Cultivating Positive Schools: Jacinta Kitt on Hope, Relationships, and Leadership

Join us for an inspiring conversation with Jacinta Kitt, a distinguished educator who dedicated her career to fostering positive behaviours and relationships in schools.

In her conversation with our host, Ultan, Jacinta explores the power of positive relationships and their monumental impact on educational success. She emphasises the importance of nurturing emotional intelligence and creating an environment in schools where both students and staff can thrive. This episode offers a roadmap for educators and leaders, looking to encourage optimism in their classrooms by embracing open communication and dialectical thinking.

Finally, we consider the concept of teaching as a profession of hope. Jacinta passionately articulates the importance of cultivating psychological resources such as hope, optimism, self-efficacy, and resilience within educational settings. Learn how breaking down daunting goals into manageable tasks can lead to significant achievements and how self-awareness enhances communication skills. Through anecdotes and expert insights, this episode equips educators with the tools to promote assertive communication, resolve conflicts effectively, and foster a culture of mutual respect and understanding. 

Tune in for an enriching discussion that promises to reshape your perspective on education and leadership, and perhaps even personal growth. 

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 Teachers Themselves is a DWEC original, produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre produced by Zita Robinson. 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:18

Fáilte stach and welcome to the Teachers Themselves podcast. I'm your host, Alton MacMahona. This podcast is brought to you by Dublin West Education Support Centre. We're located on the grounds of TUD Talla, serving and supporting the school communities of West Dublin and beyond. Welcome to season three of Teachers Themselves. Episodes this season feature some great conversations with the passionate educators who contribute to your lives as educators and school leaders. These are people who have dedicated their careers to improving the educational outcomes of children and to enriching the education system.

Speaker 2 0:53

Teaching is described as the profession of hope. There's a lot of mention of hope in the descriptions of what teaching should be and education should be, and that's why I got hooked on it.

Speaker 1 1:05

So welcome to this week's episode of Teachers Themselves and I'm delighted to say, I'm renewing an old connection this week because I'm talking to Jacinta Kitt. And Jacinta Kitt lots of people will know already from her work in education, both in school and Trinity College, and her book that was published, Positive Behaviours, Relationships and Emot College, and her book that was published Positive Behaviours, Relationships and Emotions the Heart of Leadership in a School. And that's where our connection started, because I actually used a lot of what Jacinta had written in my own approach to school and then in further studies I did myself, I was able to reference it. Jacinta, you're very, very welcome to teach.

Speaker 2 1:56

I'm keeping very well, I must say now. I have been trying to retire since 2017 and I think I just about I'm at the point now where I can say I'm retired. So when I stop talking to you today, I'm going to open a bottle of champagne and have a glass to my retirement Good.

Speaker 1 2:17

Anya. Good Anya, that's a phrase I haven't heard before. I've been trying to retire for the last two years. Good Anya, I'll jump straight into it. Jacinta, can you? Good on you, I jumped straight into it. Jacinta, can you tell me where you're from in the country, and you might tell me a little bit about why you became a teacher, how you got interested in teaching?

Speaker 2 2:33

Right, well, I will. I'm originally from Mullingar and I had quite I suppose you could call it almost a controversial childhood in the sense that my father died at 59. I was at that time in boarding school in the Convent of Mercy moat, and very soon after he died, in what I think was a bit of a scandal but I was probably protected from it my mother married the Christian brother that was teaching my brother at the time. Oh yes, who, as you can imagine, he was a fair bit her junior and I came home from boarding school you know home, as it would have been to Mullingar, but I came home to Naoise County, kildare, to a new house and a new father.

Speaker 2 3:21

So I really am a bit of a traveller, in the sense that I have no real fixed abode and, believe it or not, I would probably associate myself more with Galway because I married a Galway man, and if you marry a Galway man you have Galway football, harlan, the whole shebang, music and everything. So, if anyone, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that I am from Galway, but I have an affiliation to it and, of course, dublin as well, believe it or not, because we got married at 21 years of age in Dublin and we're here still, so I couldn't really leave it out, and it certainly was where most of my career took place.

Speaker 1 4:07

Isn't it funny how so many people in Ireland are a bit like yourself, charlie? He was brilliant at claiming citizenship to many different counties.

Speaker 2 4:19

Yeah, well, I wasn't looking for votes, I'm just trying to be as accurate as I can. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with spreading it around a bit, because you know good things. And of course, I have been back to Mullingar in the last two years because they hosted the FLA and it was absolutely brilliant, you know.

Speaker 1 4:38

You have an interest in the Irish music, you do.

