Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts
The "Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts” is a podcast hosted by Brady and Nic, two industry advocates for the field of sustainable construction. In each episode, they interview thought leaders, industry powerhouses, and true supporters of the sustainable building movement. They cover the entire sustainable building spectrum, from forest management to final construction of buildings.
The podcast is designed to educate and inspire listeners about the benefits of Mass Timber. Mass timber is a sustainable building material that has several advantages over traditional materials like concrete and steel. It is strong, lightweight, and renewable, and it can be used to build a variety of structures, from small homes to large skyscrapers.
In addition to discussing the benefits of Mass Timber, Brady and Nic also explore the challenges of sustainable building as a whole. They talk about the importance of forest management, the need for government support, and the challenges of educating both the public and the building industry about the benefits of sustainable building.
The Mass Timber Group Show is a valuable resource for anyone interested in learning more about sustainable building. It is a thought-provoking and informative podcast that will leave you inspired to make a difference.
Here are some of the topics that have been covered on the show:
- The benefits of Mass Timber construction
- The challenges of sustainable building
- Forest management
- Government support for sustainable building
- Educating building industry professionals about sustainable building
The Mass Timber Group Show is available to listen to on a variety of platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and YouTube.
If you are interested in learning more about sustainable building, I encourage you to check out The Mass Timber Group Show. It is a great resource for information, inspiration, and action.
Mass Timber Group Show: Sustainable Building Experts
Mass Timber Secrets: How to Build Smarter, Cost-Effective & More Beautiful w/Kathy Berg of ZGF
What makes mass timber both beautiful and brilliantly functional — and how can architects design buildings that showcase wood, streamline systems, and stay on budget? Join Kathy Berg, partner at ZGF Architects, as she shares the inside story behind the Rocky Mountain Institute (aka "the Swiss watch of buildings") and the PAE Living Building, one of the most sustainable office buildings in the world.
Learn how early design decisions can make mass timber cost-competitive with steel and concrete, why designing for 500 years helps unlock smarter material choices, and how mass timber is poised to transform everything from childcare centers to healthcare facilities.
Kathy also shares the latest innovations in mass timber design, from folded CLT sawtooth roofs to biophilic strategies that improve human health — proving that mass timber isn’t just a material, it’s a smarter, healthier way to build for the future.
ZGF Website: https://www.zgf.com/
Kathy Berg LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathyshalooberg/
Looking for your mass timber community? Attend the 2025 Mass Timber Group Summit in Denver Co - Aug 20-22nd!
Absolutely, and we want that to happen, right, you know, as an industry, I think if everybody was just slapping up office buildings in the same way and saying this is as good as mass timber gets, then you might be right about that fad question. You know we might get tired of wood, but I'm continually excited to open magazines and see projects when I'm out traveling, where people are doing things in a new way.
Speaker 2:How do we balance the use of mass timber and create beautiful, healthy, resilient spaces and also ensure it's cost-effective and material efficient? Well, today's guest, kathy Berg, is gonna help us answer that question. She's a mother of two and an outdoor enthusiast that just so happens to have a full-time architecture problem. Kathy's a partner at ZGF, and ZGF is an industry leader in mass timber, with groundbreaking projects like the Rocky Mountain Institute, portland International Airport and the PAE Living Building. Kathy took me through balancing expression with efficiency, the innovative practices she's seeing in the industry and where she sees the mass timber heading in the future.
Speaker 2:But before we get into the podcast, if you're looking to level up your mass timber IQ, maybe meet some experts and leaders in the industry and then even have a little fun while you're at it. We're hosting the Mass Timber Group Summit this August in Denver. Go to our website and get on the wait list. Tickets are going to go live in February and we do expect to sell out. We even have a couple open speaking slots and exhibitor tables left. So if that interests you, head on over to masstimbergroup. So with that, let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Sure, you know, I've had the good fortune to work a lot across a lot of different project types and every project and every client, I think, requires a specific response that addresses climate, it addresses place, it addresses program type. Within that, when we start to think about a mass timber structure, one of the first questions we're looking at is how do we want to showcase that structure? How?
