One Group's Struggle with the Stigma of Therapy

When it comes to mental health, there are so many hurdles that people have to overcome just to step foot in a therapist's office or to join that telehealth meeting. These hurdles can be particularly challenging for certain people groups.

In this episode, we're speaking with Teresa Williams, Clinical Director at Family & Children's Services, and Carlos Meeks, Clinical Supervisor at Family & Children's Services, about the stigma surrounding seeking therapy, particularly among African American males.

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Transcript

Theresa: Once we can really determine and define stigma and really break down that barrier, I believe that that will be a continuous issue in terms of seeking mental health, and especially among those in the African American community. 

Carlos: I think, with anything, words give us a meaning behind it, and stigma is one of those words that gets tossed out a lot.

 But if you've never dealt with that before, or what that means, then it kind of means nothing. And so I started to understand that it's going to encourage change within you. And if you don't get to that goal, the change you have made in getting to it, or fighting for it, will ultimately become that goal.

 Set the goal on the moon, and if we hit a star on the way, we have achieved something, and we have changed something. 

Chris: 

When it comes to mental health, there are so many hurdles that people have to overcome just to step foot in a therapist's office or to join that telehealth [00:01:00] meeting. Today we're going to talk about the stigma, especially among African American males, surrounding seeking therapy, and we'll discuss issues of trust and hopelessness that can sometimes prevent them from seeking the help they need. This and more on OK State of Mind, a podcast from Family and Children's Services.

 Today we're with Teresa Williams and Carlos Meeks. 

And Teresa and Carlos, before we get started here, can you just tell us a little bit more about yourselves, what you do here at Family and Children's Services? 

Teresa: Yes. I'm Teresa Williams. I'm the clinical director here at Family and Children's Services. , I am looking forward to being the clinical director of the location, a new location that we'll be opening up.

 Hopefully in the fall, 2 4 0 East Apache, I have been here, it's been over a year now since I've returned, about 10 years removed. And so, it's just been a real blessing to return to the work that I love to do. Yeah. 

Carlos: And, I'm Carlos Meeks and I started off here in our program at that time was called [00:02:00] CCBHC, , on the grant side.

Uh, I've been here five years, started as a case manager for vets on a grant, vet specific specialist was my first job here and, , did that for a little while. Began school as a therapist at SNU, graduated, became a therapist with the bridge program and, uh, recently moved up to clinical supervisor position. I'm the Teresa, that's how we came to know each other here, she trained me here. And so we've been in that role for about three or four months now.

Chris: All Right. 

Teresa: Yes. 

Chris: So it's all about mental health and that's really what we're here to talk about today. And specifically, we want to talk about the stigma that surrounds mental health and seeking therapy, particularly among African American males. So can we just start right in and talk about why there's so much stigma around it?

Teresa: Yes. Well, first of all, when we think of stigma, what comes to mind, you know, stigma is, it's really like this set of, beliefs that there's some type of issue [00:03:00] and, negative beliefs around why does one need help. And so, once we can like really determine and define stigma and really break down that barrier, , I believe that that will be a continuous, issue in terms of seeking mental health and especially among those in the African American community.

Mm hmm. 

Carlos: I think, with anything, words give us meaning behind it. And stigma is one of those words that gets tossed out a lot. but if you never dealt with that before or what that means, then it kind of means nothing. And so before I came here, I actually did a lot of investigation into it. I talked to a lot of my friends, uh, my male friends.

And I'm like, you know, when's the first time you heard of a therapist? Like, ever. And I'm like, never. Oh my gosh. So, um. I was like, you know, there's a lot of people out there that, that are like me, that look like me, that need help, uh, need some guidance, need someone to talk to, but it's not provided, and so I wanted to give back, and that's the reason that I came here, and then when I [00:04:00] came here, I found out that, uh, Well, it's hard to get people help.

They don't understand the help that's out there for them, and they've never used the services before as well. And so, stigma is one of those words that I'm like, okay, let's get more familiar with this, and let's see what the background to this is, and how can we move forward. And so I've made a lot of effort individually in with family and children to help promote like mental health.

