The SAF Podcast

The SAF Podcast: Avia Solutions Group - Unleasing Baltic SAF Production

• SAF Investor • Season 3 • Episode 13

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In this episode of The SAF Podcast, we welcome Gediminas Ziemelis, Founder and Chairman of Avia Solutions Group, to discuss the company’s move into sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) production through its NorSAF project. As the world’s largest wet-leasing provider, Avia Solutions Group operates across six continents and is now leveraging its extensive infrastructure to help decarbonize aviation.

Gediminas shares how the company is developing a state-of-the-art SAF and eSAF production facility in Liepāja, Latvia, strategically positioned to serve the Baltic, Nordic, and Central European regions. He reveals how acquiring an existing oil storage terminal has saved years on permitting and construction, while enabling cost-effective scaling of synthetic SAF production using KBR’s PureSAF technology—based on captured CO₂ and green hydrogen.

Behind this ambitious venture lies a revealing look at how nimble, privately-held companies can move faster in the green transition. Unlike publicly-listed giants retreating from environmental initiatives to focus on core business, Avia Solutions Group can make rapid decisions without justifying every move to shareholders. This agility might be exactly what's needed to accelerate aviation's sustainability journey.

Beyond environmental benefits, Ziemelis frames the project as a strategic move toward European energy independence—drawing parallels to how Europe developed sugar beet production in the 18th century to reduce dependency on imported sugar cane. Could synthetic aviation fuel represent the next chapter in Europe's quest for energy sovereignty? Listen now to discover how the future of flight might be taking shape in the Baltic region.


Check out our previous discussion with Dani Charles, Veriflux on AI and traceability here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2202964/episodes/17201492

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the SAF podcast. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Gedimines Ziamelis from Avia Solutions Group, and today we're going to be talking about their SAF project, that they're working on Norsaf in the Baltic region. So we're going to be looking at SAF production in the Baltics and why Avia Solutions Group are looking at getting involved in the SAF space. Gediminas, how are you good? Thank you, excellent. So before we get into north, south and what's going on with that SAF project, do you just want to give everyone a background on avia solutions group you know how it came about, how you came to found it and sort of what that sort of company does before we get into SAF specifically, yes, so currently, after the 20 years in the industry, avial Solutions Group being treated as the biggest wet leasing provider in the world, it means that we're providing white label airline capacity to the other scheduled airline companies and we are operating in six continents.

Speaker 2:

So basically we're leveraging capacity of scheduled airline companies during the peaks because six continents has different peaks. Sometimes companies get more than 50% of revenues during different peaks. Sometimes companies gets more than 50% of revenues in during the peaks Would it be some in winter? Depends which continent and we allow them to leverage their capacity, not taking over long obligation, long term obligation on the on the fleet owning them or leasing them. On the fleet owning them or leasing them.

Speaker 2:

On one hand, it's actually is also part of ECG because we are using aircraft when it's needed and we are not polluting when they're losing money. It's one part of ECG. Another, we as a biggest provider of 220 aircraft across the globe. We have a big aircraft across the globe. We have a big infrastructure around the world. We have a sizable maintenance business in seven countries. We have a sizable pilot training business. We are also in the ground handling business, which is not directly linked to our main core business with leasing our main core business with leasing but nevertheless we're servicing ingrow handling and fueling segment in 26 airports in Nordic and Central Europe, so it's nothing uncommon for us and nothing new that we stepped into this project one year ago and we're developing North in in baltics, which is covering all north nordic europe and central europe.

Speaker 1:

When it comes to the reasonable logistic costs, so you don't have that much going on at Avia Solutions Group. Then Just a few things here and there You've got space to add a SAP plant.

