The Mental Health Cost of Screen Time, Doomscrolling, and Dopamine

In this episode of OK State of Mind, a Family & Children’s Services podcast, the conversation turns toward a modern influence that touches every age group: screen time and digital content. Jessica Wrest, Pediatric Nurse Practitioner, joins Dr. Stevan Lahr, and Rachel Roberts, Public & Government Affairs Manager at Family & Children’s Services, to unpack how constant access to devices is shaping mental health, behavior, and emotional well-being. Together, they explore how screens are no longer just tools—but environments that influence how we think, feel, and cope.

The group examines how screen use triggers chemical responses in the brain, reinforcing habits that can mirror addictive patterns. They discuss how early exposure impacts children’s ability to self-soothe, regulate emotions, and build attention spans, while also acknowledging that adults face similar challenges through “doom scrolling,” sleep disruption, and reduced real-world connection. Rather than focusing solely on limiting screen time, the conversation shifts toward understanding the quality of content, the importance of balance, and how digital habits can either support or undermine mental health.

The episode also highlights practical, real-world strategies for navigating a screen-saturated culture. From creating intentional boundaries and improving sleep hygiene to modeling healthy behavior for children, the team emphasizes that change doesn’t require eliminating technology—it requires awareness and small, consistent adjustments. The conversation lands on a hopeful takeaway: when individuals and families become more intentional with their digital habits, they can protect their mental health while still benefiting from the connected world around them.

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Transcript

Dr. Lahr: [00:00:00] Everything we do is chemistry. Mm-hmm. Okay. So everything we think, feel, believe, do is a chemical reaction in our brain. And so interacting with any device, um, is no different. It's causing a chemical change in our brain. That's why we're responding with social media. What we have found and research is ongoing, right?

This is a new technology and so our recommendations are constantly evolving as we discover more. So you'll see countries around the world are starting to ban social media. Mm-hmm. Below a certain age, our brains are actively developing until about the mid twenties, 

Jessica Wrest: and once you hit that 10-year-old range, that's when they come to my office and I'm getting them and they're calling Copes and the police because you take their game away.

And they are frustrated because that's all they know is 

Dr. Lahr: mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: Self-soothing through the game and then. You take it away and they're angry. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. Not understanding that we've kind of developed [00:01:00] this. 

Jessica Wrest: That's what 

Dr. Lahr: they know. Really. Kind of an addiction. 

Jessica Wrest: Yeah. 

Dr. Lahr: To the game. Exactly. Exactly. For when things go wrong.

Mm-hmm. If I feel good, I play a game. If I don't feel good, I play a game. And where else do we hear that? You, it's kind of when you're talking about substance use disorder, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're like, I had a great day, so I'm gonna go have some party substances. And then when you're really down, you go and you use to feel better.

Chris Posey: A 2025 study examining associations between screen time use and health outcomes. Among us teenagers showed teenagers with higher non-school work screen use were more likely to experience a series of adverse health outcomes, including infrequent physical activity being infrequently well rested and having an irregular sleep routine among other concerns.

Today we'll take a look at some of the mental health impacts of screen use and device time on children, teens, and adults on okay, state of mind, a podcast of family and 

Jessica Wrest: [00:02:00] children's services. 

Chris Posey: Well, welcome today everyone. My name's Chris Posey. I'm the marketing Communications Director here at Family and Children's Services, and today we're gonna be talking about screen time, device time, and mental health.

So let's just start out by introducing our guests today. So we'll just start with you Jessica. What do you do here at Family and Children's Services? How long have you been here? Tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Jessica Wrest: I'm Jessica Rest. I am the pediatric nurse practitioner. I see all of the kids and manage their medications.

Chris Posey: Alright, thanks. And Dr. Law. 

Dr. Lahr: Hello. I am, uh, Dr. Lar. I'm a medical director here at Family and Children's Services. I've been here for 15 years and I oversee all of the adult and child psychiatry programs. 

Chris Posey: You've been here several times now. You're, you're almost like a co-host at this point. 

Dr. Lahr: I should be a co-host at this point.

Yeah. Really? 

Chris Posey: Alright. Alright, Rachel. 

Rachel Roberts: I'm Rachel [00:03:00] Roberts, public and government affairs manager here at FCS and I'm happy to be back. 

Chris Posey: Alright, well awesome. Happy that you're here. It's been a couple months since we've seen you, so glad you're back. So, like I said, we are gonna be talking about device time today, screen time today.

And I think an easy way to move into this topic is maybe to talk a little bit about. Our rules for ourselves or for our children if we have children. Anybody wanna share your, like your personal guidelines on how you manage your own screen time or how you help your kids manage their screen time? 

Dr. Lahr: Yeah, I think that's, uh, you know, a great question and we've had so many rules over the years, which I think is important whenever you're raising kids that they change over time, probably.

Mm-hmm. One rule is no devices at the dinner table unless you're on call and our children can't be on call, so therefore they, uh, actually don't get to have a device at the table then. Right now we're in a [00:04:00] no social media, so we none. Our children aren't allowed to have any Instagram, Facebook, anything like that.

In the past, when we've done social media, we've had some restrictions on there where. If you had the app, we had to have the app. So we had to be on the same platform. We have to follow the same people. Mm-hmm. You're not allowed to have conversations with people that we don't know on social media and social media phone, but we do not take inappropriate pictures and send them.

