The SAF Podcast

The SAF Podcast: Catagen - The modular route to decentralised SAF supply

• SAF Investor • Season 3 • Episode 27

Share episode

Hot off the heels of their public announcement, Mel Courtney, Catagen is the latest guest on The SAF Podcast. 

We discuss the spinning out of Catagen ClimaHtech Green Flight, utilizing the technology honed in the 15 years of emissions testing, for their modular sustainable aviation fuel facilities through electrified reverse water gas shift Fischer-Tropsch. 

Unlike conventional centralized refineries, their modular approach produces between one and ten million liters of neat SAF annually, designed to co-locate with existing renewable energy infrastructure. This strategy unlocks untapped potential from smaller wind farms across the UK and Europe that typically go underutilized by large-scale industrial operations.

We break down Catagen's financing strategy. Government grants helped reach TRL 7. Currently they are engaged in a SAFE note equity raise before opening up to a pre-FID £18m equity round. This is followed by a planned project investment bringing the total to £60m.

This small amount of investment compared to large centralised facilities is one of the benefits Mel highlights of the modular strategy. Others include the ability to co-locate with renewable energy infrastructure, feedstocks or airports offering great operational flexibility. 

We touch on the recent off take announcements from the launch with Ryanair and Shell Aviation Ireland, emphasising how modular SAF facilities can suit airline economics for regional carriers. 

If listening to the facility description wasn't enough you can see it via the link here: https://climahtechgreenflight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/2025.08.07_catagen_digital_launch_v4_subtitled-540p.mp4 

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Staff Podcast. And this week it's great to be joined by Mel Courtney from Catogen, who's had quite a busy couple of weeks, which we will get into. And today we're going to be looking at modular staff production. We're going to go into Catogen's technology, the company's history, as well as dive into some of the recent announcements and their ongoing strategy going forward. Mel, thanks so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks for having me, Oscar.

SPEAKER_00:

Appreciate it. Absolute pleasure. But before we get into Catogen and everything about the company, do you want to give everyone a flavor of your background and how you ended up in your current position?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, sure. So my background is mechanical and manufacturing engineering. I spent 18 years in a multinational PLC as a grad process engineer and then worked my way up into various general management and business unit director roles and finished up running their water and energy division as MD. So I went from the PLC corporate world, where I actually got reacquainted with catogen because we were looking at ways to get into hydrogen and e-fuels. So I reconnected with Dr. Andrew Woods, who was a year above me in Queen's University in Belfast, and also with Professor Roy Douglas, who co-founded the business with Andrew and spun it out of Queens 15 years ago. So I connected with Andrew and Roy and was really impressed what they had achieved in green emissions testing and what their ambitions were for climate technologies. So I'm with Caligan now 18 months, and we've been looking at the market verticals to deploy our proprietary technology. The first market vertical we're focusing on is sustainable aviation fuel. And it's a the core technology is our electrically driven chemical reactor. And the team have used that successfully over the last 15 years in green emissions testing and performing services for global OEMs, automotive companies, solid oxide fuel cell companies, and it's that same technology, that electrically driven chemical reactor we're now using to produce ESAF and BioSAF. So we think it's a really exciting opportunity.

SPEAKER_00:

Shortly, but before we get into that, you mentioned that Cassogen's had a 15-year history of emissions testing and is now looking at transitioning into SAF production and the modular SAF production. What prompted that shift from what is a very profitable business and adding this quite different element to it?

SPEAKER_02:

Good question. And I think it comes down to the purpose of the company. So the purpose in Catagen is to clean and decarbonize the air. And in our green emissions testing business, we've been able to support global companies do that through the removal of harmful knocks and SOCS and harmful emissions to ensure that catalysts perform over their lifespan. But we've recognised that aviation is one of those hard-to-abate sectors, and we want to use our technology to decarbonize those hard-to-abate sectors. So with 2.5% of greenhouse gas emissions coming from the sector, with it being an increase in problem due to a three-fold planned increase in those absolute emissions by 2050, we we can make a difference here with our technology. And we've clocked up almost 200,000 hours of this technology in our catalyst testing business, and it's about deploying it for a new application. So yeah, it's it's making a difference, helping us to deliver on our purpose, but also uh we think it's an interesting market opportunity as well because it's a key growth sector, and realistically, Oscar, SAF is the only solution to decarbonize aviation at scale. So the sector's not going to put up with stranded assets. They need a solution today, and SAF is that solution.

