Spoiler Alert

Daniella and Evelyne discuss Spoiler Alert by Olivia Dade. Topics include using the term “plus size” versus “fat” as descriptors, the attractiveness of dad bods, and actors creating a public persona for interviews and appearances.

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Announcer:

This is Intoxicated Literature.

Daniella Drake:

Hello. Welcome to Intoxicated Literature. I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm Evelyne Crowe. We are reading Spoiler Alert by Olivia Dade.

Daniella Drake:

Yes, we are. And before we get started, just want to remind you that there will be massive spoilers for the book. So if you have not read it, go read it, come back, with a drink in hand preferably, but your choice.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. Yeah, total spoilers, adult content.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. Lots of adult content.

Evelyne Crowe:

Over 18, and profanity. So if any of that is not for you, goodbye.

Daniella Drake:

Displeasing. Yeah. Goodbye, it's been nice seeing you.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. Okay. So we are reading this in conjunction... It's kind of like one of those volcano Armageddon duos.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. Exactly. We just read these at the same time because we thought it would be an interesting compare and contrast exercise in romance novels that involve the entertainment industry, because I work in it and we thought it would be funny if we saw...

Evelyne Crowe:

I thought it would be hilarious because it would drive her crazy.

Daniella Drake:

The first one drove me more crazy than this one.

Evelyne Crowe:

I like driving her crazy. I'm an older sister.

Daniella Drake:

That is true.

Evelyne Crowe:

Really, the other one drove you more crazy than this one? Well, I guess they weren't on set in this one a lot.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. This one was more... The first one, I had more technical issues. Whereas this one was less about the entertainment industry as it was about fan fiction and stuff, which I don't really know that much about. So I was able to just kind of coast along and enjoy it.

Evelyne Crowe:

This one, I will say, was definitely more... I don't want to be insulting when I say this, but it was definitely more two-dimensional.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. It's funny...

Evelyne Crowe:

It was more surface level. That's what I mean. It's like surface-level fame.

Daniella Drake:

It's actually really funny to me because the first one, Seeking Stars by Leonor Soliz, I thought was much better at the character development and growth, and I really liked the characters better. But Spoiler Alert, I thought was better with plot. There was a lot more happening. Seeking Stars was really just the two of them talking the entire book, and I got a little bit bored. And that's not to say that I didn't enjoy the book. I finished it and I thought it was very good. But this one I thought handled the pacing better I would say. But I liked them both, probably equally. I thought they were both very well written. I thought they were both very fun. This one, I really liked that April, the main protagonist, she is a geologist, which you don't see that often, and I thought that was really cool.

Evelyne Crowe:

I actually met a... One of the moms at preschool my kids went to was a geologist, and I used to ask her questions all the fucking time about fucking rocks. It was so weird.

Daniella Drake:

One of our mom's best friends used to be a biologist before she moved away, and I... Or a biologist, geologist. And I used to ask her all these questions. I was just like, "What about this? What's this rock?" She'd be like, "Okay."

Evelyne Crowe:

Rocks confuse the fuck out of me.

Daniella Drake:

I know.

Evelyne Crowe:

I love science. I love science, but I'm like a biologist. I can look at animals and even plants to a large degree and be like, "I know what those are", but I could not look at granite and graphite and tell you the difference. I have no fucking idea the difference between those two.

Daniella Drake:

I loved this because when I was in college, one of my favorite classes I ever took, I took because it was supposed to be an easy science class, because I was not very good at science. It was geology for second grade teachers. And it actually explained geology to me in a way that I understood, because apparently I understand science at a second grade level.

Evelyne Crowe:

You went to geology at a second grade level, not science.

Daniella Drake:

I loved that she was a geologist and she was super, super smart and really thoughtful. And the whole thing about her character was seeing beneath the surface. And she sets that up so, so well right out the gate. The first thing that we see of her is testing samples from this contaminated land outside of I think a refinery of some kind. So I thought that was such a great setup so early on, and it plays so well throughout the book. That was really a genius moment for Olivia Dade, I thought.

Evelyne Crowe:

I agree.

Daniella Drake:

She did that so well. Especially because when you think about Marcus, he has this kind of public role that he plays. And as someone in the industry, I can confirm this is something that actors do because that is the only way that you can protect any modicum of privacy, is to kind of put on this character.

