Payback's a Witch

In which Evelyne and Daniella question their sexuality and long for a witchy autumnal town not present in Southern California.

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Speaker 1:

This is Intoxicated Literature.

Daniella Drake:

Welcome to Intoxicated Literature. I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I'm Evelyne Crowe.

Daniella Drake:

And tonight, we are talking about Payback's a Witch by Lana Harper.

Evelyne Crowe:

This is a super cute reading.

Daniella Drake:

It was so cute. It was cozy. It had great fall vibes.

Evelyne Crowe:

It did. It really did. It made me want to go to a pumpkin patch real bad.

Daniella Drake:

Right? I loved it, especially because we don't really get fall in Southern California.

Evelyne Crowe:

No, we really much get hot and not hot.

Daniella Drake:

It's summer and not summer. That's what I like to say. So before we get into it, there will be spoilers for this entire book. If you have not read this book, please go read it and come back. I don't want to ruin anything for you. Also, we do swear like sailors, so be aware. This is Intoxicated Literature. We are intoxicated and-

Evelyne Crowe:

We have no filters on. We're pretty intoxicated right now too. We've had a couple of drinks.

Daniella Drake:

We have.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's hard for this one, [inaudible 00:01:05].

Daniella Drake:

Speaking of, what are we drinking?

Evelyne Crowe:

We are drinking Witches' Brew.

Daniella Drake:

Which is quite delicious actually. Mine has ...

Evelyne Crowe:

It's amazing.

Daniella Drake:

... grenadine in it, so it looks black, but yours looks very pretty.

Evelyne Crowe:

Mine looks very blue because I did not put any grenadine in this one. I put it in last one and it looks really like puke green, but I didn't put any in this one and it looks very pretty, very pretty blue.

Daniella Drake:

It's a tasty treat.

Evelyne Crowe:

It is very good.

Daniella Drake:

I love cocktails made with pineapple juice because pineapple juice hides all manner of sins.

Evelyne Crowe:

It really does. And who doesn't ... I mean, if you don't like pineapple juice, I'm sorry. I don't know.

Daniella Drake:

I don't understand. I don't get it.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's very tasty.

Daniella Drake:

So let's get into it. I very much enjoyed this book. I've read three in the series and then I got busy and I couldn't finish, but I enjoyed all of the books that I've read by lot by Lana Harper.

Evelyne Crowe:

This was really good and I actually was saying we needed to read more sapphic books, so this was perfect.

Daniella Drake:

It was great.

Evelyne Crowe:

Right up our alley. It's fall and sapphic and-

Daniella Drake:

Let's go.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it was a good after our last one, which was so alpha male.

Daniella Drake:

This was a nice ... It has more feminine vibes. Let's just put it that way.

Evelyne Crowe:

It really, really does. So this was really good. So we have Emmy who is coming home after a long break away from her little homey town.

Daniella Drake:

Thistle Grove ...

Evelyne Crowe:

Thistle Grove.

Daniella Drake:

... which I think is an adorable magical town in so many ways. It really felt like the epitome of a fall town, which is exactly what I wanted for this time of year. So it was perfect.

Evelyne Crowe:

There are towns who in Southern California that I go to do apple picking because I'm a white woman, that's what I do in the fall. You go apple picking. So Oak Grove is where we go. Oak Grove. So you have Thistle Grove. It makes complete fucking sense to me that this would be a place that you would live. Absolutely agree.

Daniella Drake:

I think that, as a setting, Thistle Grove is so great. It gives us Stars Hollow vibe from Gilmore Girls, which was not my favorite show, but I understand the appeal.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm going to have to take your word on that because I've never actually seen more than one episode of that.

Daniella Drake:

Really? Oh, man, I binged it one season. I can't even remember when it was, but I enjoyed it to a point.

Evelyne Crowe:

I disliked that show immensely.

Daniella Drake:

That can be a different conversation because I think I know why you disliked it and I probably disliked it for the same reason.

Evelyne Crowe:

Anyway, but I believe you and that is what the name of the town is called.

Daniella Drake:

It's a small town vibes and it's very autumnal and magical and exactly what you would want for this time of year. So it was perfect timing for us to read it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely, for sure. And I really liked it because she's driving in this car with her dog who she calls like [inaudible 00:04:11] Gentleman.

Daniella Drake:

I know, I love it so much.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I just wanted to pet him. The entire book, I just wanted to pet him so badly.

Daniella Drake:

I know, I wanted some snuggles very badly. I was like, "It's snuggle time. Where is Jasper?"

Evelyne Crowe:

All I wanted to do was pet the dog and I was really mad that I couldn't pet the dog. I was very upset by this.

Daniella Drake:

That's fair. That is a fair reaction.

Evelyne Crowe:

So Thistle Grove is a magical town, from what I can tell, the only magical town that we know of in the United States.

Daniella Drake:

It does seem to be that way. It was interesting. She glosses over it. They talk about it a little bit more in the next books, but not as much as you would think like why Thistle Grove is magical. It does come from the lake, which we find out in this book, but there's not really a reason why. It's just-

Evelyne Crowe:

A magical spring that magic comes from, and woo-hoo, there's magic.

Daniella Drake:

Pretty much. Pretty much.

