Getting the Full Mass Timber Look Without the Price w/ Mike Lipke of Torzo Surfaces

Hybrid mass timber is often the smarter structural choice. But it comes with a trade-off most teams just accept. The exposed steel beam, the ductwork overhead, a finished building that doesn't quite look like the one we had in mind. 

Mike Lipke is the president and owner of Torzo Surfaces, the only U.S. manufacturer of Thin CLT panels. Thin sheets of cross laminated timber, available in almost any species, made from new material or remanufactured scrap. He's been making them since 2011, well before most people in the U.S. had heard of CLT. In this episode Mike breaks down what Thin CLT actually is, where it solves problems for design and build teams, how it gets made from both new wood and salvaged scrap, and where demand is actually coming from. Plus how custom Oregon white oak panels for the Portland International Airport were built partly from MPP scrap pulled off the same job site.

If you're exploring mass timber for your own projects, one of the first questions is often "who actually makes the materials?"

To help with that, we created a Mass Timber Producer Map featuring 39 North American producers and fabricators. You can explore manufacturers near your project, see the products they produce, visit their websites, and connect directly with them.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's a four by eight sheet, three-quarters of an inch thick. So much thinner than the standard structural CLT that is out there. Most of the time it's cladding something, cladding a wall. In the mass timber world, a lot of it is covering up concrete and steel, mechanical HVAC ducting, things like that, covering it up with a CLT panel so that it either looks like a CLT beam or it might look like a laminated beam. So you don't need to pay for CLT construction. Just get a panel that looks like CLT on the face, but it's just plywood backers, that kind of a thing. And save a lot of money in the middle of that wall.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Hybrid mass timber is often the smarter structural choice, but it comes with a trade-off we're all forced to accept. Maybe it's the exposed steel, the visible ductwork, or a finished building that just doesn't quite look like the one we have in mind. Today's guest has spent over a decade making sure that you don't have to. Mike Liftke is the president and owner of Torzo Surfaces, the only US manufacturer of thin CLT panels. Thin sheets of cross-time made timber available in almost any species, made from new material or remanufactured scrap. And he's been making them since 2011, well before most people had even heard of CLT. Here's what we covered it. First, where thin CLT solves problems for design and build teams. Beam rafts, ductwork covers, large wall fields, and a strategy that delivers the CLT look without having to pay for full CLT construction everywhere. Second, how it's made. Any species built to look exactly like the structural CLT already in your building, in a manufacturing process that can start with new wood, or pull those salvage beans from the boneyard and turn them into finished panels. Then, how it all came together in the Portland International Airport, where custom Oregon white oak panels were built partly from the scrap material pulled off the same job site. And last, where demand for these solutions is actually coming from. And it's not who you'd expect. And it says something interesting about where Mass Timber is headed. If you're designing or building mass timber, this one's for you. At a high level, what is thin CLT?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Thin CLT is in our world are CLT panels made that are generally three-quarters of an inch thick. That's our standard thickness. We can make other thicknesses, but uh most of them are three-quarters of an inch thick. So it's uh like a lot of plywood products, you know, similar kinds of thicknesses. We make them the same dimensions, four foot by eight foot panels as a standard. But we can make uh specialty sizes as well. And uh matter of fact, we did we made a bunch of specialty panels for the Portland Airport project. Um uh but uh generally it's uh it's a four by eight sheet, three-quarters of an inch thick. So much thinner than the standard structural CLT that uh that is out there. And one of the things that we battle with a little bit is that people call thin CLT different things. They call it micro CLT, they call it nano CLT. Uh we like thin CLT just because we think it's a little bit easier to understand exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Um okay, so we talked about what thin CLT is at a high level. I'm really curious how it's made because I know that you guys do like new and recycled. So like let's start with like the new. Um, how is it actually made?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, most of the time we're taking standard dimension lumber, so 2x4, 2x6, uh, what have you, any species, and we're resawing it into thin layers and then gluing those layers together, those strips together to form sheets, then laminating those sheets together in a CLT construction pattern to make a CLT panel. Do you guys do uh like a vacuum press, or what do you guys do three press? No, it's just a cold press uh situation. So uh, but we can press you know a lot of panels at one time. So we can press you know 12 or 15 panels at a time, and uh and that gets us the the production volume that we need. Got it. And uh and so the neat thing about CLT is you know, you can put some defect in the core uh so we can utilize the material a little bit better, uh, definitely get the look on the face uh and the back that the customer is looking for, and uh a lot of options there for how we slice and dice that material and turn it into a CLT panel.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