Evelyne Crowe:

And just be acting all the time.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. And that way you don't have to share all of yourself with everyone. And I get it. I can only imagine how exhausting it must be.

Evelyne Crowe:

To a smaller degree, it's what people do when you go to work-

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely.

Evelyne Crowe:

... Versus how you are at home.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely. It's no different. You go to a networking event and you put on a face, and that's because... Because as an introvert especially, I kind of have to do that in order to get myself to be a little bit extroverted and meet people and network in that way. It is not easy for me at all. I really struggle with it. And it's not great because in my industry specifically, it's really important to make those connections because it's about who you know and not necessarily what you know that gets you your next job.

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly.

Daniella Drake:

So this book I thought did a really good job of showing how Marcus has used this kind of coping mechanism of pretending to be this kind of dim-witted, vain, really sexy, but not interesting person to kind of deflect attention. And I thought that was really insightful and I thought it was really smart. And I really appreciated it because I can imagine that there are probably... I mean, I can think of a few actors off the top of my head that probably do this.

Evelyne Crowe:

I think Chris Evans might be one of them.

Daniella Drake:

I think so too. And he's actually well documented that he's got anxiety and he doesn't like being in the limelight. So not wanting that attention and being able to deflect it by not being that interesting is something I could see happening. So that felt very realistic in this book. And I did feel a lot of sympathy for Marcus, because I felt like he... You start a relationship with someone, you ask someone out and they say yes, but you've built this kind of idea of who you are, and then you're not that at all. And then that person starts to see who you really are and they're like, "Oh, this is false advertising. This is not what I thought I was going to get." And so he's hurt because they don't like who he actually is, but at the same time, he's been pretending to be this other person, so whose fault... There's no fault really.

Evelyne Crowe:

There's no fault.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. Well, and this book in particular is dealing with the social expectations of appearances-

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely.

Evelyne Crowe:

... And how that affects people.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

And that is extremely... This was actually, when I read this, God, it was years ago, so many years ago, and I actually think I was fat when I read this book years ago. Or not...

Daniella Drake:

I'm sorry, it's not funny, but just hearing you say, "Back when I was fat."

Evelyne Crowe:

I was.

Daniella Drake:

No, I know.

Evelyne Crowe:

People don't say fat very often. [inaudible 00:08:16].

Daniella Drake:

I know. That is one of the things that I actually really liked about this book is she was calling herself fat in multiple times, and she was like, "I'm not saying that to be derogatory. I'm using that as a descriptor. That is what I am. I'm not offended by it."

Evelyne Crowe:

I do try to avoid the word plus size because people try to use it to be polite, and you're just like...

Daniella Drake:

And I think it's misleading because our idea of what plus size is doesn't necessarily mean fat, it means normal.

Evelyne Crowe:

No. And people use fat to be derogatory, but you're just like, "I'm just fat."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

That's just what I am. It's not a bad thing to be fat.

Daniella Drake:

Right. Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I was fat, and that was fine. I was fine with being fat at the time. I was not saying that was a bad thing. But having been fat, I can understand her inner monologue in this book extremely well. There is a trigger warning for anyone reading this because there are definite moments, and I think that this book should probably come with a couple of trigger warnings regarding eating and food and diet talk a little bit. It's not extreme. It's very mild, because she's not on diet, she's not trying to lose weight, but just the societal aspects of it.

Daniella Drake:

Well, and a lot of it is her remembering people having that expectation and trying to force that expectation onto her.

Evelyne Crowe:

I would say it's more mild to medium, and it's more of her internal expectations of it, which are totally normal if you are fat especially.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely.

Evelyne Crowe:

And every time she was out to eat somewhere and anyone said anything about food, she would immediately put a negative spin on it, which is completely a normal thing to do for a fat person.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because you're just automatically thinking they're thinking of everything I'm putting into my mouth.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because you think they are, you just think they are.

Daniella Drake:

Well, because historically people have been trying to point you to the healthier options or...

Evelyne Crowe:

"Why don't you have a salad? Why don't you maybe skip dessert? Maybe we should do this instead. Why don't you have half of that?"

Daniella Drake:

Which they think they're being helpful, but really it's just hurtful, because you're not really acknowledging this is who you are and I'm trying to change you fundamentally.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes, exactly. So there is some of that in this book. And I actually think it was a really good conversation that they had about it.

