James Hygate, Firefly: "You can't not do it, if you know how to do it"

James Hygate, CEO and founder of Firefly, returns to The SAF Podcast for the first time since December 2023 — and a lot has happened. James brings his characteristic blend of technical depth, founder candour, and big-picture ambition to a brilliant wide ranging discussion.  

James opens with a comprehensive update on Firefly's progress: the selection of Turkish engineering firm Altaca as their HTL technology partner, the securing of a site at an existing refinery in Harwich for the downstream hydrotreating facility, and supply agreements with water companies including Severn Trent and Anglian Water that already cover more feedstock than the first facility needs. He also touches on the significance of the Boeing investment, the Builders Vision backing, and the ongoing Series B round that Firefly hopes to close shortly.

James also shares his observations from a recent visit to Shanghai on the pace of Chinese SAF and renewables infrastructure development, the implications of used cooking oil supply being internalised within China, and what lessons — if any — Western developers can draw from "China speed." We also explore the trajectory of the wider SAF industry, James's concerns about policy wobble and its chilling effect on infrastructure capital, and a frank view on whether some SAF projects are gaming mandates rather than genuinely pursuing decarbonisation.

Throughout, James returns to the thread that has defined his 20-year career in low carbon fuels: the only thing worth doing is something that can move the needle on climate change. For Firefly, that means wet-waste-to-jet at gigaton scale — and James believes the technology stack to do it is now in place.

Transcript

Welcome Back, James Highgate

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Stuff Podcast. And this week we've got a long overdue guest coming back. James Highgate from Firefly is finally back on the podcast. I can't believe it was December 2023 when you were last on this podcast, James. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

No, great to see you again, Oscar, by the way. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for inviting me back. But yeah, it's been a long, long time. A lot a lot's happened over that over that period as well. So yeah, we can we can drill into that with us and I think for the industry as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

So yeah. We are definitely going to get into both what's gone on with Firefly, what's gone on in the industry. Um we might even slip in a mention to you receiving an OBE, um, Web's already done it. Um so which congratulations on that, by the way. Um I'm not gonna ask you to introduce Firefly because if people want the introduction, there it is there. I've just seen it. It's on my desk. I'm just gonna say it's always in your pocket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's funny enough, I have to do it on my desk. It's always in arm's reach. You're never wearing it. So I'm not gonna I'm not gonna ask you to introduce Firefly because if they want to, they can have a 40-minute introduction from um our previous discussion. But what I am gonna ask you to do is give us a whistle stop tour of all the big announcements that you've had since that recording and just the landmark um announcements you've had between now and then in terms of your progression.

Sewage Biosolids Into Jet Fuel

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Cool. And that's it. You know, absolutely, I think you're right. Listen to the previous recording, I think it was good. Things haven't changed much of what we do. So sewage into sewage biosolids into into jet fuel. Um, but I do think the one an important thing to start any any discussion is is you know, you know, why are we doing this and why do we follow this route? And basically, as you know, I've worked in biofuels my whole life, you know, started green fuels back in 2003. Um, but you know, with with with and and have always tried to decarbonize and decarbonize through liquid fuels. And here we you know, we are you know looking to have yeah, combat climate change through decarbonizing aviation. That's it, that's the purpose, while we exist. Everything filters. So looking at that that sort of scale is the driver behind us. So quick recap and what's happened since 2003.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

