Taking Pride in One's Identity: LGBTQ+ Representation in the Mental Health Journey

Being a member of the LGBTQ+ community brings with it unique challenges. According to 2023 Gallup research, 7. 6% of U. S. adults identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Within that group, most rated their mental health and emotional wellbeing much lower than their peers.

In today’s episode of OK State of Mind, we speak with two members of the LGBTQ+ community who share candidly about their own challenges in coming out, maintaining relationships with friends and family, and thriving in the larger community. The hope is that others facing similar challenges will find inspiration and hope from the stories these guests share.

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Thank you once again for accompanying us on the journey. Until next time!

Transcript

John: [00:00:00] one of the things that is important to remember is that my truth is just for me, and everyone else's truth is theirs. And so it's not my place to define somebody else's sexuality, orientation, or gender identity. It is my place to respect how someone chooses to be identified.

John: It's everyone's right to love who they want to love, to identify how they want to be identified. And, you know, I think it's all of our responsibilities to just be respectful and to treat each other with kindness without getting too hung up on trying to figure out what box I need to put you in. 

Rachel: According to 2023 Gallup research, 7. 6 percent of U. S. adults identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Of that, most rated their mental health and emotional well being much lower than their peers. But it's important to note that identifying as [00:01:00] LGBTQ+ is not in and of itself a mental illness or disorder.

Rachel: In today's episode, we take a deep dive into the stigma and challenges facing the LGBTQ plus community. Whether you're a member or an ally, it's important to understand LGBTQ mental health and how to find the right care.

Rachel: This and more on OK State of Mind, a podcast from Family and Children's Services.

Rachel: I'm Rachel Roberts, your host today, and here with me is John Ayers and Mary Ellen Solon. Thank you both for being with OK State of Mind today. Just to get things started, will you both tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do here at FCS?

John: Sure. My name is John Ayers. I'm the Vice President of our Outpatient Adult Community Based Programs.

John: I've been at Family and Children's for about 11 years, going on 12. I'm also a gay man. I've been out for about 30 years in the community and do quite a bit of work with members of the LGBTQ plus community. 

Rachel: Great. Awesome. 

Mary Ellen: Yeah, [00:02:00] and I'm Mary Ellen Solon. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I'm the program director for the Women's Justice Team.

Mary Ellen: And I've been with Family and Children's Services a little under two years at this point. I'm not a native of Tulsa. I am from Boston. And I'm also a bisexual individual who is a parent to a queer identified child. 

Rachel: Great. Well, thank you both again for being here today. Today we're talking about mental health in the LGBTQ plus community.

Rachel: So, just to start off, can you all talk about some of the unique challenges to this community compared to mainstream communities? 

John: Sure. I think, for me, the thing that comes out as the biggest challenge for our community is the coming out process. And for those that aren't familiar with what that is, the coming out process is the developmental process of developing an awareness of the LGBTQ [00:03:00] identity and then determining how to start making personal voluntary disclosures to other people that you trust.

John: Normally, that initial disclosure is to family or friends, and then trying to figure out levels of disclosure throughout different areas of your life. So for example, initial disclosure might be with parents, siblings, close friends, and then as people start to become more comfortable in their identity, it might expand to a broader friend group or for adults.

John: It might be coworkers. That is a very oversimplified way of stating that it's actually a very complex process that for some people can take years. And it comes with many layers of complex emotions. It can be very difficult to work through. 

Rachel: Do you think age plays a role in that too? I mean, if we have a child that's coming out versus someone who's more settled in their [00:04:00] life with their social circles and things like that, their career.

John: Absolutely. You've got a queer child. Yes. 

Mary Ellen: Yeah. I think it's always complicated. It's just different types of complications, right? Like the coming out process is not fixed. Like, for instance, John and I just came out to you all. And that matters because we do live in a culture that assumes heteronormativity is what we called, right?

Mary Ellen: That like, Being in a heterosexual relationship or identifying that way is the norm, and so we are constantly coming out all the 

Rachel: time, 

Mary Ellen: right? And of course, like us coming out, we're choosing right now to do so here on this podcast, right? But it's different when you're a kid, you know? Because like, In childhood development, it is a lot harder to be able to distinguish between yourself and between others.

Mary Ellen: And also, early on, like middle childhood through like the teen years, folks are really oriented towards each other in terms of being focused on each other's [00:05:00] behaviors, right? Because they're trying to look towards others in order to understand themselves better. And so that process can be extremely fraught for younger people.

