144- Your Behaviour Is The Problem (With Guest Fabrizio Zumbo, MBA from Vanguard)

In this episode Benjamin is joined by guest host Fabrizio Zumbo, MBA who joins us from Vanguard. 

Fabrizio is an expert in behavioural biases and investment management and shares the main behavioural mistakes that nearly all investors make. 

He explains why many investors don't receive the returns they are entitled to and your behaviour is to blame. 

Resources mentioned in the episode: 

SPIVA - Here are the market insights that Fabrizio mentioned in the podcast, which demonstrate that active management and trying to outperform the markets rarely works out in practise. 

Join Benjamin Mitchell (themoneyscot), serial hater of financial jargon, as he helps make your finances clearer and ensures you never make another financial mistake.

Getting on top of your personal finances doesn't need to be complicated or scary. Arm yourself with the only knowledge you need to transform yourself from money novice to money nerd! 

Take my 5 minute retirement assessment (can you already afford to retire?) 🚀


Disclaimer - please note that nothing in this podcast can be relied upon as financial advice and the content is provided purely for information and guidance purposes. Please seek independent, regulated financial advice relevant to your situation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello, money nerds, and welcome to another episode of Heads Up on Money. It is me, Benjamin Mitchell. Hope you've all had a good week and all are staying sane out there. I am delighted this week that it's not just one of those episodes where it's just me talking at you. We've had a few of those episodes recently. We covered recently the legal stuff around your financial plan, wills, power of attorneys, all of the arguably boring financial stuff you need to nail down before you tackle some of the more exciting stuff. And I'm delighted that today we're going to cover some of the more exciting stuff. We're back into the world of investing and how investing can achieve your financial life goals. And I've got an amazing guest on the podcast today. He and I have been in talks for a number of months. He's a very busy man. So I'm very delighted that he's given up half an hour of his busy schedule to have a chat to us today. I'm welcomed by Fabrizio Zumbo. I hope I'm pronouncing his surname correctly. He'll tell me in a minute if it's incorrect. Um, Fabrizio works for a little known asset manager you may have heard of by the name of Vanguard. I'm being a bit facetious here, guys, because we all know Vanguard is possibly the biggest player in the world of investment and asset management. It's almost a household name as far as investment managers come. And I love Vanguard. They're one of the fund managers that I use in the portfolios for my clients. And the reason, of course, is they are aligned with all of the rhetoric I give to you every week around the fact that time in the markets beats timing the markets. And Fabrizio comes today with a very interesting angle to share with us around the subject of behavioural biases and how that arguably can have a bigger determinant in your long-term financial success than some of the things that we tend to stress about, such as which stocks do we invest in, how do we asset allocate, all of those things that we worry about when in reality our behaviors and misbehaviors, as Fabrizio will come on to, are actually the things that will determine our long-term financial success. So I've got a few things to chat through with Fabrizio today. Fabrizio comes to us with a wealth of experience, having worked with many household names in and around personal finance and financial services, such as Strait Street, sorry, State Street and PWC. But Fabrizio has been in our personal finance space, the world that we know money and urge for over a decade now. He brings lots of experience from a research and practical angle. So I'm sure you will be delighted for me to welcome him to this week's episode. Fabrizio, first of all, did I murder your surname? And second, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

