Debunking Misconceptions About Men's Mental Health

In this episode of OK State of Mind, a Family & Children’s Services podcast, Jesse Guardiola (Vice President of Community Engagement at Tulsa Area United Way), Adam Andreassen (CEO of Family & Children’s Services), and Anthony Adams (School-Based Program Administrator) have an honest conversation about the evolving definition of strength for men. They discuss the rising rates of male depression and suicide, and how outdated expectations around masculinity — from emotional silence to cultural and generational scripts — continue to put men's mental health at risk.

Together, they explore how vulnerability, mentorship, and culturally responsive support can help men and boys thrive emotionally. With personal reflections and community insight, this episode offers a renewed perspective on how we can support men in healing, growing, and leading with authenticity.

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Transcript

I'm sitting here and we're having a great conversation about mental's mental health, and we're talking about the scripts. We're talking about the, all the different factors. And I think that we would broadly perceive that maybe society is at least got the needle pointed in the right direction on reducing pressures and so on.

And at the same time, what's running through my mind is depression and suicide risk is actually sowed through the roof with males, especially young men and adolescents right now. And that's before you factor in things like LGBTQ plus factors, race factors, other things that can be sort of in society puts you even more out on an island.

And I really am, as we're having all these conversations, I'm battling the sense that as a society, I want to say we're progressing. And yet these statistics, I. Are really making me question my assumption that we've got the needle pointed in the right direction. 'cause how can we be [00:01:00] societally figuring this out at the same time that we are out of control, spinning in a direction with a whole gender on mental health?

Yeah.

Men's mental health is an important issue and is perhaps an issue that does not get a lot of attention. Cultural norms may emphasize behaviors that interfere with or even conflict with the notion that men may experience emotional duress, depression, fear, or anxiety. But we know these exist and hesitance to acknowledge them may lead to even larger problems.

Research shows that men are more likely to experience substance use disorders with rates 1.5 to 2.3 times higher than women. 6 million men are affected by depression in the United States every year, and men die by suicide at a rate of four times higher than women. [00:02:00] Today we want to look at men's mental health head on.

We'll address some common misconceptions about men's mental health and try to evolve some truths that span cultural and generational barriers today on, okay, state of Mind, a podcast from Family and Children's Services. All right. Well, with that, let's start talking about some misconceptions about men's mental health.

Before we get going though, we have a couple of guests with us today. Of course, we have Adam Andresen, family and Children's Services, CEO. But we do have a couple of new faces with us today. Jesse, do you mind going ahead and telling us a little bit about yourself before we get going? Yeah, no, thank you Chris, and thank you Adam, everyone here for inviting me to be part of this.

This is fantastic. So, I two years with the Tulsa area, United Way. I'm the Vice President of Community Engagement and Government Relations. Before that I did almost 27 years with the Tulsa Police Department as their workforce director and their Hispanic outreach director. Hmm. Okay. All [00:03:00] right.

Anthony, how about you? So, my name is Anthony Adams. I'm the school-based program administrator here at Family and Children's Services. I've been with family and Children's Services about two years in a mental health field for about two years. And before that I worked in healthcare and surgical services department.

So I'm glad to be here. All right, sounds good. Good crowd today and a big crowd. So today we wanna talk a little bit about men's mental health and maybe dispel some misconceptions about it. And so I wanna just present to you guys the experts here. Five misconceptions I believe are misconceptions about men's mental health.

The first one that I want for us to talk about is the notion that I. Men are impervious to emotional duress because they're strong. And we kind of get this from the superheroes that we've seen on TV and in movies for so long because they're physically strong. They are literally blocking the, the physical threats, but they also seem to be [00:04:00] impervious to the emotional threats.

And I think we've come to idealize these characters and, and aspire to be these characters. How has pop culture in general, I've talked a little bit about movies, but there are also other influences. How has this misconception come about? And, and what can we do about it? I was gonna say, I think one of the things for me being a, a millennial here mm-hmm.

I think one of the things that. It's happening in culture now with a lot of our movies. I think that narrative is changing, but I think how it's been ingrained in our society for so long. Mm-hmm. Like even for me being born in 1990, I know growing up with my dad, it was like, we don't cry about those things.

We, we man up, toughen up and do all those things, all those kind of negative connotations with growing up instead of being able to express those emotions. So I think it's something that's been ingrained in our society for a long time. Mm-hmm. And even with, you know, media growing up and just, just different things where you see men in certain commercials or you see [00:05:00] when it comes to even medication, you don't see men in those commercials.

You see a lot of, oh, that's, you see a lot of women in those commercials, you know, don't see men in those. So it's just kind of something that's just been in our society for a long time. And so you were born in 90 and you still. Were raised mm-hmm. With this concept, men are impervious to. Absolutely.

That's interesting. Absolutely. Hmm. Kind of, kind of old school culture. Mm-hmm. That's in my family. So it's like a lot of things that, you know, my dad and his family had just the same thing, just kind of grow up the same way. So Yeah. Which is fascinating. 'cause the same in the immigrant and Hispanic community across the board.

Mm-hmm. You saw it from my perspective basically learning English from television and you took, you had takeaways from TV shows in the 1980s that were, you know, Miami Vice and these very A team and these very stoic Oh yeah. The people that solved problems and you're like, okay, that is who my hero was supposed to be or what it's supposed to look like.

Mm-hmm. And then when you turn to your own father or people that are involved in your family, and that's not how it works or. [00:06:00] They kind of mirror that and, but yet you don't really kind of de like how did you become that person in dealing with these kind of issues that we all know, we all deal with day in, day out.

Mm-hmm. That's interesting. So you were being educated in language? Mm-hmm. And then indirectly being educated about. How to handle emotional dures. Absolutely. Absolutely. You are constantly that resiliency piece that we all strive for in, in, in everything in life. You, you look at family as, or at least your earliest mentors, your parents.

Mm-hmm. As those that would teach you how to deal with that stress and what is coming. It's not so much that you want them to bulldoze everything down for you, it's just how to manage that because there's so many things in life that you have to deal with that anxiety and stress and what does that look like?

And for me, I had a mother who had a mental breakdown who, who suffered from d severe depression and severe anxiety. So not having her as a [00:07:00] resource and looking for that resilience piece is like, well, I turned to my father. Well, he was not around much 'cause he was looking for ways to provide for the family.

So now I. If you are looking for ways to survive outside of the way some deal with it and cope with it narcotics, other means of, of outward expression that is not necessarily healthy. If you're lucky enough to have the right kind of people to come into your life, then it kind of, it guides you into that.