So when you're talking about like assembling the panel, you know, maybe a little bit more defective material visually on the inside, so you can face the material with whatever you want and then you can back it with whatever you want. Correct. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

And so we even we mix species in some cases, uh, depending on what the customer wants. We definitely uh mix grades of lumber. So you might be building a Doug fur building uh and uh but you don't want a lot of knots or uh seasoning check or things like that in the face of your panels. We can make sure that none of that gets into the panel face. It can be a perfectly clear face if you want a clear face. Uh and then we put those defects in the core and the back. We're still utilizing the wood better and uh by giving the customer the look that they're asking for.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Got it. Now talk to me about the the recycled side of the panels.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, recycled is tougher because the inbound material is so variable. Uh we get uh scraps from construction projects, and they're all different kinds of sizes. Uh some of it's beat up pretty good, and we can't necessarily use all of it, but uh we process that in much the same way. We uh in some cases resaw it, um, we uh rip it into strips, glue it up into panels, and then press those panels together in the cold press. There's just a lot more effort that has to go into the recycled products than uh than the solid products.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

And so when you say you bringing in like um quote unquote waste materials, uh kind of giving them that new lease on life, I know that's a a phrase that you like to use, and I've I've stolen it and I've used it for my own purposes. Um but on the the materials that are coming in, are they like standard like job site two by fours, two by sixes? Are they CLT end cuts? Like what are they specifically?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Well, most of our recycled panels are engineered wood. So we're collecting plywood scraps, OSB scraps, uh in some cases LVL or even MPP scraps and uh converting those. Uh we're not right now, we're not doing too much with uh solid wood scraps, 204, 206, that kind of thing. Uh we can, and we have made uh panels from that, but there are lots of other uh alternatives out there like that. And so we focused on on the things that uh are a little bit more unique and unusual, like uh OSB and plywood. What about hardwood? Yeah, hardwood is easy. That's uh we've made a lot of hardwood CLT panels over the years. Um, we can make it from any hardwood species. We made uh a bunch of the signs for the Mass Timber Conference here a couple of years ago with uh maple uh on the face and the back and walnut in the core, and then we relieved the maple so that you see the walnut through uh for the signs for the Mass Timber Conference, the selfie station and things like that. We've made a lot of other uh things like that. So kind of taking advantage of the decorative nature of different colors of wood um to make decorative panels.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. What and so now that we know what thin CLT is, what do we use it for?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Most of the time it's cladding something, cladding a wall. Uh in the mass timber world, a lot of it is covering up uh concrete and steel, uh mechanical uh HVAC ducting, things like that, covering it up with uh CLT panels so that uh it either looks like uh a CLT beam or it might look like a laminated beam. We've made uh CLT panels uh by uh breaking down laminated beams and gluing them up in the thinner material, and then it can look like a laminated beam, but you might be covering up a piece of ductwork in the uh in the project uh to make it look a little bit prettier than the ductwork. Um but most of the time you're covering something up and you don't need the mass of a thick CLT panel, but you want to show the CLT construction, you want to show the wood, you know, beautiful wood grain, that type of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

What's been your conversations with different members of the project teams are like you guys primarily working with architects to make sure it has that mass timber look? Are you working with like GCs on constructability? Like who do who are you primarily working with right now?

SPEAKER_00 9:44

More and more lately, it's been the GCs, the subcontractors, the the fabricators, the installers, those kinds of people because it seems like uh they're the ones that are really driving the mass timber bus. And uh and they've got all the creativity, uh, all the imagination. Uh they know the capabilities of mass timber panels. Uh they they know what their products can do way better than the people that might be uh wanting them and and way better than the architects and designers. And so they're the ones that are calling us uh and talking to us about our capabilities and what we might be able to do. And you know, in a lot of cases we have to we have to show, you know, teach them uh all of the things that we can do because uh in a lot of cases they they just think that their only option is to buy uh plywood or particle board or MDF and paint it or something like that. And uh so we're helping them understand that no, you can you can make it look just like your structural CLT panels if you want. And uh and they they get pretty excited about that idea when they start thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Where are you seeing them use the the thin CLT like specifically? Like we talk about ductwork. Is it is it in connections, is it covering up maybe steel beams? Like on the job site, where would you walk through and say, like, that's a perfect place for thin CLT?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah, a lot of times it's covering up a steel beam because a lot of mass timber buildings uh use a steel beam here and there in the in the construction, but they they want to cover it up. They want it to look like all wood. And so uh we've done a lot of uh beam wrap uh situations in uh in many projects where they uh they want to cover up that steel beam. That's probably the most common case of use.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

