Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts

How to Protect Mass Timber From Water & Damage | Aaron Gould | VaproShield | #19

• Brady Potts & Nic Wilson / Aaron Gould • Season 1 • Episode 19

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Aaron Gould is the Head of Sustainability for VaproShield – a market leader in protecting mass timber projects from disaster. Their innovative water resistive barriers and air barrier membranes are protecting hundreds of structures around the country. Their systems are market leaders on cost, labor, performance and versatility. 
 
Aaron takes us through the world of moisture management and how VaproShield is perfectly positioned to tackle all things moisture-management.  We explore the grim reality of moisture damage, and how it presents a longer-lasting and more prevalent risk than fire to mass timber structures. But worry not – we also cover the mitigation and protection strategies that take care of those problems before they ever occur. Our conversation also covers VaproShield's collaborations with manufacturers to apply their products in the factory for early protection.
 
To cap off the episode, Aaron discusses the contrasts between North American and European mass timber building environments, underlining the need for protection in all climates. We also take a trip down to hot and humid climates like Miami, Florida where moisture management plays a critical role. They helped pioneer mass timber acceptance in one of the strictest building environments in North America. Aaron’s expert insights and riveting tales from the field make this episode is a must-listen for anyone wanting to protect mass timber projects from disaster. 

If you’re in Colorado on November 9, 2024 – be sure to check out VaproShield’s AIA workshop with Sterling Structural on the benefits of Mass Timber and how to protect it taking place in Golden, Colorado. 

Details here > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GzJqsegAG1hJhS0mZK0Pi8W-podC6pbz/view?usp=sharing

Connect with Aaron on LinkedIn > https://www.linkedin.com/in/goulda/

Check out VaproShield’s impressive project list on their website > https://vaproshield.com/

Looking for your mass timber community? Attend the 2025 Mass Timber Group Summit in Denver Co - Aug 20-22nd!

Speaker 1:

But moisture is just the enemy of wood. Ultimately, it promotes microbial growth, mold, poor indoor air quality, staining and other undesirable results, not the least of which is construction delays and labor increases. And so when you have to remediate any of those, you have increased labor costs, you have extended construction schedule, perhaps a loss of one of twice as much as 10 in a project, and then, not to mention, the carbon calculations are out the window at that point, none of the UPDs are industry-wide or otherwise account for radiation, so moisture damage.

Speaker 2:

This is the Mass Timber Group Show. I'm Nick.

Speaker 3:

And I'm Brady, and we talked to sustainable building experts. Today we caught up with Aaron Gold. He's got over 20 years of international experience in design and construction and he's currently the head of sustainability for VaproShield. Vaproshield is an industry leader in high performance vapor permeable, water-resistant barriers. They're leading the charge on protecting mass timber from moisture and damage. Aaron told us the horror stories of what happens when mass timber is left to the elements and how we can avoid them. They've got hundreds of projects under their bell and have even been involved in pioneering mass timber into incredibly challenging code and weather environments.

Speaker 2:

VaproShield products were used on some of the largest buildings in the United States, like the 2.1 million square foot Nashville Music Convention Center, which spans three city blocks, and the Hudson Yards, which had over 20,000 workers on site. Vaproshield pivoted into the mass timber industry about 10 years ago and has some of the best products on the market for moisture management, one of mass timbers biggest challenges.

Speaker 3:

But before we jump in, if you want to learn more about residential mass timber and network with experienced professionals, just like Aaron, we just announced the 2024 Residential Mass Timber Summit taking place in Denver. Head on over to the website to learn more and get on that waiting list. This event will fill up quick, so with that, let's get into it.

Speaker 1:

My name is Aaron Gould and I'm head of sustainability for VaproShield. We have been around for a little over 20 years and about half of that pursuing mass timber excellence, and we're big fans of the methodology of the material. A couple of us are old carpenters and timber framers and I'm here in Tennessee, and then we're based out of the Puget Sound area, a little fishing village called Gig Harbor, washington, and we grew by the condo crisis, having solutions to help buildings that were rotting and failing from moisture ingress. We came up with permeable solutions that protected from moisture and introduced rain screen to the market and have been promoting that and educating architects and builders in the industry for a long time, and so as soon as we saw mass timber starting to grow in North America, we recognized the synergy immediately, but we also loved it and really wanted to. We saw it as an ideal wall solution initially, and so a pressure from the walls, but we quickly realized how important it was to protect the horizontal surfaces even more. They're even more vulnerable to moisture damage.

