New Glulam Species, 3D-Curves & Impossible Projects with Art Massif

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An ambitious mass timber design usually meets the same three answers. It's not feasible. It'll be too expensive. Switch that part to steel. This episode is about a manufacturer that built its entire business around a fourth answer: yes.

Dave Savard, Director of Sales and Marketing, and Geneviève Constancis, partner and Director of Business Development at Art Massif, break down Aspen Pure, the company's new structural glulam made from quaking aspen, and the Samuel H. Scripps Theater Center canopy for Hudson Valley Shakespeare.


0:00 – Meet Art Massif
2:10 – How they started
4:35 – Aspen Pure
7:45 – Aspen design values
10:05 – Why aspen
16:30 – The Samuel H. Scripps Theater Center
20:00 – Design assist
27:30 – Architects are allowed to ask for what they want
30:40 – How 3D curved glulam beams get made
40:00 – First timber project advice

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

You've seen the one. The timber building where the roof curves in every direction, where the wood looks like it grew into the shape. That's the one where people stop and look up. That building didn't come off the shelf. Somebody pushed the limits of the design and the material to make it come to life. And that's the whole business at Art Massif. My guests today are Genevieve Constanceis and Dave Savard. They spent 16 years working on those beautiful, custom, incredibly high-quality projects that make us stop and think, how is this even possible? And now they're doing something totally new that brings it to a new level. Here's what we get into today. First, Aspen Pure. They've taken Quaking Aspen, a species almost nobody builds with structurally, and they turned it into glue am. It's lighter, brighter, and more uniform than any of the species you're used to designing with. It's a totally new look, and it's an incredible new option for high-end designer toolkits. Second, 3D timber curves. How they get those freeform shapes in those drawings to come to life. There's no machine off the shelf that can do it. It's actually a multi-step pressing process that uses custom build equipment and highly skilled craftsmen to create, and they walk us through how they do it. And third, Hudson Valley Shakespeare's new Samuel H. Scripps Theater, a roof shaped like a bird's wing, sweeping over the open air stage. And that's the part of the building that the project team was sure could not be built in timber, but Art Massif was convinced otherwise. They built a full-size mock-up to prove it and delivered the whole roof in timber, on budget, and without changing the architect's design intent. If you design, engineer, or build with mass timber and you care about the projects that push what timber can look like and do, this one's for you. Because the way they see it, architects are allowed to ask for whatever they want. It's Art Massif's job to figure out how to build it. But before we start, if you're in the Mass Timber world or trying to be, our newsletter will help you stay up to date on what's happening in this industry. And our annual summit is where you get to connect with the architects, engineers, and building teams leading the way. Both are linked below. So with that, let's get into it. So you guys are actually doing something pretty new and exciting, which is one of the main reasons that we wanted to talk. And that's what the work that you guys are doing with Aspen in Mass Timber. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah, we're thanks for asking. We were so excited about this. Uh, Aspen Pure is a product we launched in Portland a couple months ago. Very well received from the industry, architects, and designer. It's actually our new GluLen product made out of quaking aspen. Uhspen is a species that's largely uh present in North America, US, and Canada, but very underutilized. There's not a lot of product, uh value-added product done with it. Um, and that's something that we wanted to change. So we're introducing with it a completely different look for Glu Lam. It's a different aesthetic and architectural language compared to traditional species. Uh of course, there's nothing wrong with traditional species in the right setting. Uh, but Aspen Pure brings something very recognizable, very light, brighter, uh uh, you know, with more uniformity and more modern. And it definitely opens the door to more Mastimber project and uh to architects and designers who are looking for this look, and maybe not so much of the traditional uh look of Mastamber. So we we've developed this uh and and we tell a little bit more of the story uh in in this podcast, but we've developed this with the need of the clients and the need and the request from the market for a lighter, more um standard, more uniform wood uh with less knots and less characters than say the Douglas fir or Sodern Yellow Pine or uh spruce.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