If you look at a ladder, it rung, you know that next, that next step. And then obviously they hand you off to that next person. But internally, within our house, we didn't talk about this stuff. Mm. And it was, a lot of it was the people weren't equipped. Mm-hmm. And they were also taught by generational, just dealing with not talking about it.

That this is how it was dealt with. Yeah. So how much of this is, you know, we're, we're in America, American context, but then you talk about. Immigrant context, how much it is generational, how much of it's cultural, how much of it is, thank you. Marvel in DC mm-hmm. Because you all did [00:08:00] this to us, like how, where does this start and end?

Is it an American thing? Is this a worldwide thing? Is it a gender thing? Like you're like, Hey, millennial, I got it and you're immigrant. I got it. And I'm like, well, I probably roughly your age, but was born and raised here and I got it. Mm-hmm. So like, what, where did we catch it? I wanna say for. In my, in the African American community, it's one of those things, a lot of times they tell us to pray about it and go to church.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I just actually read a study that a lot of young men now, they, you know, instead of having going to a mental health therapist, they're going to see, talk to their pastors. And so that's something that's ingrained in our community, being very spiritual and not talking to people we don't trust, per se.

Because that was one of the things that was ingrained in me. Whenever my mom would send us to school, it would be one of those things like, hey, you know, if somebody asks you questions, what happens in the house? Stays in the house. And it wasn't anything traumatic, but it was like, this is your house. We don't, we don't trust people that's not within our circle.

Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] And then when you, when you brought up a team and things like that, I, I spent the summers at my grandma's house, so I remember watching a team and then like, you know, the Terminator growing up Yep. Movies that I probably shouldn't be watching when they out in the nineties, but it was like, you know, you sneak and watch those things.

But I always think of like John Wayne because a lot of people in, even outside of, that's a great, the United States like. When they come to America, they're like, oh, John Wayne was my first impression of how to be a man in America's. Like mm-hmm. All these, all these older movies and things like that. But I think, again, that's just something that was just ingrained in us.

It was just kind of like, like the Marble Man is like the, the Western Cowboys, all these things. So I have this perception that over the last, you know, the people growing up, really millennials that they also had layered on, and tell me if it's Zach or not, layered on this sort of like, but also young men should be tamed.

Mm-hmm. And should be more sensitive and open. And it feels like there is that almost battling pressure expectation to be more in touch with your feelings, to be a little [00:10:00] bit, you know, smoother and not as rough around the edges. And number one is, is that accurate? Has that been a pressure and a script?

And if so. Has it felt like battling or conflicting messages to man up and also be tame and, and state and be more you know, in touch with your feelings? Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think I got the if you can call it the best of both worlds. I got the best of both worlds of being, like you said, kind of the millennial and seeing how things are.

We're now, we're told to talk about our feelings. We're, you know, and I have a daughter now, so it's like I have to be able to express that, that sensitive side. But then there's also that part of me that's still that quiet, like, rugged individual. It's like, I gotta take care of the house. I gotta take care of these things.

So those things are still naturally ingrained in me. But you have to, you have to be able to talk about those things and be able to get those things out, especially when, you know, you're dealing with, when you move up. You know, for me, if you move more up, up the corporate ladder as a man in the, in a leadership role, you're not supposed to talk about things.

You're not supposed to show emotions. You are supposed to be stoic whenever you're in a [00:11:00] meeting, you know, not showing any emotions. But now. For me, it's like sometimes I'm able to show those emotions and not being judged for that, because that's for where a lot of men we are judged and that's why we don't, you know, show our emotions, different things like that.

But it's still that same, at the same time. It's the other side of it where in certain times I'm like, I just sit back and don't show any emotion and be emotionless. Or even if I'm at home, you know, interacting with my daughter, it's still like those times where I like, I have to have to break down that barrier.

Like, okay, I have to show this sensitive side of her. I just can't be, just be this, this macho man or this, this guy outside of, sure. Outside of my house for that. So you gotta, and, and raising two middle school teenagers and one boy, one girl 14, and soon to be 13-year-old girl. So it's, it's covering both grounds, right?

Mm-hmm. Developing both of 'em, but then also being a good representation of who you'd want them to be when they're no longer a part of your life and they've chosen another. It's often said, you know, the, the, the individual that your daughter is gonna end up with mm-hmm. Is gonna mirror a lot of what [00:12:00] you have represented Absolutely.

In their upbringing. So you're like, that's a lot of pressure. I gotta mean, I gotta make sure that that I step up. But then on the, on the boy side, you know, how do I create that strength? Researcher Richard Reeves talks about the looking for someone who will be quick to respond to a shipwreck and like being the one that's going to be the one that goes and helps people, but then also adequate to go and dance with.

So this like, okay, no pressure on. Yeah, exactly. So it's, to your point, Adam, where do we build that resiliency in our youth, but also. Understand that there's a time and a place to un to be open and vulnerable. Mm-hmm. And then be able to, to see that from a strength perspective mm-hmm. Not a weakness.

Mm-hmm. That you can be vulnerable with the people that you know need you to be vulnerable, to show them what does that look like. Mm-hmm. So I went to school to become a psychologist in the OTs, [00:13:00] and then we do these diversity seminars and I always go back, you talk about misconceptions. I'm like, how much of that that was told to me is true, formally told to me, still holds.

And one of the questions I have, like, we did a whole diversity seminar on machismo. Mm. And how much that is a Latino Hispanic pressure and expectation on men, number one misconception are true. Yeah. And. Either way. What impact is that have on the discussion about men's mental health? Huge. Now. Huge. And it's very true.

It's something that I, what is it? So it's just basically the stoicism that you see in a man goes to what you were talking about earlier, not talking about it. We're just gonna bury it inside. Yeah. And we're going to show strength through getting the job done, but never talking about what it took to get there or the, the hardship that, that you endured to get to that point.

One of the data points that's always stayed with me over the years when I was doing Hispanic outreach at the Tulsa Police Department, is that approximately around [00:14:00] 70% of the people that come here undocumented into the United States, come here with some sort of PTSD trauma from that journey. What was the percentage?

Almost 70%. Wow. And so much of it is undealt with, so they get here. They establish themselves as immigrants and eventually residents than US citizens. They have children in the US we're not dealing with, you know, these, these, this trauma that we dealt with, with riding the Iron Beast, that train that so many of our undocumented individuals ride.

And then, you know, what does it look like to cross over into the United States border? And I'm talking about historical over our generation. Mm-hmm. But it's trauma that goes un just untapped. And how do we help that so that then when they have their first generation American children, that they're able to somehow process that healthy wise.

