look at the long term offtake agreements that are actually the ones that are going to make a difference when it comes to financing projects, or at least in the next few years. So is there enough long-term sort of off-take demand from Africa, from sort of external airlines that operate in Africa, from African airlines like Kenya? I know you've done some stuff with Kenya Airways so is that sort of the right level of sort of good demand and offtake demand there now, or is that something that still needs to be worked on across the continent?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So Africa, as you've mentioned, is a very small market, particularly today. It's coming from a very small base it's 2% of the world's ASK, so tiny. So in terms of Africa's contribution to CO2 emissions it's 2% of 2%. You know, it's almost nothing which, frankly speaking, is why many of the airline executives in Africa are not so keen on talking about sustainability.

Speaker 2:

However, there is this big opportunity of producing SAF locally, which I've touched on as well, which can actually address a big demand for energy independence, which, again, I've touched on.

Speaker 2:

But the fact of the matter is, today Jet A1 in Africa is probably the most expensive Jet A1 you can buy anywhere in the world, and there are actually some secondary airports where you're paying 2x or even more of the cost of Jet A1. So we actually believe that there could actually be cases whereby you can produce SAF locally at cost parity with Jet A1, which will be a game changer. And secondly, I think we talk about book and claim quite a lot and we believe that book and claim fundamentally will unlock a significant market for SAF in Africa Because essentially then you're decoupling the markets, the cost and the premium of SAF from the actual certification which is needed elsewhere. So you know we are speaking to major airlines, the big five as you call them. You know the Royal Air, marocs and Egypt Airs and Kenya Airways, south African Airways, ethiopian Airlines, who are very keen, but we believe that through Brooklyn claim there could be a great opportunity to actually distribute South into Africa, where the premium of that and the certification of that will actually be acquired elsewhere.

Speaker 1:

I think Africa could be one of the only places in the world where SAF could enter a market at cost parity with Jet A1 in certain locations, because you can control and you have full ownership of the supply chain and the levels of production in those sort of secondary, tertiary airports across the continent. So that's that's. It seems like a really exciting possibility and, as we've said before, it's not talking about in terms of sustainability, it's talking to to it in terms of energy security, which I think is along the lines of what president trump and the trump administrations will look at. Saff in the us they're going to, I think, look more to rebrand as energy security rather than sustainability, with a bit of a shift. But that sort of what that could do for for airlines in terms of opening up more operational capacity because they've got more control over that supply chain of fuel, is it's so exciting to across multiple nations absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

It really is a big opportunity and and the work we're doing today is really to illustrate this opportunity to many different countries. I mean, you know we speak to people in Kenya with regards to the mass agricultural residue that they're producing, even you know, when it comes to specific companies that are producing millions of tons of ag waste on an annual basis, and illustrating the opportunity to convert this into a fuel is a game changer. You know, and you're adding value and you're creating jobs and really just building a new industry. So I think many people are beginning to see this opportunity and really it's just in our vision to be able to leverage that and create a much more dynamic industry and SAF ecosystem whereby Africa is not just producing SAF but it can actually become an exporter of SAF, because obviously at the moment it's still a very small aviation market. So that really is the goal.

Speaker 1:

And do you think investors see this potential? Because there's a lot of challenge around getting projects through FID in the US and Europe, where there is copious amounts of policy support in comparison to Africa. I know people in Europe and the US would say they want more policy support, but comparatively there is so much. Do you think investors actually see this, the economic potential of investing in SAF as an infrastructure, an economic growth investment, not just a sustainability investment?

Speaker 2:

I don't think so. I don't think investors really see the scale of this opportunity and I believe, you know, like many others, we felt that you know, okay, regulations have passed, refuel EU is in place, mandates are in place. This is really going to boost the investment in this space. But I also think that it's also subjected to the times and the season, the public sentiment and also geopolitics, because, speaking, you know, with the new administration in the US and the narrative of drill, baby drill, that has really changed the perception of investors, you know, and and their approach towards investment in self. But I believe that it's very short term.

Speaker 2:

I believe things are changing dramatically and people are starting to cotton on. I believe now really is the time and we are in an energy revolution and, you know, very soon this is just going to be the thing you do. I mean, just like in renewable electricity, if you want a cheap or affordable renewable electricity project, you know you're going to go to wind or solar. You know gone are the days when you look to build a plant, a gas plant. So I think this is essentially where we are. It is a bit of a, you know, sort of value of death situation, but I think once we get through the next sort of you know year or a couple of years, and that awareness does really become a lot more mainstream, I believe there'll be a lot more opportunity for investors to tap into this sector.

