Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts
The "Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts” is a podcast hosted by Brady and Nic, two industry advocates for the field of sustainable construction. In each episode, they interview thought leaders, industry powerhouses, and true supporters of the sustainable building movement. They cover the entire sustainable building spectrum, from forest management to final construction of buildings.
The podcast is designed to educate and inspire listeners about the benefits of Mass Timber. Mass timber is a sustainable building material that has several advantages over traditional materials like concrete and steel. It is strong, lightweight, and renewable, and it can be used to build a variety of structures, from small homes to large skyscrapers.
In addition to discussing the benefits of Mass Timber, Brady and Nic also explore the challenges of sustainable building as a whole. They talk about the importance of forest management, the need for government support, and the challenges of educating both the public and the building industry about the benefits of sustainable building.
The Mass Timber Group Show is a valuable resource for anyone interested in learning more about sustainable building. It is a thought-provoking and informative podcast that will leave you inspired to make a difference.
Here are some of the topics that have been covered on the show:
- The benefits of Mass Timber construction
- The challenges of sustainable building
- Forest management
- Government support for sustainable building
- Educating building industry professionals about sustainable building
The Mass Timber Group Show is available to listen to on a variety of platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
If you are interested in learning more about sustainable building, I encourage you to check out The Mass Timber Group Show. It is a great resource for information, inspiration, and action.
Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts
Affordable Housing Modular Systems w/Fouad Khalil of modly
Breaking ground with affordable housing modular systems, learn innovative construction solutions.
Fouad Khalil of Modly taps into the transformative potential of #masstimber and modular elements in construction you never would have thought of.
In this episode, walk through innovation with us:
Three-story walk-ups
Building modular bathrooms
How we can cut costs and be sustainable
Harnessing the synergy of Cross Laminated Timber and Modular Design
Then, we discuss the need for focused research and development within construction. We thank organizations like the Softwood Lumber Board and USDA Forest Service for their pioneering efforts, as we shine a spotlight on the success of Cutler Development's hybrid mass timber model in Des Moines. Innovation is not just a buzzword; it's the cornerstone of progress in tackling the 'missing middle' in housing.
Thank you to Fooad Khalil for his insights and for being a beacon of progress in the journey towards sustainable and affordable construction.
Looking for your mass timber community? Attend the 2025 Mass Timber Group Summit in Denver Co - Aug 20-22nd!
If we were going to do this for the broader housing market, how would we use these panels in the best way possible to keep them affordable? We felt that the three-story walk-up typology had the broadest reach. It's a very affordable development. We were actually using a hybrid system, which we think is more cost-effective, and then we combined that with modular bathrooms and kitchens. What we want to give you is the system. Our unit costs will come down as more people use our kit. We'll have a complete data set that we can publish and, in fact, if developers want to reach out, we're happy to share. Right now, this is the Mastember Group Show.
Speaker 2:I'm Nick and I'm Brady and we talked to sustainable building experts. Today, we caught up with Fooad Khalil, the principal of Modly, an industrialized construction consultancy providing market research, feasibility analysis and advisory services to the public, and we're going to talk about the three-story walk-up typology, and we'll be back with more of that. Fooad Khalil is a designer, a manager and a technologist.
Speaker 3:He's working on game-changing, affordable Mastember concepts that will be used by developers nationwide, but before we jump in if you want to learn more about building multifamily Mastember buildings and meet other teams doing the same thing. We're hosting the second annual Mastember Group Summit this August in Denver. We've got 30-plus sessions, three amazing networking parties and building tours of the coolest projects in Denver. Check out the link in the show notes below for more info and, if you like these podcasts, subscribe into the channel as the biggest compliment you can give us. It helps us book incredible guests like Fooad and brings more Mastember awareness to the rest of the world. So with that, let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Modely is an industrialized construction consultancy. So what I mean by industrialized construction is it's essentially taking manufacturing techniques, sections of building under roof in a controlled environment and getting them to site. And we work with producers of industrialized construction products, like CLT, for example. We also work with product designers so we do product design on various kinds of building products like that and we also help buyers purchasers of this figure out what product makes sense for them, whether they should invest in a manufacturing operation strategy and market study, market research on industrialized and that really varies from I2 noncombustible construction types to wood framed. Really we span the gamut on that.
