When the Invisible Wounds Become Visible - Veterans and Mental Health

Beyond concerns associated with modern era military conflicts, veterans today are dealing with more nuanced mental health issues unrelated to conflict than ever before. From PTSD and the challenge of transitioning into civilian life, to traumatic brain injury and survivor's guilt, veterans need mental health supports when their invisible wounds become visible. But how do they get those supports?

In today’s episode, we'll be speaking with three individuals who have close ties to the US military and who are acutely aware of the unique challenges that veterans today face. All three work directly or indirectly with veterans in the context of mental health, and they’re here to help us better understand the plight of those who are actively serving or who once did serve our country in the United States military and to shed light on key resources available to veterans in need of support in the realm of mental health.

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Transcript

Neil: Maybe Shakespeare put it best.

We few. We happy few.

We band of brothers and sisters. For he who has shed his blood with me this day shall be my brother. Be he ne'er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition.

Chris: According to the National Institutes of Health, an increasing number of Veterans have been receiving health care services through the Department of Veterans Affairs since Operation Enduring Freedom in 2001, Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003, and Operation New Dawn in 2010. Beyond concerns associated with modern era military conflicts, Veterans today are also dealing with more nuanced mental health issues unrelated to conflict than ever before.

In today's episode of OK, State of Mind, we'll be speaking with three individuals who have close ties to the U. S. military and who are acutely aware of the unique challenges that veterans today face. All three work directly or indirectly with veterans in [00:01:00] the context of mental health, and they're here today to help us better understand the plight of those who are or who once did serve our country in the United States military.

Chris: And so with that, Neal, Maggie, Lori. Can you start out by giving us some context letting us know a little bit about what you do here at Family & Children's Services and also what your association with veterans is right now. Maggie, we'll start with you 

Maggie: My name is Maggie Penny. I was a military spouse to a Marine. I work at the VA in the homeless program and I did spend several years doing a group for military and veteran spouses. At Family and Children's I work for COPES.

I'm a crisis therapist. I've been here since June of 2022, I work primarily overnights And then, as far as my work with veterans, I am an outreach worker with the VA Homeless Program here. 

Chris: OK. And, Neil, how about you?

Neil: OK, I'm Cornelius [00:02:00] Johnson. I go by Neil. I am a retired army officer. I served a total of 27 years between active duty and National Guard and Reserve. I did one tour to Bosnia, I did two combat tours to Iraq.

 Here in Family and Children's Services, I am a therapist in the Navigate program where we help people who are struggling with psychosis. 

Chris: All right. And Lori, our co host, tell us a little bit about you. 

Lori: Yeah, that's impressive. My name is Lori. I am the new Vice President of Community Engagement here at Family and Children's Services. I've been on board about four months. I'm a retired United States Naval officer, all on active duty, um, from New Orleans.

Actually, when it comes down to my affiliation with veterans, I was a military wife of another Naval officer who was in Iraq, Fallujah. Also I had, you know, two children, born in the military, one at Keishler's Air Force Base, and one at Portsmouth Naval Hospital and Keishla was in [00:03:00] Biloxi, Mississippi.

So also my mother was the caregiver of her younger brother, who was a Marine veteran who actually was in Vietnam. So, yeah. 

Chris: Well today I have some specific things that I want to talk about with regard to veterans and mental health. But before we get into the specifics, I'm curious if any of you have any general feeling about your experience in or with the military pertaining to mental health?

 Can you just speak generally to what you saw, what you experienced, with regard to veterans and mental health, whether it was while you were in the service or after you had completed your time in the service? How do you perceive the mental health situation with regard to veterans and our folks in the military.

Lori: Maggie, you know, being a spouse of a military member, a military veteran, you know, what was it like for you?

Maggie: So as a spouse, I had the [00:04:00] opportunity to be pretty involved with my community. My husband was an officer. And his unit deployed pretty frequently. And on those deployments, we would stay pretty connected to other spouses so that we could kind of provide that community and support to one another.

 But I did notice a big change when my spouse left the military, I think the real transition for him from military service into civilian life and for all veterans that we knew, that's when I saw the biggest changes and the biggest, I guess, difficulties and disparities where mental health kind of came into play.

Lori: Yeah, I think, when you're on active duty, you're more voluntold, so if you see something You know, like see something say something you have your brother to your left or right or sister to your left or right So they didn't notice something different and your commanding officer or whoever that leader may be, you know They kind of push you [00:05:00] along and next thing, you know, you may have an appointment, to see You know someone in behavior health what we call it, you know, same as mental health.

