Maria Whittaker, Abra Group: The quest for SAF in Latin America

In this episode of The SAF Podcast, host Oscar is joined by Maria Whittaker, Corporate Responsibility Officer at Abra Group — the airline group behind Avianca and GOL, serving nearly 70 million passengers across Latin America.

Maria unpacks the unique challenges and opportunities of scaling sustainable aviation fuel in a region where aviation provides essential connectivity, fuel costs represent up to 40% of operational expenses, and SAF production is still in its earliest stages.

We cover:

🌎 Why Latin America is at a different stage of SAF development than Europe or the US

📋 Brazil's incoming SAF mandate (starting at 1% in 2027, rising to 10% by 2037) 

🤝 Abra's groundbreaking Article 6 collaboration with Sumitomo Corporation to create a book-and-claim SAF export mechanism between Brazil and Japan

💰 The capital and off-take challenges facing SAF producers in the region 

✈️ How Avianca was ranked #1 globally for reducing emissions intensity while growing 

🔮 Maria's vision for the Latin American SAF market by 2030

Whether you're an investor, policymaker, airline professional or SAF producer, this episode offers a compelling window into one of the most dynamic and underexplored SAF markets in the world.

🎧 Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hello and welcome to yet another episode of the SAF podcast. And this week I'm really excited to be joined by Maria Whitaker from Abra Group. And we recently did a deep dive in North America. And this episode, we're going to do a deep dive in Latin America from an airline perspective. It's an area we've we've covered before from the sort of more technology production side, but very excited to be looking at this from another side of the multi-sided coin that is sustainable aviation fuel. So, Maria, thanks so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Thank you, Oscar. It's a pleasure to be here. And I look forward to sharing what I can about the opportunities and challenges of SAF in Latin America.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Awesome. So before we get going, do you want to give everyone a sense of your background? Because you've been at Abra for around a year now, roughly.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yes, exactly. Yeah, I've been here for a year. I'm uh well, I'm from Argentina, uh, but I'm based in London. I've lived here for more than 20 years and have my family here, four children, and um, and I have done many different things, all of which seem to be very useful in my current role. I started my career in finance in Wall Street, advising Latin American banks, and then I moved on to financial data from London and worked within the financial uh capital markets and financial data. And then I um most recently I also set up a startup on soil carbon. So I I know a little bit about land and carbon, and we're operating in Australia, Canada, and the US and the UK, so I um understand a little bit about the challenges of uh agriculture too. And I joined 12 months ago, and it's been a very exciting journey. We are building a very innovative, the most innovative uh sort of airline group in the region. Um we my role is new. There was a lot of sort of setting up governance roles and getting the team together, and we've acquiring some great talent and bringing people from outside the airline industry to sort of work with them. So um yeah, it's been fun, interesting, there's a lot to do, and but we've done quite a lot already.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

What airlines are in Abra Abra Group? Because lots of people that aren't necessarily that deep into the Latin American airline market might not necessarily be aware of the airlines that you're directly involved with.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, so um the Abra Group started off with uh Abianca. Abianca is the largest airline in Colombia, and we are the leaders operating in Central America and Ecuador and throughout Latin America, and Gol. Gaul is the second largest in Brazil, and we operate uh in over 25 countries. We transport nearly we just last year we transported nearly 70 million passengers. Uh, we have a fleet of around 300 aircraft and go to over 130 destinations and uh throughout Latin America we connect what is a very vast continent and very diverse continent, and uh we fly to the to the US and the Americans as well as Europe. We also have a strategic investment in Wamos. WAMOS is a wet least company uh based in the in Europe.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Um for Abra, just explain to everyone how you are approaching sustainable aviation fuel. Where are your priorities? What's your strategy in terms of incorporating it into your operations or building out capacity for fuel availability for you for you guys to use? What's the overall overarching strategy there?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