Evelyne Crowe:

You know what?

Daniella Drake:

You know what?

Evelyne Crowe:

It's fantasy and fantasy is magic and magic is because magic.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. I'm willing to go with it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Fine. As an author, I say, "Sure."

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. You tell me it's magical, I say, "Okay," and move on.

Evelyne Crowe:

Magic is magic, whatever.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

This is why I like fantasy. I don't like sci-fi because there's too much explanation. If you tell me it's magic because magic, fine.

Daniella Drake:

100%. Tell me a ship flies because magic, great, no problem. Tell me a ship flies and then give me all the technical stuff, I won't understand.

Evelyne Crowe:

Boring, will not read. Fast forward.

Daniella Drake:

100% agree.

Evelyne Crowe:

Just imagine big star emojis on either side and say, "Magic," like jazz hands and I'm like, "Okay, cool. I'm 100% behind that."

Daniella Drake:

And this is like they have the founding families, so you have the Harlows, the Blackmoores, the Avramovs and the Thorns and they are like the four families that founded this magical town and now they all reside there and own it. They run it, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Can we talk about how there was just a big misunderstanding?

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, let's talk about it.

Evelyne Crowe:

There was just a big fucking misunderstanding between the whole fucking families.

Daniella Drake:

Everyone. Everyone, really. But can we talk about why?

Evelyne Crowe:

Because the original Harlow founder was a big fucking asshole.

Daniella Drake:

Patriarchal bullshit is what it was, is what it was. He was like, "Oh, you didn't earn this, so you don't know that our family is actually really important."

Evelyne Crowe:

What the fuck is that about?

Daniella Drake:

What the fuck? I'm sorry, I was pissed when I found that out. And to be fair, Emmy was as well and I was on her side 100%.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely. And even her mom was like, "See, I told you, it was patriarchal bullshit. That is just some messed up shit."

Daniella Drake:

This random British woman who brought in and became a witch because she was married is like, "This is patriarchal bullshit and I told you it was."

Evelyne Crowe:

Look, look, this guy, this founder, has the most powerful magic in the fucking city and it's just like, "Oh, no, we can't tell our children about it until they earn it? What the fuck?"

Daniella Drake:

I was pissed. And you knew that it was coming because just the way that the whole setup was, the whole thing about her feeling like, "Oh, I'm just some forgotten footnote," or, "Our family is just a joke," whatever, whatever. And they said it so many times that you knew there was going to be some kind of twist, but this is not the twist I was expecting, right? This is not what I thought we were going to get and I was pissed on her behalf.

Evelyne Crowe:

Look, I have a Kindle Scribe and that is a fucking expensive Kindle and I nearly threw it across the room. I nearly frisbeed that across the room-

Daniella Drake:

Which is a fair response.

Evelyne Crowe:

So fucking pissed.

Daniella Drake:

I was also so fucking pissed. I was like, "This is the most ridiculous bullshit I have ever heard."

Evelyne Crowe:

I just ... Oh.

Daniella Drake:

And the fact that her dad went along with it also pissed me off.

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude, she was so proud of her family and how her family was supporting her and her choices and whatever and her dad pulls this shit?

Daniella Drake:

Right? I was like, "Ooh, my dude, not cool. Not cool at all."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Not cool. It's like a secret test? Like what the fuck?"

Daniella Drake:

Right. "I'm sorry. Do I need a secret test? I was born into this family. I'm the scion and I needed some kind of secret bullshit test."

Evelyne Crowe:

"What the fuck?"

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

"Everyone else knows they're the scion. Everyone else knows what they're supposed to do. Everyone else knows that ... Everyone else has a power. Everyone else knows how important they are. Why do I have to doubt myself?"

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

"What the fuck?"

Daniella Drake:

100%, it pissed me off so much. "Why do I have to prove that I'm good enough when Gareth is over there being an asshole?"

Evelyne Crowe:

[inaudible 00:09:27]. I like a picture with him doing this.

Daniella Drake:

You know what I loved though is that Emmy called him on it and even he was like, "Yeah, I know." She was like, "What the fuck, dude? Come on."

Evelyne Crowe:

"What are these, dude? What are these? What the fuck?"

Daniella Drake:

And he's like, "Well, it's part of the official regalia." She's, "Really, really?"

Evelyne Crowe:

"Really? The official regalia?"

Daniella Drake:

Can we also talk about the fact that this book, when I picked it up, I thought it was going to be like John Tucker Must Die or any of those revenge movies that you think of?

Evelyne Crowe:

Mm-hmm.

Daniella Drake:

But I love that this was revenge, "Yes, this is how it started," but it was more about evening the stakes for the town. They're talking about all of these families struggling because the Blackmoores are being greedy and they're literally making it impossible for these other businesses to survive, to thrive.

Evelyne Crowe:

Sure.

Daniella Drake:

And it's like, "Yeah, that is something that you need to fight. That's bullshit. What the fuck?"

Evelyne Crowe:

100%. As you're reading, you're like, "Wait, they have that too and that and that? Okay. No, we need to put a stop to this."

Daniella Drake:

100%. I was so frustrated with them, by the end of the book, I was like, "I'm so glad that they got put in their place because what the fuck are they doing? How do you not care about your community?"