Speaker 2 4:40

Oh well, look, I have an interest in all sorts of music, of course. I have two sons musicians, in fact three, but two professionally. So I mean there's music in the house and actually my husband just gave me a peck on the cheek going out there. He's on his way down to Simpsons Hospital where he does the session for the patients down there once a month. So he's on his way now to Simpsons with the guitar and they absolutely love it. I think he only had about two or three the first time. Now everyone comes and he sings a mixture, but it'd be a lot of the older ones, old songs that they recognise.

Speaker 1 5:20

Yes.

Speaker 2 5:21

So yeah, music is a very big part of our lives.

Speaker 1 5:24

That's very good. And the teaching then? How is it you got into the teaching?

Speaker 2 5:27

Well, in boarding school in Moat County, westmeath, I think the greatest accolade that you could boast about was getting the call to training. You didn't have to say what the call was for or what the training was for, because everybody knew it and a lot of schools they based their success on the numbers of calls to training that they got. And I got the call to training without really having any notion of being a teacher. But, as my mother said to me, if you get the call to training, you're damn well taking the call to training. There was no real choice in the matter. However, I have to say that I really loved every minute of teaching. I taught at first level, as you alluded to there, and I taught at third level and I absolutely loved the little ones in primary school, but equally with a whole lot of different challenges and a whole lot of different rewards. I enjoyed my time in Trinity College I think about 25 years there. So I did make the right choice, but inadvertently, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 6:41

I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. What was your favourite thing about teaching the kids?

Speaker 2 6:47

My favourite thing. Let me tell you what was my least favourite thing.

Speaker 1 6:52

Okay.

Speaker 2 6:53

And to lead into the question that you've just asked, the thing that bothered me from the word go in primary school at the time was how strict you had to be with the children. You were expected to be with the children. So it was mirror the veil, it was tae a colo, it was speaking in unison. There was no consideration of the different degrees to which the students were engaging with you or understanding what you were doing, and that was what was expected of you. When the Kiggurah came out to examine you, what I did, my teacher, was where you went out to schools to kind of observe and help, you know, if you could, in small ways.

Speaker 2 7:36

And I was with a teacher who was nearing retirement and it was like going into an Aladdin's cave. The kids were able to no, it wasn't junior infants, it was like going into an Aladdin's cave. The kids were able to. No, it wasn't junior infants, it was senior infants were able, when they were finished their work, to get up and go to. She had corners with all different activities in them. They were able to move around the classroom. If they got a bit noisy, she'd say with her hand. You know, kind of just like. It was beautiful, but she told me that the Ciggara came in at that time a very long time ago and complained about her to the pre-vigil that she had no smocked.

Speaker 1 8:17

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 8:18

Yeah, and it was a start for me to say was a start for me to say I don't really want to do this smocked business, if it means what it did mean at the time. So, being able to break out of that a little bit, because you had to be careful, I mean, in those days, the inspector could open the drawer of your desk and root through it and they, literally, they were You're joking me? Well, that happened to me. So and of course, needless to say, I had the classroom absolutely beautiful, but I had everything swept into the top drawer for him and of course, that's what he saw, and I think there is an Irish word for it, but I forget what it was, but it was like Trí na ceile. So she said Trí na ceile. But I obviously complied with.

Speaker 2 9:06

You know what you had to do, but my main focus was on the children enjoying school. That was always my main focus and I always focused it on laughter and fun, and laughing at myself was always a good thing for children who might have been laughed at by others, if you know what I mean. So I often would put the wrong spelling up on the board and they'd laugh at it and I'd say oh well, look, even teacher gets the old spellings wrong. It was that kind of an atmosphere that I wanted to create, but I moved out into the more overall environment in the school, not just the classroom environment. In fact, I only kind of put that in to the whole school scenario that I really studied after that and really got into, you know, in terms of how important it was. Okay brilliant.

Speaker 1 10:01

You gave us a great picture there of your approach to teaching. You developed on then into Trinity College. Could you tell me a little bit about how you got involved there and what were you doing?

Speaker 2 10:12

miraculous conception I arrived after 11 years and my other three were on the way and I just decided that I would take a break. And I actually didn't go back. So I started. I went back studying instead of going back working at the time. I went back studying, I did two postgrad diplomas in education and I subsequently did my master's in education.

