Avoid the Mass Timber Budget Blowup w/ Mason Brandt of Woodcore Engineering

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Budgets are tight. The client wants exposed wood. And somewhere around 90% DD, someone asks if you can just swap the steel grid for timber. Mason Brandt has seen that question blow up more than one project.

Mason is the president of Woodcore Engineering out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania — a specialty engineering firm focused on wood and timber. He's worked on north of 25 mass timber projects, and on more than one of them he's been the person who kept timber on the table when the budget said otherwise. In this episode he breaks down why the timber decision has to happen in SD, not DD — including how species selection affects structural capacity, bidding leverage, and interior finish, the difference between design assist and delegated design, and why getting a fabricator in the room early is one of the most practical things a team can do to protect schedule and budget. Real examples from a train station in Maine and a school addition outside DC. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What do you think design teams need to have in their minds from the get-go to make sure that they start off on this right path?

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Yeah. In the beginning, right, it's really important to flesh out in that SD phase, are we committed to timber or are we looking at a different avenue? There have been a few projects that we've looked at where we get through 50%, close to 100% DD phase. And the question pops up of, hey, we have the steel building. Can we do it in timber? Right. They're not really apples to apples comparisons. They're not plug and play, switch them out. Steel grid is unique from a concrete grid, and a timber grid is different than a steel and concrete grid.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

The architect loves it. The concept's approved. And then the DD estimate lands in your inbox, and the numbers twice as much as anybody expected. That's where most mass timber projects die. Well, today's guest, Mason Brant, has seen that firsthand. On one project he was bought into, the budget came back 40% over. His team went back through the structure, rotated panels, cut beams, downsized columns, and eventually got it back into a full timber building at a number that the owner could live with. Mason's the president of Woodcore Engineering out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and he has experience on over 25 mass timber projects. And on more than one of them, he's been the person who kept timber on the table when the budget said otherwise. Here's what we get into today. First, why timber has to be decided in SD, not DD? Timber, steel, and concrete all have fundamentally different structural grids. By the time you're well into DD, switching isn't a design decision anymore. It's a complete redesign and somebody's paying for it. Second, why species selection can blow up a project that's already been designed? Not everything in the NDS supplement is commercially available. And unlike steel, you can't always get competitive bids on mass timber. The wrong species choice can leave you with a very short list of manufacturers and no leverage on price. And last, why getting a timber specialist into the room before DD is the single biggest thing that you can do to protect your schedule and your budget. Mason breaks down design assist versus delegated design, what each one covers, what each one costs you, and why the fabricator needs a seat at the table very early in the process. If you're working on mass timber, designing it, engineering it, building it, this one's for you. As Mason puts it, clarity is kindness. Get the right people in the room early, and a lot of those expensive surprises just don't happen. So with that, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I am Mason Brandt, president of Woodcore Engineering. We are a specially engineering firm based out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. My background spans a good range of structural engineering consulting, working in a variety of projects, uh wood, uh concrete, steel, from mid-rise construction to infrastructure projects, um, you know, rehabilitations, existing facility reviews, kind of a good mix of structural engineering, uh generalist kind of things. And um about uh January of 2023, I had the opportunity to join Quality Buildings, uh Timber Frame and Wood Frame contractor in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, start in a structural engineering department for quality buildings. And then uh on in July of 2025, we took that engineering department and spun it off into its own standalone entity called Woodcore Engineering. Our focus is wood and timber engineering design, uh focus on constructability, getting it right from the start. Uh what I tell my team is you know, when you see buy others on the drawings, that's us. Our goal is to make things, make things happen in construction, get things built between construction means and methods, delegated designs, specialty timber engineering. Uh, we can even serve as the EOR if it if it makes a good fit for the project. Um and uh other other things about me, I've been a volunteer firefighter and a part-time career firefighter for a little over 20 years now, um, outside of Lancaster PA. And with that, right, I get a different perspective than a lot of other engineers, designers um on the design end, where we have to deal with the buildings and built environment when natural disaster strikes, um, during fires and other emergencies, right? The different challenges that not many other design professionals have to think about um on the tail end of these projects, right? Um, so as part of that, with the mix of expert experience I have, um, I teach building construction programs to firefighters. So trying to blend, make that bridge happen between uh the design realm about what's being designed, what's being built, and the people who have to work in those buildings under not so great situations.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, yeah, no, I I appreciate that background. Um, how many Mass Timber projects have you and the team worked on?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Oh, let's see, we're probably north of 25 at this point, right? Either in uh you know the construction piece or um in the design phase, right? We're we're north of 20, I think. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