So um on our process, we have we can go back to 2023, not 2003. We might be here for a while, three. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Sorry, I was 2020. Yeah, there was all there was already 20 years of our journey by that point. Um, yeah, so um quick recap recap over the last couple of years. So we've um we've been working on our our new pathway to to uh to jet, which is sewage biosolids to jet, and this is effectively using wet waste, and we're focused on sewage biosolids because it has a negative value. So obviously it provides you know a low, a low cost or relatively low cost staff compared to two others. Um getting this getting this material qualified through ASTM. So we've been progressing that process and producing larger volumes for testing and also optimizing the process to make it. Um our process is you know, it's a it's a technology platform, so it has an upstream and a downstream part. Um, I think we had uh back in 2023 um the partnership already with Chevron Limits Global on the hydro treating side on the downstream side, super important to us because you know, actually, if you look at the jet fuel that's used today, um 60% of it will be made using their technology. So it's a big this again going back to why we exist, need these guys because then we can do it at a scale that's meaningful and we can do it everywhere in the world, etc. So, over the last couple of years, we've been finding different samples and upgrading it from the biosolids that we had. Um the the hydrothermal liquefaction plant, which I guess is the new bit that the people are interested in. So, this is the upstream part of our process. Um, we've been doing an awful lot of testing over the last couple of years with different providers. So it's a known technology, 70s, and um you know, but hasn't really found a commercial footing yet because it kind of needs a you know a the use of a wet material to use it. It is used in plastic recycling, it is used in processing ignocellulosic waste in certain applications, but it's the right tool for the job for us. So we've we've been doing lots of trials and actually pretty large-scale trials um on the production side. And one of the more recent announcements is that our technology selection for that was a with a company, uh Turkish engineering company called Altasha. Um, brilliant, they build um, they they build these things at a large scale, they they build biogas plants, big engineering company, and kind of de-rists that that that end-to-end platform and the way our process works, hydrothermal liquefaction part will be close to the wastewater treatment works, and then you have the centralized refinery um with CLG.

Plants, Partners, And Harwich Site

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Um, since then we've we've we've fixed the site for that. So that's um with uh Holterman Carlis, it's a site in Harrich in Essex, it's an existing refinery, loads of infrastructure there already. You know, you know, it's fantastic, it's like 80% of the work's been done for us. We're putting in a um this hydro treater to upgrade the fuel to you know to to you know to to make SAF and and and and and napha. So crude SAF, yeah, quite straightforward. That's that's you know, planned got the site for that. The upstream side, uh, we've been working with um almost all of the water companies now in the UK. Um, and I think it's in the public domain, well, it is in the public domain, but it will be now. Um, sort of the work that we're doing with um so Seven Trent Anglia and the United Utilities are supporting us on the supply, which is actually enough supply for more than we need for our first um facility, which is we're so unusual in this space that we're feedstock driven. And that was, you know, could see that if you want to go all the way back to 2003, it's always gonna be what you're gonna make this stuff out of. There is enough of this feedstop, we've got enough to make very large quantities of SAF, and um, we're helping solve a problem on the upstream side. So at the moment, we're selecting sites for the first HDLs. Um, we are building a demonstration facility as well for that, which is really the first part of the more detailed engineering on the HDL downstream side, more straightforward. So key partnerships there. Um, there was an announcement, I suppose, again, what was a couple of years ago with Boeing. Um, and so Boeing are um investing in the company, and they've been an amazing supporter of ours, and it's incredible to have them on board, um, you know, with obviously a clear interest in the fuel that we're producing because it can be made, obviously, with the first project in the UK, but this material is everywhere, and so again, they provide something that can um that they're very interested themselves, and I guess their customers are very interested in as well. Um, and that's along with Sky's 50, who are uh leading an investment round that we we've got um going on at the moment, um, hopefully be closed very soon. Um, but that's to enable us to bring this all to FID. Um outside of the UK, partnerships with um Cinegro in the US, um, so they're the largest processor of biosolids in the US, so they actually deal with 16 million tons