Speaker 2 10:45

But I did my master's on a very peculiar subject and I was told when I brought my thesis into the Department of Education on request that it was a bit of a waste of time for me because I did workplace bullying in schools workplace bullying in primary schools, I think, because my knowledge would have been of primary schools, workplace bullying and the person in the Department of Education said well, I wish you well with it, but I don't think there'll be much need for it because we don't have that problem in our schools. And they were wrong because but I knew that there were problems of that nature in schools and I was aware of it. I was aware of them but and I did a huge amount of work on them and I did a lot of cases and I know I won't say a lot, but a number of cases in the high court as expert witness on the subject. But it wasn't. It wasn't all in schools, it was in other areas, it was workplace. My thesis reflected bullying irrespective of the environment, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 11:55

But it was workplace bullying, but it can become after a number of years and it did with me that it actually pulled me down a lot because you weren't always successful with it. Now we did actually, myself and another colleague start a whole program up and down the country. We did the prisons, we did the guards, we did everyone on being aware of bullying and setting up anti-bullying policies, and all of that. We did a lot of work.

Speaker 2 12:22

But at the same time, it's a subject that can drag you down, because if you're talking to somebody who was in that situation, I wasn't able to put myself off entirely. My husband used to say that I bring all of those people to bed with me. You know, in the sense that I wouldn't be able to switch off. They'd be all in the bed with me in terms of talking about them, thinking about them. So I decided that, for my own health and well-being and also with the view to inadvertently helping to alleviate bullying or to deal with bullying, that I'd look at the positive side of the type of environments in where bullying would be less likely to happen. So I went for preventing bullying. That's really you know where I went. So I was then dealing with the positive elements, which was much more beneficial to myself, but also beneficial to the cause that I started with.

Speaker 1 13:24

Well, you've actually led me straight into something I really want to be asking about. So you're setting up, I suppose, a culture where workplace bullying is far less likely to happen, we'll say yes exactly, and you do that by, I suppose, going at the core of the person and stuff like psychologically caring for yourself, interpersonal relationships. Can you tell me a little bit about, so, how you developed those concepts?

Promoting Positive Relationships in Schools

Speaker 2 13:50

well they're applicable to schools yeah, I looked at what was the main thing that you would need to do to have a healthy environment where people could thrive and whatever. So of course, it had to be where they would say because I worked mainly in schools where the school, in terms of education, what you're asking me about and I really looked at it in terms of what sort of environment can present or provide the highest quality of educational service. But in order to be able to do that, what I focused on was in what sort of an environment or in what sort of an atmosphere can you do that? And I immediately went more towards the psychological in some ways when I talked about it, that it is in a respectful, cooperative pairing, which wasn't really used in terms of employees, that much an informal atmosphere, and that wasn't used at all because it was very formal. So I felt if we are going to provide the highest quality of service, we need to marry it with the atmosphere.

Speaker 2 14:58

And then I looked, I suppose, particularly at the relationships and the behaviours in schools. Now, people didn't like it in the beginning because I wasn't looking at the behaviour of the children, I was looking at the behaviour of the adult, and that's where I started and then really to kind of get the message across that positive relationships and behaviours were performance issues, not optional extras, and that's what. That was quite hard at the time because it was that old touchy feely stuff they kind of called it. You know, you're into that, oh, you're into that old touchy feely stuff. So I had to really research what were the downsides to that sort of environment and the first thing I looked at was stress, because there's a lot of stress at the time, you know, in teaching More now, I would say, with the huge demands that are on teachers and other people who work in education.

Speaker 2 15:55

But at the same time there was a lot of stress and I did a bit of research on that and discovered I mean easy enough to discover it that interpersonal stress so that's the stress of dealing with other people 50% more stressful than impersonal stress and lasts 60% longer. So the interpersonal stress is much more, I'd say, more widely known now. But there was a very good piece of research done that showed that toxic relationships are considered to be this was in psychological research, if I recall correctly toxic relationships considered to be as major a risk factor for disease and death as smoking, physical inactivity I think obesity was one, high blood pressure and cholesterol. I might not be getting all those right, but the main point I'm making is that toxic relationships were as big a risk factor as those. So you know, to get across the importance of having positive behaviours and relationships in schools, I did it really mainly in schools. I did it elsewhere too, but my focus was in schools.

Speaker 1 17:05

So, jacinda, if I'm a principal in a school, I want to ensure that you know these aren't optional extras that we actively pursue the creation of a culture where we're reducing the interpersonal stress. We're reducing, you know, occasions for people to feel either bullied in the workplace or stressed, or whatever it is. What's the key advice you would give me?