So The access was really good at that time. 

Chris: Oh That's good. We just did an episode recently about stigma surrounding seeking therapy and it kind of makes me curious, in this context, did you sense that there was any sort of stigma, you know, maybe when you were active military in seeking out mental health services?

Was it welcomed? Was it, um, hush hush? How was that perceived? 

Neil: Well, I'd like to address that, if I could. My second tour to Iraq was, uh, 2006 2007, and I was out in western Iraq, not too far from Fallujah, a little place called Ramadi. 

Lori: Oh, yeah, Ramadi. 

Neil: Ramadi, yes. And I was a commander, I was a company commander in charge of a civil affairs unit there, and the mindset that the active duty [00:06:00] people had toward mental health was basically, at the start it was, you know, suck it up and deal with it, you know.

It was, you know. It didn't happen. It didn't occur. There were combat stress team people there that you could go to, but no self respecting officer is going to go there. However, I sent people there who had, you know, some mental health issues of their own. And I remember, like wanting to go myself, but I felt that stigma until one day we were every morning there would be this big.

giant teleconference where the commanders would get on and they would talk about this nationwide situation in Iraq. Like you had to be at least like a two star to get on this thing. And I remember listing that thing one time and General Petraeus came up on the line and basically said, combat stress is here.

 It's OK to go there. If you need to go there, I encourage you to do so. And I think that led to maybe the dam breaking, the stigma going [00:07:00] away where people could go and not feel as though they were being like, you know, get the side eye from their superiors or something. But that was my experience with the second tour of Iraq.

First tour, I did the invasion, 03, 04. I like to say I invaded Iraq with 150, 000 of my best friends. And the only mental health concerns we had was that we weren't able to sleep because we were so scared. Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Chris: Maggie, do you see much of a stigma in dealing with folks who are now out of the military?

You know, veterans, do you feel that the stigma remains? Or do you feel that veterans, have embraced it?

Maggie: I think it can go both ways. The population that I work with, I think there's a lot of awareness for the needs that they have in terms of mental health as far as the other, you know, health disparities that exist in the homeless population.

 But I, I think that the stigma still very much exists among veterans that it's sort of just, you know, they can get through it. This will pass and you see headway being made, [00:08:00] but I think the stigma still definitely exists. 

Chris: Do you think that it has anything to do with a sense of like toughness that needs to be felt when you're out actually in combat?

 Does that come into play at all? 

Maggie: I think it does. Yes, I think certainly people think that it's just a matter of being tough and getting through it. And I think that's probably one of the things that keeps veterans from utilizing the resources at the VA and outside of the VA.

But, you know, the population that I work with is pretty actively using services with the VA. So, I do see a change is occurring. 

Lori: Um, in reference to the veterans, Basically, not utilizing the VA or just passing by it the ones I'm coming in contact, they feel 

those are really injured people. I'm not that injured, you know, so I don't need to go there. So they're not utilizing the resources which is very interesting when conversation with my own [00:09:00] fellow military members. What I normally see is that a decline in, you know, maybe they lose their job or they're having relationship issues.

They're getting very irritable, and now they're going into a state of homelessness, you know? And now you're having problems with your marriage, but really you need to see someone.

 I think of it as when the invisible wounds become visible. And that's compartmentalized. Those compartments, cause in the military we are accustomed to to basically compartmentalize in everything you got to keep going like you mentioned earlier. You're out there with all your buds, but really you can't sleep at night, but you need to compartmentalize and keep going. But what happens when those compartments start to unlock and come open?

Yeah, and so you start seeing that so I know With friends and then with folks that I talk with that in the military because I always tried to connect with other veterans just to see, you know, what is it like being out? What type of suggestions would you have or [00:10:00] what type of issues are you experiencing?

Chris: How does that compartmentalization impact one's identity, especially as he or she transitions out of the military. I don't want to make assumptions. I'll, I'll just let you guys answer, but, does that create identity crisis? I mean how do folks manage that?

Neil: You manage it because if you're in a position of leadership, Your focus is accomplishing the mission. You're giving the tools, you're giving the personnel, you're pointed toward the objective, and you move out and take that objective. And you do that day after day. Your personal life, it's in a compartment in the back of your mind.

You don't think about it. and I was serving with the infantry guys. I was with the 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, and the 1st Brigade 3rd Infantry Division when I was in Ramadi, my second tour. And these are active duty infantry guys. They were for real. And they were totally about accomplishing the mission.