What about the other performance characteristics? Like, where does Aspen fall and strength the weight, moisture? Like give me the give me the picture there.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yeah, it's uh it's very comparable to um to spruce in terms of design values from our testing. And and what we've seen actually, it's almost a safe statement to say that because the way that we're producing it, we're really uh sorting it and grading it ourselves with our own equipment. And it provides us with uh the you know, we're only selecting the best fiber to to make structural uh buildings with it. And so with that and our testing that we've done so far, uh it's equivalent or or superior to spruce in terms of uh load values and design values. Um so yeah, we're really confident uh with it right now. So what we're looking at now is an equivalent to 20 FEX. Uh, but we think that by you know enhancing our process and and uh and making it a better DTAP process, we might even get higher values at the time.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Real quick, if you're getting value from this podcast, you should join us at the Mass Timber Group Summit. Every year we bring together the design, build, and ownership teams that are pushing Mass Timber forward for three days in Denver. It's a pretty networking forward event, and our sessions focus on the newest and most innovating topics that'll help you stay ahead in the industry. Everybody leaves with connections that'll move their business and their projects forward. Click the link below or go to mass timber.group to get registered. Wow. And so what why Aspen to start with? Like I've I don't hear anybody else working with Aspen in any structural capacity. Like, why are you why did you guys identify aspen as something that you wanted to work with?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Hmm. I think first of all, it's a totally different look. And you know, at Arc Massive, we really are always looking for quality, uh visual quality buildings. And um so the the the look of the aspen is totally different. But I think first of all, it the story of it is it's really a simple story. Um our production director, uh, which is one of our partners, was harvesting in on his land in his forest. And like we all we're four partners, we all have lands, we're all passionate about forests and wood. He was harvesting, he was um uh cutting uh quake and aspen, and he was like, this wood is so beautiful, it's so white. Why don't we we should do something with it? And we started working on that because he was so um enthusiastic about it, and so we started like cutting it, sawing it, um, shipping it to uh Laval University in Quebec City. They tested it. We did some a bunch of testing, and we realized that we yeah, with the right humidity, the white right moisture content, uh, the right way of sending it, and we can glue it and we can do like beautiful uh glue and beams with that. So it really started from the forest. And Astin is an underutilized species in the forestry world. Um it was used to do mostly uh pulp for paper or so for shipping. For shipping pallets. Yeah, sorry. Um so with that, it's there was not a lot of added value to it, uh economically talking and for the communities. So I think we are on something to really um add value to this magnificent uh tree.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

And so with aspen kind of being like a an underutilized species beforehand, I heard you know, pulp and and pallets. Are you guys the only people doing structural aspen anything?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Well, as far as we know, yes, we are. Uh so uh in North America, in America, actually.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

So yeah, we we've not heard anyone else. I I know there was definitely a lot of interest in trying to find a way to use this for the same reasons that we found a few years ago when we started this project. Uh and you know, we had to develop our own internal process to do it, which seems could seem simple, right? To just start doing a new glue lamb with a new species, but every fiber has different character, a different characteristic. You can't uh necessarily uh sort or grade the the planks the same way that you do with other species. You cannot uh kiln dry the same. We had to develop our own uh drying method and procedures to make sure we keep the the fiber properties as high as possible. Uh and the the sourcing also was a key uh key element, right? It's it's uh it's not widely available in the market, and it's definitely not widely available with the right uh grades for structural integrity. So those are different things that we had to develop that might seem simple but are uh necessary for uh for the integrity of this product.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Well, I think one of the when I look at ArtMassive and the types of projects that you guys do, I think about something that's a little bit more special, more unique, has a little bit more character than like most, you know, normal timber buildings. And I think that's why when I looked at what you guys unveiled in Portland for Aspen Pure, I was like, oh, this matches so much about what they do. Like they really go to that high-end custom aesthetic, like letting letting wood be wood, if you will. Um, what type of like projects and and buildings are you guys really looking at and saying, like, this this is for art massive, like this is what we love to do? Because I see where in my mind Aspen Pure and could go. And I've seen some of your other projects, but like where where are you guys looking at seeing all this work towards?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Well, I think it's not uh really different from uh spee different species that we are working with, aspen or spruce or dog fur. We are always looking for projects that are either need a high quality or complexity. Uh as soon as there's something a little bit technically complex, uh, and it's uh often associated with um free form shapes, curvy stuff. Uh as soon as there's something a little bit out of the box, um that's what we're looking for. And as soon as we come either in our engineering uh studio or in the shop, and we come with something a little bit uh complex, everybody gets excited. So it's really um what we love doing, actually.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

