The SAF Podcast

The SAF Podcast: Gulfstream - Getting sandy in SAF's beachhead

• SAF Investor • Season 3 • Episode 15

Share episode

This week on the SAF Podcast Smitha Hariharan, Vice President and Chief Sustainability Officer at Gulfstream Aerospace, discusses how one of the leading business jet manufacturer is pioneering sustainability through a comprehensive three-pillar strategy that balances environmental responsibility with business performance, with a heavy focus on Sustainable Aviation Fuel since 2011. 

From Gulfstream's groundbreaking 2011 transatlantic flight using 50% SAF to their 2023 achievement of flying a G600 from Savannah to Farnborough with 100% SAF in both engines (a full week before Virgin Atlantic's much-publicized commercial demonstration). 

Hariharan reveals Gulfstream's comprehensive sustainability strategy built on three pillars: aircraft efficiency, operational improvements, and fuel innovation. The company has committed to reducing Scope 1 and 2 emissions by 40% by 2034 while supporting the aviation industry's ambitious 2050 net-zero goal. Their groundbreaking achievements include the first transatlantic business jet flight using 100% SAF—accomplished one week before Virgin's celebrated commercial flight.

The conversation explores how corporate customers are increasingly demanding sustainable aviation solutions, driving business aviation's transformation. Hariharan discusses the critical importance of book-and-claim mechanisms for expanding SAF access, particularly at smaller regional airports where business jets operate. She also addresses the challenges of scaling beyond HEFA-based SAF to next-generation pathways essential for meeting 2050 targets.

As a member of the Business Aviation Coalition for Sustainable Aviation Fuel, Gulfstream continues advancing industry-wide SAF adoption through rigorous testing, ASTM evaluation processes, and strategic partnerships with engine manufacturers like Rolls-Royce. This episode provides invaluable insights into how business aviation serves as a crucial testing ground for sustainable aviation innovations that will eventually benefit the entire aviation sector.

If you enjoyed this episode, check out our previous discussion which dives into Book and Claim more deeply with Andre de Fontaine about the Sustainable Aviation Buyers Alliance here, https://www.buzzsprout.com/2202964/episodes/17279231

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the SAF podcast. This week, I'm delighted to be joined by Smitha Hariharan, who's the Vice President and Chief Sustainability Officer for Gulfstream Aerospace. Today, we're going to be talking about business aviation and the role business aviation has in accelerating SAF adoption and what Gulfstream is doing with regards to SAF in the context of its wider sustainability criteria and commitments. Smitha, how are you?

Speaker 2:

Good to be here, Oscar. I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 1:

I am excellent. Thank you very much. So before we get into Gulfstream and SAF and all that stuff, do you just want to explain to everyone a bit about your background, how you ended up in the position you are today, and then maybe a very quick overview about what Gulfstream is, although I'm sure many people will have almost certainly heard of Gulfstream, if not be more familiar than that.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. I joined Gulfstream in July of 2024. The Chief Sustainability Officer role was newly created to accelerate the company's sustainability initiatives. Before Gulfstream, I was head of sustainability for an oil and gas services company based in Houston. I was in charge of global short and long term sustainability strategy and operationalizing sustainability and, just as a background, I have a bachelor's and master's degree in engineering very wide operations experience. I help positions in operations, product development and also work internationally in Europe, middle East and Asia. In 2021, I received an executive MBA with a focus on sustainability from Yale and that really you know. Bringing the operations and the business experience together to my sustainability work is how I got here. For those who don't know Gulfstream, we are the leading business aviation OEM. You know in the industry, we have an aircraft for every mission and sustainability is one of our pillars.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, you mentioned the sustainability strategy that Gulfstream has got. What is that? Can you break that down for us? What are the key components to that?

Speaker 2:

And then, what is the role of SAF within that as well? Yeah, so Gulfstream has two long-term committed goals. One is to reduce our scope one and two emissions by 40% by 2034 from our 2019 baseline. And the second is supporting the 2050 industry goal to reach net zero emissions and to achieve the goals that we have set out for ourselves and to support industry's ambition.

Speaker 2:

We have three focus areas or pillars. The first is the aircraft. Our next generation fleet of aircrafts is significantly more fuel efficient than predecessor models. So, focusing on fuel efficiency, it lowers the operating costs for the customer. It lowers the environmental impact of the flight. The second pillar is operations. We continue to focus on initiatives that lower energy consumption, fresh water usage and waste creation during our manufacturing, as well as service operations. And lastly, we focus on fuel. We continue our leadership position in accelerating sustainable aviation fuel, or SAF as it's widely known, you know, by doing two things demonstrating the compatibility of our aircrafts with higher blends of SAF and consuming SAF in our own operations. And if you look at all these pillars together, oscar, together these pillars really encompass where we can have the most impact on the future of sustainable aviation. You know they represent areas where sustainability is not just good for the environment.