Daniella Drake:

I loved it. I actually loved it too, because the juxtaposition, yes, I'm drunk and I'm still using the word juxtaposition. The juxtaposition between Marcus and April, Marcus is a leading man, he is an actor in a very hot Hollywood show. He is chiseled and ripped and just looks amazing. They talk about, multiple times they talk about how beautiful he is and his showrunners, which are terrible people, talk about how pretty he is and how lucky they were to find someone so pretty. And the juxtaposition of that with April, who is also very pretty, but she happens to be overweight. And so the juxtaposition of the expectations of Marcus, who is this beautiful dim-witted person to a lot of the public audience also as parents, which we should talk about later, and then April who is very smart, very capable, so sweet, so supportive, the nicest person, but she happens to be overweight.

And the expectations then that fall on her because of what she looks like. And I loved that. I loved that part of this book, showing that it doesn't matter what you look like, you're still going to have weird expectations around based off of what society says is normal and acceptable.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. And this has nothing to do with this book, this just happened to be a thought that popped into my head while reading this book. This book has nothing to do with that, and it just happened to happen while I was reading it in the series of this podcast. So sorry Ms. Dade, this is not on you. So many books deal with fat female main characters. Where are all my fat male main characters?

Daniella Drake:

I actually had that thought too, because we read this in conjunction with Seeking Stars as kind of a twofer. And I actually had that thought too, where it would've been nice to see an established actor who maybe wasn't conforming to society's standards of beauty, who maybe was a little bit heavyset. And listen, this is the thing I think about a lot actually, is how detrimental the male gaze has been, not just to women, but to men also.

Evelyne Crowe:

Well, I wish that that would've been discussed, on how... Because they're anorexic actually.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

It is not healthy.

Daniella Drake:

Do you know how much body fat you need to have in order to show off your abs like that?

Evelyne Crowe:

10%.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. And do you know how unhealthy that is?

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. It's nuts how not healthy that is.

Daniella Drake:

It's so, so bad.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's not okay actually that is becoming the norm for men.

Daniella Drake:

And it's funny to me because what is driving this is not women.

Evelyne Crowe:

No.

Daniella Drake:

It's men.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

Because men think that that's what women want. That's what men think when they think beauty. For men, they think, "Oh, showing off these ripped muscles, this is amazing." That is still the male gaze.

Evelyne Crowe:

The dad bod.

Daniella Drake:

Ugh. Hot.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's extremely attractive.

Daniella Drake:

Super hot. And I actually would have loved to have seen two people with normal bodies. That would've made this book so much better.

Evelyne Crowe:

Or a discussion, like if they were in a restaurant and he's like, "I can only eat this meat", or, "I have to eat 5,000 calories of protein."

Daniella Drake:

So there was one scene in particular that I'm thinking of where she took exception to him after their second date where he was like, "Do you want to go to the gym with me?" And she flipped out, because she assumed that he was trying to change her or make her workout or whatever.

Evelyne Crowe:

But he just had to go to the gym.

Daniella Drake:

Right. But after that, when she realized that he didn't mean anything by it, he really was just trying to include her in something that he does on the daily, right? This is just part of his routine. And so she realizes, "Oh, I overreacted because of my own issues. Yes, let's go on a third date." And they go out, and they go back to her place, and he says, "Listen, we had 15 donuts today. I'm not going to eat anything else because I have to be back at work on Monday and I have to be looking like this. And if I don't look like this, I'm not going to get the part that I auditioned for, so I'm not going to eat anymore. But if you want to eat something, you should. Absolutely. I'm not going to stop you, I wish you would."

Just because I have to watch what I'm eating doesn't mean that you do. And I actually really liked that moment for a lot of reasons, but mostly because he was making a point to say, "I'm acknowledging that I'm on a diet, but that doesn't mean that you are and I don't expect you to be." And that was such a healthier look on things where it's like, just because I'm doing this thing doesn't mean you have to do this thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely. Absolutely. This book I think was definitely touching on that more, because society sees just that superficial, this is what people see aspect of it.

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

With seeking stars, it delves much more into the character aspect of it. And this book is much more, what are people looking at?

Daniella Drake:

Well, I also thought it was interesting because the description of Ana in Seeking Stars, she never actually explicitly says the word fat.

Evelyne Crowe:

She doesn't.

Daniella Drake:

In the entire book, she never actually says fat. And her manager Diana does say at one point very carefully, "You would be considered plus size." So I'm not saying that she is super skinny and the traditional skin and bones that we tend to think of models, right? Where they have no fat on them at all. Obviously she is thicker, she's got the thick thighs. We can all relate, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh, yeah.

