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the uplift
Summer session with Machiavelli
For our summer session we’re running a fan favorite playlist: a combination of the most-listened-to episodes as well as listener favorites. Our Summer Session gives you a chance to revisit episodes you may not have heard in a while or even to listen to episodes you might have missed.
Today we're replaying Episode 23: Mentors & Allies: How to be Machiavellian without being a Machiavellianne. The episode draws heavily on the book Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith. I love the book -- grab your copy here if you don't have one already. And here's your link to the episode's original show notes.
If you're enjoying the podcast, enter a chance to win a free book! Head over to Apple podcasts (or your fave platform) and leave a review on the uplift page. Once a month I'll randomly select one of that month's reviewers to receive a $20 gift certificate to bookshop.org. You get more summer reading, and I get to help you build your library! It's a win for us both.
So grab a nice tall glass of your favorite summer beverage, pull up your favorite outdoor chair or grab your hammock, and enjoy a few moments of summer, on me. I’ll be somewhere doing the same. 😎
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I also coach women leaders (individually and in groups) and facilitate campus workshops. Learn more at the website.
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Hey there, welcome to Summer at the Uplift. For our summer session, we're running a fan favorite playlist a combination of the most listened to episodes as well as listener requests. Our summer session gives you a chance to revisit episodes you may not have heard in a while, or maybe even to listen to episodes you might have missed. You'll notice, at the end of each episode I tell you how you can be entered in a monthly drawing for a $20 gift certificate to bookshoporg. That's for real and that wasn't part of any of these original episodes. I added this giveaway because I was thinking what would summer be without a good reading list? So grab a nice tall glass of your favorite summer beverage, pull up your favorite outdoor chair, or even grab your hammock and enjoy a few moments of summer on me. I promise you I'm somewhere doing the same. Hey there, welcome to the Uplift podcast, where we talk all things leadership for women in higher ed. I'm Carol Shabryus and I want to help make your leadership path a little easier, a bit brighter and a hell of a lot more fun. Here at the Uplift, we mash up real stories, real feelings, real theory and occasional f**k bombs, all to help you become the kind of believing, awesome leader you would love to follow. I'm so glad you're here. Let's jump in. Hey friends, welcome to November and to episode 23 of the Uplift.
Carole Chabries:I have been thinking about the workplace for a long time and I think a lot about how it is that some workplaces are so memorable. We love our colleagues, we chase our curiosity and we feel fulfilled doing meaningful work, all while serving the larger purpose of the organization we're working for. Other workplaces are not so memorable, or they are, but for less wonderful reasons. We work with colleagues who promote toxicity through gossip or backstabbing. We report to bosses who disempower us through micro-management, through neglect or through general assholery. Or worse, we are silenced, policed, harassed or even discriminated against, with no repercussions for the perpetrators. We can be mistreated so subtly that we are what one colleague taught me is called constructively discharged, which is the term for making an employee's life so miserable that she chooses to leave. Or we can be fired outright, sometimes illegally and sometimes inexplicably. Ps. My heart goes out to those Twitter employees who were fired with no notice just last week.
Carole Chabries:So when I decided to devote a series of episodes to the ways women can support each other at work through supervising and mentoring, i envisioned talking about those strong relationships against this backdrop of the many ways women suffer in the workplace, and I knew I would take some grief for saying the ugly stuff out loud. There are folks in my network who consider it unprofessional of me to talk about this bluntly, and they consider it unseemly and indiscreet that I share actual stories of the ways women are mistreated by those in leadership or even those just around them, and I've decided that's okay, because not speaking up that is not okay. The ways women suffer and are steamrolled into silence and policed into submission are worth talking about, because not talking about it only serves to cover up the bulls*** nonsense that perpetuates that abuse. Right, this supports the oppressor, but even though this suffering needs to be faced head on and spoken out loud, it's actually not what I want to dwell on. So for the rest of this month, i have invited guests to join us and share real stories and examples of how women are using their positionality to promote empower, make space for and lift the women around them. To set the backdrop for all that, though, in today's episode I'm exploring just a little bit of the intersection of power and authority for women at work, and particularly what some of the worst cases look like, and then, briefly, a few quick actions all of us can take even this week to start to shift that paradigm a little bit.