Speaker 3:

Yeah well, thank you for sharing that. We've learned a lot about protecting mass timber by connecting with you guys and connecting with your team. What are some of the big reasons why mass timber specifically means a protective membrane like VaproShield?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a great question, and if you contrast it, for example, to light framing, light framing dries out much more quickly than mass timber does, and so a lot of times light framing will be exposed to the elements during construction. But it actually benefits from being protected as well, and we're starting to see that in some instances, especially if it's a historic preservation or restoration, moisture is just the enemy of wood. Ultimately, it promotes microbial growth, mold, poor indoor air quality, staining and other undesirable results, not the least of which is construction delays and labor increases, and so when you have to remediate any of those, you have increased labor costs, you have an extended construction schedule, perhaps a loss of a flagship tenant in a project, and then, not to mention, the carbon calculations are out the window. At that point, none of the EPDs are industry-wide or otherwise account for radiation of moisture damage.

Speaker 2:

Water is pretty evil to a lot of buildings. I mean, if you let it go it's going to devastate. I mean it can be catastrophic and you want to get rid of it as fast as possible. Everybody is scared about timber going up in flames or if there's going to be water damage. What are some of the horror stories that you've seen out there, maybe in the earlier days, where you were doing something and now you're doing something else and it's working?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sure, it's a little ironic actually, isn't it, since you mentioned fire, because, although that is certainly an easily perceived risk, moisture damage is much more prevalent and much more long-lasting as far as its effects go.

Speaker 1:

And so, yeah, we've seen several examples, unfortunately already in North America, and companies like RDH Building Sciences in Canada have even done some forensic work where they have had structural damage and had to go into and replace parts of, for example, some cross-liminated timber structures, and that primarily has to do with two factors the wood getting wet and then it not being able to dry out. And what happens is you take a very robust material that's essentially like a pool liner and protect it from moisture like a non-permeable peel and stick, but then, because it can't dry any ambient moisture, any moisture content that might be in that wood, it takes it a long time to dry into the other direction, and then a lot of times, especially in northern climates, we might have a vapor retarding membrane or other material in the interior, and so you really slow that drying potential as well. So wood needs to be protected from water, well, but it also needs to dry out, and that's really important.

Speaker 3:

So how does your product, vaporoshield, differ from other products on the market? You talked about that impermeable solution. Wood needs to breathe, like there needs to be moisture coming out, but also preventing moisture from coming in. So how does VaporOShield accomplish that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a great question. So we have as a symbol a frog and we have it here. We have the little frog here and frogs breathe through their skin, and so that's why that we take that biomemical approach from the beginning. And if you can protect a building from water and in terms of energy efficiency on the building envelope, from air also, but let it dry out, that's the sweet spot, that's the cat's meow. And anytime, if you have used like a rolled rain, slipper, rain slicker, pvc rain jacket and then have switch over maybe to a Gore-Tex type of a jacket or other permeable membrane, you can immediately notice the comfort difference, right, and I used to be in that world and we can talk about that later in the outdoor industry, but that's that's so.

Speaker 1:

What's different about us is one or the permeability technology that we've developed, and you can get a membrane that's pretty robust, right, that will hold up to foot traffic and things like that. But to have it have that giant potential, to have it be permeable, is really challenging, especially with adhesive, because adhesive is kind of the leg of that signal of use. So you know there are several. It took us about five or six years of R&D to develop our Slope Shield Plus product, which is what we use to protect the decks on mass timber construction. So it has to be durable, has to be dryable, have high perms, not like less than really less than 10 perms would be appropriate and it also has to have grip for foot traffic and it has to be UV stable as well and it has to keep water out. So all those things, it's a tall order for a little, you know, a thin membrane to accomplish.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think here are a lot of people talking about how easy it is to apply and then how you guys are even working with some manufacturers to get it applied directly on the factory so they didn't have to worry about doing it on site. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and that's really exciting development in the industry in general.

