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Intoxicated Literature Podcast
A podcast with books, alcohol, and lots of laughter. Daniella and Evelyne are sisters who have always shared book recommendations with each other. Join us while we drink and discuss books in the paranormal romance, urban fantasy, and epic fantasy genres!
Intoxicated Literature Podcast
Kushiel's Dart
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Evelyne and Daniella move from discussing world building, the virtues of sending a courtesan as a diplomat, to how the villain is the BEST VILLAIN ever. There is also some good natured arguing and really bad French. Just so bad.
Speaker 3:
This is Intoxicated Literature.
Daniella Drake:
Welcome to Intoxicated Literature. I am Daniella Drake.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I'm Evelyne Crowe.
Daniella Drake:
And we have been pre-gaming for about two hours.
Evelyne Crowe:
So we're exceptionally intoxicated literature tonight.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, it should be very interesting. But I'm excited because tonight we are talking about Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey.Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
Which is one of my favorite books.
Evelyne Crowe:
I think this is in one of my top fives easily.
Daniella Drake:
I agree. Yep. The first three in this series, I've read all of them, but the first three I reread at least once a year.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh, a hundred, yes. So I have one tattoo on my body and it's from this book.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
So the top five easily.
Daniella Drake:
I think it's hilarious that you went for Phedre's tattoo because I really like Alcuin's tattoo.
Evelyne Crowe:
That makes sense to me in so many ways.
Daniella Drake:
Okay, we'll talk about it later. Before we really dive into it, spoilers, we will talk about the entire book. So if you have not read it, please push pause, read the book and come back to us with a drink in hand.
Evelyne Crowe:
And over 18. We'll be talking about over 18 content. If you are not over 18, go away.
Daniella Drake:
Also, we swear a lot.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. If that offends, you should not be listening to this podcast. So Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey was written 20 years ago.
Daniella Drake:
Oh gosh
.Evelyne Crowe:
It's one of the formative fantasy books that I read. And it is a epic fantasy. This is not a fantasy that you read and you think spicy books because it's not. This is an-
Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
... epic fantasy.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's an epic fantasy that has spicy elements in it because Jacqueline Carey included a protagonist who is cursed by the gods to feel pleasure in pain.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
That is her deal.
Daniella Drake:
Blessed or cursed. I think she thinks it's a curse most of the time.
Evelyne Crowe:
Most of the time. I would say so. But, it depends-Daniella Drake:
But yes.Evelyne Crowe:
It depends on the situation.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. So there are a lot of themes of BDSM, but the healthy kind.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes, there is a safe word. It is done healthily.
Daniella Drake:
Consent is always 100% important.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely.
Daniella Drake:
Everybody is on board, always. There is always communication. The overarching theme of this entire book, and they say it over and over again in this culture is, love as thou wilt.
Evelyne Crowe:
Love as thou wilt.
Daniella Drake:
I want to get tattooed right on my collarbone.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes, I want it everywhere in my body.
Daniella Drake:
Everywhere on my body. There are so many quotes in this book that I want tattooed somewhere on my body because it doesn't matter who you love, it's acceptable and it is encouraged.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. So it is so important to the culture. And there are times where the protagonist is a slave.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. A literal slave.
Evelyne Crowe:
Her nature as she is cursed by a god is to feel pleasure in pain. So she is a slave and she is forced to be a bed slave to a person. And as such, she is feeling pleasure in the shame and this humiliation and all of this. And she is not enjoying it.Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
But she is feeling pleasure and she hates it. She hates every moment of it. She does not enjoy it.
Daniella Drake:
It makes her hate herself a little bit because she can't not feel it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
She literally doesn't have a choice. Her culture very much does not approve of any relationship that is not consensual.
Evelyne Crowe:
No, I will say, it does happen because humans are humans.
Daniella Drake:
So this world, this book is set in a kind of alternate history where it's-
Evelyne Crowe:
It's France.
Daniella Drake:
... France.
Evelyne Crowe:
Terre d'Ange. The land of the angels.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, Terre d'Ange. So there will be a lot of weird French accents.
Evelyne Crowe:
We both have a history of French. We're exceptionally drunk and I can't guarantee that it's going to be good French.
Daniella Drake:
No, we do speak some French. So-
Evelyne Crowe:
I'm so sorry.
Daniella Drake:
... I apologize to any French or French-speaking listeners. We're doing our best. But it is really interesting, this alternate history of Europe in general really, it encompasses a huge swath of Europe, but it's set in Terre d'Ange, where it's this kind of idea of this being that came from Mother Earth and the blood of Jesus.
Evelyne Crowe:
And the tears of Mary Magdalene.
Daniella Drake:
Which I love. I love that She was like an active participant.
Evelyne Crowe:
When he died, she cried and her tears mixed with his blood and the earth and thus sprang forth blessed Elua.
Daniella Drake:
That's correct.
Evelyne Crowe:
She was necessary. So Elua then traversed the world trying to find a place to live.
Daniella Drake:
Because he doesn't fit anywhere. He doesn't fit in the heavens, he doesn't fit on earth. He just is kind of there.
Evelyne Crowe:
And several angels went, well, he's important. He loves and he cherish.
Daniella Drake:
Chose to join him.
Evelyne Crowe:
And they fell.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And so there were several of them. And if you read the book, you will learn all about them.
Daniella Drake:
I feel like there were eight or nine.