Mary Ellen: It can definitely be more complicated because you have less choices about who you get to surround yourself with when you're a younger person. And you also have less choices about the feedback that you're getting. Does that make sense? 

Rachel: Yes.

Mary Ellen: Yeah. 

John: I can remember when I was very young, one of the first things that I learned, I was in third grade and, do you remember the, like the Valentine's Day bags? Mm hmm. And you'd have to go and pat the, okay. So I wanted to make sure that everyone got a Valentine's so that no one would feel left out.

John: And so I did that and I put a Valentine's in every single bag and I didn't really pay attention to whether or not, boy or girl, just everyone got one, right? And I remember signing it, love. And it was either secret valentine or I signed my name. And then when everyone got their bag, I got just terribly [00:06:00] ridiculed.

John: And so I went home and I was upset and my mom, she, you know, she consoled me, she, you know, gave me hugs and probably some cookies. And afterwards she explained to me that what I had done wrong, the mistake, was that boys are not supposed to tell other boys I love you And so this was in third grade, right?

John: So now at this point in my developmental process, there was nothing in my radar thinking about well, I'm probably gay. But I learned an important lesson that would then set the stage when I became an adolescent of If I like other boys, then there's something inherently wrong with me. And so we learned very early all these developmental lessons and they come from all over.

John: They come from the media, they come from our family, they come from school, of 

Rachel: Toys. 

John: Toys. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Of what is considered normal and [00:07:00] correct based on heterosexual standards. And so we internalize that and for people who are not heterosexual, there becomes this kind of existential crisis of, well, this doesn't fit for me.

John: So what do I do now? And that is the, I think, the beginning of the coming out process. It doesn't actually start with telling another person. It's a recognizing of I don't fit into this mold. So what does that mean for me? 

Rachel: Self realization. Yeah, this is who I am. Yeah. So, you know, we were talking about the coming out process and, and I think you mentioned that, you know, clearly you're not always going to be supported when you're coming out.

Rachel: Some families are supportive, some might not be, but can you speak to navigating that family response? 

John: Yeah, so I think, and to be clear, you know, I think majority of people today are coming out at younger ages, however, that's not always the rule. There are people [00:08:00] that come out later in life, there are people that come out very late in life.

John: I think, if someone decides to make a personal disclosure about their sexual orientation, about their gender identity, things that are the most helpful are first thanking someone because if I disclose to you something about myself that is that intimate, then that is showing a very high level of trust.

John: I think the next thing that would be helpful is listening to the story, just show compassion and understanding. One of the things that, and to be clear, I have a great family, very understanding. They not only accept me, they celebrate me. But that was a journey for us. We went through a lot of difficulty.

John: There were some stages of grief for me, for them. So we had a lot of work to do to get there. But things that aren't always helpful are questions like, well, are you sure? How do you know? Is this just a phase? Alternatively, things [00:09:00] like, I'm so glad you trusted me. How can I help? Tell me about your experiences.

John: Let me listen. What else would you like to share? Things of that nature are more supportive. I think, would you, do you agree with that? 

Mary Ellen: I do. I agree big time. And I think also it's important to remember that everybody's coming out experience is unique in the choices that they make as oftentimes dependent on emotional and physical safety.

Mary Ellen: I think for a long time, everybody sort of thought that there needed to be like a gay pride parade coming out with every coming out, you know, that like, it was just like you come out and there it is and it's great, but there are many, many people that decide not to do that and that's okay, right? For many people, the safest option can be conflict avoidance, right?

Mary Ellen: As we think about it, the coming out process or anytime there's like difference within a family unit or a community that involves conflict and I don't mean like necessarily a fight. It's just that there [00:10:00] is a tension, right? And people might choose that they need to avoid that process. And they do that by leaving, right?

Mary Ellen: Or they do that by strengthening bonds with family members who are supportive and taking some time away from those who are not, right? And that's okay, for sure. And for some people, they need to have physical space. Like, in my own process, I had parents who I knew were supportive because of their values.

Mary Ellen: However, I had other family members, and I had a cultural context where being bisexual was bad. And in fact, being bisexual was very dangerous for me. for me and I was viewed as being dangerous by others, right? And so the first opportunity I had, I booked it out to San Francisco, right? Where I could have more safety and enjoy my coming out process there with people that I felt supported by.