I mean, just very clear. So those are some of the rules that we have in our family. Social media and phone use. Mm-hmm. 

Chris Posey: And you said something about unless you're on call. It sounds to me like this is your rule too. 

Dr. Lahr: Yes, exactly. So my wife is also a physician. Mm-hmm. And so if she's on call or I'm on call, then of course our phone is on and near us so we can take those calls, but otherwise we leave them on the island or in a different room.

Chris Posey: Oh, that's good. And I like the [00:05:00] idea of kind of the, the evolving rules. Yeah. As your kids get older, uh, you know, things change. They do. Mm-hmm. So I think that's a, a nice way to be a adaptive and on top of what's going on in their lives. Anybody else? Screen rules, device time rules for yourself, 

Rachel Roberts: for your kids?

Well, I can speak for myself. I, I don't have children, but, um, and I think talking about being on call, it's kind of reminded me. I try to not be on my phone when I'm going to bed, when I'm unwinding. Mm-hmm. Because I think I've noticed in myself that that actually I do it to relax, but really it's like my brain is just wired from scrolling.

So that's one thing that I try to limit. Another thing that I've struggled with as far as work goes is I have all of the apps for work. So it could be a weekend, it could be late at night, and I see something online that I'd like to share for work. It's hard to. Cut that off. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I can relate with, you know, the being [00:06:00] on call.

I mean, a lot of our jobs are demanding and we like to keep up with current events and, and share that information. So I think for me, that's one challenge I have is turning it off when I'm not at work. 

Jessica Wrest: Mm-hmm. Or you hear an email come through, 

Rachel Roberts: right? Yeah. Yeah. Teams notification. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. You gotta force yourself not turning, turn those notifications off.

Yeah. 

Rachel Roberts: Yep. 

Chris Posey: That's a good tip. 

Jessica Wrest: Yeah. 

Chris Posey: Jessica, you have any tips for us? 

Jessica Wrest: Um, we were pretty strict at our house initially and then. As the kids got older, we kind of changed things around. I was really lucky my kids loved to play outside. Mm-hmm. So we didn't, our rules were never really strict, so we just kind of let things go.

But because I deal with kids and parents a lot, we talk about this a lot in my visits. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: So they are constantly asking me, you know, what do you do? What should I do? Social media, the phone, the tablet, all of it. It's a constant. Thing. Um, that causes a lot of issues with [00:07:00] kids and parents and kids get grounded and there's fights and kids get so upset when you take their phone.

Rachel Roberts: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like there are many, many copes calls, um, over kids getting grounded and taking their phone. And police have been called because. The parents took their phone and oh my gosh. It, it can be a big thing. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I'll give up mine next time, if you know. Right. Exactly. We start that rule here, like, if I get in trouble, you have to give up your phone.

That's a great 

Chris Posey: idea. 

Dr. Lahr: That'd be good. 

Chris Posey: Once you get that phone, like it's impossible to separate. I want them to have the phone so that I can text them and call them. Mm-hmm. Remain in touch with them and monitor and watch and all that stuff. Uh, but you can't get the phone without, you know, the social media.

I mean, you can, but the social media apps come quickly behind, very quickly, and all of a sudden it's just like, that's, that's what they do. Mm-hmm. My son, [00:08:00] he is a, he's a gamer. And this is his social life too, right? Like, he plays games and while he's playing games, he's communicating with his friends, which brought a really tough situation for us.

It's like. W well, we want him to have a social life. And I would play games with my friends when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. It just so happened we would play him, you know, at somebody's house in life or play kickball out in the street or whatever. And so it was tough to determine is, is this, is this just a new way kids play games?

Mm-hmm. And how much do you allow? So, 

Rachel Roberts: mm-hmm. When I think too. Phones now are computers. Mm-hmm. True. When I got my first phone, it was just a brick and mm-hmm. I couldn't access social media. The internet, I was playing snake or you know. Yeah. The games that came on the phone, solitaire and now, I mean, you're carrying around a computer, so I think that's.

It's different. Another challenge, you know, back then I had a [00:09:00] phone so that I could call my parents or my friends. Mm-hmm. And there were limits on that. And now it's 

Dr. Lahr: because they charged by the minute back then. 

Rachel Roberts: Right. Oh, and text. Oh, if you went over the text limit, that was a big deal. But I think the draw for kids to have a phone is more so about that.

You know, you're having, it's a computer, you can do what you want. You've got social media, you've got your games, you have all these, you have access to download. You know, millions of apps. So I think that's what's so different now, it's, it's less about, to me, it seems it's less about communicating with others.

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: On 

Rachel Roberts: the phone talking. Mm-hmm. And it's more about the digital, you know, posting, updates, all of that. So 

yeah. 

Dr. Lahr: Interaction. You know, I know we're gonna get to some other topics and, um, I think a practical piece of advice for phones that I follow, and I don't know if you've ever said this to your patients or not, but I've said it to mine where I don't think you should give phones as gifts to children or teenagers because as when you [00:10:00] give a gift, right?

That implies that that person. Controls that. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Know it is theirs. Mm-hmm. Right. And so we don't give ours as gifts, so it is, we have an age or some type of milestone you have to meet to get the phone. And then there's the discussion, right? Mm-hmm. Of how you're gonna to use this phone.