Speaker 1:

It is also good for business. And you mentioned the SAF aspect of the pillars, the fuel pillar, if you would sort of, you know, put the pillars in height order, as it were, in a lopsided building. Are they sort of three even height pillars? Are they sort of one slightly bigger than the other, sort of how are you sort of looking at the impact and reliance of all the different pillars? Are they sort of equal weighted or it's currently some higher weighted, with a view sort of it changing over time? What does that look like?

Speaker 2:

so, from a focused perspective, all three are equally important to Gulfstream and, like I said, we can have the most control and influence over the aircraft, our operations.

Speaker 2:

And from a fuel perspective, it's how we use it and how we demonstrate compatibility.

Speaker 2:

So it's important for us to be active on all fronts. From a SAF perspective, the business aviation industry has committed to meeting the net zero carbon emissions by 2050, and one of the most important levers in reaching the net zero is the use of SAF, and so, being the leading manufacturer of business aircrafts, we support the goal and in doing so, we have to demonstrate that business aircrafts. We support the goal and in doing so, we have to demonstrate that our aircrafts are compatible with SAF. And also, we have committed to using SAF in our operations and we continue to do that. So, wherever it's available, the SAF blends are available. We use that in our operations and we understand our aircrafts best. Um, and really you know, our use of sap contributes towards achieving our own emissions reduction goal. It also provides our customers with the data, the confidence, for them to use that, and so we really believe in using sap in our operations and when you say use them in their operations, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1:

Is that like test flights and things like that and other things? What do you mean by the operations, your operations where you use SAF?

Speaker 2:

So multiple things. So Gulfstream is involved in the SAF ecosystem in a few different ways. Right One is a consumer of SAF. We demand signal to producers that we're going to continue to use SAF for our sustainability journey. On the ASTM evaluation process. So ASTM has an evaluation process for different SAF pathways. We are involved in the evaluation process and that advice that really is with a focus on safety, with a focus on the performance of SAF and SAF's properties. As the new pathways are developed, new types of SAF, the different properties are developed, we believe that it's important for us to understand the performance and the safety aspects. The other piece and what we use in our operations is testing higher blends of SAP, up to and including 100% needs SAP it's from HEFA. Any other pathways as they become available, we believe in helping AST and the batching process by testing them.

Speaker 1:

From the viewpoint and our experience so far, sap is really an important member in decarbonization um, what are some of the, the key sort of most notable examples, because there are a couple of things that you guys have done that people might not be aware of. There have been sort of landmarks moments for the development of the industry. So you just do, you just want to explain what they are and significance of them absolutely listen.

Speaker 2:

our journey with SAF started as early as 2011. You know, a Gulfstream G450 flight powered by a 50% blend of SAF and Jet K in one engine across the Atlantic and that's this is an OEM first right and we're talking about 14 years ago. And then since then, like in 2015, since 2015,. Like in 2015,. Since 2015, we've had SaaS supply agreements in place for our own use. So this includes, you know, as we talked about business operations, if we talk flight testing, flight operations. And then in 2019, we earned the Sustainability Leadership Award and that was from the Business Intelligence Group. It was for the SAF initiatives that we had in place and our significant contribution to the overall industry goals. So we're recognized for being leaders back in 2019. And as that time has passed, we've learned a lot and we have accelerated. So in 2021, gulfstream became the first company to earn sustainable wings certification. Again, it recognizes speed records that using SAF.

Speaker 2:

In 2022, we had the G650 complete its first 100% SAF flight by a business jet OEM using 100% NE sap in one aircraft engine. And then we took it another step. And then in 2023, november, the G600 flew from Savannah to Farnborough with 100% heifer in both engines, with no aromatics. So we just kind of continued to accelerate and test and understand the performance of sap, as well as our aircraft I mean. Finally, last year we conducted a ground emissions testing with 100% neat SAF. It contained zero sulfur. It was in our all-new G700. And again the key objective there was to understand the environmental characteristics of the different fuels from yours and the transatlantic flight with 100 south.

Speaker 1:

That was done a week before virgin did a similar thing on a commercial aircraft, so actually business aviation got there first, even though everyone praises virgin for their death flight a week after yours that's definitely a worse first. Yes, was that deliberate to go a week before them?

