Nico Nicholas, ZEERO Group: One person's waste is another one's treasure

In this episode of The SAF Podcast, Oscar is joined by Nico Nicholas, Co-Founder and CEO of Zeero Group, for a discussion on the commercial and strategic realities of scaling the Hydrothermal Liquefaction SAF pathway. The conversation goes beyond the technical basics to look at how waste-to-fuel projects are financed, how they can be tailored to local infrastructure needs, and why collaboration across sectors may be essential if SAF is to scale at pace.

We dive into a variety of topics including:

• How ZEERO Group is approaching project development, with each facility structured around local waste streams, local infrastructure and location-specific business models
• Why combining waste management and fuel production could create a stronger commercial case for SAF-linked projects
• The financing logic behind these developments, including co-investment models, strategic partners and government-backed support mechanisms
• Why investor confidence and proof of delivery remain critical for emerging pathways looking to move from concept to commercial scale
• The role of certification timelines and regulatory processes in shaping how quickly new SAF pathways can enter the market
• Why scaling SAF may require much deeper collaboration between aviation, municipalities, tourism, shipping and energy stakeholders

This discussion picks up on some key themes from across the SAF industry so is well worth a listen if you are part of the growing ecosystem that is going o make commercial SAF production a global success. We also almost manage to go the whole episode without a crude joke/pun...almost!

We are also currently accepting applications for the SAF Investor Deal of the Year awards. If you have been involved in a financing deal in the last year, we would love to hear about it. You can find the application form here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScwrzV8VN8oqA6c-e0GMlgZmttTQ-U-1D9XxnOgeeQV-ITeiQ/viewform

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the SAF podcast. And today I'm really excited to be joined by Nico Nicholas, the co-founder and CEO of Zero Group. And we are going to be looking at a topic, a pathway that we've touched on before in hydrothermal liquefaction in the production of SAF. And we are going to be talking about many other things beyond that, the things that are specific to Zero Group and their strategy and how they're approaching building projects as well as the origin of how it all started. So, Nico, thanks so much for joining us. And how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Hi, Oscar. Thanks for having me. I'm absolutely fine. And I'm looking forward to actually explaining what we do so that we can actually so people understand what we do.

From Travel Tech To Zero Group

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Awesome. We will we'll get right into that, but I think we like to start with a bit of a bit of context, sort of put people in in space and time, as it were. So do you want to explain what your background is and how Zero Group started, what what the origins were?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Sure. I mean I've had um a base of technology before I entered into the travel space. And uh and then in the travel space, I worked in rentals and I worked in uh actually having uh a share of an ownership in a travel company. And um and then I started getting into carbon management and carbon reporting, where we created trees for travel, which then evolved into zero group. Um and uh yeah, so I've had a lot of different uh roles, different companies and um different positions, and I've kind of like feel I have quite a broad knowledge of the of the industry and the requirements.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Well can you just explain briefly what Trees for Travel was and what the sort of the idea behind that was and how that transitioned into zero group?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

So Trees for Travel is it's still a separate trading company, and we plant trees to uh for leisure travel, we plant them for travel agents, and we also work with corporates. And this is a sort of like contribution to giving a little bit back for the emissions that we make. Um, and we've always backed up every tree that we plant with carbon credits. Um the transition happened because carbon credits for us are not enough. We wanted to actually start producing our own biofuels, and it was a natural evolution into what zero does as well. But we're still doing the carbon credits and we're still doing the tree planting.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

So it's sort of uh emblematic of a wider system change movement from offsets to insets, and that more people are looking at decarbonisation solutions within the industries in which they are emitting, and you're very much active and show that the power behind that.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, I mean, part of part of the reason that we actually like biofuel so much is because when a corporate buys a carbon credit, it's a one-off purchase, and you get a piece of paperback. When somebody actually gets involved in zero group projects, they actually get a share of ownership. So they're not just doing the right thing, they're actually also investing into their future. So we think that that's a really important part of um of how sustainability should work, because sustainability should really be a part of the future of a company, and those costs should turn into assets. Um, and we feel that Zero Group actually brings that all together. So it does the right thing, but it also gives a share of ownership.