Daniella Drake:

But in this book, in Spoiler Alert, she very clearly says the word fat multiple times. She is very clearly making a point of saying, "This is not a plus size woman the way that you think of a plus size woman. This is a fat woman." And I actually really appreciated that because it was like, I want to make it clear, this is not... There's no room for miscommunication here. I'm not calling her curvy, I'm not calling her...

Evelyne Crowe:

I wish more authors would do that, honest to God.

Daniella Drake:

I agree. I thought it was refreshing.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh God, I'm so tired of the wishy-washy language that's in these books because it's like, okay, are they curvy? Are they not curvy? Are they plus size?

Daniella Drake:

Well, that's the thing. I technically have an hourglass figure, but I wouldn't consider myself plus size.

Evelyne Crowe:

You are nowhere near plus size. I'm not plus size.

Daniella Drake:

Right. And so for me, when I hear a descriptor that says curvy, I think me, because I live in this body and so that's what I associate with curvy, right? But also when someone says plus size, I think bigger than me.

Evelyne Crowe:

I mean, because curvy can also... But there's Kat Dennings who is amazing.

Daniella Drake:

Right. Oh, I fucking love her.

Evelyne Crowe:

Beautiful. Beautiful figure. Curvy as fuck. But also could be, if she's a size 16, plus size.

Daniella Drake:

Because she's not stick thin.

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly.

Daniella Drake:

And so if someone says plus size, that's kind of where my mind goes. If someone says fat, I think fat. And I wish that that happened more.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

There's no reason not to.

Evelyne Crowe:

And there are books that do have plus size men in them, and we should read some.

Daniella Drake:

We should.

Evelyne Crowe:

I can put them on the list, and we'll read them, because I have, I've read them. And Rebecca Witherspoon, if you want to start reading her, she's [inaudible 00:18:47].

Daniella Drake:

I do. I actually have a few on her, on my TBR by her actually, because I love her, just as a person.

Evelyne Crowe:

There are some that do exist, plus size guy, but they are so few and far between. And it's actually why I, and I'm going to plug myself here, but it's why I wrote one into my last book, because I was just like, "Come on, there's got to be." There has to be a guy who is both more submissive in bed, but also masculine and plus size. They exist.

Daniella Drake:

For sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it happens.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's not something that is forbidden.

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

What the fuck, you guys? Come on.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, I did have that thought when I was reading both these books, was just like, "Why can't the guy have a normal body?" Maybe not even plus size, just like a normal healthy male body. That would be nice to see.

Evelyne Crowe:

But this book deals with a lot of insecurity issues and just how people portray themselves to different people in general. And I think it's interesting. I actually really like the fact that... I don't like it, but that Marcus had dyslexia and had to battle a learning disability growing up.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. Can we talk about the parents in this book?

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

All of them, because what-

Evelyne Crowe:

[inaudible 00:20:28].

Daniella Drake:

... The actual fuck? Marcus's parents are supposed to be these erudite professors.

Evelyne Crowe:

But you know what? I was a teacher in a university town, and professors are the fucking worst.

Daniella Drake:

Well, professors are kind of out of touch. They just kind of are. They're in their own little world.

Evelyne Crowe:

They are just fucking worse, and that's all I will say about them.

Daniella Drake:

To have such a horrible experience with parents that are supposed to love and support you, and all they do is put you down and tell you you're stupid and that you're not good enough. And because you literally have dyslexia and you can't read the way that neuro-typical people do.

Evelyne Crowe:

Which is like, it's so common.

Daniella Drake:

It's so common.

Evelyne Crowe:

With kids with learning disabilities experience education.

Daniella Drake:

It's so frustrating. It's like you don't think for a minute that there might be something else going on?

Evelyne Crowe:

And the teacher in me just wanted to wrap poor Marcus in a blanket and be like, "I'm sorry. I wish I had been there as a teacher for you when you were small. I would've helped you."

Daniella Drake:

The human being in me would be... I was like, "I will school your parents into how they have failed you. What the actual fuck?"