Speaker 1:

So, and they've been doing that for a little while in Europe, but they haven't been putting permeable membranes, vapor open membranes that have the durability that we need in this market over here, just because of how hard we are in the buildings.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I can't tell you how many. I was just on a project that had six scissor lifts on lunch floor and a whole bunch of pallets everywhere and you know open, open, conditioned space underneath with mezzanines, and so there's all kinds of all kinds of ways that we are rough on our buildings over here. So seeing it applied in the factory to get the protection on as early as possible is fantastic. It's not always the ideal scenario, but it's a really great way to get that early protection, and so companies like SmartLam and Vagantimber and Sterling are early adopters of using this technology in the factory, and so I'm really grateful and happy to be collaborating with such great teams and those companies to get it protected in the factory, whether it be the, whether it be floors, decks as it goes up right, or roofs on a steep slope or low slope, and then also walls. You know that's probably less than 20% of mass timber buildings incorporate walls. But that's also another opportunity that we have, and we've already done that with Sterling on a project in NW Arkansas.

Speaker 2:

Well, speaking about different European mass timber, you know there are species and all over the region of the US you got the South, the Southern Yellow Pine. You know you go up to like the Pacific Northwest you'll get like Spruce Pine, fir, doug Fir. What are you seeing, the differences that North America is kind of up against, I mean, I know for about what you know 13, 14 years into the whole mass timber producing game, our own products and European has its own set of. You know, I guess you know headaches or different products of themselves. What have you seen North America have to do differently?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great, great question. And you know, besides protecting how beautiful our native species are right, our Southern Yellow Pine here, and then here's some Doug Fir from. This is from Smart Lamb and this is from Vagantin Rear. So I love both of those woods, from the smell to the look and what it does need to be protected from moisture. And so you know, it's really interesting that when you take a look at the European market and I really like looking at the climate data and the climate maps and if you look at the amount of rainfall and the amount of humidity in Europe compared to, just in general, throughout there's a lot of different climate zones, but our climates in general are just a little rougher and a little bit more moisture challenges over here. And so, and then not only that, I don't know if you've ever been to any job sites in Europe or any projects, but all you have to do is go on any of the manufacturers websites and look at the photos and you'll see everyone in like matching uniforms and shoes, and you know it's very tidy, all right, not so much over here, right?

Speaker 1:

I mean, there's some phenomenally managed job sites here, for sure, and but there's some that you know get a little bit sloppy sometimes and you know the guys walk through the mud and then walk through the gravel and then take that gravel up onto the building and that's really hard on membranes and so one of the first things we had to do differently is make it very durable, all right.

Speaker 1:

So we focused a lot on durability. We tested it with German shepherds walking on the membrane and us as well, and I'm also driving equipment on it and you know and then bringing it out to actual projects to have it be tested. And a shout out to to Lendlis, bill Tobin and Jeff Morrow in particular, who worked with us on some of that and some of the early projects where they allowed us to bring some prototypes out and evaluate them on the jobs. So we'd fine tuned over the period of about four or five years this technology to maximize durability but also maximize that drying potential and then maximize water holdout. And one other thing I'll note on that is it's not just about the material, it's about the details as well and how you have to detail every floor, like a roof as you go up over deck has to be detailed. So all those columns and post bases we treat like a Christmas tree skirt and bringing up that protectant so the water doesn't find that path of least resistance and go down and stain those.

Speaker 2:

So, speaking to the US market, then with different species, do you have to choose a different product, or does it? It's not really a one size fits all, right as a per region.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a good question to do. It's a, it's a risk management decision and RDA has done a good job, and along with Woodworks, of putting out some thoughts about how to make those decisions. And what we've really targeted is what we consider like a sweet spot of that matrix. So, roughly, you know, 90% of projects we think benefit from our approach and there may be some that need more extreme protection, like an actual single ply roofing membrane temporarily we've seen that done or an entirely tented assembly that would be like the maximum penetrator protection. But most have lean towards minimum protection and really just gambled with the weather and sometimes it's worked and sometimes it has as well. And nearly every time where it has been gambled and especially in regions that you know get more than maybe 20 inches or in a year, there's at least some staining and damage and stung that could have been easily prevented. So we just have rougher climates. But you know what?

Speaker 1:

The Europeans have also taken notice of what we're doing and we're starting to get some interest over there as well in terms of and there's a great study by Lars Olsen that I would recommend. That's about mold in buildings in Europe and all of the samples of buildings that they looked at had had mold issues and CLT in particular. He was just looking at CLT, but most of it was in northern Europe where they get relatively low rainfall, fairly similar to the climate you're in there in Colorado, nick and Brady and Montana, so fairly similar to your climates in terms of the amount of rainfall, where people think, all you know, we can get away with a little protection, but even over there. So his studies are very helpful because he articulated very well that the only ones that he saw where they fare well had complete protection. And when we say complete protection we mean protecting the entire decks, not just taping splines but protecting the entire area and also addressing wall openings and detailing overhangs of the edge.