Hydrothermal Liquefaction Explained Simply

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Yeah. I want to come back to the the that sort of ties into the financing strategy that you guys are using and wanting to use. So I I think we'll we'll come back to that shortly. So explain the pathway I mentioned at the beginning that you are looking at hydrothermal liquefaction as a process, and some people will be familiar with that, other people us potentially won't be so familiar as it's still a fairly nascent production pathway. Give everyone a sense of what that is.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Well, hydrothermal liquefaction is a process um that has been around since like 1920. Uh, but it has been and it was it was basically parked because pulling oil out of the ground is very cheap, very easy, very abundant, and it's still a very big part of our world, despite you know, the fact that a lot of people want to reduce uh fossil fuel consumption. What HTL or hydrothermal liquefaction does is it takes any biomass and it compresses it under huge pressure at a high temperature and it breaks the cell structure of that biomass. So essentially what it's doing is it's speeding up what the world does naturally over millions of years, it does it in a matter of minutes. So we can take a bio, we can take uh wastewater, for example, and ten minutes later we have a biocrude oil.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Yeah, so it begs the question why it pre why it previously took so long if it can only be done in 10 minutes. It seems like it was very inefficient before.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Well, there have been a lot of developments, so the the reactor is more advanced nowadays because people have a reason to invest in the technology now. Before then, when oil was so free, why would people invest in something that you've got it for free anyway? Um so oil was free, and and the investment into the technology has happened over the last 10 years really. And it's it's this renewed interest in how we're gonna fly our planes, how we're gonna keep our our um our ships running, how we're going to manage to still power our world because we can't just power it on electricity. Um so this makes sense on the fuel side. Um, and the other the other reason that HTL I think is important nowadays is because, and I know you're we're gonna go into like um more detail about the wastewater, but by using wastewater as well, we're actually helping municipalities deal with their their wastewater problems.

Why Wastewater Is A Key Feedstock

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah, yeah. I think we're gonna go into the wastewater now, seeing as you teed it up so nicely. So why does why does wastewater such an attractive feedstock for SAF production versus other biomasses that you could potentially use and apply to HTL?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah. So, first of all, um municipalities have enormous issues with wastewater treatment and wastewater management, and it's becoming worse because the regulations that are coming into play are even more stringent than they used to be. So, wastewater contains everything that we put in our drains, and that's including microplastics, it's including PFAS, which is the forever chemicals, it includes drugs that are taken and then excreted, and then it's obviously also including the biomass that we release. Um, and when that is the most delicately put I've ever I've ever heard that. Thanks. I'm learning, I'm learning. So so the thing is is that um the other thing that is a real benefit is is that it's something that is not wanted, it's something that municipalities have to process and is expensive to process, therefore they will contribute. Okay, it's also something that is free-flowing, so we don't have to go and collect it. We basically just process what is at the wastewater plant and and it flows into our system and flows out the other side a few minutes later as biocrude oil. So it kills two birds with one stone.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Is this you're talking about municipalities, is this primarily UK municipalities in the way that they deal with wastewater, or is this a glob is there a sort of a global sort of understanding with how wastewater is managed and dealt with that you can tap into globally?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, I mean it's it is global, it's definitely a global issue. Um both the US and um Canada and Europe and all other countries, uh say Western world countries generally, have become very, very uh demanding on that. And then there are um countries who are very advanced in their thinking and who are very interested in um becoming more sustainable and looking after their nature projects, such as Dubai and the UAE and other like Middle Eastern countries, Saudi, um, you know, they they they have tur they are turning more and more to tourism, and tourists are becoming more demanding about where they go, that they're actually not making damage damaging the planet. So it's a really nice tie-in um between tourism and municipalities, and we also get a lot of interest from island populations. Um so we've been talking to a lot of islands because besides dealing with their waste, this also brings some energy independence. So it reduces the political risk too, and especially right now, that's a that's a hot hot topic.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah, absolutely. Are you just picking islands that you like to go on holiday to? So Bahamas, Tahiti, Maldives, like they're your target markets.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