And then him feeling like he had to adopt a persona to protect himself. There's so much wrong in that scenario, that I was so mad. I was so, so mad. And then April's parents just as bad in their own way. Her dad obviously is just a superficial asshole. I'm dismissing him entirely because he is unredeemable. But her mom, the thing is about her mom is that she obviously does love her. And she obviously is trying to protect her and help her, but by trying to help her and protect her, she actually is doing more damage, because she's reinforcing this idea that you aren't right. There's something wrong with you. And every time she says, "Hey, there's this really low calorie thing on this menu", it's just reinforcing that idea that there's something wrong with her. And she's not thinking that. She's thinking, "I am trying to get your dad to love you." And there's so much wrong there.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

It was so upsetting. I was so pissed off for the whole thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

And then she takes Marcus in there unsuspecting, and he's thinking, I'm going to take her father's attention so she doesn't have to deal with him and be her white knight or whatever, and does the complete opposite of what she wants, which is to prove that he's with her to be with her and support her and be there for her. And he just kind of abandons her. And she's so mad. But even she when she's telling him about it, she's like, "I did not prepare you. I didn't tell you what I needed. That was on me." But also, you just left me hanging out there to dry my dude. I'll say too, I felt like this book, it didn't have as much character growth for me as Seeking Stars, but there were moments where I felt like the characters had a lot of insight that I wouldn't have expected.

Evelyne Crowe:

They definitely had more moments of introspection that you're just like, "Oh." All of a sudden, you're just like, "Woo."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

There it is.

Daniella Drake:

That whole last fight that they have when she finds out that he's actually her best friend and is writing this fan fiction, and she's like, "You've lied to me and you didn't trust me", and whatever. And then she sees the actual repercussions that could have happened to him. And she's like, "Oh shit, I didn't actually understand. My bad, my bad." And it's nice in a way, because you don't see either one of them having to explain three or four times in different ways, "Here's how that made me feel." It's just like, "Oh shit. I did not understand. My B, My B."

Evelyne Crowe:

Super confused. Whoa.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

Miscommunication, sorry.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Sorry.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

Sorry.

Daniella Drake:

So I did appreciate that. For sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, there was no prolonged period of miscommunication. It was just like miscommunication, miscommunication, whoa, I understand. Fix the miscommunication.

Daniella Drake:

I'd done fucked up because of my own trust issues, I see that now. I'm sorry. Yeah, I appreciated that quite a bit.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes, absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

I did enjoy the... So again, we've talked about the fact that neither one of us have really read a lot of fan fiction. I'm not down on fan fiction, I just haven't read a lot of it.

Daniella Drake:

Same.

Evelyne Crowe:

I did enjoy the fact that he had a whole fan fiction persona in which he was writing fan fiction for his own show. I thought that was hilarious.

Daniella Drake:

I actually thought that was the best part of the book.

Evelyne Crowe:

I think it's hilarious.

Daniella Drake:

I can think of so many actors who are so beyond well-educated, who are reading these things based off of classical literature that get it so, so wrong, and just feeling like they have to go on and correct the story.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's so funny because I was actually... Again, I'm not going to point out specific writers of these reviews or anything, that is not my job. [inaudible 00:26:14]. Respect the readers, they have their own opinions.

Daniella Drake:

Sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

But they were really down on the fact that Marcus was writing fan fiction for his own show and that it was unprofessional. And I'm like, he's writing under a pseudonym-

Daniella Drake:

Well, this is the thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

... No one knows it was him.

Daniella Drake:

Fan fiction would be the only way that he would have that outlet, because these contracts that they signed, the NDAs, having signed NDAs myself, they are insane. They are insane. And they can sue you for the slightest breach. You could just be in a cafe and say an offhand comment about not being happy with the way the last season went, and that's it. And they could sue you. It's so crazy. So I think that's hilarious, because this would be the only way. Let's say that you were an actor and your major was in classical literature. And you are now starring in this role of Aeneas, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Aeneas.

Daniella Drake:

Am I saying that right? Aeneas.

Evelyne Crowe:

Aeneas. I actually studied comparative literature, that is my major.

Daniella Drake:

And I did not.

Evelyne Crowe:

We compliment each other.

Daniella Drake:

But I'm just saying he understands the source material in a way that a lot of actors would not, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Well, he read the original books too. He knows the story.

Daniella Drake:

And he's seeing the way that this is kind of... Where it's going, and how it's changing, and how it's so opposite from what the author intended. And there would be no way for him to combat that in any way, shape, or form, because if you said anything derogatory in any interview, you would be sued. And I got to say, after meeting those showrunners of his, they are litigious as and terrible people. So I don't blame him at all for turning to fan fiction. Of course he would. There's no alternative. What is he supposed to do?

