The SAF Podcast

The SAF Podcast: EcoCeres - Planting the seeds for SAF's bumper harvest

• SAF Investor • Season 3 • Episode 25

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This week Matti Lievonen, EcoCeres joins Oscar on The SAF Podcast. Matti shares insights from his illustrious career from the transition from traditional refining at Neste to pioneering renewable fuel production in the rapidly expanding Asian SAF market.

The conversation reveals the company's innovative approach to feedstock traceability, managing relationships with over 100,000 restaurants for used cooking oil collection, and their breakthrough "easy tracer" technology that tracks feedstock origins down to individual 30-kilogram contributions.

This startup mentality, backed by significant investment from Bain Capital, has enabled rapid expansion with facilities in China and Malaysia collectively producing over 700,000 tons annually.

The discussion explores critical industry challenges including feedstock security, the potential impact of China's anticipated SAF mandates in their upcoming five-year plan, and the complex dynamics between regional production and global supply chains. Lievonen addresses the tension between Europe's preference for local production versus Asia's capacity for large-scale, cost-effective manufacturing and export.

Key topics include strategic partnerships with airlines like British Airways, the role of private equity investment from Bain Capital and Kerogen Capital, and the urgent need for policy harmonization across regions to accelerate SAF adoption. Lievonen also discusses consumer education challenges, cost reduction strategies through novel feedstock development, and the collaborative ecosystem approach needed to achieve aviation's 2050 decarbonization targets.

Despite current cost barriers, Lievenen remains optimistic about SAF's future: "If you think about the time track, SAF has been now like five years old. If you think about fossil fuel, it's 100 years old. So we have time, and I'm sure we could find a way to make SAF very competitive but also well-used." Through collaboration across airlines, suppliers, and governments, the vision of truly sustainable aviation feels increasingly within reach.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to yet another episode of the SAF podcast this week. I'm absolutely delighted and really excited to be joined by Matti Lievenen from EcoSeries, and Matty has been CEO since January. Previously he was CEO and president at Neste. He's got a very long and illustrious career in the biofuels space, which he is far more qualified to explain to you than I am, and we're going to be talking about EcoSeries, the Asian SAF market and the wider global SAF alignment in terms of policy and market dynamics to really accelerate global production and supply. So, matt, thanks so much for joining us.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, oskar, great to be here with you and all the public who will listen to us.

Speaker 1:

And all the listeners as well, so I'm sure they're going to be fascinated to hear what you've got to say. But before we get into EcoSeries, do you just want to take us through your background, your career and how you ended up in your current position?

Speaker 2:

your background, your career and how you ended up in your current position. Yeah, it's a very interesting thing and, of course, I have decades of experience about the energy industry, pulp and paper sustainability industries, been abroad many, many years and then leading Neste during the transition from traditional refining company to the most biggest and best renewable company, and that was a great 10 years and I always remembering very well that. So that was a great thing and I have always interested in. You know how we could make this world better, how we get the cleaner sky, how we get people to enjoy, and I'm so proud that after nested, there was paint capital who is our owner. He contacted me and said do you want to work with us, like you know, the investor advisor, and I said that I need to look at what is your company eco service and I did my due diligence and I found out this is really amazing.

Speaker 2:

This is a pure play company. Renewable company. It's you know, it's own. We have our own IPRs, own technology, everything. We have everything in one packet. So what's coming to? Catalyst those who know Catalyst is very important. That's our own development. We have a company who is producing that. So we are really our own, but it doesn't mean that we want to be our own. We want to be, you know, very outside in the company. Who is taking universities, customers, clients, airplane suppliers with us and that's what we are creating sort of ecosystem, and that's what fascinated me. Someone could say that, hey, you have done enough, it's better to stay home. But not me. I like to really to contribute to the world and the sustainability, and Ecosur is a fantastic company for that.

