The SAF Podcast
Welcome to The SAF Podcast, the only podcast on the internet that exclusively covers sustainable aviation fuel (SAF). So if you want to find out the real issues and challenges are for commercialising and scaling SAF production, look no further.
Every week we will be hearing from senior industry leaders who are actively shaping the future of SAF and aviation.
Hosted by Oscar Henderson and brought to you by the team at SAF Investor. Connect with us at www.safinvestor.com
The SAF Podcast
BookBetter - Bringing SAF to the forefront of travel booking
We kick off 2026 on the podcast with a great conversation with Nicolas Guillaume and Louis Lammertyn from BookBetter.
The platform integrates sustainability costs directly into flight pricing, offering travelers 100% SAF options and alternative transport modes like trains when more sustainable. Unlike traditional airline booking systems that add SAF as an optional extra at checkout, BookBetter prioritizes transparency from the first search, using third-party registries to verify environmental claims and provide customers with detailed certificates.
The discussion delves into critical industry issues including the psychological barriers of SAF pricing, the importance of additionality in carbon reduction claims, and why current booking platforms inadvertently penalise airlines making sustainability efforts.
Wishing everyone a great 2026 in what is set to be another crucial year for SAF market development.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Staff Podcast. And this week, I'm delighted to be joined by Luis Lamertin and Nicholas Guillaume from Book Better. And we're going to be talking about integrated booking systems, making staff easily accessible for travelers and their new system that they are developing and rolling out. But they are much better placed to explain it. So, Luis, Nicholas, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_01:Indeed, thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_03:Good to be here. Absolute pleasure. So before we get into Book Better and the platform, do you guys want to give everyone a sense of your background and how you guys ended up coming together and Book Better starting? So, Luis, should we start with you first and then we'll come to you, Nicholas?
SPEAKER_00:Cool. Yeah. So I started my career after studying commercial engineering. I worked at Roland Berge, so strategy consultancy, and I did quite a bit of restructuring of airlines. So that was my first uh my first link with the aviation industry. Uh after five years, I really wanted to get into sustainability topics, and I joined a company called Inisio, uh, again, strategy consultancy, but specialized in green hydrogen. And there I started working more and more on the stuff uh first from the synthetic angle and then and then all types of stuff. Uh so helping the developers get closer to FID, easily said, navigating in uh regulation business cases uh and and the technologies. Voila. Um yeah, and I did a little side jump at some point uh a couple of years ago, uh co-launching Moonlight Express. It's a uh night train operator that is now integrated in European sleeper. So uh the night trains from Brussels to Berlin and Prague. Um also one of uh the babies close to my heart.
SPEAKER_03:It's a great name. Nope. You've got a you should you should claim that as a great name. Thanks, thanks, Nicholas. Um yeah, Nicholas, what about you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so after aerospace uh engineering in in Delft, I went into strategic consulting and aviation as well at Seabury Consulting later Accenture. Um I did many business cases all over the world, flew around the world for that job, and then started to realize there's going quite a bit of fuel in an aircraft to go from one side of the world to the other side of the world. Uh, and then started to realize a bit this can this can be done better because also fun to improve that. I think it's a super nice challenge. So uh I accepted the challenge and thought okay, I have to do this better. Um, then went to Nesta in the sustainable aviation team uh at the producer uh side, obviously. And there I realized we can on the production side we can do a lot, but the biggest challenge is how do we get it to the consumers? How do we get people engaged? How do we get people to pay more for a better solution? Um, and I think that's where a very big challenge lies in industry at this moment, and I want to tackle the challenge, so that's why we uh started Book Better.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome, and how did you two meet?
SPEAKER_00:That's uh a bit of a fun story.