Speaker 2 17:27

Well, the advice would be that number one you have to persuade them that this is an important part of you see, in my definition the highest quality of educational service. And most of them sorry, I don't mean to exclude anybody, but you know, principals of schools, leaders of schools, that's what they want to be. They want to provide the highest standard of educational service. But my job was to show them that they can't do that unless they look at the behaviours and the relationships and the emotions, things that when I started first people walked out of some of my talks and said to me I know I've no time for them newfangled intelligences. I was able to give them, bring them right back to 1920 on the social intelligence, but you know they were there always. So, talking about even that, those things influence their well-being, never mind the quality of the educational service that you know. First you had to focus on the damage physical and psychological, health and well-being affected by it. Feelings and moods affected enthusiasm and optimism. So if they haven't got enthusiastic teachers or optimistic teachers, I went at it that way. Self-esteem, achievement all of those things are influenced by behaviors, relationships and emotions. So if I got that message across to them now, a lot of people thought, I mean, they weren't waiting for me, like as if I came with the magic wand.

Speaker 2 18:58

But for those who were, as you alluded to, they're maybe perhaps resistant to these kind of focuses. You know you had to put it in a context if you know what I mean, and you had to look at the various types of like, for example, even communication. I began to look at communication. I think I remember talking to them about dialectical thinking first, because sometimes the problems were coming from the leadership. You know, in the sense that they made the decisions and you know it was my way or the highway. There was a little bit of that was nearly expected. And I remember putting a huge focus on something I read in an article about dialectical thinkers. You know how successful they were and how they were able to bring people with them, and it was defined something around this. You know how successful they were and how they were able to bring people with them, and it was defined something around this. You know that they welcome and encourage difference, diverse, contradictory opinions, views and approaches.

Speaker 2 19:59

That would have been considered insulting. That would have been considered. Who does that one think she is with her newfangled ideas? Okay, but to get them into the mode of dialectic thinking, that not alone do you accept different points of view, but you welcome them and you encourage them. And that often doesn't happen. Sometimes when you know maybe a principal in school come in and make a statement about something and what they should do is they should go around to everyone and say what do you think about that, and allowing them and encouraging them to pick holes if they had to, you know, in a respectful way, of course.

Speaker 2 20:37

So it was a process, I suppose you could nearly call it, and it took a long time. I mean, they used to say to me about you're on, that touchy, feely stuff that only a woman would be talking about. Something said to me once, you know, but I had a good answer for that, but I won't give it now Live on air. So we looked at communication, we looked at good communication, we looked at the different types of communication. There were a lot of the things we looked at, you know. We looked at managing conflict, you know we. Also we looked at caring for yourself. This is in the context of caring for yourself.

Speaker 2 21:12

So it was a new concept at the time no, nobody, there was no question of it at the time. But proactive caring for yourself is vital, but you nearly thought that you'd be a bit selfish if you were talking about that. You know, and when you hear the kind of things that are involved in proactive caring for yourself, like accurate self-assessment of what you can and cannot do, I mean it begins to make a bit of sense. Then you know, if you look at something and you say, no, I won't be able to do that today, I'll be able to just maybe part that, but I can do that now and I'll get on with this Identify. One of the things that I found very helpful was and it's something that I would have used a lot if I was ever asked to do sit-in at interviews for leadership people in leadership, I'd try to look for their psychological capital Now, I didn't scare them by using the word, but psychological resources that are really important. But I'll go back to that in a minute, if you don't mind, and I'll finish what you asked me for, the caring, getting it but it was to identify and use their psychological resources. That was caring for themselves. Understanding and managing stress when it did come was another thing, and that's very much part of the emotional and social intelligences. And then maybe focusing on reflection. That's one of the biggest things that prevents people from changing and a huge number of people don't reflect, don't introspect. You know they never. They always project onto somebody. Well, if only she did that and if only everything would be all right.

Speaker 2 22:53

So, proactive, caring for yourself involved all of those things and I suppose, the psychological. I used to say to people in the interviews you know, fine, take a note of their qualifications, their experience and everything. But what you really need to know is how they are on their psychological capital. You know their human capital, their, their other various capitals and of course, we're all looking at me with the mouths open. What the hell is that when it's at home? But it's quite simple. It's that they have hope, optimism, self-efficacy, which is effectively confidence and resilience. And can you imagine if you got somebody as a principal of a school that had hope? You know, we'll talk about hope if you want to, and optimism. There's a lot of things you know involved in them.

Speaker 1 23:44

In your book. Actually, the quote I've used is if hope is a sense that an outcome is possible, optimism is a sense that it is probable.

Speaker 2 23:50

Well, thank you for reminding me of that.