Mary Ellen: And then came back to coming out to my family later when I was older and I felt like I had more safety. And so, it's really important to honor that like [00:11:00] the avoidance of, that I decided to engage in at that time helped set me up so that way I could come out successfully in a supported way when I was older.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, that's really powerful. And I mean, you just kind of touched on it, but are there options available, you know, if a family isn't supportive? 

John: Yes, I think it depends on a lot of different things. I think it depends on where you are physically, geographically. I think it depends on your stage of life,

John: your resources available, you know, certainly there are national resources and fortunately we live now in an age where you can get on the internet and find resources. That hasn't always been the case but it is now. One of the things that was particularly helpful for my family was PFLAG, which is a great organization.

Mary Ellen: Yes.

John: You know, one of the mistakes that I made in my coming out process, I started kind of figuring out some things for me when I was 14 through 16. And by the time I [00:12:00] had a real definitive conversation with my parents, I was 18. So, you know, doing the math there, that's about four years for me to work through a developmental process.

John: And when I told them in very definitive words, I am gay. Then I gave them about two weeks to get happy with that. And when they didn't, I interpreted that as, Oh, you're homophobic. And in a way, I kind of set them up for failure. Because I didn't give them the same time and space to work through some of the emotions that I had taken four years to work through.

John: One of the best things that happened is there was a teacher that my sisters had been working with who my mom happened to mention this to and she got them connected to PFLAG and that was one of the best things that could have happened for our family. Because they normalized everything that was happening with our family, with me, with them.

John: And after a couple years, we [00:13:00] got to a place where everything was starting to get better for us. We had a lot of healing to do. There was a lot of misinformation out at the time. This, you know, I came out, late 80s, early 90s, so this was on the tail end of the AIDS epidemic. Marriage equality was not a concept.

John: There was not this idea that we could live the same quality of life as our heterosexual partners. And so, they were struggling with all the things that I would not have. So PFLAG, definitely a resource that is out there for families. 

Rachel: For our listeners who don't know, what is PFLAG? 

Rachel: What services do they provide, or information, or things like that? 

John: So it's a support system specifically for allies and family members of individuals who are, members of the queer community.

John: So in my case, I had come out and was really kind of pushing the envelope with my parents saying, I'm gay, I need you to know this, accept it, 

Rachel: deal with it, and this [00:14:00] is me. 

John: And they didn't know what to make of it because they had known me as being heterosexual for 18 years. And now all of a sudden, I'm coming home with a boyfriend, I was very visible in my gay identity.

John: It was the 90s, you can use your imagination. And they just didn't know how to reconcile the two different identities. And so going to these meetings and kind of understanding that they hadn't lost a son, and that's what they were struggling with. They had a lot of fear about my personal safety.

John: I interpreted that as rejection. And so, being able to reconcile all those very strong emotions was helpful. And I wasn't the one to help them through that. They needed to have other parents that had shared experiences to say your son's going to be fine. 

Mary Ellen: Right. Yeah. And I think if I may just take a step back, this is something John and I were talking about earlier, is that, you know, [00:15:00] there are a lot of mental health concern risks for folks in the LGBTQ community, right?

Mary Ellen: Higher rates of anxiety, higher rates of depression, higher risk of suicidality. But the reason for this is not from holding the identity of being an LGBTQ person. The reason for it is the constantly managing the way that society treats us and views us. And we experience that. But then also our family members experience that too.

Mary Ellen: And so, it's so important to have spaces like PFLAG where parents are supported and they're able to work through their fears and worries, because that's often where rejection comes from. It's from that fear and worry of like, what's going to happen to my child? And also like, are we going to stay attached to our communities with this.

Mary Ellen: So it's twofold. And then us, who are LGBTQ, [00:16:00] are experiencing that, too. Like, will I be visible? Will I be seen? Will I be cared for? Mm hmm. So it's that tension there. It's not holding the identity. It's constantly holding the way that society views us. 

Rachel: When I imagine, you know, things that, the mainstream community might not think about like social interactions and going to a restaurant or a bar and can you touch on any of that?

Rachel: Like, I mean, because you were talking about anxiety, depression, things I would imagine that just every day. Things that other people wouldn't think about could play a role in that. 

Mary Ellen: Yeah, and I think what's interesting for me with holding like a bisexual identity, is that I've been partnered with a male for 15 years.