Evelyne Crowe:

That's the thing is, how do you not even have an awareness of what is going on around you?

Daniella Drake:

Right, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

How do you not even understand that, "Wait, maybe we shouldn't have a pumpkin patch because so-and-so has a pumpkin patch"?

Daniella Drake:

Right. How about you just let them have that and then you can do your own fucking Camelot, whatever bullshit?"

Evelyne Crowe:

Right, because you're already raking in the dough with your big giant castle.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

Just let them have a pumpkin patch.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. Stop being so fucking greedy. I was tired of the Blackmoores by the end.

Evelyne Crowe:

Jesus Christ. The Blackmoores were ... Jesus Christ. The first challenge when she came up and started yelling at Emmy, I was like, "Dude, white lady, go sit down."

Daniella Drake:

And then Emmy was like, "The fuck you say?"

Evelyne Crowe:

Even the mantle, she was feeling the mantle's power and everything and I was like, "You go. You shut her down."

Daniella Drake:

But I loved it too because Emmy was having this crisis of person. She doesn't know who she is. In the whole book, she's trying to decide, right? But in this moment, she gets called out by like Igraine and the mantle is like, "What's this fucking bullshit?" She takes it and runs and she's like, "Yeah, this is bullshit. Let me put this lady in her place." And then later finds out that the mantle was part of it, but it was really just her. It was really just her going, "You're fucking out of line and I'm going to tell you so right now."

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

It was a great moment. I loved that for Emmy and I loved that for the town.

Evelyne Crowe:

For sure. Because this Blackmoore comes up and is like, "Hey, my center of one. This was all bullshit or whatever," and she's just like, "Sit your ass down. This is not in the grimoire. This is in the rules. I don't know what the fucking you're talking about. Sit your ass down." And she's all trying to come back with all these really, really slim ass rules and I just was like ... All I could think of with all those TikToks of white ladies crying with white lady tears or whatever and it was so fucking satisfying to have her ass handed to her. I was amazing.

Daniella Drake:

Because it was bullshit.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was.

Daniella Drake:

And everything she brought up, you're just like, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That's so thin. This would never hold up in a court of law. What are you even talking about?" And the mantle is like, "No, no, no. No."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Nowhere in the grimoire were these against the rules."

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

"You have to fight for it. So fight for it. You don't just get to take it."

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. Exactly. It's like, "This is not going to be easy for you. It's not supposed to be easy for you. This is a competition."

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly.

Daniella Drake:

"Just because two houses are teaming up doesn't mean anything. That's not against the rules. You have to just go with it. So fuck you."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Fuck you."

Daniella Drake:

I did love I that the whole setup of this is a town-wide competition of the scions of these houses to see who leads the town. I thought that was an interesting way to do it. It's like Goblet of Fire, but better.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's like Hunger games meets Goblet of Fire. It's so interesting the way this was set up. It was so fun and that she actually becomes this giant. She's soaring above everybody.

Daniella Drake:

Right? And the arbiter, she's this giantess and her voice is just like reverbing against all the mountains.

Evelyne Crowe:

Even if she's cheering or moaning or whatever, everybody can hear her.

Daniella Drake:

I thought that was [inaudible 00:14:50].

Evelyne Crowe:

I would absolutely die. I would die of embarrassment. I would just be like, "I'm sorry I can't say anything because everyone can hear me, so I will just roll under the bushes now."

Daniella Drake:

My entire goal in life is to be as invisible as possible.

Evelyne Crowe:

Seriously.

Daniella Drake:

So this is my worst nightmare.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God, I would never want to be perceived ever, ever.

Daniella Drake:

Don't even look at me.

Evelyne Crowe:

I write books so people can read the books and never see me. That is the point.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

So to be perceived in that manner would just kill me. I would just die. And so there she is as a giant. Huge. No, I'm sorry.

Daniella Drake:

I know, that's a hard pass for me. I would not be able to do that. No way. More power to her, but Jesus, no way. Let's talk about the houses a little bit because I did think this was also interesting, having these houses, these family lineages that kind of trace their lines back to famous wizards or magicians or whatever you want to call them in history. I thought that was so fun.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was fun and I love the fact that the Harlows traced them back to the stick in the mud, a librarian. It was the most boring person ever.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. I thought that was so funny. "Yes, our big claim to fame is this guy that took really good notes."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Who was the Secretary of Robert's Rules of Order."

Daniella Drake:

It was so-

Evelyne Crowe:

The fact is I am my best ... I love being the secretary, and when I'm on a board, I love being the secretary.

Daniella Drake:

This comes back to our not-being-seen thing though, is you can take the notes and you don't have to be involved.

Evelyne Crowe:

Ever, but you control everything, because when they come back and look at shit, you're in charge.

Daniella Drake:

And you would be like, "No. So-and-so said, 'Blah, blah, blah.'"

Evelyne Crowe:

"Guess who said that? I know."

Daniella Drake:

Also the Harlows have that amazing bookshop, which I wish was real because I would go there in a heartbeat.

Evelyne Crowe:

I would live there.

Daniella Drake:

Right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

She was talking about the feeling of being in there and I was like, "Yes, please. That sounds great. Inject it right into my veins. That is what I want."