So you guys have you guys have had you know dozens of uh projects kind of like run through, and I think that's what we're gonna unpack a little bit today is like what have you guys learned, you know, through those projects, uh specifically on the engineering side, uh, that really like makes them successful or not, right? And like what to watch out for, uh, what to make sure that we're doing right, just kind of like that checklist of do's and don'ts. And so I think the first question we're gonna start off with is like when it comes from moving a mass timber project, you know, from concept to design to construction, you know, we're talking about doing it precisely and with cost control to make sure it gets done successfully. So what are some of the high-level key things that you think are important to get right with mass timber?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

High-level key things, we have to find a good partner that fits a project, get a good team together, um, and have the project designed with consciousness of all phases, right? Not just to get the material um bid correctly, but through a through a production facility and then through out to the field. Right? These are finished pieces, finished elements. Things have to go together. There's not a lot of opportunity for field modification. So we have to get it right before it hits fabrication, or we're gonna have some uh interesting challenges out in the field. Right. And field delays can can kill project timelines, kill project schedules, and and burst the budget.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

And so what do you think, you know, if we started at the beginning, where do you think the difference between mass timber, steel, concrete, whatever your building is gonna be made out of? Like, what do you think design teams need to have in their minds from the get-go to make sure that they start off on this right path?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, in the beginning, right, it's really important to flesh out in that SD phase are we committed to timber or are we looking at a different avenue? Um, there have been a few projects that we've looked at where we get through 50%, close to 100% DD phase, and the question pops up of, hey, we have the steel building, can we do it in timber? Right. They're not really apples to apples comparisons. They're not plug and play, switch them out. Um steel grid is unique from a concrete grid, right? Um, and a timber grid is different than a steel and concrete grid. So if we're if we're entertaining the idea of timber, it's important we flesh that out well before we get to DDs, well before we get to CDs. Um if we have to try to make a timber project go with the steel grid and we can't compromise on the building program, um, we build in a lot of inefficiencies and the timber becomes really, really expensive. It's not a case we can't do it, but um, in those cases where we're trying to make timber perform like steel, that's where we see these timber projects cost well in excess of what they could.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

What if somebody doesn't, what if they're not committed to timber, but they're like, hey, I want to, I want to keep this as an option. What do you tell people to do that?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I'd say if you want to keep it as an option, it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right? There we have a plenty of case studies where we see a lot of complementary materials used. You might see a steel frame with CLT decks, you might see some accent walls, some glue lamb arches. Uh it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right? Timber, it takes a lot of coordination, but timber does play well with steel. It does play well with concrete and masonry. It just takes some intentionality and some detailing. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

And if we're getting, if we're talking about you know, initial steps when we're setting out, like, hey, we're gonna be either committed to timber or we're keeping those things in mind that you talked about so that it's not impossible to go timber, um, where you where are you generally bringing in like the timber expert here and like who is that timber expert to make sure that these things are going right?

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, if if we're down that road, a great place to bring in someone as a design, like a good example is design assist, right? If if the design team, uh if their first few timber projects, right, they're not super confident or they might want a second opinion on how to really execute this well, a great way is to bring someone in with especially focused in a design assist effort uh where they can advise and consult the design team, the owner's rep with real-time price comparisons, right? If we're if we're making decisions that affect the size, the volume of timber, um, getting some real-time price feedback and a design assist effort is a good way to help manage uh potential cost increases, uh, add some cost containment and some certainty to the prop to the project.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

