Mass Timber Trends You Need to Know w/ Dean Lewis of Skanska

What makes mass timber an increasingly attractive choice for sustainable building, and how are major players like Skanska leveraging it for innovation? Dean Lewis, Director of Mass Timber and Prefabrication at Skanska, breaks down the opportunities and challenges in this growing industry. From evolving building codes that enable 18-story wood structures to jurisdictional incentives like those in Redmond, Washington, Dean reveals how mass timber is reshaping construction. He dives into moisture mitigation strategies, the role of prefabrication, and the need for holistic project planning. Whether it's the lighter seismic advantages on the West Coast or sourcing local timber for eco-friendly builds, this conversation highlights how mass timber can transform the industry.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Unpacking Trends in Mass Timber
• 4:19 Regulations and Incentives Driving Mass Timber
• 12:31 Maximizing Success With Mass Timber
• 18:01 Building With Mass Timber
• 25:34 Expanding Horizons in Mass Timber
• 29:44 The Future of Mass Timber

Transcript

Dean Lewis: 0:00

Mass timber, being that it is, you know it's manufactured to a building standard, it is in the International Building Code, it is special inspected, it is, you know, signed off, and then you know it is in a building that is insured. I mean that asset is so much more stable and reliable than, in my opinion, any other carbon offset that's offered out there that you could purchase. And so I think, once that market can be built and people can realize the potential of it, then again another avenue beyond the land use code and the code changes that will help put and grow the market for mass timber.

Brady Potts: 0:52

What advice does a world-leading project development and construction company, 135 years in the making, have to say about making mass timber projects successful? Well, today I caught up with Dean Lewis, the director of mass timber and prefabrication from Skanska, to find out. The Skanska team has worked on world-class mass timber projects across the globe, including the Portland International Airport expansion. So I asked Dean, what are you paying attention to in the industry right now, Dean unpacked building code trends, land use and jurisdictional incentives, and what overall project delivery success looks like with mass timber. So with that, let's get into it.

Dean Lewis: 1:25

Well, first, thanks for having me on the show. We've had a great list of guests here and appreciate the chance to talk more about Skanska and our role in mass timber world. Me myself, I'm Dean Lewis, director of Mass Timber and Prefabrication for Skanska, and I oversee all of the mass timber related work that Skanska has going on across the United States. For Skanska we're a little bit unique in the sense that we are a general contractor, we're a builder, we also have our civil team and then also we do development as well, and then we have our sustainability team that does consulting as well, and so we're a little bit unique.

Dean Lewis: 2:01

We also have a footprint specifically with mass timber, not just in the United States but then also internationally. So we've got about 23 projects in the United States, around 2.2 million square feet, but additionally in the UK, norway, sweden, czech Republic we've got an additional 35 projects for our portfolio and it's been an amazing opportunity to learn from those projects and learn from our project partners across the seas. And so we're a little bit unique also because in the Pacific Northwest we actually self-perform the installation of the mass timber, but then outside of that we look for other partners and relationships to complete the projects. We've got a lot of K through 12, higher ed, civic and public work, but looking for the market to grow and expand in other areas. And we've worked with all the major types of mass timber from NLT, dlt, and not just CLT and glulam but also MPP as well. So I'm very lucky to join the team and represent the hundreds of individuals that we have across the country working on mass timber projects.

Brady Potts: 3:05

Yeah, that's quite the team base you laid out there. It sounds like you guys have a lot of resources at your disposal specifically to put towards mass timber. We were kind of going through what we want to talk about and you had mentioned something about the growing trends for mass timber, like what the market's doing, what everybody's saying it's doing. But you had a little bit of a unique perspective on what might be happening behind the scenes with the growth of the mass timber market. Can you unpack that a little bit for me?

Dean Lewis: 3:27

Yeah, I think you know, maybe some people are, a lot of people are definitely aware mass timber kind of in the early days coming through had been pretty prevalent in the commercial office space and definitely with, you know, covid and interest rates and such commercial offices quieted down a little bit. I mean it was definitely it'll come back and we'll see those projects become prevalent again and be the main breadwinners. But we're seeing a lot of K through 12, a lot of higher ed, a lot of civic and public work and those projects are kind of really invigorating because especially K through 12 and higher ed, you know, having the chance to have mass timber in the built environment for students and teachers and staff and knowing that those kids are going to grow up and they're going to be able to see mass timber and be able to ask themselves when they get out in the built environment that hey, I know there's something better out there and I've seen it and experienced it and I remember these buildings from when I was a kid. That's pretty exciting.

