S2E8. Bodybuilding, The Black Tax, and Generational Differences at Work

Whitney is joined by fellow podcaster Shou Alexandre to have a winding conversation covering Shou’s body building journey, being a “good employee,” describing workplace dynamics known to some as the “Black tax,” and generational differences that exist in the modern workplace.  The conversation explores the impact of race and gender on how questioning authority is perceived, generational differences in the workplace, and the expectations placed on people of color regarding appearance and behavior.

Shou is the host of Shou Talks podcast, a show where Shou interviews people of different backgrounds who share on their experiences navigating life. In her words, these stories offer raw honesty, edgy humor, authenticity, and insight. 

Shou is an amateur bodybuilder in her first year of intensive training. She shares why she decided to document this journey and emphasizes the importance of representation in the sport. 

Then Whitney and Shou push back on the workplace norm of simply following directions without questioning or understanding the “why”. They discuss experiences in Shou’s life where she has worked harder and longer, taken on additional tasks, just to be valued as much as her white colleagues. This “Black tax” is not unique to Shou but is an experience unique to people of color navigating the workplace. Whitney reflects on her tendency to always ask questions and seek reasons behind processes, even if it means being labeled a "bad (or difficult) employee."

The conversation touches on generational differences, with younger generations like Gen Z being more willing to advocate for their worth at work compared to previous generations taught to just follow instructions to earn an income. Shou acknowledges Gen Z has opened doors for pushing back on unfair treatment, despite her initial skepticism.

The overarching themes in this conversation explore unlearning cultural conditioning to better navigate workplace dynamics as women of color professionals.

Listen to Shou Talks Podcast on audio podcast players, and follow Shou @i_am_shouxperience.

Follow Whitney @impostrixpodcast and learn about upcoming events and other opportunities to engage at https://www.impostrixpodcast.com. 

 Thank you Digital REM for editing this episode!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Shou: I'm gonna need you to hold on to your chair for this one. I took the post it off, and it was somebody else's name that was written and crossed off. And they put my name over it.

When I tell you, In that exact moment, I literally said, 

fuck this shit. Repeat after me. I bring more than diversity. I bring irreplaceable perspectives. 

[00:00:28] Whitney: Hey friends, my name is [00:00:30] Whitney and I'm the host of Impostrix podcast. The show that validates professionals of color navigating imposter syndrome and racial toxicity in their career.

Join us and be validated. You got this. It's a welcome back to Impostrix. podcast. I am joined today by my friend Shou who is a fellow podcaster. I've been on her show now twice. The show's called Shou talks. I always have a great time talking to her. It always [00:01:00] just kind of turns into some turns into like fun times.

Like I don't know how to describe it.

So I'm happy to have her on. Shou, go ahead and introduce 

yourself. Wow. Well, thank you for having me, Whitney. Um, she's right. She has been on my podcast twice and there is more coming because, um, like I said, we are kindred spirits, but hello everybody. My name is Shou. Um, I have a podcast named Shou Talks. Yeah.

Honestly, I am your, I call myself not your typical [00:01:30] podcaster because I just like to talk to people. I like to learn. I love hearing about what everybody's doing in their life. But more importantly, I like to learn how we, we millennials, or even the Gen Z's sometimes, but mostly Gen X too, um, are navigating through life and just trying to figure it out.

Um, I am very happy to be here. I am a career student. by life. Um, and I'm just here to have this [00:02:00] conversation. Well, I'm happy to have this conversation is what I mean to say. Oh, I am a mom and you know, I have a, and a wife. The two first things that things I should have probably said is first, but 

right.

Well, and you're Haitian. I am 

[00:02:12] Shou: Haitian. I am Haitian American. Both parents are directly from Haiti. I was born here, but I like to tell everybody that I'm Haitian because growing up, all my summers were spent in Haiti. So, um, what else am I missing? I don't even know. Well, it'll come out as we speak because that's what we do.

Bodybuilding. Yes! 

[00:02:29] Whitney: What do you [00:02:30] do for like, your hobby and your work? 

[00:02:33] Shou: Okay, so hob oh lord, hobby. Um, right now, hobby is my working out. I am working on bodybuilding. Uh, I literally told my husband because my, I told him, well, whenever we have the next child, I'm having a mommy makeover because trying to lose weight is for the birds.

And then I said, you know what, I, I literally, those are my words. And my husband is a gym rat. So I knew that would annoy him. [00:03:00] Um, and he was just like, do whatever you want. And I was like, Oh, you didn't even fight like what? But then I randomly one day just had a vision where I was just like. Let's see if I can transform my body on my own without having to go under.

It's still in the back of my mind, though, because I did my research, found price points and all of that. Um, but I have embarked on this journey of bodybuilding. I'm giving myself, however, three, at this point, two years, um, to, um, Get up on the nutrition because I did learn a big [00:03:30] part of it is nutrition and what you're eating.

That's about 80 percent of the work. So I'm giving myself this year and I focus on nutrition and then next year we will focus on like transforming my body. I have a coach, um, who I've already gotten in touch with. We've been working together since November 2023 and I'm recording my progress. Mainly for the fact of when I started looking up YouTubers or vloggers who bodybuild, I did not find any black women, um, [00:04:00] that even had my figure or anything like that.

A lot of times, for starters, you will find people who are already super fit doing bodybuilding, um, so I kind of had, you know, I guess two disadvantages, if you think about it, I couldn't find anybody that looked like me, anybody of color who was bodybuilding. You'll find fitness influence everywhere. Every day a new fitness influence is coming up.

However, bodybuilding, which I've learned, is its own different world. And I did [00:04:30] not find any, and if there are and you happen to listen to this podcast, please come find me. Um, because I, I'm still learning. Um, and then also. Like I said, the second part was just a lot of these people who go into bodybuilding are already fit, you know They've already got the six pack.

So now they're just toning up. So I want to document this entire journey God willing I get pregnant and it happens. I want to I want a body I'm still gonna train through that so I want to document that so that the next Woman of color who decides they want to just start this [00:05:00] journey from scratch being over 200 pounds They have that inspiration and they can have some type of guidance I think we've come into a time where transparency is becoming more, um, normal, is there no more normalizing transparency?