Speaker 3:Got it? And how did you first get into CLT, the Mastember world? How did you go from these different systems into this biobase material?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I started out. I'm an architect by training and got interested in components really from school. It's always been an interest of mine in terms of thinking about a higher finished component and how that could actually enhance the architecture. And then in 2008, I did a modular project for HUD in Alabama very, very low cost housing for seniors. We started working with a fabrication facility that did trailer homes and we basically helped them tool the trailer home to stack three high and built a multifamily development for kind of a subsidized housing units for seniors About 120 bucks a foot back then Ultra low cost. We're really excited about it and we learned a lot. And those learnings ended up feeding back into the firm I was at and that firm started a company called Blocks BLOX which now serves the medical market and does really the gamut of industrialized construction. So they'll do everything from panels to modules to components.
Speaker 1:In 2012, I moved to Sweden and in Sweden I was working at a firm called White Architecture.
Speaker 1:I was a creative director there and we did a pretty big CLT project. Clt was really coming on strong in the Nordic market. We worked with the Lithuanian CLT fabricator there and God helped introduce CLT into that Nordic, the Swedish market specifically, and then in 2017, I was asked to come back and be the design director of BLOX and I came back in and did more industrialized construction and I've really stayed there because I think there's so much potential for the building industry to use manufacturing to really address affordability, labor shortages, cost all of the things that are urgent needs and construction right now and in 2020, just before COVID, I went out on my own and launched Modly as a consultancy to kind of help bring that about. So that's been my journey and right now we're very excited about a CLT program we're launching in Northwest Arkansas for a company called Blue Crane and working on bringing more affordable and market rate sustainable housing units using CLT to the broader market in Northwest Arkansas and hopefully beyond, and we ended up winning the Masternberg competition last year with that effort.
Speaker 3:For those that don't know, can you kind of unpack what that competition was, what was awarded to this project and what that means for you guys moving forward?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So that project or that competition as a grant, I think it's set up by the Softwood Lumber Board and I think some of the funding comes through the forestry department, and they are trying to find ways to spur the broader adoption of CLT in the market. This year they really had this focus on trying to. You know we talked about the missing middle is one concept, but how do you get this amazing new? It's an old technology but a new technology how can you get this into the broader market and spur adoption? And that was actually exactly what we were trying to do in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 1:Northwest Arkansas is a very rapidly growing region. It has a lot of ambition. There are a number of Fortune 100 companies in that area and they really want to build it up, but they want to do so sustainably or at least my client does and so we've been working together on using CLT as an important component in a kit of parts that really any developer can use, and they've been really wonderful in being open and sharing you know, being willing to share their findings with other developers broadly and that's where we were able to submit for the Mastimber competition, because we were already kind of working on the same problem.
Speaker 2:And the owner and the developer of Blue Crane is wildly impressive. I got to say, can you speak a little bit further about the head of the Walmart family and the Walton connection to Blue Crane and maybe even how do you land somebody on that scale?
Speaker 1:That was just sheer luck. But yeah, thomas D Walton are the owners of Blue Crane. Actually, we started working with them and with Alice Walton. If you're at all familiar with the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, which is, this fantastic building in Northwest Arkansas in Bentonville really has some of the most amazing art in the country. It's actually an amazing experience. There are trails around it, there's water, there's a ton of fantastic glue lamb used throughout the project. So if you're a wood construction fan, it's a great, great facility to go, great for the family, it's very affordable.