And that is a platform that I stand on and talk about on all of my social media as well. to bring down those gates and just say, let's have an open conversation and what that feels like. I think we have to start there with just the conversation, you know. Yes. 

Chris: I'll bet family involvement would be, you know, something particularly important in this situation. How can families help out with this? 

Teresa: Family is so important, especially among the African American community. Typically, that is how one seeks answers. How we receive help because it's such a stigma to ask for help and go outside of the family. And [00:05:00] so, when you involve family into the mental health, needs, it's, it's huge.

I encourage one to become an advocate for the individual that's seeking help. Um, an advocate can be, um, one that is providing support while in individual therapy or group therapy or whatever the service may be. And so, you know, Not just relying on family but involving family into mental health services.

It's very important. 

Carlos: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think traditionally When it comes to culture like family is therapy. Well, I shouldn't just say family. Community is therapy but as you can see areas like North Tulsa and where I'm originally from The community is breaking down, right, and a lot of, uh, resources are being pulled from those areas.

So thank God for places like Family and Children that have helped bring any of those resources back. Um, but also, I think from what I've learned in school, our models and what we see is ultimately what we do. And so in a lot of families, we don't have therapy. [00:06:00] We push the church. We, we push praying, which is not a problem.

But I learned that these are tools that we can use in our every day that move us from these stuck places or these places of anxiety, so we can find homostasis or balance. And so I think that is where family starts. We have to start having families come in and start to heal generational and traumatic backgrounds and groups.

And, if we can begin to embrace that, then the individual will follow the model. 

Mm hmm. 

Carlos: Yeah. So I like the aspect of family and children being able to. Look at groups or people as a whole and as a system, it's important for us. 

Teresa: And I'd like to add to that, I know that Carlos mentioned the church. You know, the church is very important as a foundation, especially in the African American community.

And so we're not saying to shy away from church. We're saying in addition to church, there is the professional help through agencies such as Family and Children's Services. So it's a village, right? It takes a collective [00:07:00] to meet the needs of the individuals that seek and help. 

Chris: Is there anything that churches can do or anything that churches should know to kind of, prompt, folks to consider therapy? 

Teresa: Yes, and actually, I am so excited because I see the collaboration between churches and agencies such as Family and Children's Services. And so, I know that the word is being spoken in the church to, um, really encourage individuals to seek mental health professionals.

But also understanding the blend of spirituality and mental health in the African American community is so prevalent and so important. So it's not one against the other, it is a collaboration of both. . 

Chris: Yeah Carlos, I heard an interview that you were in recently and you were talking specifically about the church and a problem that arises in encouraging, young African American males to seek therapy. Can you speak on that a little bit? 

Carlos: I think for me, and just a personal [00:08:00] experience for me, um, the first time that I ran into a group of people was like little league football coaches and men and struggling with things and having someone to come and like voice that to. Mm hmm. Uh, was the first, like, real stuff of, like, untraditional therapy.

I think the next stage for us is introducing traditional therapy, because being trained is very different from having a barbershop conversation, but I think, like, um, like that is the important stuff for church. I believe, like, talking to people and seeing how, like, we are moving forward in mental health.

I believe, like I said, COVID had a, a big stand on the way that we think about the world and we think about mental health. Because a lot of people, that was just a conversation that heard somebody, knew somebody, never really impacted me, but during that situation , it was like right in front of us. Um, a lot of families did not make it through COVID and that was like heartbreaking for me.

So, yeah. [00:09:00] Uh, to see that in my neighborhood as well. And so I'm like, yeah, we have to start pushing more of the therapy, more of the tools. And so I think church can help a lot. It's helping getting the message when we're talking about stigma or breaking down walls. , an introduction from a person that is familiar with us in our community will go a long way.