Speaker 1:much will be visible, how much will people be able to come up and touch? But that isn't the end of what we have to solve for in a building. The other elements we have to solve for are really the hundreds of systems that need to run through the mechanical systems fire suppression, electrical, and so when I think about expression, it's not just the poetics that wood can have, but it's also how do we begin to integrate those other systems in a really elegant way, and for some clients they're fine seeing some of those systems. For others they want to be really integrated into the mass timber. And some of the projects I've been most excited about are those that really find a great balance between expressing the wood and housing the systems in an innovative way.
Speaker 2:Can you tell me about a project that you think really nailed that combination?
Speaker 1:Surprisingly enough, it was one of the first that I ever worked on.
Speaker 1:It was the Rocky Mountain Institute in Basalt, colorado.
Speaker 1:It was a small building, about 15,000, 16,000 square feet, and we used about 9,000 square feet of mass timber in the second floor. So not a huge mass timber building, but the first chance that the team I was working with we had all had to really investigate what we could do, and the design for it actually ended up being a two-way system. So we had nine-inch deep flat CLT beams that were crossed with a three-inch or a three-ply CLT and that created a cavity in between that we could run everything else. So we had electrical conduit, sprinklers, lighting sensors to test the building and it really became what we call the Swiss watch. It was accessible through a wood slot screen, but when you were in the space as the user, you really just had this beautiful expression of this taut flat wood ceiling and 80% of the mass timber was actually exposed. So it was a fun project to think about and ever since then, every project after that, it's like okay, where can we go next? What can we do with it? On the next one?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, before we get into like where we can go next, how did you like first get into this mass timber space?
Speaker 1:I think it found me. I don't feel like I realized how much I loved wood until I had actually worked on several projects. I've been in my career for almost 27 years. One of my very first projects at ZGF where I've been for all 27 years was a residence hall at Reed College that used glue laminated timber for their lounge spaces. So it was kind of the first time I had a chance to get in and understand how glulam worked, the different levels, the qualities, how the connections could come together. So that was kind of my first touch on a version of mass timber.
Speaker 1:I later worked on a valve manufacturing facility in Emeryville, california, that we renovated for Clif Bar, and it was all wood trusses. Cliff bar, and it was all wood trusses. Um, which, yeah, you know, when you, when you get into renovating a wood building that somebody built, you know, 50 years before, 70 years before actually I should get my timeline right Um, you really start to understand the flexibility of wood and the durability of wood. And we were able to put photovoltaic systems on top of the wood trusses. Um, we were able to, you know, develop system integration through the webs, the wood trusses. We were able to develop system integration through the webs of the trusses. That worked great, so it was just kind of another chance. So every building that I worked on after that had some component of wood in it and I became so enamored with wood that in COVID I built a shop in my garage just so I could build furniture and work with it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so funny. I did the same. I did the same thing. I actually I I've always loved building and working with wood, uh, but during COVID there's not a ton else we could do, and so I actually think I got all the tools and everything to build a shop and actually just built a crib for my daughter, um over the past couple of weekends, and it's it's my, it's my pride and joy project.
Speaker 2:It's like all of the little finishing details that kind of like came together. But I digress. So when you're talking about like working with wood and you kind of became enamored with it as a as an architect, as somebody who's designing the experience for people that are coming into these buildings, what are you looking for in your process to make people like experience the wood on the level that the owner is looking for? Because you talked about you know you have the experience versus the efficiency, but how do you make sure that mass timber is kind of forward or maybe that's not even like always a focus?
Speaker 1:It isn't necessarily always a focus that it's forward. It isn't necessarily always a focus that it's forward, but I think if you're really designing a mass timber structure effectively and go back to this question of efficiency right, why build a beautiful mass timber roof and cover it up if you don't have to because it's beautiful? So, at the same time, not every space is going to see the timber if you still have mechanical systems to distribute. So a great example, I think, is at the San Antonio Spurs training facility. Man, it was a really fun one to work on. It does have a concrete structure underneath which has some parking, but the majority of the building is a single level that is, mass timber and glulam beams and columns supporting a mass timber roof, with the occasional masonry wall which was really tied to the architecture of the region.