Speaker 1:

So if you look at, for example, the end grain here really, really benefits from having the membrane overhung. Usually a couple feet is great to allow that water to be swept off. That makes a huge difference. You can go to projects I can't tell you how many I've seen where they didn't do that and you'll look at the edges and I see this in presentations all the time from people that are proud of their projects. But if you look at the edges, where that end grain is. There's all this capillary action of water and damage and moisture and see. That gets covered up a lot so that visually they may not care about, but it's still there in terms of microbial growth and other potential damage.

Speaker 3:

So you've talked about protecting timber in different ranges of challenging environments. One of the things that we're really excited to talk to you about is you guys are involved in a first down in Miami about putting mass timber buildings down there, and we know that they have some very stringent requirements for what gets built down there and what products go into a building. Can you tell us a little bit about that adventure?

Speaker 1:

Yeah for sure. And a shout out to Chris and Shana Meyer in particular for designing and doing all the work with Miami-Dade to get that approved and now they're. The great poetry of that is that they are able to benefit from that and that's their own personal residence now. So it's fantastic. But it's been a wonderful collaboration with them and very successful. We had and in fact we were all speaking together with Colin Shane from RDH as well out in the International Conference on Architecture in San Francisco this year, the AIA show on mass timber in hot, humid climates, particularly CLT in hot humid climates, and the idea is, if you can do well with moisture management in a tropical climate like Miami Florida with a very moisture-sensitive material, you can do it anywhere. We demonstrated that down there in Miami. Again, chris and Shawna did a fantastic job with designing large overhangs all around the structure Using the slope shield plus and our methodologies. On the roof it was raining even when we put the membranes out, but it was able to dry quickly enough where we had really zero staining virtually zero staining. I think there might have been one light penetration or something that got a tiny bit. I mean they used a lot of clear number one southern yellow pine on it, so without any knots showing, and so it would stick out even more, so it was really affirming that our methods were working. Just a great, fun team and project to be a part of.

Speaker 1:

See, miami-dade has a lot of challenges and I'm sure many of you are familiar with that. They're listening today. But one of those is they have to be hurricane resistant, has to be tolerant to those forces of wind of impact resistance and I tell you what and Clemson University, which I'm a part of, the Wood Utilization and Design Institute there, and with Baker Shield and otherwise, and they've done some tremendous work as well. So Pat Layton and her team there have done a great job of looking into that as well. For example, some military bases, and there's been a lot of growth at night. So CLT in particular is an ideal solution for those types of tropical atmospheres. One of the biggest challenges is termites from there, so that's. And then termites love wet wood, so it's even more critical to keep it dry.

Speaker 3:

So it sounds like you guys have been testing your products and getting them in new exciting environments and really like seeing how they can outshine and help make things really feasible in these different climates. We know that that's the first Mass Timberhouse to go into Miami-Dade County. You guys have also been involved on some other firsts of getting this Mass Timberhouses into different regions and different cities. Can you talk to us a little bit more about those?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, not just houses but the hotels on military bases like Fort John up in the way of an upstate New York, In a lot of institutional buildings as well, like on UMass Amherst campus, and I'll be up there in a couple of weeks checking out a mock-up where we are comparing the performance. It's a performance mock-up, comparing the horizontal protection of the Slope Show Plus system compared to just taped splines, for example. I love seeing that more and more. By the way, I highly recommend doing mock-ups like that. So yeah, one of the first was Jennifer Bonner's project in another wonderful person I love Calibery Woods and Hearth. Her project was in Atlanta, georgia.