Speaker 2:

You know I can talk for hours about Avia Solutions Group and, yes, of course, this is quite not common to the consumers because they don't see us. Sometimes you can fly, you know, if you're talking about Great Britain, we have five customers there and you can fly, buy a ticket on one of those planes and you will see logo of that original brand owner but behind the production it will be us. And if you are professional or know more as a waiter, you can guess by the plate. And if you are professional or know more as an evader, you can guess by the plate number or by the different manuals that it's not, for example, whatever JETUCOM. It would be us as an example. But yeah, it's an invisible part of the evasion supply chain which is becoming very important in the last decade.

Speaker 1:

So when did you decide that this was something you wanted to look at, and can you just explain a bit about the NorthSouth project, specifically in terms of its location, what sort of pathways and things like that, what you're looking at with that project?

Speaker 2:

First of all, ecg requirements didn't disappear. As an innovation company, we should follow trends and we should follow obligations in front of the uh, global trends and probably last couple of years, because of the war behind us, because of the geopolitics, uh, airline companies are not talking so much about uh what they will do to reduce the co2 emission, what they will do to reduce the CO2 emission. Many of them have a declaration that 2050 will be zero. In many cases. How to achieve it, there is no exact roadmap and what to do and it's very little movement towards that. But as a full-chain supply provider in aviation and to the scheduled passengers and carriers, we are for many years in ground handling and foiling business. So currently our foiling business we're probably into the plane. It's more than 1 million tons, so we are quite sizable player in the region, independent from the oil companies.

Speaker 2:

We are using products of different producers, european producers, and the initiative came very easily combining ECG requirements, combining this trend. We as an organization, very flexible when it comes to new ideas, greenfield projects and potentially sustainable and interesting and profitable project in the future. So we have a sizable into the plane fueling operation in Latvia. This is one of many countries where we are and there was a good opportunity to buy out the existing oil product storage infrastructure in the seaport. Seaport is Liepaja and logistically-wise it's covering Poland, it's covering even Czech Republic, it's covering Finland, it's covering Denmark. So geographically-wise and logistically-wise it's a very comfortable place. And in between of the various discussions we realized that we can use this infrastructure for the future SAF developing project as an infrastructure project, as an infrastructure and what's the sort of scheduled timeline of development construction.

Speaker 1:

So where are you now? Are you at sort of a feed stage and what's sort of the timeline to get to commercial operations? When do you plan to do that?

Speaker 2:

Probably an important fact to mention that, buying an existing oil storage facility, we're saving three, four years because it's already approved for the oil products, it's already with the access to the water for the transportation. Transportation, uh, it's already uh, it's already uh in place many uh infrastructural uh solutions there, uh, so, so, so, basically, if somebody wants to start from zero, we saved already around three years. So, second, we already uh selected way of producing SAF, and we are talking about a very important thing. There are two types of SAF. There's natural SAF or organic SAF, produced from cooked oils, fats and biomass, and we are talking about our factory will be mixed about the. Our factory will be mixed. Half of the production will be uh normal staff and half of the production will be esaf synthetic stuff. So, for those who don't know, uh, synthetic staff is a new technology, uh based on co2, capped co2, uh, green hydrogen and methanol, which is basically solving another important issue, because all European countries since 2040 should capture CO2 and should burrow into the sea storages. So, basically, from where oil came, you need to collect uh and and to burl it back and then you'll get the right documentation and certificates that you recycled it. So, basically, basically, this new technology? Uh, it's, it's very new and we were new and we were, we were monitoring, uh, what is happening around the world. Basically, uh, one year ago, almost one year ago, we signed initial agreement with american company kbr, which developing such a technology it's basically roots of that technology came from Sweden. They bought company in Sweden and there is one testing facility and it's already producing right product.