Speaker 1:On that project we had a ton of systems to distribute. We had pools in a training facility. You have medical type spaces. You have high levels of airflow that you need to get to the gym spaces and the workout spaces. Locker rooms have to have special ventilation could really showcase the wood. And then we came up with areas that we would end up putting in ceilings coverage places for all of those systems to run. And so what you find when you go in the building it's almost 100,000 square feet of a wood roof. You move in and out of these moments of a really high level expression of wood or a really minimal one, and I think in a way, it's better if it was all wood all the time. You might not get that same play of seeing how the wood plays off, of the light coming in down a corridor, or the play of light that hits the beams that comes into the courts.
Speaker 2:Totally and on that, that all wood all the time or all mass timber all the time, I certainly don't subscribe to that. But I've I've heard maybe outside or adjacent AEC professionals talk about hey, this look, this feel of mass timber maybe it's a fad, maybe it's a design trend that in 20 years nobody's going to want to look at wood anymore. What would you say to that?
Speaker 1:I would say we've been looking at it for a couple thousand years so, and I use still go back to you know Japanese temples and we still see wood and you know the interior of churches in Europe and I'm not tired of seeing it. So I'd like to think that we're going to continue to find ways to be more expressive and I have to give a huge shout out. I mean, I have some colleagues and some peers in the industry doing some pretty remarkable things with wood. I did not personally get to work on the airport project. I kind of more enjoyed watching the team work on that from a very close distance, but I'm not going to get tired of walking in and looking at that undulating roof for a long, long time.
Speaker 2:And for those listening, we're talking about the PDX airport in Portland and if you guys are, if anybody listening is going to the international mass timber conference. Perhaps this might be the first time that you get to fly in and experience that. I certainly haven't been there yet, but I am definitely looking forward to flying into that airport.
Speaker 1:I'm hoping that there will be a large contingency coming in for that conference who won't be disappointed at spending any extra time in the airport if they end up there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yes, nobody loves boring droll long stays in an airport, but I don't think that's going to be the case with PDX.
Speaker 1:There's going to be a lot of people walking through looking up.
Speaker 2:Yes, but anyway I'm glad that you kind of shared that same philosophy about like is wood a fad. I have a very similar answer to what you said and so I'm glad I'm not just a lay person pulling that out of nowhere, like the design professionals at the top of their game think the same. So moving more towards like the future of mass timbers. We kind of talked about how you got in some projects that really excited you. What are you seeing that's like new and innovative that you're working or integrating into your projects?
Speaker 1:You know, it's exciting to see new mass timber products continuing to be studied and emerged, the great work that they're doing at Oregon State University and in the Tallwood Institute. It's always exciting to go down there and see what we're going to have to work with next. We've also had a couple of opportunities on projects to test mass timber in innovative ways. So I currently have a project with the sawtooth roof that is folding the mass timber and using CLT in a beam condition which we had to test and prove that it would work before we could get approval for it in the drawing set. Exciting to see that that test did actually pass with flying colors and that's getting installed right now. So really exciting that the again it's an exciting expression. It's used in a really efficient way. It brings beautiful North light into an office space. So those are the kinds of things that I'm getting excited about when we're solving things and trying things in a new way.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and like that specific application, do you think that that's going to open up other architects to use it in a similar fashion?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Absolutely, and we want that to happen right as an industry. I think if everybody was just slapping up office buildings in the same way and saying this is as good as mass timber gets, then you might be right about that fad question. We might get tired of wood, but I'm continually excited to open magazines and see projects when I'm out traveling, where people are doing things in a new way. And you know the other thing I would say one of the things that we do on projects now, when we start a new mass timber project, is we pull all of the successful details and the unsuccessful details from previous mass timber projects. So we have this great library of photos and details and descriptions of what, um, what worked and what didn't work, so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's some column based details. There's some different ways you can attach beams to columns. When you use the best of details from a previous project, it gives you more time to innovate on doing something new, like this sawtooth roof that we're putting together.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And earlier in your answer you talked about hey, maybe if we're continuing to do the same cookie cutter style thing in like an office building, maybe that does become a fatter go out of trends. But also like the, from a developer's perspective, certain building use cases are. You know, they ebb and flow, like if the commercial market's down, maybe the residential's up, or vice versa. Like where do you see like mass timber kind of spreading across different use cases and what excites you?