Speaker 1:

She also has a book that she wrote on that's an architectural. It's called Blank Speculations on CLT and this is really one of the things I love about Jennifer's work is she has really leveraged some of the design possibilities of the material geometrically. So she had six different Gables on her House Gables project down in Atlanta, which was the first CLT, I believe, project in the city of Atlanta but definitely single-family residents and really pioneered and opened the door for others and other much larger projects like Pulse Market and so. But anyway, she did full walls and floors and roof and six Gables I think. They were all different pitches and one of the things that we discovered on that one actually is how the important it is to have the right kind of horsepower and right kind of fasteners and a right kind of driver who was fasteners, because she had some pretty massive like 18 inch lags for where the CLT if you got the edge of the roof there where it joins in. So she had some fairly steep pitches. So you can just imagine the geometry of driving those fasteners and we did a pattern to detail every single one of those around the printing roof because they all sat like an inch proud because they couldn't drive them enough. So lessons learned along the way.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, that was a great first and that's one of the really fun things Jeff Maher and I like to talk about just the collaborative atmosphere of the mass timber industry and just the great people that you get to work with along the way to try to figure out these problems together. And I love getting feedback from people. I love what Simpson's doing right now with their strap systems, because one of the other innovations, one of the other improvements that we've done in North America is eliminating the recessed splines, the rapid splines. Those things are just gutters that the water flows to, and if you don't protect them well and the tape is just not enough, in fact the tape traps that moisture and makes it nearly impossible to dry out. So eliminating those splines not only speeds up production in the factories and lowers cost, but it's also much better from a moisture management perspective and it's quicker.

Speaker 2:

Prior to hitting record. We kind of talked about some of your massive projects that you're into not really having to do with mass timber, but it's just unbelievable. Some of that, what was it? How many square feet was the Nashville Music Center?

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I think that was like 2.1 million square feet. So for those who are unfamiliar with Vaporshield, we've been around the block a little bit and I mean what a fun ride it's been. I've been here about pushing 12 years and let's see on the technical side the whole time and pioneered the sustainability division within the company, and so it's been really fun to see us grow. And one of the early projects when I came on back in was the Music City Center project in Nashville, tennessee. It was before I lived here, but that was, I think, 2011, 2012. And at the time it was the large we were coming out of that recessionary period and it was the largest development in North America at the time. I believe and at least so I was told Around 2.1 million square feet. I think it covers three city blocks.

Speaker 1:

In Nashville We've had several other projects nearby, like Fifth and Broadway. There are three high rises and 805s, which is, I think, a 32 or 36 story high rise just a couple blocks away there in Nashville. And then the Hudson Yards project in New York was another really large one that was a lot of fun to be involved in. There's one in Arkansas right now. It's a lot of fun that one has some mass timber on it, so that's fantastic. And also in Washington. So, yeah, several really amazing projects that I've enjoyed, and sometimes we get to just down. In North Georgia, about 40 miles from here, there's a series of treehouse hotels that were pursuing Living Building Challenge several years ago, and those were really small, but they were just as fun to be involved with as well.

Speaker 2:

You had talked about a project with Jeff Spiritos. What was that all about?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and hopefully I'll be up there in a couple of weeks here to visit with him and check up on that Really cool project when are they at?

Speaker 1:

What's that? That's up in New Haven, Connecticut, just a couple blocks off of Yale's campus oh, cool, and yeah, flavored soakschわか with the yeah, let's see, We've there's a yeah. So adaptive reuse is a really fun buzzword in the industry now. In fact, I think Jennifer was teaching a course online at Harvard Lack, was it last year, even this year, Jennifer Bonner, but you know there are architecture school there and it's you know.

Speaker 1:

Adaptive reuse is basically taking older buildings and finding new uses for them that are more applicable to our lifestyle today. So Jeff found this multi-wide brick building right next to the architect, Gray O'Vanche, and spent around for quite some time looking on mass timber as well, and he worked with them to develop this building, which had this beautiful street mural on it by David DeLamano. So some of you may be familiar with Banksy, the street artist in Europe. This is much larger scale generally, and David DeLamano, I believe he's a Spanish artist. Maybe you're wrong about that, I shouldn't say that, but anyway, his work is beautiful and this particular one is was, I think, commissioned, and Jeff is much better at talking about it and I actually really enjoy him his passion behind talking about the mural that's on his building.

Speaker 1:

But what he did is he took that building, protected that not only the architecture below but also the street art and then added CLT to the top and so really modernized it and is also pursuing like passive house. I don't think he's actually certifying that one because of the challenges with the adaptive reuse hybridization, but he is also doing that. He is certifying other projects nearby, but anyway, he's going for very low energy use for that as well. So, yeah, just a beautiful but beautiful project. I mean just the biofueling of having the wood interiors there and that combined with the brick, I mean what a great palette.

