Trail of Lightning

Evelyne and Daniella discuss Trail of Lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse. Topics include the pros and cons of a slow burn, badass magic, and a wonderful grandpa.

Transcript

Announcer (00:00:00):

This is Intoxicated Literature.

Daniella (00:00:10):

Hello! Welcome to Intoxicated Literature.

Evelyne (00:00:14):

Hello!

Daniella (00:00:17):

I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne (00:00:19):

And I'm Evelyne Crow.

Daniella (00:00:21):

We are here discussing Trail of Lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse.

Evelyne (00:00:25):

Yes.

Daniella (00:00:26):

And I think we should just get into it. What do you think?

Evelyne (00:00:30):

Let's do it. This is a juicy one. I like this one.

Daniella (00:00:32):

Let's do it. It is a juicy one. It was good. I quite enjoyed it as well. So, initial thoughts?

Evelyne (00:00:38):

Five out of five. I really enjoyed this book when I read it. I have read like 150 books since January, and I would say 75% of them are urban fantasy, fantasy. I have been reading.

Daniella (00:00:52):

Yeah, it's the fantasy.

Evelyne (00:00:53):

Reading?

Daniella (00:00:54):

Reading, we've been drinking and reading.

Evelyne (00:00:55):

And drinking.

Daniella (00:00:57):

That's why we're here. That's what brings us together today.

Evelyne (00:01:00):

But the point is I've read a lot of urban fantasies and this one is different from all of them. And I really love it when I read books that are different from anything I've ever read.

Daniella (00:01:13):

Absolutely agree. I mean, in our lifetimes even, we have read so many books.

Evelyne (00:01:18):

So many fantasy novels!

Daniella (00:01:19):

Yes. I mean, that's our thing. That's what we love. Right?

Evelyne (00:01:23):

Yes! A hundred percent.

Daniella (00:01:24):

And you see, because... And this is why I get so frustrated when people fight against diversity so much, is only because you see the same stories, the same themes-

Evelyne (00:01:35):

The same white boys.

Daniella (00:01:35):

The same tropes, yeah.

Evelyne (00:01:36):

The same farm boys, the same-

Daniella (00:01:38):

Overpowered farm boys.

Evelyne (00:01:41):

Ugh. It's the same thing every time.

Daniella (00:01:42):

Constantly.

Evelyne (00:01:42):

Oh my God.

Daniella (00:01:43):

And so to have a book like this that's so different, maybe some of the powers are familiar, but the way that you get them is different. And they are according to your bloodline, which you've seen before, but it's clan powers, which is really interesting. So I found the world building to be probably the best part of this for me because it was so fascinating to see something so completely different than what I'm used to.

(00:02:10):

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I would give it a four. I hardly ever give fives, honestly. I really should be more generous.

Evelyne (00:02:16):

I actually very rarely ever give fives, like ever.

Daniella (00:02:20):

Yeah, that's great. I mean, I really did enjoy this book, and I'm probably going to read the second one. I do have it on my library. It's on hold so I can check it out.

Evelyne (00:02:28):

I've actually already read it.

Daniella (00:02:30):

Oh, good. Okay. Interesting. I mean, I do give fives.

(00:02:35):

The only thing that holds me back I think, it was a very slow burn for me in the beginning. I had a hard time connecting with Maggie, the main character, for, I would say, at least the first third. But once I did, I actually really like her after I understood better why she was the way she was, but it did take me quite a while to get into it.

Evelyne (00:03:02):

She is a loner, and you feel that from the very beginning.

Daniella (00:03:06):

Immediately, she is the outsider.

Evelyne (00:03:08):

And the way that Roanhorse writes her pushes you away as a reader too. And it's brilliant actually, the way she does it, and it's one of the reasons why I actually really like her is because even as a reader, you're like, "Wow, she is so closed off." I mean, everything about her was closed off. It was amazing how she did that.

Daniella (00:03:32):

Yeah, she doesn't let anyone in, even the reader. Even the reader where you're like, "I'm supposed to be in your mind and you're somehow shutting me out."

Evelyne (00:03:39):

Yeah. No, it was... Yeah, amazing how she did that because she had literally just shut down.

Daniella (00:03:47):

Yep, yep. But that was one of the things I appreciated too is she had something so traumatic happen to her at such a young age, and I liked that there were consequences. Again, this is something that I don't think... I think it's getting addressed more now mostly because more women are starting to become more popular, so you're seeing some of these women who are like, "Trauma exists and there are consequences and we have to deal with it," but a lot of these main characters now are starting to go through these traumatic events and process them. And you see that a lot more, which I appreciate because everybody has some trauma. There is no person that hasn't lived through something traumatic.

Evelyne (00:04:32):

No, absolutely. And the way... So it wasn't just that she had trauma. I mean, she had trauma from before because... Okay, so again, spoiler warning. So now if you have listened to our previous podcast, you know we give every thing away.

Daniella (00:04:49):

Everything.

Evelyne (00:04:50):

Every tiny detail will be discussed and we will give everything away, so if you do not want every tiny detail, go read the book first and then come back.

Daniella (00:04:59):

Yes, please.

Evelyne (00:05:00):

And there will be profanity.

Daniella (00:05:02):

Yes, also.

Evelyne (00:05:03):

I swear like a sailor a lot of the time, so just expect that, especially if I've been drinking, which I have been. So, yes.

(00:05:12):

So Maggie, who is the main character, at 16, watches her grandmother viciously murdered, just get viciously, bloodily murdered.

Daniella (00:05:28):

Yeah, like butchered for eating.

Evelyne (00:05:31):

Yes, in front of her. It is violent and graphic and awful.

Daniella (00:05:36):

It's horrible.

Evelyne (00:05:37):

And she watches that happen, but at the same time, she's rescued by God.

Daniella (00:05:46):

Yeah, essentially.

Evelyne (00:05:46):

Essentially.

Daniella (00:05:48):

Well, an immortal. Right?

Evelyne (00:05:50):

Yes. So she latches onto him.

Daniella (00:05:55):

Yes. As you would. That's normal.

Evelyne (00:05:58):

Normal.

Daniella (00:05:58):

She's a 16-year-old girl.

Evelyne (00:06:00):

She is 16. She is a child.

Daniella (00:06:02):

She just saw a horrific murder of the one person she had in her life.

Evelyne (00:06:06):

Absolutely. Has lost everything.

Daniella (00:06:08):

So, of course. And this guy that saves her has the long flowing hair, and he has-

Evelyne (00:06:14):

He has wings, for God's sake!

Daniella (00:06:15):

Has wings and he has the lightning sword, and of course you're going to have a little idolatry happening, right?

Evelyne (00:06:21):

Absolutely, absolutely. You are an adolescent and you're just like, "Uh, okay."

Daniella (00:06:25):

For sure.

Evelyne (00:06:26):

And then he deigns to be like, "I notice you."

Daniella (00:06:31):

Yeah, you're not invisible to him. He sees you. And that's enough.

Evelyne (00:06:35):

That's it.

Daniella (00:06:36):

I mean, that's enough for you to say, "I am now yours. Do with me what you will."

Evelyne (00:06:40):

Exactly.

Daniella (00:06:41):

And that's essentially what happens. She follows him, he trains her how to fight. She kills a lot of things. And then he just leaves. Just leaves. Doesn't say anything, is just gone after making a kind of weird comment about, "What are you becoming?"

Evelyne (00:06:57):

It was really vague.

Daniella (00:06:58):

It was very vague.

Evelyne (00:06:59):

It was really vague.

Daniella (00:07:00):

And as someone who has lived through trauma and lost the only person she loved, that is something that you are going to think about over and over and over again. What did I do? What did he mean by that?

Evelyne (00:07:11):

And that is actually one of... So now we've hit on one of the big themes. We have abandonment and guilt and shame. So we got those three things, and they're just floating around in her system for the entire book. And he compounded all three of them.

Daniella (00:07:27):

All of them, all of them. And this was something that I actually really enjoyed was thinking about the power that a mentor has to shape who you are by just such an offhand comment.

Evelyne (00:07:40):

Absolutely.

Daniella (00:07:40):

Probably didn't even think about it again.

Evelyne (00:07:42):

And can I add, none of it was sexual.

Daniella (00:07:45):

None of it. I mean, she wanted it to be.

Evelyne (00:07:48):

Absolutely. But there was no sexual assault, no rape, none of that.

Daniella (00:07:53):

No. You don't need to have rape to make a story compelling.

Evelyne (00:07:55):

You don't need it. Male writers out there-

Daniella (00:07:55):

Can we stop making that a thing?

Evelyne (00:08:01):

You do not need nudity and you do not need sexual assault to cause trauma.

Daniella (00:08:06):

No, absolutely not.