SPEAKER_00:

Did you I know you've only been there 18 months, but do you think there was an element of with the testing business there was more interest coming from from aviation, which sort of led the sort of the company to see this as a as a growth opportunity because as more and more other sort of um technologies and pathways to making staff emerge, and people coming to you going, can you test this and find the emissions reductions? Was that an element to it, or was it purely a more sort of internal company directive around the hard-to-abate nature of aviation, or an element of both?

SPEAKER_02:

I do think that it we've certainly felt that pull from the aviation sector, but we think the part of that pull has come from the mandates in the EU and UK. So I think it's look, I think I think the sector recognizes that it's going to take an ecosystem approach to this. We had we'd initially, you know, secured our Department for Energy Security and Net Zero funding in the UK, we'd secured that to develop e-desel, you know, as an alternative for for that, a synthetic diesel, but we quickly quickly recognize the market pull, say look, we need a solution for SAF, and we're looking for an e-SAF solution. So yeah, I think it's more the market forces pulling us in that direction, Oscar, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you can you? I know you've you've touched already on the the technology and the nature of it. Can you give people a bit more of a sense on you know what it is actually in practice and how if whether it's a case of simply using the testing technology and reapplying it in a new sort of environment or whether there's sort of adjustments that need to be made um around that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so we've we have two SAT pathways, and the first is our e-sAT pathway, and it uses electrification to Fisher trope technology to put it in a better context. So your listeners will have heard of gasification of fissure trope, it's a conventional process, but the difference with our tech is that we use an electrically driven reverse water gas shift process. We're electrically powering the Fisher Trope process as well. So we don't use any sacrificial gas, any sacrificial feedstock. That makes for a better carbon intensity score. It also makes for a better set of technoeconomics. So yeah, it's it's really that e-reverse water gas shift is a key differentiator with climate green flight and uh the catogen uh core technology.

SPEAKER_00:

And what's the the ongoing company company strategy? Are you looking at building, owning, operating facilities? Are you looking at licensing? Where's the long-term trajectory of catogen going?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so for for us to deliver on our purpose, we're gonna have to deploy this technology at a at a significant volume. Okay, so to do that, we think that's best served by partnering with other global or regional players to sub-license the technology onwards into projects. So for us, we're going to develop and build and operate a first-of-a-kind project. We may do several projects, but you know, we don't want to be build a build-on and operator long-term. We want to license this technology to others who can help us to deliver on our purpose.

SPEAKER_00:

What sort of size, you know, if you're looking at the first couple of plants facilities you're going to sort of develop yourselves, what sort of size are those projects going to be in with sort of looking at the licensing side? Are they going to be sort of the same size that you that you develop sort of in the first of a kind and second facility? And how big is sort of the sweet spot for Castrogen's technology?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so we think that the sweet spot for the technology today in its current design is between one and ten million litres of neat SAF output per annum. Okay. And for us, there's a there's a market reason behind that. So one of the barriers to SaaF deployment is the availability of renewable electricity. So if you were to take the UK, you know, 50% of the wind farms that are onshore in the UK have less than 10 megawatts of nameplate capacity. So if you're factoring in, let's say, the the load factor and capacity factors around that, you've got 50% of the wind farms in the UK are supplying around two megawatts of electricity output. So we our 1 million litres requires 1.8 megawatts. So we're tapping into the potential of existing renewable electricity assets. So that's why we've started with that, and we think there's a sweet spot between 1 and 10 million litres initially. So our business model sees us scaling out and scaling a number of these units in parallel, but we also have an opportunity to scale up the project size as well. But our initial focus, given that we've 200,000 hours of operational runtime at this size, is to scale out in parallel, Oscar.