UK Feedstock And Global Expansion

SPEAKER_00 7:58

a year. So, again, a lot of interesting fact if you could convert all of that to um to SAF and other fuels, you double the US SAF output. So it's again big, big opportunity there. Santa Par in b in in Brazil, and to be honest with you, it's kind of everywhere because even though you know everyone's obviously interested in SAF, this is becoming more of a uh a challenging waste to dispose of because of forever chemicals contamination, and so that's what's driving legislative change to see it move out of its use. And it's um it's kind of analogous to to when I started green fuels, is the the the drive I used to get paid to take cooking oil, which was great. Obviously, that's not the case now. Um but the driver for that was legislation called the animal byproducts order, which banned it from um use in animal feed. But we're seeing other legislation, completely nothing to do with SAF, seeing that our feed stop um uh getting phased out of its current roots, and so it's a really good thing that we're doing, and I think for the water industry, amazing because actually we can deal with this this issue and actually turn it to something something really valuable. Um moving forward a bit. So we've also had um uh amazing support through um uh Builders Vision. So this is a um a US, it's kind of a um a uh semi sort of um I would say philanthropic sort of fund. It's actually um funded by Lucas Walton and it's to do you know for businesses that are doing you know good things, and um we're running them both on the you know on the on both ends of the spectrum, and so incredible to have them on board, I think has opened the doors to us as well, to um uh other potential um sort of investors and supporters along this road. So again, we've been kind of lucky to be able to pick and choose the right, I suppose, the right organizations and the right people to join us on this journey. And it goes back to where I started is you know, we actually, when you look at the volumes that can be made through this process, they're they're massive. You know, you expand this outside of into other wet wastes, you know, they they they are huge, huge numbers. And so as a technology platform, this is this is quite significant. And it's yeah, it's um uh if you look at the availability of of second generation stuff at the moment, you know, it's not much. Um, and so you know that this does give the opportunity to produce large volumes at a at a uh at a palatable cost, I think, for for the end users. And when you look at the costs of building the refineries, etc., these things are kind of modular in a way, which is nice. It's what we used to do with greenfields on the biofuel side. Um, so it all it's all coming together, basically, Oscar. So watch this base, but but the qualification is is the key thing, and that is you know, getting this right and making sure this this new pathway is qualified, you know, in the um over, I would say over the next sort of 18 months would be you know, would be a big big thing for us because we need that to obviously to be able to put it in airplanes.

The Thread Across Partnerships

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Sure. You've you've brought on a load of partners and different aspects of your project. I'm really curious about whether there's a a theme or a thread that goes across them all that in your mind makes them all a good fit for you guys at Firefly. And if there's anything in particular you look at that goes across all of them.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah, yeah. Right, you set yourself a massive goal, and I you know, I truly believe, and it's one of the reasons you know as we you look at what we did green fuels, we can demonstrably say we've saved tens of millions, well, over 10 million tons of carbon today through our customers. That's massive, right? We want to get this to like a gigaton scale, because if you can get to a gigaton scale, you can decarbonize aviation. That's it, and that's a that's a goal set. It's uh it's not something that we can do alone. So when the when we're talking to these people, the you know, and building these partnerships about how you know, how can you join us on this journey and how can you help us achieve um the scale and the breadth that we need to to to do this? Um, you know, it's an amazing thing when you actually sit down and and you know feel free to go and do the sums, you look at waste, and you know, because waste is regulated, you can get numbers on the quantities of it, and wet waste obviously regulates, you look at what's collected in the world, yeah. Yeah, you you know it's kind of it's kind of crazy, but you can, you know, you could say, right, you can thought experiment, yeah, you could decarbonize aviation in its entirety. Yeah, 100%. Once you know that, that's a freaking heavy load to carry. If you've worked out how to do it, it's like, oh my, you know, you can't not do it then. And so um, we have like genuinely, the everybody that we're working with is so bought into this and bought into I suppose the purpose of why we're we're we're doing it. You know, it's great. There is a big thing, and we and we know, you know, the it has to be economical, it has to be cost effective for the end user, you have to be able to produce meaningful volumes, you know, and having it's very handy having something that you can use as a filter to start with before you even look at anything else. And that's why we started with this. It took us, you know, it's although we're still, I suppose, seen as a startup, it was 20 years in the making and certainly 10 years of pretty expensive and uh and and time-consuming RD to come up with this and actually look at what we can do. When you work it out, it's like flipping out, you know, this is uh this is mega. And so, yeah, the partners we've got, everyone's aligned and everyone's you know marching forwards on this journey, but it's like anything. You can't, you know, can't we we is greater than I.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah,