Evelyne (00:08:08):

100% not necessary.

Daniella (00:08:10):

Absolutely not.

Evelyne (00:08:10):

As this book very readily proves.

Daniella (00:08:13):

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And it's just fascinating to me because you think about one offhand comment, and then he disappears, and she takes that so to heart that the next time that she's hunting monsters, and she's going to save this little girl, and she finds her getting attacked by this monster and she's like, "Well, you're bad now, so I have to kill you." I mean, she's internalized so much of what that one offhand comment was from her mentor that now she's just chopping off heads and it's terrible.

Evelyne (00:08:45):

Yeah, I know!

Daniella (00:08:45):

It's so awful.

Evelyne (00:08:49):

She's trying to make herself like a sociopath when she's not at all.

Daniella (00:08:55):

Not. And when you look at her choices throughout the book, she always chooses to protect, to save. That is what she does.

Evelyne (00:09:04):

Yes.

Daniella (00:09:04):

Okay, so we're getting a little ahead. Okay. So yes, so now she's on her own. She's a loner.

Evelyne (00:09:10):

So the opening is people need her help. She's a bounty hunter. She's supposed to be rescuing people. And she's living by herself in a trailer by herself, by choice. She has closed herself off from everybody because she just can't be around anybody.

Daniella (00:09:25):

She does have dogs.

Evelyne (00:09:26):

But yeah, she has a lot of those dogs and they were like her friends out there, and yeah, it was just her and her dogs. And they came out and they're like, "Look, we got this problem. Big problem." And that guy was creepy. He was a creepy, creepy dude.

Daniella (00:09:41):

Super creepy. Okay, that's the other thing I wanted to mention. The monsters?

Evelyne (00:09:48):

So creepy.

Daniella (00:09:49):

So creepy and interesting because how often do you encounter... I mean, he's not even a zombie. He's not even a golem. He's like a... I don't know.

Evelyne (00:09:57):

A thing, he's a thing!

Daniella (00:10:02):

A fake person with all molars in his mouth.

Evelyne (00:10:03):

I know!

Daniella (00:10:05):

It's like, "I don't know what to do with that."

Evelyne (00:10:07):

My brain was just going, "Nope, nope."

Daniella (00:10:10):

Yeah, right? And the reason that they attack the throat and stuff? So fascinating, yes.

Evelyne (00:10:16):

I know. But my whole brain was going, "Nope."

Daniella (00:10:19):

Yeah, creepy.

Evelyne (00:10:19):

The whole time-

Daniella (00:10:20):

So creepy.

Evelyne (00:10:22):

"Nope." And yeah, so you're thinking, "She's there, she's going to save her. She's there, she's going to save her," and then you're like, "Oh, fuck. Oh, no. Fuck!"

Daniella (00:10:35):

Yeah, that was intense.

Evelyne (00:10:38):

It starts off that way.

Daniella (00:10:40):

Yeah, yeah. It is a violent book.

Evelyne (00:10:44):

It starts off that way! And then you're like, "Shit!" So she has to decapitate this little girl-

Daniella (00:10:53):

And bring her head back to her family.

Evelyne (00:10:55):

Yes, and not to leave because she takes the head away.

Daniella (00:11:00):

Yeah.

Evelyne (00:11:01):

Oh, no. She takes the monster's head.

Daniella (00:11:02):

No, she takes the monster's head too. She takes them both. Yeah, because she wants them to have something to bury.

(00:11:08):

See, this is why I'm constantly going, "Girl, you're struggling so much with thinking that you're a bad person, but a bad person wouldn't bring something back to give closure to the family." That's just not how that would work. They wouldn't care, but you care enough that you carry this all the way back down the mountain and you're like, "Here, couldn't save her, but now you have something to bury, so see you later."

Evelyne (00:11:33):

And then she takes it to one of my favorite people. I love him.

Daniella (00:11:38):

Tah.

Evelyne (00:11:39):

I wish he were my grandpa.

Daniella (00:11:41):

I know! I love him. I love him so much. And the reason, I think part of why I love him so much is because he loves her so much.

Evelyne (00:11:48):

Yes. And I don't think he would love her if she were soulless and evil-

Daniella (00:11:54):

That's exactly right.

Evelyne (00:11:55):

And just a killing machine.

Daniella (00:11:56):

He sees her.

Evelyne (00:11:57):

Yes.

Daniella (00:11:57):

He really just sees her and knows exactly what's in there and is just fully accepting and adopts her, essentially. He calls her, "Granddaughter."

Evelyne (00:12:07):

Yes.

Daniella (00:12:07):

So their relationship, their interaction, I was smiling the whole time. I was just smiling the whole time.

Evelyne (00:12:15):

While she's on her way there, though, we learn a little bit about Dinétah, where they live, and just the entire destruction of the United States essentially. It doesn't exist anymore.

Daniella (00:12:28):

Yeah. I mean, the nice thing is that Dinétah is now fully sovereign. It's not this performative that we kind of have now.

Evelyne (00:12:36):

Excellent, yep.

Daniella (00:12:39):

Which is great.

Evelyne (00:12:41):

Cheers.

Daniella (00:12:41):

Yeah, cheers to that. But yeah, I mean, this is fascinating because it is a post-apocalyptic story, and she talks about the big flood that happens that has basically put a huge amount of the United States underwater.

Evelyne (00:12:56):

And you'd think that there would be a lot of water around, but there's not. So it's a huge drought going on right now, but there was a big flood, lots of earthquakes, and a huge amount of water flooded the entirety of the United States. And while this was happening, the Indigenous people built a huge wall, basically around the entirety of the Diné reservation area.

Daniella (00:13:20):

Yep. And it's actually a really cool wall because each side is a different...

Evelyne (00:13:25):

Medium?

Daniella (00:13:26):

Like spiritual composition, right? One side is turquoise. I can't remember. I should have written it down. I should have it.

Evelyne (00:13:35):

It's not in my notes.

Daniella (00:13:36):

I know. It's not in my notes. I failed.

Evelyne (00:13:41):

I failed! It's really important. It's like magic.

Daniella (00:13:42):

It's so important! And it's fascinating. And it sounded beautiful.

Evelyne (00:13:45):

It did sound really pretty and gorgeous.

Daniella (00:13:47):

But I loved it because they were like, "We're taking care of ourselves. This is our world now and we're protected from the outside world." And there were energy wars, and there were all these things that happened as a consequence of this massive flood, and all the things that you would expect.

(00:14:03):

But yeah, so you learn that we're living in this kind of... She's driving this truck that barely works and there's no gas, and there's all these things. She's running on alcohol, basically, which I found really interesting. And just how she survives and what the reservation is like.

Evelyne (00:14:21):

And so what happened when they built this wall is that magic, old Indigenous magic, came back and all of their old gods came back, or immortals came back, and all of that came back, and their clan powers came back.

Daniella (00:14:38):

Yes!

Evelyne (00:14:39):

But how their clan powers are activated is through extreme trauma.

Daniella (00:14:46):

I know, which is so unfortunate.

Evelyne (00:14:47):

It really is. And every person you see who has these, even in the second book, I'm just like, "Oh, that means you went through something. Oh no."

Daniella (00:15:02):

Yeah, I know.

Evelyne (00:15:02):

And it's just like... So it just, oh, it just breaks my heart.

Daniella (00:15:03):

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, for sure.

(00:15:07):

So she's going down to this town where Tah lives because she doesn't know what this monster is. She's never seen it before. This is something new. She's never seen it in all her time that she was training with Neizghání.

Evelyne (00:15:22):

The war god, by the way, that's his name. We didn't say it before.

Daniella (00:15:24):

Oh, yes. Sorry. Mentor guy, immortal, hair, wings-

Evelyne (00:15:30):

The guy with the sword of lighting, Neizghání.

Daniella (00:15:30):

Lightning sword, yes. Neizghání. So she goes to Tah's house and Tah has a visitor, and it's the first time that Tah has had a visitor.

Evelyne (00:15:41):

A very nice, handsome, well-dressed visitor.

Daniella (00:15:46):

A super handsome, young visitor.

Evelyne (00:15:47):

Who is an excellent foil to Maggie, by the way, in every way.

Daniella (00:15:52):

He's super personable. He likes people.

Evelyne (00:15:54):

His clan powers are foils. I mean, everything about him is a foil to Maggie.

Daniella (00:15:59):

They are so complimentary for each other. And it's great because he is who he is, it kind of gets her out of her shell a little bit. And Tah is all about it. He's like, "Yes, you guys are partners now." And she's like, "No!"

Evelyne (00:16:11):

I loved it. She was immediately like, "Breaks!"

Daniella (00:16:14):

Yeah, like, "No, no, no."