SPEAKER_00:

And presumably this is why you're pursuing the sort of the modular approach, the idea that sort of it's a bit like Lego bricks, you can sort of plug them in. It's slightly more complicated than Lego bricks for most people, although I find Lego really difficult to do. So maybe it's just as difficult for me doing Lego and integrating your technology, who knows? Um but it's the idea of going where the energy is, going where you've got the renewables, and you can sort of put multiple of these smaller facilities dotted around in more convenient or accessible places where the energy feedstock is, allowing you to build capacity that way rather than these big, large, high, high-scale um facilities, more centralized.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, look, we we think the the conventional thinking or the incumbent thinking of the petrochemical industry is centralized plant. And if you were to electrify a plant of that scale, you're you're competing with an AI data center for that electricity, and you're competing with multiple other industries who are looking to decarbonize. So it's actually about unlocking the untapped potential of curtailed, constrained, available renewable assets today. And also, if you look at the the energy transition, it's made a huge shift with wind, solar, hydro, even now with you know nuclear and looking people looking into modular nuclear. So the energy transition has had a massive shift, and we think fuel production is going to go and have a similar shift, the difference being it'll happen faster. So yeah, we we we we think there's an important role to play with the decentralized technology, and we're we're excited about that. And maybe additionally, uh one of the barriers to you know scaling SAF is the availability of labor. So you know, a centralized stick-built infrastructure plant has got escalating EPC costs, it's got competing demands for skilled labor on site. So with our modular technology, it's factory engineered, it's prefabricated using conventional componentry. So we're opening up uh uh the the off-site manufacturability opportunity, we're we're given cost certainty to projects, uh, so we can get scale through manufacturability here as well and and solve one of the barriers to to progress in scale and staff.

SPEAKER_00:

It seems that the the ability to to scale quicker through a modular system is is really the the great appeal of this sort of structure and this sort of strategy. Because you can build things a lot quicker and you don't get tied down in the uh what everyone is well aware of the the challenges around building huge facilities. So uh do you see like is your solution more uh a quick accelerator of the industry with uh to sort of help build out uh ESAF capacity on rather than the sort of the long-term uh ability to meet the overall demand that aviation is going to see sort of when it comes to 2035, 2020 forty and ongoing as the aviation industry continues to grow.

SPEAKER_02:

So yes, we can we can help accelerate, we can help get to final investment decision quicker with our technology, but also uh we're gonna be we see an opportunity in the long run as well with this because uh if we don't unlock the potential of those 50% of wind farms, who will? You know, because it's no use to a centralized data center or to a centralized petrochemical SAF plant. So uh somebody has to do that, and with the Climatech e-reactor platform, we're do we're doing that. Also, we have designed our e-reactors to deal with automotive engine ramp up and ramp down, so we're used to the cycle of intermittency. So the technologies that can tolerate renewable power intermittency best are going to win. So we we think uh we have some really unique USPs in in that respect.

SPEAKER_00:

I want to touch on your sort of the financing and the sort of the FID, getting to FID on these facilities. So do you uh uh see challenges in reaching FID? Although these plants are smaller and they don't have the necessary costs, there's always the element of convincing investors of uh the application of technologies and the the scale up and the actual sort of market ROI that investors are going to see uh from these uh facilities. How are you going about sort of communicating to solve that problem?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so the what's what's exciting about this technology is that it's a small ticket price relative to centralized plant. So this is not an EPC contract that runs into uh hundreds of millions and a billion uh dollars or anything like it. This is a relatively low capital investment uh which de-risks it for investors. So but the good thing is that we know the technoeconomics work. You know, we've been working on the most energy efficient chemical e-reactor that we can develop since you know our our founder, Dr. Andrew Wood, started his PhD in the subject in 2005. So we're at this for 20 years. We know how to efficiently use renewable electrons to make green molecules, and uh yeah. Look, we we we think we have uh an important role to play in this SAF world, and we're feeling the pull from the market as well, Oscar. You know, we're feeling the pull going, you know, you guys are on with something here, we want to collaborate and partner with you.

SPEAKER_00:

What is what are Catogen's ongoing sort of investment? What's the ongoing investment strategy? What's sort of how has it been funded till now? Is it just purely from profits from the testing business? And that's sort of gone into it until now, and I now I know that it's climate age, climate green tech, green I I can't even say it. Climate climate tech green flight. I'll help you out there. So climate tech green flight, yeah. Yeah, climate. There it is. It's right in front of me, and I still couldn't even say it. So um age, silent age. Um, but that's been spun out from from Catogen and is now a sort of a set separate entity. So presumably the the investment is going to have to come from a different place now than it has been before.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so like funding and investments are really interesting topic for us. So, like as I said before, the core business was set up for green emissions testing, and that's a very profitable business for us in its own right. And we have been able to use profitability from that company to develop the climate technologies and and the staff technologies within that. But we've been working hard and um to secure eight UK government funding awards, competitive funding awards over the last number of years. So we've secured 22 million in uh awards mainly from the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, one from the Department for Transport as well. So that 22 million of non-dilutive capital has really helped us demonstrate these technologies to technology readiness level seven. Um, so but we recognize that to make the most of the market opportunity, now is the time for equity investment. We're doing that into Climatech GreenFlight. So this will be the first equity opportunity into the capazin group. We're starting off internally and we're uh raising a safe note, like a simple agreement for future equity. It's an equity instrument whereby some early strategic partners will get in early and then there's they will convert to shares at a premium number of shares in the first round proper. So we would envisage our roadmap having a first round fundraise of 18 million, and then that's pre-FID and then post-FID 42 million. Uh so in total, 60 million fundraise to deliver our roadmap, and we're kicking off with and we're running an internal process with a small number of strategics for that safe note investment opportunity.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a huge amount lower in terms of FID than than other facilities are having to earn. It's it's going into the hundreds of millions, potentially the billion the billions for this to reach sort of FID for other more centralized facilities. And you're talking about 18 million for sort of pre-fID. Yeah, yeah. And then you'll reach FID at that stage. It's a this that's a drastic difference.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but you know, what we're doing with this is we're not entering into huge civils works. Uh we're setting down modular technology onto uh a concrete lint. You know, this will be shipped, one of our e-fuel generators will be shipped in four uh transport loads, you know. So we're we're making the most and I think the to maybe flip the proposition, we're proven that the technoeconomics can work at a small a small scale, which unlocks the opportunity for renewable electrons. So if we can if we can if we can make uh the proposition work at a 10 megawatt wind farm, that opens up a massive opportunity in terms of uh SAF supply in that region, but also it opens up uh a manufacturing ecosystem and a supply chain ecosystem, which is going to drive economic value in the region. So we're excited about it, Oscar, to be honest, and and yeah, we we we see a great opportunity with it.

SPEAKER_00:

So the the the public launch of your technology was a few weeks ago, and presumably that was done just before you're starting to launch sort of equity trying to find an equity investment and trying to go through some a round of of funding. So, you know, what what what was the response that you had from that? And sort of, you know, how how did that go? And you know, what did everyone that didn't go, like like unfortunately myself, miss out from from not attending?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, look, you you had prior development, so you were getting ready for New York Sea where so we'll let you away with it, Oscar. Um but yeah, look, we we had a brilliant launch. Um the response has been phenomenal. We we it was the first reveal of our technology. So we we had our our CTO for Calaghan, uh Dr. Matthew Elliott, you know, reveal the technology with Ralph Lowry, our head of technology application for for Greenflight, and that was positive. And then to even you know, on a more positive manner, we had we had a panel discussion with Ryan Eyre, Shale Aviation Ireland, and uh Vonsee Airports on the panel with myself. So it was great to hear some validation from those representatives that they they see the they they really they're really bought into the disruptive potential of decentralized SAF, you know. So it was just a bit of background for some of your listeners. Fonsea Airports have 72 airports globally, you know. So if they're leaning into the opportunity of decentralized SAF, I think we think that's you know exciting. And obviously, we've announced our off-tech partnership with Ryanair and Shale Aviation Ireland. So that's an interesting tripartite partnership whereby you know we're really leaning into the potential of the experts, you know. So you've got Shale Aviation Ireland who are experts at blending and delivering SAF to the wing, and Ryanair sure, no uh more prominent airline to talk about the the regionality in terms of airports, you know, and uh they mentioned on our panel the the opportunity for by 2034 um every airport in Europe has to have its own SAF supply. You know, you're not able to uh offset with uptake at other airports, so there's a real need for decentralized uh uplift of SAF, and we think that needs a different way of thinking, and we're glad to bring that to the market.

SPEAKER_00:

You must have been really convincing if you had Ryanair and Shell Aviation Island on a panel, and by the end of the day, they're signing an off-take agreement.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, well, they signed it before the panel. Uh but it was it was it was exciting for the audience at the launch to to hear from these experts because you know you've got you know the biggest company on the R Stock Exchange, Ryanair. You've got Shale Aviation Ireland, who are market joint venture with Shale and Circle K, massive entities, but they really know their industry. And and then we had representatives from Belfast International Airport who are owned by Vonsey Group. We had uh representatives from the finance community community, investment community, advisory community, airport owners, people in the in in the aviation sector. So we were really excited about the about the attendees, but also excited about the publicity we got thereafter. So uh we had uh Shoshenk who hosted the event for us, you know, and uh he he's he he's a he's a brilliant moderator, he moderated a panel discussion. So we're we know we can't do this on our own. We know we will have an important role to play, but it's really through collaboration and these partners, partnerships, that we get excited about.