And so you compartmentalized and you just ignored whatever [00:11:00] your fears were. You just did the mission. But the thing that really got me about compartmentalization is that when you're reservists and you rotate out. One day, literally, you are in combat. Eighteen hours later, you're back in the United States.

Right. You know, one long plane flight, and you're back in the United States. Seven to ten days later, you're back home. So when you are out processing and you're going through the physicals and they're asking you if you have any problems, you don't have any problems. 

Lori: You better not say you have any problems.

Neil: Because you'll be stuck. You know, you want to get out of there and go home. So that's something else you compartmentalize. 

Chris: That's interesting. 

Neil: My back hurts, but I'm not gonna tell them. I'm seeing things, but I'm not gonna tell them because I want to get out here and go home. And unfortunately, we see here, , the veteran population, a lot of people just, you know, kind of ignore that thing, put it in the back of their mind.

Then they come back here and suddenly it jumps out of the box and says, you know, let's deal with it. 

Chris: Mm hmm. You talk about people coming home with this, up there in a [00:12:00] compartment. And they're out of active military duty. They're not interacting with doctors or psychiatrists or psychologists there on site.

What resources do they have when they come home for some therapy, some help? 

Neil: Well, there is, and thank goodness there is, there's always the veterans administration and we pooh, pooh the VA and we say, you know, it's the VA. And, and I share your concerns like, You don't want to go in there because you think those are really injured people.

When you drive up to the VA and you see these long lines of disabled parking spaces, you're seeing people that have like really suffered. You go in there and you see people in wheelchairs and people on walkers, people with, you know, Vietnam veteran baseball caps. You look at those guys and you think those guys are.

They paid the price. 

Lori: They're missing limbs. 

Neil: Yeah, they, they, they paid for it in blood. I'm just in here because, you know, I have PTSD, I'm a wimp. And so you beat yourself up that way. But as I've gotten older, and I talk to people, I said, no, like you said, [00:13:00] those emotional wounds, have to be dealt with.

We can bury them all we want to, but they're going to come back and bite us at some point if we choose to continue to ignore them. So. That's been in my experience. The VA has been very beneficial and very helpful for me. 

Chris: Yeah.

Lori: I remember, I'm in San Diego and I slip and fall. And I really knocked myself out when I came to, they were getting me up. And I was in denial because I'm like, wait, maybe it's my shoes.

But did I see stars? I guess so. But I'm good. I'm good. I'm more embarrassed than anything. So I go home.

The next day, it was my turn to drive for lunch. And I was thinking, oh, I don't have my car today. I was dropped off. And so when we all walk out, they see my car they said, well. How did you get here? 

Like, I don't even know. And it was like, whoa, like what's wrong with you? And I was like, nothing. And I was like, I don't know my head. I hit my head so hard and I had a knot and stuff. And it was like, we're going to bring you in. We're going to go right to Balboa. We bring you to the hospital over here. I was like, oh, come on.

I, you know, like, this is embarrassing. But I guess I must [00:14:00] have had a little amnesia, a little concussion, or whatever it was. But needless to say, I ended up in a TBI program. That was the most embarrassing thing ever. And here's the reason. Like you're saying, you're talking about being out to war. You're in war.

So I'm sitting around in this whole waiting room, with people who've been in a war, who've been through, you know, blasts. And that's why they're in there with TBI. And they took that very seriously. And I was embarrassed that I decided I'm not going, I'm just not going to go. But they had a conversation with me to say that there's nothing more important than my mental health, my health. And I need to go to my appointments. And they're going to give me all the time I need.

So there was very understanding. But I was still embarrassed. These guys have been to war and I'm sitting here and I'm like, this was clumsy or something. And I fell and hit my head, knock myself out. But they're talking about war stories. And I remember just keep putting my head down.

 But it was great because it allowed the folks to talk about their stories. It's kind of a way you just [00:15:00] didn't realize it. You're already in a group setting. And the way you sit, waiting on your appointment, and you know, they do it like 40 minutes early. So we have a lot of time to sit with each other.

 And it worked out. But the behavioral health portion was inside, embedded in it. So whether I wanted to deal with mental health or not. I was going to deal with it. But I'm so thankful to this day, you know, that was almost 20 years ago, 

but that's where the denial and the shame. I was ashamed to go. I understand the veterans that's now when he passed the VA, and they don't want to go there because those people they've been to war. They got missing limbs. And, you know, I just got internal battle wounds.