And so it doesn't pass it down to, even if the trip went perfect in a first class carriage. Yeah. It's still as traumatic [00:15:00] in one sense to completely change countries context. Start over. Yeah. Like I, I mean, even if it's a completely smooth trip. With no trauma, there still is trauma with that transition.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you are taught machismo to bury it and deal with it on your own, whether you're crying by yourself or using some sort of suppression, alcohol, drugs. Mm-hmm. Womanizing, you know, things that, and again, I'm not making generalizations, but there are, I know without my own father, that's how he dealt with things.

And he was gone a lot because he had this pressure to provide for, for my family. So I didn't have that mentorship. I didn't have the what does it look like to deal with your problems? So whatever that stress is, whether it was academic from an elementary, middle school, high school, and even going on to being the first in your family to go to college, to how to engage with a, a young lady, you know, what does that look like?

So I had to lean on. Mentors. Mm-hmm. Football coaches, baseball coaches. All right. People in the community. [00:16:00] Pastors to show me what does that look like, to open a car door for a young lady, or a door for someone, you know, the kind of things that you would like to look at your father to, to show you. But he was too bad still dealing with unfelt trauma that he couldn't get past that, and therefore passing it down to me.

And then the script is unclear because there's what I see and then there's what I feel and then there's what's happening around me. All those things sort of informing what you should be doing. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you're just, you're, you're, you're leaning on strangers a lot. Mm-hmm. Mentors that but the kindness of their heart that look at you and like, you know what?

I see some potential in you. I don't know what it is 'cause you're a juvenile delinquent right now, but there's some potential and that they guide you into that next step in chapter in your life. And this is how you end up kind of coming out the other end of, of that impoverished background. Well, I know you said you had five misconceptions, and I have no idea if we jumped to three half.

We got two of them. Where are we at? Where are we at One, the [00:17:00] first one that men are impervious. The second one we touched on during our conversation, and that is, okay, so men are not impervious, they're just supposed to bottle it up. Mm-hmm. One suggests. They're devoid of emotional duress. The other one suggests we have it, we just have to clamp it down.

And I think we covered that one. Yeah. So we have kind of acknowledged that yes, men do experience trauma. They experience emotional ups and downs. And another misconception, I think I'm just throwing this out there, is that, okay, so we have these, these issues, but we're not supposed to seek therapy. Men are not supposed to see.

Mm. A therapist or a counselor? No, no. That's not a, that's not a male thing to do. And I'm curious especially with you two, if, if you have seen this in your practice, like men coming or men not coming in or women coming in and saying, yeah, I'm here, but my [00:18:00] husband, he says, you know, this is not for men.

I, I'm curious about, you know, if this is still happening or if this is even a thing. Maybe I'm just making it up here. I would say on two fronts. On the Hispanic side. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Seeking therapy is kind of one of those yeah. We don't do, yeah, because it and then also on the public safety side, the police side, you saw that as well.

Something we don't do. Because both both cultures, the police culture, the Hispanic culture, at least from the male perspective, is that somehow we have failed mm-hmm. In our manhood. Mm-hmm. And the fact that I need to go and speak to somebody about some unresolved issues, either from my childhood or just some of the things that I've seen trauma wise within my career or within my culture, the Hispanic culture.

That goes unresolved, but yet it is taboo to look at it because somehow you become very vulnerable in saying, I'm gonna go talk to a stranger when I can't even talk to my own family or my [00:19:00] colleagues. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then what you end up finding is I've seen police officers who have taken their own lives and we see it both in from the military standpoint and you see it on the police standpoint, that they just decided that this is their way to, to deal with it.

Mm-hmm. By ending it mm-hmm. In the Hispanic community is again that unresolved trauma. And even though maybe their children or maybe their grandchildren tell them, you know, you need to go speak to a therapist. I know I tried that with my own mother. We took her to a therapist. But it never took, you could tell.

I mean, it was, she, she was dealing with the best that she could with it. I will tell you the biggest part of that, the big, the greatest takeaway is that I got to sit through that and just hear what she dealt with from a trauma, because it was something that helped me figure out why. It's one of the reasons I studied psychology in undergrad because I wanted to figure out why my family's so screwed up.

We, all of us into the field, we went to fix our own family and then said, well, this is gonna take longer than I thought. [00:20:00] Exactly. Exactly. But it, it, it spoke to just helping me better deal with my trauma from that and then also that I can help with my children going forward. See, I think in mental health, you know, I think we have participated in the problem and maybe even made it worse at times because there's this notion, I, I know people when I was going to school for psychology.

I know people that left the field or thought about leaving the field because they were afraid they were getting calloused. Oh, I'm hearing the stories over and over and I'm like, here's the thing, if I have to dig holes all day, my skin is going to get tougher. So, so that I have a resistance. And if every day my job in law enforcement is around trauma, I do have to build up a toughness to this.

'cause I can't let it touch me and hurt me the same way over and over and over again. Mm-hmm. And if I'm a therapist, it's either I can be in the field for only a few years, or I have to get to the point in time that these stories don't touch me the same way they did five years [00:21:00] ago. And yet. As a psychologist, I felt pressure to stay so sensitive that I was just as upset by these traumatic stories in year five as I was in year one.

Mm-hmm. How can that be? And I feel like we've sort of let down society and mental health with this notion that if you go to therapy is to get sensitive, it's to soften your skin, is to sort of get where you're back to being touched by all that. And I'm like, look, I think it's a better idea to think of it like restoring range of motion to an injured knee.

Yes. You do therapy by reworking it so you have that range of motion. But if I'm in law enforcement, I have to restore a range of motion to either say A, I can't do this anymore. I'm too traumatized. Or B, I've restored an ability to take on this stuff that now is built up on me and, and so I dunno if that's making sense, but I just feel like mental health itself, we've done wrong by giving people the impression that we're just here to keep you sensitive and soft.

Talk about your feelings. Yeah. Yeah, man, that's just crazy. I [00:22:00] was talking to somebody about. Like our parents growing up and like generationally how, when we're, when they're going through it, you know, and you know, if you live in a level of poverty or just even everyday life, like they're doing the best that they can Yeah.

With what they have. So if, if my mom's mom had trauma and pass it on to her about not speaking to somebody and getting help, and then she pass it on to me. So it's just these things that keep going. But I, I'm glad now that with social media or certain things mm-hmm. Like, it's not a, such a taboo subject.

So now if I feel like I, I need somebody to talk to, like I'm not ashamed to go and do it. Or if I, you know, if my daughter needs, you know, needs a therapist in the future. Like, that's one of those things that we're just breaking those generational curses. And it's not always a deficiency. It might be a skill acquisition, it's not, it might be something I want to level up on.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's, Hey, I'm having this tough situation at work, or I'm having, you know, I'm having this difficult point in my period now parenting, you know, parenting a teenage girl. Like, what, can you help me with that? Or Can you help me navigate that? Or can you kind of help me, [00:23:00] you know, navigate how she's feeling so I can help her?