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

I know.

Evelyne Crowe:

I would live there.

Daniella Drake:

I know. It sounds amazing. Amazing.

Evelyne Crowe:

Thank you. I would live there. Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

For sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Then we have ... So let's talk about the different [inaudible 00:17:40]. So we Azimovs who are Russian, but lived here for 300 years.

Daniella Drake:

Avramovs. Avramovs.

Evelyne Crowe:

Avramovs, sorry. But they've lived here for 300 years, but they're like the necromancy, Land of the Dead people and they're like goths essentially.

Daniella Drake:

They trace their lineage back to Baba Yaga, which I think is fucking scary.

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude, I identify them with more than a little.

Daniella Drake:

Seriously, I've read enough Russian mythology to think that Baba Yaga is terrifying.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh, I don't want to fuck with Baba Yaga, ever.

Daniella Drake:

Ever, ever.

Evelyne Crowe:

Ever. I have read novels with Baba Yaga and I don't want to fuck with her ever, ever.

Daniella Drake:

That's a hard pass.

Evelyne Crowe:

No, I just say no to fucking Baba Yaga.

Daniella Drake:

Always just say no to Baba Yaga.

Evelyne Crowe:

If you see a house with chicken legs walking towards you, run away ...

Daniella Drake:

Run away.

Evelyne Crowe:

... and never say hi.

Daniella Drake:

Do not look back, run.

Evelyne Crowe:

Just run. No. That is a horror. We don't [inaudible 00:18:44].

Daniella Drake:

I do love the Avramovs though. I do love them. I think that they are a little bit more gray in their morality, but I also love that about them.

Evelyne Crowe:

The thing is though is I think we both are a little more gray in our morality.

Daniella Drake:

Right, right.

Evelyne Crowe:

As much as we want to be not gray in our morality, we tend to be more gray in our morality just because we want to help people, and if we want to help people and it tends to be more gray in our morality, we'll be like, "Yeah, okay."

Daniella Drake:

So this is the thing, is we will bend the rules before we break the rules. Yes. And we're okay with that if it means that we're going to help someone.

Evelyne Crowe:

If we want to steal fucking baby formula from Target because a mom is in need, we will do that for them.

Daniella Drake:

100% without hesitation.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely. There you go.

Daniella Drake:

That's just facts, but also the Witchy Wood or the Witch Wood or whatever it is, the Avramovs ...

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude.

Daniella Drake:

... oh my God.

Evelyne Crowe:

I would live there. I'm not even joking.

Daniella Drake:

I think that that is your vibe.

Evelyne Crowe:

It is totally my vibe and I would live there.

Daniella Drake:

That is your vibe. I was thinking of you when I read it for the second time, actually, the first time too, I think I thought, "Wow, Evelyne would love this."

Evelyne Crowe:

Look, my favorite childhood movie was The Dark Crystal.

Daniella Drake:

100% can affirm.

Evelyne Crowe:

So I would live there. That dark creepy vibe was me.

Daniella Drake:

That was you. That was not me.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was not Daniella. That was me.

Daniella Drake:

I was going to say, I think you would feel so at home there and happy and content.

Evelyne Crowe:

Now, ghosts, not so much, but the dark woods, yeah.

Daniella Drake:

I think that makes sense. I felt more at home on the Thorn property where they have flowers and apple orchards and that kind of thing. I was like, "Oh, I'm sold."

Evelyne Crowe:

So as you see, Daniella and I are opposite and that is where we are comfortable.

Daniella Drake:

Indeed. I would visit you in the creepy wood because I love you, but I would be much more happy in my sunflower fields.

Evelyne Crowe:

She is cottagecore and I am goth and that is just what we are.

Daniella Drake:

And that's okay. It works for us.

Evelyne Crowe:

There you are. But see, the thing is though, is that Emmy and Talia found love with each other and it works for them.

Daniella Drake:

Let us talk about Talia for a moment, because even I was starting to question whether I was attracted to women or not because the way that she is described is hot as fuck.

Evelyne Crowe:

Let's talk about ... Here's the thing, I have come to understand in my 43 years is that sexuality is a scale and it is not something either you're straight or you're gay. It is a scale.

Daniella Drake:

100%, that is accurate.

Evelyne Crowe:

And the Kinsey scale is something that is fluid. It is not something that is set. Oh my God, Talia ...

Daniella Drake:

Hot as fuck.

Evelyne Crowe:

... Jesus Christ. Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

I don't know if you had this, but when I was reading it the second time, I literally pictured her as ... Who's the lead in House of the Dragon? Emmy D'Arcy.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

Emma D'Arcy. I am so sorry. I can't remember the exact name, but that is who I was picturing with dark hair because they have that similar dominant vibe, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes, mm-hmm.

Daniella Drake:

And that was who I was picturing and I was like, "Hot. Hot as fuck."

Evelyne Crowe:

Hot as fuck. Hot as fuck.

Daniella Drake:

And you really desperately want them to figure it out because they work so well together. They're very good foils for each other, I thought.

Evelyne Crowe:

And we have two characters who are both bi. They both had both genders as lovers in their past and they're both feeling each other out. And personally, I've only had my husband, I am sorry, [inaudible 00:23:11] in that area, but I've heard from bisexual people that women are scary and intimidating and you just don't want to be like, "This is scary. Men are easier. They're a little easier to feel out."