Chris: Sounds like one of the most cathartic experiences you had was out there in the waiting room 

Lori: exactly. But it worked. Yeah, it worked. Yeah. And so once I became educated and informed, hitting my head, it is just no diff It's not that it was a difference, but it, was the damage of a, a.

Blast. It's just as hard. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Lori: Yeah. 

Chris: Well, both you and Neil have [00:16:00] kind of touched on this and I'm going to take it a step farther. You guys are talking about, you know, hey, people are out there getting hurt. They're in this hospital hurt right now. What about survivors guilt? I mean, some were hurt.

Some did not make it back. I can imagine feeling that guilt about, Oh, I just bumped my head.

Neil: Yeah, you can't escape that. Each tour I was on, I knew people who died. When I was in, the invasion of Iraq, we were in southern Iraq. I was at Talil Air Base outside of Nasiriyah. I was there in October of 2004 when a terrorist bombing attacked The Italian military compound killed 17 people, some of whom I knew.

I remember in 2006 when we were in Ramadi. And I was having breakfast with this young, energetic captain. He's like, he could speak Arabic, and he was like, almost Special Forces. And he's like, I'm gonna go out there, and I'm gonna get the tribes, and they're gonna come along with us.

And he was like a fellow nerd. He was like, yeah, it's gonna be like the Ride [00:17:00] of the Rohirrim from Lord of the Rings. I was like, oh, they're gonna ride in like that? He said, yeah, you're gonna love it, Major J. I said, all right, tell you what, when you get back there, captain, we'll sit down and have lunch. He was dead two hours later from an IED and that's the kind of, you know, thing that you have to deal with.

Survivor's guilt is very serious and it's vicious in that even, even when you're home on leave, you want to go back. 

Lori: Absolutely. 

Neil: They send you home for two weeks and you come home and you're, you know, the first couple of days, you're drinking beer and you're eating burgers and all the things that you hadn't had because you've been living out in the combat zone.

And after about day 7 or day 8, you start getting antsy. You start looking at the news, trying to see, what are my boys doing? How are my boys? Has there been any attacks in Ramadi? And by day 10, day 12, you're jumping at the bit to get back. And it's weird, but it's, that's the bond that you feel for that person next to you.

[00:18:00] They've got our back and we've got theirs. Absolutely. And so, yeah, Survivors Guild is, is real and it's insidious. 

Chris: Yeah. What can we do to help these people?

Neil: Like you were talking with the VA, you know, just just sit there and just process it, just talk with a fellow veteran or a mental health professional that can understand because you got to just deal with that. 

Lori: And sometimes those stories are very like just gruesome.

 I have a good friend, his whole group, was killed.

He survived. He still was wounded. And it was not only was he just wounded, he was wounded mentally and physically. I recall I was in Rhode Island, in D. C. coming back, and I'm watching the news, and there he was on the news. They had said this incident had happened, and And it was him, and I dialed the number, and he picked up. It was, it's strange, but he was OK, you know. I understand exactly what you're saying, getting the help that you need, or talking with someone, so that's what he really needed.

He just needed a friend. [00:19:00] Like, I need a friend to call. Sometimes you can't dial the hospital at 1. 30 in the morning because you can't sleep, or you're having flashbacks, or you want to go back, or you're just reminiscing. You know so that, for me, it's important, like, to be that friend for another comrade, colleague, um, that I can just, I, I pick up.

Chris: Lori, can you talk a little bit about women in the military, challenges that are unique to women in the military? 

Lori: Yeah, actually, before I came on, I was just talking to one of my very good friends, a Marine, and the unique thing with her and we've been friends for a very long time and, her, husband, a special ops, he passed away and she was left with a young daughter.

Um, she's older now, still under age, but she's still older now. And actually she retired, but prior to that, you know, she was also when the Pentagon was hit. You know, she was in an annex, so she, you know, she tells the [00:20:00] story about hearing the, you know, the engines flying right over them, and then they're looking out, and then all of this, and you know, it's like traumatic, like, oh my goodness, but you can see these stories on television, but just to actually talk with somebody and be close to somebody to have that, and, you know, so she, she retires like myself.

And, you know, she started having different things, you know, she, it's not like it's PTSD or anything, you know, we're not labeling anything. So we don't like that labeling stuff. So we just like, I don't feel that great. Maybe it's just here or whatever the case may be. But as she continued to go to like the vet, the VA and the VA has done a great job, like for women, we have our own area on wing now, and that's really good.