What does it come down to uh on the cost side of things? Like are you helped like when you're working on these different projects, depending on what the goal of using FinCLT is? Like, how are you helping these projects like stay in budget?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

A lot of times we take a look at how big of an area they're trying to cover. And we have options for uh panels that maybe are not CLT construction, they're uh a less expensive construction. We can laminate the face material onto other, like a uh less expensive piece of plywood. And uh and if it's in a big field of uh of panels and that they're trying to cover maybe a big wall at the in a in an air, like in an airport or something like that. In the middle of that wall, you don't need a CLT look. No one's gonna see the edge of that panel. So you don't need to pay for CLT construction. Just get a panel that looks like CLT on the face, but it's just plywood back or that kind of a thing. And and save a lot of money in the middle of that wall. And then on the edges, put a CLT panel where people are gonna see the edge, put that CLT panel in there uh and uh and make it look like the entire wall is CLT construction when it might not actually be. But that's a way to save money and uh and still get the look that you're after.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Real quick, if you're getting value from this podcast, you should join us at the Mass Timber Group Summit. Every year we bring together the design, build, and ownership teams that are pushing Mass Timber forward for three days in Denver. It's a pretty networking forward event, and our sessions focus on the newest and most innovating topics that'll help you stay ahead in the industry. Everybody leaves with connections that'll move their business and their projects forward. Click the link below or go to MassTimber.group to get registered. So you talked a little bit about uh Portland International Airport. I know you guys had a a lot of product going in there. Where did you use SyncLT and PDX?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, we made all of the uh wall paneling for the exterior of the retail spaces that are between the ticketing area and the TSA. There are several retail spaces, and then up on the mezzanine, there's uh there's a restaurant up there and a bunch of rooms and things like that. And our panels are on the exterior of all of those structures up there. So um there they were all big panels, five feet wide, twelve feet long. Uh they had Oregon-wide oak on the face, and the backer was mass plywood MPP. And uh it was a challenge because um we didn't think that we would have enough Oregon-white oak to put to make a balanced panel. A balanced panel typically would have the same material on the face and the back so that the forces of the panel work together. We didn't think we would have enough Oregon White Oak to put Oregon White Oak on the back of those panels, so we had to come up with a construction that was still gonna lay flat um but didn't need Oregon White Oak on the back. We actually ended up with a four-ply uh CLT panel, but the CLT grain direction is different. It's opposite of what you would expect. And uh and that still, uh since they weren't balanced, there's still it was still a challenge, but uh we were able to make a panel that uh that performed well and uh and it's gonna look beautiful, and it's the same kind of thing. In most cases, people aren't seeing the edge, so they're looking at the face, and they wanted that face to look like uh six-inch wide Oregon-white oak staves, which is what what we ended up making. And uh so that was a great example of a very, very specialized panel that um uh that you know you're you're not gonna get that off the shelf anywhere. Uh and the neat thing about it was we were able to take scrap MPP from the roof structure and use it in the back as the backer for those panels. So a lot of the MPP scrap from the early part of the project came to our shop. We uh remanufactured it into uh the backer material for those panels, and then they used those in the retail spaces of the at the end of the project. So it's a neat way to use up the scrap material. And uh we you know, we love doing projects like that because it just uh it keeps stuff out of the landfill, keeps wood out of the landfill, gives it a new life. Uh it looks beautiful, it performs great.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Uh it's a great story. I agree. And you talked about like a balanced versus an unbalanced panel. So for people that aren't in the wood manufacturing world, tell me about the challenges of do like you said it was a challenge to make an unbalanced panel, or maybe a panel with different face materials. What specifically is that challenge and what makes it hard?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