So yeah, it's definitely one of those things that can be a strength more than, you know, talking about your phones or being a weakness. And you all both kind of touched on it in different ways, but I do wonder not to try to get into the genetics of generational trauma because I don't know, I, there's talk that there might be a genetic component, but who knows?

But the ways in which the stories in the scripts get passed down. If your dad's gone, something gets transmitted when he's gone and then back. And so I do wonder how these stories transmit. Through generations where maybe something my grandfather went through is affecting the script I have right now. I don't even know what a story was, but I can still feel the effects, even if I'm not putting my finger on it.

Well, and then so being able to now as I talk to my kids or my colleagues and close people to me, just them knowing from a vulnerable standpoint what I was raised under as the son of two immigrants, so that they have a better contextual understanding of, oh, okay, this is what Jesse's. Here's his barriers and how do we help him, [00:24:00] you know, move forward.

But it started with the US American kid to decide, okay, how do we change this? Where, when the immigrant parents or the grandparents, I mean, I have still a little understanding of what my grandparents went through, with the exception of having a US citizen grandmother that was born in California where they were told to mass the port.

They're in the 1950s. The issues going on with people coming back from Korea and World War ii, and they wanted those low skilled jobs back that the US government had in place with the Brutto program, with the Mexican government and the US government. And they had said, Hey, you need to leave California and go back to Mexico and.

My mother was explaining to me the story of the trauma of being of self deporting themselves from California back to Mexico. And then when my mother was born in Mexico, she, she told me the story. But those are the small stories that I was able to kind of carve out some of the [00:25:00] trauma that has unresolved, that has been passed down generationally because my grandfather, one used to go visit him in Mexico or grandparents across the board.

We didn't talk about it. You know, it was very faith ingrained. I mean, the one thing we did do is we just prayed a lot. We thought, you know this, pass it on to the Lord because we, I ain't telling you what happened to me. I'm gonna tell the Lord. Exactly. And it is just spiritual in the way they handle things.

Talk about the, it seems like there is alternately harmony intention states in our religious beliefs and expectations as it relates to mental health. 'cause there are times I. Where people will say, well, that's a spiritual problem and that's a religious problem. So it sort of, it becomes separate, but then there's times where it's like, well, my faith informs my mental health.

And then there's times where they're battling like, you know, yeah, what's the solution here? And there's different people trying to lay claim to the same range and say, this is your solution. No, this is your solution. So you all both have mentioned faith at times as that intersection. [00:26:00] How does faith intersect?

Maybe less personally and more collectively and the expectations we put on ourselves and that, you know, now we're talking about gender, we're talking about generation. Mm-hmm. And then we're talking about faith as alternately attention or harmony state, depending on the moment or who's talking to me.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So in the Hispanic community and you see it here in, in Tulsa where the priest and the Catholic community, the priest is the, basically the family therapist. Mm-hmm. When I was doing Hispanic outreach for the Tulsa Police Department, I knew the quickest way to build relationships for me was to go through the churches.

And as I built relationships with the pastors in these churches I saw it on how many men and women families that were going to their priests. To not just to deal with spiritual questions, but to deal with family therapy questions because they trusted that individual. Mm-hmm. It was a sanctuary, [00:27:00] as we all know it so well.

So these priests from all over the world, but here in Tulsa that could speak to languages were now intervening into these families to deal with whatever generational issue that they've been dealing with or, or raising an American child. So I saw it that they, they needed not only kind of like a police officer where you, they had some training on the mental health side, but they weren't therapists.

Mm-hmm. That's not what they were doing. Well on the spiritual side. You saw Hispanic Spanish speaking priests now really needing to lean in on psychology and therapy because they were indirectly becoming families go-to, to deal with their stuff. Yeah. Because they are taught that it's a safe space, it's a sanctuary, and all, by the way, nobody's going to talk about your stuff 'cause it's protected.

Mm-hmm. Because as a family, we can come as the nucleus and deal with it, but we ain't gonna talk about it in a minute. We leave this room and we know that the priests ain't gonna talk about it either. Mm-hmm. Can I slot in, can I [00:28:00] switch to schools for a second? Mm-hmm. Because I'm hearing him talking about the pressure on priests and clergy.

Mm-hmm. And I'm thinking, I've seen so many statistics about the pressure that teachers can feel to be they're, they're the most trusted person in someone's life and they might be the first one to know or detect something. And when I'm thinking about young men and the expectations on them. Talk to me about the schools and the pressure within the schools, as well as how the educators are part of that continuum when it comes to changing the scripts.

Whew. I know, I know. Our teachers have really, I mean, this year alone, our teachers have been really, have really been struggling with the behaviors and different things in the classroom. But I think it goes back to, you know, services that, that can be provided there, training or professional development for teachers.

But the biggest thing is that the teachers are doing more of is building those trusts with those students. There's a situation in one of our schools that, that dealt with [00:29:00] the African American kid, and the teacher was, the teacher was Caucasian. And so just based upon the training that she had, that she received, that she was able to, Hey, I may not be the same color as you, but I'm, I understand what you're going through based upon the training.

You see teachers, like there's a pri, the principal from McClain was actually in his community. You know, Hey, I'm here, I'm here for you. What do, what do you need? You go to my school, you're my kids. Like, we're, I'm here for you. So just continuing to build that, build that trust and just continue that education.

I think that's been the biggest thing. But yeah, our kid, our kids are really struggling and just our teachers being able to understand and try to relate to the struggles that they're going through in the schools. I, I worry somewhat, and I know we're probably straying a little bit from the men's mental health angle, but I do worry that, you know, COVID started a exodus of teachers and educators because it's just too much.

Everybody's mad at them. Everybody's expecting them to solve everything. The kid's overwhelmed, and I feel like it became a focal [00:30:00] point. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I sort of worry about is, are we ever going to be able to stabilize the amount of supports that teachers need? And are people gonna keep entering the field?

Are we in some sort of crisis point already with the pressure on teachers and educators? As it relates to mental health and supporting? I, I think so. For sure. Like you said, COVID kind of ramped that up because, you know, they were trying to teach kids through a computer screen, and so I, I think yes, for sure we are in a crisis with our, with our teachers because there's outside pressure, whether it's from self politicized too.

Yes. Political, political standpoint. Like they want to do what's best for their kids, but they have to, oh, well I have to teach you about standardized testing even though you don't know how to read, but I still have to pass you, or we're gonna have to, you know, whatever's happening in Oklahoma, remade change the curriculum.