Speaker 2:

Now I know you guys have a really ultra luxury project out here in the hills of Colorado on the Snowmass the ORA project. You're working with 4240 architecture East-West partners, as the owner Norddeek, is the mass timber Just kind of rattling off some of the team the construction, hazelden, construction engineers, klna. Are you starting to get to the point where you're working with mass timber producers and they're already pre-installing the membranes? Or who talks to you? Is it the architect, the engineer, is it the builder that comes to you and says, hey, we're doing this project? What do you think about this? Where do you what part of the does?

Speaker 1:

the pre-design construction.

Speaker 2:

Do you come in?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a great question. Are you listening, john Hanna? So yeah, because we just worked on a project with Norddeek and at UPenn the Ivy League project and I'll tell a quick story about that one, real quick, because on that particular project we were recommended. From that, with Ethan DCI and some others as well, we're involved in recommending us, but Ethan in particular helped to get us on there. But what they did is they decided somebody besides Ethan I believe it was probably someone in the general contractor world ended up deciding that they just wanted to protect the splines and so they just bought some of our flashing size material and protected the splines. And then they found out pretty quickly that that wasn't adequate for that particular climate and the exposure that that was going to have, and they also the splines had already gotten wet and the supply was at 45% moisture content when they put us down. So the next level they ended up covering the whole thing and it did much better and that's what all of our details and approach suggest.

Speaker 1:

So yes, some manufacturers, it would have been fantastic for that one to have come arrive on site with it being protected. In fact, there was a project in Virginia, not too far away, a little bit somewhat similar climate as well, a little bit closer to the salt water there, and that project. That is exactly what happened and that was with SmartMilliam. I had the privilege of going down to the factory and helping them optimize some of their installation methodologies down there. It had their methods and means for installing and so it was neat to see it go on these 47 foot long three ply panels pretty wild massive three ply panels that were going on the roof of this beautiful technology building in Virginia. And that one was when it came out. And here's the kind of things that happened. They had very nice weather out there on that project for some time and then I don't know if you remember a few weeks ago that big storm that came in on the East Coast and they had about three or four inches of rain on that site over a weekend and I came out right before that and really lit a fire under the team there and tried to help them realize look, guys, you've got to do what you can to get this detailed in because the CLT is protected from the factory on top, but the joints they got to get to prevent that water and they got about, I would say, about 85% of it done and they really rallied.

Speaker 1:

And this is Whiting Turner. So companies like Whiting Turner and Skanska are really stepping up to the plate as well. In addition to so, as far as on the GC side, because they're recognizing a lot of times the moisture management is not specified yet and we've provided guide specs in Division 1, 6 for factory application and 7 for the traditional building envelope to help out the industry. They're just guide specs that we have published on our website, but right now a lot of times it's getting left to means and methods for the general contractors. So it really does help out a lot to go back to your question, when the mass timber manufacturers offer that.

Speaker 1:

So Vagen Timber is really leading the pack at that in my opinion. And then SmartLam and Sterling are right there and as well, doing a phenomenal job of offering our technology from the factory, because that really helps out and it's not as much of an upcharge as you would think. In fact, sterling is doing an amazing job of trying to commoditize CLT and you would be shocked at the prices that they're able to. I mean it's less than a lot of other manufacturers. Ours is even with our membrane on. It is going to be often less. I mean, it's really amazing. So what they're doing out there squarely aimed at concrete decks. So, yeah, we'd love to see Nordic and other manufacturers as well and we are seeing some others to come online offering the solutions that we brought to the North American market and yours by New Zealand too, by the way.

Speaker 3:

You guys are just all over the place different markets, different manufacturers, different building typologies. What are you guys after next? What's next for Vapro Shield? What's next for Aaron?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean right now, I would say probably 60, 70% of my time is maybe more spent in the last 10 years of the world, which I'm loving and just really raising awareness of why it's so important that we do this. One of the things I'd really like to see, and one of the things that we're working on diligently and collaboratively, is, with specification, writers and architects and especially developers, to be able to articulate and help them understand how important it is to get this specified the moisture management plan and to have permeable, self-adhered membranes on that that are very durable. So our slip-shell plus system I mean we don't really have any competition for it right now the only competition that we have are less durable and they're very vapor closed, like around one perm or so, which really doesn't dry. So in fact, we've just completed a study with RDH, with John Smeagol and Grant Finch up there in Waterloo, where we saturated CLT and several samples, coated it with our membranes and with the other solutions that are out there right now that have been in the market for a while and some of them as well that are lower terms but that are common in Europe and other places, and we were able to demonstrate that this is really cool, actually better than we thought. So like, or is there around the 30 perm range, and what we found out is that the rate at which the CLT dries ambiently, just naturally, is about the same rate that it dries through our membrane.