So one of the projects that really stands out to me, and you guys talked about it at our conference last year, was the Shakespeare project that you guys did. And I think it's a real good example of that free form, letting Wood do what Wood wants to do. Can you walk me through that project?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, uh we have to call that the Samuel H. Script Theater, which has been dedicated with uh the ribbon cutting ceremony a couple of weeks ago. Uh that was done for the Austin Valley Shakespeare Festival. So that's the canopy that we've built for this theater. And that's the a really that's a really good representation or example of what's possible when an architect fully embraces the possibilities of mass timber. Uh the the first intent of the design, uh, first the site is is awesome. Like it's in the middle of the valley. We've seen we're seeing the mountain in the back. Uh, and we had you know, team had then the architect had to develop the building and design a building that was really setting up well in this uh in the scenery. And at the end, almost like it had grown from the site itself, right? It's it's really part of the of the environment there. Uh and no compromises were done on the design. Uh, there was obviously a lot of challenge to go from the original design intent to fabrication and production and installation of this structure. And with uh a pretty comprehensive design assist phase with the EOR and the architect and our team, we've we've uh gone through hundreds of small challenges to make this constructible, staying in budget, which was really important because this organization is a nonprofit organization. So there was uh obviously a budget limitation as any projects really. Uh but we also, and it's always really important for us to not touch the original design intent and make sure that the final visual looks the same, the architect uh imagined it at the beginning. Um, so we went through a lot of challenges. Uh the geometry was evolving uh through the process, but always the team wanted to keep the same uh the same design intent. Uh there's a few examples I wanted to share actually on what happened in that design assist phase. First, this is a 3D curve designs for many beams. The theater itself is curved in all axis, in all angles. And uh in production, you know, everything is possible if we carved every single piece, but it was it's not the most efficient. And what we've done, one of the first things we've done is simplify or straighten some elements really without changing the overall look. Uh so instead of doing everything in curve, the most important pieces are staying completely curved and 3D curved in both axes. Uh, but some of the purlins, for example, could be straightened uh in it in its shape by and still keeping the uh the overall uh the overall design with with without being noticeable, really. Like if you look at the structure itself, it really doesn't show. And that's what you can see uh on the on the end results when we uh integrated that building. Uh that really helped to keep project on budget, but also on schedule. Because if you go and curve, it takes more time, it costs more. So uh it was important to go through that. One other thing we've done, uh, and that was a really a tremendous thing to a team to work with on this project. Everybody was uh moving forward, finding solutions. Uh there was really no ego and uh trying to keep uh you know a bigger part of the pie. Everybody was working together. And one thing that we've done with the team is using some of the other material to uh reduce the pressure or the loads on the wood structure. So, for example, there's a catwalk for all the needs of a theater, and that catwalk catwalks in steel, obviously, and we've used it as a compression rink to take some of the loads on the structure and remove some loads on the wood, which helped to reduce uh the wood connection, the wood members, and and at the end of the day, just reduce the cost of the overall structure because that catwalk was was already there. Um so that really was possible with the teamwork of the OR, the architect, the uh construction manager, also, and ourselves. Um, maybe one last thing I wanted to share with you is uh the uh the roof structure. So originally roof was done in another material, it was not in Mass Timber. Um because of some beliefs from the team that Mass Timber or Decking, for example, argued that Decking would not be convenient, would not be uh compliant to go on the top of that structure, which is curved in all angles. We were convinced it was possible. And and to be able to convince the team without even them asking, we've built a full-size mock-up and and we've done that in our shop uh without being uh a request from the client or the architects, but we just wanted to show first how engaged we are in the project and the success of the overall look and the mass timber in it, but also to show that it was possible. So we've never we we've never done that before. We knew that we could we would be able to do it, and by building that full-size mock-up, then uh it was just uh a visual proof of it. And so I think from this point, the team was really convinced that we would achieve uh big things together. So those are a few examples, but really there was, I think, you know, multiple months of design assist where every meeting was fixing problems, finding solutions. And this is where our team thrives. This is where, you know, our our our uh office, our uh engineers and and project managers really uh find their uh their value and and their rewarding on this. They work closely with architects, engineers, and the team of clients to to get that achieved. So that's that's the project, like you said, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Our projects we like uh we love to do. So I think that project is a is a perfect illustration of like what's possible, the complexity, like breaking your assumptions on what can and can't be done with mass timber. Um, I know that you guys have a a phrase where you say that architects are allowed to ask for what they want. Why does that phrase exist? Because I think like my natural default assumption would be, of course I'm gonna ask for what I want, but what are we seeing in like maybe the timber industry that might be challenging that assumption?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I have to say the mass timber world uh material, it's a null material, but it's uh because we did some buildings and with NLT and Lulam um down in before 1950, maybe something like that. But we lost a lot of the expertise that was um working with the this material because it was all switched to steel and concrete. And I think by losing the expertise, um it and I mean for buildings, uh construction uh for the engineering uh and the architects also, but architects are super excited about this new uh material product for structure and they want to use it, but if all the other ones, the other uh stakeholders are not really educated for it, I mean few schools in North America uh teaches uh how to design with mass timber. So it could it can be scary, it can be so so our uh architects are been said like, no, it's not feasible, or this part, let's change it to steel because wood is gonna be too expensive, or you can't do that, or nobody can do it, like the manufacturers are not there yet, they can do it, can't do it. So all of those myths, I would say, um uh I think we have to talk about it and we have to say to the architects, like, ask for it.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