It that's not quite how it works. But I would love to, I mean, uh a lot of the islands that we do work with um are actually tourist destinations, and that's because those locations were not designed for mass tourism, and they have issues with the wastewater management from the mass tourism, and they don't want it to flow into their rivers and their seas. And you know, sometimes when you go to a beach and you've got a red flag up and the water looks completely calm, that red flag isn't there because of currents or because of rough water, it's there nowadays because of biological contamination. Yeah, we can avoid that, or we can at least help to reduce that.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

It sounds exact it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

I mean, some of the places are gorgeous, you know. We visited a couple of them, but you know, it's it's absolutely wonderful to be able to help these uh locations. And and a lot of those locations as well, Oscar, wouldn't actually survive if it wasn't for tourism. Yeah. So, you know, they they wouldn't have the any income.

Islands Tourism And Energy Independence

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Yeah. And beyond the you've mentioned locations where there is a wastewater problem, potentially high tourism areas which which doesn't have the infrastructure for wastewater treatment or areas that already have sophisticated wastewater um management systems that you can integrate to. Which ones the more beneficial? Because one, you've got infrastructure you're tapping into, one, presumably, there's a lot more on the infrastructure side that needs to be done in order to attach your production system to, and presumably that leads to a very different strategy depending on which whether you're going to say a Middle Eastern country, admittedly, probably not now, um, not right this second, or you know, an island, say in the Caribbean with smaller infrastructure. So, how are you looking at dealing with those different different challenges?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

So we have different sizes of plants. Um, so we could put in a small modular plant that can process the waste of up to 25,000 people, or we can build huge plants that can process the waste of three million people. Um so it depends on the location, and every single plant or location that we work with has a separate business plan and a separate entity. Because by doing that, we can adjust the requirements to suit local needs. Um what do we prefer? Um at the moment, we prefer the larger because it's much easier to invest the time. Uh it's like anything, you know, you do X amount of work and you're gonna get the same project out of it. Uh so if you can do a large project with X amount of work, then those are the ones that are the best. But our basis was always around sustainability. Uh it's where we come from. So we we actually will do some projects like uh cleaning uh lakes that are completely um flooded with algae, we will use the same systems to clean the water and to to help nature. Um so what what I like about working in that way is that we're achieving, like I said earlier, two birds with one stone, but this is really achieving something that is close to our hearts about protecting nature, and at the same time, we're getting fuel as a benefit out of it. So, and protecting nature can be by processing wastewater or it can be by cleaning lakes or whatever else. Yeah, the wastewater is our main focus at the moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

You're also looking at doing providing fuel for road, marine, as well as aviation, and it's you're not necessarily targeting one. Can you explain the strategy behind that? How you're looking at balancing production across all three of those and ensuring that is it purely market-based decisions looking at the price of HVO versus SAF, or are there other thinkings that come into that decision-making process?

Modular Plants And Project Selection

SPEAKER_00 15:50

The thing is that we get uh bio crude oil out of our system. Now, if you take bio crude oil and you put it through a standard refinery, you actually get 45% biodiesel, you get 25% SAF, you get 16% gasoline and 15% heavies, and then you've got some waste. Um, so the thing is as well, by actually taking that bio crude and by having these different um types of fuels available, it actually helps us sell all of the grades of fuel. And by selling all of the grades of fuel, each of them can again support the other side. So, for example, SAF is generally extremely expensive. Um by having diesel as a byproduct, or we even get a first uh phosphorus as a byproduct that can be used, safe phosphorus for farming, you know, for use as a fertilizer, for use as a fertilizer. Um, you know, by doing that, um we we bring down the cost of the of the end product fuel. Um and if we can get these fuels, why not use multiple um you know investors, uh, multiple markets, we're not then reliant on one market. Um I mean if you take, for example, COVID when all aviation stopped and you've invested all your money into SAF, um what are you gonna do? Uh there is no one, no one's gonna want to buy your SAF. But if you can still supply that to shipping or um road transport or something else, you have a much lower risk model. Uh you can even use the fuel that we produce to power generators, which is what a lot of the islands want to do, um, so that you can get electricity, which is renewable electricity. Yeah. Um, so it makes sense to me, it makes sense to um have these multiple fuels and work together on producing them. And the other thing is that it brings then interest from multiple markets, not just one market.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