Evelyne (00:16:16):

"I work alone. I do not need a partner. Who is this asshole?"

Daniella (00:16:19):

"Who is this guy?" Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne (00:16:22):

"What's happening?" And he's just like-

Daniella (00:16:23):

But he brought coffee.

Evelyne (00:16:25):

He did.

Daniella (00:16:25):

And he brought whiskey.

Evelyne (00:16:27):

He did.

Daniella (00:16:28):

And he brought sugar.

Evelyne (00:16:28):

But she's still like, "I will drink this, but he's not coming with me."

Daniella (00:16:31):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I really liked Kai who's the new guy, this grandson.

Evelyne (00:16:38):

Yes. Who has... His clan powers are healing, whereas hers are like death.

Daniella (00:16:42):

Yes. Oh, hers are like bloodlust and speed.

Evelyne (00:16:47):

And speed.

Daniella (00:16:48):

Super speed.

Evelyne (00:16:50):

She can kill people really fast. And it's just insane. People are just like... She just kills people really fast and they just stand there and go, "What happened?"

Daniella (00:17:02):

They don't even know they're dead. It's true though. And that was something that I enjoyed too because she talks about the bloodlust a little bit, and it's just like, "And then it just came over me, what best way to kill this person would be." And I'm just like, "That would be so disconcerting."

(00:17:19):

And she does, to her credit, she does find it disconcerting. She's like, "This is not... I don't want to do that. I don't want that knowledge, but my body is giving it to me anyway." It's really kind of messed up.

Evelyne (00:17:32):

It is. And she got this power at 16 and then an immortal person trained her to hone it since then. It's fucked up, people.

Daniella (00:17:42):

It's so fucked up.

Evelyne (00:17:46):

It's messed up. That is not okay.

Daniella (00:17:47):

So yeah, so then she's like, "Okay, fine. I guess this guy can go with me and we're going to go," because he knows the old stories. That's the whole point is that he might have some insight into what these monsters are and how to kill them and how to stop them.

Evelyne (00:18:00):

Now, keep in mind, her grandmother was killed in front of her, and then the one guy who she thought was going to be with her forever has just been like, "No, you're too weird and you kill people too much maybe"-

Daniella (00:18:11):

Peace out.

Evelyne (00:18:12):

Peace out. So now she's like, "I don't want to get attached to anybody. I don't know who you are." She's got some abandonment issues. She's got some trust issues.

Daniella (00:18:20):

Absolutely, yeah. So as they're leaving though, they run into "the law."

Evelyne (00:18:28):

Oh my god.

Daniella (00:18:31):

Longarm.

Evelyne (00:18:34):

Longarm!

Daniella (00:18:34):

Who is the worst.

Evelyne (00:18:36):

Worst!

Daniella (00:18:37):

The worst encapsulation of insecure masculinity ever. That's all I could think. Every time he said anything, anytime she even described him, I was like, "Okay, this guy is so insecure, I cannot handle it."

Evelyne (00:18:52):

But then Kai does something.

Daniella (00:18:54):

Yes. He talks him down.

Evelyne (00:18:56):

He talks him down.

Daniella (00:18:57):

He's like, "Hey, we're all friends here. We're just going to go."

Evelyne (00:19:01):

Did you just kind of get a little weird thing in your brain when that happened? Because I did. "Huh. That was really easy."

Daniella (00:19:08):

Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah, it was too easy. And I kept waiting actually. I think I've been trained too well by film and books, so I kept waiting for something to... I was like, "That was too easy. They're going to get them on the way out of town or something. There's going to be an ambush or something." And no, no, they just drive out of town.

Evelyne (00:19:25):

But I still had this thing. I had this little thing in the back of my brain going, "That was so fucking easy. Why was that so easy?" And so that was there floating around in the back of my head for a long time and we'll get back to that.

Daniella (00:19:35):

Yes, we will.

Evelyne (00:19:36):

And so they drove out of town and the whole car ride, he's just la la la la la la, happy, grumpy. Grumpy/sunshine, the whole way. The whole way. The whole trope was true. She sat there glowering and telling him to basically shut his mouth the whole way and he was just ignoring her the whole way. And it was hilarious.

Daniella (00:20:02):

It was hilarious. I did love their interaction, that first drive, especially.

Evelyne (00:20:06):

I loved everything about their chemistry.

Daniella (00:20:09):

Yeah. She would say something just really just like, "God, just stop it," he'd be like, "Okay, what about this?"

Evelyne (00:20:13):

Because so often in romances, the grumpy/sunshine, the grump is the guy-

Daniella (00:20:22):

It's so true.

Evelyne (00:20:22):

And the girl is the sunshine, and it was the reverse, and it was amazing. And I loved it!

Daniella (00:20:26):

That was one of the things I like because there were the clan powers that each of these people have-

Evelyne (00:20:33):

Was reversed.

Daniella (00:20:34):

Have been reversed, yeah. Typically, when you see a male writer, especially, the masculine traits that we would expect are the bloodlust and the super speed, and then the woman would have the, I don't know what you would call it, but the medicine, the healing.

Evelyne (00:20:52):

And the gift of gab.

Daniella (00:20:54):

The gift of gab, the silver tongue, the persuasion. So it was nice to see those reversed and have a little bit of a different spin on it.

Evelyne (00:21:02):

It was so fun. I loved everything about their chemistry in this book. And it was what they call a slow burn, right?

Daniella (00:21:11):

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Evelyne (00:21:12):

And I usually hate slow burns.

Daniella (00:21:14):

I actually really like slow burns.

Evelyne (00:21:16):

I liked it, especially in this book because she was so damaged and it would've felt so inhonest and dishonest.

Daniella (00:21:25):

Yeah. I like "inhonest," I think we should go with it. But no-

Evelyne (00:21:31):

It's not a true word. It's not real.

Daniella (00:21:33):

It is now. We're writers, so it is now. No, I totally agree. And it was nice because she had that time, and I think that he recognized, as a healer, what she needed was this slow build. She needed the time to come to this decision on her own. She could not be forced into it. She could not be rushed into it because it wouldn't work. She needed to be able to heal enough that she could take that step herself. And I loved that. I thought that was great.

(00:22:04):

And I do love the slow burn. I think it's great. I love the ratcheting tension. It just keeps going up and up and up. I love that. So for me, this was great. This was cat nip.

Evelyne (00:22:14):

I hate slow burns.

Daniella (00:22:18):

You're like, "Just get to the point already!"

Evelyne (00:22:20):

I hate slow burns. I'm just like, if by 25%, there isn't some kind of make out at least, I'm just like, "Fuck, why am I even reading this book?" As much as I hate slow burns, it would not have fit.

Daniella (00:22:32):

No, it would've felt unrealistic.

Evelyne (00:22:34):

Disingenuous. It would've felt untrue to her character.

Daniella (00:22:38):

Forced.

Evelyne (00:22:38):

And I would've been pissed. I would've been like, "What is this?"

Daniella (00:22:42):

Yeah. It would've turned me off from the whole book. I would've been like, "Oh, this is not working for me."

Evelyne (00:22:45):

So no, that whole car ride...

Daniella (00:22:48):

Yeah. Oh, it was so great. It was so great. I loved it so much. And he just seemed so comfortable. He's just like, "Whatever."

Evelyne (00:22:54):

And then they had to sleep outside, and he's like, "So what are we doing? We camping?"

Daniella (00:23:01):

Yeah. And she's sitting there going, "I can't protect you if you don't be smarter. I don't know what to do with this."

Evelyne (00:23:05):

I know. "Can you not be like you for a minute? I'm trying to keep you safe, dude. Just shush."

Daniella (00:23:17):

It's so good.

Evelyne (00:23:17):

And then they get to the library and my heart broke because of the library.

Daniella (00:23:20):

Oh, I know. I know. And this is the first time, this is when Rebecca Roanhorse really starts to sow the seeds of the red herring with the... She's like, "Oh, what's that smell? It smells like ozone. It smells familiar. What is that? Oh, it smells like lightening." And you start to go, "Oh, why? Why is there lightning around this town?"

Evelyne (00:23:40):

Who's the bad guy?

Daniella (00:23:42):

Yeah. And you do question. I think that we've also been trained that immortals often lose their mortality. They lose their humanity. They lose their ability to value life. And so I did think, for a large portion of this book, that Neizghání was the problem. I really thought, "Wow, this guy has hit his limit. He's been alive for centuries. And he's like, 'I'm done with humanity. You all suck.'"

(00:24:11):

And honestly, I can't blame him because a large portion of people do suck. But this is where you start to see that. She starts to just plant little seeds here and there. Right?

Evelyne (00:24:24):

I think also, you forget, you read books and you forget that there's such a thing as an unreliable narrator, and you get so used to trusting the narrator.