Whereas in the past, you were just told not to do something and no one fought back and asked why we can't do it. So I think now we're living in a time where people are like, well, why can't I do it? What actually will happen? And people are going, uh, Uh, what do you mean? Why can't you? Well, [00:05:30] why? What happens?

Like, what happens if I do do it? So, um, I think it's, it's, it's great that we're living in that time and we, we are the generation to, to push against that. 

[00:05:40] Whitney: Yeah, absolutely. Um, this reminds me, so one of the topics that I've been toying with is this topic of like, what it means to be a good employee and the myth of being a good employee, really.

Um, And that I've struggled with that in adulthood, but also, you know, [00:06:00] potentially even, you know, my first jobs and in college, because I've never been the person to just take direction and like, Be okay with it. Like for some reason and not, it's not always good because, you know, I'd be asking questions as if I think I know better and you know, well, sometimes you 

[00:06:22] Shou: do, you never know, 

[00:06:24] Whitney: but in every situation I do not.

But what does matter to me is that there is a reason for [00:06:30] this rhyme, you know, like that there, we're not just going through the motions because that's how we've done it forever. Right. Uh, in recognition that things change, like we discover better tactics. We discover better, you know, formulas, better routes, you know, we advance and develop.

And so, you know, has there been any kind of advancement in this process? Like, I mean, and it can be as little as I used [00:07:00] to work at Auntie Anne's pretzels. Oh, child. I love them. Don't eat all these pretzels. Um, to as big as, you know, what advocacy techniques are we using to get people out of prison? Um, I'm, I'm always asking questions and over this past, um, couple of years, I've felt a bit of insecurity, but also feeling ostracized in some ways around my question asking, [00:07:30] um, as if my wanting to better understand what's happening around me was a bad thing because I was not just taking direction and then going and doing my job.

[00:07:44] Shou: Yeah. 

[00:07:45] Whitney: And I think it was you and I that talked about this on your show about like, just figuring out how to Let go of some of the myth of what [00:08:00] this good employee needs to look like, um, for us as women of color in particular, who are coming from families where, you know, and, and culture, really not even like family specific cultures where like we need to follow the direction because we should be grateful that we have this job.

And. If we're not going to follow the direction, they're going to fire us. And then we're going to be good for nothing because we're not going to have a stable job. And they're going to hire 

[00:08:26] Shou: somebody and pay them way less and save them money. So they are [00:08:30] not, they will not hesitate to get rid of you. Yep.

That was, that was right. Yes. We did have that conversation. 

[00:08:34] Whitney: Yeah. 

[00:08:36] Shou: Triggered. 

[00:08:38] Whitney: So like it's, it's just been, um, So I want to do a whole episode on like good employee versus bad employee, because I think it's something that we need to unlearn. And it's something that I've been coming to terms with about myself is that like, if I needed to call myself good or bad, then I'd probably say that I'm a bad employee.

Like, I'm not the one that you want to hire to just go [00:09:00] do your thing and like, go home. Like, that's not, I'm going to be on all the committees. You're going to know my opinions. You're going to get the emails with the questions. I'm going to be asking questions during the meeting. Be prepared. Like that's right.

Exactly. So anyways, I got off track. What do you do for work? 

[00:09:16] Shou: I was actually going to go off of what you were going to say, but okay, so I'll say what I do for work and then jump in because, um, I, I love what you just said. Um, so I actually work in legal operations for a pharmaceutical company and I love what you said [00:09:30] about, well, I was actually the opposite.

I kind of still am. Um, I was the opposite of you. working when I first started working. I was the, I'm just going to take instruction, do what I got to do. And I never pushed back. I didn't ask questions, even if something didn't seem right to me, because not only just, you know, having a job, but I also have had immigrants parents who would always be like, uh, listen, our future is in your hands, so you're now the one that's going to work, so make sure you have a job because you've got to take care of all [00:10:00] of us for the rest of our lives.

Um, and, So I was always the one who would do whatever, I went above and beyond, you know, I had my name known in the sense of, Oh, just go to Shou, Shou, we'll get it done and not realizing I was setting myself up for being the sucker at work because I would just get everybody's workload and people were free and gallivanting.

And when I did see people push back or ask questions, I'm like, Oh, You questioned the boss [00:10:30] about why you have to do it this way. What do you mean? Like, just do it the way they told you to. And you'd be like, no, or people taking days off. I remember I had a job somewhere where I never took vacation. I never took vacation.

I was in the office by 6 AM. because I wanted to get all my work done. I didn't leave till like almost seven or eight. Actually, there was one day I remember leaving, it was close to midnight. And I remember cause my now husband, he was my boyfriend at the time, he worked at a nightclub a couple [00:11:00] blocks away.

And I remember just saying, I'm just, I'll just go to your car when I finished getting this project done and just sleep in the car till you got out of work. And I remember I left where it was like 1130 and I'm walking through downtown Boston and I got into his car and I literally, it was winter too. And I remember just getting to like I had a blanket and everything and every day for like a good.

Two, three weeks. Whereas people are coming in and out, you know, our white counterparts, half ass working, never getting, like, even so [00:11:30] much as written up, whereas I'm over here struggling to A, have my name be known by people as, oh, Shou's the one that I can go to, Shou I can rely on. No, it was Shou's the sucker who's gonna do all the work and be paid less than everybody else because she just needs a job.

Child. We're not in those days anymore because now I do speak up and now I am like, this doesn't make any sense. Is there a better way to do it? We can find a better way to do it. [00:12:00] Um, I do struggle at times. I do think that it is a ever evolving. learning process. Um, I do have moments where if I'm having a conversation with someone and they're like, well, what do you mean by that?

Can you elaborate? Like, why do we have to do it this way? And I'm like, why are you questioning me? I told you to do it this way. Cause I said, so everybody, you can't question me. Don't ask me questions. Cause I did my research, do what I tell you to do. Um, but it's true. Like I think, and in all honesty, as much as I make fun of [00:12:30] Gen Zs, I do have to owe this to them because I think they have opened the doors.

for pushing back and saying, no, this is what I worth. This is what I'm worth. This is what I want. This is what needs to happen or else I will go somewhere else. I think they have really been though. And of course, if you're like me, you make fun of them. They're like, y'all entitled little brats, like, just be happy.