What, what, what could happen for you to get the phone removed, um, and how long that will. Last. And so having that open conversation with whatever age child, 'cause it's, it's different, right? Mm-hmm. So for some families, they really do need a phone. Younger, because they're in different households, they're in lots of activities, and then there's households that they don't, you don't really need to have that phone until later.

Mm-hmm. And so just having that open discussion, some rules, um, but I'm really against putting, uh, giving out phones as gifts for kids and teenagers. 'cause it's like, no, this is mine. Right? Mm-hmm. The last gift I got was mine. So it's [00:11:00] hard to make that distinction. Yeah. In my opinion. That's a 

Chris Posey: great thought.

That's a good 

Rachel Roberts: thought. 

Chris Posey: I needed you about six years 

Rachel Roberts: ago. 

Chris Posey: Okay. Um, well let's talk about some of the, the impacts of device usage and screen time. And I wanna go back to something that Rachel was saying a little bit earlier about. Uh, you, the words you used were, you were wired from scrolling. Mm-hmm. And, and so, and this is something that impacts children and adults.

Mm-hmm. Can you all talk a little bit about that, you know, the, that wired feeling, especially like you're sitting in bed and you're getting ready to go to sleep. But you're just scrolling through TikTok or whatever. Can you talk a little bit about that? Doom 

Rachel Roberts: scrolling? 

Dr. Lahr: Doom scrolling. Oh gosh. Something I say all the time is that everything we do is chemistry.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So everything we think, feel, believe. Do is a chemical reaction in our brain. And so interacting with any device, um, is no different. It's causing a [00:12:00] chemical change in our brain. That's why we're responding. And so one of the somewhat unique things about, we'll just talk about social media, is that it.

Hits the brain the same way that gambling does. Hmm. There's something called intermittent reward, which is why gambling gets so addictive. 'cause you have these random bursts of dopamine that activates that part of the brain. Well, social media does the same, right? Sometimes you'll scroll through and a video's gonna make you laugh and you're gonna get that dopamine hit.

Other times you're just, there's, you have no connection, and then you get a video that. It makes you extremely angry, and that's a dopamine hit. And so it's designed to keep you in that app. Just like if you're at a slot machine, those lights and those noises are designed to keep you at that slot machine.

Mm, mm-hmm. So, um, you are doing chemical change or having chemical change anytime you're on a device. And so with social media. What we have found and research is [00:13:00] ongoing, right? This is a new technology and so our recommendations are constantly evolving as we discover war. So you'll see countries around the world are starting to ban social media.

Mm-hmm. Below a certain age, our brains are. Actively developing until about the mid twenties, especially in that pre-teen, um, to teenage, uh, time span. There is a lot of chemical action going on in the brain. And so you set yourself up for a lot of, um, like poor coping mechanisms, poor social interaction.

Mm-hmm. Just by that chemical change in the brain. And then. Earlier, so we'll say birth to whatever, 10. Mm-hmm. Um, if you are constantly using a screen, then you are using that to soothe. So you'll see it all the time. I've done it myself as a parent, right? The child is screaming, they're outta control. You have had a day and you're like, [00:14:00] please, here's your screen, right?

Mm-hmm. Uh, occasionally. Not a big deal. If you're routinely doing that, then you are training the brain to have soothing from a device and not self-soothe. Mm-hmm. Which is extremely important, especially in that kind of infant to, you know, 10-year-old range. And that's all chemical changes in the brain and it.

It's really hard to overcome those, those patterns mm-hmm. Once we have them set. So it's gonna be painful, especially as a parent, uh, especially in those, uh, early ages. But the more that we can give those kind of healthy mechanisms of self-soothing and not turn to a screen, it's gonna set us up for more success.

Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: And then once you hit that 10-year-old range, that's when they come to my office and I'm getting them and they're calling Copes and the police because. You take their game away and they're frustrated because that's all they know is. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: Self-soothing through the game [00:15:00] and then. You take it away and they're angry.

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: So 

Dr. Lahr: they don't have a backup plan. They don't have that. Right. Exactly. And the parents just see it as well. It's a game. I took it, I had my games taken away. As a kid, of course, you have to have consequences. Right. Not understanding that we've kind of developed this. 

Chris Posey: That's 

Dr. Lahr: really kind of an addiction.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. To the game. Exactly. For when things go wrong. Mm-hmm. If I feel good, I play a game. If I don't feel good. I play a game and where else do we hear that? Right? You know, it's kind of when you're talking about substance use disorder, right? Mm-hmm. You're like, I had a great day, so I'm gonna go have some party substances.

And then when you're really down, you go and you use to feel better. So it's a very similar dynamic. A lot 

Jessica Wrest: of the games are that they're playing are violent games anyway, so they're kind of acting what they're seeing in the game. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: So you take that away and then they. Are angry and acting out violently.

Chris Posey: I think too, like an analogy [00:16:00] of a pacifier, you know, that, that is given to, to soothe to babies. Mm-hmm. But at some point we, you take it away, pacifier away. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But with devices, like, we're not gonna take their phone away when they're, you know, three or four, whatever age, you know, as they, as they get older.

And so as you're saying, they, they just never learned to self-soothe, um, because that crutch is mm-hmm. Always with them, that pacifier is always with them. Are there collateral effects of, of screen time? Um, we talked some about brain development and a little bit about sleep. What kind of pin action is there from, uh, from excessive screen time or just a lot of screen time?