Daniella (00:24:37):

And you want to trust the narrator because they're your friend. They're in your mind. You're like, "We are friends."

Evelyne (00:24:42):

Yes. And so you're reading and you forget that she is seeing things through a cracked lens, and she is seeing things through her trauma, and she is seeing things through what she wants and her anger.

Daniella (00:24:58):

And her hurt, yeah.

Evelyne (00:24:59):

Yeah. So she smells that ozone, and she's so desperate, and then at the same time, she's so pissed off. And rightfully. I'm not saying she's wrong.

Daniella (00:25:09):

No. And I think that that's why you're so ready to believe her because you're also thinking, "God, this guy really messed you up, and this guy must be terrible. What is wrong with this guy?"

Evelyne (00:25:18):

And Kai is like, "Uh, are you sure?"

Daniella (00:25:22):

"Or maybe..." Yeah.

Evelyne (00:25:25):

And then she's just like, "I am sure!" And he's like, "But..."

Daniella (00:25:28):

"Okay, but..." Exactly. No, and then, oh, and I love this too, because he goes in to the library and he finds the CDs where all the oral histories have been recorded. And I was like, "Oh, my old heart is so happy right now."

Evelyne (00:25:46):

I would've given anything to have gone into the books and been able to listen to those oral histories and just sat there.

Daniella (00:25:57):

That would've been amazing, yeah.

Evelyne (00:25:58):

I would've died of happiness.

Daniella (00:26:00):

Yeah. That would've been amazing.

Evelyne (00:26:01):

I literally... And at the same time, I'm going... And he starts gathering as many as he can. I'm like, "Yes, yes! Gather them all! Put them all in the car!"

Daniella (00:26:11):

Take them all with you!

Evelyne (00:26:14):

"Take them with you!" Because the thought of them just sitting there and losing all of them.

Daniella (00:26:19):

Yeah, it was heartbreaking.

Evelyne (00:26:20):

It was so heartbreaking. Oh, I wanted to cry. And that's the other thing is because you're sitting there and you're like, "It's a post-apocalyptic thing and there's no one... Everyone's dead."

Daniella (00:26:31):

Yeah, this whole town, the whole town that they're in, everybody is dead. And they see all of these angry spirits, and they're afraid of them because those angry spirits can possess you. So they're thinking, "We are in big trouble already, but we're safe in the library."

(00:26:49):

But yeah, just having all of those books and all of that history just sitting there rotting is such... Oh, it's so upsetting. Yeah, all that history.

Evelyne (00:26:59):

All that history.

Daniella (00:26:59):

Yeah. What little they've managed to keep-

Evelyne (00:27:04):

I know! I was like, "Oh, no, it's just... Ah!"

Daniella (00:27:05):

I know, I know. So then they're trying to leave the library and these spirits attacked.

Evelyne (00:27:09):

Well, okay. So they think that it might be Neizghání, and so they-

Daniella (00:27:14):

Yeah. I don't know that Kai ever really believed it.

Evelyne (00:27:16):

He didn't. He let her kind of think that he did.

Daniella (00:27:18):

Because she needed it. She needed it.

Evelyne (00:27:20):

Yeah. But they also, they latched onto something else, too. They heard something called... It was the fire. The fire stick or something? Fire drill.

Daniella (00:27:31):

Yeah, fire drill. Yeah.

Evelyne (00:27:33):

You're like, "Okay, well, that seems important." So she learns about his other clan power, which is fire.

Daniella (00:27:41):

Well, it's not just fire though. It's like elements. Right?

Evelyne (00:27:43):

Yeah.

Daniella (00:27:44):

So he can control the elements because he harnesses the wind and asks her for a lighter and lights the wind on fire.

Evelyne (00:27:53):

On fire!

Daniella (00:27:54):

And it was badass.

Evelyne (00:27:55):

It was.

Daniella (00:27:58):

I'm sitting there going, "What just happened?"

Evelyne (00:28:02):

I know. He lights the wind on fucking fire.

Daniella (00:28:04):

It was totally badass. And this was why Tah was trying so hard to get them to be partners. He was like, "This guy is really going to be important for us later."

Evelyne (00:28:13):

She couldn't see the ghosts. He could.

Daniella (00:28:16):

Yeah, he could.

Evelyne (00:28:16):

And he burned their motherfucking asses with the wind. It was insane.

Daniella (00:28:22):

It was insane. It was so cool!

Evelyne (00:28:23):

It was amazing. She can kill people, but she can't kill ghosts.

Daniella (00:28:30):

No. And the best she had was sacred corn pollen was what she was using.

Evelyne (00:28:35):

And that works in small bursts. It's like-

Daniella (00:28:38):

Yeah, but you can't have enough. There were so many.

Evelyne (00:28:40):

Yeah, so many.

Daniella (00:28:41):

There was no way they were going to have enough to get out of there.

Evelyne (00:28:44):

It was this insane power that he had.

Daniella (00:28:47):

Yeah, it was intense.

Evelyne (00:28:48):

And it wore him out. I mean, it was like, that was it. That's all he got for a while.

Daniella (00:28:52):

That was it. He could do it once.

Evelyne (00:28:54):

But it was like, he's like, "Okay." He said, "All right, I'm going to do this. Stand back." And then he lit the world on fire.

Daniella (00:29:01):

Yeah, it was crazy. So impressive.

Evelyne (00:29:05):

And then she's like, "The fuck was that? You need to tell me you can do shit like that before you do shit like that."

Daniella (00:29:14):

And he was so just kind of like, "Oh, it's not that big a deal."

Evelyne (00:29:16):

I know!

Daniella (00:29:19):

"I just harnessed the wind and then you gave me the lighter. I can't make fire." And it's like my dude, you're missing the point here.

Evelyne (00:29:25):

And then halfway through the book, he's like, "I'm trying to bring rain back." He's like, "I just want to stop this drought, but it's no big deal." I'm like, "Dude!"

Daniella (00:29:45):

No big deal. Ah, I know. I know! I loved Kai so much. I loved him so much.

Evelyne (00:29:48):

I know. He had no ego whatsoever. It was amazing. I loved him so much.

(00:29:54):

All right. So they go out and then back at her trailer, who do they run into?

Daniella (00:30:01):

Oh, Coyote.

Evelyne (00:30:02):

Oh, Coyote. Now, I don't know very much about Indigenous culture at all and I don't know very much about individual tribes and how they... But I do know, I do know one thing and that is Coyote is not great.

Daniella (00:30:18):

He's an agent of chaos as far as I can... That's what my understanding is as a person from outside.

Evelyne (00:30:25):

I have read a kid's book that I got traveling through the reservation in New Mexico that was written by Indigenous people, and it was basically him getting his comeuppance, which was great, by crows. I loved it.

Daniella (00:30:39):

I love that. Love that.

Evelyne (00:30:40):

He wanted to learn how to fly and so they're like, "Sure, come. We will teach you how to fly," and then they basically put feathers in him and it hurt a lot. And they're like, "Flap your arms, you'll fly." And he's like, "Okay!" And then he falls into mud. And that's how he got his colors. It was great. I loved everything about it.

Daniella (00:31:00):

That's hilarious.

Evelyne (00:31:01):

Yeah, he's like the trickster. Trickster, but not nice, mean trickster. Not someone you trust. And Maggie knows this.

Daniella (00:31:10):

Yes.

Evelyne (00:31:11):

And she does not like him.

Daniella (00:31:13):

No. She's mean to him.

Evelyne (00:31:15):

She sees him and she's like, "Get the fuck out of my house."

Daniella (00:31:17):

Yeah, "What the fuck are you doing here? Get out."

Evelyne (00:31:20):

And he's like, "Maggie."

Daniella (00:31:21):

In his really fancy suit.

Evelyne (00:31:26):

He's like, "Maggie, baby!" You're like, "Ew." Right away, "Ew." I'm like, "Oh, no. Stop talking. Get out of her house." The way she wrote him, the way the Roanhorse wrote him, I was immediately like, "Ew, ew. Cringe, cringe. Gross. Get out of her house. I don't like you."

Daniella (00:31:44):

No, absolutely not. Please leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. He is definitely not trustworthy. He is problematic to the core.

Evelyne (00:31:55):

Absolutely.

Daniella (00:31:56):

And you don't want to have anything to do with him. As much as possible, you want to be like, "Ah, we're done here. Please leave."

Evelyne (00:32:01):

No, "Fuck off. Get out."

Daniella (00:32:04):

And she tries. Maggie tries.

Evelyne (00:32:06):

Absolutely. And then Kai, Kai thinks he can sweet talk him out the door. I love him. I love him. It's like, Kai, Kai, no. Listen-

Daniella (00:32:15):

A literal god, what are you doing?