Speaker 2:

Important to mention that, after the selecting of technology, still many items missing. We need to understand we will produce green hydrogen or we will buy from existing suppliers about the logistic of methanol and how we combine this Also important electricity and the price of electricity this also important electricity and the price of electricity. So basically, we're talking that in this project we will involve a lot of counterparties and and project uh definitely will be approved as a strategic project for the latvian economy. Uh, because it's a, it's registered in latvia, but overall it will be strategic, important for all surrounding countries because there is no solution for production industry companies what to do with captured CO2. So, basically, we're in the stage of the finalizing deep feasibility study which will allow us to select final technology, which will allow us to select final technology. That's why we're saying that our investment could differ because of the final technology which we select and it could be varied from 500 to 600 million US dollars.

Speaker 2:

Feasibility study will be ready in next couple of months and then definitely we'll start uh production, uh production, uh plan drafting, included, uh included technology owners, including uh equipment supplies, and included and included and included regulators, of course. So basically, uh to to to to. We will end by 2026 with the uh ready to build documentation and we're assuming that the production, full production uh, could start 28,. Usually in such new project, new technology project, there are things which should be adjusted, changed, maintained, and so we're adding on top additional nine months. So we will be in the line with the regulatory requirement that by 2030, it's about European Union Union that 1.2 percent of all fuels should be synthetic and six percent should be should be soft overall. If you're talking about UK, uk, uk is uh, is uh already. Two percent of total UK jet is already SAF and 10% in 2030 and 22% in 2040. So we believe that we will be one of the first producing real e-SAF or synthetic SAF.

Speaker 1:

The other benefit of using infrastructure that's already there. You mentioned the speed benefit. The other one is the cost benefit. Presumably, it's a lot cheaper to repurpose existing infrastructure rather than building the whole thing from scratch, so you've got that added benefit as well. You mentioned that you're using KBR's PureSaf technology. Why did you choose that technology over sort of others that are currently being developed in the e-saf space?

Speaker 2:

Well, when it comes to technologies I mean what is new? Very few organizations can provide it and I personally don't think that to produce regular stuff from fats and cooked oils and biomass in the long term is enough. Sustainable because of many circumstances, especially cooked oils. Sustainable because of many circumstances, especially cooked oils, and there are very few alternatives. I believe that with the years, we will have more participants when it comes to providing new technologies, but time is a matter because we are talking about 1.2 uh 1.2 uh percent of the synthetic foil by 2030 and we expect that overall soft demand by 2030 will be 2.8 million.

Speaker 2:

So if it is, if it is divided by 5, we'll get the synthetic SAF. It says it's what? 560,000 tons, and our production facility will be just 100,000 tons of both type of the SAF. So we will be able to supply just 10% of the demanded SAF by 2013 in just EU. We're not talking. If we let UK, it will be totally different number and actually even now some organizations warning that SAF is okay, but synthetic SAF we could be in the stage that there will be not enough supply and probably regulation requirements could be postponed, and it's not okay for all the ecosystem, because why we are issuing new rules if the market cannot fulfill them. So I think this project is also important to catch the timeline and not to delay and not to ask for any extensions in the ecosystem and to be in the right timeline.

Speaker 1:

The project we're talking about. There's sort of two parts to it. There's the SAF refining part and then there's the carbon sort of capture part of the sort of the the refinery project. So there's sort of two, two strands to it and presumably the idea is that the SAF, the one plant, can capture the CO2 and then you can use that CO2, siphon some of it off and use it as a feedstock for the, the eat, the synth. That's then synthetic SAF portion of your production levels. Is that sort of the idea and the thinking behind that. So you can sort of create those synergies in terms of accessing your own feedstock rather than having to go out and externally source where the co2 is coming from but it's chicken and egg they need to recycle.

Speaker 2:

I mean, producers need to recycle co2 and if you look to the market, just lithuanian is five million tons, latvia three and a half million tons. So there is a, there is a lot of, there is a lot of uh, co2 which should be recycled and burl. But and yes, of course we're combining this, this, these things, and and uh and uh. Our company, north, will be an important player here when it comes to retransportation of the CO2 for the following recycling. So I think it's in line with everybody's interest and, as I said, we saved three years. Some infrastructure will be adjusted and used. We are in the seaport. All the free economic zone is supportive of this project because it's in line with their strategy how to convert ex-CIS countries infrastructure which was historically servicing other countries, and it's actually a great way to create value, transforming the existing infrastructure for the services and goods which creates value for the whole Europe.