So, um in terms of the our sustain overall sustainability strategy, we are um developing the strategies that are in accordance with the reality of the region we operate in, right? That's that's the first priority. In Latin America, uh, for every flight Latin American does, in North America would do six, right? So the penetration of aviation is limited, but we provide essential connectivity with in the region. We don't have the land infrastructure to connect cities and sort of vast territories. So we have sort of slightly different challenges than airlines in other continents. Um so uh with that said, we have been as a group focusing primarily on fleet and fleet renewals, and we have the largest order book in the in the region. New aircraft can reduce emissions by sort of 15 or 25% in some cases. So um with that, we've been recently recognized by Cyrium. Abianca has been recently recognized by Cerium as the airline that has was number one in the world in terms of reducing emissions intensity whilst growing. So we reduced emissions intensity by nearly 20% since 2019. That's an extraordinary number whilst growing at sort of 19-20%. So those are achievements we're extremely proud of, and we know we can continue along that path given the our fleet and reconfiguration to aircraft and sort of the our focus on operational efficiencies. Um, we are also working in the region with all the authorities and governments and infrastructure because there is a lot of work we can do in terms of operational efficiencies to reduce emissions today while we develop the SAF market, right? And every emission we reduce today is sort of incredibly valuable. So we are working intensely there. In terms of SAF, um the region is uh it's on a different stage of SAF than Europe or the US, right? It's sort of more incipient. Um so our role as airlines is sort of largely involves working and engaging with all of the stakeholders in the ecosystem to make sure that the policies that we develop are support a connectivity in the region and that address the opportunities for the region to export SAF, but also protect the con the essential connectivity that airlines provide. So, with that, we are extremely proactive in all of the industry groups in Brazil, in Colombia, and Chile, and sort of all the countries. We are um, but we are also taking a leadership position in terms of providing innovative solutions and solutions to what, right? Um the Latin America region has amazing feedstocks, not only agriculture-based feedstocks, but they renewables. So there's huge opportunities for ESAFs to, there's opportunities in alcohol to jet, there's opportunities in HEFA, but what we are finding is that um we need to focus on how we're going to address the price gap. Because all of those projects are not reaching FID, they're not getting the off-take agreements because the economics are challenging, right? The cost of fuel for our airlines in Brazil says 40% of operational costs. Um and with a demand that is quite elastic, it's difficult to sort of we can't pass on too much volume of SAF to the customer. So we are focusing on those solutions. So at Abra, we I'm very proud we presented a COP, an extremely innovative solution under Article 6, together with Sumitomo Corporacio do Brazil, where um the idea is that uh developed countries that need SAF and that need large volumes of SAF because they have vast uh domestic airline businesses, um, markets, sorry, they um they would partner with countries like Brazil that can that have more ability to produce SAF and smaller, relatively smaller airline sectors, and basically subsidize the green premium for the domestic airlines in Brazil through Article 6 and very clean using SAF certificates where you're not transporting SAF because it doesn't make a lot of sense to transport SAF across the world. It adds cost and emissions. So we are really working on things like that type of book and claim system that's extremely innovative, but we're also progressing discussions on revenue certainty mechanisms where, for example, a multilateral coalition would subsidize the cost so that airlines and passengers, domestic passengers in Latin America can continue flying, but also the producers are able to get the funding and the offtakes that they need to be able to grow, which is a bit of a very exciting sort of industry, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Does the demand elasticity the 40% operational cost of fuel is it's high for all airlines, but it is slightly higher than it is in in other regions. We've had other conversations on here where it's around 20, 30 within that range. So 40 is slightly higher. So those do those two problems limit your ability to be proactive as you want to be in terms of developing staff?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Well, we are proactive. There are no staff producing plans today in Brazil or in other countries, right? So we are as proactive as uh we can possibly be considering the state, the the very incipient state of the industry. Um and there they there isn't even regulation in most countries. So uh the work now is to make sure that the policy and and the infrastructure are set so that stuff can be produced, right? So we are we're a few steps behind other regions. Yeah. Um the the combination of the um the uniqueness of the jet fuel pricing of the region due to sort of higher taxes and the pricing structures of some countries and the regulated infrastructure there, and and a lot of the inefficiencies of distribution that is sort of that's also adds to the cost, um, is something that is unique to us. And I know other developing countries have the same issue, um, but um we we we have to operate within those those constraints, and and we so what we're focusing on is to get the right policy and also make sure that we're producing the right SAF, that we're producing SAF for export of high quality without unintended consequences on biodiversity and water, and that we want the SAF producers to be extremely successful because then they achieve scale, and then we all have a better market, right? So to do that, we need to think collaboratively and out of the box and make sure that we are sort of bringing a large export market and and connecting the dots. We have a big role to play. That is not just the optics, it's really the ensuring that the policies and that we are acting in domestically to progress that, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah. Who who are the major sort of the players who are developing on the production side who are working to develop SAF in Latin America in South America? Could you just throw out sort of a couple of names just so people who maybe don't know can know?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I think pretty much everyone is trying, is having conversations. There's a lot of noise, so it's it's a lot of the time, it's very hard to know um the the state of the projects. Um there are no projects that have passed FID yet, or there's sort of there's very limited amounts. There's there is a lot of traction. Pretty much everyone, all the usual names are either looking at the region or in the region or have some MOU in the region, but um it's all very early stage. Um it's it's exciting to see so much interest, um, but things need to progress to the next level, and in order to do that, we need to address the issue of price because then the offtakes are not gonna happen otherwise. So we're that that's the focus now.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah. And what's you mentioned working with to develop policy is one of your big roles that you see as an airline right now. What's the the politics of it? Because looking around the world in different locations, it becomes highly political for different reasons. There's a lot of arguments around energy security, in some regions like Europe, there's a lot of arguments around the sustainability aspect of SAF. And then in Asia you look at it and it's much more there's a the growth element, the export, the pot economic potential, and how that's helps. What's it sort of look like from a Latin American perspective when you're talking to various different policymakers around developing policy to help SAF? Is there a particular narrative that's being built up down there in terms of those conversations?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah, I think there's there's this excitement about the economic opportunity. Um there's um nervousness about the unintended consequences from our perspective, is it sort of we we know the impact it will have on connectivity, so we're trying to address the solutions. Uh, but we um we see obviously the region is very strong on renewable energy, they have a very long-standing tradition on biofuels and ethanol, so there's sort of skills and whatnot, but SAF is slightly different, right? So there's also a nice focus on sort of what are the technical dimensions that we need to think about, right? So I think um it's an exciting opportunity um for everyone, but the the it needs to be sort of we we we're we're taking the time to think about it in a cohesive way, systemic way, and sort of how do we make it happen without the the sort of impacts on economic growth, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Because is there anything that are you looking at other airlines that fit a similar sort of size and model across the world and seeing how they're working with with SAF in the terms of their strategy and seeing what parts you can implement and apply productively to Latin America? Or is it so unique and such a different region that you've got to work it out and work with the levers that you've got in order to solve the problem yourself?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Uh well, it's a bit of both. I'm lucky because I'm in the Sustainability and Environment Advisory Committee at the IEATA, so I can learn from the other airlines. I'm also new to the industry, so I'm always learning from everyone. So um we are in dialogue, permanent dialogue, and the only way to do it is basically to sort of share experiences and pain points. The realities are fairly similar to some other emerging markets, more than developed markets. Um and but we have been working at regional level with the other airlines to figure out okay, how do we sort of address this challenge? What are the trade-offs, right? That's and how do we align and how do we help this sort of the journey? Because we're all in the journey, we want to all get there. Um from our perspective, because we are so focused on operational efficiencies and and and we've gained so much in terms of emissions reductions already, that we feel also that we we we we can go through our own strategy because we're credible enough, because we have um shown that you can reduce emissions, right? That's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