Evelyne (00:32:17):

And then Maggie's just like, "Oh God. Kai, shut up."

Daniella (00:32:18):

I know! The facepalm.

Evelyne (00:32:18):

I know.

Daniella (00:32:19):

You can just see her going, "Oh my God."

Evelyne (00:32:29):

"Oh no, Kai, stop talking. Oh no, you're talking. Oh, no. Now he's in my house. Oh, no."

Daniella (00:32:32):

But what are you supposed to do? He doesn't want to leave. You can't force him. And you don't want to make him too mad because he could really do damage to you.

Evelyne (00:32:41):

And so now he's in your house. And Maggie's like, "Look, I'm going to go change my clothes. It's been a long fucking day. I'll be right fucking back. Sit down! I'm mad about it! I'll be right back."

Daniella (00:32:52):

Yeah, she makes them dinner.

Evelyne (00:32:56):

I know. And Kai's just like, "It's all right."

Daniella (00:32:58):

"Everything's fine!" She's like, "Ugh, why?"

Evelyne (00:33:04):

And Kai was like, "I like this guy." She's like, "Oh, shut up."

Daniella (00:33:08):

She's so cranky.

Evelyne (00:33:11):

I know. She's so cranky. I just love Kai and Maggie so much. So much. Oh, God.

Daniella (00:33:15):

Yeah, so good. So good.

Evelyne (00:33:18):

I know. So he lets it slip that the fire drill is at a place called Shalimar, which sounds-

Daniella (00:33:26):

Amazing!

Evelyne (00:33:27):

Amazing. Yeah, I don't want to go there.

Daniella (00:33:29):

No, it sounds terrifying.

Evelyne (00:33:30):

Yeah, would never go there in a million years.

Daniella (00:33:35):

Couldn't pay me enough.

Evelyne (00:33:36):

But it sounds really interesting in theory. And even when he mentions it, Kai's like, "Oh, shit."

Daniella (00:33:41):

Yeah, problematic.

Evelyne (00:33:45):

Even though he's been there.

Daniella (00:33:46):

He has.

Evelyne (00:33:48):

But he knows that Maggie's not going to like it because he knows Maggie, which made me like him even more.

Daniella (00:33:56):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that he understands Maggie in a way that a lot of people do not. And it's coming outside of her comfort zone that makes her be more an antagonistic and more standoffish because she's not comfortable, she doesn't feel safe, she doesn't know what the rules are, she doesn't like it. And I can relate. I totally understand it.

Evelyne (00:34:20):

She's put up walls to protect herself, which is what you do after trauma.

Daniella (00:34:24):

Absolutely.

Evelyne (00:34:24):

Which is completely understandable. And when you go to Shalimar, they take them down. Everybody sees who you are.

Daniella (00:34:31):

You don't get to keep those anymore.

Evelyne (00:34:33):

And he knew that that would not be okay with her. And he knew that she wasn't ready for that.

Daniella (00:34:42):

And he was Right. I mean, I would say he was right.

Evelyne (00:34:46):

Yeah. It was a little early for her to do that. I mean, because they magically, literally magically take off any kind of... I mean, they see who your clan is, they see what your clan powers are.

Daniella (00:34:57):

You can see, like the people that had the pointy ears and stuff, and she was like, "Oh, why are they wearing those?" And he is like, "No, no, those are their ears." Yeah.

Evelyne (00:35:06):

And she's like, "Wait, do I look different?" And he's like, "Yeah."

Daniella (00:35:15):

Yeah. "Uh, no, no, you look exactly the same."

Evelyne (00:35:15):

"No, you're totally normal. Yeah."

Daniella (00:35:15):

"Yeah, totally normal."

Evelyne (00:35:15):

"Yeah, totally fine. I don't see anything weird about you all."

Daniella (00:35:15):

"It's all good."

Evelyne (00:35:15):

"It's fine."

Daniella (00:35:19):

"Don't worry about it."

Evelyne (00:35:21):

"Totally normal. Just the same."

Daniella (00:35:22):

But before they go to Shalimar because it's in the same city that Tah lives, what happens?

Evelyne (00:35:30):

Big fire.

Daniella (00:35:31):

They run into Longarm because there's a big fire where Tah lives at Tah's house, and Maggie is devastated.

Evelyne (00:35:42):

Well, because they think Tah's dead.

Daniella (00:35:44):

Yes. Both Kai and Maggie think Tah has died.

Evelyne (00:35:47):

Tah is dead. And so now, her abandonment issues have been compounded. She thinks the only person that she had left-

Daniella (00:35:54):

Is gone.

Evelyne (00:35:55):

Is gone. And she thinks who's done it? Because she left the head there.

Daniella (00:35:59):

Right. So she obviously thinks that it's Neizghání, yeah.

Evelyne (00:36:03):

Yep. Because of trauma. So she thinks Neizghání has done that.

Daniella (00:36:10):

What's funny is that I know she thought that, but I never really thought that.

Evelyne (00:36:15):

I never for one minute thought that.

Daniella (00:36:18):

I don't know who did it. I didn't have any idea who did it. But I was like, "Oh, I feel like you're jumping to conclusions a little bit here."

Evelyne (00:36:25):

I might have conceded that he died. I never thought Neizghání did it.

Daniella (00:36:31):

No, I thought he was dead. For sure. I thought he had died, but I didn't think Neizghání did it.

Evelyne (00:36:36):

No.

Daniella (00:36:37):

And then she's only there. Kai's like, "Let me just see what I can find out. We just want to confirm if he's okay or not." So she's in the crowd waiting for him and the crowd's talking about it. And they're like, "Yeah, we don't think he got out. We think that he's in there and he died," and she's devastated. And then what does she see?

Evelyne (00:36:58):

Longarm.

Daniella (00:37:00):

Longarm dragging Kai away down an alley, basically, out of sight. And she's like, "Oh, shit. Not cool. This is not going to end well for anyone." So she follows because she knows that Kai's not a fighter. That's not what he does.

Evelyne (00:37:16):

It's not in his skillset. I mean, he can set the elements on fire, but he doesn't kill people.

Daniella (00:37:21):

Well, and that's what he said. He's like, "That's not what I do." He's a healer. That goes against everything that he believes, that goes against everything that he is. His core is about healing people, so you just don't hurt people when that is what you are.

Evelyne (00:37:34):

Right.

Daniella (00:37:35):

So she finds them. Longarm is beating the shit out of Kai. He is giving him a beat down, and then he pulls his gun, he's going to shoot him in the head.

Evelyne (00:37:47):

Now, this is where her trauma and her abandonment and all of her anger get focused into this one man, and he becomes the embodiment of all of that.

Daniella (00:38:02):

All of it. All of it, yep.

Evelyne (00:38:04):

And he pays the price.

Daniella (00:38:06):

Oh, yeah. He dies with no face. She shoots it off, clean off, it's gone. And then she takes Kai and is like, "We need to get out of here." And he's like, "Uh, yeah." And they go to my favorite place with my favorite people. They go to Grace Goodacre's place.

Evelyne (00:38:23):

Yeah, okay, Grace is great.

Daniella (00:38:24):

Grace is great.

Evelyne (00:38:25):

No, that whole bar was. I could live there.

Daniella (00:38:28):

So great! I loved it. It was like this... I don't know, what would you call it? Demilitarized zone?

Evelyne (00:38:34):

Yeah.

Daniella (00:38:34):

Where everybody can go. Nobody creates any problems.

Evelyne (00:38:38):

It was like that one bar in Supernatural.

Daniella (00:38:39):

Yes, yes! I know what you're talking about. Yes!

Evelyne (00:38:43):

Yes. Any Supernatural fan knows what we're talking about. There was that one bar in Supernatural. But yes. So Grace was great, and it was Grace Goodacre, and her kids were Rissa and Clive. And you go there and everything about them felt safe. And I could live there. I would live there happily.

Daniella (00:39:03):

Absolutely. I'd be like, "Yes. Can I have a job? I would like to stay here."

Evelyne (00:39:06):

"I will clean bathrooms and I will scrub floors."

Daniella (00:39:10):

"What do you need? I will guard the gate. Yeah, please let me know. I just don't want to leave here." Yeah, but I loved it too because she, Grace specifically didn't trust Maggie because previous interactions have not been great.

Evelyne (00:39:26):

Maggie brings trouble.

Daniella (00:39:28):

Because she's a little bit of a hothead. She wants to go on the offensive. She doesn't want to be defensive. And I understand that. That's a very human response. But Grace is like, "You bring trouble. You can stay here one night. Kai needs to heal up. I get that. That's fine. But after that, you're gone. I cannot have you here."