No, thank you, Benjamin. Thank you very much first and foremost for the invitation and secondly, very good Italian accent. You nailed it. Thank you. For a Scottish, it's very good. So uh I'll take that. I'll take that. Thank you very much uh for for the invitation. Uh it's great to be here and it's great to talk to um self-directed investors, which uh um that this fauna is growing more and more uh and um having good behavior, uh it's very important, as you were saying at the beginning, in order to uh you know to keep in check your emotions and to we're gonna talk about a little bit more. Uh but uh yeah, just um an introduction very quickly. Uh you uh you said almost everything. I spent 15 years in research, the last 12 in the asset and wealth management industry, different uh senior position uh at Stay Street, where I was the responsible for the thought leadership, European Thought Leadership Program, PWC as well. I was part of a research uh research team as a director uh lately at Servili Associate. I was the director in Europe for uh the um asset and wealth management research and and consulting. And uh two years ago I joined Vanguard. Um and I work uh in since April 2024, so just turned two years old at Vanguard. Uh and I'm part, I'm a member, I'm one of the founding members of the Advisory Research Center, uh, which is an internal think tank that Vanguard decided to launch two years ago in order to, with the aim of producing insight research in order to provide uh this research and this insights to you know the advisors. Why we do that? Because advisors, so I'm I'm not sure you know the structure of Vanguard, but it's it's a kind of a mutualistic structure. So the owners of Vanguard are our investors, yeah? Uh the guy on the streets, let's say. They are intermediated by the advisors, right? The advisor community. So Vanguard believed that if we provide good knowledge, good expertise, a good insight to the intermediaries, right, the advisors, they will cascade this knowledge to their clients, the and investors who are our owners, by the way, right? So it's a win-win uh situation here. So we believe that if we provide this in this insight and this research, actionable insight to the advisor community, they will bring this to their clients, and their clients will have a better outcome uh in the future. And and that's all about me. I can talk hours, but I think is is is more for a for when we have a pint at a pub, uh, maybe with this good weather. But let's let's spark it for a moment.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Indeed, indeed. No, that's a great thank you for the for the introduction there, Fabrizio. Um I I think you know we're we've got a lot of good things to talk about today because we both kind of sit on the same side of the fence here, in that we we both believe that the the ultimate success of an investor's journey will come down to how they manage their behaviours. And I've talked a little bit about behavioural biases and some of the some of the kind of examples of relevant biases that we'll talk about today, but you are far greater expertise in this area than me. This is very much the the world that you live and breathe in around the lens of personal finance. So I think really just to get things started off is you know, for for our listeners here today, some of them will be aware of behavioral finance and the role that might have on their investments. But do you want to maybe just give us an introduction as to what exactly is meant by behavioral bias? And more importantly, why do investors need to be aware of it?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yeah, well, it's a great question to break the ice. And uh let me let me let me start saying that uh our brain, uh our human brain, is a very is a beautiful organ and it's very, very complex. And uh different studies from the academic world uh find uh found out that uh an average uh human brain takes around between as an average 33,000 to 35,000 of decisions per day, right? So this could be overwhelming uh even for the human brain, which is very complex and beautiful. And um to avoid to avoid you know uh short circuit, right, the brain tend to tends to take shortcuts, right, when it takes this decision. And these shortcuts, so these decisions are made on the basis of these shortcuts, which are based constantly on memory or or feelings. Uh these shortcuts as what uh are uh are called heuristics by behavioral scientists. I would strongly suggest uh to your audience to read uh Daniel Kahneman, uh Nobel Prize a few years back, 2012. I think uh he died in 2024, but he's one of the father of uh you know um the behavioral finance uh branch of knowledge. He wrote a very good book a few years back, which is called Thinking Fast and Slow. It's a compendium of behavioral biases and how they can affect your way of investing on thinking about your life. So I would strongly suggest to read that. But what these so what these heuristics are and this this uh shortcut. So you take this shortcut based on memory or feeling, right? But this situation, because the the brain is not able to analyze the situation fully, right, use memory or feeling to make this decision. When you are about to make this decision, and now we come to the the behavioral biases, it creates behavioral biases, biases, which are actually a bias, is an irrational belief or inclination that influences our judgment, decision, or behavior. Right? And the beautiful minds of Daniel Kahneman, and at that time in 1972, we wrote a very good paper with Mr. Tresky as well. So they come up with this idea that the brain is made of two different systems, system one and system two. And they started system one, let's say, is our instinct, the human instinct. It's very reductive what I'm what I'm saying, but it's kind of it can be considered as the human instinct, while the other part, system two, what is the part that feels stuff, right? So depending on the the you know, these two different categories of behavioral biases, which are cognitive or emotional, it depends. They're classified like this, depending on where they come from, where they're generating from. So cognitive, usually, the cognitive bias usually has a bias resulting from faulty reasoning, memory information processing, or statistical errors, right? System one. Yeah. Uh system two creates some other type of biases which are called emotional biases, which are biases resulting from you know emotional factors such as mood, uh, feeling and emotions, right? And uh many times, I mean, it happens to me, it happens to anyone, that I read something that really resonates what I'm thinking, and I keep reading it. This is why the system too is sending signals, say, keep reading, because this is very in line with what you think. Now, say that uh these biases um in the decision-making process of investing, there should be a rational one. Um it's detrimental, the behavior that could result from from these uh from these biases. And our our research, evidence-based research that we've we've done at Vanguard and in my team, um, we found two main, let's say, um, you know, uh attitude or behavior, uh, which are detrimental that humans tend to do when it comes to investing, but they're detrimental. One is they tend to chase performance instead of uh you know focusing on on the long term. So they use performance uh records, you know, parameters to select their investment. Yeah, and this could lead to a very detrimental uh effect, which could be you know concentrating too heavily the portfolios, or just buying something because it's growing, or even selling something because is the price is is going down. So the illustration of this, uh, we've done some experiments, some analysis, and actually we took how can I explain this? It's not Fabrizio Zumbo saying it, because we took and we analyzed uh the performance of active uh mutual funds for three years, right? And we classified them according to performance. So best performance, quartile one, quartile, so quartile best performance, quartile one of performance, quartile two, quartile three, and worst performance, right? And what we realize, which is kind of normal, I would say, is that the best performance we're gathering more flows, right? So the it's normal because something is going up, people want to jump on the on the vagin, but the reality, uh, this is detrimental. Why? Because after the three years of this analysis, we said, wait a minute, let's have a look what happened to this same the same funds after three years that the very good performance. And what we realize is just is just 9.4% of those funds that were categorized quartile one of performance stayed in quartile one of performance. 