Evelyne Crowe:

I know he's got a pseudonym, no one knows who he's, he's just out there writing fan fiction. I'm like, why not, man? Go for it my dude. Write the fan fiction.

Daniella Drake:

I actually think that's the better recourse than his best friend Alex, who has these moments of just insanity where he ruins his career. And this is not the first time that he's done something like this.

Evelyne Crowe:

I read his book actually.

Daniella Drake:

Oh, really?

Evelyne Crowe:

I did.

Daniella Drake:

Was it good?

Evelyne Crowe:

It was good.

Daniella Drake:

I can imagine. He was an interesting character.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, it was good. He has ADD, which is why he does the impulsiveness.

Daniella Drake:

Oh, interesting. Okay, okay. I loved the conversation around him and his handler Lauren.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

And I loved that Marcus described her as round and cute like a little bird. That was one of the funniest descriptions I have ever seen in my entire life. I laughed for a good five minutes straight because I can picture exactly what he was talking about.

Evelyne Crowe:

The nickname that the only character has in that book is, he calls her Ren.

Daniella Drake:

That is exactly what I was picturing. It was perfect.

Evelyne Crowe:

Her whole outlook the whole time is like, "Oh, why am I here? I don't even... Oh my God."

Daniella Drake:

I loved it.

Evelyne Crowe:

But no, he is hilarious. He lives in one of those houses in Beverly Hills that you see that looks like a fucking castle on the outside, because he wanted to live in a fucking castle.

Daniella Drake:

That checks out.

Evelyne Crowe:

And so she pulls up into his house and she's like, "Where the fuck are we? Are we still in LA? Is this a castle?" And he's like, "Yeah, I wanted live in a castle." And she's like, "Okay."

Daniella Drake:

"Okay." Yeah. Sure, why not? But I love how quickly he becomes protective of her and how quickly her being attacked in any way, shape, or form becomes his catalyst to then destroy everything. Just burn it to the ground. He's so done. And I love that. I thought Alex was such a great best friend for Marcus. I thought that was so, so good. And it was actually really interesting to me going back to Seeking Stars, because in this book, Marcus is the one that has the really close best friend, and April is kind of finding her footing. And I thought that was a really interesting juxtaposition, for lack of a better word.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because in this one too, April is the scientist, but she has the secret persona of being this geek person who has... She dresses up and she wants to go to this convention. She's kind of a nerd. And I'm just like, "Man, love that geek hang out, man."

Daniella Drake:

Right. I'm like, I don't think anyone would care that much in the science world. They'd probably be like, "Okay."

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. Let that geek hang out, man.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I don't think it would be that big of a deal, but what do I know?

Evelyne Crowe:

So both of them though, had this secret persona that they were hiding from the people they knew.

Daniella Drake:

But from the beginning, she was trying to shed it. She was trying to show people who she really was. She was trying to embrace herself as she was and who she was, and just let that be okay. Which I loved for her.

Evelyne Crowe:

And that took some guts to dress up as the person that she wanted. She put on a whole cosplay outfit for a character she liked in the show, and she's like, "I'm going to put this on Twitter of all places." I would've put it on fucking Instagram. At least Instagram would've been [inaudible 00:32:12]. But Twitter? I'm like, "Holy shit."

Daniella Drake:

I had a full on panic attack for her.

Evelyne Crowe:

I know.

Daniella Drake:

And I was like, "Oh God, I'm part of the problem." Because I'm like, "Don't do it. Don't do it." Because I know how mean people can be.

Evelyne Crowe:

Put it on Instagram, you can [inaudible 00:32:25] your audience on Instagram. Don't put it on Twitter.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. I was just like, people on Twitter are fucked up.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's brutal man.

Daniella Drake:

Don't put it there. They are so brutal. And then to have Marcus just immediately come to her defense and just be like, "Of course I'll take you out. But if you don't want to, obviously that's fine." I thought that was a really sweet meet cute for them. It was like, okay, that was really sweet. And she was like, "Yeah, okay. We'll go out because your Marcus and what am I going to say, no?" But I also loved at the end when they're at the convention and his co-workers are kind of taking her under their wing and they're really approving of her and being supportive. And I loved that too, because it's like these are kind of the ideals of beauty in society. These are women that are held up to these ridiculous beauty standards in Hollywood. They're skinny, they're young, they have to have perfect skin, they have to have perfect hair, all of these stupid things that don't really matter.