SPEAKER_03:Um we love meet cute stories.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a love story, it's a lovely love story. Um when I was working still on the night trains, I kind of felt pretty uncomfortable with the aviation industry until at some point um I realized how naive I was that uh the climate uh issues in aviation would solve themselves, um, or that aviation would ever disappear. And that's kind of the turning point where um it was clear that something uh needs to be done in the industry and I'd rather be part of the solution than just be a hater uh standing on the sideline. So studied a couple of business cases, one of them being uh the the the new Zeppelins of Airlander 10 uh trying to figure out a business case there. Then after that tried to um launch a niche airline that would embrace the surplus costs of uh high percentages of stuff. And when trying to fundraise, and we couldn't find the lead investor. That's uh more or less where uh we came up with the uh most scalable um and digital platform to measure who would be the customers that are willing to voluntarily pay more uh for a really good uh aviation solution today, and on which routes, and that's where you end up with an online travel agency. Um in the preparation phase uh when I was still working on the airline ID, I uh needed SUFT, so I contacted Neste, and that's the point where someone told me maybe we should have a chat on the side as well. And that's where we met uh each other.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing, amazing, and you kind of touched on it there, but do you want to go into a bit more detail about Book Better, what that what that platform does, what it's sort of aiming to achieve, and who it's really targeting?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so uh with Book Better if you want to travel from A to B. Um we look we we make it as easy as possible to go from A to B in the most sustainable way. Um, so you can just like any other online travel agency like uh booking.com or Expedia, you can put in okay, I want to fly to uh New York, and we directly make sure you get the most sustainable option in combination with price. So that means in the price we include directly the cost of sustainability. In this case, we tap it up to 100% of stuff, um, and now we start to look at the impact of contrails, uh so the new effects as well. All this because we see that many consumers are not very familiar with stuff, they're not very familiar with contrails, it's a far off their best show, uh let's say, and we want to make it as easy as possible by providing everything in a price directly. So in in one click, you can make the the fairest comparison between the different travel options in terms of price and sustainability.
SPEAKER_00:And and maybe if I may add one one small thing there, if you search for a flight from Brussels to London, we'll still put you on a train. So that's also kind of we we uh you search for a flight, but but if if it's feasible by train, then then we do propose the alternative.
SPEAKER_03:You you just preempted my follow-up, which is gonna be is it just solely aviation or are other modes of transport involved in the platform?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. So we start with aviation, and the reason is typically when you travel um to a destination far away uh by plane, 80 uh 80, 70, 80 percent from your emissions come from the aviations, from traveling there, right? So then still you have your hotel, your taxi, or your your train um from the airport to your final uh destination, but that is typically quite a small percentage of your total trip footprint. So we're we want to take all the highest piece of your footprint of your trip, and that's why we start with the aviation, because we we believe we can make the highest impact there.
SPEAKER_03:Why are platforms like yours so important for growing SAF adoption? And why do you think it's sort of struggling and the development of platforms like this are actually going to be a almost unlock help with the flywheel effect of scaling the at the scale that people are actually flying on SAF?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so that I believe the demand questions is very important. As I said in the beginning, uh as well, we can do a lot on the technology technology side, right? We can develop new feedstocks um such as ESOF, which is going to be more expensive than the Hafasoft we have today. Um so everything will become more expensive than the fossil fuel we're using currently. If if we want to push that surplus cost our customers, we have to start now. In the future, I don't believe you can still fly for 30 euros across Europe. That cannot be possible. So we should make customers aware of their footprint of flying and be able to pay more. Only when we are able to pay a little bit more for each flight, everyone, uh, we can scale these new technologies such as ESOF, in the future, also electric flying, hydrogen flying, all those new technologies. But we need to fund that.
SPEAKER_00:Luis? Yeah, and and and and one thing we also see is that there is currently products being offered by airlines as well to include stuff. Uh we see that the niche of customers that is really willing to pay more for stuff also expects a very transparent product. Um so we've seen uh recently articles from the European Commission uh uh reaching out to 21 airlines on how they communicate about sustainability and about sustainable aviation fuel. That's where we're really um trying to be the front runner in uh transparent communication, uh very complete uh education as well. If you click the word stuff with us, you will get uh an explanation on what's behind it.
SPEAKER_03:That's that's really interesting that you see this is something that the airlines have started doing but are not necessarily doing as well as they can, particularly on the the transparency aspect of this. And this is where you're really differentiating yourself from booking just the sustainable staff through an airline booking platform on their website. That's actually the difference, is the transparency angle of it. Because the for corporates that's really important.
SPEAKER_01:But also at the moment of booking, which is very important, because if you fly from, let's say, London to Lisbon, um, you might be offered an indirect flight, a cheaper indirect flight from London via Madrid to Lisbon. So you you can book that. However, if you directly put into account the price of sustainability, your flight from London to Lisbon directly might be actually cheaper if you directly take into account the cost of sustainability. So if you do if you go through the whole booking process and then in the end do the checkbox for sustainable aviation fuels, like many airlines offer, you don't have a fair comparison anymore between the airlines uh with what they offer. So you can really optimize your route based on price and sustainability uh using uh the platform. And what Luis was saying as well, the transparency is not always there. So when I flew in the past years, uh quite often I use the SAF program of the airline just to try it out, what they offer, and often uh you get some uh experience point of or some miles, but you don't get the certificates with the emission reductions you you you you you pay for. Uh you don't know if if the SAF is used for their refuel AU mandate or is it on top of what they do with refuel AU? So is it additional, yes or no? It's very unclear and very intransparent. Um, and I think also many people lack the trust in the airlines by the way they provide it. So um I think they want to see also a brand, a name that provides full transparency and they they can trust where they book uh their ticket regarding uh sustainability. So that's what we want to uh to provide.