Speaker 1:

There must be something in the water, because this is the second company that we've had on the podcast, recently with a with a classical themed name. We had Sin Helion with the with the Greek name recently, and now we're moving into the Roman sphere with Eco series as well. What do you think behind that?

Speaker 2:

no, it's because you know the card. In the Latin system, the card is Seres. Who is cultivating, who is the agriculture, who is the green base? That's the behind, and we are very proud because our company is pure play and it's only using the waste. We don't use any edible oils or anything, so we are turning the waste. So we don't use any edible oils or anything, so we are turning the waste really to wonder. So that's, that's our. You know the tagline also, and then what we are doing also. So you must have your name must resonate what you are doing also I love, I love the name the?

Speaker 1:

um the classicist in me really resonates with. With all of these classically themed company names, I have to say yeah do you? Want. Do you just want to explain to people that maybe aren't so familiar? You know what your involvements are, what your projects are sort of and sort of what your sort of production sort of capacity sort of looks like.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so EcoShare. So, as I said, so we have our own technology to produce just a bit of aviation fuel, renewable diesel called HVO, and then we have also the bio-nafta for the chemical industry. But we are really the SAF company because we can produce 85% of SAF. I think that the yield is probably the highest in the world. What we are producing and this is the beauty of this whole process, because we could be also the flexible either renewable diesel or SAF, but we believe very much in SAF and later on we'll probably touch on that so we are producing now in China, changzhou 350,000 tons a year, saf and hvo, and then in malaysia. So we are now starting up. So fourth quarter we will have a production 420 000 tons. So overall over 700 000 tons saf, hvo and we claim to be the second biggest SAF producer in the world and our growth rate is very fast because we started this Malaysian project two years back and now we're up and running. It's really the world class, really, really you know the top, not.

Speaker 2:

So plant and of course, the plant is one thing, but the most important thing that you have the whole ecosystem around ready. So you need to have a feedstock. We have a different feedstock, like used cooking oil, olme, animal fat, fish fat, so very flexible with all the feedstocks. And then you need to have your customer base. So that's also where we are proud of that. We we have been entering, you know, the European markets, the Asian market and having good customer base, and it's really important to have those. But that's not enough.

Speaker 2:

The traceability, the sustainability, is also the number second or number one issue and I could be very proud today. Today I had a discussion with our feedstock people and they presented me, you know, the easy tracer and that's fantastic easy tracer. So it tells that where our feedstock is coming. You know the restaurant level 30k kilo where it's come from. We can see that we registered that. That's all in our traceability, because the first traceability that you need to be ICC certified, but we have level two so we know where the things are coming from and that's available.

Speaker 2:

So I think that when you are building something, you need to think about the whole ecosystem. It's not only plant Probably plant, everyone could do. You need to think about the whole ecosystem. It's not only plants Probably plants everyone could do but you need to think about the whole ecosystem and that's what we are so very proud at the end of the year we have, you know, over 700,000 tons production capacity. We are second biggest and really reliable supplier. Earlier we had one plant, now we have two and then we have three, four years to come. So we have a growth company.

Speaker 1:

You touched on the. I like the idea of sort of easy traceability and it sounds very sort of almost idealistic in the sense that everyone knows how fragmented the feedstocks supply chain, particularly you're dealing with yeah, would use cooking oil is for this and how challenging that is and reflecting that in this, the sustainability, transparency and the credibility of this that's how, how big of a challenge and how much time is devoted to nailing that aspects of it it's uh, of course you need to have a.

Speaker 2:

You know the technology behind digital that you can do it, but then it's a big challenge. You get you know the suppliers to really feed in those information and we started about two years back that now we, we are almost ready and you could not imagine how many restaurants there are who are supplying for us. It's a hundred thousand. So my always asked that yeah, because you have like a 30 kilo per restaurant, maybe per week or per day, and you have thousands and thousands, a hundred thousand of people who are sending. So it's a challenge and we were always to be the forerunner. So it's easy to be and, okay, we have a icc certified company and that's it. No, it's not enough. You need to be go further and further, and we hope that everyone is coming that, because then the industry get you know the credibility and that's important because there's always a lot of questions around this industry Is it the greenwashing? Are there the frauds? Whether you are yourself, it's easier for the whole industry.