We're have to teach in the classroom, so they have all these outside pressures on top of, they're not compensated enough, so they have to worry about their own stress going outside. Like if they're, if you're a single parent as a teacher and [00:31:00] you're getting paid $50,000 a year. Like you're, you're dealing with that stress on top of dealing with, you know, the trauma that these kids are built, bringing to school.

That's what I was gonna say. They know what those kids are going through. Yes. They see it on their face. Yes. And they hear the stories. Yes. You know, because these kids, these kids are already coming in with circumstances. Like, I made a, I didn't even get to have breakfast, or I don't even, I'm wearing the same outfit every single day.

Or I saw my dad do something to my mom or my dad is whatever. All these things that these kids are dealing with, the teachers are taking that on as well. So they're like, you're not paying me enough. You're not giving me the support I need in the classroom. You're not giving me the training and the education to, to kind of deal with these issues.

So why I can go work somewhere else And if they leave the field, they're never coming back. They're never coming back. In my opinion. Yeah. For me. Having a third grade teacher who spotted food insecurity, Mrs. Bogart identifying that I wasn't eating and there was something going on at home without trying to solve all the issues that were going on at home, but she realized this kid needs some food.

Wow. A fifth [00:32:00] grade teacher who saw some That was your, one of your teachers? That was one of my teachers, Mrs. Bogart and then my fifth grade teacher. And I always say these teachers out loud because I want their existence to continue to go on even though they've passed on. But Mrs. Odell, who bought me books that she saw the struggles in my reading because of, again, not having any help at home.

But this is that stress that kids even now carry into the classroom. And from a bilingual, bicultural perspective, you have educators that are doing the best they can today. And now you're asking educators. In the classroom to deal with not only people that unresolved issues, but then also have a language barrier on top of that.

Mm-hmm. Which just adds to that extra stress. And I mean, you have to give it to educators and God bless them. 'cause every single day, this is why they do what they do. Mm-hmm. But they also become ad hoc social workers and looking for ways to find resources for these kids to survive just within their own existence in this [00:33:00] country, in the state, and in their own families.

I have no idea if we're on Misconception 72 now, Chris, or what. So where, where are we at and where do you wanna go with, well, from here I really, the, this entire conversation attests to the importance of role models in helping men grow and mature and become truly strong, not strong in the way that we see on.

TV or in movies, but truly strong. And that's what I hear. That's what I'm hearing in all of these stories. And I'm just, I'll go off script a little bit too, and I don't wanna get too personal with you all. But I'm curious about the role of siblings and, and birth order. Like if you are the eldest sibling, is the expectation different than if you're the youngest and if you're a male and you have a sister, you have a, you know, a female sibling as opposed to a male sibling, a brother?

You know, our expectation's different there. Is this something that impacts us as, you know, as men and growing and maturing and our mental health? [00:34:00] Go ahead, sir. So I'm a, I have a brother and a sister, but I'm the baby, so Okay. Know, I get, I get that advantage 'cause I All right. Was, I was spoiled. Oh, it's advantages.

It, yeah, it was, it was a definitely advantage of being the baby because at that point my mom was tired and she was like, I, I got away with everything. But my sister, she, she was tough. You know, I'm gonna say nice things about 'em just in case they listen to us. But my, my sister, my sister was tough on me, but, and my brother was tough on me as well, and I think that kind of helped shaped how I was, because I was the youngest.

But I'm always been like, observe, I, I just sit back and watch things and just sit back and watch how they navigated things. And me being the baby rally was really of advantage because I got everything, but also because I got to watch how they grew up and how they navigated things as well. Yeah. So I'm the oldest of three boys.

Okay. And you are basically the, the, we used to say in the police world, the one that goes through the door and gets shot because you're the first that's trying to figure things out mm-hmm. In life. And I it, even when I was [00:35:00] doing mentoring for families in, when the Tulsa Police Department had often talk about what does it look like to be first generation American to go to college.

Mm-hmm. And I would lean on the when I was given presentations to high school kids, I would explain to like, how many of you are the oldest in your family? And quite a few would raise their hand. And I said, are you considering going to college? Because Tulsa police required a bachelor's degree. So this was something that we often talk about.

What does it look like to be the first in your family to go get an education? Mm-hmm. And I would tell them that if you are able to be successful in navigating higher education. Your siblings are watching you and you know, the parents don't know what it looks like to be the first to go to college, but the oldest does it and pulls it off.

And I was raised alongside you and you showed an example that it can, because it is a nebulous journey for many. And what does it look like to go on to [00:36:00] an institution Stillwater Norman, wherever, Taliqua. But if you pull it off, then, then the odds of your siblings following you are very high.

Mm-hmm. So you change the trajectory of your family's generation which is a lot of pressure for a lot of 'em, but many do show up and say, go on to school. And then you have many that follow behind them because they set the standard of what does it look like to go after a on-ramp to middle class life.

This is also fascinating, and I'm also thinking. And some of those firstborns are sacrificing, working, doing. Yes. So that then what happens is they have foregone an opportunity Absolutely. That then their siblings step into. And so there's, it seems like there would be a sacrifice possibility there too.

And I so many different directions that we could go with this, but one of the things I just keep coming back and, and picking out the thread in my head, so I'm just gonna say it out here, is how much should we as a society and as a mental health field, [00:37:00] be like, okay, get to therapy, get to the specialist versus, I mean, it's probably both end, but how do we equip society?

'cause like, hey, you've got teachers, you've got clergy, you've got siblings, you've got all these other people that if they were more conversant, they could lean in and be like, Hey Anthony, you're going through something, aren't you? And there's that. So like, how much effort should we be putting into.

Societally getting everybody better equipped for being mental health supportive, mental health equipped, Hey, you know, males, you don't have to participate in every script if it's not helpful versus let's get you to the therapist to help you. I don't know that there's a right answer to this, but, but I do wonder how we go with leaning into what we do to equip society versus to help when there's a problem.

Really just having the vulnerability to ask for help. It may not be a therapist, it may just be a mentor, but looking for those, you know, the resiliency for me is looking for the person that's gonna help you get to that next chapter, through that next chapter, whatever [00:38:00] that chapter is, whether it's dealing with some sort of trauma within the family or just looking for prosperity and what does that resilience look like.

Yeah. And the vulnerability, because you're not taught to ask strangers or building those relationships with people that weren't part of your ethos when then you know your community, but. Knowing that I need help to get to whatever prosperity looks like for them. And, and that it requires it's both.

And you know, to your, to your question, Adam, and whether it's looking for somebody who does it for a living to help you with it, or just looking for somebody that you trust that you can ask, Hey, how did you, how were you successful in this arena or dealing with these emotions? Because so many of us, they want to give to that next generation.