What what's been your biggest takeaway over the your first year in this industry? Or is there anything that's particularly surprised you, or has anything changed in that time period, in that short time period? Because it's a very dynamic space and things do move fairly quickly?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Um I think what in my role of in working in a Latin American airline, we are used to dealing with uncertainty, right? And change and radical change from one day to the next. And um I find that quite exciting and intriguing, and um the the the diversity of issues that can appear for an airline, sort of one day software upgrade, we've had everything this year, and some days something else. For uh in what I do, what's it's been fascinating to uh understand the science and the innovation that is happening in the SAF markets, and the challenges of Corsia and the regulation and the of the journey. But most of all is that we are operating in such a level of uncertainty that it feels like you're working in a startup normally because it's all new in this market. So I'm very comfortable in that space. I enjoy it, and and that's when you can bring creative solutions. So it's been extremely fun, also, and uh challenging, tarring, and more travel than you would imagine you do, but that's uh part and parcel of the of the role. So I I think the airline industry is very resilient and amazingly flexible, and the the staff that's uh the more than 30,000 people we uh that work at the group have to deal with on a short-term notice is and is very is incredible. So also I think the resiliency of the uh of the culture and and the teams is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yeah, we talked about the cost element, and I appreciate that it's slightly more nascent in Latin America still, but are you already working and looking at ways to work out how you can incorporate the increase the higher cost of SAF compared to jet fuel into fuel models and how you can understand how that pricing aspect works because it's a big problem for a lot of airlines.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Or is it simply a case of there's not enough production, there's not enough accessibility where you can actually price SAF into any sort of fueling model going forward that far in advance?