And so when you're bringing in this person, like what are the things because because you are that person in in this case, or at least you can be, right? What are conversations that you're having with members on the project team about like the nuances, the details, like when we're talking about accessing cost or making sure that we have cost containment, like what specifically are we looking at?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, big question there is you know, where do you what kind of material are you looking to use? Are we talking a European product, North American product, um, southern pine, Dug fir? Those kind of questions really matter in a timber project compared to a steel project, right? And I I give the example. Uh, when you when you do a structural steel project, say you pick a W8 by 10 steel beam A992, that's something that a structural engineer can put on a drawing. When it goes out to bid, you can get competitive bids. Most people, uh most steel manufacturers, fabricators, uh, and erectors can source that uh pretty easily. There's a built-up network and it's apples to apples comparison, you can get competitive bids for that. When we compare that to timber, not every material has five or six different manufacturers that are local enough to the project to competitive bid it. And even when we look at those available product grades, um, you know, there's a there's a document out there called the NDS Supplement. Um, for those who aren't familiar with the structural engineering aspect of it, right? And that gives a list of uh Glue Lamb materials, grades, layups with different material properties and strengths based on the wood species. Not every Glue Lamb in that document is readily accessible to the marketplace. Um and even say if you look at uh three different Southern pine manufacturers, one might make a 20F grade material, another one might make a 24F grade material. And even in that, they have different layups, combinations um based on how you want to use that beam or column. Um so to really get an apples to apples comparison, those two materials have different strength capacities. And with wood, the the strength, a lot of cases is based on the area of the of the timber, right? So if you're in that if you're in that position where you're comparing a glue lamb manufacturer that makes a 24F material versus a 20 F material, that 20 F material might be a little more uh cost competitive in a dollars per cubic foot scenario, right? But you compare that to the 24F, we have a higher grade material, you might need less timber volume to achieve the same structural capacity. Right. So if our dimensions are fixed, if we're if we're contained at a certain point with a maximum column size or a maximum beam depth, we might not get a competitive analysis between these two manufacturers. We might be stuck going down one road that might not be in the best interest of the project, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Okay. Got it. And so like when when you're talking to the architects here and you're going through all this kind of stuff with that, like what does that mean in terms of like the way that they're actually designing this building? Does it what what do they have to keep in mind to adjust for these nuances that can like keep that cost, keep that variability, keep that choice open that you just talked about?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

We have to keep those the high-level big picture items in mind, right? Is there a certain area we want to focus on, a showcase area, showcase piece, right? Floor-to-floor heights. That's a critical dimension area we need to be concerned with. Um allowable areas of the structure. Those pieces of information, as we um adjust the timber size, adjust the beam spacing, um, and evaluate the different structural materials that are available, right? You might have a you might have a project where the architect loves a look of dug fur, but it's on the East Coast. We have to ship that finished product from the West Coast in a lot of cases, right? So those shipping costs offset might switch us into a European product or a southern pine product, right? Um it's it's the combination, it's a it's uh what do they call it? Arch archestructural is the is the right term for a lot of these timber elements. It's a visual finished structural element. So it's not just how does the material perform that if impacts what we want to use and how we want to spec it.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Okay. Um, you talked a little bit about uh, you know, like supply chain sourcing, like if you got an East Coast project, but you want West Coast Doug Fur, all that kind of stuff. Like, how do you walk through, you know, outside of like visually, uh, what you're looking for? Like, how do you walk through like choosing quote unquote like the right species um or the right supplier, if you will? Like what what do you consider and what do you bring to the team and say, hey, here's the options, here's the pros and cons on like regional sourcing, et cetera?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

That's a great question because it's not always the closest geographic manufacturer that could have the best package for the project, right? Um we have we have Canadian vendors, we have US domestic vendors, uh, there's a very well-established supply chain that comes from Europe, and we're also seeing newer manufacturers coming on board all across the globe. Uh, Woodworks has a great resource that uh can give insights to different manufacturers that are coming online, what they offer, um, where these projects are happening, right? A key piece is trying to understand what the client wants to look at for the project. We we looked at one uh in the central Pennsylvania region where uh they were back and forth between a European spruce project or a European spruce versus a Dugfur versus a Southern Pine. Uh, and that one, the architect and the interior designer had two very different approaches to how they wanted to use the space. The architect wanted to highlight the color of the material, whether it was Dugfur, Southern Pine, to bring warmth or um to really highlight the material itself in the space. And the interior designer wanted more of a uh like a Canadian spruce or Europe, a European spruce product product, which is more of a neutral background, uh, so they could highlight other aspects inside the space. Right. So that's at a high level where we want to start. Um, most timber projects we look at, especially in the US, the case studies are coming from the Pacific Northwest. They're in Doug fur, uh, because Doug fur is local to the Pacific Northwest. Supply chain is very well established out in Washington, Oregon. Um, so we have a lot of the conversations where an architect, if it's their second or third timber project, all they know and reference is what Doug fur looks like. So we try to give them other options as to, hey, here's if you're looking at a project on the East Coast, here are some equivalent structural performing products that might be a little easier to source, might cost a little less money. Um, but if you want Doug fur, that's still a viable resource, a viable option.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