Speaker 1:And they wanted to develop some housing for the museum and, as you know, moshi Softee was the architect there, a seminal figure in the development of prefabricated and modular construction Habitat 67, of course and so they were looking at ways to use CLT for additional construction around the Crystal Bridges complex. But then Thomas D Walton also wanted to apply that to the affordable market rate market in Blue Crane, and Blue Crane is very unique in that they're trying to address a middle market, but they're very focused on design and they're very focused on sustainability. And so we found really that the CLT application we landed on was the most ideal for that segment and that's what we're actually engaged in our first pilot project, which is Project VIA. It'll start construction here in late spring and that will be our first test bed for this method, and we will, you know. The plan is to share our findings through the grant and through other ways of communicating with other developers to use our kit and hopefully get more people using it. The more people use it, the cheaper it gets for everybody really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned the Crystal Bridges Museum. So Nick and I went to the International Mass Timber Conference together in 2022. And actually I had to leave a day early to go to a wedding in Northwest Arkansas oh great, you know, like 30 minutes away from Crystal Bridges and we went to the museum. My wife and the people that were with are looking at all the wonderful artwork out there and I'm looking up and like that's some great blue lamb up there and I was, you know, nerding out because I just come back from the conference and I was like you guys don't understand like this building is going to be everywhere, like fast forward a decade. So that's like a super fun connection into there and I'm excited to see what they do with housing around in that area. But the project.
Speaker 3:VIA. How big is that going to be?
Speaker 1:Project VIA. We have about 75 units in terms of our industrialized construction kit that uses CLT. We have basically we wanted to address it by typology and VIA has four buildings. Two of the buildings will be a test bed. We'll use the kit and the two of the buildings will build conventional Got it.
Speaker 1:But we felt that the three story walkup typology was potentially had the broadest reach. If you think about three story walkup, that's everything from garden style, urban infill doesn't require an elevator, so it's a very affordable development for both the developer and, hopefully, the user as well, and it helped us limit the risk when you get into podium construction. Now you've got concrete. We've got a concrete podium to kind of work out, plus the CLT on top. So we just wanted to make this as simple as possible to start with, but we anticipate we will include other typologies. For example, student housing is something we're interested in looking at, Podium construction obviously and there are many other types of housing high rise, mid rise, et cetera that we would look at. But we want to go one typology at a time and be as systematic as we can. So as we release information, people working on developments in that typology can hopefully just go straight ahead, and they're not waiting for more data.
Speaker 2:I'm reading the modally description on your LinkedIn and I hope everyone can go there and follow along. It sounds like that's mostly where you're telling people what's been going on with modally and all your kind of future announcements and everything. But it's self-described as modally provides market research, feasibility analysis and advisory services for modular and offsite construction. So what were you in charge of for that project there, specifically At VIA?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, sure. So I kind of worked almost as a well we can start at the beginning. The first part was really putting a strategy together to use this material. As you know, you may also be aware of the Walmart Home Office, which is a huge milestone in Mass Timber. So we were working just as that project was rearing up and the question was we have a brand new production facility in Conway, arkansas. That's a new investment in the state of Arkansas for CLT processing Southern Yellow Pine. They were just figuring out the engineering on the Southern Yellow Pine feed stock for CLT. That's kind of new but it's very exciting because we have so much Southern Yellow Pine in the Southeast and we also this is kind of new and really great for the Southeast we have two facilities in the Southeast. We have the plant in Conway. We have also the plant in Dothan. Both have very robust CLT lines using Southern Yellow Pine.
Speaker 1:So we were really excited about how to use this local resource. It's a very high-tech product, it has a lot of value add in it and it's a great story from an economic standpoint, from a sustainability standpoint, from a development standpoint. So how do we get this actually into the broader market? And we started working with the Conway plant and in terms of research and feasibility for the strategy. So if we were going to do this for the broader housing market, how would we use these panels in the best way possible to keep them affordable?
Speaker 1:And that's really where we started. My role was to vet the architecture and do a lot of pre-planning so that when the architecture team came on board, we had everything ready for them, ready to go, and we did not use an all CLT construction. We were actually using a hybrid system which we think is more cost-effective, and so it was really vetting that system before we got into the pilot project, which required a lot of coordination between various vendors getting pricing, figuring out what the strategy was and so on and then, once we had approval, we went ahead and started working on the first pilot.
Speaker 3:So two-part question what type of hybrid systems are using for CLT? And then, what have you learned so far that other developers in their early stage do diligence can learn from? So if you right now, in these kind of middle markets southeastern markets, midwest and you're thinking about doing hey, we're gonna get back to the podcast in just a second, but first I have a question for you. Are you somebody looking to build a mass timber project? If the answer is yes, then you need to put together an experienced team.