When you have only three plies uh to a panel, which is typical for thin CLT, uh, then the forces, the third forces of, I mean, wood moves. Um that's why we love it, that's why we curse it sometimes. But we have to understand that wood moves. And people that are building mass timber buildings are definitely well aware of that. Um but uh in order to keep that movement balanced, if you have the same material on the face and the same material on the back, then as that wood uh takes in moisture, puts off, you know, uh puts off moisture, all of those kinds of things, it'll do it the same way and the panel will stay flat. If you don't have the same material on the face and the back, then the face might expand and contract at a different rate than the back, and you start to get uh more warping of the panel. And uh so we always work hard to make sure that uh the face and the back match. And it's an odd number of plies too. It's either a three-ply or it's a five ply, that kind of a thing, so that uh you're you're balancing out um the forces of expansion and contraction in the wood.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah, thank you for unpacking that for me. So we talked about you can you said you can make thin CLT out of any material, um, but what else can you do when you're in terms of customizing it?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

The the main thing that I think we've I guess we've done is using different species, different colors of wood. Uh and then uh in most cases it's because they want to relieve the face material and and show the core material uh for a sign or a logo or you know, something like that. Um in other cases we've done uh we've used different materials because that's what was available. Um or that was the desire of the the building owner. They had a a batch of material, a batch of wood, and they wanted to use it in a certain way in their project. And um, and so we were able to incorporate it into the panels, either uh most of the time using it as a core for the panel, uh, so that we have uh consistent uh face and back. But there are a lot of options. I mean, um, you know, we're putting these together um in a in a fairly can be in a fairly custom uh manner. And so uh they're just lots and lots of options for how we put them together. What's the most creative use of thin CLT that you've seen? It would either be uh as uh with the the different colored wood for signs, or we've actually done it for some tabletops as well. Uh we did uh there was a fire station, uh local fire station that wanted a table with their their logo in the table, uh filled with epoxy and things like that, but they wanted different colors and so forth. And it turned out it was really a beautiful, uh, magnificent table for their uh for their fire station. So projects like that are always fun to do and uh really brings out the beauty of the wood and the creativity of uh and the benefits of CLT type construction. Uh they get a table that looks, you know, the edge detail is already there. You don't have to do anything uh funky with the edge, just got a CLT edge, which is a pretty cool look to it. And uh and those those end up being uh fun projects to work on and look beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

So I know this is a a mass timber centered podcast and conversation, but I see so many different pictures coming out on LinkedIn of people using it for uh tables, furnitures, desks. Um, I've seen it on like staircases and stuff like that. Like, is that is that also a big use for CLT? Like, what do you what are you seeing your customers use it on on that side of things?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, it's becoming more and more of a of an item. Um and in a lot of cases, it's it's uh us taking scrap CLT uh that would normally be laying in a bone yard or going to a landfill or getting ground up and taking it and remanufacturing it into a bench or some tables and benches and things like that for customers. And uh we've also recently been pulling uh laminated beams out of the bone yard uh at lamb beam plants. And uh, you know, they get beams that either the customer decided they couldn't use in a project or there was some minor defect in the beam that they couldn't sell it to the customer, but it's still a good beam and they don't want to throw it away and so forth. But we can pull those beams. out of the bone yard and remanufacture them into furniture, tabletops, or uh stair treads or landings or things like that and uh and utilize the uh you know the look and uh and the fiber and and turn it into something that's beautiful and we're doing more and more of that as we go along and as people build more mass timber buildings because they are starting to think about well how else you know what else can we use this this product for and uh and they want to show it off too.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I want to touch a little bit more on the the origin story uh of torso and I know there's uh you've got some company uh history before torso but walk me through like why why are you doing this?

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Because there's no other domestic manufacturer that's making uh thinner CLT panels like why did you decide to pick up that torch and run with it you know it started a lot quite a uh over a decade ago a company came to us and asked us about making thin CLT western red cedar siding and um uh we had not made any CLT panels before that it was way before the mass timber movement started but these these guys were they were from Canada had European background they knew about CLT panels in Europe and uh they wanted to do something uh in North America and uh that's what got us introduced to CLT construction and then it was just really obvious from going through that process uh the benefits of CLT construction the fact that you can hide defect in the core utilize the wood better you can make the faces and back the quality the look of those faces and backs uh you know whatever uh the need is for the project and that's what really sold me on CLT construction and so we started uh trying to market CLT panels in the US and uh but since it was people work used to mass timber in the US they're like CLT well why do I need that you know what and so we do we tell them the benefits of it uh and they're like yeah well let's talk about something else and uh so it's been a struggle uh it it hasn't really been until mass timber took off that uh people started to really understand the benefits of CLT construction think about using a thin CLT panel um and so it's it's taken a while but the the next after the Western red cedar panels that we made uh that are still on buildings up in uh in Vancouver BC uh the next product that we started making was a recycled uh LVL product that was sold by Torzo Surfaces they were a customer of ours and um and they it was a CLT construction panel because you start taking LVL and trying to glue it up into a panel the only way that it's going to survive is as CLT construction because you're you've got that M-grain uh those N-grain struts and if if they're by themselves that they have no strength. So the only way that they can really uh perform and survive is as CLT. So we made CLT uh LBL for torso surfaces. They sold it as a raw product just as is and then they also infused it with paint polymers and sold it as an infused product out in the market. And they sold way more uninfused panels than the infused version and then uh when they uh when they went out of business or where their parent company was acquired by a much larger company and uh the larger company didn't want Torzo surfaces so we were long time had a longtime relationship with them so they the owner came to me and said hey are you interested in in acquiring Torzo and uh and I said yeah I I think it would be great so uh so we acquired Torzo Surfaces in 2021 and uh have used it as the brand name for our then CLT panels uh out in the marketplace.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