So can you walk me through a bit more the cost element? Because obviously we've touched on that SAF's more expensive, but presumably all these biofuels are more, they're all more expensive than their equivalent fossil product. Whether you're talking marine or road, they're all they're all more more expensive. So, how through the mass balance do you end up with a product that's more competitive in price if everything's actually still more expensive, but you're just producing different percentages of different products? I don't necessarily follow that.

Multi Fuel Output And Risk Hedging

SPEAKER_00 18:55

So the thing is that we get paid to manage the waste. Okay. So the fuel that we get at the other end is actually almost just like a byproduct that we can sell. Right. And when we that enables us, um, I'm not necessarily saying we will sell at the same price as fossil, but we definitely can sell at the same price as fossil or even under. Um the reason we won't is because we want to incentivize investment into our into these projects, and the people who invent who invest into those projects will get their fuels at a not at a discount, but they will get their their profits will be paid back in fuel. Yeah. So it means that they can actually uh end up having free fuel after five years, which is mad, I know.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

So they're effectively they're effectively signing an off-take agreement with an upfront cost attached to it. In essence, there's the initial capital expenditure that goes towards the the project, and as well that they just get fuel at a vastly discounted, if not virtually free rates further down the line.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Well, the the fuel will always be at market price, but the profits can be put towards the cost of the fuel. So that keeps the money in the system, and it means that the systems can then snowball. Now, um, is it an off-take agreement? It doesn't need to be. Um, it can be a direct investment. Um but we are in discussion for off-takes, but we actually think that it's better to not an off take won't give shares in the company. Um, an investment will, or contributions will give shares in the company, and it's more it would be beneficial more beneficial to actually make those investments into the business. Yeah. Um and we only have to actually find funding for 20% of the value of each plant. So 80% is actually already covered of any plants that we do. That's through governments.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Right. Okay. Well that that answer my next one. The government. Government's coming 80%. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

It's uh bank guarantees that are um uh guaranteed um 100% of the so the bank will fund 80%, and then the government will guarantee that fund, which gives you a very sweet, very, very low interest rate of under 1% over 22 years. And that makes it that means that with only a 20% cash payment, cash down, um, we can have a plant that is you know a hundred million dollar plant for twenty million, yeah, and that. Again, actually really helps the financial model work.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Is that for one plant you're developing in one country, wherever said country is that government has given you that guarantee for that project? Or is that a model is that a replicable model for any projects wherever you do that? Yeah.

Getting Paid To Manage Waste

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, it's replicable. And it's actually uh UK who are guaranteeing us as a UK business. Um there are hurdles and challenges and due diligence and everything that will go on with every single project, but every single project is a different entity. And um if you've got the the technology and you've got the ability of scaling, then it's something that is available to companies, and it is actually something that is quite remarkable and has actually really helped this become uh a possibility to develop this. Um I think that without that it would be a much more challenging struggle to find, say, a hundred million. Yeah. Um you know, uh if you haven't if you but but when you have a hundred million dollar project and you only need to find 20 and then there's the fuel side of it, that you know it it just makes everything so easy. Yeah. And so it means that we can really do this um you know in scale and in multiple locations.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Yeah. What sort of size project would a hundred million investment provide in terms of production? Are you talking are we thinking more on the sort of three million, uh an area of three million people? Is it sort of on the bigger scale?