Daniella Drake:

You know when men are interested. Women is harder.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's harder. It's harder, which I can get behind. I can-

Daniella Drake:

I see that for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

100%.

Daniella Drake:

I get that.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God, the idea of having to try to tell if a woman is interested in me scares me the fuck out.

Daniella Drake:

That's fair.

Evelyne Crowe:

"Holy shit. No, thank you." Oh my God. It just terrifies me even thinking about it.

Daniella Drake:

That's fair.

Evelyne Crowe:

So they're feeling each other out and a lot of the first part of the book is them just like-

Daniella Drake:

Well, they also have so much trauma. Both of them have so much trauma from previous relationships that they've got their guard up, they've got their walls up. And it's hard for both of them to be putting themselves back out there. Emmy is still recovering from freaking Gareth Blackmoore like nine years ago.

Evelyne Crowe:

Gareth Blackmoore. I want to talk about that and I want to talk about something else in a minute, but let's talk about Gareth Blackmoore, who's an asshole, who's very rarely yet actually even a character in this book.

Daniella Drake:

That's true.

Evelyne Crowe:

He's not even developed as a character. He is literally just a stand-in.

Daniella Drake:

He's the villain of this book, and yet, you've ...

Evelyne Crowe:

Never see him.

Daniella Drake:

... never seen him. And I'll be honest, it pissed me off, and this is my own personal interpretation because of my own trauma, but having someone who is so barely there, having such an emotional impact on these women, was so upsetting to me because I have that in my own life.

Evelyne Crowe:

That's the thing, is both of us have that and both of us are like, "Well, fuck this shit."

Daniella Drake:

And for me too, I was like, "Yeah, get this guy. Fuck him. Who does he think he is?" And I had to wrestle with that a little bit because I was like, "Is it worth it for just this one guy?" but then you start to learn more about the Blackmoore family, you're like, "Oh, no, this is something that needs to happen. It needs to be corrected. Totally understand. Great." But in the beginning, I was like, "I need to check my own self because I am getting triggered."

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude, our trauma, I'm sure, in this book was like going, "Dude, let's fucking kill this guy."

Daniella Drake:

Pretty much.

Evelyne Crowe:

"They will help us immensely." I'm all for that.

Daniella Drake:

But he's not even ... Listen, I don't think that he's really a bad person. I think that he is self-centered. I think that he doesn't ... He's oblivious. He doesn't think of others because he's never been taught to think of others. He has no empathy. He has no compassion, but it's not because he's incapable. It's just because he's never had to.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I'm actually really curious if there's a book about him.

Daniella Drake:

Oh, that's a good question. Not the two that I read after this.

Evelyne Crowe:

I really wonder if there's a book where he is [inaudible 00:26:32] ...

Daniella Drake:

I bet he is.

Evelyne Crowe:

... or a point of view of him.

Daniella Drake:

I bet he does get a point of view later. I bet he does.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because he needs one if there isn't one.

Daniella Drake:

I agree. I absolutely agree.

Evelyne Crowe:

That would be interesting. I think that would be an interesting book.

Daniella Drake:

I want to see ... I do think that he is one of the characters in later books. I have not ... Again, I haven't finished the series, which I do want to because I do like Lana Harper. I think she's a good writer and I love Thistle Grove as a setting, but I do think that that's something that happens. I would be shocked if that's not something that happens down the road. But let's get back to the families. Let's see. So we talked about the Harlows a little bit, the Blackmoores a little bit, greedy fucks, Avramovs, a little bit necromancy and yet Baba Yaga and then the Thorns who are green magic, life magic kind of thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

For sure. For sure. So there is a competition. How many years apart is it? I'm not sure.

Daniella Drake:

I can't remember. Honestly ...

Evelyne Crowe:

I don't know if they said-

Daniella Drake:

... I was a little bit confused. I don't know if they did either.

Evelyne Crowe:

I will say this about this book. It was not super clear on the mythology. It was like, "This happens and it happens so often and then this is just necessary for the continuation of the city."

Daniella Drake:

It was a little bit wishy-washy, I felt like.

Evelyne Crowe:

The thing is, when you're reading it, you're like, "Okay."

Daniella Drake:

"Okay." You just go with it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Then you read it and you're just like, "Eh?"

Daniella Drake:

And then later you're like, "Wait, so how long has it been?" Because it skipped Emmy's dad, but it was Emmy's grandma before her. So maybe every 50 years is what I interpreted ...

Evelyne Crowe:

I don't know.

Daniella Drake:

... but I don't know.

Evelyne Crowe:

And at the time, I was like, "Whatever."

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

I was happy to suspend disbelief. I did not object to it.

Daniella Drake:

But later you start to think about it and go, "Wait, how long was it?"

Evelyne Crowe:

"Whatever." It was founded by four big witches because the lake has a font, a huge thing of magic.

Daniella Drake:

Apparently. It's just raw magic just coming right out of that lake because reasons.

Evelyne Crowe:

Reasons.

Daniella Drake:

Like, "There's no other city that has a lake that has magical properties except for this one town? I don't understand."