Speaker 2:

You can't really plan. You know a week and things like that. That's how it ended up happening. But you know, we have been working on that transatlantic life for quite a while. As you can probably imagine, it doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker 1:

Did you know they were going to do it a week after? Or were you surprised as anyone to see it a week after a pair and just like oh.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, I'm sure that there was news out there, but we are focused on our mission to get this done. You know more than anything else, yeah, and you know we've been working very closely with our suppliers of you know all of the systems of the aircraft. So, like I said, said it can't be planned to beat somebody by a week.

Speaker 1:

it's something that happened you mentioned the ground testing you did, um, you've done, and the work you've done with your, with your partners and one of them is obviously rosroyce, who you work very closely with on the engines for a lot of your aircraft. Do you want to explain how that works? Because obviously the engines are the things that are required updating and to be adjusted for the blending of SAF and alongside other things in the fuselage. But a lot of the challenges that SAF presents relate to the engine. So how are you working with them on making it safe and the ability to raise the blending from 50% to 100% SAF?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I mean, we work with our suppliers very closely in multiple aspects, right, like being a leading OEM that has an aircraft for every mission. It's very important to be lockstep with our suppliers. So, just looking at our staff milestones, you know we've used the G450, we've used 650, we've used 600. And these milestones with these different aircrafts are possible only with close working relationships. It's the engine suppliers, it's also the fuel suppliers, oscar, surprisingly, it's the fuel system suppliers. And, of course, you know, our employees, our points of contact, engage with suppliers.

Speaker 2:

We've engaged with Pat and Whitney Bolt, safran, honeywell, I mean, and everybody had, like I said, the ultimate goal in mind. Right, how do you make this safe? The important part is that SAF's performance is still a learning opportunity for everyone involved and we work with our suppliers in understanding that, learning that together, and so it's important to understand the impact of low to non-aromatic fuels on the systems, the engines and the performance of these systems and the confidence and so for all involved. You know the learning was important, the testing was important, the amount of time that we invested together as a team was important, but there's a sense of pride and a motivation in working on these breakthrough innovations. You know that's what I've found in working with the teams here, as well as with our suppliers. You know we are advancing Gulfstream's continuing work to lead the industry's sustainability efforts and everybody you know wants to be part of that. You know wants to be part of that.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned, you started 2011 with first flight sort of 50% blend and one engine, and from there you scaled to transatlantic with two engines, a hundred percent SAF blend. What have you learned? What are the big things you've learned about integrating SAF and the role that SAF has to play along that journey? Because you know it's 12 years, I was never very good at maths but over that sort of long period of testing and working with partners, what are the big things that you can take away from that so far and sort of apply going forward?

Speaker 2:

The first thing that we have learned is that it's important to be committed. Our strategy has remained constant over the last decade or so. The same really is not. You know, like I said, for us it's not just the right thing to do, it's good for business, and fuel, as you can see, is part of our three pillars approach. So, first of all, that commitment is important. Our commitment to procure and use SAP has also been consistent over this time and you know we've continued in that direction.

Speaker 2:

We're working with different fuel providers, so we have a good relationship where we get to see more about the fuel and the blends of SAP and their experience in handling and using SAF. We continue to enhance our understanding of the environmental impacts of higher SAF blends, especially 100% new SAF right. Especially, our engineering team, our design team, our experts in the aircraft system, They've learned and they're still learning about the fuel property limitations and that's why our contribution to the ESDM evaluation process is so important. It's to make sure the fuel is safe and that it performs to our expectation and this time that we've invested the people and the expertise that were invested, they're quite key there. Now our flight operations and procurement teams have also learned a lot about handling the fuel Various sources, where do we get the fuel from? What's the feedstock and so we've, literally over this time, built a cross-functional group internally that works together on our SAP roadmap do your customers ask you about SAF?

Speaker 1:

Because you've got, you know, gulfstream's, got Gulfstream's targets and think what you're working towards as a company and you're doing aviation demand signals. Are your customers coming to you and asking about SAF or is that there are other things on their minds when they're talking to you about buying an aircraft?

Speaker 2:

Well, a significant portion of Gulfstream's customers are corporations and we are seeing more of them aligning their business jet operations with their corporate sustainability and responsibility goals. So, as a result, they want to work with a nonprofit manufacturer like us that shares that commitment to sustainability. And so we get asked about our sustainability journey. We get asked about progress towards our goals, our environmental stewardship initiatives in our operations. We get, you know, we get, we get. We get a lot of this conversation going during our engagements. We also get questions about the aircraft's environmental efficiency properties, staff being one of them, compatibility with sac lens, also sustainable cabin materials. So we do get a very comprehensive engagement going with our customers.