Speaker 1:

Have you been to hundreds of thousands of those restaurants to sample them yourself? No, unfortunately not, but you you've 20,000 through, about a fifth of the way there.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no, no, no. It's impossible. But imagine that it's not, that you have, you know the oil field where you pump, you know the 10,000 barrel per day and then you're happy. No, it's a 30KT. So it's a 30K. So it's amazing. It's amazing.

Speaker 1:

And it's 30k here. So it's, it's amazing. It's amazing. And where do you supply to? What sort of is the percentage? That sort of stays regionally, what sort of? You mentioned that. Um, you go to europe, so, yeah, where does the final product supply end up?

Speaker 2:

yeah, it's uh. Of course you know, oscar, that the europe is the most developed in the uk with the SAF mandates, and a big part of our products is going, of course, to Europe and the Europe-UK. But there is a growing demand also will be in Asia. So Singapore is putting their mandates, japan is putting the mandates. We are supplying Australia, new Zealand and even in China there is a discussion about the mandates. We are supplying Australia, new Zealand and even in China there is a discussion about the mandates. But so far the biggest market is, of course, the UK and Europe, especially because there is these mandates in the place. So those are our markets.

Speaker 1:

And You've actually had quite a busy year in terms of offtake and making announcements in terms of airline partners. You had an announcement with British Airways. What goes into deciding those partners, negotiating, working out who you're actually going to partner with on the airline side for offtake and your final product.

Speaker 2:

Obviously it's not one shorty that we go in and we want to work with you. It's a two or three-party thing. So you need also then the AFS supplier who is fulfilling those plans, but mainly the airlines. They are interested in that. Do you have a secure supply? Your quality is good, your greenhouse emission reduction is good, you are trustworthy and we are looking the same. So we don't want to be only the one-shot supplier, but can we create the more strategical alliance?

Speaker 2:

I have a dream and I think that it will come true, for example, in Malaysia. So Malaysia, you have a feedstock, you have a production plant, you have a big, you know the KL airport. So I like to make you know the ecosystem that it's a rotate inside in Malaysia. But of course, the planes who are coming, they could fulfill, you know. Then fill up with our SAF, and I think that it's not too far as a dream.

Speaker 2:

I think that it's because then, if you think about the really circular economy, that's it. You lower the greenhouse emission because your logistic distance is very short. You are doing everything in, let's say, 400 kilometers radius, the greenhouse emission, because your logistic distance is very short, you are doing everything in, let's say, 400 kilometers radius and that's something. It's a big and even in like in Malaysia, if they take a 5% mandate, it's about 200,000 tons. So, and that's what we want to also replicate discuss with the governments, discuss with the airlines and the suppliers, so that how we could make this sort of ecosystem to really promote and then doing the good for the planet.

Speaker 1:

In your dream? Is that ecosystem involving lots of very sophisticated partnership sort of relationships, or is it sort of eco-series, expanding its scope into sort of other aspects that are really important to building this ecosystem? How do you visualize that?

Speaker 2:

it's a visualize. You need to know government who is doing, who knows that that's important and then pushing through all these mandates greenhouse gas reduction that they understand. Then you need the suppliers who understand that this is good for them, good for the nation. Then you need the airports and the airlines who are committed for that, and more and more the airlines are committed, even with mandates or without mandates. And you need to be that and we want to be the coordinator or the big partner.

Speaker 1:

you know all of this and I think that it will come, it could come is this sort of realization of this wider sort of ecosystem where sort of real difference can be made, sort of where you see the company's growth, you sort of can build these hubs with really sophisticated, you know arrangements and ecosystems to really push forward the sustainability criteria and you're going to go and sort of plug into them with different facilities in different regions. Is that where you sort of see the long-term strategy?