SPEAKER_03:So, how are you managing that transparency aspect? What mechanisms are you using to ensure there is top level sustainability eligibility across the service that you you're offering?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so it starts with communication from the beginning, right? We always really communicate. This is a least less polluting flight using uh the the SUF. We be very clear the SUF might not be ending up in your airplane, but we use book and claim. Um, so it starts all with communic communication up front. We do the best we can, uh, but also uh when you buy the SAF, that you get a certificate as an individual customer. Um, for that we use third-party uh registries. I believe it's very, very important that also airlines start to use third-party registries. They are out there, they're they're available. Um, and so that your consumers can check actually, okay, this batch or this payment I thought relates to this batch, this batch has been uplifted at this airport, these are the feedstock characteristics. Uh, there's no impact on land use change, there's no impact on food production using this type of feedstock. And and I believe 99.9% of the people will not look into that, but you need it for the trust, right? So if this 0.1% of the people start to look at it, that you can really show okay, we did the best efforts we can do to make it the most sustainable or the most sustainable booking as possible. Um, and and this is all the documentation we can provide on that. So it's it starts all with the communication up front, but also after their flight to provide them with the right documentation.
SPEAKER_00:And and easily said, um, so we really want to make it as easy as possible. So if you don't want to know, you can kind of just trust and go very fast through a booking flow. But whatever is mentioned, like SAF, contrail avoidance, and so on, if you click on it, you get to the impact page, it's all explained, you know exactly what you're gonna get, you know exactly how it works, uh, what's what science is behind it, etc. Um, so that's that's super important. And the additional additionality aspect, um, maybe maybe some of the listeners might not be very uh aware of what it actually means, but if we ask someone to pay more to fly on on SAF, or at least accounting for SAF, then these people expect that there is literally less fossil CO2 going into the air. Now, if it is not additional, if this is just used to um easily said, subsidize the airline to comply with regulation and to buy to pay for stuff that they needed to buy anyways, then I fear that this is not really what the end customer is expecting, right? Um you could you could do it with corporates if if the corporates are fully aware of what they're paying for uh in the scope tree. But if you're doing it with consumers, smaller businesses that are not aware, then yes, if you pay more online for an economy green, then then you do expect that at least there's a couple of grams or kilograms of CO2, uh fossil CO2, that will be emitted less by you paying, and that you're not just subsidizing other passengers for not paying for what is anyways obliged by the regulation.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you do touched on a couple of things. The the EU mandate that currently requires, or the UK mandate as well that requires airlines or not airlines, fuelers to provide 2% fuel. It's a common misconception. Um 2% currently is the mandate that um scales up over time, and also the decoupling of physical fuel from their environmental attributes through book and claim, allowing corporates to buy scope three certificates for fuel that they are um after their purchasing, but not necessarily be immediately flying on just for anyone, any new listeners that aren't necessarily aware. But these are really complicated challenges. And the pile of paper for transparency and ensuring the traceability of everything can be huge. Like if it was physical paper, it's piles and piles and folders and folders of paper just for one bit of fuel. So managing that is no no easy task.
SPEAKER_01:All the individual customers they can they are not experienced, they don't know the softworld, right? And even I myself, I'm in the soft world for quite some some years now. Even for me, sometimes it's very difficult to see what is additional, what is not what is not additional, what has been provided when, what's the vintage, and it's not always clear. Um, so we want to take all that burden away and say, okay, if you if you book with us, you can trust us. Uh if you want to go into detail, it is there, but you can trust us that it will be it will be good or the best we can.
SPEAKER_03:Is that one of the big barriers that you see? The complexity of SAF is putting people potentially people that would fly on SAF, be interested in getting involved in SAF, putting them off, or are the really committed people to flying sustainably working their way through that complexity to do it anyway?