So it's kind of nice to, you know, woman to woman. And when Um, her PTSD, to me, I'm thinking it's from that blast. I'm thinking it's from the Pentagon, running from that, being a part of that. But it wasn't that. When they really got down to the, they [00:21:00] went deep into that compartment, it was her military sexual trauma.

So that was like blown away. And just, to know now that, there's the vet centers, there's over like 300 vet centers all around. But she said that's what helped her, being in small little circles with other women who've actually experienced military sexual trauma.

And for myself, I can't say I experienced military sexual trauma, but I was able to put a close on it before it happened and it was dealt with. I was able to speak out. She was never able to speak out. A lot of women, they don't speak out or they're afraid to speak out. No one believes them. But I spoke up and spoke out and, you know, the problem was taken care of. So that's a, you know, that was powerful. So it allowed me, as I continued on my military careers to help other women until this day.

That's one of the things that I'm real big on. It's just, it's helping and speaking out and believing when [00:22:00] someone says, you know. 

Chris: Do you have a sense for how widespread that situation is, military sexual trauma? Did you, interact with many people who had experienced that?

Lori: Absolutely, but it's something you don't really talk about. But if you put a bunch of females in a room together, I am shocked at the conversations. , and it's not just women, it's men too, you know, working in medical, I would see the men come in the same exact thing.

That's why it's not women's sexual trauma, it's military. But in the, in the female aspect of it. Is that if it wasn't a problem, we wouldn't have the resources the way we have. That's how I look at it. 

It's OK to come out now. It's OK. Let the compartment unlock. 

Chris: So, so we kind of come back full circle to compartmentalization again, and it just compounds it because you have this military sexual trauma. Then the compartmentalization, which is, like a repression of what you're experiencing.

We've talked about [00:23:00] PTSD. We've talked about traumatic brain injuries, survivor's guilt. Maggie, do you experience folks who are experiencing any of these and how do you, uh, how do you interact with them? What can you tell us that we can tell them or what are you telling them? How is that conversation going?

Maggie: I would say absolutely. So within the VA homeless program, it's housing first. So we're visiting with them because they want to work on housing goals, or sometimes we're just, doing outreach, you know, trying to see if we can help them engage and initiate service within the VA. Very often take veterans to appointments.

I'll wait with them. I'll make sure they get back to where they stay So I do as a social worker feel like this is an opportunity that I have to not just normalize an experience But help them embrace whatever they're going through so that I can make sure that they do find wellness 

Lori: Cornelius, I would like to ask you, cause I can go story after story and [00:24:00] so can you being, in the military that long.

And thanks Maggie. That was really good, you know, so, and thanks for the work that you do to help us veterans, cause we all together is one. , I recall, down at one duty station. We're all they having a event that's getting ready to go down. So we have more officers than normal and we try to eat together where we were doing lunch.

So we all try to, you know, when the pilots coming in, the doctors getting off the chaplains, everybody try to get together and break bread together. Well, we're breaking bread and, we have one, one of the workers, he is there. He's just, all of a sudden, he just didn't want to talk right now. He's just not interested.

He's not engaged. Just out the blue, but he was earlier walking over to the galley and, so he kept putting his hands to his head and just kind of like being more irritated for no reason that's not him. He's a beautiful personality. And what happened is that while we waiting for the next spot to open so we can all go in, it might have been like a Labor Day weekend type special.

I can't [00:25:00] recall exactly. And everyone's there and he just put his hand on his head and then he just took off running fast as he could. In his uniform, we're all on the military base and he was thinking like, what is up with him? That's what the other fellas were saying. And it was like, OK, Lori, go ahead, because they know that's where she's going to go, you know, figure out what's going on.

So I went behind, I gave him his space. So I went back, I went to his office, and knocked on the door, he had it cracked. So he didn't have it closed, he had it cracked, that mean I can go in. And knocked on the door, and he sat down, he said, look, commander, I just want to apologize. He said, there's one thing that you don't know, which I don't, I don't ever talk about, I don't know what happened, but he was over in Iraq.

And he's like, you know, you see that you have the window like you see this trash can over here. Well, you know, they just blew up a building that close to me, and the sound is just so unbearable. And every now and again, he's like, I don't know. It's just something happened. I hear these sounds and it's [00:26:00] just like I hold my head.

I start and he just start running. He said, I'm so embarrassed. Could you just tell the rest of them? I said, OK, but he never shared that story with me, you know, but because way before I knew about those blasts, those TBIs, and he was one of them to get some help and then, so because he never got any help now, he needs mental help, you know, because he didn't get that help early.