Brady Potts: 4:19

I think part of the growing adoption across different building typologies is also what the code's doing. What are you seeing with the code and maybe even in the land use as well?

Dean Lewis: 4:31

Yeah, it's been an interesting development Mass Timber for the North American market. We got the PRG 320 standard, which I've been lucky and fortunate to be a part of and being able to see the development of basically CLT and MPP through that process and then get it adopted into the IBC. And then a lot of work by hundreds of individuals to educate and push to where we are now, where we have eight to 18 story prescribed options and in the 2024 IBC, which has already been adopted here in Washington State, we can now go to 12 stories type 4B fully exposed. And so that is kind of now coupled in trying to basically prototype certain products or building types to meet that code and try and find the sweet spot. And that's kind of the fun game that we're in right now.

Dean Lewis: 5:25

Couple that with the other interesting part that's happening where certain jurisdictions are putting incentives to decarbonize their projects and then there's actually certain jurisdictions which are adding specific language that creates incentives for mass timber.

Dean Lewis: 5:41

For instance, the city of Redmond here in Redmond, washington, has got some really progressive items for mass timber alone, where just the use of mass timber, having a mass timber building, increases your FIR by two, which is amazing. And then on top of that, the incentives are stacking or compounding, where, okay, you use mass timber and then, obviously, because you're using mass timber, you're going to reduce the carbon footprint of that project by upwards of maybe 40% or 60%. But depending on how much you reduce your carbon on that project, they give you additional FAR. And so those types of land use incentives are really what's going to drive, I think, the next generation of mass timber buildings, because you're creating an upfront incentive to where people before were kind of waiting on this backend incentive of, okay, we'll build the project, it'll be faster and we'll be able to sell it at maybe a higher yield or get a better rent. Well, now there's an upfront incentive that you can increase the building as well. So, yeah, those are really going to change things.

Brady Potts: 6:44

How do you see carbon pricing factoring into this? Across the nation, the US seems to be very anti-regulation, anti-carbon pricing, with the exception of California and then a few cities throughout the States. I mean Canada's a little bit farther ahead, but where are you seeing those kinds of trends and how do you think it's going to affect mass timber, I mean?

Dean Lewis: 7:03

yeah, if you talk to the companies that are out there doing this, it's kind of a burgundy market and it's in its infancy stages. But I think that's also the power of mass timber, because there's a lot of volatility in the carbon market and there's a lot of different carbon offsets that you can purchase. But I think mass timber, being that it's manufactured to a building standard, it is in the international building code, it is special inspected, it is signed off and then it is in a built building that is insured, I mean that asset is so much more stable and reliable than, in my opinion, any other carbon offset that's offered out there that you could purchase. And so I think once that market can be built and people can realize the potential of it, then again another avenue beyond the land use code and the code changes that will help put and grow the market for mass timber.

Brady Potts: 8:01

I agree. I think when I was getting spun up on carbon credits we did a podcast on this a while back now, but I guess I didn't realize there's different qualities of carbon credits. Right, you can say that you're doing XYZ with a forest in an unnamed country in South America, carbon credit. Something happens, it changes hands and all of a sudden they just clear, cut that sucker to make way for farm fields or whatever, whereas, like, if you're doing something up here in the States, you have that much more assurance on like, hey, this is in place and it's going to be here for 60, 70, a hundred years, whatever it is. And so there's that difference there. It's like that's on the incentive side. What do you think of us? Like that's the carrot. What about the like the stick side of things? Like some jurisdictions are like you must build to this standard. Do you think that that's going to open up more opportunity for mass timber?