Evelyne Crowe:
There's a bunch of them there. The important ones are Naamah, who is the one who-
Daniella Drake:
She lay with strangers in order to procure food or lodging to make sure that everybody survived.
Evelyne Crowe:
So in this culture, sex work is holy.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Which is one of my favorite things, honestly.
Evelyne Crowe:
I love it. I love it so much. So there's a Elua and there's Naamah and there's Cassiel. Now Cassiel is the antithesis of Naamah.
Daniella Drake:
He's the one that stuck most closely to the one god's teachings. So he's the one that still adheres to the celibacy and that kind of aspect.
velyne Crowe:
So says the brotherhood.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
We don't know for sure. But the Cassiel brotherhood is a brotherhood of men. There are no women, who swear to celibacy and they're used as bodyguards and they're very severe and very like, whoa. I will-
Daniella Drake:
They're monks.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, they're monks.
Daniella Drake:
They're monks. But they are trained. They're priests, but they are trained in weapons from a very early age and they usually serve as bodyguards for the king.
Evelyne Crowe:
And they are the opposite of Naamah. So where the children who go into Naamah service, and again, it's grooming on both ends.
Daniella Drake:
For both.
Evelyne Crowe:
They start at age 10, 10 for both. And again, they're not starting sex work or Cassiel necessarily at age 10.
Daniella Drake:
But that's where they start to learn about it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. They start to discuss it, they start to learn about it, all of that stuff.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
No one is doing sex work at age 10.
Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
But they start to learn about it. And in Cassiel's case, they might start learning forms or whatever.
Daniella Drake:
I kind of want to learn because it sounds really cool.
Evelyne Crowe:
It does sound really cool. They use daggers.
Daniella Drake:
Their usual fighting style is two daggers, and then they have these vambraces on their wrists for defense. And I'm like, I could learn that. That sounds awesome.
Evelyne Crowe:
And the only time I draw their swords is to kill.
Daniella Drake:
So mostly it's just daggers all the time. So most of the forms they learn are for the daggers.
Evelyne Crowe:
Their whole purpose is to protect.
Daniella Drake:
And that is it.
Evelyne Crowe:
That is it.
Daniella Drake:
That is it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Now that being said, it is a very human thing, the brotherhood. We don't know for sure what Cassiel, because Cassiel was an angel. We don't know what his purpose was serving Elua. We don't know what he did here on earth with Elua. We assume that he stayed celibate. That he protected Elua and then he stayed true to the one true god-
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Teachings, whatever
Evelyne Crowe:
, the whole thing.
All right, so then we have Phedre. Phedre is marked by Kushiel. Kushiel is one of the other angels. Kushiel is for punishment.
Daniella Drake:
He was god's punisher of people who needed punishing, but he loved the people that he punished.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes, he did it out of love and caring.
Daniella Drake:
Yes
.Evelyne Crowe:
It wasn't out of malice.
Daniella Drake:
And it's important to distinguish between Phedre who is marked by Kushiel's Dart, which is like a dot in her eye, it looks like a blood spot.
Evelyne Crowe:
And it's important to notice that her eyes are brown, like a deep brown. So a dot of red in her eye is very noticeable.
Daniella Drake:
Stands out. Yes, absolutely. And so she is marked as anguissette, someone who receives pleasure from pain. And there are also the scions from Kushiel, his line, his direct descendants who-
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh yeah, these angels came down from heaven and then they proceeded to have tons of children.
Daniella Drake:
They got busy with everyone-
Evelyne Crowe:
Except for Cassiel. Cassiel had no children. There's no direct line from Cassiel.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Which is how you kind of think that he's celibate because there's no one.
Evelyne Crowe:
Maybe he had sex with the Elua. You don't know.
Daniella Drake:
You don't know. You don't know. But this is important to distinguish. Yes. Because the angels, and this is part of their culture, and they do tend to be a little bit ethnocentric.
Evelyne Crowe:
They do.
Daniella Drake:
Because they're like, well, we're bred from angels, so we're so beautiful and we're so smart and we're so good.
Evelyne Crowe:
We're graceful. We're smarter. We're better.
Daniella Drake:
How could you possibly compete with a race of people who came from angels?
Evelyne Crowe:
It's a little much-
Daniella Drake:
So it's a problem.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's a little much.
Daniella Drake:
It's a problem.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's a little much. Especially when they go into other countries and they're like, well, they're so graceless, and they don't have it. Their language is a little clunky.
Daniella Drake:
And their looks are so rough and unfinished and you're just like-
Evelyne Crowe:
That's a problem for me.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And it's all told from Phedre's perspective.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah. Because she's a native Terre d'Ange and you're just like-
Daniella Drake:
And she's been indoctrinated since she was a child. So of course she thinks all of these things.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely.
Daniella Drake:
But Kushiel has scions, his direct descendants who are punishers in a sense. They get pleasure from pain, but they get pleasure from inflicting pain.Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
So there is this kind of duality in this, and this is part of the plot. This is an important part of the plot because he's like, "One of my scions kind of is out a control, and I need someone to maybe rein her in a little bit. So now you're here Phedre."
Evelyne Crowe:
Phedre is, I want to say pan almost. I think she would be sexually attracted to almost anyone.
Daniella Drake:
I think that is fair. She is definitely attracted to anyone of any shape, any kind anywhere.
Evelyne Crowe:
I would say pan. If there were a term for that in 2000, whenever when this was written, it would've been pan.