Speaker 1 23:52

No problem, it's one. I try to because there's another person I work with, who, who you know, is always in good form and would say it's a choice and there is a, as you say, a psychological. How strong is your psychological to make that choice? Or if I first have to make the choice? But just to back up what you're saying there, there's people use the phrase and it drives me mad soft skills. By the nature of it, it kind of makes it where it's not as important as I prefer the phrase profound skills because, they are.

Speaker 1 24:23

The skills, when used correctly, affect everything, everything in the school. Because if you can affect the relationship to your school in a positive way, you go back to what you've said. The highest standards of education and service will come out of that, because they cannot be achieved without quality relationships. And that soft skill thing drives me mad. It does Women will do that, or the touchy feely or whatever.

Speaker 2 24:46

it is Touchy feely stuff.

Speaker 1 24:50

These are the profound skills and without them you certainly can't lead. No, no.

Speaker 2 24:56

They're essential. But they're also essential for yourself, you know, for yourself, for handling situations, dealing with situations. You know a hope. It's a peculiar one, but if you look a lot of the literature, teaching is described as the profession of hope. There's a lot of mention of hope in the descriptions of what teaching should be and education should be, and that's why I got hooked on it. But like, hope is the descriptions of what teaching should be and education should be, and that's why I got hooked on it. But like, hope is a lot of things. It's a lot of practical things. That's what you were saying there.

Speaker 2 25:27

It's not just the touchy-feely. You know hope is essential for happiness and success. You have to have hope. But it's the opposite, if you take it in turn. It's the opposite of fatalism, hopelessness, despair. So when you put it like that, on the kind of linear thing you can get to, it's setting and pursuing and attaining goals. That's very practical. That's not airy-fairy, it's having the will and the ways to achieve those goals. And it's also about making it easy for yourself. It's about parceling big goals into small ones. So it's very practical. Hope is, you know, and it's placing then the reality of your achievements in the context of future possibilities. So, oh, I did it. If I did it I can do that, you know. So it's a wonderful thing.

Speaker 2 26:20

Optimism. I only give the Oscar Wilde fixed. Optimist and pessimist, the difference is droll. The optimist sees the donut and the pessimist sees the hole. It was a very irreverent fellow. Oh my god, my poor head is gone, but anyway, I like that one. You know, seeing the doughnut asking what's good about things, you just kind of, when something is presented to them, oh my God, that'll take forever. Oh my God, that won't work. Oh my God, we tried that last year. We didn't work then. It won't work now. But looking at asking what's good in it, trying to see the best in things, and in others as well, there was a woman called Geraldine Glasgow.

Speaker 1 27:00

I don't know if you've ever come across her. We used to use her in the school where I worked. She'd give talks to parents and that, but she'd always talk about Irish people and how we can sometimes concentrate on the one big negative thing. You know that you went on a two-week holiday and then there was a bit of a row on the last day. You ruined. On the last day you ruined the whole holiday. You didn't. You had 13 excellent days, just one. Or you know you ruined the whole of Christmas. So concentrate on the negative when there's tons of positive out there for us to grab onto and use as a prop to keep us going.

Effective Communication and Organizational Citizenship

Speaker 1 27:28

But I want to get on to here Jacinta is. I know when you gave courses here in Dublin West. You know Siobhan here, si, oh, siobhan here, siobhan here with us, oh, they love her. They love her, and I think it's because you did give people hope and you gave them practical advice. One of the things that came across that you'd written about was organisational citizenship behaviour, how that's of benefit to us, and I remember it was a thing we used to have in our own school. Our deputy principal, johnny McGrath used to talk about it.

Speaker 2 27:51

Yes, If you want to others. It was always a good starting, but could you tell us a little bit about organisational citizenship behaviour? Well, I suppose really it was the methods of communication that you use. Organisational citizenship behaviour really meant that everybody had rights as citizens and not just as citizens of the organisation. So in other words, we have rights as citizens in light generally, but we also have rights as citizens of organizations. So that was really just the platform for, I suppose, what I was looking at the communication. It was really about communicating that and it was really about the difference between good communicators, who think before they speak, who get the message across coherently, who avoid offence and leakage. That is how you treat someone as a citizen. You know, avoid sarcasm.

Speaker 2 28:47

Leakage was always the one. Yeah, I used to talk a lot about the leakage. What could you say? Leakage? To me, leakage was saying one thing, with your mouth, with your body, leaking something else. You know the discrepancy between what you say and what you're thinking, because it comes out in the leakage, so it'd be body language.