SPEAKER_01:Uh there, yeah, yeah. For for me, there's there's definitely a little bit of complexity there. Uh, what we see as well is uh the different kinds of feedstocks that has been used. Um, I think Transport Environment did recently some uh research on that as well. So we want to be very transparent at that and only use the high-quality certified feedstocks only. Well, we see that some of the people that are very critical on how you um use sustainability and fly that is sometimes those articles uh put them on a wait for for using uh SOF. Um, do I always agree? No, because that waiting for me is not an option. I think we should move and doing something is better than waiting to the perfect solution is out there. But yes, there are there are challenging challenges with SAF. But I think the same is like with electric vehicles, with the battery production. There are challenges as well. But um we should start moving and to overcome uh those challenges.
SPEAKER_00:And maybe one one one thing that we've seen. So in the past, we've done some research in the preparatory phase with the Technical University of Delft, and uh um there is what we see is that there's a negative sense of utility of lower percentages of stuff offered in an offering of an airline. Uh so let's say that if you offer 20% stuff, um if you're really targeting like uh the dark green consumers or uh small businesses, freelancers, people that are active in the climate space, um, it feels a little bit like saying it's a 20% organic stake and the other 80% something else. Like it doesn't feel good. What we saw is that that you need to get at least 80% stuff before there starts to be a positive uh sense of utility of putting stuff in a flight. So that's one of the things where we we know it's like the absolute cost that that comes with it, uh, it's significant. Um so you need to do everything you can from the very first second that you interact with these customers to the last to make it still as easy as possible. And it cannot be a psychological torture. If you if you start showing a flight at 200 euros and then at the end you ask, hey, um, would you like to uh happily add another 18 euros or 100 euros for for 100% stuff? Then of course, like the brain can't process it. It's a no for sure. Well, if you do it from the very first second, that's that's really where we believe there's an an added value. In uh in making it easier and and more digestible.
SPEAKER_03:Do you think airlines should be approaching it in this way? Because you you as you lay it out there, you go putting staff at the end, it almost seems like sort of it's like the end of a flight where they come through with charitable donation bags and it's sort of something at the end of the flight that's sort of added on if you've got any sort of spare change going around. Whereas actually it needs to be thought of earlier on in the process. So and and the psychology of not doing it earlier, obviously, airlines have got they're in the a race to the bottom with it when it comes to price and it's highly competitive. But that sort of narrative potentially needs to be changed in order for SAF to actually become a critical cornerstone of booking any flight as opposed to an optional extra at the end.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and this is something they're gonna face not only now with SAF. They're gonna face it again if uh in 10 years, 15 years other technologies start to be there, uh, maybe at the point where uh contrail avoidance start to be a thing as well. Um everything that comes with a surplus cost, of course, goes completely against the uh the current models of um price being the only criteria to select a flight. But that's really where we want to be kind of the player that rewards also airlines for making extra efforts. Um newer fleets will automatically end up higher in our in our rankings. Um if you have more absolute stuff on board, it will make you end up higher as well. But also, if in the future you would have uh battery uh electric aviation or hydrogen uh aviation, like it's it you can't play the game on skyscanner uh for for uh the best price. Like it's very difficult. So that's where we really want to start creating this new market for a specific group of uh uh consumers or businesses that that uh that search specifically for this. And so, yes, I I I truly believe that airlines can still take major steps in in improving their products when it comes to uh to stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um I just want to say um though you should donate to airlines when they they bring the charity bags over. I'm not I'm not dissing the fact that they're bringing charity bags over whatsoever. I just want to make that quite plain before anyone gets the wrong impression.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but maybe I want to really emphasize what what Luis said. At this moment, as an airline, when you become are you doing best efforts to become more sustainable? You can uh option you can have the options for a newer fleet, right? So that will uh save maybe a little bit of fuel cost, but all the other extra components will cost you extra money typically to become more sustainable, uh, meaning that in all the Google Flight sky scanners you will become down, pushed down by by those search engines. Um, so it's really disincentivizing airlines to become more sustainable. So we want to turn it around, and the better the efforts you're doing, the more sustainability you're doing, the higher you get up in the ranking. So we really try to help the airlines that are doing good to get better business as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, I I I would say that not all platforms, like if you get a flight on Google, Google Flights, for example, they do actually list the emissions on there. So it there is an element of transparency at the beginning. So a very conscious buyer can make that decision at the beginning. But you we're probably talking about booking directly through airlines where it's a little more hidden and comes up at the end currently.