Mary Ellen: And when I go out with him, In restaurants, bars, wherever, like, I am not thinking about my safety or what our relationship looks like to other people. However, I have a very strong queer community here within Tulsa, and when I go out with my friends who are also queer, particularly those that hold the [00:17:00] same gender as I, it is a different experience even though I'm in the same place.

Mary Ellen: And so again, it goes back to, like, I, I feel like I'm living that constantly of, like, it is not about the identity that I hold. It is about the way that others are viewing me and my sense of safety there. Mm hmm. Yeah. 

John: Yeah, I think, much the same, I've been married now for eight years? Am I getting in trouble if that number's wrong?

Rachel: I was gonna say, he better not be listening. 

John: Yeah, bad enough. Um, But I've been partnered for longer than that and one of the things that continues to come up in our relationship is how do we behave when we're in public. An example might be we took a cruise vacation several years ago and couples out on the deck walking and holding hands.

John: And for us, that entailed a conversation. Do we hold hands? Do we not hold hands? Is that safe? When my sister had a wedding, do we dance, [00:18:00] do we not dance? And so public displays of affection for us are not always as simple as it might be for our heterosexual counterparts. Part of it is safety. Part of it is, do we want people staring at us versus, enjoying the moment like we don't want to be a scene and it shouldn't be that you know, we should be able to just enjoy the environment just like everyone else and yet that is just kind of a constant low part of our life, particularly when it comes to safety area, I mean most of the time when we are out in public particularly In this part of the country.

John: We are very conscientious of our safety And so where other couples might be Be able to walk outside and hold hands. We just enjoy each other's space. Mm hmm. Same thing within, you know, like a restaurant or a concert. I mean, we're very conscientious of our body, body proximity. 

Mary Ellen: Yeah, and you know, being the parent of like a [00:19:00] queer identified child, it is a lot of work trying to both teach her that she can accept her identity and also teach her that certain spaces are not safe. And that's like a really complicated thing to hold for someone like a young person I'm grateful that she gets to hold that with us and it does, it feels fraught, right? Of being like, you know with some of your friends, you may feel comfortable or that there are some cues you can look for from like the conversations you're hearing that they're having with their parents, right?

Mary Ellen: About like your identity or about conversations related to folks who are part of our community. But even that, I don't know. It's hard to articulate. It's like you're constantly doing this dance of teaching your child that they deserve to exist everywhere and when you are existing everywhere, it gets complicated fast and there are safety concerns related to it [00:20:00] emotionally and physically, right?

Mary Ellen: Which isn't uncommon for many folks that hold marginalized identities. We hear that from members of the BIPOC community all the time, right? Like, how do I help my child to feel safe and accepted and also know the realities of the risks that are involved in being in certain places. And the same goes for like parenting queer children, right?

Mary Ellen: In school, depending on like, if they experience teachers who are displaying, uh, through their words, through what they put up on the walls, right? That they are safe spaces for LGBTQ kids. You know, if they have those displays, if they have those markers that they can look for, then they know that they're a little bit safer, right?

Mary Ellen: But without that, it's really hard to tell. Does that make sense? 

Rachel: Yes. Yeah, it does. Um, can And this is for either one of you, but can, can you talk about gender expression versus gender [00:21:00] identity? 

John: Yeah, so, and to be clear, I do not identify as trans. I am cisgender. I have done a lot of work with individuals who identify as trans, so that is where I would speak from.

John: How I understand it is, gender identity is how I internally identify. Gender expression is what I show the rest of the world. And those two things could be different. I might internally identify as female or non binary, but externally, express myself as a man, use he, him pronouns, dress in male clothes. So sometimes there's incongruence, and that might come from, again, fear, anxiety, acceptance.

John: I might be early in my exploration of identity. There's a number of reasons why identity and expression might not be one and the same for people who are non binary. One day their expression might lean more [00:22:00] towards a feminine side, another day it might be towards masculine. Sometimes people will blend the two together.

John: So expression is what you see on the outside. Identity, how I understand this is what is internally how I see myself. 

Mary Ellen: Yes, absolutely Yeah, and I think it's important to normalize too that everyone regardless of where they are on the gender spectrum and all of us are on the gender spectrum, have that gender identity and also have gender expression .