Speaker 1:

There are a lot of studies, feed studies going on across Africa done by ICAO, iata, rsb. The WWF have done one. What more needs to be done to sort of push this message to investors that this is actually a great investment opportunity across Africa?

Speaker 2:

So I think the biggest challenge that Africa faced and you know I say this not even just as an entrepreneur in this space, but this is something I saw even when I was selling aircraft or leasing aircraft in Africa is the risk is a perception. Risk is not particularly a risk itself, it's a perception of risk and, for example, when I ask the average person how many billion dollar companies do you believe there are in Africa, you know most people believe it's okay, maybe there's about five or 10 or 20. No, there's actually $400 billion companies in Africa that are thriving from year to year. And you know, one of the things that we are really trying to stress is that when you look at Africa long term, when you look at the dynamics, when you look at the demographics and when you look at the market that has been created, this really is a large opportunity created. This really is a large opportunity.

Speaker 1:

And I think that really, just once, that perception, that initial risk perception- is overcome, people actually start to look at the real opportunity that exists and on the sort of investment. You touched on that. A lot of it will initially have to come from external sources and there might be some capacity for In continental investment. But one of the sources of that the African Development Bank, a bit like sort of the EBRD does in Europe, and other development banks across the world, have a really important role to play in encouraging external investors, creating the right environment, financial instruments in order to protect the private investors feel protected when they're making these investments into territories where other people wouldn't, where they wouldn't traditionally normally have invested. So creating that environment really important from sort of a public private partnership perspective and encouraging those relationships correct yeah, absolutely, and I think you know banks like afrix in bank, african development bank.

Speaker 2:

We're engaging with all of these banks and it's a journey.

Speaker 2:

And it's a journey whereby you need to take these finances along with you to demonstrate what is possible, the art of the possible, and, as an entrepreneur, that does mean starting at grassroots, starting very small, demonstrating that, ticking the box, moving forward, increasing the scale, demonstrating that and ticking the box, moving forward, increasing the scale, demonstrating that and moving forward.

Speaker 2:

And that does mean as well finding solutions for circularity within communities initially, and then within countries and then within regions, before you then start looking at a continental level and before you can actually get to scale. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are many challenges on the ground. Logistics, infrastructure is very difficult, you know, even things like connecting major cities with roads or rails. A lot of this is, to some extent, non-existent, so you do need to find novel solutions to problems that exist, but it's really about bringing the investors with you along that journey and illustrating that opportunity, and I believe that by doing that, that's the best way to tap into, you know, the finance that's ultimately going to be needed to build and get to the scale of these gigasize plants, do you think?

Speaker 1:

that. So if an investor said to you we're not looking at SAF because, like you said, we're looking at these infrastructure products, like connecting cities, the more basic fundamental infrastructure, sort of whole gaps there are in sort of the supply, what would be supply chain, it's preventing us from looking at SAF as an investment, do you buy that argument, or do you? Would you not necessarily see that? See those two being connected?

Speaker 2:

I mean yes and no. I mean, of course, you need infrastructure and you need infrastructure in place to build stuff, because, unfortunately, with many businesses that you know have sort of scaled in Africa, they end up having to do their own infrastructure. But here's the opportunity where there are locations in Africa, many locations in Africa that have amazing infrastructure. And you know, as I mentioned, some of the countries we are talking to right now and I'll even add Rwanda to the list, a country that has fantastically improved infrastructure. It's landlocked, so it has invested in road infrastructure, it's investing in airports as well, and Kenya, for instance.

Speaker 2:

So there are locations whereby you can overcome that infrastructure hurdle initially. And it could almost be like a chicken and egg because you know, once you are trying to develop, you know large scale projects, then you're going to need the infrastructure, but then you need the infrastructure to develop these projects as well. So you know, it's almost like what comes first comes first. So, fundamentally, what we're trying to do is to look at the locations that are ripe, that have the infrastructure in place and have the need in place as well and the access to the feedstock set up there, demonstrate and then grow from there. You know, it's really a question of presenting, demonstrating and then growing from there.

Speaker 1:

It just seems like another example of many of the chicken and egg. There's so many situations like this across the sustainability. There is Kwame. We're going to continue this discussion at Staff Investor London at the end of May on the 28th 29th of May, where you're very kindly going to join us for a discussion with people in the audience about growing SAF production across emerging markets, where we're going to broaden it out beyond Africa to other regions as well. So if you want to find out more or hear a bit more about this conversation in person, make sure um you come and join us then. But, kwame, thanks so much for joining us. That was, um a fascinating insight into the dynamics of getting saf off the ground across the african continent thank you, oscar, really appreciate this and look forward to the conference as well.