What makes the what I'll call the the impressive curvature, the geometries, the shapes possible like in your projects? Because I don't see a lot of other mass timber folks making projects with that kind of complexity. Like, how are you guys doing that?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Like, what makes that process So there's not other folks doing 3D curves and and there's actually no equipment or machine that available out of the shelf to do it. So it it really takes the innovation and the team to uh to build it and create it. Um so that's the the mindset that I wanted to mention first uh that makes it possible. But technically, uh what we have to do for 3D curves, especially the one that we've shown at the Portland, because it was a really tight radius, uh, it's a three-step process. So uh a lot of time and energy involved, obviously. But we have to do it first in curve, in 2D, if you want, in one axis, then slice the lamellas and curve it into the other angle, and then do it another time. So that's what we're gonna make the first curve, then slice, and then flip it on the other side and then curve the uh the other uh the other axis. Um so it goes first in our standard press, then it goes on the resawing, and then it goes on this the new press that we built for 3D uh for 3D curves. So that's that's an extensive process. Uh it's not a at the end of the day, it's not a cheap uh cubic meter, but it gives the look and the importance of the of the project and the uh the design. And that's why, you know, when when we're seeing when we're looking at a project and we're seeing places where we can simplify the shape without changing the design, we'll do it everywhere, right? We won't we don't want to put 3D or 2D curved everywhere if it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Where are you seeing demand for these more intricate mass timber structures? Like when somebody wants a beautiful letting wood do what it would do, building lots of curves, maybe it's 3D curves. Like we already we've already established that there's a lot more work, a lot more craftsmanship that goes into that. These aren't like the cheapest projects in the world, but like where are you seeing this type of demand really come from in the market?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Well, I think I think it comes from exceptional buildings, either into really luxury homes. Some of them do that. Uh everything cultural buildings, uh, we did quite a few museums, uh, center of arts, uh, those kinds of buildings. And luxury, also I say homes, but can be condos, uh and with amenities that are either all the condo could be in mass timber, exceptional quality timber. But otherwise, we see more and more uh the amenity amenity spaces, common spaces, uh, like for. Doing right now, we're in construction. It's the 12th uh story of a building, can condominium building that has like they decided just to do the tenthouse, uh gym, pool area, spa, you know, with a really high quality um blue lamp structure. So, but I think uh it's it opens possibilities for uh the architects to know that you know somebody can do something as um funky, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, I would say like if somebody has some really ambitious designs that's not a normal box, like that's that's what I think about you guys for, right? Um when people really want to get get ambitious, like you're saying. Um but one thing I keep coming back to is like, okay, you have you can make all this beautiful 3D curved wood, you've got the machine to cut it, but because of the the complicated nature and and the intricate and the intricacies of the types of projects that you work on, how much do you take on outside of just making the wood itself? Because I imagine with all that complexity, like you you want to bring some of that stuff in-house so that you have control over whatever it's like, connection design or steel coordination. Like, what else do you guys do other than just make the mass chamber products?