Daniella Drake:
That's what it would've been. I agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
In this case, I would say bi because when it was written, there wasn't a term for that. Melisande is fucking beautiful.
Daniella Drake:
She is stunning.
Evelyne Crowe:
Imagine a beautiful woman. And I'm not saying that pale skin is the epitome of beautiful. No.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely not.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
It's unfortunate. But in this book there is-
Evelyne Crowe:
There are a lot of white people.
Daniella Drake:
A lot of white.
Evelyne Crowe:
But she has pale skin, but she has black hair and sapphire blue eyes-
Daniella Drake:
Really super dark, midnight hair.
Evelyne Crowe:
But it's her presence that is the most important part of this.
Daniella Drake:
She is so intelligent and so funny and just overall this amazing package.
Evelyne Crowe:
It is her presence and her intelligence that makes her dangerous.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. And everyone reacts to it. Everyone notices it. Everyone acknowledges it. And Phedre, the first time she sees her even is like, who the fuck is this lady? Because hot damn. And that was when Melisande was 22 or something. She was so young. And Phedre was what, 17 or so ridiculously young. But immediately Phedre is like, this woman is-
velyne Crowe:
Every time Phedre-
Daniella Drake:
... amazing.
Evelyne Crowe:
... saw Melisande, almost every time she just, her brain shut off. And she just became, I don't know how many of you who are listening are actual submissives, but she just went into immediate subspace, it was like immediately just her brain shut off. She went into immediate subspace and was like, this is my dominant and she is in control of me and I cannot function until she-
Daniella Drake:
And you have to remember, Melisande is a direct descendant of Kushiel. So this is two opposing forces essentially meeting. And poor Phedre is like, I can't stand up to this. I don't know. I just want to say yes and submit.
Evelyne Crowe:
She was completely at a loss here. She had almost no defenses against Melisande.
Daniella Drake:
And honestly, I fucking get it. I get it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Beautiful and powerful
Daniella Drake:
Melisande is like the best villain I think I have read-
Evelyne Crowe:
She's so smart.
Daniella Drake:
... ever.
She is so smart. And she does have this weird way of making you go, no, I really just want to make you happy. I just want you to be happy.
Evelyne Crowe:
I would bow to her, 100%. I would kneel before, and say, "I'll do anything you want."
Daniella Drake:
Right? Listen, I'm not even bi, but I don't know.
Evelyne Crowe:
I don't even know if I'm bi, but I'll do whatever you want.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. Exactly. I'm like, I'm willing to try for you. I don't know. She is just so complex and so interesting and so smart and beautiful and all of these things in one package.
Evelyne Crowe:
The thing is, Melisande is, everyone is playing checkers and she's playing chess.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. She's playing 4D chess.
Evelyne Crowe:
[inaudible 00:15:37] think she's playing Star Trek chess.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. She's above and beyond what everyone else is doing.
Evelyne Crowe:
She's got all the levels of Star Trek chess and she's like up here and everyone else is on level one and she's already on level four and she's at checkmate. And everyone is like, wait-
Daniella Drake:
Yes, she's 17 steps ahead.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely smart.
Daniella Drake:
Always.
Evelyne Crowe:
So smart.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely.
Daniella Drake:
And she's a political creature.
Evelyne Crowe:
So if Game of Thrones had been written before this, she would've been playing the Game of Thrones.
Daniella Drake:
100%. And she would have won. She's like Cersei, if Cersei could get past her own-
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniella Drake:
... weird hangups.
Evelyne Crowe:
Cersei. She was Cersei if she had a soul. Because Melisande-
Daniella Drake:
Yes, agreed.
Evelyne Crowe:
... was not pure evil.
Daniella Drake:
No. This is the thing about Melisande, and this is why I think she's the best villain is because I'm not going to say she's not a sociopath. She chooses to protect, well, Phedre and Joscelin, when she sends them into slavery because she's afraid of the god's wrath. It's not that she is afraid to kill them. If it was expedient to her, she would've done it. Which is why I think she walks the line-
Evelyne Crowe:
She does.
Daniella Drake:
.. of being a sociopath, because she's seeing people as players on a chessboard more than just people. I do think that she does have some kind of feelings for Phedre. I do think outside of her being chosen by-
Evelyne Crowe:
I think she would be sad if Phedre died.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. I think it would affect her, which is why I don't think she's a full sociopath, but she has so many markings that I'm just like, you're so intellectual that you're almost beyond what a normal person is. And that's kind of what a sociopath is. But for her, it's more about, I think she does love Phedre in her way, but she chooses to save her not because she loves her, but because she's afraid-
Evelyne Crowe:
Because Phedre is actually god marked.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. She has been chosen by Kushiel because to do his work in a way that Melisande has not as his scion.
Evelyne Crowe:
That being said, she sends Phedre and Joscelin-
Daniella Drake:
Oh, she expects them to die.
Evelyne Crowe:
Melisande, she does not expect them to live. She sends them into Germany or whatever with the expectation that they will not survive.
Daniella Drake:
She fully expects them to die.
Evelyne Crowe:
She's like, "They will go into Germany and be so shocked by the living conditions, they are pampered. They have never lived in slavery. They have no idea what's going to happen in this arena that they will just give up and die." She totally underestimates the strength of will that both Phedre and Joscelin have.
Daniella Drake:
Have.
Evelyne Crowe:
Not only that-
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
... she underestimates the connection that Phedre and Joscelin both make with each other.