You have a job, but no, you know, if you, in hindsight, you look at what they're doing, it's like, no, they are setting [00:13:00] themselves up to be valued where they believe they're valued. Whereas we come from a generation where it was like, you have a job, so you're Who cares how much they're paying you have a job you're valued and it's like no, it's not how this world is 

[00:13:17] Whitney: Hey you. I know what we discuss in these episodes probably hits close to home. Are you navigating a toxic work environment, racism, or simply looking for ways to create more equitable and [00:13:30] inclusive environments in your workspace? Or are you looking for support in resolving or managing conflict? We've got your back.

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Well, and along those lines, the generational differences that we all experience in the workplace are quite, you know, significant. [00:14:30] Yes. And. We're talking, you know, the differences also that we experience as people of color, right? So I've recently, you know worked with someone who was trying to understand.

She she was what's the generation? before Millennials Gen X. Okay, so she's a Gen Xer and Had like either a millennial or a Gen Zer. I think it was a Gen Zer come to her You Um, basically [00:15:00] complaining about, or venting about the way that a manager told her to do a task. And the person that I was talking to, the Gen Xer, was like, but like, this is just her job.

Like, I don't understand what is there to complain about. The manager told her to do something, you know. And so I'm here, like, in the middle of this generation, right, millennial. And I'm like, well, I will say, I don't want to be told to do anything. Right. Like. I want to be [00:15:30] requested. I want to be asked, I want my input.

Like I want to feel as though I have a say, especially if this thing that's being asked, isn't something that's spelled out, you know, in my job description. So for example, I may be a staff attorney, but if. now all of a sudden I need to train interns and that is not in my job description, then I don't want an email that says, Hey Whitney, uh, this person is starting on this day.

Go train them. Yeah. Like I need [00:16:00] the email to say, Hey Whitney, we've got this person coming into the office. It would be so great if you could train them. Would you mind doing that for us? And, you know, Giving me, letting me feel some kind of autonomy. Let me say yes or no. And you say, but yeah, right, right, right.

And they may, I might say no and they might say, well, but actually that wasn't much, like, you know, but we want to be included in this decision making. And that is a way I think that millennials and Gen Zers, [00:16:30] um, are shown that we are valued. Whereas Gen Xers, it's like, You don't have to be valued because you got a job.

So like your value is in the money that you are paid and doesn't matter if you're not paid as much as you should be paid or you got money, all this other stuff, right? It's a job. You, the contract that you are in is you do the work they say you do. And in return you [00:17:00] get paid. Mm hmm. Um, and so. So racially, and I don't know if you've experienced this Shou, but racially, I've had some experiences, particularly being a black person from the North coming to the South and navigating the generational differences of what black Southerners who are of a generation or two ahead of me, what their expectations are in the workplace, not only of themselves, but of others [00:17:30] and of black women in particular.

Versus, you know, other people, even, even white people, like it's been a very, I think there, it can be difficult to navigate the generational differences within people of color who are like, well, I had to work this hard to prove myself. Like I had to jump through the hoops. I had to be initiated, you know, and so you [00:18:00] have to too.

And I'm not going to step in and, you know, support you until you've shown me just like my predecessor made me show them like what you're made of. Have you had those types of experiences? 

[00:18:13] Shou: So I actually have not. Um, I will say that A majority of my work experience, I have not, I've been the only, if not, maybe one of three.

of color in my department. [00:18:30] Um, I will say that the, not where I am now, where I was before I used to wear, I'll drop that name, John Hancock. Um, my boss, he was a Cape Verdean man. Um, And he was on the leadership team. And what I do appreciate about him was that he actually did the opposite, um, of that where he always spoke about, you know, listen, it's us.

We just for us to keep up. We gotta [00:19:00] be two steps ahead and we're still catching up. So he was always trying to remind me, not necessarily in the, well, I had to work and bust my ass to get here, you do too. He would, he would help me to at times remind me like, look, there ain't that many of us over here. You got to make sure you're on your P's and Q's, you know?

And I was the type of person, not, I wasn't a rebel in the sense of like pushing back, but I'm going to show up to work who I am. So I love to switch my wigs around. I'd come in with pink hair at times. I'd have different color hair and [00:19:30] he'd be like, Hmm, let's have a conversation about this because, and he was a mentorship conversation.

I called him my work papa. Cause he was definitely a gen early gen X, uh, where he would, you know, at times remind me like, We know you're a great employee, but we need you to play like look the part right and it stuck to me because Also of having that Haitian culture and background I was raised and to this day I'm still this way [00:20:00] and I'm this with this way with my son, too If we're going somewhere you are dressed to the T.

I don't care if it's a casual event You're not going to be casual. We don't know what casual means. Like, we're casual going to the gym. Okay, great. Like, but if I'm invited to an event, like if we're going out, we're going out to dinner, I am dressed to the T as it's been embedded in me. So, uh, to this day, I go to work.

I'm always in heels. You will not see me wearing pants. I'm always in tights. Like I really, [00:20:30] oh my goodness. I'm Oh, cool. If I wear pants, it's 'cause it's really cold. 'cause we are in New England and everybody at work will notice and they're like, Shous and pants, are you feeling okay? And I'm like, it's zero degrees outside.

Okay. Yes. Wow. But I am very traditional in that sense. And I think it's. Not, I don't like to say the word fear, but there is a little bit of fear in there because, you know, some, and his name was Manny. I love Manny. I still keep in touch with him till this day because like you said, it was a mentorship [00:21:00] relationship where granted we can be the best employee.

And I think this also plays in the imposter syndrome where I know I'm better than better than Mary, Sandy, and Jen, who comes to work when they want to with coffee, Dunkin Donuts coffee. They got a meeting at nine o'clock. They're rolling in at 915 with their breakfast in the a. m. Mind you, I've been at the meeting since 845, making sure everything works.

I. I need to make sure I look a certain way because you will be overlooked. You know what [00:21:30] I mean? I, I'm trying to think, I can't remember who exactly. Oh, it was a friend of mine. This wasn't even work related. Um, but it's, it plays into me thinking about how we are viewed. You know, a situation happened with her son and she's expressing it to me, what's going on.