Evelyne (00:39:47):

"You bring trouble. My place is not about trouble. It's about safety."

Daniella (00:39:50):

Exactly.

Evelyne (00:39:51):

She has made a safe place in a place that is not safe.

Daniella (00:39:54):

Exactly.

Evelyne (00:39:56):

And I love her for that.

Daniella (00:39:57):

Oh, absolutely. And I actually really liked Grace because she had this very kind of understated humor about her. She was just very confident in who she was.

Evelyne (00:40:06):

And practical. Totally practical.

Daniella (00:40:07):

She ran a tight ship. Yeah, I loved her.

Evelyne (00:40:09):

Efficient. I loved her so much.

Daniella (00:40:11):

Yeah, I loved her.

Evelyne (00:40:12):

And I loved her kids.

Daniella (00:40:12):

Oh, yeah. So when Clive, her son, came to her... Because Clive and Rissa, they're twins. So Clive comes to Maggie and says, "Hey, we just found out that there are reportings of these monsters. We don't know what the deal is but we're going to go check it out." And Maggie's like, "I'm coming with you because I know what these monsters are, and they're going to kick your ass. You are not prepared for this." And Clive is a little offended, but also grateful because he knows that Maggie is a monster hunter.

(00:40:39):

So they go and there are so many monsters. So, so many.

Evelyne (00:40:48):

So many.

Daniella (00:40:48):

And you think... There was one point where I thought, "Wow. So they all just went here to die? They're all just going to die. I don't know how this is going to work out well." And of course, Maggie is a badass.

Evelyne (00:41:02):

Well, yeah. But so is Kai.

Daniella (00:41:05):

Kai, yeah.

Evelyne (00:41:07):

He burns the fuck out of them.

Daniella (00:41:08):

He lights the wind on fire again.

Evelyne (00:41:11):

Burns the fuck out of them. But yeah, if it weren't for all of them working together...

Daniella (00:41:17):

They would never have escaped. And Rissa gets injured.

Evelyne (00:41:21):

Yes, and Grace is pissed.

Daniella (00:41:24):

But Maggie makes the choice. She's like, "You need to get Rissa out of here." And this is why I know that Maggie, deep down, is a good person because she's like, "You need to get Rissa out of here. I will hold them off as long as I can." She immediately makes that choice. And she's not thinking about... She knows she's going to die. There's no way that she's going to fight all these monsters by herself.

Evelyne (00:41:43):

And this is why also Grace comes around to her.

Daniella (00:41:47):

Absolutely.

Evelyne (00:41:47):

Because Grace acknowledges, "Okay, you saved my children."

Daniella (00:41:52):

Yeah, and you didn't need to do that. You could have gotten yourself out and you would've been fine.

Evelyne (00:41:56):

Absolutely.

Daniella (00:41:57):

She could have run away, used her super speed and run away, and she would've been fine. But she made the choice. It's like, "Nope, you got to get her out of here. You guys leave. I'm going to take care of this. I'm going to hold them off for as long as I can."

(00:42:10):

And yeah, Grace is like, "You can stay here however long you want. You're family now. We love you here." And she doesn't know what to do with that.

Evelyne (00:42:19):

She cannot handle it because she has dealt with so much loss and so much betrayal and so much of that for so long. And I can totally get this. She cannot handle love. And she cannot handle thanks.

Daniella (00:42:34):

She doesn't think she deserves it.

Evelyne (00:42:35):

She doesn't. That shame and that guilt-

Daniella (00:42:38):

Inherently, she does not think that she deserves to be loved.

Evelyne (00:42:41):

She doesn't.

Daniella (00:42:42):

And accepted. And that is the trauma talking. That is also Neizghání talking. Right?

Evelyne (00:42:48):

Yes.

Daniella (00:42:49):

That is all these people in her life, all these people being scared of her, the Thirsty Boys. Even the leader of the Thirsty Boys is like, "You terrify me." And she's like, "We used to work together. I've never hurt you. I don't know why I'm suddenly this scary person." But everybody she interacts with has this element of fear to them, except for Grace now because she's like, "You're my family." And Kai.

Evelyne (00:43:13):

And Kai.

Daniella (00:43:13):

Yep. Kai has never shown any fear of her.

Evelyne (00:43:16):

Any fear ever. None. Ever.

Daniella (00:43:18):

Not once. Even after she shot, literally shot the face of of Longarm.

Evelyne (00:43:24):

I know. Never once.

Daniella (00:43:25):

He was like, "Nope. You saved my life."

Evelyne (00:43:28):

Never once shown any kind of fear. He never showed any fear of Coyote and that's a crazy.

Daniella (00:43:33):

Yeah, that's just asking for trouble I think.

Evelyne (00:43:35):

I don't think he has any sense of self-preservation whatsoever.

Daniella (00:43:38):

I don't think Maggie thinks that either. She's like, "Kai, you're going to just die one day because you don't understand how the world works."

Evelyne (00:43:45):

For real.

Daniella (00:43:47):

No, okay. So this gets to my favorite part because Clive, so he had all of these costumes and clothes available, and he dresses her up as a monster slayer.

Evelyne (00:43:59):

She was very uncomfortable.

Daniella (00:44:00):

So they can go to Shalimar. And I thought it was pretty awesome, actually.

Evelyne (00:44:05):

And that outfit, she was so uncomfortable, and she's just like, "Really? I can't, I can't..."

Daniella (00:44:09):

Yeah. "I can't really move in this. How am I supposed to fight?"

Evelyne (00:44:13):

"Where are my weapons supposed to go?"

Daniella (00:44:15):

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne (00:44:17):

"I have too much skin showing."

Daniella (00:44:19):

Exactly. "My hair is in my face."

Evelyne (00:44:21):

And of course, Kai's practically drooling on the floor.

Daniella (00:44:24):

Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Evelyne (00:44:25):

And then they're at Shalimar, which is like a casino fight club.

Daniella (00:44:29):

It's like anything you want it to be.

Evelyne (00:44:32):

I guess?

Daniella (00:44:33):

Yeah, because okay. So she gets there, and I love this about her because the first thing she does is, to the doorman, is like, "We need to see this person. Let me see her." And he's just like, "What the fuck?"

Evelyne (00:44:49):

I know. And Kai's just like, "Whoa, slow your roll."

Daniella (00:44:54):

Yeah, like, "This is not how we get in here."

Evelyne (00:44:55):

"You need to let me talk." And she's like, "The fuck? The fuck I do!" And he's like, "No, you know, shh. You really need to let me talk right now."

Daniella (00:45:06):

And even I had this moment of, girl, you need to just stop.

Evelyne (00:45:12):

I know! And you know I am the bluntest person.

Daniella (00:45:15):

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But there is a time for subtlety. I'm the least subtle person you will ever meet.

Evelyne (00:45:21):

There is a time for like, "Hi. I would just like to go inside, please."

Daniella (00:45:26):

Exactly.

Evelyne (00:45:26):

I mean, literally the bluntest person in the world, I will tell you to your face, "Girl, you can't wear that. Your boobs are hanging out."

Daniella (00:45:37):

100%. But I love it because Kai just takes her aside and is like, "Maybe I take the lead here. They can hear everything we're saying. Did you see the ears on that guy? They're everywhere. So maybe you just let me do my thing. I've been here before." And he was so sweet about it. And so just like-

Evelyne (00:45:58):

I know. He was trying so hard not to be like, "I'm better than you at this, but I'm better than you at this, so you need to let me lead." And she was so pissed off.

Daniella (00:46:09):

I know! Partly because she knew he was right.

Evelyne (00:46:12):

I know! She was so mad that he was right, but she also knew that was right. And so she's like, "Fine."

Daniella (00:46:18):

"Fine," Yeah.

(00:46:23):

So we get down because we've learned from Coyote that Mósí has this fire drill and she might be willing to give it up. So she's trying to meet up with this Mósí, who seems to be the embodiment of cat is what I interpreted it as.

Evelyne (00:46:42):

Yes. And how much did you love all the little rodents hanging on her ceiling?

Daniella (00:46:45):

Oh my god. The whole thing was so great, where it's just like, "Oh no, those are just what they've brought me and I want to display them because I'm proud like a parent."

Evelyne (00:46:54):

I know!

Daniella (00:46:56):

And I was just thinking of all these little kids that bring their drawings home from school, you hang up on the refrigerator, right?

Evelyne (00:47:01):

And I'm sitting there as a reader going, "You didn't bring her a mouse? You idiots."

Daniella (00:47:06):

No, that's what I would be thinking too. It's like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't bring a mouse. Oh my god."

Evelyne (00:47:13):

"I didn't bring her a fucking rat. Goddammit!" I would've been so pissed. And of course, they're just acting like they're like, "What? I didn't even bring a rat?" And I'm like, "No, this makes so much sense. Bring her a rat. She's a cat."