Daniella Drake:
I mean, when you're exiled and the only other person who understands your culture, your history, your backstory, whatever, is with you, of course you're going to bond with them.
Evelyne Crowe:
So here's the thing. Cassiel and Naamah are anathema to each other. They do not go together. We have-
Daniella Drake:
My favorite part is when Joscelin first joins the household and he is just like, "Excuse me, what the fuck am I doing here?" And she doesn't like him either. She's like, "This is a dried up stick of a Cassiel servant. Like, what the fuck."
Evelyne Crowe:
60-year-old Cassiline brother who is just boring as fuck. And then she looks over and there is a handsome 20-year-old Cassiline brother, he is handsome you all.
Daniella Drake:
So handsome.
Evelyne Crowe:
[inaudible 00:19:47] good-looking and young.
Daniella Drake:
The cheekbones alone.
Evelyne Crowe:
Good-looking. And he sees her as frivolous and just luxuriating and this, she's just going along and sleeping with everybody and doing whatever the fuck she wants. He literally does not see her. He doesn't understand what her household is for. Now-
Daniella Drake:
And that's part of what his upbringing was.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. Because again, Cassiel's, the whole Cassiel Brotherhood teaches, that that's what Naamah's service is for.
Daniella Drake:
That they're all misguided.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes, they're the misguided. But Delaunay, who is the person who bought Phedre's mark from the Night Court. Now the Night Court is problematic.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. It is.
Evelyne Crowe:
So the Night Court is a collection of houses that caters to people, a collection of houses, of sex workers.
Daniella Drake:
Different tastes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Different tastes of every kind that you can imagine.
Daniella Drake:
So there's one house that's like if you're feeling tortured, you would go there for healing. Or if you just need a laugh, you would go there. If you're looking for perfection, there are all these just super specific-
Evelyne Crowe:
Usually catering to people who have lots of wealth who can pay for it.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Honestly, I find the idea of the Night Court intriguing until you remember the fact that they buy children.
Evelyne Crowe:
They buy children, they purchase-
Daniella Drake:
And start training them-
Evelyne Crowe:
... children.
Daniella Drake:
... when they're 10 years old.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
I have a problem with that.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. The whole idea of the Night Court is extremely problematic.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's trafficking. It's human trafficking.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.Evelyne Crowe:
And they, even though they are human trafficking, find that they feel themselves above what they consider. Again, this is not a personal opinion, what they consider common sex workers.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And again, Naamah is a goddess who lay with people to feed Elua.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
This is supposed to be a common, we're all together in this. This is for us. This is our religion.Daniella Drake:
Yes.Evelyne Crowe:
But we are above this. We are special.
Daniella Drake:
There is a weird hierarchical idea that because we chose it or because there is a moment where Phedre has to go to the temple and pledge herself to Naamah.
Evelyne Crowe:
There is a consent factor, but-
Daniella Drake:
There is, but it's weird to me that, and I won't say that Phedre thinks this because she doesn't, and it's very clear in the second book especially that she is not-
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay. But I will make the distinction between Alcuin and Phedre.
Daniella Drake:
Okay.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because he also pledges.
Daniella Drake:
He does. Which he shouldn't have.
Evelyne Crowe:
He shouldn't have.
Daniella Drake:
But that's his choice.
Evelyne Crowe:
It is his-
Daniella Drake:
That is also a consent issue because he did choose it.
Evelyne Crowe:
But not because he necessarily wanted to.
Daniella Drake:
No, absolutely not. And this is a Delaunay problem more than an Naamah problem.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. And Delaunay also is like, "Okay, you should have come to me."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And Phedre is also like, "You don't want this. What are you doing?"
Evelyne Crowe:
But this is an overarching issue.
Daniella Drake:
Agreed.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because here's the thing. They purchased children because Delaunay and bought both of their marks. He bought both of their marks. And the mark is a tattoo that they imprint on their backs. And when it is complete, you have completed your mark, you have completed your servitude.
Daniella Drake:
They're basically indentured servants. And when the mark is complete, your servitude is done. And you're now free to do whatever you want.
Evelyne Crowe:
You can choose what you want to do in your life.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Alcuin's like, I don't really want to do this, but I will do this because you want me to do this.
Daniella Drake:
Because I love you.
Evelyne Crowe:
And that is not okay.
Daniella Drake:
No. And even Phedre's like, this is not the way this is supposed to work. This is not how it's supposed to be. You're supposed to go into this because you want to, again, consent.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. Consent.
Daniella Drake:
You don't want to do this. And I'm not okay with it. But he does it and she doesn't say anything because he begs her to keep it quiet because he loves Delaunay.
Evelyne Crowe:
And so you have this mentor mentee, whole problematic thing.
Daniella Drake:
Oh, the whole thing where they're competing with each other because both of them want to have a piece of this hot mentor they've got. And I'm just like, you guys.
Evelyne Crowe:
You are teenagers.
Daniella Drake:
All you all need to calm the fuck down.
Evelyne Crowe:
Jesus Christ.
Daniella Drake:
I know.
Evelyne Crowe:
You're horny and you need to stop.
Daniella Drake:
I mean, to be fair, Phedre's got the added thing of having Kushiel's Dart, just like constantly pricking her.
Evelyne Crowe:
Can you imagine being a teenager and horny as fuck and then having Kushiel's Dart on top of it.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. It's just awful. And she's learning in a classroom by reading books about sex. And she's just like, "This is not doing it for me guys. This is not okay."