Speaker 2:

oscar, that's absolutely so and because, being you know the supplier, that supply, you know it's, of course it's a value added also there and then it's. But be the active player and find the places where you could really replicate those things. And that's exactly where we look at the growth also and then how we can do it. And and I think that we are in the right path. And you know one other thing when I say that we are the pure play renewable company, it means that we do not have any, any legacy from the past, from from refinery side or any side. So we could. We started like, uh, from the white paper and that's something. And I should say that of course we are the startup, big startup, but we are startup company. So we do not have all the things like a big companies, but we are building those from the scratch and probably more leaner way, more agile way, and that's that's, you know, the beauty to be part of this sort of company is?

Speaker 1:

Is that sort of pure play startup nature? You've come from sort of the transitioning world in Neste, where you've got this big legacy of oil refining and you're looking to transition. Have you enjoyed the sort of the how nimble and flexible that a startup, a big startup with sort of you know, starting from a white paper, as you said, being able to sort of go and push your ideas quite aggressively?

Speaker 2:

yeah, that's, that's fantastic, because you could really go for and you don't need to all the time make explanations why we should do that, why we are not doing this all the way, uh. But then there is also challenges. When you have a startup, so you, you, you, you are, you don't have all the structures at the beginning, but later, you, later, when you have a startup, so you, you, you, you are, you don't have all the structures at the beginning, but later, you, later on, you have all the structures on the place. So this is also the fascinating thing.

Speaker 2:

And one other thing to be the fascinated is the really good person in what we have very young, enthusiast. Uh, I'm like a grandfather for them, but that's good because I like to be the grandfather. But yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating to work in this sort of environment because it's fast moving and you need to make a decision very fast and and and then, you know, find a good people. And one good thing you know, if I think about the sort of new, new technologies and, like SAF and the others, the young people when they join, and even SAF and the others, the young people when they join, and even the older and they join the company. It's the one thing that they want to do, something meaningful also for the nature and then for the future generation, and that's something that would inspire me a lot also.

Speaker 1:

One of the sort of the aspects of the asian market that everyone sort of certainly from europe and the us look at it and find quite amazing is the speed that you can see facilities across the region sort of pop up. They, they can be built extremely quickly and it's very sort of proactive. We I had, we had a recent episode with the asia saf association and they was we were talking a lot about the pragmatism in asia, realizing that this is this is not a sort of a short-term opportunity, it's actually a realistic long-term strategy that people are buying into and they're sort of building these facilities. Are the speed of these facilities? How does that affect sort of your outlook and how you sort of react as a company with sort of lots of other players developing different projects around the region very quickly?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, let's say that we are very pragmatic, so we are leading this pack, so that's what we should say that we are leading the back to road. Then there is a lot of announcements but not too many projects in fact. So there was like three years back there was a huge amount of projects that was announced and later on it was drop out. You know those projects. But I think that if we want to really decarbonize the aviation, we need a lot of players and all the players need to be at the same level playing field, not that someone is getting more support. So that's what I like, and I like that there is also the different technologies, not only one. And yeah, it doesn't uh, you know prevent our growth plans and our plans going future. So it's good that there is a good competition, but I think that, most importantly, do they have a good ecosystem? What they're running?

Speaker 1:

with your. Obviously, you mentioned that bank capital are very, very heavily involved as investors and leaders in in eco series. You also had investments for an investment from kerrigan capital as well. Um, they were involved in the 2022 series, series a, and then bain did a another equity investment in in 2023. What you know were the outcomes of those investments. How are those sort of continual relationships with those crucial investment partners sort of maintained and how important are they as sort of being really strong involvements in in the eco series in helping you sort of define strategy and sort of looking forward?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think that this are. It's a great example that. So those big investors came. I can can read their pen and you know it's very rare that they are investing.