Speaker 1:

Not all of the feedstock can go into your project, if we're talking the captured CO2. Some of it is still going to have to be captured and stored in the traditional CCS model. Yes, just to explain, is that, purely because of your expected production capacity, is there any plans to sort of long-term look at adjusting the amount that you're capturing and then you're utilizing as feedstock versus the amount you're burying? How, how does that? Is that sort of a dynamic sort of situation, or is that just sort of the way it has to be for the size of plant you've got in mind to develop?

Speaker 2:

You know, 20 years ago I personally built first maintenance hangar and it was new for me, and currently we operate 10 hangars across the world. So, basically, the expansion was driven by the success, but behind the success is the hard work, mistakes, funding, people, regulatory and many other things. So I think that if we will prove this concept working, if we will prove this concept working and if all the surrounders and participants of all this project, including EU, which provide different funding, then we don't see any limits for us to expand because we have enough, uh, enough land and territory, uh and, uh, and, and, and and and.

Speaker 2:

Sea transportation is not bought a bottleneck, so it's just. It's just, it's just a bit, it's just a question uh, what uh demand and supply measurements would be, uh, how many competitive project would be around? Competitive project would be around, uh, and I, and I believe that and I believe that uh, very important support of, of course, all governmental institutions. I mean, you know, we see stories when to build the third runway, it's impossible in some airports for many years. So so, because of the communities, etc. So the the leap Liepaja Free Economic Zone is an excellent place. Almost no villages or cities around, huge territory. Historically it was an industrial area, so it's a very right direction to convert existing part of the territory in the country.

Speaker 1:

And you've mentioned this, the economic zone being the prime place there's also Latvia is quite a good country because of the tax structures and regulation around sort of business decisions like that. Around sort of business decisions like that.

Speaker 2:

No, you know, taxes, I mean corporate taxes, is not the main, probably item for all European businesses. We have more or less similar corporate taxes from 15, okay, bulgaria, 10%, but Netherlands but from 50 to 22% is nothing. The UK, I think, has 22% corporate tax, if I'm correctly remember, so it's not a big game, I think. Access to the infrastructure it's pretty much attractive because we have no overloaded seaports. When it comes to, okay, germany, uk, france, italy, uh, all all europe countries, businesses are there and and logistic and access to the to this, to the sea, uh, and many other things, it's a much more complicated. So I think this is this is the point and, as I said before, I mean latvia was part of of the Soviet Union, as Lithuania as well, for 50 years and all the seaports originally was servicing that country. We have a strong wall and actually everything now connected to the European Union and it's an opportunity to fill this gap.

Speaker 2:

I think this is the number one condition why we selected this country and, at the same time, if we come back to the taxes, I mean, in the long term, all the corporate taxes will be more or less the more or less the same. We already have a tax called second pill, which uh corporations like ours with the more than 700 million revenues we should pay average uh corporate tax 15 across the countries and if we're paying less in one country we should pay different in other countries. So you know we are a semi-public company. We have publicly listed bonds on doubling stock exchange. We are preparing our company for potential liquidity event. So this is not the point at the end of the day. I mean taxes.

Speaker 1:

How are you looking at when you get to sort of the construction phase, the sort of the critical FID point? How are you looking at financing the project? Are you looking at outside debt or equity or you know? Are you just sort of internally funding? How are you sort of looking to finance this project?

Speaker 2:

First of all, we expect that there will be significant EU funding for the project like this. I mean grants and it's everything what is linked with CO2. It's an EU decision, direct EU commission. Of course we're talking about green credits and of course we're talking about our equity. So it's a structure would be as usual for similar project. Our organization, as Avia Solution Group, we generate. Last year we generated 2.7 billion euros of revenues in our activity. Our equity is, if I'm correctly remember, around 700 million equity, not company value.