Evelyne Crowe:
And [inaudible 00:25:40] is like, "No, you can't have anything yet. Sorry."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
And you consent to 16-
Daniella Drake:
You are 13.
Evelyne Crowe:
Sorry.
Daniella Drake:
You are 13 years old. You need to calm the fuck down.
Evelyne Crowe:
She says, "I'm 13. I'm old enough." She's like, "No, you're not."
Daniella Drake:
No, you're not.
Evelyne Crowe:
"Sorry."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
But at the same time, you have the idea of indenture servitude.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And even if he had been in one of the Night Court's houses-
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
The idea that you were grooming a child-
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. It's problematic.
Evelyne Crowe:
... to have sex at 16.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.Evelyne Crowe:
It's gross.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. It's a little gross. And it's weird because you're reading it and you're just kind of going with it. Because again, it's from Phedre's point of view.
Evelyne Crowe:
It is. And she's totally okay with it. She's on board.
Daniella Drake:
She's fully indoctrinated. She does not see a problem with this. She's like, "God, I'm only 10. Why can't I speed up time?"
Evelyne Crowe:
She is so fucking ready to have sex by the time she was 16, you would've been like, "I'm ready for this too. What's the fucking hold up?"
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
I swear to God.
Daniella Drake:
But it is, as a reader, you're kind of going, I don't know that.
Evelyne Crowe:
So that aspect, as much as they espouse, this is a perfect culture. It's not.
Daniella Drake:
It's definitely not. Absolutely not.
Evelyne Crowe:
And there's definitely a hierarchy. And there's definitely, the sex workers on the street do not have the same, I don't know-
Daniella Drake:
Protections.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. And there are even those who buy marks from the night houses who treat those marks as shit. They are completely shitty to those. And they're awful to them.
I would say even numbers of men and women.
Evelyne Crowe:
And the people who buy those marks are not, they're not regulated as well as they could have been.
Daniella Drake:
No. There are contracts-
Evelyne Crowe:
And unions, I would say-
Daniella Drake:
And unions, I would say. And there are fines that you have to pay. But you think about Phedre's costumer-
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
Who had a contract with someone who disfigured her.
Evelyne Crowe:
Disfigured her, so she could not make money to [inaudible 00:28:08]-
Daniella Drake:
And now she can only make money. And she is a genius when it comes to costumes and wardrobes and whatever. But literally, she's disfigured so much that her house is like, "We can't send you out on any more assignations, you're damaged." And it's really problematic. I mean, are, and this is within the society that is supposed to value consent and value these people specifically because they have pledged themselves to Naamah. And there are supposed to be protections. And yet-
Evelyne Crowe:
That's the thing is that every house in this Night Court is like, one of them, the [inaudible 00:28:49] house is like, you have to be perfection. So what happens if you're not perfect? What happens if you all of a sudden develop imper imperfection as, which happened with Phedre. She had a dot of red, one dot of red in her eye, and she was not perfect. So what happens if you fall and a bone doesn't heal right and you have a limp, or you have-
Daniella Drake:
They sell you.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's so wrong.
Daniella Drake:
It is really wrong.
Evelyne Crowe:
So it's not perfect. And I just want to make sure people who read this going in-
Daniella Drake:
Yes
Evelyne Crowe:
... know-
Daniella Drake:
Understand.
Evelyne Crowe:
So we understand it is not perfect.
Daniella Drake:
You have to understand, we were 20 when we first read this book.
Evelyne Crowe:
And at the time-
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
There were-
Daniella Drake:
It was very different.
Evelyne Crowe:
... so few books that were at all open-minded about sex-
Daniella Drake:
Interesting or open-minded. Yes, absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
... or homosexuality of any kind.
Daniella Drake:
I mean, listen, this was the first time that I read anything that was even remotely positive about BDSM. And that's not really my thing. That's not like my, whatever, that's not my kink. I don't know. But it wasn't something that I sought out. And then I read this book and I was like, "Oh, so this is the thing that could be acceptable. This is the thing that people do." It really just kind of gave me permission.
So yes, there are definitely problems, but overarching the story, the world building is so good. The world building is so rich and so good. And it is a little bit slow in the beginning, just like any epic fantasy, because you have to figure out all these names, all the names of the freaking angels. You're just like, who the fuck is this? And so it takes a while to get into it. And plus you're following Phedre who is a child. So you're watching her grow up and it's like, oh my God. And it takes the first decade of her life before she really starts to live, before she goes to live with Delaunay, before she really starts to be a person-
Evelyne Crowe:
I would say-
Daniella Drake:
So it takes the first third of the book to really get going. And then shit hits the fan-
Evelyne Crowe:
Delaunay buys her mark from the house in the Night Court. She could have just grown up to just be a sex worker. And she could have just lived her life in comfort earning her mark steadily and just have been essentially just a sex worker. She just could have just nine to five it.
Daniella Drake:
And she would've been content, I would say.
Evelyne Crowe:
She would have. She would've gone to the, what was the Night Court equivalent of?
Daniella Drake:
Oh, it was Valerian House.
Evelyne Crowe:
Valerian House.
Daniella Drake:
Mandrake House was the one that was like the people doing-
Evelyne Crowe:
Mandrake House was dominance.
Daniella Drake:
Yes
.Evelyne Crowe:
Valerian House was submissive.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
She would've gone to Valerian house and probably been pretty happy.