52.8.2 sorry of the percentage of these funds ended up in the bottom quartile. So what does mean? Keeping performance is very difficult. If you lead if you read SPIVA, uh SP 500, SP, you know, the SPIVA, uh, the SPIVA reports, you you realize it. But selecting investments, just using one parameter, we find looking at other parameters is very detrimental. So this is the the the problem number one. But there is another there is another another problem, is that because of the existence of the behavioral biases, when there is volatility or there is some concern, the issue is that investors, because of their trading in and trading out, they are not even able to gather the returns that the funds they are investing in are delivering it. And this is technically uh, let's say, let's call it a formula, which is the IRR, internal rate of returns of a fund, is what the funds get, minus the TWR, which is the time weighted return. It means what the usual investor gets, right? So we add the time, a time uh parameter in in this analysis. And the difference between these two is what we call it behavioral gap. Because if you stay invested, right, and you don't care of the about the noise of the market, because the market is going up, is going down, right? If you don't care, you will get the returns of the fund. But in reality, investors don't even get this because they see volatility, they get out the fund, they they see the the fund going back again, they come back again, so they try to time the market. But timing the market is futile, as you said, and you need to be five times right in order to time the market properly. You need to find a good indicator, a reliable indicator that says, okay, now you get out of the market, right? But then you have to to find the indicator and say, okay, but which part of the portfolio, right? So it's the second time you need to be right. The third time is okay, now I found another another uh parameter that tell me now it's time to re-enter the market. All right, but the third question, the fourth question is which with which part of the the portfolio I should re-enter the market, and the fifth uh uh element is I need to do all this trade at the cost that is good for me, right? So um this is normally what happens in uh in uh uh in investors' minds one when they invest. And um and and and actually we we did an experiment. Uh we are an evidence-based, we work in research with evidence-based uh type of guys. So we did an experiment and we observed 60,000 self-directed investors during a period of five years, right? And we compared their trading, so it is coming in and coming out of the market during five years. What we realized is that those investors who made just one adjustment, they tried during these five years, they made just one adjustment, right? Trying to time the market, yeah. And the result is that the the same investor lost between 104 and 150 basis points, right? Wow. If you multi if you multiply these for uh 10 years, 20 years, your investment horizon, this is a lot of money lost just because you let your emotion coming in and playing with your brain.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah, I mean I think there's there's so many things to unpack there, and I think the most notable is I I like that analogy of the the the five times you need to be right. Um, it's a it's an interesting one for me, Fabrizio, because I've often say to clients, you need to be right twice, you need to know when to come out, and you need to know when to come back in. But as you've rightly said, there's even more layers to that which can really bring clients into muddy water. Um, and I think uh just to reinforce what you're saying around the returns of an individual investor versus the return of the actual fund that they're invested in, I think that's probably the best metric we have to evidence the irrationality of the human brain. I don't know if you agree.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, yeah, completely, completely agree. Yeah, and uh we we we believe that we are rational, uh rational, uh, you know, rational, but sometimes it's it's very difficult to keep this emotion in in check because investing is intrinsically uh you know emotional. Why? Because it's not just money, there's goals, right? There is the uh you know the the fees for my daughter uh for the university or the buying of a house or grandchildren, you know, is it's not just money, right? Yeah, um it's very important to to understand the why you are investing, right? And when you understand the why you're investing, then you set it up um everything, you know, the time horizon and and the things, and you look at the outcomes, right? You don't look at the market. You you have a long-term, uh, you have a long-term um approach, uh, and and the the market, I mean who can control the market? You cannot control the market, but you can control your uh you know, your behavior, you can control what to do, you cannot control the market, and the market goes up and down, and we know it.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yes. And on the topic of of behavior, if there are any listeners listening today and they're thinking, yep, I understand what behavioral finance is, but I don't think I'm guilty of any of these mistakes that you're pointing out, Fabrizio. Well, let's maybe get into the weeds a little. I know you've got a few examples of these biases that investors may recognize themselves having done. I mean, holding my hands up here, there are a few here that I have also fallen to because I am also an irrational human. Um, but yeah, do you want to maybe just walk us through some examples?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, of course. Um, I thought about five uh B R biases. Just bear in mind if you read Kahneman, there's more than 200 uh codified biases, right? And this is just the beginning because there are much more in reality. But I want to focus on five, if is that okay with you, which are let's say the most relevant, the most relevant for investors. Uh, and I'm pretty sure uh many many of your listeners will will really recognize in what what what I'm saying. I feel recognized as well. It happens to me, it happens to anyone. Um I would start with present bias, right? Present bias, which means uh overweighting short-term gain over long-term reward, right? Which means um just wanted to give you a real word example is you want to buy a new car, right? You have a you already have a car, but you want to buy a new car. You find the perfect the perfect model, you know what you want, you know the color, you know everything. The only things that you don't have is the money to pay in cash. So you have two options, right? One, you finance it by you paying interest on it, or you wait until you have saved enough and then you buy the car. Because you already have a car rationally, you already have a car who drives you from point A to point B. There's no it's not rational to buy an additional you know interest, paying more money for something that you already have, right? So this means overweighting short-term gain because I want a new car now, right? So this is a bias which you know push you to buy that car and to take this debt, right? But in reality, you could wait, you save, you pay. This would be rational. Saving, paying cash, driving the new car in a month or maybe two. So what this lead to you know, the investment in the investment world in investment investors' minds is choosing an investment strategy based solar solely on recent performance, right? Or failing to recognize actually the importance of saving to reach long term goals and you know preferring immediate spending, I would say, compared to saving, which is very, very important uh as you know, in order to build your wealth in the in the long term, in the long term.