Speaker 1:

So we are financially sustainable enough to to manage such size projects on our own so that saves you having to deal with the the headaches that other producers are dealing with, the sort of providing revenue certainty through long-term off-take agreements and making sure feedstock supply chains are all agreed and sort of managed in an appropriate manner and sort of jumping all through those investment hoops that a lot of people are struggling with, particularly when it comes to the people are struggling with, particularly when it comes to the um, the project financing point of view.

Speaker 2:

First of all, our, our fueling business is already around one one million tons, will be around one million tons, uh, this year, and we can. It's not just baltics, it's, I mean, central europe and nordics. So balt, baltics, it's all. Baltic is just one million tons. So, uh, so we have internal demand for the south because of the regulatory. So so we know that, uh, our, our, our daughter companies, bgs aviator will definitely, bgs Aviator will definitely be first clients for SAF and will provide different product portfolio to carriers For them. I don't see any matter what SAF will be used and what producer, because it's a commodity, it's not a label product and it's one. And second, we strongly believe that our synthetic staff will be one of the few, one of the first product which we deliver to the market, product which would deliver to the market. Uh, because, because, again, if you want to to, to get to gain the uh World Cup, you need to work hard and to be first.

Speaker 1:

First, is there a concern that being with? We're kind of seeing now that being first in the SAF space isn't necessarily always best, as over the past six months of 2025, everyone was very excited about mandates coming into place, but we've seen there being a slump in SAF pricing because the demand isn't where everyone anticipated it would be, thanks to the mandates and the esaf portion. The synthetic portion of the mandate is, as you mentioned, 1.2. It's a relatively small amount and that could be covered very quickly by, you know, airlines, when the right environment is in place to to actually purchase the staff they need to. So is that something that's sort of playing in your mind that you could see history repeating itself in five years' time with e-SAF, like we've sort of seen currently with sort of the predominantly heifer SAF that we've got available now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but again, we should emphasize regular SAF and e-SAF is totally different stories. So for regular SA, regular stuff, we have three technologies uh, biomass, fats and cooked oils. And if we're talking about biomass, I mean in other oil product, diesel, for example. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's old product and plant plenty of the producers historically. So I think now it's eight% that we should use in biodiesel, biodiesel and diesel overall in Europe. So if we're talking about regular SAF, it's just, it's very. Everything is very linked to the percentage of regulatory, what they will fix as a percentage. But I think we are monitoring the overall amount and overall benefits, uh, for the producers that uh, everybody wants to make uh, aviation greener. So so it's, it's very it's, it's very easy regulated.

Speaker 2:

But once again, if we're talking uh esaf and we just meant we just mentioned that it's around 560 000 tons by 2030, demand 1.2 percent. So out of 2.8 million of sas overall, uh, there is no supply. Even we don't know what is the price, what will be the price of ESAF. So rumors are from 4,000 to 10,000 and it's demand and supply driven and we're talking about quite difficult and complicated technology which probably those who are planning to develop and build will definitely look to those who made it first Mistakes, problems, delays and et cetera.

Speaker 2:

So we are okay to be one of the first. We are okay to be one of the first. We are okay to be to be testing rabbit, uh, but this is a condition and benefits of our organization. We are first in the world starting, providing with leasing across six continents and actually it's quite complicated to compete with us not being in the way like we are. Yeah, there are risks. Yeah, there are plenty of unknown facts, but with the exact production, with the exact production plan, with the integrating of those CO2 owners let's call them companies which needs to to capture and to barrel, uh, I mean for the, for the newcomers will be challenging. We're not talking about regular oil product.