Speaker 2:

You know the, the companies, that there is a growth, a huge growth. Of course they have that also, but what does tell that? They also saw that there is something special in this company and their investments. Of course, it was put that we could have actually a double growth. You know the Malaysia and the third land, so that's really really important. The other thing is that, when you bring, you know theaysia and the third land, so that's really really important. The other thing is that there, when you bring, you know the private equity inside, so you get those of the structure and and I must say that we, as a private equity people, so we, we, we want the result fast, agility and itself it's probably always not the easiest way to work, but it's very efficient. But I must say that, like Bain Capital, like Aerochain, they bring you know good people. It's good to work with them. They understand the industry and our strategy very well. So, yeah, it's fantastic to be with those people, so it's helping us to grow.

Speaker 1:

And on that sort of the growth. Obviously it's very capital intensive doing you know, designing projects. It's billion dollar projects. How you know, do you go around building that sort of looking for investment, finding money, the capital to actually input these facilities? I know you've got one that's operational and you're working on one in Malaysia. How do you go about doing that?

Speaker 2:

We have the investors paying capital and paying the capital, paying the garage and so, and then we have a cash flow from our existing operation. Now we are up and running soon. You know the Malaysia, so we could also finance you know the third plant our own cash flow, and then we have investors, so we don't need to go and pecking you know other investors because we are a very big investor, someone who is putting 700 million. It's a big amount of money. So that's a good thing, so that we could concentrate also, you know, the growth in our own way and with the help of investors.

Speaker 1:

I think that is one of the things you see a lot of people that devote so much time and effort into discussing with investors. They have big investor tables and they spend a lot of their time, you know, raising capital or deploying capital or negotiating with investors. But you, you don't have to worry about that because you know, no, no, no, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

And you know, when I joined so I did my own due diligence with, with Ben Capital and we this is no brainer so so they was ready to put the money in and get written earlier. So, yeah, in that, in that respect, we are very fortunate situation and, of course, because I say that we are startup but we are profitable startup, so already now, so it's, it's good you you mentioned earlier about policies that are that are cropping up around asia, which is sort of their cue to sort of be implemented soon.

Speaker 1:

I know singapore's already got policy in place, but one of the big sort of talking points around policy is the potential policy and the potential of a mandate that comes from china. With the, you know, the fifth five-year plan due to be announced sort of at the end of this year. How does that and what do you see the effect of you know, a potential mandate in china sort of affecting the asian saff market more widely and equally your, your strategy um going forward because it could have a huge global saff implication should there be a form of policy coming out from china?

Speaker 2:

it's a very, very interesting question and uh, and it's very difficult to predict that when China really put the mandates. There is a very strong view nowadays that they will put the mandate into place. So I think that it's helping, you know, the local soft producer very much. But if you look at the longer term, it's also affecting the global soft producer because China is the biggest UCO provider. So if there's more and more demand in the homeland, so how much there will be then export UCO available. So I think that, as you mentioned, there could be the big shuffle, probably not now, in a few years' time, but let's say, five to ten years' time. It will be the effect and how it's really affect ours.

Speaker 2:

So of course we have a plant in China. Of course then we could enjoy also that market. But it's also put for us the pressure that we need to think about. You know about our feedstock strategy Novety feedstock more than used cooking oil, and that's the big part of our R&D also. We have a very big R&D. We have 100 people in our R&D, so we are really the forerunner also with that. So I think, oskar, that your question is absolutely right. What people should think about it, even if you have a one feedstock, it's probably not available forever. So everyone should think about that, and I think that china, china, is doing the mandates absolutely interesting.

Speaker 1:

So I suppose we've got to wait to the end of the year to to find out for sure what that looks like. But hopefully I think it'll be interesting to see the the reaction from the industry, whether there'll be sort of widespread supports or whether there'll be some sort of hesitancy about it when you're looking at sort of other regions, like like europe, about the impacts it could have on on the export um side of things. On that, what do you think about the, the difference between in europe there's a lot of focus on regional project development, regional supply, making sure that the fuels produced locally to where it's going to be used and not transporting it across the world for obvious carbon emissions perspective versus the idea that you can develop projects of large scale very quickly in asia and just build this large scale supply because everyone's talking about there's not enough supply to meet demand and you could actually just build a very sophisticated export market from Asia. What are your thoughts on balancing those two aspects?