What about the economic factors? Because when you and I were chatting before we hit this podcast, you talked about like buy America funding, et cetera. Like how do how do those factors play into this decision?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, that's uh that's something that has come up as a headache for us a few times now, where um not all the funding for these projects is always fleshed out when we start down the design road of picking a species. Um when we get up into New England, we've looked at two projects now where they were initially uh specified as a Canadian product. Um so we went the the design team went through a full design, issued construction drawings based on Canadian product properties. And once the product, the once the project uh went out to bid, the owner got some buy America funding. And as a caveat to that, you had to use U.S. domestic source products. So it didn't fully eliminate um spruce, but now we had to pivot and propose alternate materials in the Southern Pine uh that would that would work for the structural performance. And in some cases, we had to do some redesign work on resizing beams, resizing uh panels to validate that a southern pine product uh met the structural demands that the can that the Canadian spruce product looked for before. Um so those things do come up as we go through projects. We want to finalize funding. Uh, there are a lot of projects that once they get beyond the design team, funding sources change. So that's uh that's a pain point that we've had to navigate a couple times now, switching out materials. And then also when you change from a Canadian spruce to a southern pine, we go from that neutral background material to something that's a little more yellow, right? So does the owner buy into that new look? Or do we need to do something to the material to alter the look of material, right? All things that come up as pain points.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

So uh I guess let's talk a little bit about like scope of engagement, like when you're working with different partners. Like, talk to me about the difference between design assist and delegated design in this context and like what you can and can't do in each group, and like maybe where you'd recommend people lean into.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