Speaker 1:

For the oil companies it's totally different you you've said you've, you know, started many, many different arms to your business. You you've had your wet leasing, which is the core, and spun out so many different sectors and sort of looked at so many different aspects. From that is this one the most challenging, that you new branch, that you've sort of added on to avia solutions group. Do you think, or do you think that there are other ones that you think have been more challenging, that you've already done?

Speaker 2:

as a production project. It's the most interesting at least. But you know, uh, in our wet leasing we're changing mindset of traditional airline top management. Because top management, before we're thinking, oh, I need a certain amount of aircraft so I can sell a certain amount of seats, are not in the peak season. I reduce the price sometimes to one euro just to have 100 occupancy we are saying no, you don't need that.

Speaker 2:

Reduce your fleet during non-peak to the level where you can sell tickets for the profitable price and don't, don't, don't own the agra, but when the peak will come, we will give our capacity and share with us profit what you're gaining during the peak, our capacity, and share with us profit what you're gaining during the peak per each ticket. So you will earn less profit in summer because you will share with us, but you will not lose money in winter. Or opposite, if you go to brazil or to, or to thailand or to, to other counter cyclical companies. We're saying opposite during the summer, aircraft on the ground and you're losing money, sell them, they deliver them to the level way which you can sell. And in the winter we'll give you aircraft which will bring from europe, because in europe there is no work, but for this purpose we created uh. Currently we have 14 certified licensed airline companies in the world and by first half of the next year will be 18. So we'll cover close to 50 countries, because some countries has a bilateral agreements and we can allow to fly, for example, brazil and Chile. We have the same environment.

Speaker 2:

So that was interesting and still interesting changing mindset of the decision makers. And I can tell you the secret Sometimes, especially publicly listed companies, management don't want revolutionary decisions. And we sometimes need to talk to the investors, bank analysts, who is covering stocks, because they're interviewing, managing and we're asking management why you have aircraft on the ground during the non-peak timing, why you keep it on the ground, and the answer we don't know what to do because we need to fly in the winter. But we are recommending them to listen to our executive and our product and analysts knocking to the door saying guys, you're losing shareholders money. Use this product when it's needed and rid off of the capacity when it's not needed. So this is process, interesting process as well.

Speaker 1:

Do you think other companies that are involved in sort of aircraft leasing in general should get more involved in the SAF space, because it's a sector that's often come under criticism from those in the industry from not being as active in promoting, financially or otherwise, saf projects globally? Saf projects globally do you think there could be more that sort of get involved, like you have in sort of either directly in the production space or investing in other projects, projects or even you know offtake agreements and you know showing, showing, willing to sort of help the industry and staff production develop?

Speaker 2:

I'm not in position to recommend some somebody for my colleagues you're quite happy being the only one there I didn't say so, but uh, so so you know the difference probably our organization and and many of our colleagues and participants of this ecosystem that we are still not a public company and 60 of our executive shareholders, together with me, the founder, our decisions are quite fast. Our decisions are quite fast. We are. If we don't know something, we're learning very fast. If we don't have expertise, we're having the best one in the world. And I believe we can make any project much faster because from the day when we decided to go to the day when it's already in the market, it's a timing can different two, two and a half time from our colleagues. And it's not because of it's not because that we're so much good, because we are making decisions faster. We're risking with our own money. We don't need to protect ourselves with the useless papers, useless things which just to cover our sorry for the word assets. So we want to do, we are doers.

Speaker 1:

You just got the ability to be that much more nimble than a publicly listed company, because you don't have to go through the extended procedures of justifying it to shareholders, board members etc. Etc. Because you are one in the same and you've got the ability to just find gaps and find opportunities and exploit them that much quicker than potentially others can it's very important in the develop in, in the developing stage, I mean when it comes already developed, then of course, everything comes to the new stage.