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because there is a two-way. You have a feedstock and you have a production. So if you don't have a feedstock and you need to import a feedstock, you could have a local production but you still have a production. So if you don't have a feedstock and you need to import a feedstock, you could have a local production, but you still have a. You know the carbon leakage. Then you could have, you know your production where is the feedstock and you have a carbon leakage. It's always so.

Speaker 2:

I I think that it's a bit, uh, you know, difficult to say that what is the best there? I think that one thing to europe, what we should do in europe, is that we should be more flexible with, uh, you know this, uh, permitting issue. It's take a long time to get the permits to build anything, uh. So if it's, if I start now in europe, it's probably that in five years time I could have a production there. Five years a a long time. So I think that what we should speed up in Europe, it's permitting things. Then I think that also, these are Asia, that there is coming more capacity, but it's probably in five years time, 10 years time we stay in Asia. So it's not so that Europe is sucking all the products and then Asia is producing.

Speaker 2:

I think that it will go the other way around and the thing is that you should think about this whole SAF. It will be divided it's Europe, it's South or Asia, it's Latin America and it's North America. There will be the four different SAF markets and probably also four different sort of feedstock standards, also how we do those products. So I think that it's not going to be that you have one harmonized global system, as you have in maritime, because you have IMO. So they said, okay, now we need to have so much renewable fuels in our fuels and it will go all over. So it's much easier to implement. It's much more difficult to implement this SAF because of regional differences, but I don't think so that there will be the huge, massive plants in Asia. I think that the 500 kT, 600 kt, is the good thing. It's much easier to handle feedstock production hiccups and all those things, but it will be more regional. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

On that regional aspect and you what. There is sort of very strong regional differences, as you point out. Is there a need or a requirement for more sort of very strong regional differences, as you you point out? Is there a a need or a requirement for more sort of globalized thinking in terms of the sustainability criteria of of south? Because I know you guys published a paper specifically around the eu policies and looking at how more global alignments can be found that help stimulate a global market rather than separating regional markets, because then you'll start to see really strong stagnation and differences in where the fuel can be used, where it can be sort of applied in terms of mandates or get certificates. It's got all these very significant ramifications that you know.

Speaker 2:

Investors look at the airlines, look at when they're forming their investment or their offtake strategies yeah, oscar, this is the ideal world that if we have harmonized the things and of course we like to have that, probably the care politics today it's not so easy to do, but if you really want to support and get the, you know, saf, uh like everyday products, so we should uh harmonize the policies, give a right support and in the, in different region, uh, and that that's something that what we are looking, because what we are looking, because it's stuff could really decarbonize the aviation and uh more we are putting, you know, all kind of uh restriction that you cannot bring it here or you cannot use this feedstock if that, if it start uh be like a palms or even the effluent treatment uh in what is the most difficult, most emission release product.

Speaker 2:

So I think that it's there, but it's nowadays, you know, we have this geopolitics that everyone is, every region is protecting themselves. So we need to get over on that and I think that it will come, because you know, we all see that there is a big climate change. So, of course, one part is aviation, one is, you know, the road transport, and I'm the very big believer that the EV cars is coming even. You know it was stagnated last year 13% in Europe and now it's 18%. There was a Munich, there was a car show, so there was beautiful EV cars and I'm sure that when I'm listening and discussing now with the policymakers, the governments, the allies, they all see that we need that, what is the best way to do it, how we could harmonize the good, affordable pricing seed stock production. That's what we need to get to done.