And she's just very angry and very aggressive in her tone. And. The first thing in my mind was, girl, no one's going to listen to you. No one's going to pay attention to you because right now you are [00:22:00] feeding angry black woman. And if you are, and it was her son was supposed to do attract me and he got overlooked and there was something that happened that he didn't end up running.

And she was just fuming going off and I'm just like, I need you to calm down. Like I, like I was talking to my son, I need you to find your calm body. Because if, because if you go into this, this, in front of all these white folks, cause it was, it was nationals and start yelling and screaming, they don't even see a mom anymore.

[00:22:30] They don't see that they did anything wrong. You're an angry black ghetto woman yelling and screaming that her son didn't get a fair chance, whatever you're at, whatever point you're trying to come across. throw across, it's not going to be received. And I, and I see that at work too. Of course, you know, being a woman of color, there are many things that happen where I know I get overlooked.

I can push back, but then that little voice in my head goes, you got to pick your words wisely. I was like, cause at the end of the day, if, if Christina comes over here cussing and screaming and very [00:23:00] angry, they're just gonna be like, Christina had a rough day. But if she'll come over here in this room, buck wild, not even as loud as Christina is going to be like, Oh my god, she has anger problems.

Like, are we safe around her? Can we have her here? Is, is she mentally stable? Can we keep her going? So, I'm, I've always been big on just how I look and how I come off and it sucks because it shouldn't be that way. It's, it's not equal, but it's kind of like, well, how do we, how do we go [00:23:30] past that? Like, how do we get, over that.

[00:23:33] Whitney: Yeah. And I think for us women of color in particularly, but also men of color, um, it, this is a tool that we use is the dressing the part, speaking the part, the code switching, the assimilation, um, the things that we need to do, because if we show up any differently, um, we may be written off. [00:24:00] And I'm, I mean, similarly to you.

The one space where like I was traditional was in courtrooms. I couldn't, like, I can't not wear a suit to court. I have friends who can wear like blazer and pants or a skirt to court. Um, and I can wear a pants suit. It doesn't have to be a skirt, but like, it has to be a matching suit with a nice top and heels.

Um, but I, you know, It's, I've had too many experiences [00:24:30] of my role being questioned, um, because I simply just wasn't white or maybe because I was young, you know, they didn't think that I held the, the professional position, um, that I, that I actually held. And so I do think there's a lot to be said for, for addressing the part and I, I try and reframe it some to in [00:25:00] my head so that I don't feel as much like it's assimilation, but more of like a confidence thing.

And that is that like, I also feel the most powerful in a suit. So not only will I wear a suit, but I wear, I have a power perfume. It's Alien by, what's his name? Thierry Mugler or whatever. Yep. So I look at, I smell it. Um, and you know, that's, that's just what I do when I'm going to court to feel my most confident and powerful self.

Yeah. [00:25:30] Um, because I don't feel my most confident and powerful self in sweatpants, like, or, or in jeans, if everybody else is in a different kind of attire, then I feel self conscious. Um. You start looking around. So I, right. I think that the older generations really do care about our success. It's just that.

There's a bit of reinforcement of the system as it is, [00:26:00] where I think our generations are like Millennial and Gen Z are really trying to change the system to change the perception of What it means, what we have to look like to go to work or what we have to sound like to go to work or, you know, tattoos is a big one, whether or not to have tattoos and to have visible tattoos, um, hair color and piercings, also big ones.

[00:26:28] Shou: I got to rub my chest cause these are [00:26:30] everything growing up. I was, I was told to keep in mind, you know, going on interviews. I remember I would have my hair in braids and I would, I knew I had an interview coming up. I would take my hair out. I'm taking my braids out. Cause I'm like, nope, I can't have braids going to interview.

Nope. I have tattoos. I specifically have all of my tattoos in places. I know that for work can be concealed. You know, we, we just, we close in. And I wanted to, um, [00:27:00] speak on a point where to an, an, an appearance. And I, This is a con on my end because I, I do play too much on the appearance look, but like I said, I, I think it was just embedded in me and I'm trying to work on not caring.

Um, the, oh my gosh, it was, it's a documentary. I just came out on Netflix about Boston and it was a mistaken murder that happened where I, well, actually it wasn't mistaken. They, um, yeah. It ended up the, oh my gosh, a pregnant woman was [00:27:30] killed in Mission Hill. The husband said it was a black man who did it.

This man was in jail for the longest time, ended up not being him. He was released. Long story short, um, but they released him and the Netflix did a documentary on it. And the mayor, the now mayor, issued an apology to the family. 

[00:27:48] Whitney: Oh, right. And she's Asian and she's Asian. 

[00:27:50] Shou: Yes. So many things that we don't like about this story, because I'm asking, cause I, I, I'm very ignorant in certain things, but this also [00:28:00] happened in 1986 or even older than that.

So we are in 2024. I think the apology was 2023. So you have the mayor who's an Asian woman apologizing in 2023 for. Something that happened in the 1980s where up until now we've had white men. be the mayor. So this apology could have happened when a white man was in office. That didn't happen. But where the old school Haitian, as everybody likes to make fun of me saying, came [00:28:30] in was when they had the press conference and the family came and I'm looking at the attire of the family.

Like that's, that's immediately where my eyes went. I know I was, I got upset with myself for being as mad as I got, but it was, it was a Haitian in me. Like, I was like, nobody wanted to put on a button up. Nobody wanted to, not one human, no one. Are we really at a press conference with the mayor in jeans and hoodies?

And like, 

[00:28:58] Whitney: that's what you took from this. [00:29:00] 

[00:29:00] Shou: I listen, guys, I, I'm being so transparent and I will tell you that I, I like, I have my internal battle that I go with this. Like, I appreciate like that. There was an apology said, yes, I know. And there was a lot of devastation that happened, but I'm looking at y'all like guys, not one person.

Yeah. Not like, but that was the Haitian in me. So like, that's what I say when it's embedded in me, like you got to in my, to me and maybe in, like you said, the Gen Z's and a majority of, of our [00:29:30] generation, we're trying to fight against that where it shouldn't matter what I look like, but it does, it does like where, where it's still a work in progress.