And so I think we, we are working and should be working towards better communications with, community centers. And in the churches, in the areas to get in and show like, we're just normal people, we're just here. Yeah. Um, it can be very scary to open up to people that you don't know. Mm hmm. And so, uh, church is a good stuff for that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a 

Chris: familiar place, a group of people that, you know, That, individuals love and are And trust. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 

Carlos: Trust. That's, that is a big word. Yes. Yes. 

Chris: Well, let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, I, I, assume that trust is probably a pretty big hurdle when it comes to seeking therapy.

How is trust involved in this [00:10:00] whole thing? 

Teresa: Well, you think of consistency. In terms of, um, and you mentioned this Carlos, like, how does one just open up and you don't know me. Right. From another person, right? Yeah. And so to have that consistent person who, shows up for you, like, that's important. 

Mm hmm.

Teresa: And to stand on what, you will do for that individual as a professional, in that person's life. It's like, those are the things that's most important. And to know that, okay. I, too, can share in your story, right? And so, being culturally competent as a provider is also very, important in terms of, like, the trust building relationship.

Yeah. 

Chris: Yeah. We'll talk a little bit about that. Culturally competent. Can you expound on that a little bit? 

Teresa: Yes, it's not so much, a race factor. It truly is the trainings that one seek in their professional career to get a better understanding of that individual and meeting that [00:11:00] individual where that person is in that moment.

It is an upbringing, it's a background, it's all those things. And so, when you think of cultural 

Carlos: competency, 

Teresa: you think of specific trainings and truly understanding and at least have a sense of trying to or attempting to understand where that one individual is coming from. Yeah, 

Carlos: I think it's twofold if I could say like, I think that we have to understand traditionally what happens in communities that are low income driven.

A lot of times people come in and they promise these things and these hopes of things and And then the inconsistency happens, and then the trust backs away. And so from my experience working here, I think we have to take ourself out of the therapeutic relationship or the helper role, because what is progress for us could be very different from the progress for my community.

And so I used to tell clinicians all the time, it might start off with a 10 minute appointment, right? 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, that might be too much. But if [00:12:00] they are coming, and you can get them to come back, then we're building consistency. And before 

trust, we have to build consistency.

Right? and so that 10 minutes goes to 15 to 30, to 45, to all right, we're hit an hour. I gotta get you scheduled next week. 

Chris: And how do they feel whenever they're like, Wow, an hour has passed? 

Carlos: Yeah, my life. Yeah. What do you mean? I just found someone. And I know that feeling, coming here, finding someone that hears me and sees me for the first time.

Like, that was one of the great things I always talk about FCS. coming from a military culture and then coming from a contractor culture and then coming here, I'm like, looking under the desk, it opened up in doors. I'm like, I'm pretty sure there's some real people here somewhere. Yeah. You know, take the mask off.

Where are they? Yeah. And so I often tell like new clinicians that come in, like you're going to have that feeling where it doesn't feel real for a long time. embrace the feeling and don't fight against it and then you can move past that part and become a part of that culture And that is what we [00:13:00] have to offer to the community as well to become part of the culture in the community as well And so i've been very excited about the things fcs has been doing here lately with like juneteenth and setting up the booths and all that good stuff That's great stuff to get us out there and in front of people to see that we are who the community reflects and that's important.

Teresa: That is so important, Carlos. I'm glad you mentioned that because that is about being present in the community. Like we care, we want to engage you in services and you may not even know about the services we provide. We have over 70 programs, right?

And so that is such an important piece is being present in a the community. I personally have. enjoyed attending the Juneteenth events and the Legacy Fest and look forward to other events. So Family and Children's does a great job of presenting in the community and making sure that we are present.

Yeah. 

Rachel: When you talked kind of about the, the clinical side of therapy and meeting people where they are and you know, it could be a 10 minute appointment, it could be an hour, but what are the first steps [00:14:00] that. on the opposite side that someone should take when they're deciding that they want therapy, that they want help.

Carlos: So, so this is something that I talk to cause I understand that there are not a lot of me's when I see people and they're like, Oh, this either going to be really bad. It's going to be really great. And I'm like, Hey, if you keep coming and sitting across from me, it's going to be great. We're going to get some things done.