Mary Ellen: Like, so, for instance, I'm female identified, right? My expression of my gender looks different. Right now, for those that can't see me, I'm wearing a jumpsuit and I have makeup on. These are traditionally very, like, feminine things according to mainstream society, right? So today, I am playing up my gender expression.

Mary Ellen: However, if you caught me yesterday at work, and don't tell, don't tell the bosses, but I was wearing a hoodie and jeans, right? Now, there was not too [00:23:00] long ago, like this was in like the 1960s, Mary Tyler Moore made a splash on television when she wore pants because that was like a radical thing to do because wearing pants was not part of typical gender expression for female identified folks.

Mary Ellen: Yeah? So that's the thing. Like, gender expression changes and it often relates to what are the norms of the culture. But all of us are doing that gender expression all the time and it shifts within us all the time too, right? I think the difference is that folks who are trans identified are often othered.

Mary Ellen: And so, the experience of being in relation to one's gender identity and gender expression is, like, put under a microscope in a way that it's not for folks who are cis identified. 

John: So I identify as a cis male. When I was born, I was assigned the gender male at birth, based on my physical genitalia. As an adult now, I identify gender as being male, and I express myself. as [00:24:00] male. Those things all line up. So that is why I identify as a cisgendered male. For someone who, if, let's say for me again, if I was born as a male and based on my genitalia assigned as a male, but as I grow up, identify as a female or someone who is non binary and express myself as female, or gender fluid, those things are not matching up.

John: So that would fall more under the trans umbrella. So cis, how I understand it, means everything matches up. It's congruent. Trans means there's an incongruence between what happens at birth, what you are assigned at birth, and how you see yourself and how you express yourself. That is, that is the easiest way that I understand it.

Mary Ellen: Yeah. And even that, like our bodies, we're understanding more and more, but even that is on a spectrum, [00:25:00] right? So like intersex people are real. Yeah. Um, and, it goes beyond just like what chromosomes or what our bodies have. I mean, and that's why it's like important because a lot of this is like, How we as a society are making sense of, like, what it means to be a person, just to, like, be a human.

Mary Ellen: Yeah. 

John: And I think that's one of the things that is important to remember is that my truth is just for me, and everyone else's truth is theirs. And so it's not my place to define somebody else's sexuality, orientation, or gender identity. It is my place to respect how someone chooses to be identified.

John: It's everyone's right to love who they want to love, to identify how they want to be identified. And, you know, I think it's all of our responsibilities to just be respectful and to treat each other with kindness without getting too hung up [00:26:00] on trying to figure out what box I need to put you in. Right.

John: And I think that's where we get tripped up sometimes. The reality is that our language is limiting and it doesn't adequately fit where we need it to, for the very reasons that Mary Ellen just said. We're continuing to expand our understanding of sexuality, gender. We just have to do the best we can.

John: And whenever I meet someone who gives me a gender identity that I don't fully understand, the easiest thing for me to do is just ask. You know, when I came out, again, it was in the late 80s, early 90s, the term non binary was not in our vernacular. That doesn't mean that those individuals didn't exist.

John: It just meant that we didn't have terminology to adequately describe those individuals experiences. And as our terminology continues to expand to more [00:27:00] adequately help understand the experiences of these individuals. We're going to struggle with trying to figure out how to talk to one another.

John: I think two things. One, we have to give each other grace. And we also have to be respectful. You know, when people ask me questions about what it's like to be gay, I try and answer them in a kind way. You know, one of the questions I used to get all the time is, when I was in a relationship, well, who's the man and who's the woman?

John: I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I heard that. If it's coming from a place of genuine understanding, I'll take the time to make that an educational moment. If it's coming from a place where it feels like this is just being really judgmental, I'll walk away. And so I, you know, I think it's okay for people to genuinely ask when it's coming from an opportunity to learn and to try and understand.

John: This is my perspective. I use this as an opportunity to [00:28:00] educate because that, that is how we create understanding for people that are not familiar with our community. 

Mary Ellen: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, Going off of that, I think even though it would be easy for me to stay closeted and be with all the privileges of a heteronormative, like, relationship that I exist in, I go above and beyond to speak about bisexuality.

Mary Ellen: Because I choose to do that because I know that I have, like, protective factors in place that allow for me to do that. You know? Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing is that, like, um, making that choice around education or making choices about, like, how you interact with folks who are putting your sexuality or putting your gender, like, under a microscope, It's okay to like not go there also, right?