They want to help that male, you know, to figure it out, to get 'em past their divorce, to get 'em past whatever it is that they're working through, because, and that's just as at our very core. It's to help, you know, it's, it's what I tell my team we're humanity [00:39:00] warriors. So smile. 'cause we're humanity warriors now what does that look like?

What does that look like? To live it out? That means that if a man comes to you and says, man, I'm struggling with something. All right, I may not have the answer. But darn it, if we're not gonna figure out who can I get you to, to at least get you to that next chapter, to do the things, to be a better parent, to be just a better human being all the way around.

But it's continuing to, to tell society that it's okay to ask for help. And it may be different forms of help, mentorship professional help, but it's continuing to have that resiliency and say, not everybody has the answers, but Chris may have the answer. Adam May have a better answer, Anthony May have a better answer.

You know, I may be able to guide you in a different direction, but you being able to be vulnerable and it's okay to continue to look for it. Hmm. I wanna dive in probably even a little bit deeper here. I'm sitting here and we're having a great conversation about mental, mental health, and we're talking about the scripts.

We're talking about the, all the different factors. And I think that we [00:40:00] would broadly perceive that maybe society has at least got the needle pointed in the right direction on reducing pressures and so on. And at the same time, what's running through my mind is. Depression and suicide risk is actually so through the roof with males, especially young men and adolescents right now.

And that's before you factor in things like lgbtq plus factors, race factors, other things that can be sort of in society puts you even more out on an island. And I really am, as we're having all these conversations, I'm battling the sense that as a society, I wanna say we're progressing. And yet these statistics are really making me question my assumption that we've got the needle pointed in the right direction.

'cause how can we be societally figuring this out at the same time that we are out of control, spinning in a direction with a whole [00:41:00] gender mm-hmm. On mental health. Yeah. When I'm, you know, scrolling through TikTok or just looking at certain videos. I, I feel like sometimes the message about mental health and talking could be out there a little bit too much because for some people who's already experiencing loneliness or already experiencing those symptoms and you see something pop up, it may just trigger that even more because every, every other clip you may see, especially during Men's Mental Health Month, or you know, any kind of awareness month that's related to mental health, it's very prevalent on social media and, and it's in short clips.

And so these people are seeing things or people are seeing things. So I think they're hearing that there isn't hope or they're hearing that they are in trouble or Exactly. So they're, they're just hearing these things. And so it's good that it's changing because we are putting that message out there.

You are seeing more people of color talk about mental health, like that it's out there, but then there's those messages out there, like you said, there is no hope. Or, you know, they see something, they're like, and it triggers something inside of them. They're like, oh man, I'm dealing with this. So let me just, so not just being [00:42:00] facetious, we need to make sure that any short we put out doesn't just have that sobering statistic, but also the statement that says.

And remember, and then it's a message of hope. Absolutely. You don't have to be a statistic, that sort of a thing. Absolutely. So that we're never pairing it just with look how bad and dire it is. Absolutely. That is so imperative because you are, you're getting both messages. Like we understand, we, you're recognizing that it's there, but here's the solution.

Whether it's like, you know, you have a mentor, you, you go see a therapist or you go see your pastor, but it's also continue to make those relationships in the community with those individuals that, Hey, as a pastor I can only do so much. Let me refer you to whoever to be able to make sure you, you know, you continue this journey where you can do both simultaneously.

Hmm. It's too bad that that disclaimer is not included. That, that you just said in every social media message out there. Like, Hey, I'm just social media. Mm-hmm. You need to talk to somebody who, you know, to an expert for those young men who are dealing with things, or I mean, anybody who are dealing with those things, that's, that's all they [00:43:00] hinge on because that takes them from reality.

Mm-hmm. People think social media is reality. Mm-hmm. And that, that is not the case. But for them, that's all they see. So if they see that, that's gospel for them. Yeah. So we're like, oh yeah, this, this, this is it. This is it. So I feel like, like you said, having that two part message where there, you know, this is the truth, but this is, this is how we, this is how we fix it.

There was some study again, I heard in school sometime where what was one of the most determinative factors about a child that didn't know their parents is what they were told about their parent. Because people tend to think their destiny is what's happened before them. And I do think that it kind of speaks to on social media and it's been, they've found it in studies of people with a traumatic brain injury.

If you tell a whole group of people, you're likely hopeless and your depression's only gonna get worse. Suicide shoots up. Mm. And it's not always about the head injury, it's that we've told you your life is basically over now. Mm-hmm. And that [00:44:00] message starts to be the weight and they don't see it beyond that.

So I think it's a really important point. That as important as what's true is what people believe to be true and what the scripts are and what we tell them is that hope piece or that your destiny is not what your parents or grandparents did or lived through. That has to be part of that pivot. Because we do tend to, and they've even done studies with teachers, they, if they point out a kid and they say that kid's gifted, that kid's not, and they have the exact same iq, guess what?

The one that was gifted starts doing better because the teacher is silently and not even thinking about it. Investing more in the gifted kid. Mm-hmm. And so what we believe to be true becomes such determinative factor on what. Comes true. Mm-hmm. Well, and so much of it is it in, in building that resiliency in teenagers and, and, and teenage boys is showing them that you can't survive it, whatever it is that you're dealing with, and using the narrative, continuing narrative of where you started out doesn't mean that's where you're gonna [00:45:00] end up.

So whether you're trying to get that impoverished child, that teenage boy into a middle class on ramp, as we always talk about is, is standing before them. And that's something that I've always done and being vulnerable and telling my story so that they like see, oh wait, I can come from. Section eight housing or a trailer park and, and have a middle class or upper middle class life.

Yes you can. It's gonna take some work, but you can, and it's gonna take you asking for help to get there because you don't have that perfect family structure to help you scale up, you know, on your own. So you need to go out and ask for that help, but it's continuing to drive that narrative to your point of you can, there is hope and you can make it.

But it's reminding them that, man, you're 17 or you're 27. You gotta a long way to go, but you gotta keep striving. You gotta keep working towards that one. I wonder too, like there's a growing mountain of literature [00:46:00] about the effect of what, you know, used to be called helicopter parenting now gets called bulldozer parenting helicopter, as I swoop in and keep you from having to go through something.

Bulldozer is, no, no, no. Let me just get it outta the way so you don't even have to know it was there. There's such a multi-generational body of literature now of the impact on workforce and happiness and depression, and I do wonder if that's part of the discussion too, is we, we really zero in on males and what we tell them about imperiousness, but I also think there has to be some element of that.