unknown 21:59

So

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Present bias, number one. Um number two, I would I would like to talk about the anchoring bias, right? Which means making an investment decision based on an irrelevant data point, which usually becomes an anchor for future decision and is the last piece of information that you got, right? An example of this, Mag 7 are growing, they have been growing. So I consider, I believe that they will keep growing in the future, right? So this could lead, you know, in uh in investors' minds in the my mindset in you know developing skewed return expectations based on this. It's an irrelevant data point, but it's the newest one, right? It's irrelevant because we know the stocks uh goes up, can flatten, can go down, but is not sure that it will go up and up forever, all right? Or you know, another another behavior could be you know buying an overvalued investment, right? Just because it's up in price or selling an undervalued investment without looking at why I'm doing that and why um why I'm doing this, why I'm selling or why I'm buying, without looking at the long term. Is this in line with my financial plan, for example? Herding is another one. I love it. They some people call it FOMO, right? Is the like following the group to avoid danger or the fear of missing out, which actually means FOMO. Uh I want to buy Bitcoin because Bitcoin is the uh real example. Bitcoin is uh is very it's very fashionable now, but not not very much, but in in this few in the last few years, uh this is a clear behavior that we saw uh in investors, uh in investor you know attitude toward toward investing. Um this could lead to you know trying to time the market, and I already mentioned to you it's very, very difficult. You need to be right five times, switching away from you know your long-term investment plan because you saw this hot investment that you want to chase. So, this is an example of FOMO. Uh FOMO is is prevalent, uh, would that say in investor decision-making process. And then overconfidence, this is another thing that is very, very common, which means overestimating our knowledge, skill of judgment in doing something, for example, in selecting stocks or selected investments. Uh, this could lead to you know speculative investments just because we're overconfident that this this uh trade, this investment, this fund will make money. Uh concentrating too heavily on certain sectors of security, the example of AI, right now it could be very, very uh explanatory, uh, or again attempting to time to time the market again. And then the last one is uh loss aversion. Um psychologists consider uh that uh you know losses tend to hard twice more than the equivalent gain. So if you gain a thousand pound uh thousand pounds is not the same as losing a thousand pounds. Actually, losing it means that you it is twice, hard twice more than the same amount of gain. Um and this could lead to uh you know reacting to short-term, short-term market volatility, uh failing to remain invested, um, or inappropriate sale or of uh you know of an asset due due to losses of volatility. You you need to you need to remember that the human being, the evolution of human being, happened faster because the human being tends to protect the species from risks compared to you know exposing the species, you know, the human being to risk. So exposing yourself to risk, uh major risk, not always, at least in the human evolution, brings to a faster evolution, I would dare to say. And this is an explanation of loss herbation. This is why we have um we have this in uh in our DNA, I would dare to say. And actually, I have a question for you uh in this case. Sorry, I'm asking the question right now. So do you do you know the uh deal or not or not or not deal? Do you know the the TV show actually? So let's say I do, I do let's say we are in the final stage of of this and you have two two envelopes, two boxes or whatever they are, right? One is with one pound and one is with 250,000 pounds, right? And then the bunkers call you up and say, Okay, uh Benjamin, I'll offer you a thousand uh um sorry, a hundred and twenty thousand. What would you select? What would you pick? The would you continue or you take the 120k?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I think I would and most people would Fabrizio, we would we would take the money and run because the downside seems terrifying. Yeah the regret would be would be real.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, and this is loss aversion, particularly if I come back to to my place and I have to hear my wife telling me Fabrizio, why do you tell me you didn't take the 120k? Yes, yeah, so yeah, yeah. This is this is an example of loss aversion playing out, yeah. And I think these are the the main, you know, the main uh yeah. I mean again, I can talk for hours, uh, but I think we need a couple of days to go through all the 200 codified behavior biases.