Daniella Drake:
She would've made bank.
Evelyne Crowe:
She would have absolutely made bank. So she would've been okay. But Delaunay, he's essentially a spy. So he taught his little courtesans how to spy.
Daniella Drake:
Which is not what Naamah servants are supposed to do.
Evelyne Crowe:
No.
Daniella Drake:
It's kind of, yeah. So it's odd for this culture, but still nobles weren't surprised by it.
Evelyne Crowe:
No.
Daniella Drake:
Because again, politics.
Evelyne Crowe:
Game of Thrones kind of shit.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. Exactly. So he's teaching Phedre and Alcuin how to read people, how to pick up on things, how to eavesdrop. All of these little tricks.
Evelyne Crowe:
Phedre knew languages that no one else knew. She knew how to listen and count how many people were around her. She had observational skills that no one else knew. She knew how to juggle, she knew things that people were like, wait, how did you do that?
Daniella Drake:
But she also inherently, because of her nature, this is actually something I wanted to talk about, because I think it's fascinating because of her nature as an anguissette, part of the quote unquote "fun" is the defiance and how far you can push someone.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. The bratting.
Daniella Drake:
The bratting. Yes. Absolutely. And she uses that to her advantage when it comes to getting information from people. So the first time that she really gets a good piece of information, she doesn't think that her patron is going to do something really kind of horrible. She's like, "Oh, he's not going to do that."
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh no. He has a hot poker.
Daniella Drake:
A brand, essentially.
Evelyne Crowe:
A hot poker. And she said, "No, he's not going to put that on me."
Daniella Drake:
And he does.
Evelyne Crowe:
And then he does. And so guilt-ridden about it. He says something that he's not supposed to say.
Daniella Drake:
And she hears it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because she is who she is. If she had been anybody else, she would've been unconscious.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
But because she is who she is, she heard every word.
Daniella Drake:
And she uses that with everybody that she's trying to get information from. She's like, "I know when to push. I know when to not." She uses this kind of aspect of herself to know when it's appropriate to do these things. And she does it very well.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely.
Daniella Drake:
She always knows.
Evelyne Crowe:
And when Joscelin comes into the picture-
Daniella Drake:
I mean, part of being an anguissette is also finding joy in pain. So there are times where Phedre subconsciously, I don't think she does it on purpose, but subconsciously pokes at him or needles him in a way that pushes him away, and then she feels pain and gets pleasure from him.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh, yes. Because pain is not just physical.
Daniella Drake:
It is such a huge part of her character. And it does come through sometimes in this book, even with, let's talk about Delaunay and Alcuin's relationship. Eventually they hook up and it's Alcuin who kind of chases Delaunay.
Evelyne Crowe:
But Phedre is the one who told Delaunay about Alcuin's feelings.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. And I think that is part of this aspect of her character where she gets pleasure from pain. So she's seeing them together and she's like, "Oh, it hurts so good." Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because she doesn't really want Delaunay.
Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
She kind of does.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. But she feels anguish of knowing that ultimately he chose Alcuin.
Evelyne Crowe:
And the pain of knowing that he's now telling Alcuin secrets that he's not telling her.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
The whole thing.
Daniella Drake:
And that is part of her character. And it's very believable. It's very realistic. And I love the way that Carey puts that in there because it just makes sense.
Evelyne Crowe:
Or that she leaves the house to get in trouble.
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
She's like, "I'm going to sneak out." And Delaunay is like, "I will completely break your contract and sell you."
Daniella Drake:
And this is one of those times where she's sitting there going, "Oh shit. He's serious."
Evelyne Crowe:
Serious.
Daniella Drake:
"If I do this again, he's done with me."
Evelyne Crowe:
Fucking serious.
Daniella Drake:
And she goes, "Okay, we're not playing around then."
Evelyne Crowe:
"I'm not going to do that again."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She's like, "I'm reading you. I understand that you don't like the bratty side, so we're not doing that."
Evelyne Crowe:
No. So she is basically every submissive ever to live, ever-
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
... in one package. So if you are in the community and you are as submissive, you are a Phedre.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
You are into pain. You are into dominance, you are into submissive, you are into humiliation. You are into pain. You are into bratting. You are into everything. I am not joking.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because Kushiel does not discriminate.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely not
.Evelyne Crowe:
The emotional pain is just as key as the physical.
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
And it's not always wanted.
Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
And that is just as key. And she actually goes to the temple of Kushiel at one point after she did come back from the slavery because she hates it so much because it was not wanted. It was slavery. And they come back and Joscelin, who is a priest, it was like, "No, you are rebelling against part of you."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. "You're rebelling against who you are."
Evelyne Crowe:
"Kushiel's Dart makes you this way and you are hating it. You need to go to... "
-Daniella Drake:
"And be cleansed."
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay.
Daniella Drake:
And they whipped the shit out of her. It's intense.
Evelyne Crowe:
It was really cleansing experience.
Daniella Drake:
It's intense, but she feels better after it. She feels absolved. She feels relief. And they talk to her as they're like, "Listen, you had no choice. This was not something you chose. This was done to you. You can't help who you are. You need to reconcile that." And she feels better after she leaves. Yeah. That was intense. Intense. So we do also need to talk about the hierarchy in that, because they are such an ethnocentric. Well, that's hard to say. When I'm sober, it's so much harder when I'm drunk. The ethnocentricity of this culture. There is also a couple of other cultures that are present in this country, the Tsingani, who are basically representative of the Romani culture and the Yeshuites, who are basically very, very, very early Christians.