Um, but I think confidence, I always remember like, when I was a case manager, even before I got into the therapy world, trying to get people to engage was, it seemed like such a challenge, like, I'm here, just, hey, use me. And I used to tell, you know, I used to tell my clients, hey, I'm like a, you know, I'm like a doorstopper.

Hey, I can be really effective if you use me, but if you leave me in the corner, I'm just going to collect dust and keep calling. And so I remember this client, I used to have my door open and I used to sit, get on the elevator. And I used to wave at her. I'm like, Hey, you gonna come and talk to me? Yeah, next time.

I look up the chart and I see when the next time her appointment would come and I would have the [00:15:00] door open. Hey, I'm still here. How about you just come in and sit with me for a second? And it started with something as small as that. Coming in, having the door open, keeping the door open, having a seat. Hey, I'm Carlos.

I'm going to be here, as much as you want me to be here. I'm probably going to over call you sometimes. But I'm just trying to make sure you're okay, right? I think what I learned in school is, is that people are the essential piece to healing. And so the people connection before all the tools, before all the training, I have to feel comfortable.

Mm hmm. And I think a lot of times clinicians , get in their head and they're really uncomfortable and that kind of bleeds out into the appointment. , but understand, like, they are nervous. I am nervous. You are a human. I am a human. I hope so. That's a great point. 

Chris: You're talking about the trust and what you're describing right now just totally builds up that, that trust when you're just like, Hey, we're both people here. I'm, I'm a human. You're a human. Let's just talk. 

Carlos: Yes. And, [00:16:00] and I tell them that as well. You know, being a CM versus being a therapy is very, two different positions. And so, uh, when I got into the therapy realm, like, Hey, listen, sometimes we're going to have uncomfortable conversations.

That is therapy, right? I can sit and we can talk about. Watching football all day, but unfortunately, we got to get some work done. Yeah, right. And so, if you feel like I'm pressing too fast, let me know. But in order to get to that conversation, I have to have a trust, I have to have built that rapport with them. In the beginning as a young therapist, I'm like, Hey, they went away and they never came back. What's going on? And so I had to pull back a little bit, but I understood that that's the process. Everyone is different. 

Teresa: And if I could add to what Carlos mentioned, you mentioned CM, case manager, right?

And so. Part of that therapeutic relationship, you may have one and present like, Hey, my utilities are about to be cut off. I don't have appropriate shelter. And so therapy, that's pretty much out the [00:17:00] window at that point. Like, you have to meet those needs. And so as a case manager, that's, very important to identify what those needs are and how we're going to help that individual get the needs that they need, the housing or the utilities, um, and then the therapeutic relationship can begin. That is all part of it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Carlos: Um, I, I love CMs and I love the PRSSs and I try my best to emphasize like my care because I've been in that position, I've been in that role before to help them understand like, I know everybody looks at the therapist as like, you know, Mount Rushmore at the top.

I cannot be effective if I'm scared. If I feel unsafe, if I'm in danger, if my belly is hungry, if my kids are crying, right? I'm not gonna come in and talk to you cause you're not listening to me. This is what's important. and until we get those things kind of taken care of, we can't start building a therapy relationship.

Right? And so once they come into therapy, I can say, I know that's hard, your life is hard right now. But if we build some consistency, if [00:18:00] you keep coming, if you keep talking to them, Don't close the book on us. We can work through these things and eventually we'll start doing the working side as well. And you'll have the tools to go out and keep going and push.

I think one of my saddest, interventions with a client was like, 25 year old female was like, so what does tomorrow look like? What, what are your goals? And she was like, 

what? 

I don't have any goals. I'm like, what do you mean you don't have any goals? even a kid, if I asked him, Hey, what do you want to be?

They'll say a Power Ranger, you know, Superman, whatever. But for her, she had no tomorrow. And I'm like, this is a drawback. This is me restarting and really looking at where do we start? Because we have to start with the safety. And that's what the C. M. and the P. R. S. are doing. And then they can bridge up to therapy and get ready to move on to that next level.