Series B Fundraising And Profit Focus

SPEAKER_01 13:50

for sure. You you mentioned that you're currently in the process of closing a funding round. Yes. Hopefully soon, fingers crossed. Yeah, that's and you know, to the levels you you need. Uh take us through how long have you been doing that? Is because some I'd speak to some people and they say we're just constantly fundraising. There's no such thing as a funding round because I'm just constantly is that is that you're in, or are you looking for a specific round? Like how how's the funding journey been?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah, so it's a series B round, and yeah, I think in all honesty, you are always fundraising. Um, you know, it's kind of uh it's not the world I'm used to. So from Greenfield side, businesses that you know we built things, we sold them, we made money. You know, we have profitable businesses for 20 years doing this, and and really, really, really keen to get this company to the point where we are generating cash flow and we are making profits, and that's gonna enable us to grow and scale as quickly as possible. But we do recognize in this in this specific space, there is a you know, yeah, you these are mega numbers you've got to raise. Um so yeah, you are always in a funding round, and it's been it's been it's it's been important for us to have the right partners. And I think with Sky's 50, we've got a you know, we've got clear alignment, and you've got something that is um so so so funds that are um being put in place specifically to support decarbonising aviation. So for us, that's a biggie. They're aligned with what we're doing. The the the the LPC funds are aligned, but yeah, it has taken a long time and it is yeah, it's a it's this is a you know, it's a you know, it's a lengthy process. And when you look at some of the other investors we're coming in, amazing, you know, the only one that's kind of been announced publicly is Boeing, phenomenal, phenomenal to have Boeing in at this stage as well, because it's a you know, it's a it people can, you know, obviously they know the name. Um, and it's a but again it gives us access and to customers, etc., in the in in in the future, enable us to to scale. But yeah, it is kind of constant fundraising, but we are very keen and we do we have modeled it out. I don't know if you've you probably I know you have met our super CFO Rob, who is uh um we have a quite a very competitive business case and looking to get it to a point where it's you know where it's cash generated as quickly as we can to get this into being a a business that can then you know fund itself and grow, which is where I'm that's my happy face at the moment. Fundraising's a distraction. Do you enjoy fundraising? Um, do I enjoy fundraising? Um I I love the conversations, I like you know, I like talking about what we do. I'm very passionate about it, as you've probably picked up. It is freaking cool, right? You know, we're turning serious into jet fuel, you know, it's it's it's kind of mind-blowing. So I enjoy that part of it. Yeah um I like to open the door and then and then my have my phenomenal team actually pick that up and and run it and take it to where it is. So do I like it? I like I like the initial bit actually, but the uh when you start into the mechanics of the rest of it, yeah, no, that's uh that's uh a level of detail that's that's that's not for me, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

You'd rather get your hands dirty on the production on the technology development side than in the corporate financing, fundraising side.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Um yeah, absolutely, and understanding the the market around the world and where we're gonna play in this, I think that I think it's fascinating. I've lived and breathed this for you know my whole working life, and it is um yeah, it's it's interesting. It's kind of you know, it's quite easy, not easy. I think it's quite easy to to map out what the next few years are gonna look like for the industry. It's probably gonna look quite similar to the the road biofuels industry did in the sort of uh 2008 to 2012, so some respect, and actually there's a there was a lot of um there's a lot of learnings on on that on that process that I think we've we fitted that we picked up on and were building into into what we're doing now to make it very strong. But ultimately, you know, this is it's there's no other solution for for aviation. We've got to win, actually, lots of people got to win in this space to make it work. And that's actually I do like the fact that it is somewhat collegiate, but yeah, there's probably gonna be some casualties along the line.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