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Speaker 1:You know CLT still had a slight premium, but keeping that premium as affordable as you can or as minimal as you can. You're probably interested in some part of the sustainability aspect of CLT. Maybe it's a selling point. You have a warm, rich, beautiful interior. You see that wood on the ceiling. You know that really gives some character to the units that the JIP ceiling just doesn't. So there are these value ads that we wanted to take advantage of. But if you built the entire building out of CLT in glue lamb, you were basically gonna get priced out. That's a luxury structure really in the markets we're talking about.
Speaker 1:So hybrid construction is really the way we thought made the most sense and that involves using CLT primarily as the floor, deck and roof. So we have CLT panels at the floor, deck and roof, load bearing stick framed or panelized walls, but basically the loads are coming down through the walls. And then we combine that with modular bathrooms and kitchens that we were sourcing centrally. So you're really trying to leverage that industrialized construction to the greatest extent possible and then using the CLT where it has the best impact. And really a CLT floor deck is a really competitive floor deck because if you think about trusses or other systems. You have so many pieces to set up that structure, but a CLT it's just one and done right. So there's a simplicity to it. That made sense and we were very mindful not to push more CLT onto the job than it could take.
Speaker 2:I'm curious you created a write up the modly on LinkedIn and you talked about the VIA project, and then one of the things that was mentioned was the bathroom systems. Are you still going with the Bath Systems USA modular approach?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, that's a big part of this. And Bath Systems. We actually met Bath Systems. We were already planning to use modular bathrooms and if you think about the cost of a housing unit, your highest cost is gonna be your kitchens and baths. And so you really.
Speaker 1:It's not just enough to use CLT, You've got to combine that with other things to make the build out really efficient. We met Bath Systems at the Mass Timber Conference. They were the only modular bath manufacturer on the floor and it just so happened that their system really works very well with CLT. So as you lay down a CLT floor deck you'll have a topping, and the Bath System unit requires a topping as well, so you can use that topping to level out the floor and then it pairs very well with, it mates very well with the Bath Systems. So those two things kind of made a lot of sense. And in terms of the aesthetics that we were trying to go for, we really wanted to go for as high end to finish as we could in the bathrooms and then use the CLT as kind of the ceiling feature and then keep everything else as simple as we could make it.
Speaker 2:That's gonna be beautiful. We came across that exhibitor table at the International Mass Timber Conference too. Ricardo, I believe, is the owner yeah, Ricardo Shanti. Yeah, he's good yeah, super cool guy. I gotta give a shout out to Ricardo. Yeah, no, their Bath System, their wetwall system, is it's stunning, I mean it really is.
Speaker 2:European finishes. So you have very big square tiles and it just looks. I'm sure the quality is there, don't get me wrong. But it looks stunning and very, very high end, to where you're like, hey, what is this price? And then they tell you, like you're kidding me, let's get a couple of them going. Yes, me and Brady were talking about him. He's like, hey, talk to us, you know, when you're doing maybe 10, 20, 50 plus unit projects we were still working on like a duplex, triplex, quadplex system, but they're very high on our radar. So that was cool that you're gonna actually put it into the real world, into a real project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's an example of how industrialized construction can really help bring value to a developer. So you've really got to focus on these value-added things and if you can figure out a relationship with a we call them OEMs Original Equipment Manufacturer these are people that buy things like tile and bathtubs and fixtures and panels directly from the source, so they're an OEM. Well, it's really like a tier one. They have relationships to the mills. If they're making CLT, if you're making a bathroom, you're buying tile from the plant itself. You're not buying them retail from a distributor. You go and get the plant price because you can actually consume that much product right. So that's a way to get the benefits out.
Speaker 1:And one of the things we're trying to do is develop standardized designs with bathrooms with bath system that other developers can use our designs.
Speaker 1:So we're being very conscious about the flexibility of those bathrooms, the utility of them, getting them as tight as they can be but as nice as they can be, as impactful as they can be, and the idea is that once we get the prototyping done because that is a cost we'll sell that unit to the broader market and they don't have to figure out.