Dr. Lahr: Yeah. You know, I, I want to take maybe just a, a little step back and, you know, we've used the term screen time mm-hmm. A lot. Mm-hmm. 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: And what I've recently learned is the medical community is trying to move away [00:17:00] from screen time as the topic and kind of really look at. What is that content that we are consuming?

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: Okay. So the screen time came from back when it was a television. It was pretty much all you had. Mm-hmm. And maybe a computer. And we had very specific time limits, right? They would tell you at this age, you shouldn't have more than an hour of screen time, or you shouldn't have more than. Three hours of screen time or whatever that is.

But, uh, now, you know, how do you quantify that? Because at school, pretty much from elementary on, you have it here in front of a screen, that's where you're at. Mm-hmm. So is that really, was that really detrimental, um, to you? And what we're finding is it's not so much. The amount of screen time, especially as you're getting past that early developmental stage, right?

So that's kind of that five years and up, what is that content that you are consuming? So if you spend, you know, two hours watching a fun family [00:18:00] movie and have family bonding, well that's. Pretty amazing for your developmental, right? If you are spending, you know, 30 minutes watching hate speech on YouTube as a 10-year-old, 

Jessica Wrest: that's different.

Dr. Lahr: That's very different, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And so as you talk about those collateral, so kind of looking at what is this screen time or content viewing. What is it replacing? Mm-hmm. Are you crowding out other activities that would be, um, more helpful for your developmental stage? So, like Jessica said, her kids love being outside, right?

So she would know pretty quick if all of a sudden they're not going outside and they're spending a lot of time on a screen, that'd be like, okay, we need to make an adjustment. Here, right. But depending on what developmental stage your child is at or their activity level, where are their friends? Where are they getting the physical activity?

And really the two really, [00:19:00] I think, big buckets that are really easy to kind of monitor is what is their activity level. And what is their sleep like? Mm-hmm. I mean, it's important for all of us, 

Chris Posey: right? 

Dr. Lahr: All of us need to have that. But especially as kids, if you are, if the screens, the devices, the viewing time is interfering with the amount of sleep you're getting or interfering with your physical activity, those are red flags.

And so we're really, you know, and then you look at all the health. Compounding there. We have childhood obesity epidemic, right? Because we're not getting enough activity. Well, if that's being caused by the mental screen that you're using, we need to rebalance that. Mm-hmm. Jessica, 

Jessica Wrest: I would agree. Yeah. Yeah.

And you kind of have to, in a practical way, if I have a kid that is really in a sense addicted to screens, um, but like with the obesity, I try to initially attack it in a way that. If [00:20:00] they really don't wanna be off the screens, I will try to at least maybe working on a game, um, with physical activity.

Dr. Lahr: Yeah. 

Jessica Wrest: And then that's a good idea. Slowly work them away from the screens. And 

Dr. Lahr: I heard Pokemon Go is good for that. 

Jessica Wrest: Yes. 

Dr. Lahr: There was a whole study. Study about how it actually, there 

Jessica Wrest: was Yes. 

Dr. Lahr: Reduced. Um, 'cause it 

Jessica Wrest: gets them walking around. Mm-hmm. Help 

Dr. Lahr: reduce kids' 

Jessica Wrest: weight. Especially 

Dr. Lahr: by using Pokemon 

Jessica Wrest: Go. Yes.

Especially during COVID. I had a lot of kids that did that. 

Dr. Lahr: That's 

Rachel Roberts: interesting. What about, um, with like attention spans, have you all seen that that doom scrolling social media? Yes, for sure. The content? 

Jessica Wrest: Yes. 

Rachel Roberts: Is that affecting attention span? Yes. Yes. 

Jessica Wrest: Yes. 

Rachel Roberts: And how so? 

Jessica Wrest: Um, it's much shorter. Yeah. Because they get bored.

Rachel Roberts: Yeah. 

Jessica Wrest: There are apps that you can do. Um, and I, in a sense, I've recommended those two. You can shut your phone off and you can set it for a certain time to get a certain amount of things done, and then you [00:21:00] can be on your phone for 10 minutes and you can. Once you get your project done for, you can work for 30 minutes and then you can be on your phone for five.

Rachel Roberts: Hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: And so sometimes that's helpful. Yeah. For kids to have a DH adhd. 

Chris Posey: Is that like an app? 

Jessica Wrest: Mm-hmm. It's an app 

Chris Posey: and it's, 

Rachel Roberts: I think that helpful for 

Jessica Wrest: me too. Mm-hmm. It can be managed by the parents. I think that'd be helpful for anyone. Yeah. Yeah. Don't ask kidding. 

Dr. Lahr: I think they have some for adults 

Jessica Wrest: too. 

Dr. Lahr: My wife may have gotten me one for Christmas.

Jessica Wrest: My daughter uses it. That's how I found out about it. Okay. 

Dr. Lahr: Yeah. So really that shortening of attention span mm-hmm. Is it's, um, uh, a real thing. Mm-hmm. And it's probably caused by that dopamine release. Mm-hmm. It's that pleasure, right? Mm-hmm. You get it right away, but then it wears off. Mm-hmm. So then you're looking for that next rush almost.