But I think that's the the thing with any new or emerging industry, it's not a it's not a new market, it's an industry, really. It is there are gonna be winners and there are gonna be losers. Some people we've already had losers, so it's already we've already seen it. So then there are will inevitably be more, but you need that in order to actually build and enable the growth that everyone wants to see. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't have anything.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Exactly, and I think there is a lot of it'd be really interesting to see which projects actually do meet FID and what what actually is you know, because that's when things start to get real. Um, but there are you know, there's really there are real constraints, and uh, you know, you know, feedstock, you've got to have loads of feedstock, it's got to be biogenic, it's got to be, it's got to be cheap. Um, you know, the fuel you produce kind of doesn't need to be if it's gonna be a long-term thing, it's if it's actually gonna be decarbonising aviation, it's got to be cost effective. Um when you start looking at the the scale, you know, where that feedstock's coming from, if you're taking it from something else that's already decarbonizing something, you're not you're not actually improving anything in the environment. You know, you you there's you know, you're taking stuff from someone else who's producing, I don't know, like I have a project, taking feedstock from them, putting it somewhere else. There's no there's no net gain, you're just moving stuff around. And I do that's what I like about what we're doing, is it is completely new. There is a lot of this stuff there, and there is this this this change in its um in it in its final disposal route, which is making our our process look attractive, but you know, this is only the starting point. We do plan to, and we're doing a lot of work around um you know how you how you expand it from just this single feedstock using the same technology platform.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah. How much work on that? How many how much work are you spending on you know doing the fundamentals of getting through certification ASTM, working on your demo facility, working on Harwich versus looking at future longer-term, wider aspirations for the company? How do you how do you balance that that time?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Um, yeah, so on a per so I do have a phenomenal team, right? It is quite, you know, the the I thought it was all you. No, it's not just me. No, no, I moved out of the garage quite a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. Um, but no, it's a yeah, and actually we we're it's really interesting how um, especially now when we're recruiting, I think people can get where we're you know, where we're coming from with this, and so that with some phenomenal alignments and a lot of people that have bought into the purpose. So we do have a great team. So actually, when you look at the team, it it's almost working, they're all working incredibly well to bring all these things you know to reality, uh, you know, in line with each other. So there's a lot of work in our labs. It's not it's not just making SAF, right? You've got to look at the the co-products, you know, any waste that are produced. You know, also could be what's in the gas, for example, you know, again, and and for us on the input materials, is it consistent? So that's we're quite lucky. So from the research side, we've got quite extensive laboratories who had those for a long time, and a lot of kits, so we can do things really, really quickly ourselves. And we, you know, and we do make volumes of fuel, we can quite easy. Lots of people come to visit us, and we can show them the end to end process and some you know and some fuel there, which is uh which is good. On the engineering side, that is now we're you know, we we we have these phenomenal partners that can see the scale that we do so. you know on the HDL side yeah we'd be building a lot of these plants that's fantastic for our tasha and they're they're a wonderful wonderful company to work with and it's the same with with with with Chevrolets Global with CLG they can see an opportunity here to um use their you know the their their catalyst systems and their hydro treaters in many many projects in the future and I think that's the one thing as well we're not a we're not just doing this one project you know that's a this is the the starting point to it the aim with this is to actually demonstrate this and and and to you know to to to succeed and kind of owning this this whole you know wet to jet category yeah how has your role and what you have to do changed uh since say since we last spoke and say going back a bit before then as well how has it sort of evolved as your team's grown and you've you've sort of developed other things has you have you seen your you know what you're doing day to day change in in any way or are you still very much doing trying to what do what you were doing back then just slightly better or more efficiently very good question Oscar um it's a so it's really interesting so when you so went from yeah business doing selling biofuels plants all over the world offering those and you at that point you step back and there's a team doing it in building constructing things going out Firefly was almost like a bit of a reset because we recognize wow this is the potential for this is big we can't you know we can't not make this happen we've got to do it so that was a whole change for me to say right this is where all of my focus needs to be and you are almost then going back into a startup where you do you know you do a bit of everything and then you someone who's better at specific bit than you and then someone else I like to carry a pretty low bar and lots of this so it's been quite easy to fill fill those fill those cases um but no I so for me now actually no it is it has been quite different because it I I love to especially in the labs excess right I'd love to get into the detail there um I now have to sort of uh step back from that a bit and allow sort of my executive team and and their teams to actually deliver the the deliver the vision you know so it's so about making sure that we're still going in the same direction and making sure that um you know that that we're able to inspire everybody internally and externally I think to to see this as the right thing to be doing um which I enjoy actually where I'm at the moment yeah it's it's it's good but also now starting to look at the next markets and actually looking at where this where this business is going to be in the next few years but also understanding the industry deeper than we that you know than we