Speaker 1:

And of course, one of the biggest breakthroughs in EV technology and making it more widely available came from China. That was very the in the game in terms of mass producing and making mass available functioning, sort of economic, economically viable electric cars. So there is absolutely no reason that an acceleration on one side of the the planet, if you're applying it to south, won't have beneficial knock-on effects for for the rest of the planet, if you're applying it to SAF, won't have beneficial knock-on effects for the rest of the world as markets sophisticate and develop.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, there is quite a lot of keypads that airlines have not enough products and producers realize that there is a product. So it's well. Yeah, it's always the question that which one comes first, but I think that what is important to really get the SAF demand up and the production capacity up is that you have really stable and predictable policies so that you don't need think about it. You're investing in 1 billion and maybe three years after you know the policymakers, makers are no. No, we have so bad economic conditions we need to lower the mandate. So one has invested the one billion there. So stable policymaker and the policies are really, really good for the industry and this industry needs you know the policies. If there is not a mandate, it's to not start general flight. It's like winter meals and the winter buy. So first there was the feed tariff. Now you don't need to be feed tariff and I hope that one day there is also the feed stock that is available and it's reasonably cost, because the feed stock would make also this price very, very, very expensive.

Speaker 1:

The policy is an interesting discussion because everyone talks about it and I've brought it up a few times before. Gene Gibolis from World Energy says that he's very open, saying that policy, certainly in the US, comes in four year cycles and you can have a policy put in place one minute and then a new, you know government comes in and, as we've seen in the us, gets totally revamped and changed and you go from having strong policy certainty to very strong uncertainty, just because you don't actually know which direction it's going. So there needs to be other sort of market sort of things involved in that, like really strong demand or, you know, investors taking, being brave and being bold where they're deploying capital, yeah, in order to sort of help one develop the policy. So it's very much sort of a chicken and egg situation. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And I think that there is this mandate is one, but then the voluntary demand is another, and I think that if you now book the tickets different airlines there is always the one column that you contribute to SAF. So I hope that this contribution to SAF is increasing and then the airlines really using this SAF then there, then we get the you know, the demand up, but also the production up, because it's not patient mandate you mentioned the um, the fact that you can go on any airline and there's an option to buy SAF and passengers can contribute if they want to, which is which is fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Do you think there's enough sort of wider education around passengers, around the benefits of SAF, understanding what it's actually doing, what it what they're contributing to in terms of you know when they select that option, and is that something that the industry should be worried about, needs to work on? More um is actually going to make that much of a tangible difference to growing, to growing production, having passengers just select. I know this is more a demand question and you're a producer yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's uh.

Speaker 2:

I think that it's absolutely right. I think that there is not enough education. So I think that the ev cars everyone understand that ev it's electricity, but then the system and aviation fuel it's a different thing, because people are what is the difference? So we do not have education and, uh, I was 2018 there's speaker in a yatta conference and no one there. There is no SAF available, and then, oh, it's so expensive.

Speaker 2:

I think that are we really using all the imagination, what you can do and what you can offer the people who are taking the box that I take to SAF? Do we offer them to something? Do we educate them? I think that there is a lot to do also in that front end and I think that airlines should do that. Maybe also the SAF producer could be also part of that. So, more education. I think everything is today's measure that it's more expensive to the passenger. But, oar, if you look at your flight before COVID, what was the flight price? What is the flight price today? It's much more expensive and flying is increasing five times per year. So it's not a rocket science. It's what we want to do as a people, what we want to be as a human people, what we want to be as a as a human. So do we want to change? You know this? This, uh, trajectory of climate change or not.