So. 

Chris: Hmm. Well, you two have years of experience between the two of you, surely you've come across some [00:19:00] misconceptions about therapy. Any in particular that you feel are common or particularly, uh, Frustrating. Harmful. Yeah. Frustrating. Big hurdles. 

Teresa: Yes, when I think of misconception when it comes to therapy, it's like, what is this place?

Why do I have to go to a place? I'm not crazy, or I don't need help with, you know, depression. What is depression? I think it's, it's all those things, and it goes back to the stigma and the label of what those things may look like to one. And to know that therapy is a process. Therapy is not an instant gratification overnight.

Hey, you're healed. Congratulations. It is a true process. And Carlos mentioned, like, putting in the work. It is real work. We're starting to, dive into some of those traumas, and experiences, and depression, anxiety, mood disorders. It is work. We have curriculum, evidence based curriculum that we actually use in therapy sessions.

And so , I think that's important for one to know what [00:20:00] therapy truly looks like. It's the process. And it may be a year, it may be 18 months, it may be more than that, but just be committed to the process. And I think that's a huge misconception. 

Carlos: I hear this a lot, talking, what is talking going to do?

And I'm like, have you tried talking? No, I haven't tried talking, exactly. So let's try it and see what happens. Give me a chance to talk effectively and see what happens, what kind of narrative that we pull up. And that's what I told people in the beginning of our first interview.

I'm not going to fix anything for you. If you're looking for that, wrong place, right? What I'm going to do is I'm going to offer you a perspective, an honest perspective of what you're telling me from a different opinion. And I will always be honest with you, no matter how much it hurt.

It doesn't hurt, but I have to always be honest with you, because that is how we got here. And if you want to do therapy, you have to be honest with yourself. 

Yeah. 

And so, when you walk in this [00:21:00] door, it is one of my only rules. Hey, you can leave if it gets too heavy, but you have to be honest, and we have to start there with communication.

And so, uh, I often tell people, like, I didn't go to school to, to give medicine. I believe in it. And some people do need it. But I went to school to learn this tool, and this is the tool that I'm presenting to you. Okay? And so, I know it's going to be presented a little bit different. It's going to feel a little bit different.

We're going to have some fun. We're going to laugh. We're And I got a Kleenex box right there for you. You need that support as well. 

Chris: Yeah. You were talking about goals earlier. Is that a part of your processes? , and about when does that come in and is it tough and how do people feel about goal setting?

Tell us a little bit more about that.

Carlos: I think for me, we always got to have a clear expectation. So day one, What does this look like? How do, how do we even get through the first appointment? Carlos, I've never been here before. Never bared my soul to anybody. I've never asked for help before. I'm like, hey, you're not asking.

We're giving it to you now. We have [00:22:00] all these things. We already have them. We don't have to go create them. They're here for you. And so we, we have to have that clear expectation in the beginning. And, and from my experience, I always tell them as well, you know, once upon a time, little bitty Carlos, I set a goal for myself.

And, uh, I didn't really understand goal setting at that time. And I set a goal that was achievable. And I achieved it very quickly. And I was like, oh, man. . Didn't get me where I was looking for. And so I started to understand that goal setting is about pushing it so far out, so far outside of your imagination, that it's going to encourage change within you.

And if you don't get to that goal, the change you have made in getting to it or fighting for it will ultimately become that goal. And so I tell people, it doesn't matter. Set the goal on the moon and if we hit a star on the way, we have achieved something and we have changed something. 

Teresa: Yes. Yes. In addition to that, Carlos, I think of goal setting being specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and you [00:23:00] have to have a time frame, right?

I've been trying to lose weight for 20, 000 years and I dip and that's another piece. It could be a little bit of a roller coaster. You may achieve that goal for the first six months and maybe something happened in your life. That's a great point. Yes. And it's okay. That's life. Yeah, that's life. That's life.