How The CEO Role Changes

SPEAKER_00 24:50

might might do. And so there's a lot of quite a lot of travel at the moment which I enjoy getting to go some really interesting places um but all of this feeds into knowledge that we can put into the business just to make sure that we're on on on the right track. And ultimately what do we want to we want at the end we we you know if you're gonna decarb if kind of if you want to do it in its entirety which is the aim um you've got to have lots of this material it's got to be affordable for you know for previation to to use it it's got to be yeah it's got to be all over the world and so last time we spoke we we spoke about you going to India a lot and yes now you're traveling all over the world where have you where have you been traveling to recently um so last few weeks so probably about a month ago I was in in Turkey and um that was great so that was for the um the agreement that we played with Alta which was great it was really it was it was uh um pulled together very very short notice but the the the we we actually um signed it all at the British embassy in Anchor and it was a it was a great event that was literally in a few days pulled together um I mean you think what an OPE can do you in in foreign embassy I did have to do quite a lot to get it Oscar you know it's not it's not like a little deal but hey I'm joking I'm jesting I'm just it's you're absolutely right is it it is a it is a very good deal so I do I must admit honestly never been so proud of my life it's a just it was such a bizarre thing to to to to get but totally honoured it's amazing and the first did that did it did you was it just totally out of the blue like just random wow you get yeah you get it you get another three fucking heck this is is this is is is this real um and I think it was I th I believe it's the first I believe it's probably still the only one for services to low carbon fuel so it's a pretty cool one to pretty cool one to get one of one of well one of one I don't I I need to I haven't checked recently but it was I think it was when I looked it I couldn't see there was any other in that space so honestly so proud and uh it was a cool thing to get but yes maybe it does help with some of these things um but um so so Turkey a couple of uh about a month ago a couple of weeks ago was in in China um in Shanghai and I think that is you know is kind of phenomenal when you when I haven't been to we we you know into Shanghai for probably about 10 years and we actually we did quite a lot on the the road biofuels front in in China called probably 15 years ago just seeing where you know you turn up it's silent every car's electric you know and just seeing this progress of change and when you're talking to people about the delivery of SAF projects that there are big projects being built you know from from breaking ground to operation in like 18 months and the capacity increasing dramatically and I think when this is going to have a big impact on um the uh the the the the SAF supply across the rest of the world because at the moment a lot of the used cooking oil comes from comes from China and and and and and Malaysia um actually now this is going to be internalized and production is going to happen there and so you'll start to see SAF leaving you know it being exported from China for a period of time and we're already seeing um IAG etc doing deals with Ecoceris you know for for for getting a SAF supply because that's where it's likely going to come from for the foreseeable future then it will switch to probably more of this fuel being used internally um so that's a um I think that's going to be really interesting to see what happens on the the with with the heifer market um across Europe and in the US especially if a lot of it depends on that feedstock and the same with with Malaysia for example I know there's some very big facilities being built in Malaysia which will be providing fuel rather than than than cooking oil. But it was really you know for us and our our our projects it's a you know clearly a there's a lot of available feedstock and so it's uh you know it's an you know it's understanding how best to get into that market. But yeah wow it's been everywhere really lots of time over to the US recently and um yeah kind of kind of everywhere so I I really need to fix my own carbon footprint now because I've been trying way too much.

China Speed And Modular Engineering

SPEAKER_01 29:15

On the China piece did you get any sort of big takeaways on how they're able to develop these huge infrastructure projects so quickly and get an insight into you know how they're able to do that and any lessons that can be learnt extracted and applied in other countries or is it so unique in its ability and capacity to roll out these infrastructure projects that you can't actually take any any lessons because they're so anomalous in their in their the way they can build this capacity.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Okay so it depends on what we'll do so I think for for these big infrastructure projects yeah it gets rolled out very quickly because of the ease you know with regards to permitting and sites etc you know it can move very quickly and you have you know you have and it's been the saying for a long time you have China speed and that's how these things get get rolled out incredibly quickly and we've seen it across renewables we've seen it across all sorts of things you know if you go to one of the provinces it's 80% renewable now but you know and I was there 10 years ago probably probably very little of that was the the pace is there and what China has and actually for what it's worth what people taste like Takea have is very strong and relatively rapid engineering. We are um somewhat constrained around this in in sort of the UK and Europe because of because of planning and permitting and the times that these these things actually take to to bring um these projects to you know to to completion. So I don't think we can ever move at the same pace but there are learnings so one of the things we do is you know we both the upstream and downstream parts of our process are relatively modularised and so that means that you can actually do quite a lot of the engineering side off site um and that I think that can really really help us with um you know where we're you know how we can get things to speed you know and get things to market quickly and we're trying to replicate as much as possible so we're not it's not just one big stick built plant we're doing in this location all the components we're looking at there saying right actually can is it is there much we need to change for that to do the next facility and the next facility and the next facility I think that's one of the things you get from from China also being in China actually seeing the the um the quality of the engineering is very very good you know and it's the same in take it you know that it is very very good it's a bit of a it is a bit of an eye opener.