That's a great question, Brady. Um, design assist is a great avenue for an engineering team like us to come in and support an established design team and an owner direp, give them real-time information on uh how different changes to design, sizing of members, species uh affect the dollars and cents, right? And we can give real-time feedback as to hey, if you want to use a bunch of exposed steel hardware for your connections, this is the price impact compared to can we adjust the timber sizes a little bit, maybe reduce the steel. Um, if we're looking at um the grid, the grid of the buildings, another good example, right? If we can adjust the grid in some cases, either move column lines, shrink column lines, um, adjust beam spacing, optimize for a CLT panel, reduce some blue lamb in some cases, right? Those have real dollars and cents impacts that we can give real-time feedback on. Uh, and we can help the design help the design team navigate a few things. We're looking at a project in New Jersey right now that has uh some impact with uh tidal water coming through, and how does that impact this the timber material that the water might be exposed to? What treatment options are out there? How do we find a good product and a good timber product that will give the building longevity and hold up to those elements? Those are some real-time feedback pieces we can get to the design team. With design assist, though, our team would not be responsible for providing a PE seal on anything we do, right? We provide engine we provide information for the engineer record to review, analyze, um, and the EOR is still responsible for developing those drawings and putting their seal to the project. We we contrast that to delegated design. Delegated design, uh, the design team lists out specific elements that the contractor or subcontractor is responsible for providing a design for. A lot of times that uh evolves into connections. Um you might have different timber manufacturers that have different uh flavors and how they want to do their connections. Some lean a little more heavy on steel, some uh want to use a little more uh wood-to-wood connection, right? So a good a good approach if we don't have a specific vendor on board early in the design phase is to delegate those connections out, right? The EOR still provides the performance criteria, the loads, and other information for the manufacturer to design those connections to. Um, and they still have the opportunity to review that. But we have a second set of eyes on the project in a delegated design scenario. Um, if we are the delegated designer, we would put our PEC on those calculations, submit them to the engineer record for review and approval, right? Um it gets a little more collaboration with the manufacturer. Um, it takes some risk off the design team, shifts it to uh the construction arm of the project. Um, and we have a little more overlay in review, making sure we really meet the connections and that connections are constructible. Um, sometimes we run into issues where the connections we get on a project, you you just can't build it. Whether it's sequencing, whether it's um availability of product. Um, that case of you know, a good example is um if we have a Buy America project, you it goes all the way down to hardware. You still need to source US domestic hardware. And sometimes we get a set of drawings that are detailed for uh European or uh overseas hardware vendor, right? Yeah. So in a delegated design approach, your timber vendor, your specialty you partner with provides that connection detailing for. review and approval.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Got and so like the the projects that you've worked on, do you see any specific path whether it's one or the other in terms of like better project outcomes? Both have both have their place, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Both have um good pathways to success. Uh the key part in both of those is we have the people that are going to be manufacturing and putting the pieces together have um have in have collaboration buy-in on the process. They have some say before material hits a site on how things are being put together, how they're designed. The design assist realm we shift a lot of that early on into the project where as we're as we're working through design considerations, you're you're incorporating people who are um going to be working in the field putting it together to give feedback on hey, uh you know that that sequence is just not going to work well. Or here's a more constructible connection. Not that what you're proposing is wrong, but um you know a good example is trying to eliminate a lot of field welding. Field welding with timber is not something we recommend. So if we can shift to connections that are bolted, right? It seems like it's something really simple, but if you're navigating 300 field welded connections on a project compared to something that's bolted that's just an assembly piece, you have people putting a bolt through a hole tightening a nut those are little things that might have a small impact but over hundreds of connections they add up to time, they add up to labor and product savings.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I guess since we're already on the subject of like constructability and like in the field, what specifically do you do or do you recommend other people on the team do um with the folks that are actually going to assemble this because like you you guys have a little bit of unique insight having like the QB side of things like working hand in hand. Like what have you what have you guys learned on the design side from the guys in the field that you kind of try to fold into standard practice now on your projects?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah. And that's that's a great perspective we've had um where we get to see some of the pain points uh from the guys in the field now we can incorporate into some design. Uh a big thing that we see is tolerance, right? Pay attention to tolerances, install sequencing, right? If piece A has to go in before piece B, how do we brace it? How do we support it? There's cases where can you actually get the bolt to fit if you have two or three beams coming in together on a connection right um those are all things that we pay attention to when we're doing delegated design work when we're doing specialty engineering work thinking the whole way through the finish line a lot of times I'm working backwards. Right? It might look good on paper, it might look good in a Rabbit model, but if the guys in the field can't put the pieces together, that's not going to work.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Uh talk to me, I guess, about some of the more recent projects that you think fully embody like the principles that we're talking here that you've been involved with.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah so we're working on a train station up in Maine. That was one where we had to uh do some navigating on material and then based on that right some of the initial designs that were that were using a Canadian product once we switched to Southern Pine um you know the the the values of the timber have changed. So we need to validate that the glue lamb and the panel still work for the loading that's required. The capacity of connections right a screw uh something as simple as a screw doesn't have the same value in every case it has the same steel values but a lot of what goes into a screw capacity is what you're connecting it to. So if you're if you're designing a screw connection for Doug fur and now you need to switch to a Southern pine the the connector capacities change. So our patterns might change our as edge distances might change the look and feel of the connection in some cases with exposed connections are going to change. That project also we had to navigate it's it's very much like uh that one is very much like building with Legos. It's a small project with lots of pieces there's a very specific sequence in which the pieces have to go in place because we have some cases where um a glue a glue lamb beam is supported by a CLT wall panel and those two have to support a floor panel that gets a wall above, right? We're also navigating around steel it's already in place. So how do we get the pieces off the truck around the railroad um working with the windows the time we have to work with the railroad getting them set in place right so that project has a lot of field challenges that we've tried to bring back um into the design approval phase before we have to navigate those things in the field. We've had some conversations about you know we're we're front loading a lot of these field problems as much as possible. What kind of time savings do we have for the guys in the field if we can figure out the solution back in the office where if we have the same problem that hits the field, there's they're job stop problems. You know you you come up with a problem, you have material that might be swinging 20 feet in the air we have to set it down, we have to requisition, we have to make adjustments, right? How many hours of productivity lost do we have for something that we could have picked up back in the office that's a constant conversation we have right for all of our customers, all of our partners, right? As much as we can pull those field problems back in the office and find solutions ahead of time, that leads to a lot of good outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yeah I bet and and all of that obviously leads to like uh schedule savings or adherence costs, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Is there any of the projects that you worked on that you can point to and you're like, yeah, we did XYZ and it made it uh fit within the budget where otherwise wouldn't have yeah so we're we're looking at a uh we're looking at a uh elementary school edition down in the DC area uh where initially we came in this project uh we gave some initial budget numbers based on some conceptual information very soon to practice right you know you give some initial budgeting and as a project went from SD phase to DD phase the project budget almost doubled right um the the and a lot of things go to you know macroeconomic price price swings but also as we look at that in the beginning we come up with what our typical timber sizes are um what we can expect and a lot of the cost is driven by fiber volume right with with wood projects and timber projects the the cost of material is driven by fiber volume so when we took we went from initial look uh some of the columns had upsized for the DD phase um we had a lot of beams in the project that were to give a consistent architectural look right so our team uh once we once we got that first number back the client was pretty surprised at what they saw right but as a design assist effort we were able to provide uh fairly quickly within a week or two um some suggestions on hey can we rotate the panels to span a different direction cut out some beams cut out some girders right we're reducing fiber we're also reducing hardware um we're reducing piece count you know and the fewer pieces that the timber erector has to install the faster their install goes right also with the column um if you switch from a 12 by 12 roughly a 12 by 12 to a 10 by 10 column that's a significant fiber savings in a lot of cases with columns we're sizing the columns to meet a certain dimension maybe for a beam or a girder not truly for the column's load capacity. So if we can make some adjustments to the column sizes adjust the beams and girders to match the column sizes uh that can translate to a lot of savings in GLULAM and through that process we were able to bring that number back down about 40% from the high point. Right? So we went from a conversation of hey timber's way too expensive. We've completely blown the budget here. We need to look at other options is there anything we can save and keep in timber to we brought it back to a full timber structure with a little bit of a price increase from that initial budgeting but we kept it a timber project. And that's the goal there's been a trend we've seen the market the last five, 10 years where um we get this initial budgeting and then it spikes up and then that's where a lot of timber projects die. In that DD phase we switched to steel we switched to concrete in addition to some fantastic case studies that Woodworks and some other partners have put together for projects on the East Coast, projects on the West Coast, we're seeing that trend too where yeah there's this there's this kind of spike in price as the design team fine tunes what the client truly wants in the space and we can give that real time feedback on how do we fine-tune the structure as well and keep it close to budget or within budget.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Are there any like precursor conversations or or things that you talk to clients specifically about to like uh set expectations and like kind of like map the journey in timber about how it might be different than steel and concrete or like hey this this might exactly like you said like you might get a very high number back first we can work that backwards from the beginning. Like how do you how do you set and meet expectations with the client?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