We as a society are also at times. Overprotecting people from struggle. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And if they never learned to struggle, they never learned that they can work through it. Mm-hmm. And they never find their strength. And so I think that has to be part of the discussion too, is not just, Hey Anthony, you can talk about your feelings, but also, Hey Anthony, you can work through this.

And the struggle is not a thing to be avoided rescued from bulldozed. Like, that has to be part of this equation too, doesn't it? Like it's okay to struggle. We can struggle and we can work through stuff as you should, because that's [00:47:00] life. Yeah. I mean, it, it's, you know, we talk about often in my own family I, I, I tell my kids, you know, fall six and then they, you know, back to me, rise seven.

Why? Because it's about getting knocked down and getting back up because this is what's gonna happen. You're gonna take punches. That's just life. Now what does it look like to stand back up and not to have all the answers when you stand back up, it's just stand back up. Mm-hmm. To your point, you know, it about helicopter parenting or, or the, those parents that bulldoze everything to the ground.

It's getting the, the, the teenage boy, getting the, the kids ready for the road and not, not redoing the road for them. And that ultimately 'cause when they show up and mom and dad or whoever's not there to help them, and then they realize, wow, the road is a lot tougher. This life is a lot tougher than I was ready for.

Many of 'em don't know what to do from that point on. And it, it is funny that you say that. It had me, it had me thinking about how, you know, we've talked about how we've grown up in those generational things, but to your [00:48:00] point, what you just said, you just got to, it's gonna happen. You have to deal with it.

Like you struggle is going to happen. So I think that's, that blessing with it comes to like, growing up with that, that tough mindset where's like, it's, you're gonna struggle, but it's about. How are you gonna get up and if you, if you need the help, get it. So it's just, it's just interesting that you, you know, it's, you still like, you're gonna fall, you're gonna struggle, but how do we get through that?

And I think knowing the difference as a parent, it's easy for me to say, oh, don't be a helicopter. And until my child is crying. Yeah. Right. And when my child is crying, oh my gosh, what can I see? And I think that that's where, again, if I have too much weight on my shoulders, I can either end up with muscles or a torn shoulder.

Mm-hmm. And it depends on how much and how, how much I could sustain. Mm-hmm. And what was my measured response. And I feel like that's one of those areas like we need to support people and children that they feel they can work through a thing while also not decimating them with struggles. Mm-hmm. And that's easier said than done, but it does feel to me like we've maybe gone too [00:49:00] far as a society with, we counteract.

The trauma happening by then saying, let's go the other way and make sure it never even touches something that would be hard and would struggle. And again, it sounds conceptually easy, but when your child's crying Oh wow. Or when the student in your class is crying or overwhelmed, it's a much harder distinction of what should I let them work through versus not.

Kids are talking mean to them. Should I go talk to that teacher and be like, how are they talking mean? Or should I be talking to my kid about strategies for dealing and accepting that people are gonna have their perspectives? That's really, really hard to know what to do in that moment. The best coaches are the ones that build you in the way that things are gonna get hard.

We're just going to learn how to do hard better. That ultimately is what you're looking for in a therapist and a mentor at least to help you with that resiliency. Man, it's, you know, we used to say the military embrace the suck and you're just gonna have to get through it. But what are the lessons as you go through that sock that [00:50:00] you can build those layers to help you get to that next chapter in your life towards that success you're looking for?

Maybe part of the truth with men's mental health and with mental health is that we do want to be stronger, and that this notion of being impervious. It's a brittle sort of imperiousness if nothing ever touches me. But a healthy body has muscle and is flexible and adaptable, you know, and that, that's part of being healthy.

And I wonder if mental health wise, there is a truth to, as men, we need to be stronger. We just need to redefine strength. And strength is not merely I'm impervious and I'm a brick. It might be I'm flexible, I'm adaptable, I can respond. But at that point, we're not saying to a man, don't be strong, because that's a really hard script to undo.

Yeah. But what we are saying is let, let's change the frame on strength so that it includes more adaptability, more strength, more responsiveness, because that actually is [00:51:00] stronger vulnerability to add to that. Yeah. That showing strength is being vulnerable, letting the people you love, the people you care about, realize you don't got it all figured out and you're trying to, you know, move forward and, and, and being a good.

Husband, a good parent, a, a good teacher if you will, but at the same time, they see as like, okay, well maybe dad, dad's not perfect. He's not Superman, but he's looking, you know, he is constantly looking for how to stand up a teenage boy or how to help a teenage and build and stand up a teenage girls.

So it, it's all those things, but it's also showing that vulnerability that, I mean, I don't have all the answers, so help me. How can we go together to solving whatever it is. As we're making it the next generation, you're your Superman and Clark Kent. You're, you know, you're both of 'em where you are.

Yes. You're, you're extremely impenetrable. Unless it's, you know, what is, what is Superman what is his kryptonite? Yeah. But then you're also Clark Kent. You know's the, your normal [00:52:00] Yeah. You're the normal human. Those normal feelings, you know, him and Louis Lane, you know, going, trying to navigate that relationship.

So I think you ha like you said, you have to be both. Mm-hmm. You know, it has to be both. And, and again, we're I love that analogy and that thought. 'cause it, it invokes so much adaptability. Mm-hmm. We have to be adaptable, especially when we're probably not gonna go on a hunt for a wooly mammoth anytime soon.

Those days are gone. So how we adapt now has gotta be different. It's just, we're not going back to that. No. Well I think another misconception is that if, if a man is in a happy marriage. He's good. Hmm. You know, there, he mentally he's on top of things. He's sound, he's happy, he's content. As long as you're in that good marriage, you know, there's that saying, you know, if mom's happy, everybody's happy, happy wife, happy life.

Yeah. And, and while that obviously, you know, having a happy spouse, I mean, that's very enriching and, and it does bring, you know peace to our lives and happiness. But is that the end all, be [00:53:00] all of, of, of that notion? I'm not, I'm not married, but being in, being in a relationship in general, I feel like that's great that you're in a happy relationship, but sometimes again, your wife may not know, or your significant other may not know what you're, what you're battling mm-hmm.

With yourself. Like you're navigating life with your wife and everything's good, but. You're like, man, you know, I got my hours cut at work. Or How am I, how am I gonna pay the mortgage this month? Or all these, all these external things that us as men, as providers that we're supposed to take care of. And so while your, your marriage may be happy because you're taking, you're sucking it up and you're taking care of it, you're still dealing with those battles.

So that's, that's my 2 cents. Mm-hmm. The, I've seen a lot of research that says that one of the gr the, the single greatest decision you're gonna make is who you're gonna spend your life with as far as a partner. Mm-hmm. Because I've seen it time and time again with friends who are dealing with divorce or family members that are dealing [00:54:00] with, that are in bad marriages, and you not having that safety net, if you will, to help you, not only help you with whatever you're dealing with but then also help you grow and, and that person that you want to be.