Evelyne Crowe:

Look, I love riding fantasy because you could just say magic.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. Exactly. You tell me that it's magic and I'll say, "Okay.

Evelyne Crowe:

"Okay. Look, I love it, man. You just say magic and people say, 'Okay.'"

Daniella Drake:

But you have to follow your own rules. That's the only rule, really

Evelyne Crowe:

It's truth. That's the truth. You just have to follow your own magic. That's it. You have follow your own rules and that's it. That's it. I'm like, "Okay, fine. That's how it's."

Daniella Drake:

"Pretty much."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Sure." So there's huge amounts of magic, huge, immense amounts of magic. And as soon as any of the witches who are in this town leave the town, they lose their magic.

Daniella Drake:

It slowly fades away until it's gone entirely.

Evelyne Crowe:

Which is bullshit, I think.

Daniella Drake:

I agree. That was one of the things that I was the most pissed off about, I think.

Evelyne Crowe:

Shouldn't they be witches even if they weren't around magic?

Daniella Drake:

Right. It never really gets explained and I feel like that was the thing that I disliked the most because it really just feels like a device to keep them in this place.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's a writing device and it seems a fairly obvious one to keep them in the universe.

Daniella Drake:

Which okay, just give me a reason why. Just tell me what the reason is and I'll go with it, but because it was never really-

Evelyne Crowe:

Maybe because they're born there, they're used to the magic, something.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

But as an author, I'm like, "Why?"

Daniella Drake:

I know. I needed a little explanation like not in a big deal.

Evelyne Crowe:

There were witches before the font.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

So obviously, there had to be able to be witches after it.

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

I was confused.

Daniella Drake:

That's fair. I had the same question.

Evelyne Crowe:

So that seemed a little bit of a plot hole, but whatever. Again, suspend this belief.

Daniella Drake:

You just go with it.

Evelyne Crowe:

You go with it.

Daniella Drake:

You're like, "Okay, fine."

Evelyne Crowe:

Because at the time, there was some really hot sapphic sex happening.

Daniella Drake:

Indeed. Even in the creepy woods, I was like, "No wonder"-

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude, every time she said, "She pulled me into her lap," I literally melted into a puddle.

Daniella Drake:

Short circuited every time.

Evelyne Crowe:

Every fucking time. Every fucking time. I don't know what it was about her saying, "She pulled me into her lap." My brain literally just went, "Oh, what?"

Daniella Drake:

I know. Same.

Evelyne Crowe:

Just could not compete after that.

Daniella Drake:

I didn't care what was going on after that. I was like, "Wait, what?"

Evelyne Crowe:

The sex scenes were not that detailed. They were not open door. They were closed door, but as soon as she said, "She pulled me into her fucking lap," I went, "[inaudible 00:31:57]."

Daniella Drake:

Pretty much.

Evelyne Crowe:

All I could imagine were legs spread around. That was it.

Daniella Drake:

That's all you needed, really.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I'm sorry, but the whole thing about the tattoos.

Daniella Drake:

Oh my God, that was one of the hottest scenes I have ever read and it wasn't even sexual, really.

Evelyne Crowe:

My God.

Daniella Drake:

Literally, she was explaining what her tattoos were and she would kiss it. Talia would kiss it after she explained. It's like a thank you and acknowledgement, but it was so hot. I was like ...

Evelyne Crowe:

My God.

Daniella Drake:

"Why is this so hot? Why is it hot in here?"

Evelyne Crowe:

And I was literally reading going, "I don't think I'm into women. Am I into women?"

Daniella Drake:

That's what I'm saying. It made me confused.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm really looking up the Kinsey scale. I'm not joking.

Daniella Drake:

I know. I get it. I'm with you. I am with you. This book made me question a lot of things.

Evelyne Crowe:

A lot of things were happening in my brain and I was like, "Well, maybe, maybe, maybe."

Daniella Drake:

"Maybe I am little bit."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Maybe I am. Let's just say I am for now into women."

Daniella Drake:

I'm willing to believe that I am a little bit just based off this book.

Evelyne Crowe:

For sure.

Daniella Drake:

I do also want to talk about the friendship between Emmy and Linden ...

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

... because I think that that was such an amazing depiction of two women in just a lifelong friendship.

Evelyne Crowe:

For sure. And it made me think of my childhood friendships and the longevity of them and how they last and all of that. It was amazing.

Daniella Drake:

I thought she did a really good job of making that feel really realistic, but also just so heartwarming. That whole conversation that Linden had with Emmy after Emmy left and she was like, "I felt like you wouldn't care if we stopped talking, if we lost contact," and Emmy was like, "Holy shit, I done fucked up."

Evelyne Crowe:

Look, you recommended this book and I didn't think I was going to need to choose. And then I suddenly-

Daniella Drake:

Oh, that was your first mistake.

Evelyne Crowe:

Suddenly, I needed tissues next to me because I was fucking crying and I was like, "No, no, I didn't think I was going to be crying with this book, but here I am crying."

Daniella Drake:

The cozies lie.

Evelyne Crowe:

Why are cozies like this? Why are cozies like, "We are going to reach into your soul and we're going to touch all of the things that make you cry?"