Right? So, it's also, it's just making sure that those goals are attainable and that you can achieve. And it's okay if you achieve and then you take some steps back, take a few steps forward, stay on the path, a process of recovery and therapy. Yeah. 

Carlos: Yeah, I think something that school taught me, uh, grad school taught me, two and a half years accelerated, what does that feel like?

That's a goal, right? And, and Most people have never set a goal with that type of distance and that type of time to be consistent with that. And so that's what I bring to them and I tell them, I know in the beginning goals can be very hard to do, but it's about being consistent. It's about showing up every day.

It's about putting the work [00:24:00] in and eventually you will achieve the goal. And once you achieve a goal that big and it's set out that far in front, now you can conquer the world because you understand that it is a process. It is not an immediate gratification. 

Chris: You were saying something about, I need you to see me or I need you to hear me and I think it would take maybe the right person and what happens if they don't hit the right person the first time and how does one find the right person?

Carlos: Yeah, for me this was a struggle in the beginning. I had a great supervisor, licensure supervisor that always encouraged me just, just be you. Um, and they'll see who you are through that. And I was like, man, it is, it is hard to have someone sit in front of me. especially like we think that most of our program is like female driven and most of our clients are female driven, which we have found out in our program that we have had a lot more males coming into engagement mental health than, than the female population, which is a big plus for me hearing that.

 But in the beginning, you know, he's a [00:25:00] guy. He's a guy. Oh, is there a concern about that? When they walk in? What does that mean? And I was like, well, have you ever, have you ever heard a guy's perspective to this? Hmm, that could be interesting. 

I don't know. 

 And so just kind of in the beginning, breaking down those laws.

Well, I would say for any like up and coming clinicians or clinicians that feel like they're struggling with that, be yourself. You can only be that, right? Okay. And so, if a person sits in front of me and they look very different from me, and I can feel it, and as therapists, we can feel the room as well, it's okay to bring that up in the room.

I think that's appropriate. And I always tell the clients as well, give me a chance, and if it doesn't work out, I will do my darnedest to help you get to someone that I think will be able to help you. And I think that is the goal for everybody. That is the message I put out for everybody. Hey, you might taste a skittle and not like that flavor.

Don't stop right there. Taste another one and see how that feels. Because eventually you're gonna find someone that you feel comfortable with that feels [00:26:00] very open and very welcoming. And then you'll start talking and not knowing you're talking. But you're right. if the relationship feels forced, then bring that up.

Yeah. And that's the only way we can move past that. So I think that's very important when it comes to like culture as well because a lot of times people are looking for someone that looks like them. It is very hard to find everybody someone that looks like them, but understand that everybody is trained.

I think that's what Teresa said earlier. We have to have the culture competency. 

Teresa: And if I may add also, you may feel uncomfortable at first. Sometimes, you're working on some really tough subjects, really hard stuff. And so, it may feel like, Oh, I need to switch and go to another therapist, when in fact, you're about to hit that milestone, that break that you need in therapy.

So, give it a chance. Also, give the individual a chance before you say, Oh, I think I want to go to Carlos instead of Teresa for therapy. Right? . 

Rachel: So, if we have a listener that's interested in getting connected to services, what types of treatments, [00:27:00] programs do we have for our listeners and can you all kind of give us a little bit of information if they wanted to get connected?

Carlos: Yeah. So, so I want to start off with here. What is FCS and what can it do for me? And it's like this people tend to hold on things that they can stand on, foundations that feel solid. What I'm doing and what we're doing is asking you to believe in something that you have never believed in before.

And I always challenge that thought and say, well, at some point somebody told you, you believe oxygen and you can't taste it, touch it, see it, feel it, but you believe you breathe it and it keeps us alive. And so you have to have that same determination, same belief system. that this system will work for you.

And so I always tell them, working on that sixth floor, it's like, hey, if I walked out there, on air, and I reached my hand out, and I said, hey, Teresa, you saw me do it. You can do it too. Would you walk out there too? 

Teresa: No. 