SPEAKER_00:Why not make it mandatory? Make it mandatory that it's filtered on grams of CO2 from the beginning, and you can change it manually to price.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But you need to click to change it to order by price.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's why you're here. You're the ones to make it mandatory.
SPEAKER_00:True, but but I do think like everything we're doing, to be very clear and transparent, everything we're doing is to get the whole industry along. Um, and and and that's also part of our business model, is not just to uh to sell flights. Like if we become obsolete, it would be lovely. Um, because then we can just help, we can help uh airlines, we can help the travel industry, existing online travel agents to kind of define better products and and uh and take them along as well.
SPEAKER_03:Do you see your role purely as helping the demand side, or do you see yourself helping on the supply side? Because obviously most of the current producers have this HVO versus staff, which one's more profitable, where are flight prices going? Is there demand to produce staff versus HVO? So do you sort of see yourself helping producers make a decision towards staff, or do you see yourself in sort of facilitating that at all? Are you very much working with airlines and end customers to help them choose to book staff and what happens further up the supply chain sort of happens organically because of what you're doing with the customers?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I believe it goes hand in hand. So our focus with book better right now is mostly on demand side, but the demand side really influences this supply side, right? So the more uh I mean, already in our platform we put uh some choices um that people can make in the future, having e-sof there as well, alcohol to jet for now. We have only half a soft. Uh, but if we can generate that demand for eSoff for Alco to Jet stuff as well, we can get the demand signal to the to the producers so they can start producing more of that. Um, and also they can then show to their investors, hey guys, there is demand for these products, and if there's demand for these products, sustained demand, um, the easier it is for them to get investments on board and to scale those technologies.
SPEAKER_03:Are you gonna sort of have a system where you can choose to fly on Heffer SAF, Alcoholics Jet SAF, ESAF? Is it gonna be that sort of nuanced in you know the actual type of SAF do you want to fly on?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. Um and and I mean it comes with different prices, but the idea is that um a fun little niche that we also want to want to uh open up, it's actually the stakeholders of a of current SAF uh developers or SAF producers, where for example the first small quantities of eSuff that a plant is producing, that you can actually allow your employees, uh your investors, uh your partners to start flying on your stuff specifically. Like every flight you book, you're boosting your um producer to um to get more stuff uh in the market.
SPEAKER_03:So that's that's awesome. That's what I that's such a smart idea to try and accelerate that sort of the demand side for the producer and actually going and being that hands-on with those earlier stage facilities when they're sort of in demo pilot plant stages where they are producing fuel but not at a commercial stage yet because it finds utility for them and investors can benefit from it as well. That's super smart. Who are your sort of key target markets? Who are you looking at going, these are the guys, this platform's for you, and you should really look at utilizing it, using it, booking your travel through it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we we have a couple of uh market entry segments, but what we definitely um work at is like making that sounds like uh consultant talk. Yeah, yeah. Let me let me let me give you the details. No, but the overall the the point I want to make here is that there's markets where we want to start, but there's definitely more markets where we want to end up bit by bit while it gets adopted. But the very niche start markets, international events. So typically 90% of the carbon footprint of an international event is linked to all of the participants and speakers that are uh flying in um just to meet each other. So there it's super easy to just um, like you say, these are the hotel uh the hotels that we have a deal with, and please book your trip via this platform because it's gonna actually uh reduce the overall uh event carbon footprint. So there the idea is that that the event organizer uh by the day of the event gets a full report and sees that we just reduce 200, 300 tons. And it doesn't matter that not everyone is gonna choose this option. Um if there's just a little bit of a conversion on uh the people that get this solution in front of them, that's already a big win and it doesn't cost anything additional for the event organizing. That's the first niche. Um, second niche is uh professional services companies. So typically consultancies, uh lawyers, you name it, that are active in uh climate, renewable energy, and so on, that are um preaching that we should do all kinds of things and at the same time still have to take a lot of flights for their work. Um today there's there's very little credible uh solutions for them, and so uh that's that's where we want to be a solution as well. But um, of course, we're open for individuals uh that have to take this one flight a year to visit their family or whatever, a wedding or uh or or uh um anything, and and then um typically it's people that try to reduce the number of flights they take. But if they do have to take a flight, they're more than willing to spend hundreds of additional Euros Um to also bring a story on because it's not it's like one part of it is of course the carbon emissions um that you that you um that you avoid. Um the other part is that it's as as a professional service company, you go to a client and you say, Yes, yes, I did fly here, but but look, we're really um making change in the aviation industry uh by by uh accounting for the stuff. And then we mentioned before stuff producers, for example, could be a niche as well. Um definitely also the the travel um the tour operators, um package holidays on the higher end segments to nature destinations. Uh, if you go to Iceland, if you go to Norway, um typical destinations where the visitors are more open and willing to um to uh to do something that is in line with their values. You need to you need to find the right niche where uh there is a voluntary willingness to pay.