Speaker 1:

So we really hit a sweet spot with durability for mass timber in general and the membranes that are low perms they just really don't dry.

Speaker 1:

I mean that moisture stays in there for like very, very long time. So and I love to share the study with you but if you look at that, within two weeks of it being saturated, we're already back down to within, say you know, 18% moisture content range, just after two weeks of ambient drying, and that's at the same rate approximately as the raw CLT dried. Because we had a control sample and again, rdas just are really at the forefront of mass timber building science and it's been a pleasure, especially working with Grand Fitch for many years on these. So, yeah, that was just incredibly validating to what we were doing, but also just a real alarm to recognize that those low perm membranes are just simply not drying. So not only are they not holding up on the job site, they're getting torn and water goes through them and the translucent nature of them. The transparent nature allows you to see that raised grain and trapped moisture underneath it as well.

Speaker 3:

For us non-technical folks, can you explain the difference between the different perm layers that you're talking about and why transparency versus non-transparent matters?

Speaker 1:

Sure, yeah, and in fact it's the color, like black matters. Our membrane is black because that absorbs heat, so the sun coming on, that increases the rate of drying and that drying can only happen if you have higher perms. So perms are a way of measuring drying potential and that's through a couple of different ASTM test methods. One of them is E96. And another one is E398, which is a superior test and that basically just measures. The 396 takes a cup and it puts a membrane over it and it measures the rate at which the moisture vapor travels through it. Okay, it's much more, whereas the 398 test is dynamic. It changes, that's with just a single temperature and humidity range. I won't go into the details of that, but the 398 test is more dynamic and gives you a better picture, because obviously the real world is not a lab.

Speaker 1:

But when you do a test, like what we did with RDH, it's much more helpful because it tells you when you actually take the material that you're using, saturate it and then evaluate it. That way, that's how you can really tell. So all you have to do is and you can do this, anybody can do it at home you can take a sample CLT like this, stick it in a bucket for over the weekend, take it out, weigh it, put the membrane on it. You have to control and code the other sides with some impermeable material in order to control that. But then you just weigh it over a period of time, every day or every hour for the next month or two, if you have that kind of diligence. But that gives you a whole lot better picture. So what you're doing is you're measuring the rate of that moisture escaping and the rate of that drying, and that's perms is the closest we have. It's not perfect, but it's helpful.

Speaker 2:

Well, that makes more sense Switching gears a little bit In the industry. Is there anybody that kind of comes to mind that you got inspiration from or maybe mentored you or something to kind of look up to?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, besides some that I've mentioned already. Well, I'll just say again I mean Jeff Morrow has been great. He's been very inspiring. He's actually one of the first people I've met, I think in 2015 or 2016,. He probably doesn't remember down in Islano when he was, he had just wrapped up or was working on, actually, the Redstone Arsenal project.

Speaker 1:

You know, I think it's great that some of the first mass timber projects in North America were in the Southeast. And Jennifer Bonner as well has been great to collaborate with, learn a ton from her as well, especially just which on the design side and how you can really the artistic side of things as well with what you can do with the material. I mean Chris and Sean, I have been amazing as well. Graham Fanch, also just learning from him on the building science side and collaborating, bouncing ideas off each other. Jeff Spiritos as well I love meeting with him and he's just got such a wonderful demeanor and collaborative spirit as well. So Pat Layton too, at Coimson. I mean what an amazing woman who's really been at the forefront of a lot of things From mass timber in North America.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thank you for sharing all those names. We'll definitely tag them when we let this episode release. Outside of the people that you learn from and the people that you look up to and get your knowledge from, are there any sources that everybody else can connect directly to a book, a podcast, a show, anything like that where you go to learn?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean honestly. You know one of the one of the things. That's funny when people say honestly, it's just as if they're not being otherwise. That's a bad habit. But I would say, you know, one of the things is actually our team internally. So, if I can, just two vapor shields more Kevin Nolan and Scott Wood and Mark Johnson, Lee Snyder and Phil Johnson as well. The two owners of the company are really phenomenal resources and are the ones that have really embraced mass timber and so they're great, I think.