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Well, um the unique thing with Latin America is in Brazil we already have a mandate that's sort of is starting in 2027. So we have had to do some modeling, obviously. What we've seen is that it has a significant impact on pricing. Uh that comes on top of the Corsia starting also in 2027 for Brazil and the rest of the region. And obviously, we have more and less profitable routes. Um, and um the the impact is significant. Maybe they sort of even if you think, well, the first year or so not that much, but it accelerates quite dramatically because again, it's 40% of our cost times three, four, or whatever the the mandate in Brazil is an emissions reduction mandate using SAF. So um it's it's a lot more um is a lot higher in terms of more demanding than the European or other mandates uh on for the airlines. And so far we haven't settled on how to, or the market hasn't settled or the government on how to address the gap on pricing, and that's what we're working on. That's why the revenue certainty mechanism are another solutions, because we really don't want to stop flying to certain regions, and um we don't want sort of flying to become go back to being only for sort of certain sort of high-end social groups. Um we've worked very hard to democratize travel. About almost 12% of our passengers are new new passengers to us every year. Um we we also, as an airline, do a lot of social um benefits. So we we use our aircraft to transport um people that can help. So we we have programs with social allies to take doctors to do operations in remote places. It is important that we're there. Um we we take basic sanitation kits to places, we operate in terms of sustainable tourism, we in in island um destinations like San Andres in the Caribbean. We have an amazing, so we're creating a very sort of holistic program where um we realize the bellies of our planes were coming back sort of slightly emptier than they were arriving. So we partner with local NGOs to bring the plastic back but can't be recycled in the island, and that's going was going to landfill in an island, which makes no sense to um in inland to be able to, or to the mainline to be able to be recycled. We do awareness campaigns. So there's a lot of um we work with um companies that uh with NGOs that protect and regrow coral reefs. So last year we also did. Campaign on don't take the girls home, right? Leave them there. So there's there's a lot of um positive that we can do also that we do do. So in a sense, when we think about sustainability for us, it's a holistic systemic thing, it's not just one dimension. And we have uh we we feel very privileged to operate in a region that needs us, right? So we we take that very seriously.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah you mentioned the Brazil mandate. Yeah could you just give us a little more colour on that? You mentioned it comes in in 2027, you tell us sort of the level that it comes in at that point. You mentioned it was carbon in a carbon intensity related mandate. So could you sort of tell us where it starts from in 2027 and what it looks like going slightly further into the future?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Um it starts at 1% in 2027, it's 1% emissions reduction used in SAF for that year, and then it goes up to 10% by 2037. And um that means we would be by 2037 reducing 20 or 30 percent SAF depending on the carbon intensity, right? Um at the moment, um the the details are being drafted, the decrees uh we've provided feedback for the decree drafting those the details on that, um, for issues as if there is no availability of SAF and whatnot, and we're also working with all the stakeholders to identify how to pay for it because um it would have a significant impact on demand already as it is um drafted.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah. Is that a percent increase every year until 2037, or is it 1% jumping to 10% in 2037?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