Mary Ellen: So it's both like it's okay to do what John does or what I do and it's also okay to be like, You know, I'm not gonna go there right now, and I'm gonna make a different choice, you know, 

Rachel: How do you feel the Tulsa [00:29:00] community is? I know that we talked about geographically Maybe not, you know the most friendly atmosphere for this community, but I feel like, you know, FCS has been a supporter of the Tulsa Pride Parade and Festival.

Rachel: It's a beautiful celebration. I mean, the number of people that go out and show up is also incredible. How do you feel about the Tulsa community within the LGBTQ plus? 

John: Hmm. Do you want to go first? 

Mary Ellen: Well, I mean, I think You know, Tulsa is such an amazingly diverse place, and there are many Tulsas existing at the same time, which is true for any community.

Mary Ellen: And I think that there is like a very strong presence here of LGBTQ identified individuals for sure. I think we often know who, who we are, um, but we're not really kind of like a unified force. And I know that you're not asking that, that, that wasn't like your [00:30:00] question, but I think it's important to start within the community first.

Mary Ellen: I think we're looking for more opportunities to be able to, to connect and have more spaces to be public. And I think, yes, Family and Children's Services participating in the Pride Parade is really wonderful. And I think it's like a really wonderful first step, and that we as mental health professionals especially can really work hard to make more opportunities for us to be present and out and talk.

Rachel: Always room to grow. 

Mary Ellen: Yes, yes, yes. 

John: I think we're kind of in that middle ground. There are certainly other cities that are more embracing of the queer community. Certainly Tulsa is probably a better place to live than, you know, one of the outlying rural communities. And I think that's probably true for most areas of the country. I think there's this tendency of urban migration, cities seem to have more resources for the queer [00:31:00] community. Tulsa is generally good place to live. I think if you are a member of the LGBTQ community. I think it's accepting. I don't think that, and, and there's, so let me back up. I think in terms of being a gay person, I have found that there is a difference between tolerance, acceptance, embracing, and celebrating.

John: And I think Tulsa in general is probably on the acceptance side. And what I mean by that is, Okay, you can live next door to me, and We're not going to give you any problems versus embracing or celebrating, which is the recognition that our community has a lot to offer. It is a very vibrant, colorful, rich community with history dating back all the way to World War II.

John: It is fun. It has all kinds of art that can be, um, valued [00:32:00] and contributed to society. And there are some communities throughout our country that recognize that, embrace it and celebrate it. Then there are others that outright reject it. And then there are others that don't necessarily value it, but we're not gonna kick you out.

John: Do you know what I mean? I'm using that in a very loose sense. I think Tulsa You know, falls somewhere in that middle range. I think there's areas where we can improve significantly. And I'm also going to kind of break this up. I think in terms of the LGB community, it's not too bad.

John: I think for our trans community, there's a lot of work that still needs to be done. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Rachel: Mary Ellen, can you tell us about the criminal legal system and how our women's justice team provides support for its LGBTQ plus clients? 

Mary Ellen: So yes, the Women's Justice Team is a substance use and mental health outpatient clinic for [00:33:00] female identified and gender diverse individuals who are at risk of further entanglement with the criminal legal system. So when we're thinking about incarceration, the LGBTQ community has higher rates of experiencing incarceration, higher rates of experiencing houselessness, higher rates of engagement with disordered substance use as a way of being able to manage the stressors of social acceptance and rejection.

Mary Ellen: And so, you do see higher rates of individuals who are LGBTQ who are in jails. Now, going back to the gender identity and gender expression conversation, jails are extremely binary places. There is assumed that there's only two genders, male and female, and folks will oftentimes need to hide their true gender identity in order to [00:34:00] be safe in those spaces, right?

Mary Ellen: And then they're, in addition to being used to hiding that gender identity, modifying gender expression for safety, when they come out of jails, they are needing an extra level of like sensitivity and care and welcoming, from their treatment providers, right? Because oftentimes when the way that, Family and Children's Services has navigated support of folks who are reentering into the community jails.

Mary Ellen: It's been unbelievable. It's wonderful. And oftentimes our providers are the only source of support for individuals who are leaving jail, right? And so we need to have extra sensitivity and extra awareness about what the barriers are and take more time with building that trust. So that way folks can feel comfortable with disclosing their status as an LGBTQ identified individual. So we work really hard at the Women's Justice [00:35:00] Team. We're working on the name before anybody calls me out on that. We're working on the name. But we work really hard with all of our providers to practice cultural humility, and to be very aware of the protective and the risk factors that are involved with trying to access mental health support for folks who are LGBTQ.