That's always a goal right is to keep those keep the client expectations um with something we can we can meet. Sometimes we aren't afforded that opportunity though, right? Depending when we get brought into the project if we're brought in at CDs that's kind of here's where here's what it is or we go back to the drawing board kind of conversation. The earlier you bring on a partner the earlier you bring on an expert um you can get that feedback and help inform your decisions to try to eliminate any of those wild swings through the project. Those things do happen, right? But we're trying to minimize how many twists and turns this project goes and still reach that destination. So yeah we if we're involved that once the base concept is outlined, we can give some feedback to start with to the to the engineer record, hey, here is a here's a timber grade in species where if you need to go out and get competitive bids, you can get decent competitive bids based on designing to this grade and clearly lay it out in the drawings. What is concrete has to be a minimum performance standard and what is flexible that's always a question that comes up whether it's in design assist or delegated design if the drawings and documents don't clearly say hey what what is a definite what is a minimum what's mandatory compared to these things are optional. We're looking for different ways to make this and fine-tune this from the specs to the drawings to the details right clarity is everyone's friend if uh clarity is kindness right that's a great a great thing in these projects where if we can have clarity on from the design team clarity in the documents on the construction end that translates well to cost savings and cost containment and so if you were if you were sitting on stage you know helping the next generation of like timber designers navigate this whole process maybe they've never even touched a mass timber building maybe they're working on their first one like top three things that you're gonna like leave them and impart with them what would they be? Uh number one, truly understand the material wood and timber are a great resource it's plentiful um but it doesn't behave the same way the steel and concrete do. Right. And a lot of coursework for new designers, new engineers, we focus in school on steel and concrete because that's a preponderance of what structures are built, right? We can take a lot of the same concepts from steel design and apply them to wood. You know basic beam behavior is basic beam behavior but we have to truly understand the material and how the material behaves because um wood depending which direction the grain is and how you apply forces to it it behaves very different. Short-term loading long-term loading um serviceability all those things are different than steel same high level concepts but the application is different and also understanding that pace of when you look in your your table of the NDS not everything that's listed there you can actually get you can actually even competitively get right there might be one manufacturer that makes said glue lamb another thing really is designing with the end in mind right a lot of times we get caught up in the in the beginning design you're just trying to get stuff on a piece of paper get stuff to a point people can bid it well what are they actually bidding to right have we provided enough information where we can make educated bids educated decisions on how this building is going to perform um where we need a source from right that's that's a big piece to it too. And then thinking about the field condition right thinking about the people who are actually going to have to put said pieces together a lot of people that are designing buildings today have never had to swing a hammer. We have we and that's that's truly a a blessing when we do have people that have some field experience that are designing buildings but not everybody has that opportunity to go out and experience what building a structure is like even you know working on home projects we have a lot of people that are great engineers, great designers, but they also don't even work on their homes, right? So um designing things with an understanding of how people are actually going to put them together is critical and crucial. There are a lot of great designs that unfortunately can't be built just because we can't make the connections work, um the geometry doesn't work it looks great in a model, great on paper, but things don't line up in the field.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