How does that it's that gap scale? It hasn't been defined yet. So they the the scale-up hasn't been defined, but it's linear, it's expected to be linear in some form um from then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

And is that is Brazil the only country looking at or having mandates in place? Are there other countries in Latin America that are working on national mandates for SAF, maybe at a slightly earlier level or at a similar stage?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Brazil is the only country at the moment. Um the uh pretty much every country is doing ACSAF with with ICAO. Uh it's the program to understand what the feasibility of doing SAF. There's a lot of interest. Um countries have taken different approaches. Say Argentina is looking to make sure they export SAF and they make the most of the international markets, um, which is very exciting to see. And um Chile is also has a very serious sort of plan and program on called Cielo Impio, um, but no mandates and there's no discussions and whatnot. So there is still a lot of work to do, um, but it's sort of all very early stage, and sort of the technical and um regulatory aspects are being defined. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah. I want to come back to something you mentioned earlier around the international collaboration. You mentioned Sumatomo and the work you're doing with Japan. Uh, could you just add a bit more sort of flesh on that bone in terms of what that looks like and why it's so beneficial and why it would be so helpful for growing a SAF market within Brazil and integrating it into the global SAF ecosystem?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Totally. So um the the the origin is the question uh sort of why are the Brazilian producers not getting long-term offtakes over the financing they need, right? And the conclusion is for it's really tough for airlines, right? We are the three airlines in Brazil, all came out of chapter 11 in the last five years at some point, right? Azul just came out of chapter 11, goal came out um a year ago. And uh it is an exciting market, but it's an emerging market and it's very new, so it it really can't be the engine. The airlines are not the sort of the main client or the engine for for for that. Um but there is vast opportunity for Brazil to produce SAF, right? And um and Brazil should be able to lead uh in many, not just CEFA, right? Because they have vast ethanol capabilities and uh renewable energy, so ESAFs also. And um uh and there's countries like Japan who um have much bigger airline sectors, domestic airline sectors that need for SAF and will produce SAF, but they could do with additional SAF, right? And um luckily for us, Japan has a system called the Joint Crediting Mechanism that already legislates on carbon markets, collaborations with third parties around Article 6, etc. And Brazil also has the legislation on infrastructure to be able to do agreements under Article 6. Under Article 6, um the the idea is that a developed country helps a developing country in some form in the exchange for emissions reduction certificates of some form, right? Usually is you plant trees or you do sort of nature-based solutions and whatnot. There's plenty of bilateral agreements around that. Um in this case, we are we we thought, well, um SAF certificates uh represent emissions reductions, right? And they're essentially carbon credits, right? So you don't want to call them that, but it is it is um equivalent to a carbon credit. So um Brazil has a challenge in terms of achieving very ambitious NDCs, right? And have to think about sort of how many international carbon credits they want to issue, right? And the appetite to issue maybe it sort of might be more or less to issue the traditional carbon credits, but in the from the SAF perspective, um this was this is not currently accounted for in that um in that conversation. So we have sort of found that that um you could assign the carbon rate emissions reductions through SAF certificates to as it most, right, as sort of carbon credits to be sold in under Article 6. And um and that using those for say the Japanese airlines to be able to comply with their own requirements under their own NDCs would be quite appealing because then you're also not transporting ethanol to produce from Brazil to produce SAF. You need twice the volume to produce SAF in Japan, so that's the cost is very limited. Um and the domestic alliance in Brazil can act as facilitators, so we can ask the as the sort of guarantor that this is all happening, that SAF exists, that the regulation, whatever. Thankfully. Also, the Brazilian government has um as part of the mandate that they legislated that SAF can be two separate entities, so the physical SAF or jets, right, and the uh climate action. So also the infrastructure exists in Brazil to do this. Um so the way it would work is the government of Japan or andor the airlines of Japan would buy the certificates. Um they would buy 100% of the certificates, but then they would donate back or subsidize the small proportion of certificates because we're a lot smaller industry relative to them, that the domestic airlines in Brazil need to comply with their own market. And that is a lot cheaper than transporting the SAF around the world across the world or producing SAF in some locations. Um what that gives is that solves everybody's problem because then the producers in Brazil can go get the they will have a long-term blended offtake between a government and an airline, and um it's all under Article 6, so it's no double counting, it's legislated and it's clean and it's sort of secure. And then they would go get their financing. The domestic airlines in Brazil benefit because then we can continue flying everyone, right? The government of Brazil benefits because they they get the kickstart the industry staff in Brazil, and the Japanese and Japanese airlines and government benefit from a more economically sensible or sensitive um staff procurement that complements their own production because they will want to produce their own, but sort of there's a and there's some energy security for um Japan also because you have long-term SAF ops offtakes, these are 10-year agreements or more, right, at state level with a partner, and they're helping a strategic partner. Brazil and Japan have a sort of very strong cultural relationship and long-standing um arrangements. So we are very grateful to those that have spent the last 30 years drafting these frameworks under Article 6 and under sort of JCM, and that we are doing a little practical implementation of them. That's it, right? It's like, okay, we let's innovate at the edges and let's use a framework that already exists so that we can all get on with building this exciting market, but without not at the expense of connectivity.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah. Is this a sort of arrangement where it's a pure partnership with Japan, or can you go and look at other countries and form similar deals with them or or not?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