So do you see being over there losing folks, um, you know, and your brothers and your sisters and all of those, you know, those blasts though, the TBI is real. 

Neil: Yes, one of my officers serving under me, received a TBI. He was in a Humvee. They were on a patrol, I believe, in Ramadi. And they were going down the street, and it's rubble on either side.

It looked like the moon I mean, he was just level and somebody jumped out from behind one of these piles of rubble. Couldn't have been more than 20, 30, 40 feet from him with an [00:27:00] RPG on his shoulder and he fired it and it detonated against the armored Humvee on the passenger side front where this junior officer was, uh, he was the track commander there.

So he got hit by TBI. So, I've heard from him. He still has migraines, but we gave him a bronze star and a combat action badge. 

Lori: Well, he earned that. 

Neil: Yeah. He earned it. And a purple heart. 

Lori: And a purple heart. 

Neil: And a purple heart. But. But yeah, it's, it's real, the TBI, that's the one instance that I am aware of, but I've seen other instances where people have just, you know, had some issues in combat and just like, you know, I want to go home.

I've seen that once or twice. 

Lori: Yeah. Just in those, that's when that, those compartments just start unlocking themselves and you have no idea what's really going on. I know I have a few friends, you know, when fireworks come, I had one, just hit the deck when the fireworks came and everybody's looking like, what is going on?

And, they peek up to say like, Oh, cause you also are kind of embarrassed [00:28:00] and shame because no one else see what's going on. And until they tell their stories, we don't know. Those are the invisible wounds that you do not see. And they turn out to be visible. 

I had another anesthesia person. He called once. I didn't answer. He called again. I did answer because it was late. He was in Iraq and he was like, look, I need you to just get to my, he's from Florida.

Can you just tell my mother and my dad? I love them. He's giving me all these messages because he didn't want to warn him that late. But he was like, we're taking on incoming, we're taking on incoming, and he's the, he was the only anesthesia at the time because they were already out. So to hear these stories after stories, I know for me, that's kind of burdensome on me as well.

Because I even have my own, you know, scenario. So, it's just, it's so good to be in a group, but we vowed to help one another. So when the burden gets too tough, let me just give a call. But, um, yeah, so those stories are real. So you have [00:29:00] all types of veterans. We come across you, we have unique, PTSD trauma.

Chris: Well, and it's interesting what you were saying about PTSD a little bit earlier. And I say this as one who has not been in the military. Lori, as you know, my dad was. a Marine, but he was out by the time I was born. So as one who has not been in the military, as I consider the concept of PTSD, it's easy for me to say, I understand that there's terror involved with that, that there's fear, that there's trauma involved with that, but you mentioned something that I think is really interesting, and that's you mentioned shame and embarrassment.

And, as one not having been in the military, I don't think of that, and I'm glad that you mentioned that, because, again, it's just one more thing, or two more things, that are adding to the mental stress that veterans are facing 

Lori: Maggie when you think of thank you and your military brat Double dog, right?

So Maggie [00:30:00] when you think of being a military spouse Did you feel because I I was a military spouse as well. Did you feel kind of shame and guilt? Behind like your husband serving in war and then coming home 

Maggie: I don't know that I felt shame or guilt. I was actually going to speak to what you just said a few minutes ago.

Lori: OK. 

Maggie: There are things I remember very distinctly that we didn't celebrate 4th of July together. I took the kids to 4th of July and it was unspoken. So the base, Camp Lejeune and Quantico, they always did really nice celebrations but I, I just knew it was going to be me and the kids wherever we were. You know, another thing is the wind.

my spouse was in Afghanistan. And so I can remember, real windy days just knowing all this may be, this may be a trigger. This may be a difficult moment for my veteran. But, I had a lot of difficulty knowing kind of what it was going to, what the days were going to be like, because PTSD kind of rocked the world when that diagnosis [00:31:00] hit.

 So there are some days that you wouldn't even notice there were no triggers at all. And then other days it would really, uh, kind of make life really difficult for, for my veteran. But I think that, to speak to as a military spouse, my spouse was really good about just getting those boots on and looking real sharp in his camis and, and, Going to work every day.

I didn't see any of the symptoms for PTSD until we were completely out of the military life. And so that's why, you know, community is so important. But yeah, I, I think that, as far as shame, I didn't know how to be a good spouse when it comes to dealing with those triggers and those symptoms.