Evelyne Crowe:
So the Yeshuites are actually very closely tied to the Cassiel Brotherhood.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, absolutely. And actually, a lot of the aspects of their religion are very Hebrew, because it would be.
Evelyne Crowe:
It would be. So I guess the premise is that it was so far back that the Yeshuites had not completely separated from Jewish religion yet.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
So they believe that Jesus is their Messiah, but they're still celebrating certain Jewish holidays and they still speak-
Daniella Drake:
Yes. And their culture is still very inherently Jewish. Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Which is really cool
Daniella Drake:
The way that she encapsulates that transition was really, really cool, I thought
Evelyne Crowe:
And Cassiel being so severe and as sticking to the whole one god thing is very, it would make sense that they would be like, "Oh the Yeshuites, they're like us."
Daniella Drake:
That they would understand each other and be able to connect in a way that maybe even within the culture of Terre d'Ange, they maybe might not be.
Evelyne Crowe:
However, the culture of Terre d'Ange looks down on both of these cultures.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because they're not descended from angels. How can they be special?
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And it's unfortunate. I mean, with the Tsingani representative of the Romani culture, I mean, there is a little bit, I will say that Jacqueline Carey does make an effort to have, there's a whole section of her book where they're in one of the Tsingani camps and she's showing that they're just people like anybody else, and they're just trying to make their way through whatever. And I appreciate that very much. But there is, it's a little bit problematic because she's also not part of that culture.
Evelyne Crowe:
She's not part of the culture. She's writing from the point of, she's not writing from the point of view of that culture, but she is writing to that culture and it's very definitely coded Romani.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Yes. And it's just worth pointing out that obviously she's not part of that culture. And so-
Evelyne Crowe:
Going in [inaudible 00:42:10]-
Daniella Drake:
I don't know.
Evelyne Crowe:
... that it is definitely coded.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
So content warning that.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
So they go to slavery.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And Joscelin slowly during this time of slavery. So it takes slavery for Joscelin to slowly break every single one of his vows. And he is a serious vow person. Joscelin-
Daniella Drake:
Oh my gosh.
Evelyne Crowe:
... is not silly.
Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
Joscelin is very serious.
Daniella Drake:
Very.
Evelyne Crowe:
He's a serious person. He breaks every serious vow except one. And that is protect and serve.
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
He will protect Phedre no matter what.
Daniella Drake:
I did love all the exchanges with Phedre and Joscelin, because he thinks in the beginning that she betrayed him.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
So he refuses to talk to her. He refuses to eat. He refuses all these things.
Evelyne Crowe:
He [inaudible 00:43:25] or whatever.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. Yeah. And she's sitting there going, "My dude, we're the only two out here. You're the only other one that gets me. What the fuck are you doing?" But I love it. One of the few times that you really see Phedre who's just at her wits end going, "What the fuck are you doing?"
Evelyne Crowe:
She never yells. She never really gets mad. And every once in a while, you just see her go, "Jesus Christ, Joscelin."Daniella Drake:
"What the fuck?" And it works though. She snaps him out of it. I know, I spent so much of this book being frustrated with him. But by the end, you are so rooting for him.
Evelyne Crowe:
You are.
Daniella Drake:
You just want him to succeed.
Evelyne Crowe:
You do.Daniella Drake:
And be happy.
Evelyne Crowe:
You do.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because they do go through it.
Daniella Drake:
They go through it. Oh my God.
Evelyne Crowe:
I don't think I'll ever get out of my head the image of Joscelin when Phedre starts stacking barrels, and he goes up onto these beams and it is like, "I got to go listen to these guys." And he's like, "Are you crazy?"
Daniella Drake:
I feel like so much of their relationship is her being like, "No, I have to do this thing." And him going, "What the fuck?"
Evelyne Crowe:
And then they have sex in a cave.
Daniella Drake:
But it's okay because it's where all the angels stayed when they were roaming. So it doesn't count.
Evelyne Crowe:
It doesn't count.
Daniella Drake:
That's what Joscelin tells himself.
Evelyne Crowe:
And Joscelin is apparently, when you're born a Terre d'Ange, you're just-
Daniella Drake:
You just know. I do think it's hilarious that they keep referring to the clitoris as the, what do they call it? The bud-
Evelyne Crowe:
The bud
Daniella Drake:
Of Naamah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Of Naamah.
Daniella Drake:
Which I think is so amazing.
Evelyne Crowe:
The bud of Naamah. Oh-
Daniella Drake:
Makes me giggle.
Evelyne Crowe:
... this is the best part though. Birth control in Terre d'Ange, the gift of, is her name Eisheth or whatever her name.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
So when you don't want kids, you just don't have kids until you go to a temple and you make a prayer and light a candle-
Daniella Drake:
And that's when-
Evelyne Crowe:
And then your womb opens.
Daniella Drake:
That's when you become fertile. But this is why you can have an entire culture of people who are literally having sex as-
Evelyne Crowe:
All the fucking time.
Daniella Drake:
As their religion.
Evelyne Crowe:
Now, we had talked a lot about the beginning and the setting up.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
We have not talked about the straits.
Daniella Drake:
Indeed.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because that is weird as fuck.D
aniella Drake:
It's so strange.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because in order to settle all of this, we have to get more men because we are invading, the Vikings are invading.