Daniella Drake:

Because when you come out the other side, you feel so good.

Evelyne Crowe:

No, lies.

Daniella Drake:

Well, I feel really good when I come out the other side.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm texting my childhood best friend, "I love you so much. I love you so much. I'm going to send you a box of my books. I love you so much." Jesus Christ.

Daniella Drake:

It was cathartic though, the way that it happened and even Emmy on the other side is like, "I felt so much better. The air was so much clearer between us. We were in a much better place."

Evelyne Crowe:

It was a discussion that needed to happen.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely, 100%. And it was so nice to see it in a healthy way. Neither one of them was attacking them personally or in a over-the-top way. It was just like, "This is how it made me feel when you left and I don't know that that was your intention, but this was the consequence."

Evelyne Crowe:

A discussion that didn't involve women hating women or being jealous or going after somebody in a patriarchal society.

Daniella Drake:

There was no competition. They weren't competing with each other. They weren't each other off for no fucking reason. It was just them saying, "This is how I felt," and then the other one saying, "Oh my God, that was not my intention. I am so sorry and I love you."

Evelyne Crowe:

That's it.

Daniella Drake:

It was a healthy relationship ...

Evelyne Crowe:

That's it.

Daniella Drake:

... between two platonic and it was so nice to see it because I feel like so often you don't see that, which I don't understand because so many women have these relationships.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's so upsetting because in media, all you see ... Even in Bridgerton, even in Bridgeton, you see women vying for ... There's a competition and it's like, "It's not what it is."

Daniella Drake:

It is my least favorite thing to watch, because in real life, I don't experience that at all, at all, at all. It's only women trying to help other women. And so to see it depicted in media as, "We're always fighting with each other and vying with each other," and it doesn't feel real, it feels fake.

Evelyne Crowe:

And even at the end, even at the end when Harlow is given the wreath, it's like, "Look, you won this. You won it. You deserve this. Here it is."

Daniella Drake:

I loved that moment so much because even Talia was like, "Listen, the Avramovs should not have this. Let's be real. I would not be a good leader. You're going to be an amazing leader and you've earned this. You deserve to have this." And it was such a touching moment. It was so nice to see that.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's women helping women and it needs to be in more books and it needs to be in more media and it needs to be everywhere.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely, 100% agree.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because I swear ... Look, Hollywood has a problem.

Daniella Drake:

Hollywood has many problems.

Evelyne Crowe:

Hollywood has a problem with men writing women and it is that women are in a competition with each other and we're not.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

We're really not. Women help women. We really do.

Daniella Drake:

That's exactly what ... It's hardwired into us because the struggle is already so hard.

Evelyne Crowe:

It really is and this book is all women helping women and it's women helping women, "Okay, this man hurt us. Okay, it's not cool that you got with my ex-boyfriend, but at the same time, he's an asshole, so I'm still going to help you."

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely. I love that there wasn't even a moment where Emmy was like, "What the fuck were you doing with my ex-boyfriend?" She was like, "Wow, I didn't expect that, but okay."

Evelyne Crowe:

But she was like, "I moved away and I wasn't even here and you didn't think I was going to come back. I understand why."

Daniella Drake:

Also, it's been almost nine years.

Evelyne Crowe:

Nine years.

Daniella Drake:

Whatever.

Evelyne Crowe:

Decade.

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. And she's just like, "How dare he hurt you the way that he hurt me." That is the ...

Evelyne Crowe:

100%.

Daniella Drake:

... end thought. She goes from, "Wow, I didn't expect that to, 'How dare he? How dare he treat you that way?'"

Evelyne Crowe:

"He hurt my best friend. Okay, we're going to fucking him up."

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

Women helping women.

Daniella Drake:

And that's what I'm here for.

Evelyne Crowe:

So Hollywood has a problem. Men always think that women are in competition. We are not.

Daniella Drake:

That's the patriarchy.

Evelyne Crowe:

Women help women. And if there's one thing I do is write that women help women.

Daniella Drake:

That's what we love to read. We need more books where women are lifting other women up because that's realistic.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's realistic.

Daniella Drake:

I don't know why it's so difficult for men to believe, but women are supporting women all the time constantly. That is what we do. So it was really nice to see that in this book. That was an aspect of the book that I really enjoyed.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was really nice. And I really want to go to this Irish barns they have here.

Daniella Drake:

That does sound really nice. Morty?

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

Who's a norm, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Who's really cool though.

Daniella Drake:

But he seems so practical and pretty observant.

Evelyne Crowe:

I think he knows more than he lets on and I bet he appears in other books.

Daniella Drake:

I can almost guarantee it. I can almost guarantee.

Evelyne Crowe:

Just a theory.

Daniella Drake:

I can almost guarantee it. I did love all of the witchy-themed shops and restaurants and coffee shops and all the stuff in this little town. I thought that was so cute. I was like, I would visit this town in a heartbeat.

Evelyne Crowe:

I would live in this town. What are you talking about?

Daniella Drake:

Right?

Evelyne Crowe:

I would. Oh my God, I would die if I were adopted by the Avramovs.

Daniella Drake:

You seeing my outfit right now? It sounded so perfect. I was like, "This sounds like the place that we need to relocate to."