Dean Lewis: 8:43

Yeah, that's something I think as well. I mean, california has their CalGreen initiatives in there and we're starting to see other programs in the Northwest take shape. Boston has their own program right now where they're benchmarking the carbon for projects and so, as certain jurisdictions start to take that on, yeah, just like you said, I mean that's now going to be enforced on projects and so it's really going to make design teams and owners ask the question of how are we going to build this building, instead of like, what's the cheapest way to get it done? Now, it's going to be okay. Now we have to navigate. You know, how are we going to build this building and meet the code requirement that you have to offset your carbon by a certain percent?

Brady Potts: 9:20

Yeah no-transcript.

Dean Lewis: 9:57

It make sense. And we were working with prefab wood framers and really we were looking to navigate. They were doing prefab floors and prefab walls and so they had these prefab floors, which were great, but they could only span 20 feet and they had all this hardware that had to be added to the floors once they put the floor on top of the prefab walls. And so we started to ask them well, hey, can we just do this CLT panel? Less hardware, it's quicker, we can span up to 60 feet. And we did a couple of small areas of projects like that in the Bay Area, especially where you have high labor costs, and they loved it. They were like, oh my gosh, this stuff's amazing. You have thinner floor sections, we can construct it faster, better quality, the floors don't creak, we're not worried about any of that workmanship. And so all of a sudden it kind of emblematically grew from there. All of a sudden it kind of emblematically grew from there, but still I would say late teens, we were still kind of like getting a project, especially during COVID times.

Dean Lewis: 10:50

I remember we were getting projects a lot because things were on hold and so they had projects that were concrete or steel and owners were calling us and they were saying hey, we got this project that's concrete or steel. Can you take a look at it and make it mass timber? And as much as we love that experience and the opportunity to look at those projects, as you know and you've had many others on this podcast talk about, that's not how it works, because you can't just take a concrete building and make it timber. I think the change now that's really exciting is we're getting projects that are, just, from the start, mass timber, and to have that opportunity and to optimize it for mass timber when it starts out as mass timber is a game changer. And so, yeah, really relish that opportunity to get involved early, especially with my background as an engineer. Look at the layout, look at the connections and there's been some other developments with other groups that are trying to automate the design side of things. Yeah, it's going to really help push the industry, I think.

Brady Potts: 11:42

One thing that I'm curious about. So mass timber is a little bit different than a lot of different materials. But, like in the actual project delivery process, it's not just like these people are this Lego piece and it plugs in here and you can like swap different Lego pieces in and out, Like you have to have like a team that's all on the same page. What do you think makes for like an overall successful project delivery?

Dean Lewis: 12:09

Overall success definitely starts with communication Getting a good team player that is in there and they're going to integrate themselves with the team and not just worry about. Everyone wants to make sure, especially in construction, they get their scope delivered and then they're out. But having a team in there that cares about the overall product and I think that's something that people talk about in this podcast as well is we're lucky to be a part of this community where everybody actually cares about the project. But beyond that, I think overall project success, especially from a GC's perspective and this is something that I saw early on was a lot of people are focused and maybe it's their first or maybe one of their first few mass timber projects, since they really focus on the timber component, which is key. I mean you need to pull that off successfully for sure and you need to have a good supplier fabricator maybe it's a third party VDC shop, make sure your trucking is in line, make sure your sequencing is.

Dean Lewis: 12:57

But it's actually all the other ancillary items that I would see on my projects and it still happens where you didn't think about how the facade integrates with the project or how's the MEPF system and how many penetrations are we going to get in there? Are we going to get 100% of them, or are we just going to bypass that and say, well, we'll do it on site, you know. And then other items like the stairs, the elevator, you know, is what's the roof? You know, their skylights, what's the parapet conditions, buttoning all that up. And what I like to say about mass timber is like creating a culture of prefabrication, to where everything is planned out, and the more you can plan out, you get at the site and you're able to deliver it successfully.

Brady Potts: 13:39

Yeah, that's a good answer. Are there specific things that, as a GC like you're, like you better get this right with mass timber?

Dean Lewis: 13:49

You know the shop drying process. I think the revolution for me this was a while back when I was at DCI engineers. We did project one and I did it with Scott McClellan who is now at Wood Incorporated, and that project we pushed the envelope. We did a multi-story MPP. I think it was one of the first in the country and it was a small project but mighty and Scott had the vision to do. We did a prefab wood walls with a prefabricated MyTech cold form moment frame system and then the MPP floor panels and Scott actually had them CNC the wall layout on top of the MPP panels. And then we also tried out dusty robotics and had them do a floor layout to kind of compare them.