And, you know, cause we, to me, and like I said, it's the very old school, I immediately said, no one's listening, no one, like the, these white folks, sorry, these white folks are in the room saying, well, why wouldn't we blame you? Why wouldn't we automatically look at, look at how you're dressed, look at what you're wearing.

Why wouldn't we just immediately [00:30:00] assume that, that, that you were part of it. Um, and I hate myself for saying it, but I think it's just like. What was ingrained in us growing up. 

[00:30:10] Whitney: Yeah. And what I really look, I need to Google these people and see what they were wearing because like, in my mind, it's kind of like, They, we, all people, deserve to just be seen as who we are, regardless of what we wear.

Absolutely. But obviously, that's [00:30:30] not reality. That's not where we are. We're not there yet. Right, really, in any space. Right. I mean, our appearance, what do they say, the first three seconds, or the first seven seconds, or something? Insanely short amount of time. Like our first impressions matter and what's going to be taken in with your first impression, what you look like, what you're wearing, skin color, that type of stuff.

Um, and so, you know, it's, but it's interesting because in my mind, I'm like, them people have earned the right to wear [00:31:00] whatever they want to wear up on this platform. Shoot. They could be up here in towels if they want to be up here and a whole bathrobe 

[00:31:07] Shou: with rollers on what you got to do. I, however, was, but obviously, yes, 

[00:31:11] Whitney: like it's the same thing when we have, um, you know, when people are interviewed on the news, like there are some of us who are like, look, I'm going to go to sleep with a bra on because I don't want my house to burn down or something.

And then I got to go outside and talk on the news and not have a bra on. 

[00:31:28] Shou: That's what my mama used to say to me. She'd be like, listen, [00:31:30] make sure you got clean underwear on. Make sure your undergarments are always clean because you don't want something to happen to you. And then the people in the ambulance going to see that you ain't got no, you walking around with dirty drawers.

Like that, it was just. That was the mindset that, but once again, y'all I'm telling y'all it, it's old school. Hey, my mind, I don't even think she had Gen X is whoever came before the Gen X is like those, them folk blame them boomers. Probably she was born in 49, 

[00:31:55] Whitney: man. 

[00:31:55] Shou: My mama was 49. My father was born in 57 blame them because they have [00:32:00] and pray for my child because I, that's still in me as you can see in 2024, I'm judging people for what they have on.

If you come into an interview without. A suit on. I'm judging you. I'm sorry. 

[00:32:12] Whitney: So, but how much do you think that is you liking fashion versus you and your expectations that like you, in order for us to be heard, we need to look good. 

[00:32:24] Shou: Honestly, I would say it's probably 35, 40 percent fashion [00:32:30] because I, and I think because I grew up, like my parents threw me in a predominantly white high school and I was always overlooked.

Like, granted, we all wore uniform, but I've been, overlooked for so much and like for so many years in my life that I, I want to make sure that doesn't ever continue to happen to me or happen to my children. So I feel like what you look like and how you speak and how you just present yourself is so important.

And I know that it's not right and the world [00:33:00] shouldn't be like that. But like you said, the truth of it is, this is just where we are. This is how we're living. And when you are a person of color, you are automatically, you already knocked down a couple notches. Like. Off, off rip. Um, I will say like even in looking at schools, um, for my son, we found this one school and it's called Roxbury Roots and they were explaining their mission statement and I immediately fell in love with it because they spoke about, they, I think it's called an Afrocentric led education [00:33:30] where, girl, I'm probably saying it wrong.

And they were saying how, you know, they based their morals on African culture and folklore and, and culture because the last, the past couple of decades, our education system is Eurocentric base where people of color were Pretty much taught that we were insignificant to the history of America of the world, and that's not the truth So [00:34:00] they they really focus on, you know Empowering children and making them understand that you play a very big role here Like like let me tell you black history month.

I went and bought all these empowerment shirts I, I've only started with one a week because I don't want to overwhelm the white folks at work. So once, once a week I have my, my, like, I think last week I did, I had my shirt, had a list of all the black inventors and it said, we would not have this without this person.

And it said the invention, the person, the year. And then of course, you know, this one, [00:34:30] like, do you have McCoy on there? I get it. You know, history, we, you know, black people. Thank you. Great. Um, but, but same thing with my son. Like I bought him a bunch of shirts every week. He's wearing something to commemorate black history.

Um, I don't remember my point, but Oh, the school. Um, but it's true. Like we were taught to think that we need to catch up. We, we need to be on their level. And the reality of it is, is we are, we are already surpassed the level of our counterparts, but we were made to [00:35:00] feel the opposite. So I kind of feel like we got to figure out how to, how to get our power back and part of that.

is in your appearance. We were kings and queens. We still are kings and queens, you know, and we, we've been made to feel like that's not our, we don't have a seat at the table. So we got to find a way to kind of get that power back and we can't get that power back in sweatpants. Y'all not yet. Let's get, let's get that power and then we can chill in our sweatpants.

That's how I see it. 

[00:35:27] Whitney: Yeah, no, I, I do agree with that. [00:35:30] And I'm reminded of just, Gen Z's. So, okay. I worked this past, the last job that I had, I found myself one of the older people, which is crazy. Crazy. Cause at this point, I'm 36. How? But I'm working with 21 year olds. Man, we there. I know. So one of my friends, one of my closer friends at this workplace, [00:36:00] I don't know, maybe she's like 24 2.

I don't know how old this, this girl is because I'm looking at her like a grown woman, but clearly she just barely left teenage years child. And so still wet behind the 

[00:36:08] Shou: ears. 

[00:36:09] Whitney: Right. And you know, she's looking for a new job and we're talking about what to do if she applies for one job. That is like a second, her second pick.

Mm-Hmm. job. And she's offered that job. What does she do if her first pick job then reaches out to her wanting [00:36:30] to hire her? So my old school millennial mind, I'm like, well, clearly you can't leave that job. Like you, you took the job. You have to commit to the job. We're here. Yep. 

[00:36:43] Shou: Yep. And she's like, but why?

And I'm like, what do you mean, but why? There go that damn why. 