On the spouse side. But when he was deployed, it was also difficult to know like exactly what the needs were 'cause there were long times or weeks or sometimes even a month where we didn't speak, we didn't communicate via phone or email. And [00:32:00] so being present was difficult. So I probably did feel some shame.

 I know that I would love to be able to communicate with you or send you the things that you want or need and so yeah, perhaps in those aspects. Yeah 

Lori: Yeah, thanks for sharing. I know those those sandstorms because I know All that sand came back in the boxes and all over this fine sand.

It's just kind of like wow And if you haven't been out there, you really don't know. So Cornelius, you can tell us about it. But I was thinking it's just wind and you complaining about sand, like, wow, it should be other things you complain about. But when I saw that sand that doesn't come off, that's on everything.

You got to toss it out. You know, it's just a small things that you would not think about, like, you know, touching a person or walking up close to him or getting too close to him. All of these things are sitting here. You don't want your back not sitting to the door is a reason behind all of that. I know communities are shaking your head, but you should be able to, [00:33:00] you know, help us out and tell us because those are the small things that can help others.

Neil: Yes, I sit, I watched the door. I scanned the room. I admit it. You talk about some of the shame and denial, I've put myself back to when I got back from the invasion in like April of 2004. And I was working for the city of Tulsa at that time in the city attorney's office. I was a prosecutor.

And so I'm walking across the the square there toward the courthouse and I'm scanning the rooftops. I'm looking for snipers in downtown Tulsa. It was different. I was in my car. I remember this. I drove through an intersection. I drove through a red light because when we're in convoy in Iraq, we don't stop for lights.

You know, we're driving these upper harbor Humvees with machine guns. We go through the lights and I went through a light that was It, it like Harvard down there on the BA and I'm like, Oh my God, did I just do that? So just the things that, that, come back to haunt you. And I wanted to touch on what you had [00:34:00] talked about, like the effects of the 4th of July and all that.

It was four or five years after I got back from the invasion of Iraq that I could sit down through the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. Wow. 

Lori: Wow. 

Neil: I just could not, that was just too intense, and it took me a couple of years to get to the point where I could sit through that, and I still occasionally jump at fireworks.

Lori: Wow. So, it lasts, it's a lasting effect. Rightfully so. You know, you mentioned about checking the doors. I did a program. It was myself and a few other gentlemen. We're in the class.

It's in the class early. So we get there. You remember the 15 minutes early or, you know, so I'm going to get there way early and I'm going to scan the exit signs. I've never been to war, but I've been, it seemed like I've been training the people, my brothers and sisters on my left and right, educate me on these things.

And I'm just, shocked because I'm coming out of the [00:35:00] medical environment where I'm taking care of the family members and doing other things, other needs of the military. And next thing you know, myself and three other guys, we all ended up in a stairwell. So I'm like, we all look, say we must be military members because it's who in the world would be in the stairwell.

We checking out exits. You know, and, you know, one of the individuals, you know, he, he made the comment, it's like, you know, this is, this is really not a, it's not safe, you know, it's not secured, anybody could just walk in. And I was thinking like, why are you terrorizing us with that? He, but they were both military Navy SEALs.

And this is not that long ago because, it's like the new Navy SEALs, they went, women could be Navy SEALs now. So now they're getting the training that they need, you know, to accept and understand women coming in. And so it was great, but now, instead of us integrate with the class, We started doing breaks.

We huddle by ourselves. And I say, Hey, we really need to try [00:36:00] to like mingle with the other folks because it's obvious. And we're walking in sync with each other and everybody, as long as I can look to my left or my right. You know, we feeling good. We go out to have drinks with the whole class and, you know, they come up and say, well, you got our back.

And I was thinking, why can't, why can't you have my back? I can't have a good time. But that's just that camaraderie that you, it's, it's, it's instilled in you and it sticks with you. So that's why, you know, it just made me think when I thought about that. 

Neil: Maybe Shakespeare put it best. 

Lori: Yeah. 

Neil: We few. We happy few.

We band of brothers and sisters. For he who has shed his blood with me this day shall be my brother. Be he ne'er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition. 

Lori: Powerful. 

Yeah. That's powerful. Maggie, do you know that, do you ever notice your husband, you know, once he came from, you know, he was in Iraq you said?

Maggie: Afghanistan. 

Lori: Afghanistan. OK. Do you, sorry about that. Um, cause they're different, right? And I, so did you know, you know, [00:37:00] the, you know, heightened sense of not emergency, not a heightened, but a heightened awareness, hyper vigilant. 