Dean Lewis: 14:30

And anyways, I tell this story because it was eyeopening for me because once we got the panels out and we set that panel down on the wall panel, it was literally and I think I still have like a LinkedIn post of it it was within like a 16th of an inch accuracy. And that is what opened my eye to go holy smokes, like the shop drawing process and that VDC portion and making sure all that is coordinated ahead of time. I don't know if it's you know, you can fail in that portion. I know Mike Marshall from Kinzel has a really good saying of if you see sawdust on site, you've failed. I kind of like that. If you can plan out as much as you can ahead of time and get it to site and have everything going smooth, that's the win, because then you don't have to rethink it, you're not sending out RFIs, you don't have your crew standing on site waiting to cut something, and that's the success parameter. I think yeah.

Brady Potts: 15:20

Like you talked about coordinating all that ahead of time, finding the right fabrication partners, making sure that all that fits like where it should be. What about? What are some other like delay, project timeline, killers for mass?

Dean Lewis: 15:30

timber Spoke about it at the International Mass Timber Conference and water mitigation and basically building acclimation, and those are things that I think people push down the line a little bit.

Dean Lewis: 15:46

But if you can coordinate it up front in the specifications like what products are you using, when are you applying them, and then again getting much of that is done in the shop as possible, because it's going to be a controlled environment, because once you get out to the site, especially where I'm in Seattle and so in the Pacific Northwest, we get our atmospheric rivers that they call them, and it's going to rain.

Dean Lewis: 16:11

And so then having a plan on site of how to close that roof up because the roof one it's a little bit risky and builders risk insurance they talk about that and they ask about what's your plan for the roof and making sure that, if you're building it in a certain season, that you've taken the certain precautions. Because, yeah, if the roof does get wet and then you're trying to close the roof up, especially when it's in the November, december months, it's going to be very challenging and you can lose schedule. And not only that, then maybe you're getting water infiltration into the building and you're having to clean everything or come back and sand it and it just all of a sudden your schedule just starts slipping and something that you thought, oh, it won't be a big deal, um, all of a sudden starts to eat in the schedule and time and cost. Yeah.

Brady Potts: 16:52

What are some of the more successful moisture mitigation plans that you've seen put into place?

Dean Lewis: 16:56

Yeah, I mean this. This past year we did uh eight different projects, uh six of those in the Pacific Northwest. And it was interesting too because there's different climate zones. Like, we had a project out at Princeton, it was the 1986 Wellness and Fitness Center. It was a nail laminated timber, so we actually used a peel and stick membrane in the shop provided by Timmerman. We then got that up to the field and we had the crews out there do the splines with the same vapor shield and it's getting it on there as quickly as possible to mitigate water infiltration, especially on nail laminated timber because it's more susceptible to expansion and contraction. And then the Cincinnati Public Radio.

Brady Potts: 17:32

People that aren't listening and maybe they're not familiar with why that is with nail laminated timber. Can you give us the breakdown of NLT versus CLT?

Dean Lewis: 17:38

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's another thing when you're looking at water mitigation is what mass timber type? It is Definitely DLT and NLT or the fibers. The two-bys are orientated differently. They're vertical and so therefore, when the wood swells, that panel starts out at maybe a nominal 9 foot 10 and grows to 10 feet and or it can, it can shrink.

Brady Potts: 18:01

And we had a project in the Northwest where, yeah, we had a DLT panels and we were working with that because the panels were moving as we were getting different levels of moisture, got it, and so that on that NLT project that you were doing, can you pick up on that, the moisture mitigation plan?

Dean Lewis: 18:17

Yeah, and so that one. We had a peel and stick weather membrane by VaproShield. There's Slope Shields Plus, who's been a good partner for us on some projects, and that one worked out well. On another one Cincinnati Public Radio we used Sega's Wet Guard. That was a turnkey delivery by Nordic, and props to that team because the deliveries were sequenced flawlessly. I mean, they were having a couple trucks come in every day and installed that project in a few weeks, and that one it was a dry winter so they didn't have to fight much. But that doesn't mean that the team didn't hustle like crazy to get the roof on and make sure everything stayed dry. And then the other one I'll maybe highlight is our Center for Deaf and Hard of Hearing project which was out of our Portland office, and that project we went in the winter and we had a historic winter in Portland.