SPEAKER_00:

The Ryanair off take particularly seems interesting because a few years ago, Ryanair they made a statement they're not going to offtake staff unless it comes from an oil an oil major who makes SAF. Um, and that was them a few years ago. And this indicates a very obvious shift in their thinking, their strategy when it comes to SAF, because they're backing a spin-out um startup looking at eSAF, which are two things that seem uh totally different to their to their previous strategy. So I think people are going to be interested by by having them come on board and both, you know, one, what the nature of the agreement's gonna is with you um and two sort of what that sort of shows around the sort of the pivot and the change in thought mentality for or from their side. And I know you're not a Ryanair representative, but I think there's a really interesting shift there.

SPEAKER_02:

I I don't know if it's a shift as an absolute I don't think it's an absolute shift. I think uh from from dealing with the the the team at Ryanair who were very straightforward to deal with, to be honest, I think they have clarity in the strategy, you know. So they want blended SAF to the wing. So that's why they're looking to their partners, Shale Aviation Ireland, and to uh Climate Greenflight, who can supply the need SAF. So I think in that arrangement, that tripartite arrangement, you've got people playing through their strengths.

SPEAKER_00:

One of the um the interesting sort of aspects is obviously Ryan is a low-cost carrier um and Europe's biggest airline. Um and so within that they're very price sensitive around the fuel because their the margins are um are so small. We had um EasyJet on a on a previous episode and they said their profit per seat is something like six six pounds, roughly a profit per C, which you know isn't isn't matters, so they're very price sensitive when it comes to fuel. So I just want to get your thoughts. On the the cost and the pricing of fuel that's produced from a modular uh system versus these huge uh um centralized facilities, which often the argument is the bigger the better. That's the old traditional oil and gas argument that size brings down the um the economic the economies of scale sort of kick in, and then you can reduce costs when you get to that sort of that critical scale. But obviously that isn't quite the same with uh applying it when applying that sort of logic to a modular system.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. No, it's a it's a good question. And while I appreciate you don't want me to get into the costs, what I would say is that you know if we're if we're not competitive in terms of producing advanced BioSAF or ESAF, the conversation doesn't go much further with entities like Shale Aviation or Ryanair. So we have to be competitive, the technoeconomics need to work, but also the the commitment in a modular technology is not for millions of gallons, you know, it's relatively small amounts in terms of annual offtick, and we are excited about the opportunity as we deploy this, the cost curve will drive down as well. So I think it's about backing probably a number of technologies that you think are going to play a part in the future SAFMIX, and that's what the the gays are are leaning into in furnace to them.

SPEAKER_00:

The the sort of the overwhelming view from the industry around off takes is that the gold standard is a a long-term price guarantee off-take, which you know covers the length of you know, if you're seeking debt financing, the cover the the the full um sweep of what the the loan is or the financing is. And obviously, we've touched on uh the reduced amount of um financing you need for FID. So does that mean the nature of the off-take agreements you're looking for can be more flexible because you don't need to use them to attract the debt that other that other producers potentially need them to?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so with within our fundraise, we would see debt coming in at FID. Uh so like any other company looking to you know secure finance for their project, that off-tech, uh that take or pay off tick is really important. And also is it's the term. So look, it's it's price and term and the nature of it. So we are um we're we're still cognizant of that, and you know, our projects going through FID, of course, will depend on that, like other projects. But the difference is it's a small ticket price. You know, that that's the difference here. And if you've got multiple projects in multiple regions, you are spreading uh your your portfolio risk here. So I think that's interesting for people who are investing in modular SAF technology, and we're we're having some exciting conversations with financiers from different, totally different continents uh who are interested and excited about our technology and the prospect of nearly SAF as a service and finance you know, innovative ways of financing this.