Daniella (00:47:23):

But I also really liked Mósí. I thought that she was the perfect embodiment of cat, where it's just like, I just want to see this play out. I just want to see how this goes.

Evelyne (00:47:34):

She was like Coyote if he had a little bit of a soul.

Daniella (00:47:42):

Yeah, I think that's a good encapsulation of it.

Evelyne (00:47:45):

She wasn't evil.

Daniella (00:47:47):

No.

Evelyne (00:47:48):

But she wasn't good, but she was better than Coyote.

Daniella (00:47:52):

Yeah, because she wasn't just trying to sow chaos. She wanted to see a good show.

Evelyne (00:47:56):

Yes. So she was there. She wasn't out just to be like, "Chaos, chaos, chaos." And she wouldn't have just hurt people just to hurt people.

Daniella (00:48:05):

No.

Evelyne (00:48:05):

Right? Because I think Coyote literally would just hurt people sometimes just to hurt people.

Daniella (00:48:10):

It does seem that way. Yeah, okay. But she forces Maggie to agree to a fight. The last fight.

Evelyne (00:48:20):

Yeah. She's like, "This is a big deal. This fire drill is really important. It's a magical object. It's extremely rare. It's a big deal. You have to fight in a big fight."

Daniella (00:48:31):

And the last fight, come to find out, the terms are to the death.

Evelyne (00:48:35):

To the death.

Daniella (00:48:37):

So didn't know that going in. And I think Maggie was a little upset that she didn't know that going in, but she agrees to it because she doesn't know any better.

Evelyne (00:48:44):

And she's also like, "My clan powers. My clan powers! I got speed and I can kill people. Those are my clan powers."

Daniella (00:48:51):

But I'm pretty sure we all knew who she was going to be fighting. So when Neizghání shows up, no one's really that surprised.

Evelyne (00:49:00):

And this is when all of the alarms started going off in my head because not only were they fighting each other, but I started piecing together things in my brain because I started going, "Holy shit. He's fighting the same thing she's fighting. They're on the same fucking side!" And I'm like screaming. I was literally yelling at my book.

Daniella (00:49:25):

At the book, yeah.

Evelyne (00:49:27):

And poor Maggie, my heart was breaking.

Daniella (00:49:31):

I know. I know!

Evelyne (00:49:31):

My heart was breaking for her because all she saw, all she saw was him leaving her. And this was her chance. This was her chance to be proving to him how good she was and how worthy she was. And I was just like, "Oh God. God!"

Daniella (00:49:53):

It was so heartbreaking. I just wanted to hug her.

Evelyne (00:49:55):

I know! And I'm like, "You're human, honey. You're human. You're just a human."

Daniella (00:50:00):

Yeah, and this isn't about you. This is about him being immortal and not caring.

Evelyne (00:50:09):

He's not human!

Daniella (00:50:10):

And that's the thing too is there were a couple of moments where he made comments about her in a possessive way, but not in a loving way. It's like he doesn't see you as a person; he sees you as something he owns. That is not okay.

Evelyne (00:50:27):

And it's not the same thing as a lover either.

Daniella (00:50:30):

Absolutely not.

Evelyne (00:50:31):

And as a grown person with a fully developed rational thinking brain and not a child, I just wanted to grab her and take her away from there.

Daniella (00:50:46):

100%.

Evelyne (00:50:47):

And punch him in the face.

Daniella (00:50:49):

100%. That is exactly what I wanted to do as well. And the fight turns out exactly how we think it's going to.

Evelyne (00:50:56):

Well, yeah. Because he's a fucking immortal and she's a human.

Daniella (00:50:58):

Yep. So he kills her, essentially.

Evelyne (00:51:01):

He tries to rip her heart out after humiliating her.

Daniella (00:51:05):

Humiliating her.

Evelyne (00:51:07):

In front of everybody.

Daniella (00:51:09):

Because he's a dick!

Evelyne (00:51:11):

He's such an asshole.

Daniella (00:51:12):

He's such an asshole.

Evelyne (00:51:14):

He's such an asshole.

Daniella (00:51:15):

Yeah, but who saves her?

Evelyne (00:51:17):

Kai.

Daniella (00:51:18):

Kai.

Evelyne (00:51:19):

Because he's amazing.

Daniella (00:51:20):

Because his clan powers of healing are so beyond what you think they should be-

Evelyne (00:51:27):

They are.

Daniella (00:51:27):

That he is able to bring her back from the brink of death. And they form a plan because Coyote, when he came to visit them, gave her these hoops to use to find this fire drill.

Evelyne (00:51:41):

Because they still think he's the bad guy.

Daniella (00:51:43):

Yep. So they are going to use these hoops according to her dream in this place, the last place that she saw him before he left her, abandoned her, and they're going to trap him because they think that he's the reason these monsters are being created. They think that he is creating the monsters. They think that he's a witch and needs to be stopped.

(00:52:06):

So they go to confront him.

Evelyne (00:52:07):

We're getting close to the last theme that I think this book is about and that's rebirth. This country has been rebirthed. This nation has been rebirthed. It's becoming something new. She is becoming something new. She's becoming a new person in this book.

Daniella (00:52:25):

I agree. She's finding her own self. She's figuring out who she is, which is a part of growing up.

Evelyne (00:52:33):

Yes. It's a coming of age.

Daniella (00:52:35):

Absolutely.

Evelyne (00:52:36):

It's a little later than usual.

Daniella (00:52:38):

It's a little later.

Evelyne (00:52:39):

But that's... Not everybody does it at the same time.

Daniella (00:52:41):

I was going to say, and in her case-

Evelyne (00:52:43):

Trauma does that.

Daniella (00:52:44):

She was with an immortal person for however many years. Yeah, that's going to stunt your growth a little bit. So yeah, so they go to this big showdown and it doesn't go the way that she thinks because someone shows up.

Evelyne (00:53:00):

Fucking Coyote.

Daniella (00:53:03):

And he's just the worst. He's like, "Oh, yeah. By the way"-

Evelyne (00:53:06):

"It was all me!"

Daniella (00:53:09):

"I'm the one that's doing this." And yeah.

Evelyne (00:53:11):

"No, I'm the one who killed your grandmother. I'm the one who's been sending all these monsters. I'm the one who did all of this your entire fucking life."

Daniella (00:53:20):

Yeah. "Aren't you glad that I manifested your clan powers? I did that on purpose, aren't you glad?"

Evelyne (00:53:25):

And he sounds so fucking proud of himself.

Daniella (00:53:27):

Yeah, it's pretty gross.

Evelyne (00:53:29):

Like he's expecting her to bow down to him and say, "Thank you." The fuck?

Daniella (00:53:35):

I will say, I didn't think it was Neizghání that did it.

Evelyne (00:53:39):

No.

Daniella (00:53:40):

But I also did not think it was Coyote.

Evelyne (00:53:43):

I did not either. I was expecting some human witch to be there, and it wasn't.

Daniella (00:53:48):

Same, same.

Evelyne (00:53:48):

It was fucking Coyote.

Daniella (00:53:49):

Yep. So I will say that she got me, but she still makes the choice, to fight Neizghání because he takes care of all the monsters, but he's threatening Kai and she can't have that. She's like, "No. You know what? I have allowed him to become part of my inner circle. I care about him. I'm going to protect him. I need to deal with my trauma with you, and I can't do that right now." So what does she do?

Evelyne (00:54:17):

She fucking sacrifices everything. Everything!

Daniella (00:54:24):

She basically puts him to sleep.

Evelyne (00:54:28):

But not only that, no, this is the part where I... Oh my God. Okay. So she takes these hoops and she basically does, she just puts him to sleep, and they do these hoops, but at the same time, she loses everybody because everybody thinks-

Daniella (00:54:46):

That she's killed Kai.

Evelyne (00:54:47):

That she has killed Kai.

Daniella (00:54:50):

And what is she trusting? She's trusting that his clan powers will save him. She shoots him, but she very carefully does not shoot him in the head. She shoots him in the torso because she's like, "You know what? I've seen you heal from worse. You told me about a time that you healed from worse."

Evelyne (00:55:06):

And she looks him in the eye-

Daniella (00:55:08):

In the eyes, yeah.

Evelyne (00:55:09):

And they communicate. And he's like, "I am on board with this plan."

Daniella (00:55:15):

Yeah. Oh, yeah. He gives us consent.

Evelyne (00:55:17):

Yes. There is consent happening. So she is like, "Okay, we are both on board with this plan. I am doing this with you together." So she has okay. And at this is point, I'm going, "Holy shit! She's trusting somebody. Holy fucking shit! She's trusting somebody."