Speaker 2 29:12

I think I invented the word leakage, but it's probably a bit crude. I don't mean it to be, but you know so and adopting getting the message across, not expecting everybody to understand everything you say, to realize that different people have different perceptions of what you're saying. So adopting the message to the recipient and to the environment as well. You know, you wouldn't talk the same way to maybe a group of adults as you would to children. Listening was part of it as well, you know. And open minded open minded I mean close minds. God help us to have to work with people with close minds. God help us to have to work with poor communicators because, let me tell you, most poor communicators have very little knowledge of what good communion is and they regard themselves as good communicators. That's been researched, you know, in terms of figures, like in terms of.

Speaker 1 30:10

That's all.

Speaker 2 30:11

And they give very little thought to how they communicate. They just go along, Whereas we're all learning. You know we're all learning, I'm learning. I'm not doing things now that I would have done for a lot of my life. I'm still learning and changing. Now I do talk too much. I know that. You know I'm on with you. I have to keep talking, that you're telling me to stop.

Speaker 1 30:32

That's what I asked you to do with the talks. That's back on.

Speaker 2 30:39

But you know, they misinterpret to poor communications, they misread situations, you know. And the other thing about it is people who are poor communicators are very keen for everybody to be on the same vein as them. They don't like anybody to digress, so as a result of that, they gather around them compliant others. You know, know the gang. They show favouritism to certain people and they hold grudges for communicators of people who don't agree with them. And of course, the big one of all that I talk a lot about, not really in my work in schools, but in general the huff. They go into a huff. You know the huff. Have you heard of the huff?

Speaker 1 31:18

Oh God yeah.

Speaker 2 31:19

Yes, the huff is where there's something wrong with somebody, but they refuse to tell you what it is.

Speaker 1 31:26

Yes, they call that in Kilkenny. He took a stook.

Speaker 2 31:29

He took a stook, exactly A huff, and refuses to tell the other people what's what. And people can keep up a huff. I can tell you the biggest thing that worries me in schools, where there are disagreements or whatever, where a huff is involved or where they suspend verbal communication with each other. Poor communicators do that a lot. They suspend, you know, verbal communication or they draw back from the person and the person's getting the vibes, but sometimes they don't know why. And it's really important that if something is wrong with you, we all feel aggrieved at times that you talk about it and say it. You know there is even a formula for it. You know, when you, I feel so I'd like you to, so that it's a lovely formula. So when you but it, so I'd like you to, so that it's a lovely formula. So when you but it's the exact thing you don't say. When you make a show of me in front of everybody. But when you cut across me in mid-sentence, I feel, you know, I feel upset and annoyed. So I'd like you to allow me to finish my sentence just giving that as an example, so that we can work together as a good team. But no, people don't say what's wrong with them, even if you ask them nothing, I'm fine, you know, with the face that would stop. So it's the simple things. I haven't really doing. You know rocket science in any of my work. It's the simple things.

Speaker 2 32:56

And when you say people say they like me. That's why I'm not insulting anyone. That's why they like me, because if they do, it's the things that they can maybe relate to. I relate to them myself. Everybody doesn't relate to everything I say and doesn't agree with me. But I love to see good communication. And you do see aggressive communication still. And of course you do see passive communication as well, people who let people walk on them. You know it's really about assertive communication, respecting the boundaries of others. You know it's lovely things. You know you prefer to get their needs met through cooperation rather than demanding. You know, isn't that lovely Like? Isn't that the way it should be? Know when to speak, how to speak and what to say. Friendliness want firm yes, but gracious.

Speaker 1 33:54

There's a friend of mine who used to talk about that where to draw that from and she used to use the phrase we don't love enough in school, and what she meant was we don't use the word love enough in school. Without love in a school, I don't think a school can function properly at all. You know, at its best and that we have to look at how we use love in school. It's very profound. Yes, it is have to look at how we use love in school. It's very profound. Yes, the thing that would have been, you know, yes loves you and I love you.

Speaker 1 34:23

You know I'll be all thrown out, but yes, but the principal years ago I'd said it to me. I thought it's very, it was very powerful and he was talking about it was actually a child who got love and he couldn't behave. And he says you know, paddy, whatever, we love you here.

Speaker 1 34:39

Yes, I wanted to and I said, god, this is a big man who had said, I said that's powerful. Now, powerful, I'm just saying we love you here and and, uh, we want the best for you and that, and it got this person, your colleague of mine. She used to always say we don't use the word enough in schools and I think what you're talking about there is.

Speaker 1 34:56

You know it doesn't have to be the kids talking about. You know how do you get that across to colleagues and to, you know, the other adults who use the school and the parents, and that it's profound and it's effective. But finding the words around that and the communication around that can be very, very tricky.