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Well, we we really can own everything of a project. It doesn't mean that for every single project we'll want to do everything or was as efficient as anybody else to do everything, but we can if we have to, and if the project requires it. Uh, starting from design from a blank page, really, and and doing design build or design assist, we have a team of uh a large team of engineers that are really capable of assisting or designing uh structures. Uh and then you know, we do everything from production. So we do our own gluing uh from two by six planks. Uh, we do our own beams, uh, and and we can glue it in all those shapes, like I said earlier, because of that. And then, you know, we obviously we cut it and CNC like like many others are doing. But to cut and and machine those beams that are sometimes really complex, huge, and in all angles, uh it takes a pretty special CNC machine that we acquired in 2021. Uh very, very high-end uh state-of-the-art Swiss machine for complete precision and making sure that everything from the next step forward will be completely fitting perfectly on site. Uh obviously, we do also finishing and and uh fabrication. Uh, and we have the install service also. Uh, so we can also take care of the install with our own team. Uh one thing that's not necessarily uh very uh spread out in the industry is we also control our connection designs, obviously from our office, but also connection production. So steel steel fabrication is something we do in-house when we have to. Uh again, it's for the right project, but you know, when we have such a complex, complex project or complexity to take care of, uh, owning everything really helps to push the envelope, but also helps to de-risk the project. Uh every partner, and and sometimes partnering with other people, we do it in other projects as well, is the right thing to do. But when we don't feel like the expertise exists and we have it internally, it's just uh it's just reduce the risk, right? And reduce interfaces. And when there's more interfaces and more people involved, then that that can increase the risk of miscommunication or delays or uh budget constraints. So so that's that's a little bit how you know we developed our full quiver of services over the years because we were not necessarily able to find the right partners. When there is a partner, we'll go with them. And we we love collaboration. We do it you know the majority of the time, but we've also developed an expertise internally for uh for those projects. And from a client perspective, that definitely brings value where they can have one conversation with one people and one accountability structure. We we own everything, and ultimately it ends up being a sweeter project.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

So we've talked about the scope that you guys can take in, the complexity, letting wood do what it does. What about size? Like, is there is there like a sweet spot for you guys?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

I would say what's not a sweet spot. Can I do that? Instead, you know, over 100,000 square foot uh footage uh projects. It it like really big and lots of volume in it, very square, uh, you know, 10 stories high, super square project where you have lots of uh wood. That's not our kind of project.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

What's what's the conversation you wish that more architects were having with timber partners like very early, maybe even on day one? Like if if somebody's approaching you, maybe it's their first timber project, maybe it's their second, but they're they're coming to you and they say, I have an I have this beautiful ambitious design. What's one thing that you wish that they knew from the beginning?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Talk with someone who knows it first. If you've never done a mass timbre project, talk with somebody that really has a lot of experience in it. And it's and I mean, it's a different material from steel and concrete. So you you have to change your way of um seeing your first step in the design. Uh maybe in 20 years we're we won't have this conversation. Uh everybody will be a little bit more educated with it, an expert. And it will be another structural material, like um off the shell, yeah, like what they learn in schools. But now I think the key is really talk to an expert in it. And we are experts for sure. I mean, we've been doing this for 16 years. We have a bunch of engineers in-house. We know our engineers have to do something that is efficient in the production line because otherwise they will hear about it very quickly. And same thing for they have to do something that is efficient on sites because they'll hear about it. I mean, it's so we've grown like that. So I think we're we can really add something to the Mastember ecosystem. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Would you add anything to that, Dave? Uh no, I think it was uh it was a good answer. I think uh, you know, involve your producer, and I I know that's something that we hear a lot in the in the industry. Uh we still as an industry do a lot of education and we we love to do this, right? We'd rather do this and involve some time at the beginning of the project helping an architect taking the right path than having to rework the plans or or change the stuff in the middle of a project on their budget and timing and schedule constraints. So I think the you know, we're we're not necessarily different than many others in the industry, and and everybody is really open to talk and help and educate architects to to bring more master member project uh to life. So we're we're just saying like we have a full pre-construction team and they're all ready uh ready to to pick up the phone and help uh anyone at any stage of the pro the project, but but as early as possible will be where uh people in our can find find the bar the better value to that.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

All right. Well, hey guys, I really liked learning about Aspen Pure, a little bit more about what you guys have done. I've seen all the beautiful pictures online, but I this is a first chance we got to like really peek behind the scenes and meet the team, see what you guys are doing in the shop to like really bring these crazy ambitious designs to life. So thanks for coming. Thanks for spending some time with me. And I look forward to seeing you. Well, actually, I guess maybe in in Denver. Um Yeah, of course. Of course, we won't miss this.