Speaker 2:

So, basically, if you look to all our group entities and business segments, many of them were greenfields. We didn't buy something big and then started to try to turn around. Something big and then started to try to turn around, and it's, of course, much more time consuming, much more uh needed much more management involvement, uh, uh, differently from the working big giants when you need cash and and proceeds to turn around. So so this is condition. I'm not saying this is something extraordinary, this is the best way, but this is actually us and I'm mentioning benefits, what we have in comparing to others.

Speaker 1:

So another aspect would be that a large sort of publicly listed company would want to focus on the core revenue streams. We're seeing a lot with oil and gas companies, for example, sort of concentrating back on the sort of the traditional commodities, their oil and gas production, as opposed to their green initiatives that they had, and we've seen them roll back, and there have been notable examples that I won't necessarily um list. But you don't have that sort of requirement to go okay, we've got to justify this compared to the amount we're spending on our core business and where we're expanding, and why. Because you know you don't have to make those justifications. So therefore, you're not going to start these projects and then you're gonna see it through because you're the ones carrying all the risk and you really want to see it work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we treated this project first of all. As I mentioned, ecg requirements and our ECG rating will definitely will be impacted On other hands. This is diversification for our portfolio of all businesses in the one United uh flight supply chain, not elevation flight supply chain how much time do you spend on this versus other sort of aspects of your business?

Speaker 1:

because this is sort of it's got to be, it must be very hands-on. There's a lot of constant decision making, a lot of constant conversations with partners you're developing the project with. So do you find that a lot of your time's being taken up with this and you can sort of leave the other aspects of your business because they're a bit more mature and sort of almost you've got people there that can run it for you, or is it sort of not working like that in in practice?

Speaker 2:

I think, no matter that, we're sizable organization. We have more than 15,000 people works for us and across six state countries our A-level managers. We have more than 300. So it's a quite sizable team. I call it the youngest aerospace industry team because, average, we are around 50 years. We grew up in the organization, many of them grew up in the organization, many of them we grew up in this organization included me, and every important project has project team from different executives. So I'm and of course I'm not personally managing every project and we have 10 plus of them every year. But, as you see, I'm talking to you with the numbers and I'm aware of our technologies and I personally visited kbr office and etc. Etc. Etc. So I need to understand basics and I need to understand where major risks are. Of course, every project has risks, but if you're combining good expertise, good management skills, if you're rightly backed by the lawyers main driver here is a market size I mean synthetic staff year from year till since 2030 will grow. Uh, we are not in direct competition with the giant oil companies, because it's not oil. It's a totally new project for for them new product for them. It's a totally new project for them, new product for them. It's no synergies with the oil production at all, it's just a new project. It's like you are beer producer starting produce vodka or opposite. So so we in the same competition position. Of course we have client list we we have. We can blend themselves and do many other things, but we are on the ground servicing our customers. So so we are, we are in the ecosystem and and again, exciting project.

Speaker 2:

Uh, you know many people, especially after after trump phrase, drill, baby drill. I mean a lot, of, a lot of people, a lot of people, uh, were telling, were telling that cc, co2, green, it's not any more sustainable and the and it's actually has no future. And and many other things. Uh, but I will give you one example. In 1747, german chemist Andreas Margraf discovered sugar beetroots. And it's just after that when American colonists declare independence because alternative is sugar cane. So you know that sugar cane is two times cheaper than sugar beetroots and you know that since that, european agriculture started being subsidized, which is subsidized till now. But Europe has their own sugar and we're not dependent on the other countries. So I think Europe without oil and gas in the big scale, we are dependent. You know in what countries. And uh and, and actually this logic that Europe would have their own fuel which is not produced from the oil and gas. It's not the wrong direction to remain independent, strong and less polluted continent.

Speaker 1:

One final question before we wrap up what is the biggest thing you've learned since you've sort of embarked on developing this project?

Speaker 2:

biggest technologies, managing everything if you're a technology. You are really, really dominant.

Speaker 1:

Excellent, Gary Minas. Thank you so much. That was fascinating and really enjoyed that. Thank you very much.