Speaker 2 35:13

Well, I suppose you have to explain what it is and, in terms of communication, I suppose it is people who communicate in an open way. It's not very much part of being able to show love, open, honest, caring, harmonious. They're lovely things there. It's about, you know, promoting clarity and sincerity and things. All those words are love, I think. Clarity, sincerity, you know, encouraging people without exploitation or hurt, you know, so encouraging them is another love word.

Speaker 1 35:51

An act of love? Yes, indeed.

Speaker 2 35:53

And promoting optimal well-being and minimum rumination. Not encouraging people to go over and over things in their head what they've done wrong, but promote optimal well-being where they can see themselves in the best light. You know so love, if you ask me, you know, but if you say it as your colleague said it, you have to really. People need explanations of things. Unfortunately, when they get it, they begin to see the wider explanation or meaning of love. I think Spot on.

Speaker 1 36:27

Yeah, just to communicate exactly what's meant by it, where we see it and how we see it, would you believe we were wondering. You know what are the questions about? Our conversation has gone on a different trajectory than I thought, but I found it absolutely fascinating.

Enhancing Communication Skills Through Self-Awareness

Speaker 1 36:42

Oh thank you very much and you are an example of great communication, I can tell you. Can I ask you a final question? So I'm a teacher going into school. I want to improve my communication. What tips can you give me? How can I improve my communication skills? I want to be better at it. Where do I start? Give me something simple.

Speaker 2 37:01

Well, I suppose you have to start with a kind of self-awareness in relation to your communication style. If you can do that, you can see where you need to improve. So I suppose minimising the gap, I think, is very important between how you see yourself and how others see you. So, in other words, with your communication, if you say something, ask you know, know how did that come out, how did that sound? Minimizing the gap, because when you're communicating effectively, that's where you feel you're doing things well.

Speaker 2 37:35

Revisit something maybe that you said or did and you're not quite happy about. A lot of people ruminate, you know, about themselves when they're not sure because, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh God, I made a show of myself there. Now I'm guilty of that. Still, at this stage, when I should be confident enough not to introspect in a critical way, I still do. Oh God, I shouldn't have said that. You've heard me saying it probably two or three times here when I'm talking to you. So it's revisiting what you said, asking yourself if you could have responded in a better way. So if you are really thinking you did something wrong, say how could I improve on it, rather than going down into the hole with it Asking oh, it's really important to get to know yourself, to have trusted, honest people around you and leaders all need trusted, honest people around them that you can ask them how you, how you handle that, how you did, or whatever, and they will give you a straight answer. I think that's very important and number one always when you are self-analysing, it's very important to recognise your strengths as well as your area's need of improvement, because we can go down the rabbit hole of saying, oh, I always get things wrong, oh, I'm good for nothing, and you know, it's a pity we couldn't have done a little bit about the different types of communication in terms of the passive, submissive people who always question themselves, always worried that they've got it wrong, and they end up not getting their needs met. They end up being controlled or abused or ignored or ridiculed. So they end up losing their self-esteem, losing their confidence, losing their potential and losing their opportunities. So it's really getting in touch with yourself and often people who don't get in touch with themselves, they're left with guilt and shame and anxiety and helplessness and hopelessness and all of that. So it's really really important to get to know yourself. A lot of people who are passive, submissive communicators. They never examine themselves except in a negative context. And really it is about looking at yourself in a different way. Really important.

Speaker 2 39:55

The emotional intelligence is really so, so important. You know the emotional, the new fangles, as somebody said. But it's just quite simply, when a bad emotion hits you, you either do something about it, deal with it or let it go. That's the kind of three things. And I give the example of the car park. Christmas Eve. This happened Running down for the last ingredient for the pudding or whatever I was doing on the Christmas Eve Brandy butter, I don't know what it was, and anyway I'm queuing up for the space in the supermarket and of course it's jammed.

Speaker 2 40:32

And of course, the family. Do you ever notice the family when they're getting? They take their time. If someone's waiting for me, I'm throwing in the coming, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm throwing in the eggs and everything to get out. But they're talking no darling, no, santa's not coming till tomorrow. No, darling, but I'm fine, I'm very patient. I know I'm going to get the spot Out.

Speaker 2 40:52

The car comes Back. It comes, I have to reverse back and in shoots another car. Now that is definitely going to produce a negative emotion. We won't go into the details of it, except to say that you're ready to scream and you're cursing and swearing in the car. Three options you can do something about it so I can get out of my car, I can get up. I can tap on the window. I can get up. I can tap on the window. I can say to the person excuse me, you may not have realized it, but I have been waiting for the last 10 minutes for that spot. But there are times doing something about it isn't an option, because you look into the window in that scenario and you say, no, I won't be saying anything to that person, so that's gone. Now you have to hold on to it.