And it's so just paramount to find that person that both understands your background. And that's one of the things that I could say is being vulnerable to that partner and like, what are you carrying before you come into that relationship so that that partner knows, okay, this is what I'm signing up for.

How do we vet the problem? And then sometimes it's just talking through it that like gets you to that point. It's like, all right, this is not the end of the world. We will figure it out. We'll, we'll, we'll move forward. But it is so important that you do find that partner in life that you can walk life through, because I mean, how lonely would it be to not have that person that you're with at home that you can't have these, these honest conversations [00:55:00] about what you're dealing with?

Or maybe there's some skeletons that your family were hiding that you discovered. And then you can't go talk to your spouse about, or your partner about because you're worried how they're gonna deal with it. And so being very vulnerable and very upfront in, in what you're dealing with as you are learning each other, because this way it's, it's a beautiful thing to go into a unity where he or she decides, all right, I'm still picking you, even though you're dealing with all these Hispanic issues.

Yeah. All these other things that are layered on top of that, but I'm, I'm gonna go alongside you. We're gonna figure out together, and I think this is a great example where this is an and not a but, and whether you spend your life with someone or don't or start to and lose or whatever it is, the scripts are helpful until they're not.

Mm-hmm. Because. No human. I have never successfully been fully whatever, any human needs and no human has ever [00:56:00] successfully been everything I need because it's not realistic. Yeah. For someone to be everything to someone else. Right. And I think that's part of the pressure is like whether I have a partner or not.

If I don't have a partner, I should, my life isn't incomplete. If I do, then how come they're not fully fulfilling me? Yeah. And how come I'm not fully fulfilling them? Mm-hmm. Or I think I'm protecting them and I find out that, well, guess what? Their cortisol levels are still just as stressed out. 'cause if they know I'm stressed, it doesn't matter if I'm protecting them or I want them to protect me.

Mm-hmm. And then they're not there. And I, I feel like that's one of the challenges, and maybe even myths of partners mm-hmm. Is that partners are those sort of perfect supports to us. When in fact, it's probably more like hoping that we're both lifting the table at the same time. Yeah. You know, like there's just so many times in which a partner is not a replacement.

For anything. A partner is just that. They're a partner. The scripts about partners and the pressure we've put on ourselves and on our partners, it's a huge part of this story and it's finding that person that knows they, they can't help you with whatever issue you're dealing with, but [00:57:00] they're willing to say, I, you know, let's go find you that therapist.

Yeah. Because I don't have the answers, but I appreciate you being vulnerable to share with me what you're dealing with and let's go find you that professional help being adequate together. Absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, again, it just starting out with that vulnerability, it's like, look, this is what I'm dealing with.

And like, okay, well then let's figure it out. And that person, and sometimes they need to be your champion, it's like, ah, you. Are not calling the, the, the therapist. So I'm gonna call the therapist and we're gonna set this up. But it is, if you, if you're looking at a spouse, a partner for life, that you, that's what you're looking at.

I take you as broken as you are and for the rest of the way, but doesn't mean that I'm gonna have all the answers, but we're gonna seek those answers together. Yeah. We have talked about a number of resources mentors, family and friends our, you know, our spiritual leaders therapy. And as we wrap [00:58:00] up here, I'm curious if any of you have.

Any additional resources that you think that you have found to be particularly helpful in men's mental health? Oh, well, thank you for asking the question, Chris. I would say the Tulsa area, United Way, we have a system in place. It's called 2 1 1 that you can call starting the dialogue on what it is that you're dealing with.

And it's in both languages, so, Hmm. Well, the Hispanic community, if you're, if you're needing somebody to speak Spanish to, you can call 2 1 1 and ask. For help in whatever you're needing help with. It is a resource that we provide at Tulsa Air United Way, and it's something that if, if you can't get it at home, and maybe you are, maybe you're a teenage boy who's looking for some kind of assistance that you maybe don't want your parents to know, well then call 2 1 1 and just say, Hey, I'm looking for something in this component of therapy.

Mm-hmm. But it's there. So it's there every day, 24 hours a day and we'll help you find whatever it is that you need on the resource [00:59:00] side. Yeah, that sounds good. Gentlemen. You know, the, the I don't know that I have more resources other than to think as I'm sitting here enjoying every bit of this discussion, my biggest takeaway is.

Finding ways of accepting and leaning into the, I'm going back to the inadequacy, to the weakness that things aren't there. Relieving the pressure on ourselves I think is an important thing that male or female child or adult. Mm-hmm. That just feels like some of it is, you know, let's, let's talk about something we haven't even hardly talked about, like grief, the ways in which we have taught people that there's a right and wrong way to grieve has basically added guilt and pressure onto a thing that already really sucks.

Yeah. Yep. And like that's, that to me is like, so much of this is about the pressure we put on ourselves, the shoulds and the must that start to be then the mechanism of torture instead of accepting that we struggle and accepting the flexibility of life coming our way and bringing us pressure. Yeah.

That's the problem with the scripts that you were just talking [01:00:00] about a little bit earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Just to kind of piggyback off what Adam said, I think not really resource, but just making sure that you have those. Individuals in your life that you can have these honest conversations with? You know, 'cause I have, I have friends and family, well, mainly my friends that I can have these honest conversations with.

Like, I can text, I can, you know, I call my friends other night, like, you know what I'm having one of those days. Mm-hmm. I just, I just need you to sit here and just listen to me rent while I'm driving home. And, you know, he did that and like, I was perfectly fine. Yeah. And he's the same for me. So just having those, and he probably felt fed too, because when someone calls you and needs you mm-hmm.

You feel better. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And just being there, being there for that person and having, you know, people that are there for you, I think, you know, just finding those people that you can be vulnerable is really, really important. Yeah. Well, thanks guys for being here. Talk about this extremely important topic.

If you know anyone listening to the podcast is experiencing issues, particularly with men's mental health, we've brought up some resources today. [01:01:00] The Tora United Way Family and Children's Services. Whatever, wherever it is, whether it's at these two places or somewhere else. If you are facing turmoil right now, seek, seek some help.

Whether it's from, whether it's professionally or friends or family or pastors. I think that's one of the biggest things that we've kind of identified today is that, there's nothing wrong with seeking help. There's nothing wrong with a man seeking help. As a matter of fact probably just contributes to that strength that, that people perceive men as having.

So thanks again all of you for being here today and hope to, hope to have you on again soon. Thank you. Thank you.

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