Speaker 1:It makes the minimum order size lower. So you guys can probably just use one of our modular bathroom type 3s which are very high utility and you don't have to worry about how does this work, how do I get the block to my architect, how much does this actually cost? Has Ricardo ever built one before? We've taken care of all of that for you and that's really. I think that speaks to Tom and Stu and the rest of the Blue Crane's vision for this program in that they've been very generous in being willing to share really costs that they've had to take on to do this. But that's really a wonderful part of the opportunity we have here is to really for the broader market, not just for Blue Crane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's an incredibly generous point one. But point two it's going to spur adoption across different developers, whether you're building 75, 80 unit complexes or 10. And then you can scale that across many different markets, like, yeah, there's some specifics that you need to tailor for each one, but if you can take something, that's 80% of the way there. It takes the risk and the cost premium to do due diligence out of these smaller developer hands and they can say, hey, we already know within this degree of certainty what these systems are capable, what you need. And then here's your price variability on the end.
Speaker 3:I think that is something, especially to smaller developers is going to be incredibly important, and so just kudos to you and to the Walton team for putting that out into the world, because the people that I talk to that's one of the things that stops them from pursuing these types of systems. It's just too new, it's too uncertainty, the risk is too high, and then if you have to spend a buttload of money to do your due diligence, that's already coming off the top in your performance. So to already be most of the way there is tremendous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really daunting. Right Margin's are so tight, there's so much risk. Already You're dealing with regulations, approvals, permitting, contracting, and now you've got to figure out how to do these brand new systems that nobody's really seen before. Everybody claims they work. You might have to hire very expensive engineers, you might have to take trips out to plants, and it's a big commitment for a developer, even a big developer. So anything we can do to ease that and spur the adoption. We know that our unit costs will come down as more people use our kit and that's reason enough, we think, to do this.
Speaker 2:You were talking a little bit before we hit record, about how impressive to switch gears a little bit but to keep on the same project. That you're forgive me, I'm looking at the name VIA project, but you decided to use Sterling Solutions Structural CLT. Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big part of what I do. So instead of tying up the architectural or engineering team, there's just there really is a lot of variables when you go to a CLT plant. One of the wonderful things about a lot of these plants is they can design an engineer or the panel any way you want. Right, you could have fur on the outside and pine on the inside. You can do whatever. However many layers, they can really engineer it to a fine degree. But when you're talking about affordable, there is such a thing as having too many variables, and what we really need are some easy to use, standardized panels that will work with a layout, with a grid layout. On a typical, let's say, it's a three-story walkup. How would that work? So we spend a lot of time looking at layout grids. Sterling is, I think, the number one producer by volume of cross-laminated timber in the world. Is this true? I believe this is true.
Speaker 2:I believe so. Yeah, I'm 99.9% sure they got their footing with big crane matting for these massive equipments to lay down a floor, if you will, so they can drive across big mud, bogs or things that you'd get stuck.
Speaker 1:And so they can offer some price certainty at the cost of selection, right, so you can have selection or you can have kind of cost, and so they're on the cost side. So for a small-time developer, they really would like to know right from the bat what can I do to get this as minimal as possible. And since these guys make so much of it, the trade-off is look if you're willing to work with our grid, we know we can get you this panel at this number and I think for a lot of people that are trying to enter the market, I think that's a good place to start.
Speaker 2:It's huge and we've heard, you know, I don't know what else to call it besides a little bit of a nightmare, you know, a surprise nightmare. But you have some of these construction crews or you have some of these crews that have done it before and they almost like demand hey, we want, we want seven ply, or we want to work with, like this producer over here because we've done it in the past. But if you take a really, really cold, hard look, or you know, you read in between the lines you can figure out hey, you know, actually we only needed a three or five ply Cross-laminated timber here and you are paying way more than you should have to that Unsuspecting person who maybe just wants to drive the project across the finish line. Yeah, maybe they spent a little bit more money than they should, but you're starting to hear these things where there could be. You know the, the people like you or these pre-construction managers are so valuable Because they know how to have those hard-hitting questions.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I have to say, even even with Sterling's very competitive number, it still was not enough, I have to tell you. So the three and five ply distinction, that's a that matters a lot, mm-hmm. And in order to actually get the project to work, we had to go a little bit further. And so what we actually? We even hybridized the thicknesses, so we we only use three ply in over our kitchens and baths and we can seal that in a rated assembly with a drop ceiling. And we need that drop ceiling anyway because we're getting venting out, we're getting lighting and electrical done. You're usually over the kitchen and typically in the kitchen you'll see a lower ceiling and then a higher ceiling in the, the living area. So the living areas use a five ply, the Kitchen areas and bathroom areas use a three ply. We were able to realize 12% additional savings on the CLT order that way, and actually I think we can even go higher than that. I think we can get more. And that has to do more with the layouts and and the. You know how much repetition you want in the layouts.