Evelyne Crowe:

I would ... "Do you mean I could just party in the dark woods in the middle of the night? Okay, sure."

Daniella Drake:

Exactly. But you could go to the bar and get whatever witchy-themed cocktail and I was like, "That sounds great."

Evelyne Crowe:

Or, "A medieval castle that's just there? Sure."

Daniella Drake:

Camelot literally called Camelot.

Evelyne Crowe:

"And all of the family names are kids after Arthurian legends, hello?"

Daniella Drake:

Oh my God. I was just like, "This is a nerd's paradise and that sounds perfect for me."

Evelyne Crowe:

"Excuse me, I only studied like Arthurian legends in college. I'm nerding the fuck out."

Daniella Drake:

I loved it. I thought it was so fun. The Blackmoores are supposed to be descended from Morgan le Fey, so-

Evelyne Crowe:

I was freaking the fuck out, Daniella.

Daniella Drake:

I get it.

Evelyne Crowe:

I was really pissed that they were the bad guys. I'm not lying.

Daniella Drake:

I know. I did think about that when I recommended it because I knew it was going to upset you.

Evelyne Crowe:

But at the same time, I'm like, "Okay. Yeah. Well, you know?"

Daniella Drake:

It makes sense, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

"Colonialism, that makes sense, whatever, whatever the fuck. It's like, you know?"

Daniella Drake:

Also, they're descended from Morgan le Fey, who-

Evelyne Crowe:

Who is an asshole.

Daniella Drake:

I know.

Evelyne Crowe:

Who's an asshole, I get it, I understand, I do intellectually. At the same time, I'm like, "Oh my God, her name is [inaudible 00:42:47]."

Daniella Drake:

I know. I know. So true.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh, man.

Daniella Drake:

I did really enjoy this book. I thought it was just a really fun fall read.

Evelyne Crowe:

It really was. It was fun. It was this really cozy ... It was a cozy, fun read.

Daniella Drake:

It really was. And the romance was nice. It wasn't necessarily the main part, but it was a really nice part of it.

Evelyne Crowe:

I actually want to talk about the fact that it was ... Is it sold as a romance or is it sold as an urban fantasy?

Daniella Drake:

I've seen it mostly as an urban fantasy, but I don't know actually because I found it on TikTok. Oh, no, I found it on the Reddit cozy fantasy subreddit and they were not selling it as a fantasy. They were selling it as a cozy.

Evelyne Crowe:

A cozy fantasy or cozy-

Daniella Drake:

Cozy fantasy, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So not a romance.

Daniella Drake:

No, not a romance. No.

Evelyne Crowe:

It feels like a romance.

Daniella Drake:

It does feel like a romance. And they do get the HEA, which you would expect in a romance.

Evelyne Crowe:

I have the hiccups because I'm fucking drunk.

Daniella Drake:

Aha.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm sorry.

Daniella Drake:

You don't need to apologize for that. That's amazing.

Evelyne Crowe:

Sorry. Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

But I haven't seen it really marketed as a romance per se, more as a fall witchy, cozy read is what I have seen it marketed as.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because it feels like an urban fantasy, especially because it's closed door, but there is an HEA because there is definitely a romance aspect to it.

Daniella Drake:

But the romance is not the main plot, I would say. I don't know. It's a big part of the book, but I wouldn't say it's the main plot. And I will say, I did like Emmy's character growth because I was a little frustrated with her up until halfway like three-quarters through the book.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God, I wanted to throttle her. She was-

Daniella Drake:

And part of it is because we're older and we have a little bit more life experience and so she's talking about these reasons that she had to leave the town. And I'm like, "You're not leaving because you want to be better or change yourself. You're running away. You're not wanting to deal with your problems, so you're fleeing. That's not healthy. It's just a coping mechanism basically." And so when Talia actually calls her on it, and in that moment, obviously, Talia is also very emotional. And so it's easy to be like, "Oh, people say things when they're mad, whatever," but in this case, she is 100% correct when she says, "You are just the queen of running away and that's how you handle everything."

And Emmy doesn't want to hear it, right? But it's what she needs to hear because nobody has ever actually said, "You haven't dealt with this stuff. You just left and that's really a problem and maybe that's something you should think about," and so she's actually forced to confront it, which she hasn't really had do in nine years. So do we think that this is a romance or just an urban fantasy?

Evelyne Crowe:

I don't know. It felt like both.

Daniella Drake:

I agree.

Evelyne Crowe:

It really felt like both.

Daniella Drake:

It really did. I feel like she was trying to get best of both worlds, which is really hard for me to say apparently. Well, alcohol helps.

Evelyne Crowe:

I think it was best of both worlds. It was a closed-door romance, which it's not something I usually read, so ...

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

... that was a new thing for me. So it felt more like an urban fantasy for me because I'm not used to reading a closed-door romance, but because of all of the lore and the world building and all of that aspect of it, it felt more like an urban fantasy to me, but it had the HEA of a romance.

Daniella Drake:

I feel like it was more like an urban fantasy with romance for me. I feel like the romance was not necessarily the main part, but it was a big part.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's like a romantic urban fantasy.

Daniella Drake:

Let's go with that. Thank you for joining us and I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I'm Evelyne Crowe.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well, friends.