This this would work for any, we are making it as a policy, it's not just us. We are pioneering it because we came up with the idea, but this would work with any pair of uh countries that that one developed needs SAF, developing can produce SAF. Um, it needs the right legislation and framework. So we'll write we'll be writing the methodology, we can then share it with other countries, but um there's other bilateral agreements between Brazil and uh and other countries, and also we are in sort of of course exploring all of the opportunities. This is a medium to long-term thing, it will take a few years to be implemented, but um it is it is quite exciting, and we've had a lot of positive momentum um and people see the the challenges, but it it does address everybody's needs in a very neat way under a solid framework. So that's the idea.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

And there's the the added benefit that you're not just getting the demand from an airline, which potentially the the credit ratings of airlines are something that are of great concern to investors when it comes to um off-take agreements, but you've got the backing of a government as well to assist with that aspect as well. I'm not saying the Japanese airlines inherently have bad credit ratings, by the way, but it's just an added element that lends themselves to the solidity of these long-term agreements.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Absolutely, absolutely. And so we were talking in your brilliant conference last week on bankable demand, right? And that's it. Because um off-take agreements need to be credible and they need to work with the economics of the airlines. Airlines don't usually, or I don't I'm new to the airline industry, but generally they don't do long-term jet fuel agreements. So assuming straight up that they're going to do 10-year off-take agreements for vast quantities to justify a large staff project is challenging. So we all need to be a bit creative and figure out okay, how are we going to address it? This is not the land transport sector. The economics are very different.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah. So let's say that that sorted the off-take issues and it's it's all sorted in and it's great. Is there enough capital available? I'm going to ask you to go back to your the banking days now. Is there enough capital available in Brazil or that Brazil can get access to, whether it's international capital, to actually finance these projects? Because although you, the airline, and these this partnerships have are innovating to solve the off-take side of the equation, there's still the matter that these projects are vastly expensive.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