Speaker 1:

Has that changed? I know you've been at Gulfstream since you know 2024, so not that long, but do you think that conversation has changed with customers? Are they more, do you think they're more aware than they were, say, 10 years ago when you guys were starting out on this sustainability journey?

Speaker 2:

I believe so, um, I believe that customers are now much more nuanced in what they're looking for. They understand, you know, sustainability initiatives, progress challenges, and a lot of them are actually open to sharing best practices, um, and so I think it's become much more of a collaborative journey now, um, and I'm I'm just enthused by, you know, just the amount of acceleration that this is taking and do you think this can be applied to business aviation more widely beyond gulfstream?

Speaker 1:

do you think there's enough of a drive from to business aviation more widely beyond Gulfstream? Do you think there's enough of a drive from the business aviation industry to promote the use of SAF, the importance of SAF, particularly to the corporate customers as well as the high net worth individuals as well? But trying to sort of help them understand, because obviously SAF's very confusing and there's a million acronyms that people need to learn I'm still convinced that most people just pretend to know a lot of them. That's certainly what I do, but so I mean it's challenging, but do you think there could be more to be done to promote this?

Speaker 2:

So I can't speak for the other parts of the business aviation industry, but as a leading OEM, I mean we're driving, I think, the two most important initiatives that are within our control and within our competency right. We're testing the compatibility of our aircrafts and the systems with all these SAF lens from different pathways, and that's helpful. Our work as part of the ESG evaluation process that's crucial. And then using SAF lens in our own operations flight testing, flight operations during EIS, during demonstration flights that's when the customers see it too right.

Speaker 2:

Sap demand is influenced by availability, it's influenced by pricing, and both of those really require a lot of other stakeholders in the SAP ecosystem to do their part, and so we need to bring SAP in close parity with jet fuel and a reliable supply. We want to see the demand increase and we want to see more of our customers and operators take in. Business aviation can show they're a part of the premium for SAF, and I believe some of our customers are already doing that, as they have decarbonization goals to achieve, are already doing that, as they have decarbonization goals to achieve, however, at a scale that we need SAF to be produced and consumed. There are these other constituents that really need to come together with the same level of commitment to make it a ground reality.

Speaker 1:

What does a demo flight on SAF look like versus a demo flight? How can I tell?

Speaker 2:

That's the part that you can't tell. The aircraft flies the same do you fly?

Speaker 1:

do you paint it green or something?

Speaker 2:

we try not to. The important part is you know, um, that there should be no difference, right? That's the intent of the evaluation process to make sure SAF is safe and the aircraft reacts the exact same way that it would to jet fuel. The main thing is the life cycle of the SAF itself and that kind of reduces the overall emissions.

Speaker 1:

You're also part of the Business Aviation Coalition for Sustainable Aviation Fuel. I'm trying to say that five times quickly in a row.

Speaker 2:

Is there an?

Speaker 1:

abbreviation for that. Has that got an acronym?

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 1:

No, so that's the one thing without an acronym. What's that doing as a you know, a coalition? Is that grouping together and sort of accumulating goodwill and, you know, aviation expertise to try and drive this conversation forward? What, what is it like? Could you just sort of give people an understanding about what's what it is and what? What's that doing?

Speaker 2:

yeah, it's more than that. So business aviation coalition for you know sustainable aviation fuel is is essentially that a group of international aviation organizations working together. It was created in the beginning to address a knowledge gap um the availability and the safety of SAF and SAF was brand new and to just advance the use of these alternative chest fluids. So, with the climate change commitment from the industry, it's really imperative to share knowledge and work together to make progress on multiple fronts, especially sustainability, and at that time, everybody was working on small pieces on this big puzzle, and so the safety and performance of SAP really required the stakeholders to come together. So VMs, operators, the fuel producers, the distributors, right the blenders, and so it really was to share best practices at all levels to help accelerate and bring SAF to market.

Speaker 1:

And what are your thoughts on? It's a slightly contentious topic book and claim because this side of the pond it's still working out. It's got a lot of traction over in the US and it sort of aligns with the corporate customers that you're sort of. Who are your customers? They're the prime candidate, the targets for this book and claim model as well. So what do you think that role's got to play, particularly for business aviation that's flying to where airports and fbo's that aren't necessarily don't access the physical fuel itself? There's not necessarily so active, um so much supply there. So do you think this is um something that needs to be grown and expanded to accommodate and facilitate increased usage and for various customers on various routes around the world?