Mary Ellen: And that's from the way that we choose to decorate our offices down to the way that we ask questions of individuals when they start with intakes. And the trust and the nurturance that we try to foster for helping people to realize that they're in a safe space, that they're not at risk of further harm through discrimination, which can be like a very, very fraught process.

John: So, one thing I would like to speak about just before we talk about specific services, the LGBTQ community is one of many marginalized groups that is at increased risk for a number of things. Substance use, suicide, [00:36:00] depression, and it all goes to many of the things that we've talked about so far. The coming out process, rejection, some of the, kind of stereotypes and marginalization that happens in society.

John: And so an example of what that might look like, I'll give you another example from my own experience. When I came out to my parents, I left Tulsa and went to St. Louis. And having some realization of what was going on with me, I realized that I had fallen in love with another guy and realizing what that meant had an incredible amount of shame.

John: Had not told my parents, moved to a different city, realized I could not tell anyone that I was going to college with. So I had no friends, no boyfriend. Nothing that I could tell my parents. And the amount of aloneness that I was feeling was crushing. And so, I didn't know what to [00:37:00] do.

John: So, I mean, I, I just stayed in my room. And didn't go to class. And spent a lot of days crying. I mean, I was, the depression that I felt was crushing. That is not a unique experience. People will turn to substances, that is one of many reasons that the risk for suicide is high. If I come out as a young person to my parents and they say, you can't live here.

John: We don't, because of our beliefs, you are not allowed to stay in this home. And so then they get turned out to the street. Or, let's say I'm an adult and I come out to my grown children. You can't see the grandchildren. There are a number of reasons why that process of personal disclosure can then lead to a number of mental health reasons.

John: Without getting into too much of the weeds, even just our current political climate right now, there have been so many LGBTQ issues that have been political talking points. And when my [00:38:00] right to exist becomes a political platform. It is very hard not to internalize much of that on a daily basis.

John: And so knowing that all of those things start to just become constant drips onto your self esteem, onto your mental well being, those things then set the stage for developing much of this. Um, again, particularly if you're in that very early process of trying to determine, who am I?

John: What is my identity? How do I fit into this community? And in that very early stage, it's hard to connect, to find other people like me. You know, most of the connections that we make a lot of times are in bars. They're in clubs. Fortunately, in some of the larger cities, there are youth groups in the schools, but even those are now starting to get dismantled.

John: So all that to say, we see higher rates of substance use. We see [00:39:00] higher rates of depression, anxiety, suicidality. In addition to Mary Ellen's program, we have outpatient programs here at Family and Children's. We have just recently started a support group specifically for the LGBTQ plus adults.

John: So, There are services available. There's also the Dennis R. Neal Equality Center, which is downtown, another great resource. The Trevor Project, which is an online resource, has lots of useful information. That's another one I would point people towards. These are all resources that are available.

John: We have programs that can provide counseling and support. I would highly encourage anyone that's listening, if you know a family member, if you are struggling with any of this, reach out because there are resources available to help with this. And the, the more that we know that people need help, the more we can develop those resources.

Rachel: What advice would you all offer to other mental health professionals?[00:40:00] 

Mary Ellen: I think two things is that, like, I really want for mental health professionals to know that, like, even if they know that they are supportive of the LGBTQ community, including if they hold that identity, right, of being a member, it's really important to remember that, like, what our clients who are LGBTQ identified have experienced and what they have overcome internally and socially in order to walk through that door to get to your office.

Mary Ellen: And so you have to honor that. So that, and it needs to be at the forefront of your mind because we are looking to see. We are looking for those cues to know that you are a safe person, you know. Recently, I restarted therapy again. And I think that all mental health professionals should be in therapy.

Mary Ellen: I just want to put that plug in there. I recently started therapy again, and it took me a long time to come out to my therapist because I did not have those overt signs that [00:41:00] she was, open and accepting of my identity. She also assumed a lot about my identity because I talked about my male partner or the fact that I had a child.

Mary Ellen: And so those assumptions led me to believe that I needed to hide that part of myself. So like as a mental health professional and also somebody who accesses mental health resources, it's really important for mental health professionals to hear this. Be overt in your support and be overt in your understanding of the barriers that it took for somebody to get there.