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Um three million, three million people will be around 150 million, so it's about 50 million per um per million people. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

And I want to touch on the I want to touch on the um the the the 20 million. I want to focus on that because your strategy for doing that's quite interesting in the sense you've got a the co-investment strategy where you're going out to multiple people, as you mentioned, investors will get ownership in said facility, and then get access to the fuel on the back end at sort of market rates. Who are the who are you targeting for that investment? Where's that money going to come from?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah.

Financing Model And Government Guarantees

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Again, it depends on the location, um, and it depends on the geographic requirements.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

So, for example, if we we Can we play a game of can we play a game of I pick a random place in the world and you give me all the requirements? Go on then. Go for it. Um let's say let's say that you've got a you're working on a project in uh somewhere in North Africa, let's say, in sort of a fairly urban area, there's quite a lot of quite a lot of people there. So Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Um if it's an urban area in Africa. Let's say like Casablanca.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

A lot of people, a lot of people. I might have to do I'm gonna have to do some I'm gonna have to do some live research. Okay, how many people live in Casablanca? This is this is the first time we've done this game. Oh that's perfect, it's 3.22 million people. It doesn't work from a lot of people.

Investor Targets And A Casablanca Case

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Okay, so that'd be 150 million. That'd be 150 million dollars. Um it does depend on how much they would pay us for their waste. Yeah. Um, so if they are if they had so we would actually choose a location on how much they would pay for waste as well. So those who would pay a good price for waste would be pushed to the top. Um, and I mean at the moment it's kind of like a little bit easier. Um let me just see here. Um so um a location like that would produce um two hundred and forty thousand it would process two hundred and forty thousand uh two hundred and forty thousand tons of waste would be processed and it will produce uh eighteen million litres of bio crude um per year. Um and what we would do with Casablanca, depending on their you probably would have a part SAF because it would probably be only used for flights coming into Europe, and the remainder could be used for shipping shipping because Casablanca is a big shipping port. Um, and then you would have gasoline that could be used for road vehicles and heavies again that can be used for uh shipping. Um all of these fuels are actually environmentally friendly. So even though they burn and they are emitting carbon when they burn, that carbon is current. It's not being digged up, d digged up, excuse my English, it's not being dug up or drilled out of the ground. It's something that is absorbed by plants today in the sunshine, it's eaten by us, and then it goes through the whole cycle, and then it goes back into the air, and then it's absorbed again by plants. So it doesn't in it doesn't decrease the carbon in the air, but it doesn't increase the carbon in the air. So, and that's why we actually also liked our original trees for travel, because uh like it because um we actually do replant forests as well. So we do decrease in different ways, but anyway, I don't want to make it don't want to go off subject. Yeah, it feeds it feeds into that.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Um I'm saying we're gonna have to do more live case studies on this podcast because I really enjoyed that. That was a great game. Um although it did put you on the spot slightly, so that was impressive. Have you got a waste of water filter on your calculator? Um so but coming back to my sort of the original question around where the where the investment comes from, what sort of for that 20 million sort of co-funded aspects is that sort of tourism companies, sort of operational in that area, hotels, like the wastewater companies themselves, obviously you get money for from them from dealing with the waste, so that contributes. But where does that where do you anticipate that money coming from or source of entities?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Generally down to um oil companies or companies that will want the fuel, like cruise or shipping or aviation um or electricity generation. Um, but also we do work with um we are by the way IATA strategic partner for biofuel, and also um we work with the WSHA, which is the World Sustainable Hospitality Alliance. And the thing that we're trying to actually get the travel industry to recognize is that they all need each other. So, for example, a hotel in on one of these islands where I obviously go on holiday every week, um, you know, uh they've got a hotel there. But if you don't have aviation, or if we don't produce enough SAF, and then you have the uh fines that come in for missing your SAF targets uh from like RefuelEU or things like that, um, the price of those tickets could go up to three times the price of what we're paying today. And if the price of that ticket goes up to three times what we're paying today, yeah, not as many people are going to be able to travel to that hotel. So it is in the interest of the hotels to support the production of SAF, but it is also in the interest of the hotels to ensure that the destinations that enable them to bring their tourists and give their tourists a good time are looked after as well. This again achieves both of those requirements. It helps them show the community who are who are giving them the space, the place to sell their product, something, and also to aviation to help them achieve it. Because I mean we all know that airlines are not going to be able to um decarbonize on their own. You know, um it's just it's just too expensive, all of this investment. And the the other thing I do think though is that there will be multiple um types of fuel being used. And I think that the airport of the future, rather than having um, you know, a terminal for a different airline, you will have terminals built around the type of power the planes will use. So you will have a terminal that is focused on very short-haul electric planes. Yeah, you might have medium-haul hydrogen, and you might have long-haul biofuel traditional fuel or fossil fuel. Um, that was quite traditional fuel is an interesting term, actually.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I quite we're going to adopt traditional fuel. We'll call it traditional fuel.