And so, um, if you find yourself. You know, scrolling. Mm-hmm. And you feel really bad afterwards. Mm-hmm. That's a good sign that that's not what we should be doing. Right. So everything that, you know, Jessica said about, you know, you're [00:22:00] trying to get the time shortened on social media. I've asked patients not only just to do that, but then also interaction.

Mm-hmm. Like take the time to stop and actually interact with the posts. It's social. Media, you're not being social, you're just viewing, right? Mm-hmm. So what, what is this invented for then? Uh, it's not just social media. I, I don't know if it was a, a study or if they just released it, but it, there is a correlation, uh, between, uh, children that were raised on, like Sesame Street and Mr.

Rogers. And then the current kind of YouTube children's content that's all flashing lights and very fast, where everything's very slow in Mr. Rogers and you get to the, you get a resolution, but there's nothing really quick about it. And same thing with Sesame Street. I saw some recommendations on the A A P website, which is the American Academy of Pediatrics, which they have a ton of information about social media.

Mm-hmm. About device time, about [00:23:00] media for. Every age of your children. It's a great resource about, um, especially those early ages, if you are going to view something, go back and view those like the Sesame Street, the class and pbs mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shows. Yes. And it really helps kind of, um, avoid that small attention span mm-hmm.

That you get with the newer stuff. It's really kind of fascinating. 

Chris Posey: When I was a kid and I'd be watching Mr. Rogers or Sesame Street, there's no fast forwarding, like, 

Dr. Lahr: no, 

Chris Posey: you have to wait. You have, you were talking about there's a little bit of, there's some slowness there until you get to the resolution.

Mm-hmm. And. We had no option but to wait. Okay. Now they can, you know, move that little slider like this is going too slow, slow, slow. Ramification. Yeah. 

Dr. Lahr: Speed it up. Yeah. Yeah. Several years ago we realized, oh wait, we need to do a, uh, a different type of like TV rules in our family. Whenever our daughters were yelling at us that the TV was broken.

And so when I was like, oh gosh, they threw something, they [00:24:00] broke the tv. Right? We get up there. And there's a commercial and they were, I was like, well, what's, what's broken? It looks like it's working fine. They were like, our show just disappeared and this came on. And we were like, oh, you've never seen a commercial before?

Oh my God. They never had, they didn't. So even think about that. Not only could you not fast forward mm-hmm. But you had to pause what you were doing. Mm-hmm. And you had time to go do something else. Mm-hmm. You weren't just sucked in. So the whole kind of dynamic of our viewing has. Change. 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

You, you said something like, it's a little painful as a parent, do you all deal with parents coming in and like they have the frustration of we're trying, but, you know, and what, what can you say to them 

Jessica Wrest: that that's your job as a parent? 

Chris Posey: Yeah. Okay. 

Jessica Wrest: And yeah, it's painful. 

Chris Posey: Yeah, 

Jessica Wrest: it's hard 'cause it's you're being punished too.

Chris Posey: Yeah. 

Jessica Wrest: But that's your whole job. 

Chris Posey: Yep. 

Jessica Wrest: And the kids may not like it, but that's what [00:25:00] you're there for. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: And I spend a lot of time encouraging them and telling them, if it's not painful, then it's 

Dr. Lahr: probably doing it wrong. 

Jessica Wrest: Yeah. 

Dr. Lahr: Yeah. And then also, um, you have to kind of take a look at your own usage of your device.

Mm-hmm. And social media, how you interact on social media because your children. Y young, you know, young people around you, they're witnessing that, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, I'm sure you've experienced this where, you know, the parent may be complaining about, let's just say how much video games they're mm-hmm.

Uh, playing. Um, but in the entire appointment, the person has not put their phone down mm-hmm. The, the who I'm talking to. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. They're looking at their notifications, they're scrolling on Instagram. Um, and it's kinda like, well. How do you expect your child to learn that there's a limit to this if you're not gonna put down the phone yourself?

Chris Posey: Yeah. 

Dr. Lahr: Right. And so it [00:26:00] is hard. It's hard, it's really difficult. 

Chris Posey: Hmm. It's interesting. You were talking earlier, and I think this is a a great point. You were talking earlier on social media, that it's social. Mm-hmm. And there is an exchange. Do you feel that we are more inclined to become consumers? With social media and then that kind of expands out into real life when we are scrolling through, scrolling through, and that's all we do.

All we do, there is no exchange, there is no social interaction. 

Dr. Lahr: I'm sure Jessica's probably seen it too, where just kind of rules of etiquette, social interactions, my gosh, two. Uh, not exist. Mm-hmm. And you can, not all the time, but you can kind of trace it back to what is the, what is their device usage?

What is their social media 

Jessica Wrest: usage? Kids are, so, kids and adults are, they say so many more things behind the screen than [00:27:00] they would in person. 

Rachel Roberts: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: There's so much braver behind the screen than they would be in person. And I see kids in my office every single day because of bullying and. The depression rate and anxiety and all of the things because of bullying and the things that happen over the phone and in person too.

But a lot of it happens over the phone of 

Dr. Lahr: them. 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: With social media. Yeah. 

Chris Posey: We see that people are saying things online that maybe when we were going up, they wouldn't say to each other in real life. But do you think that it's becoming so pervasive online to say whatever you want and then. People are seeing these comments that they are taking this into real human interaction.