Dean Lewis: 19:05

that year. We actually just the past year we had about an inch and a half of rain every week and thankfully we planned for a robust winter. We knew it was coming and so we were able to sleep good at night, knowing how we had done everything that we could. We actually protected the columns with their wrap shield, that is, is permeable, has a high permeability, so water can escape if it gets in, but it also protects it. Um, and then also we again applied that peel and stick on the roof and then we had a couple different measures between tapes and liquid flash to kind of seal up the joints because, like I said, the rain just it doesn't care if you're working or not, it's going to, it's going to keep going.

Brady Potts: 19:44

Yeah, and then so outside of, like direct moisture, the other part of that equation is like building acclimation, like what do people need to know about that when they're working with mass timber?

Dean Lewis: 19:52

Yeah, I think, building acclimation. You know we've been working with teams across the country and then have had a great partner in Polygon who's helped us, and they provide the temporary systems to help acclimate the building. And in the Pacific Northwest, specifically, when we're in the winter, the timber, even if you've got it dry and you've got your enclosure starting to go up, you're going to be around 19% moisture content just because of the humidity, and so the challenge for us is to try and dry that down in a controlled manner. And so it's really acclimating the product over a slow amount of time to limit checking or limit complications with your finishes.

Dean Lewis: 20:29

If you look at Sanson's specifications or whoever you're going to use, they have specifications on what the temperature and how the wood should be, should be normalized, and so, yeah, that's the trick of getting that envelope up and protecting the timber. But then their job doesn't stop there. It's okay, now we have to acclimate the building, get that timber down to around 12 to 14% moisture content in a controlled environment to be able to switch on the permanent systems and keep everything going smooth. And so, um, it was, it was a process. Sean Aubrey, who's the superintendent out there, did a heck of a job kind of monitoring that and making sure we had we had alarms set up so you know if the temperature or relative humidity started to creep up we would get notified and we go out there and fix the temporary systems to put everything in place to make sure that you know it stayed on schedule.

Brady Potts: 21:18

Those are important things and they're different, like you said, based on where you are. Like the coast might be considered about too much humidity, whereas like if you're inland, they're like we need more humidity in. Here. It's like things are trying out too fast. That's different than like moisture locations, but like, are you seeing any differences between maybe like the more established West Coast, Pacific Northwest market and maybe like the newer East Coast and just like overall project delivery? Like what do people do in different on either side of the country?

Dean Lewis: 21:42

Absolutely yeah. I mean, it's something that when I was earlier in my career, I worked a lot on the west coast and did some work on the east coast, but now in my new position, I definitely do see a lot more projects on the east coast, and I think the project delivery methods range. You know, in the west coast teams will take the CD or construction documents a little bit further in terms of detailing, when on the East Coast it's more of a design assist process, and so the teams will get the documents up to a certain level and the design intent is there, but then it needs to be handed off to either supplier, who has in-house engineering, or a third party that will do the actual detailing for the components. And so it's just different considerations, especially on some of our bigger public projects that are more complicated, and making sure that the schedule allows for that, that handoff or the transition, because, yeah, if you don't account for that, it's kind of a surprise to people.

Dean Lewis: 22:33

We're at a hundred percent construction documents. All right, let's start shop drawings. Oh, no, no, no wait, we need connections designed, and so, yeah, there's just, it's a coordination piece.

Brady Potts: 22:46

What about? Everybody always talks about the locale of where the project is to like where the supplier is and the team and all that kind of stuff. But how are you advising your clients Like, hey, how are we selecting suppliers? How are we selecting fab partners? Like there's not, there's not very many of them, right, and they're kind of like all kind of concentrated in like one band and like the northern part of the United States and then up into Canada. But like, how are you advising like to put together those teams based on project location?