[00:36:51] Whitney: What do you mean, but why? Cause you said 

[00:36:54] Shou: yes. 

[00:36:54] Whitney: Because you said 

[00:36:56] Shou: yes. That's 

[00:36:57] Whitney: it. I ain't got nothing else. Because you [00:37:00] said yes. Right. And she's like, no, no, no. Definitely if, if my first pick calls me, I'm just going to jump ship to the next and I'll just not put it on my resume at all.

Like, if I've only worked for this place for three weeks, I'm just going to not put it on my resume. I'm like, well, that would be smart. Don't put on your resume that you've only been there for three weeks. But like, in my mind, I'm like the travesty of job hopping. Um. But since that time, so this was maybe a little more than a [00:37:30] year or maybe a year ago now, and since that time, I've had more and more conversations with people of varying generations about work.

And it's like, these folks don't care. These Gen Z ers, I mean, like you were saying at the outset, giving them their dues, they You're bouncing. They are the prize. Okay. And so if like, I love the, the sense of like ownership, uh, over the labor. Yeah. So like they will go find something else. [00:38:00] They will make their dollars on YouTube.

They will do the things that they need to do to not be in an environment that they don't want to be in. Girl. Aim. Woo. Woo. And it's like, all of us out here, all of us, all the people are like, crying at 

[00:38:13] Shou: the 

[00:38:13] Whitney: desk, 

[00:38:14] Shou: I hate it here. 

[00:38:16] Whitney: I don't want to be here. And we're talking about these Gen Z's as if like, they don't, they're entitled.

They, you know, don't have any kind of like, Charisma or whatever. Like there's no sense of loyalty [00:38:30] in Gen Z, blah, blah, blah. And why? Because we had to go through all those things. So like, we think that it's the exact same thing with us and the generation before the Gen X, like we should be embracing, like nobody should be treated like shit, we should all be valued for the work that we provide.

We should all be able to work in our top choice environments if we want to, and then take a risk and leave for the top choice job. Because look, these employers don't care about us. We are dead labor. [00:39:00] At will. 

[00:39:00] Shou: At will. 

[00:39:02] Whitney: Right! We're an at will state too. Like, so, if we're gonna have to be in this rat race, and be, you know, constantly trying to move up the scale, move up the ladder, make more money so that we can afford all these new taxes, which I'm not against taxes, but I'm just saying taxes are expensive.

Good job. Um. Like, if we, if we need to be looking out for ourselves, and that's what I get from Gen Z, is they looking out for themselves. 

[00:39:29] Shou: They are, they're [00:39:30] saying that, and it's, it's funny, I was literally just having this conversation with one of my cousins, and she was telling me about, you know, she doesn't like where she is at work, and she, if, if things don't go the way she needs it to go at this next evaluation, she's gonna start looking.

And I'm just like, like her saying that gave me anxiety because we're in, we're both having anxiety on the phone. Cause I'm just like, girl, the process of having to interview for a job, then having to figure out if you go and get it then, because nowadays, if you haven't known, and I don't, I don't know how it was in the past [00:40:00] in other States, but, but, Jobs don't even post their salaries anymore or what you're going to get paid.

Like when you look at job postings, they used to say, Oh, this position goes for this much. They don't even put that anymore. And I'm like, so now you got to negotiate your price and you got to, you know, work hard to prove to them that you can even have that salary. And they got people that do this like on a yearly basis.

Every year they in a new position because from what I've learned, like research has shown, that's really how you're gonna make more money is to bounce around from different job because you just [00:40:30] keep upping your value. And I'm just like, who got that type of energy? So you mean I gotta start a job, make friends at work, build a whole new environment, learn your system, then go interview, find somewhere else, and then do that again next year?

I can't. I can't. I don't have time. I'm exhausted. I'm tired hearing about it. 

[00:40:47] Whitney: That's why they got to be Gen Z because they're young, they still got the energy, ain't got no kids maybe. Look, they can still order out every single night because they only 

[00:40:56] Shou: spending money on themselves. I, if you see my [00:41:00] resume, like, and I, and I remember when I was, I went to a temp agency at one point, because I actually quit, what did I, I quit once without having a backup.

That's how sick and tired I got about it. And you know what? We can tell the story because I do feel like that's like a big deal. And I am a loyal to the T type of person. Like I, I will ride for my job. I have been at, I think the shortest amount of time that I've been at a real job is probably four or five years and then I'll go somewhere else.

[00:41:30] So I remember I quit this job because. I was the last person in my role. It was like, we were case managers and then everybody, you know, you would be a case manager for a certain amount of time. Then you became like a super, whatever that title was, a case specialist, which was the same thing as a case manager, but it's like, Oh, you're like a super case manager.

And I remember like everybody, who came on with me at this point had already been promoted. And this is the same job where I told you I was coming in at like 6 a. m. and like leaving at 11 [00:42:00] p. m. And I'm like, I'm busting my ass. Like, why haven't I been promoted yet? And then so when I finally, they promoted and I, at this point in hindsight, I feel like I was promoted because everybody who was on the next round to get promoted had got hired after me.

And so they were like, we're going to lose her. If. We don't hire her. They just don't look good. She already, they don't look right. And she already, like, like I said, I'm working double the amount of time, not getting paid as everybody else. So they're like, we're going to keep her. We ain't got to pay her that much.

She, [00:42:30] she over here busting her ass for us. Like, why, why even rock the boat? And so they, what happened is what they would do is you would come into your desk or your cubicle and there'd be a card. on your desk. So I see my card and I'm like, Oh yeah, I got my promotion. I opened the card and it's like, Oh, you know, congratulations.

You've been promoted. But I noticed the card was green. It was lime green. And I noticed that my name was on a post it on the card. And I'm like, Well, this is odd. [00:43:00] 

[00:43:00] Whitney: So they could have gave that card to anybody. 

[00:43:02] Shou: I took an old girl, Whitney Hona. I'm gonna need you to hold on to your chair for this one. I took the post it off and it was somebody else's name that was written and crossed off and they put my name over it.