What was that year that you did that red cedar panel?

SPEAKER_00 26:52

I think we did those uh 2011 was the first year that we made uh those cedar panels.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

I don't want to put my foot in my mouth here but you might be one of like the earliest companies in North America to make a CLT panel.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah I think I think you're you're correct there.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah yeah I don't know of anyone that has done anything earlier uh and of course we're still the only thin CLT manufacturer in the US so we've been doing it for a long time but and I believe in the product that's the reason why um I I've seen it perform uh I know how it's made I see the benefits of it uh through and through and uh and it's nice that the industry is kind of coming around to understanding that fact now too it's great to see the mass timber movement uh in the US um makes it a lot of fun I I wholeheartedly agree um and I think the the passion for the ownership team into the product really shows because you've we've we've all seen companies where um a business launches a product maybe somebody else acquires the business right in this case you had a relationship with the previous Tor ownership but if it was some random Joe Schmo perhaps the passion wouldn't have pushed it to where it is today. And like you said like it was a struggle in a grind up until I mean it's always going to be a struggle and a grind but once that kind of like mass timber adoption curve started taking off like oh now you're pretty uniquely positioned but without that like long-term perseverance which in my opinion only comes from the passion we might not even be having this conversation right now.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah there were definitely many many times along the way where we could have given up and said you know it's just not worth it. It's not gonna happen uh you know it's not not worth all of the we need to go focus on something else that kind of a thing but uh I've just had a belief in uh the panels CLT panels and uh the potential for them and uh and love the story of the recycled panels especially love reusing wood and um so it's it's been a a long and a tough journey but uh it's nice to see some uh some good things happening there. Yeah for sure so what's uh what's next for you what are you guys focused on where do you see the thin CLT and and torso going over the next few years so it's interesting we have uh as we've talked about thin CLT with with everyone really people ask us about structural rating of a thin CLT panel and we have resisted that uh just because of all of the extra effort and cost and so forth of uh of a thin CLT panel and uh but we there is a way to do it and uh because my my comment to them has always been well if you need a thin CLT panel they're made they've been made for years uh they call it plywood uh and you can get plywood uh fairly readily from all from a lot of different places now it won't look like your CLT panel but it is a structurally rated thin you know multiply panel and that can do the job if you want something that looks like your CLT though we can take the face material that looks just like your CLT panel will laminate it onto a structural piece of plywood and there you have a structural piece of thin material that you can use in a in a situation where you need that structural rating and it'll look like your CLT panel. So we can accomplish it if it's really needed. In most cases I I don't think it's necessarily needed the nature of CLT construction, mass timber construction is that the thick members are taking care of all of the structural needs of the building you know they're all of the shear strength all of the uh all of the uh bending strength and all of that kind of thing that's needed in the building are taken care of and it's not very often that you need a structural panel to accomplish those kinds of to take care of those kinds of stresses it's more often the case that you just need something that looks like the CLT that is going to perform well um and uh and give the building the aesthetic that you're after and so uh having a structural thin CLT panel is is I don't think is that as big of a requirement as people might think but it can happen. I mean we can make a a structural CLT panel uh that looks like the CLT of the building so there's a way to do it and um you know we're happy to to do something like that for a customer if they want it.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Well thanks for joining me Mike I appreciate it and I'm gonna see you uh at IMTC which will probably happen after this video or before this video um so thanks for spending some time with me and I look forward to walking through the the Torzo facility and getting some of these beautiful images we're gonna edit in here.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Great. That sounds good thanks Brady