Dean Lewis: 23:09

Yeah, project location and then project scope and going back to that relationship, you know, do they manufacture or do they manufacture and fabricate? Do they have in-house VDC or engineering, especially on the East Coast, that would help us out? Are they willing to do a turnkey package for install? Is that something we need on this project? Is it a hybrid project? Is it all mass timber or is it like CLT over steel, which maybe requires a different install team and considerations? Those are all pieces, I think, of that puzzle. But to your question on the sourcing which we'd like to approach clients and we're seeing a lot more of this is you know, the Portland Airport was an amazing project 2.6 million board feet sourced from five different suppliers within a 300 mile radius. I think that will be kind of the holy grail of locally sourcing for a long time to come. I mean, hopefully there's other projects that are going to outdo it, because I think it's an amazing story and it it's a testament to mass timber and kind of the forest to frame, you know, initiative. But we're seeing a lot more of that from owners and we saw it at like six, six, 19 ponds, I know over in Atlanta kind of did the same thing, and so now people are thinking more progressively.

Dean Lewis: 24:19

We actually had a K-12 school come to us and they wanted to know, hey, can we utilize the trees that are on site, harvest these and put that timber back into the building? And really it just comes down to coordination and timeline. And, yeah, you can do that kind of on the low end. Or maybe it's living building challenge which is a really high ask. And that's where, like our Candida project that we did at Georgia Tech, where we actually used locally sourced and salvaged wood to actually build the NLT panels that went into that project. And then maybe, outside of the certification, is the owner looking for that local sourcing story or do they care about the fiber type? And what are the making sure that, based on their goals, then we're providing them with the options that are suitable for the project?

Brady Potts: 25:11

I want to change gears a little bit and I want to talk about, kind of like the industry as a whole and so, like we're still the mass timber industry goes compared to the building industry, like still like really, really young, especially here in North America. So there's people are learning about it every day. There's some people that have been doing it for a decade plus. How do builders come together to advocate for further mass timber adoption and awareness? Like, what are the key things that builders need to be talking to their clients about?

Dean Lewis: 25:34

I think it's, and this was kind of a thing I know Woodworks did a great program early on, where they were, you know, at first it was kind of architects and engineers, we need to know how to design this. And then it was like, okay, we need people to build this. And they did, you know, a contractor series, education series, where they would bring contractors in and installers and kind of get that going. And then now they're kind of focusing on owners and builders, risk insurance and there's. You know, they got a lot of efforts. But I remember the that time when we were trying to get contractors to basically just be comfortable in pricing mass timber projects and I think that is one thing that there just needs to be more education in the industry and as we do, more projects we'll get more comfortable with.

Dean Lewis: 26:15

And it's something that I know I talk about a lot is like the holistic building approach. Like if you're just looking at the frame to frame you, you're going to struggle, but if you're looking at your savings and foundations, your lateral system, your finishes, your interiors, your speed of schedule, and then potentially, you know, like we talked about other options or advocacies, for timber is like you know, are you having land use incentives Are there? Building code incentives Are there, you know, on the back end for the developer, you know, are you going to get a higher yield? And you write that in a perform run? If you can do it holistically which is part of the reason I'm excited about Skanska, because we got the development side, the GC and the self-perform If you can look at it holistically, then you really start to see the advantages of mass timber.

Brady Potts: 26:59

Do you think that that just comes from repetition, or is there like a resource or resources that people can go and like get up to speed on at least as much as you can, without real world practice?

Dean Lewis: 27:09

Yeah, I think you know listening to folks that are on shows like this Woodworks is a great resource. I know there's, you know, third-party consultants out there that are doing as well. I think you know for Skanska, one thing we've been doing is we have our own internal system called Metrics, where we benchmark all the pricing for all of our buildings and so, as we are doing more, we're going to grow that out and be able to really dial in the pricing, and we're also trying to pilot a program where, basically, we're going to also measure the carbon versus the cost, which I think will really be interesting as we get into clients that are focused on ESG or tech clients that are really trying to reduce their carbon footprint.

Brady Potts: 27:48

Yeah, I think what you just said, like having that database of information to draw informed decision or to make informed decisions off of, is really key Cause I think one of the worst things that can happen is a developer owner comes in. They're like, however, that they found out about on their own or somebody on the team introduced it to them. They're like, all right, let's do this mass timber thing, and then they have a bad experience. That's got to be like the worst outcome, because, one, they're never going to do it again, and then, two, they're going to call our friends, whereas, like the opposite happens, they're like, yes, we've done 30 of these projects. Here's all the data to support our decisions and the information we're giving you, or you can go if somebody's like well, I think it's going to be this. Those have two very different probabilities of outcomes, so I applaud you guys on putting that together. Well, thank you. Yeah, moving forward, what do you think is in store for Mass Timber and Skanska specifically?