Speaker 1:You know what's really interesting about mass timber is if you walked into a mass timber office building right now, you know PAE, great office space. I actually got to work in it for four months myself when we were renovating our offices, but I could live there too. I mean you could move in and set up a kitchen and put your bed in the corner and it would feel absolutely wonderful to be in as residents, whereas if you think of a traditional office with two by four lay in ceiling and bright fluorescent lights, mm-hmm. Last place, you want to actually set your dining room table and have dinner. So I'm excited that the versatility of wood moving across different project types is. It just really lends itself to different ways of being used. So we've I've worked on projects everywhere, from small office buildings, sports buildings, like I remember.
Speaker 1:Like I mentioned, we've studied a childcare facility out of mass timber, did a full design. Unfortunately, the COVID timing put it on hold, but I am really excited that we could develop a childcare facility fully out of mass timber. You think about kids and how much time they spend on floors and climbing up walls and really close to materials and buildings, and to me, focusing on healthy building materials for our most vulnerable populations is just critical. Similarly, we are focusing and talking a lot about how to use mass timber in health care. Obviously, infection control is something you've got to solve for care. Obviously, infection control is something you've got to solve for, but we've done. There's a great white paper that our teams here at CGF put together to understand how you would bring wood into health care and how it could actually help with recovery and reduce stress for patients.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Before we had hit record we had talked about another architect out of Canada that's kind of put out a book on doing that. His name is Ty Farrow and that book for anybody that's interesting is Constructing Health. But it's all about how does your brain and body interact with the environment around you and how does that directly translate into like your health, your mind health, your physical health, etc. And then on the child care front, also before we were recording, we were kind of sharing some stories about child care. I'm really excited one to have child care facilities that have this biophilic response.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful, I'm okay with my kids being there, I know it's safe, how mass timber can be folded into like more rapidly deployable childcare facilities. Because I know in my own town during COVID I think it was something crazy like 65 or 70% of all childcare facilities closed and never reopened and so that's just created like a rapid or, excuse me, a tremendous dearth of childcare spots. So even if people can afford to pay for the childcare there's literally at capacity. And so you need more physical locations, as one certainly, but then the operators as well, to run those, and I think, at least in some jurisdictions like they're also restricted, like where you can put child care facilities and and then they have to be designed and constructed to a certain standard. So I'd be really excited to know if there's any, or to see, rather, the development of maybe like a rapidly deployable, or at least a quicker, more deployable, kind of like standardized design for childcare facilities. That's also beautiful, that also uses mass timber, because that's something I think the entire country, and definitely like North America, needs right now.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I was just talking to a client who is in a remote location with an incredibly expensive cost of living who is looking to do just that, to actually pre-manufacture child care facilities. Obviously mass timber makes the most sense and bring those in, set those up and create child care for people that it's out of reach for. To your point, it's incredibly expensive. I think the interesting thing about childcare and mass timber is it's not just the kids that you care about, but the hardest thing in childcare is to get great staff, the people taking care of your kids. You know you're handing over your most precious asset.
Speaker 1:They also benefit from being in a mass timber care. I don't know about you, but when I was doing child care facilities they operate on such a cutting edge you know thin margin that they're often not the most exciting physical spaces to be in. So if you could give a space to staff where they have access to natural light and those kids have the ability to, you know, be calmed by the presence of wood and the shapes and the movements which there's studies that Terrapin, bright, green and I'm sure Ty and others have done that show just being in a wood space can lower the levels of cortisol and the stress that indicates stress in your body.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. There's a, the, the one child care facility that we're really gunning for. Once they ever have space. Uh, kind of does that exact same thing. It's not a mass timber building. They renovated a building but in the renovation they use so much exposed wood, like they got rid of all the the steel, plastic, whatever's, from furniture to bookshelves to just like you know, your, your drywall finish, et cetera. It's all. There's a ton of wood in there specifically for that, and what's really interesting and this is getting out of mass timber and architecture.