But because they are on-screen, they obviously work for these ideals. And to have them kind of be accepting of her and propping her up and being like, "Yes, we see you. We love you." Absolutely. I thought that was really, really sweet. And it warmed my heart quite a bit to see that.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

And that Summer texted him and was like, "You need to get in here." So that he could be in there for the Q&A. That was great.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was a fun... I would say it was a fun light, great.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely agree.

Evelyne Crowe:

With occasional moments of societal woo-hoo.

Daniella Drake:

I agree. I almost feel like in comparison to Seeking Stars, this one was trying to delve more into the kind of heavier topic. It was dealing with that a little bit more. The Seeking Stars was dealing with loneliness and in relation to fame and all of that, but it was kind of more about their relationship.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was more individual than societal.

Daniella Drake:

Yes, agreed. And this one was dealing more with forcing you to really look at how society decides these things and whether it's appropriate or whatever. But I also loved too, that both of them took steps to set boundaries with their families. And it was hard, but they had to do it. And at the end, you kind of see them having maybe not perfect relationships by any means, but relationships. They're still managing to have contact with their families and make it work in some way, shape, or form. And it's a lot healthier for each of them because they're at least being their authentic selves. So I liked that that was the way that it ended, where yes, they got together, but also they are able to navigate these kinds of treacherous waters with their families where they've got some history and they've got some beef, but they're trying to move past it. And I thought that was really good.

Evelyne Crowe:

I agree. No, I think it was a really kind of this fun... [inaudible 00:35:38] aspect was just hilarious. I thought it was so much fun.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. And I liked those little, they had these little short snippets of either scripts that he had been sent or fan-fic that they had written or their interactions on a server. I thought that was really interesting way to give a little bit more insight into either their interactions or what they were having sent to them or whatever. I actually really appreciated that. Sometimes I get annoyed with those things in books.

Evelyne Crowe:

No, this was really well done and really cute the way that Olivia Dade did that in those books.

Daniella Drake:

I absolutely agree. I thought it actually did add to the character growth and moved that forward-

Evelyne Crowe:

I agree.

Daniella Drake:

... As opposed to just kind of being there.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, I agree.

Daniella Drake:

And I love too, that she got to meet her online friends, and they were very supportive of her and accepting, and were there for her when she needed them. I loved that. I thought that was so great, and it made my heart grow three sizes.

Evelyne Crowe:

I will say that I do agree with you having read Leonor Soliz, that there was a very glaring lack of diversity in this book.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, that was one of the first things that I noticed, was in Spoiler Alert, there was not a single person of color mentioned.

Evelyne Crowe:

Which is... Okay, I don't know how many people who are listening to this live in Southern California, but white people are not the majority here.

Daniella Drake:

No, absolutely not.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it is glaringly obvious when you read or watch something when it's just white people.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. It's odd. And I know a lot of the book took place in the Bay Area, but I would argue that that is-

Evelyne Crowe:

Even so.

Daniella Drake:

... Just diverse as Southern California, so it really was surprising to me.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I say that as someone who's been to the Bay Area too. I'm not saying that as somebody who's ignorant of the Bay Area.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, I used to live in San Francisco.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, so it's like ugh.

Daniella Drake:

It was an odd choice. And I will say, it's not like there's not representation. Obviously, there's the representation for being fat.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. There's the plus size, there's the [inaudible 00:37:53].

Daniella Drake:

The plus size. I was avoiding plus size because that seems like such a not good. But yes, plus size. There's the learning disability.

Evelyne Crowe:

There's the learning disability. But still, at the same time, it's like, okay, but it's just white.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, it was just odd that there wasn't one other person.

Evelyne Crowe:

There wasn't even a homosexual person or a bi-person. I mean, it was literally heterosexual white people.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, which I thought was kind of a miss for me. Mostly because it was just odd. It just felt odd.

Evelyne Crowe:

I know. It's something I don't usually read.

Daniella Drake:

Again, I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with it. It was a fun read.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's fun. It was fine.

Daniella Drake:

It was lighthearted. It was good. It was wrestling with things that I think were really interesting and you don't see being brought up all that often.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's a traditionally published book, which says a lot for it. It's one of the most commonly published books, which are cis-het white books.