SAF Market Bumps And Policy Risk

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah from you know your experience in you know mobile fuels with Firefly traveling around seeing other markets now they're developing and implementing sustainable aviation fuel how are you seeing the market both maybe locally and globally develop and what do you think in terms of the trajectory it's on more generally is it do you see it as being on a very strong upward trajectory rapidly a few bumps in the road how are you looking at things going forward um I would so going back to I suppose my history I would say there's probably a few bumps in the road we're gonna see the the reason we're doing this this route is we spent a decade looking at every route to produce fuels in very large volumes and and say they they don't it's quite difficult to tick all the boxes is it going to be cost yeah can you make enough of it you know is is the feed stop there are you competing with other people for this feedstock what's the fuel going to cost at the end because it you know ultimately someone's got to pay for this stuff and um so I'm um I'm hopeful and I mean I do think you'll see many routes coming and and coming through and projects happening um at a uh you know at a scale and we'll see a number of projects reaching FID oh over the few years over the next few years not sure how many of those will be able to scale globally and especially if you're looking at things that are dealing with with with with with with fee stocks that are already commodities which you're competing with with others um or other markets and if you look at input costs if you've got your fee sock input costs that is you know much greater than the cost of of SAF that's a that's a tough starting point. We're gonna need you know we we need it we need as much as we can so it does need strong mandates it does need incentives but you know the the other thing I think to remember is these are mega projects they're so costly to build any wobble you know if you're you know if any wobble from a government saying you know that something might get delayed or something might change you know the the the the the infra type investors that need to put in the hundreds of millions can't do it and so that and that instantly puts a delay so I think we've got a couple of years as an industry of finding our feet and there'll be some winners and there'll be some losers. Hopefully there's a lot more winners but you know it is we we did spend a lot of time looking at this and it would have been a darn sight easier to have picked a route that was already qualified and gone for it but but it couldn't hit our the purpose that we set in place in the first place. Yes you can have an impact yes you can make a bit of a difference um yes you might be able to you know make a bit of money along the the line doing it but it can't it can't move the needle on climate change and and that's what we set out to do.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Are you yeah in in terms of of policy wobbles it's interesting what you say that the long-term certainty you need for policy are you worried about the potential for policy wobbles in terms of mandates or aspects of mandates being tweaked and adjusted and the impact that could have on the industry do you think that's going if that has the scope to have a huge ramifications if there are any tweaks or do you think there's scope for some tweaks but the underlying structure of the mandates or other bits of policy remain intact that it they endured do you see what I'm getting at in terms of it's yeah no it does sounds like you need to talk to an infrastructure investor or a pension fund but basically basically um yeah no I think I think if there is any doubt that the the bits are going to be raised especially if there are routes that are heavily reliant on on this to make it you know make their projects happen yeah I I think that that that it just makes the fundraising a bit a bit more a bit more difficult to do. The reason I asked you you say you should ask a pension fund is I've asked loads and loads of people and no one's given me an answer I like yet so I'm just asking everyone.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah well okay and I think that's a really my view is if there is any wobble like this is this is zero risk debt and this is zero risk money that we're getting anytime that someone sees there is a little bit of risk or something might move away um they're unlikely to be writing checks and so having you know having some uh stability is really really important it's just to the level that you need so I think if there is a you know if there is a a a change that might you know uh change the quantities that are being used or or incentives that are there or etc yeah that's a that that that's a that's a problem thing on the the the South side we're we're in a slightly different place because of the because of the need for dealing with this waste materials a fee stall you know turn it on its head we are on the other side of the business we're dealing with you know we're a waste management business dealing with a a waste that doesn't really have that you know currently gets spread on farmers fields that's going to get phased out incineration you know this stuff's 80% water it really doesn't burn very well so actually you know you've got to put a lot of energy in to get rid of it so we've offered this solution to the water industry to say look we can take this material and turn it into something of value and so actually you know you know there's a solution there for you so it was an interest it's been an interesting discussion because we've got those two sides of ours we can kind of in a way maybe flip a little bit between saying right if you're funding a waste management project we're funding a SAP business ultimately we're we're here to decarbonize aviation so that's the reason for being but you know there may be there may be different routes to to get there but the proof will be in the pull let's let's see what happens I think you know everyone's keeping a steely eye on which projects will will reach FID and why um I think it's also with a lot of the policy at the moment you know I don't know how best to put this I don't some some projects I I would say are gaming this and and and and gaming the incentives and gaming the mandates yeah not necessarily thinking of the higher purpose of why we're doing this i'll leave it i'll leave i'll leave that one there with we can let that one we can let that one lie i'll let that one lie but i don't think i think that is yeah right we're doing we're doing it for a reason right planes are flying around on fossil fuels you know and and that this is uh causing a uh you know an impact on climate change whatever anyone does should be and if you're you know going back to what says there that there is you know it's uh I don't think projects should be out there gaming the system people should be pure yeah and what they do yeah no I I do agree and um I agree that everyone should be there purely I'm not gonna comment on whether people are gaming the system because I like to maintain an element of it no no and I mean that in the in the nicest possible way we want we want some saff right but there needs to be quite a large number I think of these SAP projects that can actually get to FYD and get into production and then ultimately you know that and that's the thing and it and if it gets pulled into you know a couple that that that do it and you you know the that's that's sad for the industry. You know the UK we are phenomenal innovators we innovate like no tomorrow we invent for just amazing things that change the world more often than not you see these you know these inventions and these in innovations actually impacting and developing growing in other in other countries and that's one thing I you know do worry about in the UK is that you know the the we're not necessarily um you know there's there's some really cool stuff that's coming through I think it that that could end up being commercialised at first elsewhere not in the UK this is a this is an opportunity in in the UK for SAF not just the production of SAF but actually the the the generation of jobs here and IP and all the revenues that you get around that to come into the come into the UK so yeah that's uh that's my piece before we wrap up I want to quickly I want to bring it back to Firefly so since you were last on what's been the biggest challenge that you've overcome or are in the process of overcoming and what's was what's been the most satisfying moment since December 2023 if you had to pick one satisfying moment and biggest challenge that you've you've overcome?