Micro Contributions Versus Big Backers

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Yes, we'll call it traditional fuel now. Is the idea that say, I mean, obviously it's dependent on the location. Is it you you get a million from 20 different, if you say needed 20 million for a hundred million dollar facility, or are you sort of looking more at four or five million investors? Do you not really care? Um, does it really depend on who's there? What's what's how's that structured?

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, we started looking at micro micro contributions, and we have found it really difficult to get people to commit, um, which we feel a little bit saddened by. But at the same time, um, we now do have interest from really big entities who really value what we're doing. Yeah. Um, I mean, we're doing a project in in the US, and you know, even the US DOE are coming in halves with us. So that and that's a that's a$150 million plant. Um we have we needed to find$30 million, so$120 from bank finance. 30 was what we were left with, and we've covered 15. The 15 that we we have the 15 left, we actually have to add on seven and a half thousand seven and a half million for contingency that is held in an account until the project is finished. Yeah. But we now only need to find 22 and a half, seven and a half of which can go back. Yeah. So for that tiny, tiny investment, somebody could, you know, they could they could actually have a huge share of an entity that will produce 18 million litres a day uh a year. So, you know, the thing is is that it means that um it just makes sense. And and that is that is one of the things I've always said. Sustainability must be sustainable. Yeah. And it needs to be treated as a business, and it should be treat it should be profitable and it should be responsible. Yeah. So by putting all of those things together, this HTL just for me, it's just it's magical. So that's why that's why I've committed all my time to it, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Is the the problem with these these micro investments and they're potentially not coming to the level you wanted, is that just purely balance sheet issues that people just don't have the capital, even if they want to, and really like the idea that they just don't have the the mud the money lying around to invest in it? Or is it more I don't see where I'm going to benefit in enough, short enough period of time to get a return on that? Where's where's where is the mismatch if you're getting interest from bigger players but not these smaller players that potentially could stack up to make a really big difference?

SPEAKER_00 35:35

I think that when you're looking at a plant of 150 million and you're asking people to put$3 onto a booking, they just don't see how they're going to make any difference. Um the message that we have to get clear is that if there are enough of us making putting$3 on a booking, that actually really will help a lot. Or on a hotel checkout, or you know, um, if you take, for example, a hotel chain like Marriott, if they were to put one dollar on to each uh each hotel checkout, one dollar, yeah, we could probably do uh one city of three million, we could start a project once a month. You know, um we could fund the project once a month just from Marriott for a city of three million people. It's like okay, so why aren't people doing it? And I think that I think that people are probably wondering if this is too good to be true, and that's one of the things where I think that what we're what we will do. Um we're working with a couple of locations where it's been quite advanced and it's been tested, and um and we've actually had oil samples, and the oil samples have been checked, and they're very, very good quality oil samples, um, you know, very similar to fossil. Um and you know, I think that once we get a plant properly installed and running, um, say um you know, on a on a city, I think that um people will actually start to think, well, actually, we really should get in here now. I mean, it's it's funny because people don't think about that when you're talking about uh the stock market making small investments, you know, buying a few shares here, buying a few shares there. Yeah. Um but you know, um I think it's we're not known enough yet.