Speaker 2:But you talked about the employees specifically. So they have a very unique model where they basically we have a, we have a local organization in here that takes in a lot of refugee families, but specifically refugee women, and this child care provider takes them in, gives them employment, helps them learn English, get their driver's license and then bring their child or, excuse me, their children into the facility as well, and so it's kind of like a little community of people raising their own kids, but also the community's children's as well, and they get exposed to a bunch of different. A little community of people raising their own kids, but also the community's children's as well, and they get exposed to a bunch of different ethnic traditions, practices, food even, and then like different forms of play and they anyway I'm a huge fan of this kind of model that we're describing and so maybe, after we get off the podcast, you can tell me a little bit more about that, that person that you talked about trying to tackle this, because it's something near and dear to Nick and I's heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:So but on. So. So we're talking about, like you know, maybe some innovative, cutting edge, frontier type stuff. I know I certainly have thought this when I'm talking about building a mass timber school in my community is it's? It's new, it's exciting, it's innovative. That must mean it's incredibly expensive or maybe even out of touch, and you work a lot with clients who come with those same, similar assumptions. How do you address those?
Speaker 1:Probably has been the biggest next to code challenges has probably been the biggest challenge to help clients recognize that we can actually afford this. Because so often if you just lay a steel building up next to a mass timber building and you compare structure to structure only, you're absolutely going to see a higher number for the wood structure in most cases not all, but in most and so what we really try to do is talk about the whole building case and how we change our design process to get mass timber into the project. I would tell you, the earlier we can make the decision that we're going to use mass timber, the more money we can save on the overall project. A primary example of this for the lab project that I mentioned to you a bit ago that we're working on, there are a lot of penetrations in the floor of a lab building. You've got water, you've got electrical power data, and when the master is being manufactured and it goes through production, those holes can be drilled almost for free with the CNC machine. We just have to have them located in a drawing and they get cut.
Speaker 1:But if they have to do that in the field, it can be $400 to $1,000 for every penetration. So the sooner we know we're doing mass timber, the sooner we can make decisions about the penetrations in the floor. That dollar, that cost, goes significantly down. Similarly, if we can focus only on designing to mass timber, we can make the most of exposing the mass timber and we can eliminate a lot of other building materials from the finished product. That's another fantastic way to bring the overall cost of the building down. So we've found that if a client comes in with a certain level of trust and willingness to explore this with us, we've been able to bring mass timber buildings in comparable to steel and concrete and in some cases we've even gotten lucky and they've come in less expensive because of, you know, timing of the market and just the availability of wood versus steel and concrete.
Speaker 2:So if somebody's got those assumptions like, hey, I want to do something really cool, but I'm afraid it comes with a really big price tag you're saying you can help them figure that out.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and we'd start with really taking you to buildings that we have done, having you introduce, you know, introducing you to clients that are living with those buildings. You know we're not trying to sell anything. That isn't going to feel right for somebody, but most people, once they've been in a mass timber building, you know they understand the difference. We just did a topping out for a mass timber project, had a large group of people in the inside space. If it would have been a traditional concrete and steel building, it would have been a very, very, very cold January day but it would have been kind, very, very, very cold January day, but it would have been kind of bleak and dark inside. Instead, we were in this forest of columns and the wood just glowed and people were in a good mood and there was just a lot of conversation about how different, from the ground up, a mass timber building feels to be inside and there's a value to that that I think you understand once you've spent time in one.
Speaker 2:For sure, and I think another value that the industry as a whole is coming around to embrace, but is still not maybe as prevalent as I'd like it to be, is so you have the value of, like you said, like the emotional, the physical, the wellbeing value, your construction cost value, but also there's also the value to like the building's life cycle right, especially if you're if you're building a community building, an institutional building. A long-term minded developer is building a building like you don't want to rebuild your buildings after 50, 60, 70 years and you have a lot a really good focus on like drastically expanding that timeline. Can you tell me about your philosophy there, then, maybe how Mass Timber ties into it?
Speaker 1:You know, when I first started in the architectural profession, I worked in a number of different offices across the country. I was an intern at the University of Cincinnati. So we did, we had a co-op program and in one office I worked on some retail work. In another office I worked on some housing for seniors. When I got to ZGF, it was the first time that I had the chance to work on university buildings, and I remember hearing this notion that university buildings were special because they were designed for a 60 to 80 year lifespan, which is a long time. But in some of those other projects I was working on a retail project. You might figure that's going to get ripped out in five years. So you don't think about using or worry about using really durable materials, because the tastes are going to change. And I found, you know, thinking about things in a longer time frame made a lot of sense. People make better decisions when you're thinking about well, I don't want to re-roof this, I'm going to use a nicer roof, I want the exterior facade to really be durable, so I'm going to pick brick or I'm going to pick, you know, quality metal panel For the PAE living building.