Speaker 1:But that was a critical point and we had to work with, we work, we Fortunate enough to work with aspect engineers out of Vancouver. They really are a One of the pioneers of multifamily housing in CLT and they helped us develop standardized details For this kit to transition that three and five ply. What kind of splines do we want to use? Where do the transitions work? How do we keep the waste on the panel layouts to a minimum so you're getting the most fiber per panel that you possibly can?
Speaker 1:And then we developed a series of guidance documents using these layouts that we gave to the architectural team so as they came in and started working on the layouts, they had all the information they needed to be very efficient about doing the plans. The architects have a lot to do. Okay, anything we can do and I am one, so I'm I'm not. I'm not speaking against them or anything, but anything you can do to kind of allow them to focus on the real value added areas and and less on Things that have already been figured out. You know that that really helps them deliver a higher quality project. Yeah for sure it's.
Speaker 3:So. These guides, these resources, these systems, if you will, that you guys are putting out and developing, when do you think that they're going to be ready to share to the public?
Speaker 1:Well, we want to be very careful. So, you know, the proof is going to be in the pudding and that's when the unit actually gets built. The job is successful. You can put your eyes and ears and hands on it, right, you can walk into these things. Oh, this is pretty good, and so I think what we're my plan is over the next few weeks will be writing some Probably some LinkedIn posts, maybe some social media posts that introduce some of the concepts here. But then we really want to validate Are the performance of the project.
Speaker 1:We're pulling in a group called ICG. They work with us on Time studies, process engineering, so we want to look at the erection sequence on the site. We want to make sure that you know we're factoring in erection costs. We want to make sure we involve all the lessons learned. You always learn things when you go into construction and those learnings should be captured and and then fed into the next iteration, right, and it's really not complete as a study until you go through that full cycle. So we're gonna share informally so people know what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:You know, probably on social media, but then, once we're done, we'll have a complete data set that we can publish we hope to work with Woodworks, masternberg conference etc. And really give a comprehensive review of what we're doing. But you know I don't want to, I don't want to get ahead of it, because that that performance data is just as important as the design Right and and we don't have that yet. But we'll be going into, we will be going vertical on that project. August 15th, that's when the panels will show up on site and hopefully by the end of the year We'll have a pretty complete story to tell.
Speaker 2:So that'll be, good here and kind of see what the, the ending you know, could you come up with?
Speaker 1:I did have the endings.
Speaker 2:Everyone likes a good happy ending.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So for you talk about how, like what comes down the road, you're always looking ahead, you're always looking to create this affordable housing. Will a person you know let's get the walls up, let's get this thing Enclosed, and you know the proof is in the pudding, but so will a person be able to come to you, a developer, and say, hey, love that project, can I buy those designs from you? And then could they plug and play that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we want to be very clear we we the designs are. You know we're working within the context of AEC, so so we have copyright on the designs. That's the architects copyright we're. What we want to give you is the system. The designs are yours. You can use the system and it's flexible enough that you can come up with your own design.
Speaker 1:I mean, when you talk about three-story walk-up, you know people typically understand what that is. You know there may be a breezeway or a central corridor, that those are some options there, but you know everybody knows what that is and so that's an easy one. So we want to go very systematically, typology by typology. But yes, and in fact, if developers want to reach out right now, if they're willing to look at it in in this format, we're happy to share right now. You know directly, that's not a problem. It's just that when we publish, we want to make sure we have an opportunity to validate the data that we publish. That's all but. But we're happy to share right now.