Speaker 2:

you hit the nail on the head right. Saf is produced in places where you know the feedstock accessible. It's responsibly procured with the infrastructure that is available and that may not be close to an airport. It's definitely usually not close to some smaller airports where business aviation flies. So in fact, there are many small regional airports where calling staff from the production facility to the airport site completely negates the emissions reduction right. So it is important that a mechanism like Book Coin is available for customers and operators that are willing to pay for it. I think it supports production, as the premium is used to support fuel producers and the fuel is actually delivered to a physical location. Over these last few months, you know, with SAF accounting becoming more transparent, more reliable, book and claim could be an effective mechanism for those who do not have direct access to SAS for their airplane. So I would say if you have access to SAS, put it in your airplane. If you don't, book-in claim is the next best thing. So they can also support the production of SAS wherever they operate with book-in claim.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned earlier that you're working not just on heifer but you're looking with, alongside the, the astm testing. You're looking at second generation, third generation, when we're talking um future saf, um production pathways, and obviously your role as an oem is there in the, the testing that you're doing. Is that that sort of the primary way you see your sort of ability to help accelerate those future pathways or are there other things that potentially you as an OEM or the business aviation industry can do to help facilitate their growth? Because I think it's a pretty settled point of view that heifer is not going to get us anywhere near to the required levels for 2050 and as soon as you get to around 2030, there's going to be we're going to reach a tipping point in terms of production demand and feedstock availability.

Speaker 2:

So what's your role and the business aviation role wider and accelerating future production pathways so, as an oem, let me take that big push right as a key stakeholder in the performance of the fuel in the system and in the aircraft. I mean we understand our aircraft and fuel systems and performance as well. We also have, importantly, very strong, deep relationships with our suppliers of this confidence. So I'm not speaking for other OEMs, but Gulfstream is very thoughtful in the way we engage in staff qualification evaluation to make sure that, from our perspective, the fuel is safe, it's compatible with our aircraft and the performance and the system.

Speaker 2:

There are a number of, you know, small and large fuel producers that are very competent in different SAF development technologies and pathways and that comes from spending their time building that competency. So, with the diverse pathways and feedstock availability in different parts of the world, we've seen already what eight pathways comes through, right. So our role, I think, I believe, is to engage with multiple producers of these different pathways and understand the performance of the fuel, because it is different when it comes from different pathways and I think that's where we kind of have the most impact to make on the SAF ecosystem. Now, business aviation, as I mentioned, we can. You know we have the ability to innovate faster than general aviation right so we can use staff, we can do these test flights that generally are harder for the other players to do, and so I think that's where business aviation has the most impact to make the test, to look at the performance, to make sure it's safe.

Speaker 1:

And famously the winglets, which are now commonplace on most aircraft, originally were a business aviation innovation that's been imported and used across aircraft globally commercial and business aviation. So that's one example and I'm sure there are many others that I can't remember. But business aviation's role as a beachhead is is critical if there's suitable demand, and you know, this testing and um sort of legwork that can allow commercial aviation to adopt later down the line is so important for the long term absolutely, and we cannot forget that aspect.

Speaker 2:

Right like we are innovators, we have done a lot of testing, um, and development, um, and, and obviously the learnings that we get will translate into general aviation how much SAF does Gulfstream use now?

Speaker 1:

say sort of you know, take a year, how much are you using now and how much are you planning to have you got a an outlook to how much you want to use by 2030, 2035, 50, sort of going on sort of how much? How many molecules are we talking about here?

Speaker 2:

so that's a bit of a hard number to give you. So let me let me give you this perspective. Our staff usage really depends on a few different factors. One is the location where we are location of operations and location of testing. Two different things Our fleet availability, where we are very, very key, and the price, because we're not doing book and claim, we are focused on procuring SAF.

Speaker 2:

So, based on our locations, we have access to 70, 30 blends or 60, 40 blends of SAF from HEPA consistently, and so we continue to explore other SAF blend availability based on ASCM kind of recommended blend limits, right? So that's one lever or one aspect that influences our SAF usage year on year. The other piece is that just low environmental impact fuels. They have been part of our three-pillar sustainability strategy and they will continue to be part of the strategy, and so we will continue to procure and use SAF in our operation. The volumes have varied over time based on the blend ratios that we get from our suppliers and the availability. For us it's important to understand the feedstock, where it's coming from and the entire CI index of the fuel that we're getting. So we continue to engage with the right stakeholders to keep that consumption and I believe it's going to be steadily increasing over the next decade or so.

Speaker 1:

So, in summary, saf, there is some volume now with you to increase in the future is what I've gathered from that.

Speaker 2:

That's a good summary, Oscar.

Speaker 1:

That's a good summary. I thought so Well. On that note, Smitha, thank you so much for joining us and explaining all the work that Gulfstream's doing in this space and business aviation and accelerating sustainable aviation fuel. It's been a pleasure. It's my pleasure, Thank you.