SPEAKER_01:And Oscar, Luis and myself, we both have a consulting background. And what I learned there as well, it's quite easy if you do consulting assignments, and typically they're they're quite expensive, and you have to travel for that consulting assignment, you can put the soft cost easily in your travel expenses and in uh between the hotel bill, flight bill, uh, you can add the soft bill. Um, I've been doing it for for many times, and none of the clients has ever complained about it. Actually, most of them support it even to do it, right? Because uh you're you're doing actually giving business uh or grow the business that they you're working in. So you know I think uh advice of people to do that.
SPEAKER_03:You know what that prompts that just makes me want to ask what else you've been sneaky into customers customers' bills beyond SAP.
SPEAKER_01:Always put it in a contract, always in a contract. Uh exactly.
SPEAKER_00:So so all the listeners, if there's one action you take away from this podcast, in any contract that you send out and in the template, you write this little sentence all travel costs will be re-invoiced, including the surplus cost of 100% stuff.
SPEAKER_02:As simple as that.
SPEAKER_00:You you add it if people negotiate it out, fine. If they don't negotiate it out, you just re-invoice it and it doesn't increase your cost, and you're you're contributing to building it up.
SPEAKER_03:So awesome, awesome. You mentioned events companies. I will say to people, I'm gonna do a slight plug now. We are does we are in active discussions with Luis and Nicholas about implementing the Book Better platform for our Staff Investor London conference in at the end of February on the 24th, 25th of February. So watch this space and there'll hopefully be some news about that soon. So um, if anyone wants to travel internationally to come to that conference, one, I recommend it because it's awesome. And two, you can do it hopefully you can do it sustainably through um Book Better. So keep an eye out for uh for that. Um Jance, before we go, I'm gonna ask one final question. You've mentioned across we've mentioned across this conversation numerous different stakeholders that you've you've been engaged with, you've and they cover the broad spectrum of those involved in staff. Who are the sort of the single most important entities that you uh want to need to engage with that think will really tangibly develop and grow, not just book better, but the way of thinking around putting Saff primarily at the front of people's mind and sustainability when they're they're booking flights.
SPEAKER_00:I mean the stakeholders that we're engaging with uh on a permanent basis, uh for sure it is staff producers, right? Um that's where the product needs to come from. Um companies like uh Alanzajet or or or other uh new new uh self developers out there. Um we definitely uh think it should not stay with stuff alone. So that's why we mentioned like we we uh look at the contrail avoidance, we look at uh all kinds of things. So in the contrail avoidance, uh companies like STR uh are definitely uh critical to have on board. Um but Google Tim model, for example, the these are parties that are important to stay close to. Um and and then the different uh event organizers. So we're currently setting up a pilot with the textiles recycling expo, uh, but we we're we're doing this with with many others uh that we're in discussion with, uh, but that that uh don't want to be mentioned yet. Um and and and important is also the some some major airlines uh that we're talking to and airports. Um a couple of them uh of course uh kind of uh well around around our operation bases uh in Belgium and the Netherlands, where we believe there's there's a very nice uh opportunity to make uh to set up an ecosystem that really um that really works from a tangible point of view, the volumes of stuff, but also from a uh a story and and a recognizable story point of view for the for the passengers, um yeah, so that you can work with with uplifting stuff in an airport with a local airline for the scope one um and really kind of uh building it up together as a as one ecosystem. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Nicholas, any last thoughts from you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think a very important organization as well is uh Travelist. They worked on the Google Tim model and have a big influence in getting the calculations for all the flights the same across the industry. Uh, I think they did an excellent job on that front. Um, and would love to see how we can also start using uh methodologies to reduce the emissions, right? So uh like we're doing. Uh so hopefully they we can help them, or perhaps uh we we can be as an example how the industry uh can mitigate emissions.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Luis, Nicholas, thanks so much for joining us. That that was awesome. That was a fascinating conversation, and wishing you all the best of Book Better as it continues its its rollout and takeover.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, thanks.