Like, well, this is, this is normal. This is real. Right? This is just the way we talk to each other. Mm-hmm. I mean, haven't you seen my social media feed? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And is it now moving into real life that [00:28:00] people are just spouting off whatever the same way they would when they thought they were anonymous on social media?

Dr. Lahr: Yeah, I think so. I, I would think so. Uh, saw some, um. Articles up kind of addressing that exactly about how social media is rewiring not just our brain, but society. Mm-hmm. How we interact. Mm-hmm. And so one reason to. Have some type of intentionality with whatever your social media interaction is going to be.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And not just sit and let it happen. I think that's one of the issues we kind of turn off our brain in a way. And something I thought was kind of, uh, on a lot of these social media usage, we start, or I'm seeing a lot of the words common sense, like we just need to use. Common sense restrictions, common sense type of interactions.

And I think it would, we would see a lot of mm-hmm. Decrease in some of those negative effects of social media. Going back to discussing with your kids, and probably with ourselves too, [00:29:00] a lot of time. Like one, we have to remember the internet lives forever at this point. Mm-hmm. And there's, it's practically impossible to take anything off.

And so once you put it out there, it is. Permanent and it is real. These are real comments that you're making, but there's, uh, a real person on the other side, um, who is gonna have, uh, a whole slew of reactions to it as well. Mm-hmm. And I think that's really hard to. Grasp a lot of the time, even for adults mm-hmm.

Where you just, it's almost like a reaction. 

Rachel Roberts: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: Right. And you're not even thinking about, if this was my neighbor, like, would I go knock on their door and say that to their face and say these things to their face? Yeah. You know, and I, you know, if the answer's no, then you probably shouldn't be posting it.

Mm-hmm. 

Rachel Roberts: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Golden rule. 

Dr. Lahr: Golden rule. Exactly. Common sense here. Yeah. 

Rachel Roberts: Yeah. Well, when it comes to kids and screen time, phone use, all of that, do you all feel it would be better [00:30:00] to restrict. Monitor co view. I know, you know, I have, um, family members when they were younger, their parents had access to their social media accounts.

If that's how they were allowed to have those accounts. It, it was, you know, well, if you're gonna have it, we are gonna have eyes on it. And I, I know it's different probably for every family, but what are you all seeing that works? 

Dr. Lahr: That's a good question. 

Jessica Wrest: All of the above. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: It's a full-time job. I mean, at least at my house it is.

So, I mean, currently my kids are older. My youngest is 15, she'll be 16 in September. So we are doing all of the above. So we monitor, we co monitor. She's in athletics at school, she had to sign a contract, so we a lengthy contract. So we went through all of that and we had. The talk about like what you're posting, it's always there.

You're representing your family, you're representing your [00:31:00] school, 

Rachel Roberts: your future. 

Jessica Wrest: Mm-hmm. Your future. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If you wanna go to college mm-hmm. This is, it's not gonna go away. You know, all of the conversation about what that would look like, and her eyes just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

And I'm like, do you understand what this means? And you could be off the team and we may not go to college. And she's like, okay. Okay. And so, I mean, it was just, it was going in and really 

Rachel Roberts: explaining the 

Jessica Wrest: impact. 

Rachel Roberts: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

Dr. Lahr: I agree. It's all those things. Um, try and I, I say it to myself and I said to mm-hmm.

Uh, patients all the time, like social media. Internet, whatever has made parenting harder. I mean, it just, it's, it hasn't made it easier. It's just one more thing that we have to do. And so if you can find ways to make it easier, there are programs. Um, we, we have a monitoring program on all of our child devices, right?

So we can remotely turn them off. We can [00:32:00] set. The amount of time they're on it. And we can set, uh, search restrictions and purchase restrictions, which I'm are important because you can buy anything on the internet. But then it's kind of a, a, a combination of everything you said, Rachel. So there's probably gonna be times when you are going to have to restrict, like that's the only thing that makes sense in that situation as much as you can co-viewing or at least, um, having some type of mechanism to know.

What that content is that they are consuming. 'cause it's not so much like the length of time they're on it, but what is the quality of that content? Right? So if you're five and you're watching PBS for 45 minutes, that's probably gonna be fine. Mm-hmm. Right? But then if you're five and you're watching, um, Terminator.

That's not that that gives you, there's no educational value to that. 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: Right? And so what are we, what are we consuming? Um, and, and monitoring and just I think being okay with [00:33:00] changing how you're handling the device time, the screen time, the social media. I mean, I. Like I said, our current roles, we just had enough and so we said, you know what?

We're just, there's gonna be no social media on your phones until you turn 18. 'cause my wife and I are both busy physicians and, and it takes a 

Jessica Wrest: lot of 

Dr. Lahr: time. It takes, it takes a lot of time and it. No matter what you put on there to monitor it, you can't kind of divorce yourself from the parenting aspect.

Right. And so all the questions that you would ask your child before they go to a sleepover mm-hmm. Or engage in an activity, you really have to do that whole thing for every single social media kind of interaction that your kid is gonna have. Mm-hmm. And so for us, we just found it easier to say, okay, we're not gonna do that.

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. Kind of. Ironic how we are inventing these things and creating these things and building these things for, to [00:34:00] make our lives easier and for convenience, and they just, just keep add more stuff to our lives. We've talked a lot about kids, and I know that your practice is focused primarily on children, but even anecdotally, are you seeing things arising with adults?