Trust Proof And Fuel Traceability

SPEAKER_03 37:37

I think the difference between the stock market is you can look at past performance. Like lots of people go, you can you can see if you follow the the um well, any of the funds that get you can buy on a trading platform or whatever, you can see the the market trajectory and what the market's done. Whereas if you're adding a dollar to a booking for a staff facility, one lots of people are like, most people are like, what's staff? Two, people are like, okay, well, how are we going to tangibly see the benefit of this investment? And it comes back to sort of the the traceability aspect with the carbon credits. Yeah, I mean the thing that's undermined, then you you end up running into problems. So it's probably not the understanding and the transparency that we potentially need to accelerate that capital.

Why Strategic Partners Beat Pure VC

SPEAKER_00 38:28

I think I think that transparency is not the is it won't be the case, but it probably is at the moment. Um so we are um round table of sustainable biomaterials um uh member, and they have a um blockchain uh SAF registry or biofuel registry actually. I also have a blockchain registry for um for SAF. And you know, we we are working through those bodies, but I think that um the other thing is that I think that there's a question of is that my responsibility? And I think that's a message that we need to deliver because and I think that's a bigger thing, because people see the profits, it's like, well, why would we do that? Why aren't we doing something that is like why don't why don't we sort like put solar panels on that school or um you know, and then we've done our bit, and it's like they don't see the longer term, and I think people have to start looking a little bit longer term, they need to look a little bit further in the future, and they need to actually understand the regulatory the regulatory changes that are actually happening right now and that could increase the price of travel enormously, but will reduce their travel, it will reduce their business. Um because there just won't be enough money. And and if you want to base it on, if you want to say, oh well, it'll be okay because India is growing and China's growing, you know, Asia's gonna start traveling more and more and more and more. It's not gonna be Western companies who will actually benefit from those markets necessarily, yeah. You know, um, and you know, we've lost a lot of um of business to uh China, and they're very very smart people, yeah. And um, you know, their technology is is superb. Um and you know, it won't take them long to sort of like win over other markets. So the best way we can actually do it is actually by also trying to demonstrate to each other that we're doing the right thing. Um and and it and it and it again it has to be linked back to finance, otherwise, uh you know, people have said, why isn't why isn't zero a charity? It's like, well, hang on a minute, have you got kids? You know, and it's like, well, if you've got a 15-year-old and and the 15-year-old goes, Oh, I don't like the rubbish, I don't like this, I don't like flying because it's bad for the environment and all this sort of stuff, and you say, Well, why don't you work for a charity and you can do something good? Charities are always seen as like the people who have to clean up and not make any money out of it and beg for the money. Um, whereas if you're making the dirt, even if it's just your job, you know, I've got friends who are pilots, love them. They're great, they're great people. They went into this career, they didn't go into this career because they thought, oh, I'm gonna burn dirty fuel and I'm gonna uh you know, I'm gonna be bad. Um, but they get paid and the airline makes profit and that's all okay. But then when you get into sort of like sustainability, it's like, well, if you're not a charity, then hmm, you know, and it's like it's the wrong message to give our kids. If we can show that you can make money by doing something good, I think that you'll get a much much larger number of um kids joining this sort of thing. Um maybe I'm out of date, you know, because you know you can't give kids a phone and they're happy forever. So you know that's it. But um I think I think there's a lot of um there's a lot of benefit in what we're doing. And um and I think people are starting to see it, and you know, and we just need we just you know well, we we probably don't need for the first one now, you know, just a tiny bit of belief. Um and uh, you know, so if there's anybody out there uh who you know has 15 million dollars hanging around, give me a shout. Um and we've got the rest.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

So yeah, you know why don't you go and pursue sort of the VCs, private equity funds, growth funds like that? Why isn't that an avenue that you're actively looking at?