Daniella (00:55:38):

Yeah. It was a huge personal moment for her.

Evelyne (00:55:41):

She is not working alone. She is working with a partner.

Daniella (00:55:45):

She has a partner! Yeah. Goosebumps. Goosebumps, yeah.

Evelyne (00:55:50):

I know! She's working with a partner and she does this. She does this and then everybody shuns her.

Daniella (00:55:57):

But she knew it was going to happen, and she chose it.

Evelyne (00:55:59):

She did.

Daniella (00:55:59):

This was the difference between how she was living before and how she goes forward because she knows... She doesn't know, but she believes that Kai is going to recover and come find her. So she's thinking, "It's okay. I can deal with these people being afraid of me. I can deal with these people judging me because I know that it's going to work out in the end," whereas before, people were afraid of her and it wasn't her choice.

Evelyne (00:56:25):

Yes. So Neizghání is sleeping. He's down. Kai is down for the count. Everybody has basically said, "You are awful. What the fuck did you just do?" And they leave her and she goes, so the story ends where it began: at her trailer. Except-

Daniella (00:56:43):

Who's there waiting for her?

Evelyne (00:56:44):

I know!

Daniella (00:56:44):

It's Tah.

Evelyne (00:56:44):

It's Tah!

Daniella (00:56:44):

I was so happy.

Evelyne (00:56:52):

Tah is there.

Daniella (00:56:53):

I was so happy.

Evelyne (00:56:54):

At her trailer.

Daniella (00:56:55):

And the only thing he says to her is, "Let's wait for him together."

Evelyne (00:57:00):

They're waiting together.

Daniella (00:57:01):

And it just made me so happy. I was like, "Oh my God. She has a family again."

Evelyne (00:57:07):

She has a family.

Daniella (00:57:09):

It could not have ended in a better way for me.

Evelyne (00:57:11):

I know.

Daniella (00:57:11):

It really could not.

Evelyne (00:57:12):

It could not have. Seriously. It really couldn't have.

Daniella (00:57:16):

I was devastated when I thought Tah had died, and I did think that for a lot of the book, even though we hadn't seen the body. I really thought, "Wow. I can't believe they killed him," because he was my favorite. Right?

Evelyne (00:57:31):

I know! I know! But he was there.

Daniella (00:57:31):

Yeah. So I was really glad to find that Tah was alive.

Evelyne (00:57:34):

And he believed in her and he never doubted her.

Daniella (00:57:38):

Never.

Evelyne (00:57:38):

And he was just like, "Okay, we'll wait for him. He's coming back."

Daniella (00:57:43):

Love that. I love that so much.

Evelyne (00:57:44):

He said, "Okay."

Daniella (00:57:47):

Yeah, I did enjoy this book quite a lot. I read it really quickly. This was one of the ones where I was like, "Nope, I just want to keep going. I don't want to put it down. I just want to keep going because I need to find out what happens." And part of it was not being used to this world and this culture and these themes. I mean, the themes are similar, but having it in this world with this culture, I had no idea what was going on. And I loved that. It was so great. It was a breath of fresh air.

Evelyne (00:58:17):

Absolutely. Because Coyote was fucking out of left field. Not knowing that, I mean, that was amazing. That was amazing. The red herrings, didn't know. Complete surprise. Love that. There are reasons why I gave this five out of five, and I gave it five out of five because as a person who has survived emotional abuse and has lived through trauma and its recovery, I appreciated her journey.

Daniella (00:58:48):

Oh, yeah. Oh, I resonated so hard with her.

Evelyne (00:58:51):

And I was just like, "Holy shit. This is how it is. This is how you see things," because it clouds everything.

Daniella (00:59:00):

You can't trust anyone, including your own self. You cannot trust the decisions you make.

Evelyne (00:59:05):

No!

Daniella (00:59:06):

You can't trust anybody else.

Evelyne (00:59:08):

No!

Daniella (00:59:08):

You feel so isolated and so alone and you don't know what's going on. You don't feel comfortable in your own body. There are so many things going on that make you question everything.

Evelyne (00:59:19):

Everything.

Daniella (00:59:21):

Every decision, no matter how small.

Evelyne (00:59:23):

And it doesn't matter gender, it doesn't matter family, it doesn't matter anything.

Daniella (00:59:27):

No, it really doesn't.

Evelyne (00:59:28):

And so watching her grow from this woman who couldn't come out of her trailer with her dogs, to a person who had a partner and a family at the end of this book was amazing.

Daniella (00:59:46):

Absolutely. Absolutely agree. And I loved it too because there isn't even any... There's no spice in this book. There's no sex.

Evelyne (00:59:54):

No, there's not.

Daniella (00:59:54):

But I don't need it because so much of it was about her healing.

Evelyne (00:59:58):

It absolutely was.

Daniella (00:59:59):

And that's okay.

Evelyne (01:00:01):

And my toxic trait as a reader, when I give something a five-star rating, I go back and I look at the one-star ratings, and then I get really mad, and then I yell at them, and then I make fun of them. That's like my toxic trait. It just really is.

(01:00:15):

And a lot of them were they really hated Maggie, and they just couldn't identify with her. And I think, I don't know, I can't talk to other people's experiences. I can't because I'm not them.

Daniella (01:00:27):

Yeah, you don't know.

Evelyne (01:00:30):

I can't talk about them. As me, I identified with her probably a little too much.

Daniella (01:00:38):

Yeah, I agree. I definitely did as well.

(01:00:45):

Yeah. And it did take me a while to get there because she was so closed off and I think that I've gotten to a point where I'm not as closed off, but if I had read this 10 years ago, I'm pretty sure I would've been like, "Oh my God, she's me." And I actually think it might have helped me a little bit seeing like, okay, she got past this, so maybe I can as well. There are good people out there. There are people that I can rely on. But I did identify with her probably more than I should have.

Evelyne (01:01:14):

Absolutely. For real.

Daniella (01:01:17):

Because of the trauma, because of the response to it. It's like, "You know what? I can't rely on anybody else. I'm going to rely on myself."

Evelyne (01:01:23):

This book was entirely about her character arc. It just was.

Daniella (01:01:28):

And I appreciate that so much. I mean, I did read some of the one-star reviews and they were talking about, "Oh, there's no plot here." And I was like, "What are you talking about? How can you say that?" So much of this was about her being alone and accepting the fact that she didn't want to be alone.

Evelyne (01:01:44):

It's like watching... See, I get bored watching action movies where it's just action.

Daniella (01:01:49):

Agreed.

Evelyne (01:01:49):

It doesn't need to be all nonstop action. Sometimes it's about the character development.

Daniella (01:01:53):

Yeah. I would argue most of the time it is, even in the action sequences, you need some of the character stuff to keep you interested.

Evelyne (01:02:01):

Absolutely.

Daniella (01:02:02):

I wish Hollywood would remember that sometimes.

Evelyne (01:02:05):

For real.

Daniella (01:02:06):

Yeah.

Evelyne (01:02:08):

But I mean, that was a real big reason why this was a five-star rating for me.

Daniella (01:02:11):

That's fair. That's fair. I mean, I would probably give it four and a half. I have to go back and look at all my five-stars and see what I've given five stars to because now I'm curious. I feel like maybe I'm not being fair because I did enjoy this book quite a lot because it was so different from anything that I had read before.

Evelyne (01:02:35):

Well, she won the Locus Award for this book for Best First Novel.

Daniella (01:02:40):

I think she won a Nebula Award as well, didn't she?

Evelyne (01:02:42):

She was nominated-

(01:02:45):

For the Hugo, the World Fantasy, and the Locus for Best Novel for this book.

Daniella (01:02:51):

That's awesome.

Evelyne (01:02:52):

This book was fabulous.

Daniella (01:02:53):

It was really good. I hope everybody gives it a chance. It really was. It really was good.

Evelyne (01:02:58):

Read outside white male writers, dudes. Come on. They are so good.

Daniella (01:03:05):

There are so many other options out there, and there's no reason that we need to circulate around all these overpowered white farm boys.

(01:03:18):

So yeah, I think that sums it up for this one.

Evelyne (01:03:22):

I think so.

Daniella (01:03:22):

Next time, we'll be talking about War of Two Queens by Jennifer Armentrout. I'm working my way through the series now.

Evelyne (01:03:30):

I made her read all of them.

Daniella (01:03:34):

I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about that one. It's going to be good.

Evelyne (01:03:37):

Yay!

Daniella (01:03:39):

Yay. And I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne (01:03:42):

And I'm Evelyne Crow.

Daniella (01:03:44):

And this has been Intoxicated Literature.

Evelyne (01:03:46):

Thank you very much.

Announcer (01:03:47):

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well, friends.