When I tell you in that exact moment, I literally said, fuck this shit. And I emailed the supervisor, like the [00:43:30] main means my supervisor, supervisor, and said, this is my two weeks. And then he called me into his office and he was like, and mind you, it's like 7 30 in the morning at this point, because he finally came in and he's like, well, he had showed up early and then he was like, well, did you find another job?

I said, no, he was like, well, why are you leaving? And I showed him the card and he lives, he's. I'm sure, I'm sure she didn't even mean it like that. I'm sure it's just, you mean to tell me I'm not worth a 2 [00:44:00] card that she couldn't just go buy another card and write my name on it? She put it on a post it as if I couldn't put two and two together to take the post it off.

Clearly I'm speaking of a white woman and everybody else was white. I was at this, at this job, I was the only black woman working. And I'm like, you don't even see how it looks like you, you are so. Like racially blind, I guess at this point, I can say that you don't even see how this looks from many perspectives.

And he [00:44:30] tells me, he was like, you know, I just, just think about it. You know, I would feel much better if you came to me and told me that you found another job and that's why you were leaving. I was like, but I didn't. And I don't care about how you feel. 

[00:44:43] Whitney: Sorry, right, sorry you don't feel good about this. I'm 

[00:44:45] Shou: sorry you don't feel good that you have shitty ass workers who don't know how to, how to work, how to, um, treat their subordinates.

I hate that word, but whatever, or their direct reports. Like, you want me to make you feel better because y'all are being racist. Sorry. It is [00:45:00] what it is. I don't even know why I told that shit. I'm trying to remember why I shared that story. Post it. That's great. You put my name on a post. I don't 

[00:45:09] Whitney: know what you were saying.

I got too sucked into this story. Oh, yes. That's what I was talking 

[00:45:17] Shou: about. So when I went from that job, that was the first time I ever quit without having a backup. And I remember going to a temp, no, um, using a staffing agency and the lady looking at my resume. The first thing she [00:45:30] said to me was, it's very odd.

for someone your age. I think at that point I was late twenties. She's like, it's very odd for someone your age to have been at companies for as long as you're at. And I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, mostly people are like one to two years and they go to different places. And I'm like, No, child, listen, I get very comfortable where I am.

If I like my job, I like my job, y'all treat me right, I'mma be here. Like, I'm that type of employee. Plus, we were always [00:46:00] told, too, and this could be a lie, you can correct me, that your resume should be one page. Yeah, no, that's 

[00:46:05] Whitney: what I was told. 

[00:46:06] Shou: Girl, these resumes I've been seeing these days, two, three pages long.

Who's reading that? Who's reading all of that? 

[00:46:13] Whitney: Not me. Like, I think after a certain level in your career, it's expected that it's more than one page, but like, I think if you're still, if you're Gen Z, you should have one, one page, 

[00:46:22] Shou: one page, please. So, I 

[00:46:24] Whitney: don't know, you can have to cut off some of them jobs, just pick the most important job.

You don't 

[00:46:27] Shou: gotta put McDonald's on there, you don't gotta put [00:46:30] the Dollar Tree on there, unless you was a manager. Nope, 

[00:46:33] Whitney: any job that you had less than, I would say she's six months. I don't even want to know about, but like, 

[00:46:38] Shou: it wasn't a job. It was a hobby. It was a summer hobby. 

[00:46:43] Whitney: Please. You just needed some spending money for Christmas.

Like 

[00:46:46] Shou: you were saving up for that trip. That's it. That's it. No, but it's, it's wild to, to. to think back on. I mean, you know, I'm 37. I don't even think I've had that much experience, but when you sit back and you, you look at [00:47:00] the, all of the jobs that you've had and all the experiences that you encounter, whether it was racially or even just professionally, you're just like, I done been through a lot.

And I think that helps now with our understanding of as much as I do drag the Gen Z's for feeling entitled, they are onto something. They really are like, no, I'm not doing it. Like I, I think I finally come to the point where even with now, you know, I have to be in the office. three days a week, but everybody at my job, they understand my [00:47:30] son is my priority.

So I need to leave here by 3 30 so I can get to daycare on time. And even now I'm thinking about, okay, when he goes to school, these schools ain't trying to give nobody no regular hours school. One of those schools we were looking at was 8 20 to 2 45. So when am I supposed to work? So now I gotta try to, already in my brain, mind you, he's not gonna be going to school till September 2025, but I'm already racking in my brain, cause you know, Impostor Syndrome, they go, I tell everybody, oh my god, I'm replaceable, they're gonna, they're gonna, you know, find somebody else to replace me.

[00:48:00] I'm like, I gotta figure out how I can present to them to let me be fully remote, so that I don't have a problem picking up my son. Or even, I'll take it one step further, me having to go on maternity leave. Granted, I know I'm an amazing employee. I know my worth. Everybody comes, since I was an admin, and I recently, I recently became, uh, got into the position that I'm in now at General.

As legal operations, but as an admin, I made sure to put my foot mark and everybody knew my value. So I'm that person that [00:48:30] everybody goes to for anything. I can't figure this out. Or can you help me do this? I'm the fixer. I'm the go to person. But as of recently, since we are on baby number two, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna go on maternity leave.

What if whoever my replacement shows to be better than me? What if they give somebody my position? But I know, but I have those thoughts and then anxiety comes in. You know what I mean? Because we're all, we, we have this thing in our mind. Like someone they're going to say, they're going to find someone better than [00:49:00] me.

No, they're not. No, they're not. And even if they do, by law, they can't fire you while you're on maternity leave, like one of my really close friends at work who I said that to, and she was like, first of all, I don't even know why you're thinking about that, like, legally, if it makes you feel any better, because she works in HR.

She's like, legally, that can't happen. I'm like, okay, well, still, like, I don't need nobody coming in. Trying to take my job from me and then I come back and it's like hmm this person did it better Well, go find them then give me my severance [00:49:30] package. 

[00:49:31] Whitney: Yeah, you'll be fine You'll be fine like and you might even decide after the second baby comes that this isn't the right position for you anymore.

Anyways You never know, like things, I think we, we need to be flexible, um, because things can change so quickly. Our interests can change what's happening in our families can change. And 

[00:49:51] Shou: you say that reminds me of, so I follow this woman called, um, I think her on Instagram is black, super, super black mamas, black super mamas.