Speaker 1:It was the first time as a group that we started talking about actually I should back up. It was really the Rocky Mountain Institute project. We started talking about making decisions and spending more money on elements of the building that would last forever and for parts of the building that would see a lot of technological innovation. You know, maybe you spend a little less upfront on those, knowing that you're going to be able to get, you know, more efficiency later on. So the structure, for instance, you would spend a lot of money on the structure and the envelope because it's going to be there forever, but maybe the furniture systems inside you spend a little less because they're going to improve or the photovoltaic system might improve over time.
Speaker 1:When we got to the PAE living building, paul Schwer one of my favorite people to work with of all time, the president and founder of PAE at the time when we were working together he said why don't we design for 500 years? And he really started kicking around this idea of what does it mean to design a 500-year building. And it doesn't mean that the building is going to sit for 500 years and you never touch it, but it means that you design it in a way that you can maintain it, you can continue to cherish it and treasure it, and so we started this conversation of what are the decisions we need to make to put a building in place that we hope in 500 years somebody can still find to be beautiful, valuable, and they want to continue to maintain it, and I personally wish I could get all of my clients to begin to think that way. You really make much better decisions long term when you're thinking about that kind of lifespan.
Speaker 2:Tell me about, tell me some of the specific choices If you're if you're making a building that's targeted to last 500 years. What are some of the decisions you're like, hey, this, this is what we need to do.
Speaker 1:So things that are really difficult. Recladding a building is really difficult. Changing the foundation of a building is nearly impossible, right, it just gets so expensive. And if you think about buildings that have been torn down, it's often because they can't handle seismic loads or they were built without insulation and it's too hard to go back and insulate them. So I think it's thinking about what the climate is going to be like long term. It's thinking about investing into a really good quality and repairable envelope.
Speaker 1:So the windows, right. Don't put in the cheapest windows, those are really expensive to replace. Don't put in the cheapest windows. Those are really expensive to replace and you're going to want to put. You're going to want to save the money on the energy that's going to allow you to put that money somewhere else, into your business or into a different kind of upgrade. So it really comes down to thinking about the cost benefit analysis of every material that you're selecting on the building and in some cases maybe looking at not over investing in materials you don't need and in some cases maybe looking at not over-investing in materials you don't need.
Speaker 2:So one of those components, I imagine, that is basically impossible to replace would be, like the structural elements itself, and that's where we're generally seeing the majority of mass timber being used. If I'm coming from outside the industry and I'm saying you want to use wood to build this building, you're telling me it's going to last 500 years. I might have some doubts about that. How would you address somebody that's you know, maybe a hearing about mass timber or hearing about the longevity of it for the first time? What would you say to them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd probably take them to some of the 2000 year old wood structures that are around in the world if they would let me take them on a trip.
Speaker 1:But short of that, you know again, it doesn't mean that you can ignore a building or neglect a building. But mass timber is, you know, traditionally protected when it's a structural member on the inside of the building and there really shouldn't be any reason. It's quite light. It works in the Pacific Northwest where you have to worry about earthquakes. It actually works quite well in an earthquake because it's ductile and it's light and it can move.
Speaker 1:So you know, I think it's really time has been. Time has proven that mass timber can last with care, and you know that's probably the best testament out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's a good answer. So talking about, like this whole building system, designing for longevity, what are you seeing as an architect for complementary or maybe even competitive components to mass timber? That really bring our entire discussion kind of under one roof. So you're talking about sustainability, longevity, like fit for the client, the place in the space. What other systems and materials are you seeing unfolding into your own designs?