John: Yeah, I do think that's important. I also think that, when working with someone who identifies as a member of the LGBTQ community that we, we don't make assumptions, but also that our role is to listen and to provide support and to be really careful about encouraging people one way or the other [00:42:00] regarding their decision to come out.

John: Yeah. And here's, here's what I mean by that. If someone comes to me and they disclose, you know, I, I'm gay. Um, I don't know if I'm really ready to come out. There's a temptation. Just to be completely honest, um, having been out for 30 plus years, for me to say, yes, yes, you need to come out. Kick open the door, welcome to the world.

John: However, that is really not the best practice because let's say I've got a 17 year old that's still living with parents who have very conservative values and then I give this guidance for this individual to come out. And they go home and the next thing that happens is they get kicked out or they lose their ability to go to college.

John: The other side to that is if someone comes in and they are for sure going to come out, it's not my place to discourage that process. [00:43:00] Because then now I'm sending a message that there's something that you need to be ashamed of. Yeah. I really think that our role when someone is trying to come out of the closet, or work through any of the issues, is to let them lead the journey, and for me to just be supportive in that.

Mary Ellen: Yes. John, that was what was going through my mind, is like, let them lead, right? Let them lead in their journey, let our clients who are LGBTQ also lead the work in therapy also, right? And this might seem like a no brainer. However, If somebody is queer, and that's not why they're in therapy, Right?

Mary Ellen: Like, don't make it a thing for them, right? Like, that's really important, too, and that can be, like, good intention. Like, I want to, I want to show, going back to my first cue of, like, be overt in your support, right? Be overt, but also follow folks lead, right? So, like, what can happen so often for us who are LGBTQ identified is that like, we [00:44:00] are constantly managing other people's expectations or other people's feelings about our identity, even though we're not, right.

Mary Ellen: Like, oftentimes we are not right. And that's important too. So remember, be curious, be open, but follow individuals leads. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rachel: So John, I want to start with you. We like to end our episode with this pretty simple question, but what gives you hope?

John: So I think what gives me hope is, seeing how, in just a short time period, So much has changed in our community, both locally and then nationally. So, I can remember growing up, things in TV, in movies, comic books.

John: I was a huge comic book nerd. And I didn't see representation for people like me in the media, and things that I enjoyed and that I consumed. And today, I do. I see it in fiction, I see it in real life, newscasters, I see [00:45:00] people, national leaders, who are out and open about their identity, and that gives me hope. The other thing that gives me hope is more and more young people are coming out at younger ages and are very confident and secure in their identity, people coming out at, 14, 15, 16 and just being very out and proud about their identity and there's no way That would not have been me in junior high not not because I didn't know but because I I lived in fear of that identity and the fact that we have Student groups to help support those individuals, that gives me hope.

John: So, we are changing. It feels like we are in a very turbulent time for our community, but I think through that turbulence, we are seeing change, remarkable change. The fact that I am married today, when 30 years ago, that, I had, I had [00:46:00] completely given up on the idea that I would ever be married and today I'm married.

John: And so, those things give me hope that we are living in a time of very rapid change for our community and I think that's a good thing. Yeah. 

Rachel: Same question for you Mary Ellen. 

Mary Ellen: My answer about what gives me hope is very similar to, to John's and I think as members of the LGBTQ community, we have inherited a legacy.

Mary Ellen: Even if it doesn't necessarily exist in our, like, immediate family systems or family of origins. We are part of this broader, amazing community that has gone through so much. And we have so many elders to, like, call on to help guide us. And we have young people who we get to guide also. And that's really amazing that, like, our community exists all around us.

Mary Ellen: It's [00:47:00] happened before us. It's going to keep going. And that's the thing that I think gives me the most joy, is that, like, no matter what the political climate is, no matter what happens day to day, we have always existed and we will always continue to exist, and we will always find each other and our allies and see each other through it.

Rachel: Okay. Thank you both so much for being here today. I think this was a really important conversation to have and I'm just very appreciative of your time. 

Mary Ellen: Thanks for having us. 

John: Thank you. 

Mary Ellen: And thanks to Family and Children's Services for wanting to have this topic on a podcast. It means so much to me and I think it means so much to our community members.

John: Absolutely.

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Rachel: Until next 

Rachel: time