Maggie: Certainly. Yeah. It was very present when he came home. I think I remember there, we were living in Camp Lejeune and there was a hurricane right after he came back from the war and he was ready to just pack us up and head for the mountains because it's so, um, Yeah, there was certainly a hypervigilance that I noticed right away.

Lori: Did you notice it, it came off on you and the kids? Did it trickle over or no? 

Maggie: I think I'm certainly prone to that secondary traumatic stress. 

Chris: That's interesting. 

Maggie: Yeah, I, I've seen that. I, I did a lot of work in the community with spouses of veterans and that's something that we talk about pretty regularly is that secondary traumatic stress, that preparation that we do emotionally for how we feel that these triggers may affect our veterans. 

Lori: That's a powerful program that you're [00:38:00] doing. So one of the things that's always important just be the chopper that circle back, you know, to circle back for a veteran, be the individual to reach your hand out.

And help a veteran as they transition back into the civilian world, a transition careers and, you know, offer a hand and find a veteran to take under your wings. So that's what's always that that just helps me center. 

Chris: Well, we've talked about a number of things here. What resources are available to our veterans to help with PTSD, help with traumatic brain injury, survivor's guilt, what, what's out there for our veterans?

Lori: Actually that's here at Family & Children's Services that a veteran could actually utilize our services. 

Neil: Yeah. And if there's any veterans listening, they have to struggle with the denial and the shame, but there is no shame in coming forward and asking for help. Yeah. Uh, instead that takes, like they say in the army, it takes the strength of a warrior, to reach out [00:39:00] and say, I need help. And to know that if they are to come here, that they would be treated with respect, he or she would be treated with respect and dignity and that their sacrifice would be appreciated, and that all are welcome. 

Lori: That's wonderful. 

Maggie: Certainly, and I think, I mean, as I say, every time I work, you know, COPES is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And I think that a lot of times we get to be that first response, that first line response for anyone in crisis, but especially, you know, our veterans that need, you know, being able to answer that phone call or go out on scene and kind of remind them that they have support there. They have access to resources in the community that can really be there and provide the needs.

Lori: You know, one thing about access to care. The VA, the Department of Defense, they're doing a great job in creating the different resources that helps. But what I've noticed is that if, too much information is [00:40:00] just as, there's not as good as no information.

So sometimes the access to get the resources is just too much, like the website. So. Can you talk a little bit how is it easier with Family and Children's Services 

Maggie: I like to listen to see if someone is looking for a solution or support.

If someone's calling COPEs, for instance, and they're looking for resources for support, I mean, there's a long list in our community that I can provide. But sometimes it's a matter of really just providing that ear and listening to exactly what's going on. Because there are resources, but I feel like a lot of times it's the connection.

Chris: That's what it sounds like. 

Maggie: Finding that connection. And there's a lot of great places in our community where veterans can connect to the right people and those people will continue to be consistent in their life and help make sure that they're going to be OK.

Lori: I love that.

  You don't have to go to the VA or the Vet Center. [00:41:00] There's other resources like Family and Children's Services that you can get support. And not just for you, but you may be the family member, because the whole family, remember there's a thing called Military OneSource?

You know, but if you don't know that, but we're right here as well. You know, Family and Children's Services have that same concept. where you can get that help for the whole family and not just for that one individual. You may just be that, the veteran friend, the veteran mom, the veteran brother or sister, you know, because everybody, when one person serves, everybody serves.

Chris: Yeah. Well, Neil, Maggie, Lori, it's been so great having you here today. Powerful insights today. Great resources. Is there anything else before we wrap up today? 

Lori: I have one thing. So you put it in one of the things that members say, another reason why, sometimes veterans do not reach out and go to the V.

A. [00:42:00] Not only because they think that the people at the V. A. They are really hurt. So kind of guilt and shame. But also, they believe if they do go, it opens up a set of wounds that they do not want to be open. So, the people there, they come back and kind of, they might have wanted to distance themselves because they're, you know, they're either retired, you know, got out, whatever the case may have been, and they're trying to put that away, like just cover that up.

So, basically, when you go back, you're reopening those compartments that they don't want open. 

Chris: Yeah. That's a great point. I'm glad you mentioned that. You articulated that perfectly, the idea of reopening those old wounds. 

Lori: Right. 

Chris: Well. Thanks everybody for being here today. Any veterans out there, we do have resources available to you here at Family and Children's Services. And there are other places too, but we are always happy to work with you and to help you in any way we can. Thanks everyone.

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