Are there differences in the way adults are being impacted by screen time and negative use of screens and uh, device time? Is there, is there a difference there or is it all the same? Hmm. The same issues, regardless of how old you are. Are you seeing anything with regard to adults? 

Jessica Wrest: Oh, I think it's probably the same.

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. A lot of the same stuff. 

Jessica Wrest: Yeah. 

Chris Posey: Hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: It affects me. I mean, it keeps me awake personally. It keeps me awake at night. Mm-hmm. I doom scroll. Mm-hmm. It distracts me, you know, I'm supposed to be doing the dishes, I'm supposed to be making dinner. I'm, I would much rather sit on my couch and. Scroll, TikTok.

Yeah. [00:35:00] You know, I have plenty of things I need to be doing, and I would much rather sit there and be on TikTok or mm-hmm. Instagram or whatever, so Yeah. It, it affects, I'm sure adults just the same as it does kids. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you'll see, I think outwardly a lot of the same type of things like irritability.

Mm-hmm. Whenever you have to stop. Mm-hmm. Uh, insomnia. Mm-hmm. Um. Decrease in mood, increasing anxiety. You know, I think one difference to point out is that in that developmental stages, so if we have. Too much social media, too much screen time, whatever you want to insert there. Um, and we're crowding out those other healthy behaviors.

When are you gonna learn those? Mm-hmm. They're a lot easier to learn in that zero to five to self-soothe than if you're 35 and trying to learn how to sell thethe. Because normally whenever you switch, 'cause you're used to that immediate kind of, um. You know, you feel bad and now you feel good. There's no time [00:36:00] between it and there's not a lot of things that can do that for us that are legal.

And so then you turn to these coping skills. Mm-hmm. We, we put in air quotes, coping skills that are not very 

Chris Posey: right. 

Dr. Lahr: Healthy. Mm-hmm. So, you know, we have the benefit of having, we were kind of almost forced to develop these coping skills, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think it's somewhat easier for us now to say, okay, I'm gonna stop.

Right. So I'm gonna give up social media. I don't think I'm gonna be, you know, in, in my office unable to function. There's other things I'm gonna be able to find to waste my time. Yeah. I guarantee you that. Okay. Uh, but if you're seven. Your world's falling apart. And then you have behavioral issues, right?

And then you're not learning at school because you're so distracted by what's going on in your home life. And then you have to come and see a therapist, which is gonna take time out of your parents' day. And then if we don't intervene early enough, then you can see kind of an escalation of other, um. Uh, [00:37:00] developmental or psychiatric conditions, and then you're sitting in front of us and trying to figure out, okay, what's the next step?

So I do think there's kind of more, maybe more compounding earlier. Uh, that you, uh, in life than as an adult. But I mean, I can tell you, I, I don't know if I've seen an adult recently who hasn't come in with their phone and they are, you know, you're in the waiting room. Yeah. That's really interesting.

You're, you're able to, you know, 

Jessica Wrest: I mean, their whole life is on their phone. 

Dr. Lahr: Everything. My whole life is on my phone. Yeah, 

Jessica Wrest: for sure. 

Dr. Lahr: Right. 

Jessica Wrest: I mean, and if you think about it, we're how six years out from COVID and. We handed these kids that were in pre-K a computer. Mm-hmm. 

Chris Posey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: And that's how we told them to do school on a computer.

Chris Posey: Yeah. 

Jessica Wrest: That's crazy. 

Chris Posey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Jessica Wrest: So they, that's how they grew up. 

Chris Posey: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like as you all are seeing your child, patients. And listening to their story, you could just look out [00:38:00] in the lobby and get a lot of it right there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. From the parents waiting in the lobby. And it's tough. I, I'm with you.

Like, when I go to bed for some reason, that's my, that's my TikTok Yeah. Viewing time. 

Dr. Lahr: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Posey: And you just don't realize. You're like, how did you get to be 11 o'clock, right? Mm-hmm. I laid down at, in the nine o'clock hour, and it's an 11 o'clock right now. 

Dr. Lahr: You know, you can set a timer on your phone. 

Chris Posey: I know you can do that.

Dr. Lahr: You can, you can be like 15 minutes and it goes off and then you turn off your phone. 

Chris Posey: Yeah. Yep. 

Dr. Lahr: Or even better don't have your phone in your, you know, honestly, though, uh, it's not. Everybody that has to do this. But if you are really having insomnia, it doesn't matter if you're a child, if you're an adult, the screens need to be away from the bed.

Mm-hmm. And really it's somewhere between that 30 to 60 minutes, probably before you're trying to fall asleep, uhhuh that not having any of the blue light, the interaction, like 

Jessica Wrest: no tv, no phone, 

Dr. Lahr: no tv, no [00:39:00] phone. Um, if you are looking at kind of that sleep hygiene that is gonna be on there mm-hmm. It's probably one of the hardest.

It's mm-hmm. One of the, it is. Uh, rules that I'm gonna admit, we probably don't enforce enough at our house, is that all devices are supposed to be charged downstairs. The girls' rooms are upstairs, so they're not supposed to have them in their room. Mm-hmm. Right? But then as a parent, you have to go check, then you have to, then you have to do a parenting job.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and then you forget to check and they forget to turn it in. And so, um, especially and I think for teenagers mm-hmm. It's important not just because, um, it's going to. Interfere with falling asleep. And I don't know if you've heard this, Jessica, but I've had, uh, people tell me that like they're so anxious that they're gonna miss something.