Daniella Drake:
The Germanic tribes, whoever the Skaldi... I know, but whoever the Skaldi are, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be Germanic.
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay. But they're Viking.
Daniella Drake:
Because they're across the border from-
Evelyne Crowe:
But they're Viking.
Daniella Drake:
... quote unquote "France."
Evelyne Crowe:
They're Viking.
Daniella Drake:
They are, yes. But in this alternate history, they're called the Skaldi.
Evelyne Crowe:
But there's a prophecy.
Daniella Drake:
Always. There's always a prophecy.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because this is how fantasy works.
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
I love fucking fantasy.
Daniella Drake:
I know.
Evelyne Crowe:
So again, because it's a Christianesque culture, across the sea, we have Alba, which is England.
Daniella Drake:
Alba is Scotland.
Evelyne Crowe:
Scotland.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
We don't really see England. We see Ireland and Scotland.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
So the princess is like, "You need to figure out a way."
Daniella Drake:
She goes, "What the hell are you thinking sending me on a diplomatic mission?"
Evelyne Crowe:
But she goes, because her princess has commanded her.
Daniella Drake:
She does.
Evelyne Crowe:
And so she does what her training has taught her, and she sleeps with everyone.
Daniella Drake:
And it works, and it solves all the problems.
Evelyne Crowe:
And it works and solves all the problems. It's amazing.
Daniella Drake:
I love it too, because they lampshade it. Characters are literally going, "You can't solve all the problems in the world with sex." And she's like, "Well, it's worked so far."
Evelyne Crowe:
It's amazing. She's like, "Well, I don't know. It seems to be working."
Daniella Drake:
But she also acquires a bunch of chevaliers who are basically nice.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh my God. Phedre's boys are my favorite.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Because they're basically pledged to her now, and they're like, "No, you need to knight us." And she goes, "I don't think I have that power." And they're, "No, you do."
Evelyne Crowe:
And Joscelin's like, "No, you do."
Daniella Drake:
"You're the queen's emissary. So you get to do this." And she's like, "Ah, I don't want to."
Evelyne Crowe:
"I do? I can? Okay."
Daniella Drake:
And it will solve, the whole thing is so funny.
Evelyne Crowe:
[inaudible 00:48:43], there's a whole chant. It's amazing.
Daniella Drake:
Oh, it's so good. It's so good.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh my God.
Daniella Drake:
I love it so much.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's amazing.
Daniella Drake:
Now, Isidore d'Aiglemort.
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Is a national hero at the end of this almost.
Daniella Drake:
I mean, he goes through phases. Through the book, at first he's a hero, then he is not then he is again.
Evelyne Crowe:
It is complicated for Isidore because-
Daniella Drake:
It is.
Evelyne Crowe:
He's a traitor to the crown because he is inviting a foreign force into the, come invade our villages, come.
Daniella Drake:
But why?
Evelyne Crowe:
But then he finds out-
Daniella Drake:
But why? Yeah. It's because he was fostered with the Shahrizai, who is Melisande clan. So he learned, the whole thing in this world is that the scions of Camille think with their swords, they're not seen as intellectual. They're not seen as very smart. But he fostered with the Shahrizai who are. So he has this education from Melisande's people in politics, and probably from Melisande herself, who's like, "We can make you king. Just do what I say, and I'm going to take care of the rest." And he believed her because why wouldn't he? Why wouldn't he?
Evelyne Crowe:
It's important to note that even in this society that is so open-minded, misogyny is not something that is unheard of.
Daniella Drake:
Correct.
Evelyne Crowe:
And a woman is more trustworthy than a man. Why would a woman lie to you?
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Right. Absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
A woman wouldn't betray you. A woman is not going to have their sight set above you.
Daniella Drake:
A woman is not playing the Game of Thrones. And Melisande knows this, and she uses it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely. She fucking uses the fucking patriarchy to her advantage. And this is what makes her the best villains ever written.
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
I will-
Daniella Drake:
Yep. This was Delaunay's downfall. This was Isidore's downfall. This was [inaudible 00:51:15] downfall. All of the men that fell, fell because of Melisande.
Evelyne Crowe:
I will say this till the day I die. She's one of the best villains ever written because-
Daniella Drake:
Ever.
Evelyne Crowe:
... men continually underestimated her-
Daniella Drake:
And disregarded her.
Evelyne Crowe:
And disregarded her to their detriment. I mean, she-
Daniella Drake:
She played them like a fiddle. Yep. Waldemar Selig, she played like a fiddle. All of them.
Evelyne Crowe:
All of them.
Daniella Drake:
And she's just back there moving their chess pieces.
Evelyne Crowe:
If I read it today, I don't think it would be so problematic that it would make me go, I can't read it.
Daniella Drake:
I agree. I don't think that I would DNF it.
Evelyne Crowe:
I do not think so. And I still recommend it to people with the, here are the consequences.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. You have to have the caveat of, listen, there are some issues I just want you to be aware of. Yeah. Okay. So next time we're going to be talking about Morning Glory Milking Farm by C.M. Nascosta.
Evelyne Crowe:
One of my favorite books ever.
Daniella Drake:
Nascosta.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
Thank you. I've had too much to drink. So yeah. So join us next week. This has been Intoxicated Literature. I am Daniella Drake.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I'm Evelyne Crowe.
Daniella Drake:
And we hope to see you next time.
Speaker 3:
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well Friends.