Carlos: 99. 8 percent is a [00:28:00] no. And I'm like, yeah, that is what believing in mental health is.

That is what working in behavioral health is. It's taking the feet off the firm and walking a path that you haven't walked before. And fortunately for us, FCS has 70 plus programs. You can take any day, Monday through Friday, to walk into Graves. And I'm so thankful for hearing this.

 Being at the Day Center. We had a client there the other day that just saw FCS Booth and was like, Hey, I'm in trouble. I need some help. Give me some help. and she called me and we got that client or that person some help. And so I'm glad that we are stretching our wings out as far as we can, but school base is wonderful.

I'm so excited to see that's growing. I specialize in early childhood and so I know how important that is, to get that education started with emotional regulation. And being able to understand myself and hear myself as well, and so, I am happy. 

Teresa: Yes, Family and Children's, like Carlos mentioned, over 70 plus [00:29:00] programs.

Amazing. We are a CCBHC agency. And so, when you think of the individual, we think holistically. Not just one element of the person. And we're located. Throughout Tulsa and surrounding areas. And what I love about Family of Children is when we see the need, we meet the need. We open a location and we say, Oh, North Tulsa has an underserved population.

Let's open up an agency in that area. Right? And so I just encourage one to call 918 587 9471. Simple as that. 

Chris: Well, it's a serious topic. What gives you guys hope each day when you come into work, or each week, or each month, or, you know, as you're changing locations altogether, what, what gives you hope?

Teresa: This work is not work at all. Hmm. It is a gift. It is a gift and I've been privileged to work with individuals over the years and I can see that Transformation in the individual you may have one that come in and you think oh, they're [00:30:00] resistant Which I don't like that word resistant to change resistant to therapy when in fact they're dealing with some heavy heavy stuff 

Chris: Yeah 

Teresa: heavy and I'm like if I had to I can only imagine, right? 

And so then, over a course of months or maybe years, like I mentioned earlier, whatever that may look like for the individual, you can start to begin to see the change in that person. And that is the gift. It's just like when you think of a butterfly. The same analogy. And so, that gives me hope. 

Chris: Yeah. That's awesome.

Carlos: Yeah, I've been blessed to work on the sixth floor at the gravesite, which has an impeccable view. Yes. and so I get a lot of clients that come up and I've been asked that question so many times, why do you do this? This is hard work. Like people yell at you, they scream at you, they cry.

And I'm like, you know, this is the most humbling work I've ever done in my life. And I point them out to the window and I say, like, what do you see? An amazing view. And I was like, you know what? I saw an amazing view. Um, before I [00:31:00] became a therapist, before I became a case manager, before I was able to see a population of people who had their voice taken away.

And so now when I drive around, I'm always looking and I can see the shopping carts or, you know, the tents over here in the corner that's hidden over there and even working on the sixth floor. My window was right by a bus stop and there's always someone sleep right about a bus stop. And I'm like, you know, there's no way that I could ever.

I don't care how much money I make or how long I'm here. I can never ever Get to this point where I'm above the human connection. Yeah, because every day I walk in here. I am humbled I am humbled by the stories out here. I'm inspired by the stories out here The will to keep going and so I often show them that I know like this is the worst day ever on earth for you But look outside and so We have to stop taking things for granted and it helps put things in perspective.

Yeah, and so for me, it has not just been great for me working here, but it's also helped me develop [00:32:00] and push my mind out even further. And I think that's how society works. Oftentimes when I talk about mental health and society in general, people are like, what are you talking about? I'm like, I know it's probably hard for you to comprehend these things, Because you haven't opened your eyes to them, but once your eyes are open they cannot close.

Mm hmm, right? And then what's next? Well, we have to do something to change the world. We have to leave it better than what we got here. That was something I learned in the army. So try my best 

Chris: It's awesome. 

Teresa: Yeah, 

Rachel: this conversation has just been lovely. Thank you both so much for joining us. 

Chris: Yes. Thank you 

Teresa: Thank you all so much. 

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