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah. I think I just to get your your thought on one of one of the phrases I often say to my clients um is the phrase temptation to tamper. And what I mean by that is when it comes to personal finances, it's one of the few things in life where the less meddling you do, yeah, the the better it will be for you. I think there's various metaphors that go around, but things like your portfolios, like a bar of soap, and the more you touch it, the worse it will be. Um that is hard for people because most common in life is you want to be proactive, you want to do more, you want to build your knowledge, you want to be seen to be doing something. In the world of personal finance, that's that's often often not the case. Just keen to get your two cents on on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, and and not I completely agree with you. And standing, I mean, uh, not doing anything, it doesn't mean standing still, right? Because you're you know, your your product, if you buy, for example, a multi-asset or uh uh an MPS, your product are uh at work. Maybe there could be a dip in the performance, but the the product is still there and is working in the in the in the background. Um usually the human being when there is risk, yeah, there is a risk, um, any type of risk. You know, you have uh um you have a dog barking in front of you. The first thing is the first signal that your brain tells you your your body is running, yeah, run as fast as you can. But in reality, we know that if a dog is barking, you don't run, right? But your brain tells you run. But standing still, right, not doing nothing in that specific case, but also in investing, is the best uh is the best um options. And and why is that when it comes to the investing? Because um we did a study uh and uh um we found that usually the recovery, you know, the the dips in the market and the recoveries, and we saw uh during the the last you know the what what is happening in the in the uh in oil prices or liberation day and all these kind of things, usually the good and bad days in the mark in the market are clustered together. So if you make a move when the market is going down, most probably the recovery will happen very soon and you miss it, right? And if you miss this, you the you know the returns that you will have at the end of the 30 years or 20 years that you're investing will be less, and they will be affected by these behaviors that you had in a specific moment, particularly when there is volatility, which make I mean makes no sense. We need to still you know keep our uh emotion in check, uh discipline uh in investing is very, very important. As I mentioned to you before, we cannot control how the market moves, but what we can control how we react to this movement, to this news.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, so maybe just final question really for you, and I try not to make this a leading question, but um, you know, is is is behavior one of the key determinants to an investor's successful journey? Is it the most um the most important part? Where where do you kind of sit sit on that?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I I would agree with you, and uh and actually we asked, um, as part of one one of the research that I've done, we asked more than a thousand advice investors in this case, right? Not an investors, uh, and more than 200 advisors uh in the UK, right? And uh and we asked actually, what is the impact of providing behavioral behavioral coaching? This is an advisor who provides behavioral coaching to their client, and 90% of advisors, uh um, so nine out of ten of advisors told us that the impact of behavioral coaching on their client investment success is very positive or positive. And then we asked the same question to the advice clients, right? And six out of ten investors, so between six and seven uh out of ten investors, uh, stated that the impact was positive of uh or very positive. So I would say that behaviors and you know the provision of the behavioral behavioral coaching, not just by the advisor, but you know, by myself, just cooling down, think about it, and not taking actions when there is a risk, I think is is is very, very important. We tested it and actually advisors and and investors they agree that it has a huge impact on the long-term success of their of their investments.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, yeah. No, well, I think it's um it's nice probably for the listeners just to hear this from from from you rather than me every week because you're coming at this through the lens of actual academic research, which should give end investors huge, huge confidence.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I'm glad. Um I'm glad to hear that. And uh again, Benjamin, thank you very much for for for this invitation. So um I'm I remain at your disposal in case you need me or or whatever you you would need.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, no, that is that is um fantastic. Um, thank you again for your time today. It's been very interesting for me to listen to this, and I'm sure it will also be for the listeners. I'll include some some information just in the show notes about yourself, Fabrizio, and um the team you sit in within Vanguard. There's tons of resources out there for investors who are either advised investors, whether they have a financial advisor or whether they are end investors navigating this journey alone. We're all irrational human beings together, and there's lots of information out there. I'll also include a link to some of the content you you discussed there, Fabrizio, about the SPIVA research. I think that's an interesting one just to share with clients. I I share it with clients quite often, looking at the whole active versus passive debate and the trends around active fund managers and how they may have one year where they are absolutely delivering plus plus plus, but then the next year they're back down to the bottom quartile. So I'll share that also for the listeners because I think as you as you rightly pointed out, it's a it's a great, a great resource. Um, is there anything else you would like to get across today before we wrap up for Beatsio?