Speaker 2 41:49

Anger upset, go in, rattle the trolleys, throw in three extra bottles of wine, give out about the checkout person and then drive home like a lunatic and in the door. You won't believe what happened to me. So I'm bringing that all the way around and home. And that's a common thing with people who haven't got emotional intelligence. But the other one is the one we have to learn. It's not instant Let go Now. I wouldn't be able to let go that instance that I told immediately I'd still have to probably put in the wine I still have to maybe give out on the way. But I have a philosophy I let my anger go. Three roundabouts before home. Now loads of people have heard me telling this story, so it's not a new one. Three roundabouts before home. So sometimes I am the mad woman being seen going round and round and round the roundabout the third one before home, because I'm not going to bring it home.

Speaker 2 42:52

I did a lot of words with guards down to there, every guard that was promoted I'd be grand if I get into trouble because I know them all Every guard that was promoted to sergeant, sergeant or some other status, I can't remember. They had me for a session and one of them said to me I was telling that story. Excuse me, where do you live? I told him. He said, just like to remind you you're not supposed to go around. But you know, isn't that lovely. It's so simple compared to you know, the notions of emotional intelligence being so complicated. It's just managing anger and upset and the options that you have and I I love the social intelligence. If we can, if you want to finish, we'll finish on it, because I often finish on it. People say again, the people who say we have no time for those. But a newfangled intelligence is. Especially when I mentioned social intelligence, one fellow said to me isn't it enough with the emotion of what's the social?

Speaker 1 43:50

How are you having on the social?

Speaker 2 43:52

I said when is that now coming to vogue? I said, well, the first time I said this I read about it. It had come from 1920,. I said 1920? I said yes.

Speaker 2 44:06

A wonderful psychologist called Thorndike who described it as the ability to act wisely in human relations. Now I have this off by heart because this is one of my regulars if I'm doing emotional intelligence the ability to act wisely in human relations, because social intelligence is about getting on with others. You know, getting on with others it's a social end of it. It's about making others feel the better for an encounter with you. And you know yourself. If you're walking down the street and you see certain people coming towards you, you're waving oh, oh, how are you? Because you know they're going to make you feel the better of the encounter. And then there are other persons that you see coming and you cross the road because you know they're going to do the exact opposite, showing social anxiety. They show empathy and understanding, they admit to being wrong.

Speaker 2 45:02

Isn't that a lovely thing to have to be able to say look, this is so liberating. You know, if you do something wrong or say something wrong, instead of covering it up, which I would do some of the time, but I'm learning. I mean, it's still learning at my age To be able to say, oh, I'm sorry, love, I got that wrong, you know, and I'd argue the toss with my husband about who you know, who wrote that book or whatever, and I'd stick to my guns and you know beforehand I'd be kind of slithering out of it when I'd find he was right. Now I say, oh, I'm sorry, love, I got that wrong. It's just liberating, isn't it.

Speaker 1 45:39

Isn't it Jules, there you go. There you go. Well, look itinta Kit. Can I just say it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you and listening to you in the last 45 minutes. Would you believe it's been a real pleasure. And do you know what we could do? 10 episodes on Jacinta Kit alone?

Speaker 1 45:56

You've been an absolute gem, jacinta. Go raibh míle, míle maith agat ó chraí. Go raibh máith agat. And there's so many bits now for teachers to listen to and maybe re-listen to on this podcast, to take tips away to make their life more enjoyable and to get more out of it for the kids in their care.

Speaker 2 46:13

To make it a pleasure.

Speaker 1 46:15

Go raibh maith agat, Jacinta.

Speaker 2 46:16

Go raibh míle maith agat Tuféin, and thanks to Zita come on.

Speaker 1 46:20

Oh, and I've had her fun about our family Tune in next week for another episode of Teachers Themselves. If you're enjoying this season, you can go back and find episodes from season one or two. All well worth a listen. Please don't forget to subscribe, share with colleagues and friends, leave us a review or send us a message. Your feedback informs the show. You can follow us across our social media channels Instagram, twitter, linkedin. Facebook Links are in the show notes. If you have any thoughts on today's episode or suggestions for future topics, you can email Zita here at zrobinson at dwecie. That's zrobinson at dwecie. Oh, and, as always, don't forget to book your CPD at dwecie. Hop online at dwec ie to book your CPD. Mi na mhaith agaibh raiste have a great week slán tamall.

Speaker 2 47:30

Teachers Themselves is a D, w, e C original produced and created by Dublin West Education Centre. Thank you.