So well, like someone said in your conference, they're not five billion projects, um dollar projects, right? The the question is, is there enough capital? Absolutely. Is there enough appetite for risk? Not really, right? So have we paired up the right investors to the right projects? I'm sure there's innovations that can happen. Um does it need collaboration? Absolutely. So I think from our perspective, it is important to be creative and to think, um, for example, the sort of future energy global model where they're trying to think about okay, what did we learn from the least source that we can apply to this model, right? So the the sit sit and wait for a long-term offtake is too risky in a sense for SAF because of the economics of the airline industry. It might have worked in other industries. And then also we are innovating on so many fronts because the it's feedstocks. If you think of wind, right, it was a free feedstock. You're not paying for wind. The technology was a lot simpler in a sense, you're not trying to do five different new technologies, and it took still what 20 years to settle, right? We're being a bit overambitious, maybe, and let's figure out okay, what is the what are the what's the reality of the market we're trying to build, and and really understand it and maybe coalesce around the the the issue, well, we need to be a bit more uh creative in terms of finding and sharing the risks, right? And then that will make it take off. I think that that's that's probably one of my takeaways from the last two days and your conference, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah. Are you actively in conversations with investors, whether it's sort of earlier stages, the equity investors looking at Series A B growth or banks looking at project finance and debt financing? Are you in conversations with them about you know showing that we're innovating a lot, you're trying your best to provide the demand signals that they want in order to finance? And sort of aligning those two together.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

We are working with everyone in the in the market, right? You have to, or engaging and learning, and there's so much time you have to sort of to do it, but um the the it is essential that we all engage early on. Because if not, projects then go in the direction sort of that sort of some barriers that they've created inadvertently, or we could lead to unintended consequences. So from our perspective, the key is we all need to talk very early on and spend the time to sort of figure it out figure this market out and identify the solutions that are appropriate for the region we operate in, also, right, from our perspective, right? And and um and also be cognizant that no one has all the answers because Europe is only implemented demanded now, and now we're seeing all the mistakes that were made because it's a new developer, and we're seeing the unintended consequences and the distortions it is created in the market, right? So we need to also not assume that anyone knows and has a source of truth and be willing to learn. So, for example, when thinking about the revenue certainty mechanism for Brazil, um we are actively learning about what's good and what is challenging of the one being developed in the UK, right? And and and also when thinking about solutions, we are also looking at the double auction mechanisms in the hydrogen market, because that addresses the long-term and short-term disparities in terms of the ability to pay and the off-takes. Um and we're gonna have to learn it, right? And and and discuss it and whatnot. So, again, we need everybody on the table, and um, and the earlier the better. So, so yes, talking to everyone is super important.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

I want to finish with a brief bit of crystal balling. I want to take you to 2030 and you're five years into your role, and I don't want to terrify you by looking too far into the future, but um what would what do you hope that the Latin American sustainable aviation fuel market will look like reasonably from the position you are now? Where do you hope it will be in 2030?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

I think that we have a couple of large-scale projects where we've all sort of coalesced around and we're all working to give them scale, right? And it by all I mean international airlines, it's sort of an export market, investors, regulators, and the governments and feedstock providers, where we've prioritized by country, and countries have identified which is really their advantage, and we haven't invested in sort of scattergun everything, because um there's a lot of competing requirements. There's marine market also, there's um there's sort of ethanol markets. It's what is the right strategy for each country, right? So I would love it if each country has really taken an honest look and said, okay, sort of what is what generation of staff do we go after? Let's do it well, let's do it in partnership with the airlines. Um we I'm based in London, so I can be a connector with the European sort of airlines and markets, and um that we have come up with those solutions and that we have an agreement with Japan, and Japan and Brazil have signed their MOU and between them so that we can by 2030 we should be able to definitely have be producing SAF for Japan in Brazil uh under Article 6. So I would love to do that, and I think that's exciting. Um on the other hand, we will have also renewed quite a great big proportion more of our fleet, so we will be flying sort of cleaner airplanes uh all the time.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

So Maria, obligado, bon dia, and thank you so much for giving us such a great insight into what's going on in Latin America.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Oh, much. It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me, Oscar. Uh it was uh it's a it's a joy to talk about this topic, and uh we're all learning and pushing to get to the right solutions. So thank you.