Biggest Win, Biggest Challenge

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Okay all right so I would say most satisfying moment has been getting all of the so I say we are you know we're a technology we're a platform using these various different technologies that have to work together I think the most satisfying moment has been knowing that we have scoured the earth for this and working out we have now the right piece of the puzzle to put together the product that we're producing at the end is you know it's phenomenal it's jet fuel right it is kind of mind blowing and now having the the level of confidence internally that this can be scaled and can be scaled big time has been yeah it's because like I said you you work out that theoretically you can do something and then you think well actually okay now I've got the tools to be able to actually do it that is that's a great feeling you know the the the the the the biggest challenge is now now knowing that is actually delivering it and that's going to require you know people and and tooling we are we are we've got some phenomenal people both internally within the business but also when you look at our partners yeah that's that's that's great um and you know we we're getting the right tools to be able to do this but also being able to fund all of that and and I think in this space you know funding um funding I think for SAT projects has become more challenging because you know because we've seen some some you know some uh some some things that haven't really gone to to plan and so being uh having something that's a differentiator I think is important for us um and providing that detail and understanding point for us but yeah I would say if anyone says funding isn't a challenge they're probably well they're right they're either an old company they've got all the money in the world or they're they're they're not telling the truth I think the challenge of raising funding is our whole raise on detra that it's unbelievably important and it is often a lesser considered factor because you can have all the pieces in the world together but if fundamentally if you don't have the capital to put it all together what's the point of having all the pieces together you've got to do it all collaboratively together in a unified way including all the the money in order to do it successfully. You do and ultimately at the end of all this you've got to have a business that makes money you've got to have a business that is a real business because otherwise yeah it'll be a lovely experiment it'll do some it'll make a bit of fuel and it'll be a great thing to talk about but ultimately you need something that can drive revenue and can allow it to to to to stand on its own two feet. I think that is one thing so important when you actually look at being able to produce SAF in volumes people are going to use it you know and will fight against using it unless it is you know at somewhat cost effective for them to do no no matter no matter how big the is well James best of luck with ASTM certification hopefully that comes sooner rather than later and best of luck closing your series B round and getting all that capital in as quickly as possible and as much as you need so best of luck with both of those things and all the other things you've got on your plate it was great to have you back on the back on the know more about Five Light. Absolutely yeah it's so good to catch up again off screen yeah we'll definitely have to talk again talk again soon for sure we won't leave it three years next time we're gonna leave it three years