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Um well, I mean, I I think my my message is my message is just just to wrap it up is discipline, right? Uh discipline is key um in uh in achieving the investor long-term goals. And uh disciplines means also not just putting money in your in in the market every time you you can, but it's also meaning keep emotion in check. It is part of this. And I think the most important things for investors to understand is that they are investing for like 20-30 years. Uh the ups and downs of the market is a future of the market itself, of the market themselves, right? So uh they will face this, they will experience this, but and they cannot control it. The only things that an investor can control is the reaction to these events. If you look at if you look at the markets with a long-term perspective, right, and you look at 20-30 years back, if you didn't touch the money that you have invested in 2000, for example, you have much more money now if you've been coming in and coming out in the product that you have, or out of the market, bail into cash, or or you know, um taking some emotionally driven decision in a particular moment where most of the time is volatility related.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah. Yep, excellently summarized. I mean, I think we're just telling people here that this is one of the rare occasions in life where being a bit half-arced, going a bit easier on yourself, doing less is often more. Um, and you don't get that much in life. So I think take the opportunity. But no, um, again, thank you. Thank you, Fabrizio. I'm sure we'll we'll have you back on the podcast in the future because you've got tons of resources that could be beneficial for listeners. Um, but thank you again for giving up the time because as I said at the start, I know you are incredibly, incredibly busy. Thank you very much, and uh it's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah, thank you, Benjamin.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Well, thank you, Money Nerds, as always, for listening. I hope you did enjoy that conversation today with Fabrizio. Please let me know if it was of interest. And as always, if someone in your life would find this information helpful, whether they're new to investing or a seasoned veteran, do share it with your family, your friends, and your loved ones. I'll see you next Friday for another episode. It rolls around also quickly. But in the meantime, stay safe out there and thanks for your attention. Take care, money nerds. See you next week. Goodbye. Bye. Bye, everyone.