SPEAKER_00:

Are you primarily looking at you know the island and Ireland and UK as sort of the immediate markets you're looking to deploy this technology in, and then in the longer term look to where there is other strong renewable renewables productions and sort of tap into those first? What's the sort of geographically what's the sort of the growth strategy and the deployment?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so our initial focus is UK and Ireland. Europe is a key focus for us as well. So the UK and European mandates, you know, are pulling us into those markets, but we're having interesting conversations with US partners, uh, also with uh some interesting discussions with even people who are based in Japan. So in time it will it will move to other regions, but initial focus is UK and Europe. In saying that, um I'm I'm going to Houston in a couple of weeks, you know, for a conference and uh excited about the potential there as well, and meeting in with sort of global players and US players in the staff industry. So um but yeah, look every every conference or every event you're at, you're there's there's a real there's a real opportunity to to collaborate with someone or a number of parties that can it just changes your thinking and you have to be agile in this industry. But yeah, look, it's UK, Europe for now, Oscar is the main main focus.

SPEAKER_00:

The um I the the US one is is interesting because you see the sort of the the headline facilities, the infiniums, the 12s are large scale. I mean, infinium's been in everyone's minds um a lot because of the financing they've done this year, but that's a very large brownfield site that they're going to sort of upcycle almost into a uh an ESAF facility. But that they're very much the facilities over there are trending very much more towards the large scale and the centralized sort of model. So are you sort of aware about you know what other what's happening in other regions around the strategies that other companies are doing? And is that informing where you guys are looking to go, or are you very sort of happy to go uh provided the you know the feedstock and the the renewable energy you know um capacities there, we can very much plug into wherever we we want to?

SPEAKER_02:

If we were following others, we'd be getting into projects that are never going to get built. That's what I would say. Uh and that's not to be in any way derogatory, but it's a fact that of the 42 ESAF projects in Europe, very few, if any, have got to final investment decision yet. And they've been working on those for years. So for us, it's about making it happen, getting stuff done, getting stuff built. Um, if I was to put a link to our launch video, you'll see the the scale and plant of our units in Belfast that we launched a couple of weeks ago. So we're working away under the radar, getting stuff built, and for us it's about speed to getting speed to deployment, is a key thing for us.

SPEAKER_00:

Where your um base is in the dock where Titanic was built, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

It is, it is, yeah. So we're in the Titanic quarter uh in Belfast, Oscar. Yeah, now you're laughing here.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I think everyone knows what my next question's gonna be, so I probably don't even need to ask it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, we're we're in Belfast, which is an engineer in an industrial heartland. Uh we have we're very pleased of the manufacturing capability in in the region, and we have used a really impressive supply chain to help us with our uh progress to date. So there's a great engineering prowess that we've tapped into, and we also feel it can be replicated in various regions, but we're excited about the export potential of this Oscar as well. So uh, but yeah, we're we're founded in Belfast and we're based in Titanic Quarter, and uh yeah, if uh some of your listeners wants to reach out and and come and visit us, we'd be happy to try and accommodate them.

SPEAKER_00:

Pre-production units effectively for the SAF technology. How big are these pre-production units? How big are we talking?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so the the e-fuel unit um is if you were to think about this the e-fuel unit, I'll I'll put the link into the the show notes for you, okay? But the e-fuel unit capacity-wise, we'll do about 200,000 litres a year of NEETSAF, right? So for the next scale up for us in our first of a kind, we're going to put two of these down at half a million litres a year to produce a million litres of NEETSAF. Okay, so uh we have um a biohydrogen technology, which in the first of a kind plant will be producing 50 kilos of hydrogen per hour. So we've got two really key technologies: the biohydrogen, which produces hydrogen and CO2, and we've got the e-fuel generator, which is our electrification deficientrope technology using e-reverse water gas shift. So um, yeah, look, it's it's uh we've been keeping it under wraps, you know, and we've been working on it for the last year, keep trying to keep it under wraps, but it's great now to be able to uh showcase it and uh promote it and uh just tell the community what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00:

Are those are those modules sort of shipping container size or sort of each are they they're smaller than that, bigger than that? What what are we talking?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, Rick, in terms of I don't like the term shipping containers because these look nothing like shipping containers, they're they're absolutely beautiful, right? Okay, so uh they've been they've been designed with uh aesthetics in mind, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's the first SAF facility that's ever been designed with aesthetics in mind.