Speaker 1:You know we also. We always talk when we think about a really highly sustainable building or a resilient building right, which is the key to what we all want. I think the first thing is getting the bones right, getting the scale of the spaces right. I go back to that renovation project I talked about years ago. One of the reasons that I go back to that renovation project I talked about years ago, one of the reasons that it was so easy to renovate a warehouse, is that it had long column spans. It had a high base space. There was room to do any program in it that we needed to bring back in. So, thinking about how do we give ourselves a little bit of the right scale and the right amount of space for a building to be timeless? And then we often talk about what are the first things when you get into selecting material that will have the biggest impact.
Speaker 1:Structure hands down, like you mentioned, it's not going to change over the life of the building. So mass timber is just such a win from the standpoint of flexibility, of carbon, of beauty, of you know. Look at this picture behind me For those of you on the podcast you can't see it at PAE All of the structural columns and beams and the cross laminated deck are visible inside the building and it's beautiful. The second thing is really beginning to look at minimizing the amount of concrete we have to use. Second thing is really beginning to look at minimizing the amount of concrete we have to use.
Speaker 1:It's a huge component to any mass timber building, probably more carbon wrapped up in the concrete. Certainly it was for PAE, but for most buildings there's still, you know, the concrete's the biggest issue. So we're we spend a lot of time looking at optimizing concrete, reducing the greenhouse gas embodied in that, and we're making some real strides on that front. And the third I would say is, in the envelope, just making really smart choices about. You know, even a brick color. A brick that's fired at a lower temperature can last just as long but has less carbon in it. A metal panel on a project we were looking at actually had less carbon than the brick. So we ended up prioritizing one over the other. So there's some, I think there's a way of thinking about the entire building and how the systems go together that can be really fascinating and interesting for us. So mass timber is a component and then you have to make sure you do everything else right too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's can't get fixated on like that one line item. You got to look at everything and like a holistic perspective, absolutely so going through like your incredible history about what you guys are doing, what you're working on. We talked about different trends that are going in the market, like what are you really excited about next? Like what's next for Kathy? What's next for CGF?
Speaker 1:You know, for me personally, I have gotten to work on so many different project types but haven't yet gotten to work on a mass timber housing project. I would love to bring together what we were talking about before affordable or middle income housing with an amazing childcare facility and a fantastic you know community amenity. I think that would be the kind of project that would, you know, test another set of skills, another set of challenges that we need to solve for and potentially prefab on top of that would just be, you know, that's something that I would love to be involved with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, if there's anybody listening that can help Kathy get to that that checkbox, certainly reach out. I'll link your contact info below. I've got a few questions before we wrap up the interview. I'm going to kind of wrap and fire them at you, if that's okay. Sure, all right. So you're doing incredible things. Where do you go to learn? Where do you go to get up to speed on architecture in general, maybe mass timber specifically, like what's your go-to?
Speaker 1:I learned so much from my consultants and collaborators. Honestly, greg Kingsley, one of my favorite people that I've met more recently, just sitting and listening to him, and his perspective is super valuable. Paul Sch um, collaborator that I really enjoy hearing the perspective of, so to me that's probably the primary way, um for inspiration. I probably go to, um, to literature, um just as a way to think differently about our world, cause I think there's a freedom in fiction that we don't get in our everyday lives.
Speaker 2:Do you have a favorite book?
Speaker 1:I do the Overstory by Richard Powers. Richard Powers is probably one of my favorite authors ever. I just started reading Playground and it might overtake the Overstory, but I'm not done yet, so I've got to wait for that.
Speaker 2:I'll add those both to my reading list and I'll let you know how it goes Before we ask our last question. How can people reach out and connect with you or ZGF? So definitely check out our website at ZGFcom. All right, We'll link those down below. So last question If you had the power to instantly change or improve or modify any system or way of thinking that exists in your industry right now, what would it be and why?
Speaker 1:Gosh, can I destroy capitalism when it comes to the way that we design buildings? I guess it really comes back to that 500-year question or the longevity of how we think about our profession. For so many projects, the first capital cost is what drives decisions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're making the best decisions for our environment, and I would love to see us switch to a mindset where we're taking a lighter footprint on the earth, we're living in smaller spaces, we're doing more with less and we're thinking about that long-term life of the structures we create.
Speaker 2:That's a great answer. Well, Kathy, thank you for joining me today. I appreciate you sharing all your perspectives and I look forward to talking again soon.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