Speaker 1:There's really nothing hidden. Sterling's been fantastic as a partner and If, if anybody you know, they're very happy to introduce anyone to them. I really I brag on them all the time about system is a fantastic supplier. We've been working with the, the spline manufacturers. You know some of our details. We're happy to share on techniques and details We've worked out to the state. So there's really everything we're trying to do as much kind of off-the-shelf Stuff that is available in the broader market that any developer can implement easily and cost effectively. That's really our frame here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so knowing that the proof is going to be in the pudding, you know, circa August and a little bit later. But if you were sharing an elevator for somebody and you've got one minute To tell them why they should consider building with CLT hybrid systems, what would you say? That?
Speaker 1:Well, if you're, if you're interested in in getting a kind of a cutting-edge finish and I'm gonna just we're talking mid-200s in that market, so Well within reach. Obviously there are adjustments right, depending on where you are in the country, but we're in Northwest Arkansas in mid-200s. It is a very tight labor market. There Doesn't seem like somewhere where you'd have a lot of scarcity. But actually with all the construction they're doing, it's actually very hard to get things done and everybody is seeing an unexpected escalation, no matter what market you're in. So if you're looking at something in that range and you're interested in low rise, right now it's low rise, it'll be other forms later. We think we have an answer for you. That's a good one.
Speaker 2:And was that building the mid 200s per square foot finished or selling like a per unit in the mid to un that's construction.
Speaker 1:Got it Mid 200, a square foot.
Speaker 2:Finished cost.
Speaker 1:Construction cost yeah.
Speaker 2:Construction cost. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I mean you look around a cross section of where the prices have risen to and you start getting up into three $400 pretty quickly. If you want anything custom and nicer, you're playing up there. So those are nice, those are good numbers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we think it's a really competitive system right out of the gate. And you're talking about a higher finish. I mean we have hands-grow he fixtures in the bathrooms, we have Italian tile, we have CLT ceilings, you know wood ceilings. I mean it's amazing, right. That's a pretty nice unit, right.
Speaker 2:Well, you're getting us excited. I know there's kind of you know there's more of a coined term the missing middle not to say that this is dedicated for that, but you know there's this number where middle America and they're just having a lot of trouble affording these types of housing, and so this is just a massive problem. Thank you so much for coming on. We can't wait to see you at the International Mass Timber Conference. Well, excuse me, no, you're not going to that one, but we will see you at the Mass Timber Group Summit, coming up in Denver, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, correct, I'll be there.
Speaker 2:Sterling's going to be there, so you can say hi to McKayla and everything. But before we ask our last question where can people find and connect with your organization?
Speaker 1:Sure, if you'd like to reach out, you can find me at infomodly m-o-d-l-y. At gmailcom and also check out my LinkedIn profile. There's a modly page, m-o-d-l-y. Or look for Fuad Khalil. Look at my LinkedIn page. Reach out. I'm happy to talk to you at any time.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate it, and you do go by Fu, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, fu. And for people, if they want to type that in Fuad is F-O-U-A-D, last name Khalil-K-H-A-L-I-L, your LinkedIn will pop right up. And for our final question, if you have a magic wand and you could change one thing in the industry, anything you want, what would it be and why?
Speaker 1:I'd really like us to do a lot more R&D that was focused on the problems that people are dealing with right now. I think we do some R&D, but a lot of it is maybe not as targeted to that kind of missing middle, and I'd like to see more excitement about that. I know it doesn't seem very glamorous, but it is actually very cool to try and figure out innovative ways to bring higher quality construction to that segment. So we need as much R&D as we can get, and I'm very grateful for the Softwood Lumber Board and the USDA Forest Service for doing this, and I hope there's a lot more of it in the years to come. We need as much as we can get.
Speaker 2:And one last thing to add. I believe this is happening. We've found another story with a Cutler Development. They're a smaller development company in Des Moines, iowa, and they are doing this hybrid mass timber model and they're getting it to Pencil. Right now they're on their second one. If anybody's interested, please go to the Mass Timber Group show on YouTube. Check out that new podcast and I think that was released last week, but you'll see it. It's one of our freshest ones. But again, this was awesome. Poo. Thank you so much. We appreciate your time. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:It was a pleasure.