Daniella Drake:

So that was just one of the things that I noticed.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's not necessarily a down... I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

Daniella Drake:

It was just something to take notice.

Evelyne Crowe:

Take notice.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I definitely did notice that. But I enjoyed it. I thought it was interesting. I really enjoyed their banter back and forth, their little flirtations. I thought that was really sweet. So yeah, I liked it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, I agree. I think it was definitely a fun, fast read.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

And sex scenes are great.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So we had Leonor Soliz, that was the slow burn. They heated up slowly, and then we had this one which was not.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Okay. Which one did you prefer sex scenes with?

Daniella Drake:

Actually, I'm going to say Seeking Stars.

Evelyne Crowe:

I can't with you and the fucking slow burns.

Daniella Drake:

This is the thing, is because I think I am demi a little bit where you need that emotional connection. And for me, Seeking Stars really built on that foundation. Obviously this one, he knows that she is someone that he's been communing with for years, but she doesn't know that. So there's a connection on his side that isn't there on her side.

Evelyne Crowe:

Okay, but I will challenge you with this. It's a common thing with demi people, which I know. So I also consider myself demi, and that you attach yourself to people who are fictional. So don't necessarily have to have an emotional connection to a fictional person. And you can feel everything they're feeling in a fictional, imaginary thing. So you don't necessarily have to have an emotional connection with them while you're reading or seeing or observing or whatever. Ace is weird.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Ace is a weird designation.

Daniella Drake:

It is.

Evelyne Crowe:

And they could actually, a lot of ace people have whole fantasies with famous people, because they know they'll never see them ever, so it's safe.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Right?

Daniella Drake:

I get that. Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So it's kind of the same principle with romance novels. You will never see them ever in real life. So it doesn't matter if it's a slow burn, it's just kind of like porn.

Daniella Drake:

Okay. So I guess for me, I like that Liam had a beard.

Evelyne Crowe:

Okay.

Daniella Drake:

And I like a beard.

Evelyne Crowe:

Fair.

Daniella Drake:

That is very sexy.

Evelyne Crowe:

Fair.

Daniella Drake:

And Marcus is clean-shaven the entire time.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, fair.

Daniella Drake:

So I think that is partly why I liked Seeking Stars better.

Evelyne Crowe:

Fair.

Daniella Drake:

But listen, I'm not saying that the scenes were not hot. There were plenty of spicy scenes that I was like, "Oh damn."

Evelyne Crowe:

Fair.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. Yeah. So you would prefer Spoiler Alert then? I mean, obviously, because it's not a slow burn.

Evelyne Crowe:

I don't think I prefer one over the other, because they were both different.

Daniella Drake:

I just meant for spice level.

Evelyne Crowe:

Spice level, yes.

Daniella Drake:

Or the spicy scenes.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm not a fan of the slow burn.I definitely like a little bit more spice. So yes, I would take Spoiler Alert for spice.

Daniella Drake:

See, but I like those longing glances and a stolen kiss here or there, like a touch on the back-

Evelyne Crowe:

It's just that once-

Daniella Drake:

... That means more than you think.

Evelyne Crowe:

... They start doing it, then it's over. It's like literally it's 80%, and then the book ends. And you're just like, but I would like to have more scenes. But the sex...

Daniella Drake:

See, I don't really need the sex scenes. I like the buildup. And then they finally do it and you're like, "Oh, that was so satisfying." And then it's over.

Evelyne Crowe:

No. More sex, please.

Daniella Drake:

This is why we are very different people. Oh, man.

Evelyne Crowe:

All right. I think we're done.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, I think we're done. So next time, my pick, we're going to read Asiri and the Amaru by Natalia Hernandez. This is a Latin cozy fantasy based on Peruvian mythology. I have not read it yet.

Evelyne Crowe:

I have not read this one.

Daniella Drake:

But it's been on my TVR since before it came out in October. So it's been months, and I just feel like this is a great excuse to move it up to the top.

Evelyne Crowe:

You are the worst.

Daniella Drake:

I wish that you could see how many books I have on hold at the library. Yeah, so this'll be interesting because neither one of us has read it, so it'll be a nice adventure for both of us.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. It's also on my TVR, so it is good.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. So I can't wait. Yeah. This has been Intoxicated Literature. I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne Crowe:

I am Evelyne Crowe.

Announcer:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well friends.