Yes. Mm-hmm. They will wake up in the middle of the night in the middle of, and check their phone and there's no, they're, I'm like, you're, you're 13. Like the hospital's not calling you. In the middle of the night to save a life. So what, what, what is, what's going on? 

Jessica Wrest: Yeah. 

Dr. Lahr: Right. 

Jessica Wrest: They might have forgot to send their streak or 

Dr. Lahr: [00:40:00] Yeah.

They may have forgotten to. Yeah. Or they needed to play a game. You know, they have the streaks, right? Yes. Like the, I have to, oh, I forgot to do this. Yeah. Um, and so having it out of the room really makes it a, a big difference. Mm-hmm. And, uh, but then also, would you let your child roam? Downtown Tulsa at three o'clock in the morning, right?

Yeah. And if that's answer's no, then you probably shouldn't let them have unrestricted access to the internet at three o'clock in the morning. Mm-hmm. Right? 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. So I think that's a great tip as we kind of wrap up here. Can we, I even at the risk of being a little repetitious, I'm wondering if we can kind of consolidate all of our solutions, our, you know, and, and a little bit of perspective and, you know, we have talked a lot about the potential harm and, and damage and, and whatever of, of devices and screens.

But I think wrapping up with a little bit of perspective, not to demonize them Sure. But just to talk about, you know, that goldilock state [00:41:00] of. Screens and devices. Can we wrap up with just some solutions and some perspective? 

Jessica Wrest: Um, you can, you know, do all the monitoring. You can put all these things in place, but you really just need to focus on being present with your kids.

And it starts when they're young and. Um, just forming those good relationship 

Chris Posey: mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: Bonds and things like that, because the more you talk to them and the more you know what's going on in their life, you're gonna know when something is off, when they're disappearing in their room, when they're not talking about this friend anymore.

Um, when they're not sleeping well, that you're gonna know. 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: Something's off. That's probably the most important thing, I 

Chris Posey: think. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rachel Roberts: And setting the example, kind of like you talked about. Mm-hmm. You know, not the parent not being on their phone all the time and engaging with their kids, which is what you were just talking about.

Right. But I think that's, you know, growing up, you're seeing your parents do it and you think, okay, well if they're doing it, then it's okay. [00:42:00] And sometimes we just need to put the phone down and talk mm-hmm. To each other. Mm-hmm. Face to face. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: That's right. Yeah. I agree with all that. And, um. Nothing is, you know, social media screen.

It's not a hundred percent the cause of any problem. It's the way that we interact with it. 

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: And I think the power in that is that you have the ability to change. It. Right? And so I think now's a great time to kind of take that inventory of your social media life, your digital life, right? So how are you using it in your daily life?

How are your kids using it in the daily life? If it is bringing value to your family, why change? 

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Lahr: Right? Mm-hmm. But if it is causing you to lose out on that connection, um, if you are feeling depressed, anxious, when you're on it. It, it's time to step away and just, uh, either find a different way [00:43:00] to incorporate it into your life.

'cause like you said earlier, Rachel, it's really hard for a lot of us to step away. Like some of our jobs revolve around social media, so that, that's gonna look different than somebody that is using, uh, Instagram or TikTok for entertainment. So if you tell yourself, this is for entertainment and you're not being entertained, then that's a.

Pretty big clue that this is not working for us. Right? Mm-hmm. And I love what you said, Jessica, about connecting with your kids. 'cause that's kind of that whole, going back to monitoring, you can see it as monitoring or you could see it as interacting with your kids. I like that kind of reframe there.

Like you Yeah. Just spending that time. And then as your child gets older, um, anyone with teenage preteens know that they're not the easiest people sometimes to talk with. Right. How's your day? Fine. Right. That's all you get. That's all you get. Right. But if you are, if you know that they, uh, you know, have a TikTok or that they like to follow mm-hmm.

They're much [00:44:00] more likely to engage in that conversation. The TikTok with you. Yes. Send the TikTok, get that interaction. Mm-hmm. Going, but then also as you are viewing things maybe that don't match up with your parenting style or with your ethics, you can have that discussion, right. Like, oh. You know, in our family, this is not something that we do.

Do you know why we don't, you know, whatever this activity is. Mm-hmm. Um, and get that discussion because I know, I don't think we've mentioned it, but just, you know, as we wrap up here to. Remind, um, ourselves, but then also our children. Like not everything on the internet is true. Yeah. Right. And the only way to kind of know what that Yeah.

Is that communication with your parents, because you'll see, they're like, well, so and so posted, and you hear it and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Who was that? Mm-hmm. What are you talking about? Um, and, uh, let's investigate it just a little bit and not just say, well this, uh, talker said that I need to do [00:45:00] X, Y, or Z.

Chris Posey: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Wrest: Right. 

Chris Posey: That's a great point. Really great point. Not everything on the internet is true. I think we as adults could benefit from that too. 

Dr. Lahr: A hundred 

percent. 

Chris Posey: Yeah. Alright, well I feel like we've just. Scratch the surface of this topic. There's so much to it, so much. But I do appreciate y'all's time today and your insights.

It's been great. And just a, a nice way to introduce us to some constructive use of our devices and our screen time. So thanks for being with us today. Thank you. 

Rachel Roberts: Thank you.

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