I love her to death, but [00:50:00] she had a very transparent post the other day and she's doing amazing on social media. And I think she didn't say what her job was, but she had a transparent. post the other day and she was actually crying, but she clarified that she wasn't crying because she was sad. She was crying because she was frustrated, but she would let go from her job and literally say, and in my head, I'm going, how could they let you go?

Like I see your social media, like you have hundreds and thousands of followers on your own. So I can imagine what you're doing for work. And they were pretty much saying that she wasn't hitting [00:50:30] what they wanted for. their social media platform. And she was like, you know, I'm a black woman. I walked into this room with three white men and they're telling me I'm not doing a good enough job.

And she's like, so they let me go on that. And I immediately like something in my brain snapped where I was just like, It really don't matter who you are. And if you do ever get into the position where you are let go, sometimes, of course, after you have your moment of, Oh my God, this is really happening. I think there are [00:51:00] times if you are spiritual, I am to turn and be like, God took me out of this.

What's next. I mean, you might not get there immediately because I know if, God forbid, if I was to lose my job, I'd be like, Oh my God, who's going to pay the bills? But, but at the end of the day, we have to finally get into that mindset of, I've been taken out of this position for a reason. I don't belong here.

And I think that's where the Gen Z's thrive. They, they are very well in tune with [00:51:30] the, uh, I don't need this. This isn't for me. What's next? And maybe it is because, you know, they ain't got no kids and they still living with their parents, so they don't have no real bills. Like, I remember me in my twenties, like, what, what's a mortgage?

Like, what's a car? No, I can do what I want. Um, but I think if we let go of that fear and that mindset of thinking that we have to To not necessarily commit, but we have to give this job more importance [00:52:00] than our own life and happiness and sanity. We have to learn to let that go. And I'm saying we, because I am definitely one of those people where I will wake up at four o'clock in the morning sometimes to get through emails.

And I'm like, why? Because nobody else is doing this. Nobody is online right now. I've had bosses come back to me at 9 o'clock and say, why were you on computer at 4 a. m? And I'm like because you said you wanted this by 8 and I have a toddler in my house who takes my weekends [00:52:30] from me So you told me Friday at 3 p.

m. What do you want you you encourage work life balance and yet you give me a whole list of things to do that in unrealistic timeframe. You gotta tell me what's, let's, let's figure it out. But I think it's on us to kind of set those boundaries. So maybe, maybe I will talk to some more Gen Z's and get that confidence because they, They got it.

They teach us. We got to [00:53:00] let go of the Gen X. I appreciate their work ethic, you know, I think they showed us hard work and what that looks like and what that will get you. Gen Zs teach us to value who we are coming in, as opposed to who we can become while we're there. Ooh, child. I like that. Um, but it's true though, because if you, and we gotta, we gotta find a way to be the [00:53:30] medium because we are, we are exactly in the middle of that.

So we gotta find a way of how do we make those two connect. Because they, they, they not listening to each other. We got to play the middle person between the Gen Z's and the Gen X's. Because granted as much as we're like, Oh, then Gen Z's don't listen. Them Gen X's be like, Ooh, them kids. Somebody get them kids.

So we got to be the ones to get them kids. But get, get the old folks together. And then we all kind of just sit and kumbaya. Because we, we honestly can learn from each other. 

[00:53:59] Whitney: [00:54:00] Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Before we, um, sign off, let me, let me know what your, what's your affirmation or your mantra for this season?

What are you telling yourself? I 

[00:54:11] Shou: actually have it written up right here on my whiteboard. I went and bought a whiteboard. It is, I am a magnet to all things good for me. I am a magnet to luck and abundance. I have the power to attract and accomplish anything. And then I end it in, in Jesus name, amen. [00:54:30] So right here on my board every morning and I have my two year old saying it with me.

Cause we got to believe it. Absolutely. 

[00:54:37] Whitney: That's awesome. That's great. I love that. Thank you. And I also like the luck part because I think a big part of this life is that sometimes it is just luck and that's okay. 

[00:54:49] Shou: That's okay. And actually my second one. Which is, I think is very, plays a very powerful role that we don't do enough with ourselves.

I forgive myself for my mistakes because I don't think [00:55:00] that we are gracious enough with ourselves. And it's because I saw a post too that was just like, yeah, we, we thrive, you know, we get so excited about the end goal, but can you just sit back and realize everything you've already accomplished before you even get to this destination?

And I don't think we do that. I think we focus so much on all the ways we fucked up instead of saying, okay, Let's talk about how we came from the fuck ups like where you are today versus right years ago. Well, 

[00:55:27] Whitney: thank you so much. Tell us where we can find you. [00:55:30] 

[00:55:30] Shou: Well, I am well, you can find me on social media Honestly, I if you go to my IG you can click on the link and I have a link tree and I'll take you everywhere But my social media is a mouthful get ready.

It is I underscore am underscore is Shou spirits shou xe Oh, see, I'm already messing it up. I don't know. That's X P R I E N C E. Oh Lord. Geez. See, I told you it was a mouthful. [00:56:00] You might need to rename that. I got it right here on my shirt. Make sure when you do a video pod, it's right here. I should have just looked down.

Right. Right now we are looking at Shous. All right. You know what? Let me say it again. You can find me on social media, it is I underscore am underscore S H O U X P E R I E N C E. Shousperience. Mind you my 8th, well she was 18 at the time, gave me [00:56:30] the name. I didn't even make it up. I was like, this is amazing, let's do that.

Cause I am an experience all of on its own. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. 

[00:56:39] Whitney: This is a really great conversation. And I'll make sure that you go listen to Shous, podcasts, Shou talks. 

[00:56:46] Shou: Thank you. Thank you. 

[00:56:49] Whitney: Thanks so much for joining me for this conversation. I hope that you got as much out of it as I did.

Feel free to continue the conversation with us. Over on Facebook at the Impost [00:57:00] Podcast validating space. We welcome all and it's a space for us to validate each other as we work through work, race, and imposter syndrome. You can find out more about me or about the podcast@www.impostpodcast.com, and don't forget to follow me on Instagram at impost podcast.

Until next time, be validated.