SPEAKER_02:

This this yeah, this this has been designed with uh the that's uh fitting into the uh the countryside and fitting into uh the the environment in mind. So this is quite picturesque. Uh but the e-field unit is about the size of four 40-foot containers, and the biohydrogen unit is the size of about two 40-foot containers typically. We'll have to bring you over, Oscar, and give you the full tour.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'd I'd I'd need to I need to have a look because I'm very curious about what an aesthetic facility looks like because you look through the normal pictures and I mean I'd I'd think everyone agree they're not necessarily the most aesthetic of things for the most part. So it's nice to that's you know there isn't this being considered.

SPEAKER_02:

This has been designed with aesthetics in mind. So if you think about our business model, we want to co-locate this close to renewable power supply, close to regional airports, or close to available feedstock. So this has to be flexible in terms of where I can decide it, permitted uh almost like a permitted development and get it get to FAD as as quick as possible.

SPEAKER_00:

Is there uh you mentioned that you can put it near feedstock, near renewable or near airports? Is there a preference? Which one of those three is sort of the ideal? Obviously, if you put all three right next to each other, you probably pick that one. But you know, if you you know you had to prioritize one over the other, where where how does that thinking go?

SPEAKER_02:

I think co-locating it close to renewable uh electricity assets, you know, is is I think it makes for a good set of economics. Uh we've some very interesting developments on uh feedstock as well, which could make uh sense, but it it'll be it'll be project specific, it'll be regional specific, but uh co-locating it at a wind farm or hydro plant uh would be would be interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

And you modelled the the difference in terms of the technoeconomics of one versus near feedstock, near the renewables, near airports. Is that something that you sort of consider and is there sort of a negligible difference between the two, or is there sort of a decent enough difference to sort of actually become a very sort of important decision that you've got to make?

SPEAKER_02:

We're so we've I suppose we've validated our our first feedstock of pilot demonstration and we tend to do it in first of a kind, but we're we're we're planning ahead with sort of feedstock number two and three, and yeah, I think what we have here is optionality. I say that's the key thing about this decentralized technology is that you know we can uh adapt the project specific conditions and see what's optimal for uh the deployment here. So so yeah, look, it's it gives it gives developers, it gives um you know people who require that staff and have the demand for that staff, it gives them optionality. So we're uh we're over in Scotland in a couple of weeks looking at you know a couple of options in in in that region as well. So uh yeah, look, it's we've I I would say the key thing here is we can optimize the economics, you know, depending on the region and depending on the local feedstock.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think there are going to be a lot more others sort of following the modular the modular system? Do you think there's there's going to be a big growth in this in the industry in terms of production? Because you know, you guys are sort of looking onto it and trying to sort of hit the ground running with it and be sort of leaders in this space. But presumably you're not the only people that have that will have seen the opportunity and how this lends and if they've got the technology that lends itself to it. Do you see this as sort of a big opportunity in terms of the the shift for for getting ESAF um produced in time for mandates and for the inevitable scale up in the mid 2030s? So there could be a huge growth in this style of of SAF projects coming down the pipe.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think I think the refineries of the future are going to be different than what they are, you know, what they have been in the past. Um the conventional way of thinking, I think it's starting to shift, starting to shift. So if you're going to tap into the availability uh of natural resources, we're going to have to do things differently. So I think the decentralized and modular tech will have a big role to play, and it it won't just be ourselves in that way of thinking. Some of the leading advisory experts are also committing to that as well. So yeah, look, it's it's uh it's and there's no silver bullet here, I would say. You know, in some cases, in some jurisdictions, a centralized plant may well work, okay. But if you look at you know legislation, perhaps driving anti-tankering, you know, I don't see a future of tankering in half a staff from Texas into the UK is gonna be a part of the fuel mix in 20 years. I don't I don't see it happening, Oscar. So we're gonna have to do things differently, and I think a lot of the market recognises that.

SPEAKER_00:

Amazing. Mel, thanks so much for for your time in explaining everything going on at Catagan. Uh, we'll put the link you referred to in the in the description, and we'd be very happy if anyone wants to reach out to um to help connect to connect you if they're they're interested, um, especially as you're coming up to um equity raising, because there is such an interesting opportunity at Catagin with the the green flight. So um thanks so much for explaining it to everyone and giving everyone a better understanding.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks, Oscar. Thanks for having me. And uh Hector,