Speaker 1:

It's on the cost and you're absolutely right in pointing out how much flights tickets have gone up, how far prices have gone up since covid and there's. You know, stuff's very expensive and there's the narrative that passengers won't pay. This is probably sort of a two-parter One. Do you think that's true? Or do you think there's more tolerance in the robustness of aviation, the requirements of people using aviation to tolerate more costs if it was related to SAF, to tolerate more costs if it was related to SAF? And then two, if not, what are the levers that you can do as a producer to reduce the cost? Because a lot of the cost, as you said earlier, comes from the feedstock and a lot of it is actually not necessarily immediately in your control. But are there any things that you can do to, over time, bring the cost down? Because that's one of the driving, long-term driving conversations that are going on in the industry.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, if I started the latter part. So I think that it's really that we need to find, you know, the new feedstock which is more affordable, wider scope. It's taking time but we need to put effort there the producer, also the agricultural people, because there's a lot of land that's not used and not usable. We could find the crops that could be there. I think that the technology itself it's interesting. I think that there is not too much to do, but you could always decrease and the cost, and the cost could decrease also that you, you improve your production yield and all those things. So there's sort of technical part. But then, uh, you know these, uh, what people are ready to pay? I think that it's very, very thing, very pay. I think that it's very psychological question that what people are ready to spend.

Speaker 2:

You know, you take one cheap jet from Geneva to London costs 60 pounds. Then you take a train from the airport to the city, it's much more, it's double. You take a taxi, it's triple. And people are doing that. We was learned in the past that, okay, you could really fly very cheap, but now people are flying because flying is increasing. As I said, 5% here in Asia is still increasing, and I think that the thing will be that if it's increasing, increasing and we are not doing anything to the nature, the decarbonization, it will get fired back. And that's what I have read. If I'm the CEO of Airlines, I really think about it. It's not one or two years, but it's a longer term thing for sure. One final question before we wrap up I really think about it, it's not one or two years, but it's a long-term thing for sure.

Speaker 1:

One final question before we wrap up the globe has got very strong decarbonization targets going through to 2050. What needs to happen for the SAF industry to fulfill the totality of its projected role in that? Obviously it's not just about SAF, there's about you know other technologies, sort of electric and hybrid, flying and hydrogen, and you know emissions efficiencies of aircraft. There's other sort of bits that come to it. But what needs to happen for the SAF part of it to be able to fulfill its 60% I think it is roughly role in achieving those targets, because I think currently there's a lot of you know skepticism that it's on track to fulfilling that it in totality. So what needs to happen in the industry across the world to achieve that?

Speaker 2:

I think that the first thing is that, as I mentioned earlier, that there's a policy harmonization and a support for this industry, not probably the monetary, but we get the support that over the region we could have the policies that could help us. Then it's a big investment in infrastructure what you need to build around it, improve the production capacity, either new plants or then you get healed up. So that is important to have. Third point I think that should be mentioned earlier. So we get the cost reduction for the product itself. So that's coming. You know the Feastook side, and then probably also we should make some market incentives. You know passengers, maybe the allies, but all that we all supporting that and it's easy to say that done so.

Speaker 2:

But I think, like Europe, even to Asia, that they is still developing countries, but it's coming here, uh, then there what I mentioned earlier, that and you also that there it's a, it's, it's a really the uh feedstock for this very expensive. So diversification of feedstock and sustainability. So we need to find and then we need to prevent the frauds. And one very, very important thing is the industry collaboration and innovation, so that, as I said, we want to be the outside in, so we cooperate. So we should have a cooperation with the airlines, with the plane supplier, with the fish supply, with the machinery industry, all those things, and it's really, really important to do that.

Speaker 2:

And the last is the consumer and stakeholder engagement, so how we engage them, how we get this, as you mentioned, this education and all those things. So it's really crucial. So there's a lot to do and I think that, if you think about the time track, so I think that SAF has been now like five years old. It's going, and if you think about the Voss self-view, it's 100 years old. So we have a time and I'm sure that we could find a way how we could make the SAF very competitive but also well, used.

Speaker 1:

It sounds like there's a lot, of, a lot of work that can be done to make a big difference if there's the right forms of collaboration across industry and with industry and stakeholders. So that's everyone's push to get in a room, get conversing, get chatting with each other and collaborate to to help drive real change, not just regionally but but globally. So that's a very positive note to end on. So, massy, thanks very much for for joining us and being so, so candid with with everyone, with all the listeners.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thank you, oskar, great to be here. No-transcript.