Dean Lewis: 28:46

I mean overall, I see we've done a lot of projects in the Pacific Northwest and we've seen growth on the East Coast. And I will say in our backlog, right now we're starting, the East Coast is starting to parallel the West Coast and so I see a lot more activity on the East Coast. I see mass timber kind of like we talked about before, moving into different product types. I mean we're getting inquiries now on everything under the sun from, you know, police stations, courtrooms, churches, I mean the like. I mean we are getting all types of structures that are mass timber, which is really exciting Because I remember, you know, back in 2012, I took a trip up to Canada part of their BC Wood program and at the time, you know, they were kind of getting to that point where mass timber was starting to be done on all types of different structures, and so I see that kind of the growth curve for us and I mean that's something else I think about because the market in general we're still pretty young and mass timber. In a way we were trying to cannibalize ourself in the early days because we were under 85 feet restricted, and so we're kind of trying to fit mass timber into light frame and light frame is super efficient and I think so.

Dean Lewis: 29:57

What's exciting for Skanska is now you have this opportunity in the eight to 18 story range, which is really where we operate, even though we do do smaller projects in the 30,000 square feet range and we've done projects like Cincinnati Public Radio and the project out of Princeton and such but to look at these larger buildings that you can start to really aggregate the success of mass timber because you've got more repeatability, you're going to get a faster install, especially for us on the West Coast. The structure is going to be lighter. The new code implications are going to increase the seismicity for sites and seismic requirements so all of a sudden having a lighter building is going to be far more advantageous. So from the West Coast and high seismic zones, I think in the eight to 18 story range you are really going to start to see a lot more mass timber buildings.

Brady Potts: 30:42

Well, that excites me. I'm a big fan of mass timber buildings and I'd love to see some more of them. Yeah, We've talked a lot about the GC side of mass timber. What makes it successful? How are you delivering this project on time, on budget, All of those things We've talked about where the market's going, code incentives, all that kind of stuff. Is there anything else that you think the mass timber industry needs to be telling the world?

Dean Lewis: 31:03

The one goal I have is that trying to make mass timber on an equal playing field as other materials, and our buildings are not going to be all mass timber.

Dean Lewis: 31:15

We're going to have foundations, there'll be lateral systems, there'll always be steel, and so we need all materials to be greener, if you will, or more environmentally conscious.

Dean Lewis: 31:27

But I think if we can start to also have the education process with customers and clients to realize that the benefit of mass timber not just from the cost standpoint and obviously I know you on the podcast talked a lot about biophilia and those things point and obviously there's you talk, I know in the podcast talked a lot about biophilia and those things but then having that forest to frame concept and like what is this actually doing for you know the communities that are building these, having the managing the forest, producing the products, and then also you know these buildings and the longevity of them.

Dean Lewis: 31:58

I mean right now we've got a lot of conversations with the builders, risk insurance industry and we need more buildings so they can have more data and the goal is to basically make this a safer product. Like the one story I think I give is it was back when PV Hall had their incident at OSU. But from that the PRG 320 committee met and kind of went through some kind of emergency measures to put forth a better QA and QC standard in the PRG 320, which basically just made CLT and other structural composite lumber products more robust building product or building project, then I think it's going to enhance the overall building quality that is given to the public and then concrete and steel hopefully keep up with that and basically you're just increasing all folds for all people.

Brady Potts: 32:57

It's a great answer, my friend. I love to hear it. Last question where can people find and connect with you?

Dean Lewis: 33:02

Yeah, just if you look up Skanska Mass Timber, we have our own CERO site. I'm also on LinkedIn and Instagram and all the social media platforms and I look forward to connecting with anyone who has questions or wants to learn more.

Brady Potts: 33:14

All righty. Well, we'll link all that down below for anybody that's interested in getting in touch with Dean or Skanska, and with that I'll let you get out.