No, that's good advice. And then I would say uh on the other side of like things to do, or do you have like a top list of like absolutely do not do this?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Let's let's start with to do um if you have the opportunity go see construction as it happens. It doesn't matter if it's your project if it's somebody else's project um go out as much as you can get in the field talk to the guys who are putting things together um try to understand how things go together look at the drawing and then look at that condition that was actually constructed. That's some of the best learning I've ever done was being heckled by guys in the field. The first time I think I was a I was an engineer for six months I got to go to Tennessee to check out a warehouse and the guys who were doing the framing uh they were heckling me about which way I ran the joists in the deck. Right. So I think no matter what, I was the engineer that showed up and they were going to heckle me even if I got it right. But um that's that's crucial is just if you're a new engineer, new designer, go out and see projects in construction. Things not to do, we'll have to come back to that one.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Well I'll uh I'll maybe I'll put words in your mouth uh based on the conversation like don't stay silo don't not engage with the rest of the team don't actively be proactively asked asking questions reaching out to people um and don't ignore the differences between wood and steel or concrete or whatever. Yeah um those are great ones again and I'll I'll I'll put a little star and asterisk next to those in the show notes make sure those are mine and and not yours in case I said something dumb. But this has been great Mason I appreciate kind of like unpacking everything for us um from an engineer's perspective. We've been watching some of the projects you guys are doing I'm excited to see the ones you just talked about kind of come to life I know potentially we'll have some pictures up here as you're talking so people could see them. If people wanted to learn more about you, uh how you can help them in this journey like where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah you can check us out on our website uh www.woodcore.com can also find us on LinkedIn um and you know we're more than happy if you have a project if you just need some advice to point you in the right direction um you know we don't we're not we're not lawyers here right we're not charging by the minute um there's still that saying we're you know we're in that environment where all ships rise with the rise and tide um the more we can do good projects and execute timber well the more everyone will benefit right it doesn't hurt to ask for help it doesn't hurt to ask for advice um what we want to avoid is it to kind of what you're what you alluded to there Brady is staying siloed and not asking questions not validating what we're doing because if we do have a few bad projects people aren't going to say well hey that was a bad design they're gonna they might lean toward hey timber's not a good option for this and that might not be true. So yeah we're more than happy to help um if there's questions recommend things you want recommendations on feel free to reach out all right we'll link that down below so people can reach out um thanks for joining me Mason appreciate you imparting some wisdom and I'm sure we'll see you around thanks Brady