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Because I think that um we want strategic partnerships. So, for example, if you get an airline or you get a shipping company uh to partner with you, they will use municipalities, they will have a lot of uh strength in those municipalities and also airports. Airports, we've we've been we're in discussion with a few airports as well who actually want to use these systems to process aircraft waste. So um, you know, the de icing on the wings, the de icer actually is full of PFAS. So the system destroys that, and that can be mixed with what food waste and aircraft waste and whatever else, and then you get your fuels out and you can run the ground transport from a fuel upgrader directly on site. Yeah. So you essentially Reduce your scope one emissions as an airline from helping there. But yeah, I think that we're looking to be a little bit more global. We're running as a profitable company with the other parts of our business. Our technology is profitable. You know, we have all the carbon management and reporting and stuff for corporates. And we don't charge extortionate amounts for those, for that, for that software. And we also have an event side. But they actually bring us enough revenue to invest into this ourselves to an extent. We don't have the 15 million in our pockets, but you know, we can at least provide the support services to make to bring that to a point of reality. Yeah. So yeah.

Airline Adoption Certification And Next Steps

SPEAKER_03 44:53

And presumably airline funds, they're things that you know that seems to me to be the sort of prime example of somewhere where you could potentially get some really strong partners across multiple municipalities. And so that could be an avenue potentially as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

We've been talking to 14 airlines, um, and um we haven't really got very far. We've got some interest. Uh the problem with SAF, and one of the things that SAF needs to address is the uh length of time it takes for certification. And I know from the IATA conference in Mexico City that that was a big thing on the agenda. Um also with the round table of sustainable biomaterials, the speed of certification for fuels is a big thing. Um and you know, it needs that there needs to be certification, but it needs to be maybe there needs to be investment into the certification process so that it is faster. Um I mean until a few months ago, I wasn't even aware that uh fuel um on you know fuel going into planes is still actually managed on a paper-based system. You know, um it has been until very recently, and I think it is still in most places. Uh and a lot of it is around security. Um and uh you know, you want to know that you're safe, and but manual-based systems can also create a lot of errors. So um, but it's it's it's interesting, it's been a very interesting journey, and SAF has been extremely enlightening, I'll put it that way, because there are so many procedures that are in place um to prevent errors. Um you know, so it's it's really cool. It's it's good, it's good, it's all good, and and both airlines, oil companies, crews, shipping, people will often sort of look at them in a sort of like, oh, you're one of the bad guys. These people actually have jobs to do as well, and they are actually really passionate about securing their future and the future of their clients, and they do recognize that this is an important journey that we're all taking together. And it's it's very, very valuable, it's very important that we keep everybody together and on side and we don't criticize each other because we work in a certain sector, it's just um you know, it's it's just that's not a solution. And and also, you know, the carbon counting, I get that it's important to count and have a basis, but it should be a basis that is agreed globally. Because unless we're all working together, and unless we're using something that we can all use freely, I think that there's a lot of there's a big challenge about actually having anything that makes any sense. Uh, and until you have something that's sensible, um you can't start really dealing with a problem. And the other thing is that a lot of these systems are built on reduction of carbon. And I think that reduction of carbon isn't the ultimate solution because I still want to get on a plane, and the only solution I can think of is actually fix what I'm putting in the tanks, yeah. Um, and then allow other developments and other technologies to happen. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 48:36

No, no, it uh it absolutely does, and I think it's a it's a great point for us to end. It's been fascinating, and I sincerely hope that no one listening thinks that was a waste of time. I don't think there will, and I've really enjoyed talking crap with you for the last bit to the end and I got two puns in there.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

All the way to the end, and I ruined it with token saying that I can say it too then. I have a shit business. Okay. We're doing amazing things, and I love it. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Nigo, thanks so much for your time. That was that was awesome. Thank you, Walsky. I really enjoyed it too.