Speaker 1:

As far as podcasts go and other things, you know, actually you guys are the only mass timber podcast I'm going to listen to, so a shout out to you for sharing. Thank you my others if I listened to her more along like Theological and Lyons and Kevin DeYoung and maybe mortification of spin, but let's see. I can show Jennifer Bonner's book. I would say the work that Clemson, the Wood Utilization Design Institute, and then Chris and Shawna down at University of Miami, and then also a lot of architects like Modus Architecture Jason there and others in Arkansas are doing phenomenal work, and not only with Mast Timber but also with Wood Fassads, and I really am keen on seeing more Wood Fassads involved with Mast Timber buildings as well, and so it's neat to see wood in other areas being brought into the vernacular.

Speaker 2:

Before we ask our last question where can people find you or connect with you?

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm fairly easy to find. I guess you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm sort of all over the place, but I call the Cumberland Plateau here in Tennessee, home in between Chattanooga and Nashville, and then we're headquartered up in the Pacific Northwest and I'm all over in between and occasionally in Latin America. Hopefully we'll see more Mast Timber in Latin America too.

Speaker 2:

Good to hear. Yeah, linkedin is the playground for Mast Timber. It's where the I swear everyone is there that needs to be there. It's a pretty fun place. So our last question is if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing about the industry anything you wanted, what would you change and why? You sure I don't.

Speaker 1:

You guys probably don't talk about flavors on LinkedIn. I might actually run with that one in Latin America. I always love to see more expansion in Latin America and Africa with Mast Timber and wood in general. There's some really exciting things happening, really centered in South Africa and kind of radiating out, and I'm just starting to get involved in that and really excited about that. But also, I think, just more accessibility. I'm really stoked for what Sterling is doing and Simpson to make Mast Timber more accessible and more prescriptive. So right, it's really easy to go out and build a white wood frame building house, let's say, as you guys are coming up on next year, I love what you're doing with your residential focus next year with that event in Denver. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys there, dave Valente, and I think that I would love to see it expanded to the residential sector, love to see it more commoditized and accessible, even at distribution, and then love to see it in more markets like Latin America.

Speaker 2:

And you have an event out here. Remind me what was the title and where was that out here? Was that next week, right yeah?

Speaker 1:

coming up real soon. So that's going to be next Wednesday with Ellie, or no, pardon me next Thursday I believe that's the 9th of November at Elliott Associates. And again, this is another collaboration which we love the collaborative spirit in Mast Timber and this will be with Sterling and Simpson this time. And Micaela Harms is another just wonderful person I love working with and I've known her for quite some time as well. She's really inspirational and she'll be speaking on now solutions for just designing implementation and logistics for Mast Timber, and then I'll be speaking on moisture management strategies.

Speaker 2:

Representing Sterling.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, she's Micaela's one of these people who has been behind the scenes and a real mover and shaker in Mast Timber, but you guys should have her on here. She is yeah, she's amazing. She was with Whole Trees prior. If you've heard of that company out of Madison, Wisconsin, they take basically Whole Trees and they figure out a way to engineer them structurally, evaluate them and use them for elements and buildings and other factors. So she's been creative parts of the wood world for a long time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely, and so this podcast will actually come out the Thursday morning of the event that you're talking about. So if anybody's listening to this and you're in Denver, swing by that event. That'll be November 9th, which is the day that this podcast comes out.

Speaker 1:

Yep and Holy Associates in Golden Colorado.

Speaker 3:

Alrighty, well, we'll definitely put a link there so people can reach out to you guys and get some last minute tickets.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you kindly, aaron. You're a force out there and you're changing the world, especially just teaching people about sustainability. Your projects, they're massive. I mean everybody needs to go to the the Vaproshield website, vaporoshieldcom, check out what you've been doing, because it's not small. And yeah, we're excited to have you at the Residential Mass Timber Summit next year in August in Denver. And gosh man, this was a great podcast. Thanks for being on, hey.

Speaker 1:

Thank you guys. What a pleasure and what a joy to collaborate with you guys. All right cheers. Have a good day.

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Brady Potts

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Nic Wilson

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