Carole Chabries:My starting point for all of that, though, is an unlikely place. I'm going to look at this through the lens of Machiavelli's The Prince. I first read The Prince as a teenager, and I hated it. I re-read it more than 20 years later, when I took my first role as head of an organization, thinking that I would learn something useful from it, and nope, i still hated it. It's just so damn brutal, and it seemed totally irrelevant to who I am and what I do and how I want to be in the world. I am not a scholar of political theory or philosophy or Italian history, and so I don't have anything insightful to say about The Prince that hasn't been said before, and said much better. But someone else does. Her name is Stacey Vanick-Smith, and she wrote the book Machiavelli for Women, and I want to share just a little bit of that today. Like me, stacey first read Machiavelli's The Prince when she was a young student, and she hated it. But unlike me, stacey returned to The Prince as an adult, as a woman building a career with curiosity about power dynamics in the workplace, and she reinterprets Machiavelli through that lens, which has given me a fresh appreciation for his work.
Carole Chabries:In Machiavelli for Women, vanick-smith takes Machiavelli at his word. To lead, we have to stare truth in the face and be unflinching about what we see, and then, based on the lay of the land in front of us, we have to devise our machinations. And she makes the case that this is exactly how women need to approach the workplace. So here's the stuff that you can't really contest Gender discrimination is real, the gendered wage gap is real. The mommy tax is real. As real and as unfair and awful as all those things are for straight white women in the US. They are all so much worse for women with brown and black skin, for lesbians, queer black, bi and trans women, for women whose first language is not English, for women who are entering professions as the first in their families or social circles and don't have allies to support them. For a whole bunch of women it's worse.
Carole Chabries:But Vanick-Smith wants us to take Machiavelli's advice look those realities in the face and, instead of turning away, face the monster head on and respond in kind. At first this might sound ruthless, but in Smith's hands it's not ruthless, it's reasonable. As she points out, the workplace isn't fair and it's not okay, but that's the situation we're in. Her advice throughout the book is fascinating. She is really direct about the ways women are punished for being either too masculine that is, we're assertive, we're forceful, we're decisive and so on And also we're punished for being too feminine when we are soft-spoken or kind or helpful And in the workplace find themselves constantly navigating what she calls the hot box, that space between two options where, no matter which direction you turn, you're going to lose. What I hate most about the hotbox is the way some women, in their pursuit or exercise of power, force other women to suffer, and Vanneke-Smith devotes an entire section to this charmingly titled Women and the Dark Arts.
Carole Chabries:So let's start there with the four archetypes of terrible women in the workplace that Vanneke-Smith identifies. The first is the Highlander. The Highlander believes that power is limited. Only one person can have it, and in order to hold it herself, the Highlander has to eliminate all female competition. She does this by buying in. She enacts femininity, she does not threaten the patriarchy, she makes herself likeable and safe, except for other women, because while she's busy being a good girl for those in power. She's actively targeting other women, typically women who have or who are also seeking a position that she herself wants.
Carole Chabries:Next up is the Queen of Hearts. The Queen of Hearts is a smart, quick-witted woman who is arrogant, erratic and a little bit unhinged, which is where a lot of her power comes from. She can appear charismatic and magnetic, but her inner life is something of a hellscape. Vanneke-smith describes Queens of Hearts as deeply insecure, unbalanced and toxic. She goes on to say a Queen of Hearts is extremely status-conscious and will often abuse those below her and do whatever she can to erode the victim's self-confidence or leave her feeling humiliated. A previous colleague of mine refers to this as the shame and blame game.
Carole Chabries:Third is the Machiavellian, unironically named, the Machiavellian earns her title from the formal psychological personality type, machiavellianism. The Machiavellian is just as vicious and without a conscience as is the Queen of Hearts. She's a master manipulator and she uses other people's emotions to control them, but she's more dangerous. This type often has high levels of emotional intelligence and will use vulnerability, anger and hurt as a way to create loyalty, extract information and bend people to their will. They are typically charismatic, clever and charming and often have a little gang of ultra-loyal minions, but Machiavellians are not loyal to anyone. They are looking out for exactly one person. Everyone else is a chess piece and Machiavellians play to win.
Carole Chabries:Last up is the Darth Mentor, a mentor or manager who, once they've championed and supported you, feels ownership over you. This ownership then leaves the mentee unable to move forward or move on without breaking or damaging the relationship. The Darth Mentor is particularly insidious because the whole purpose of mentoring is guiding and supporting someone else. But the Darth Mentor makes the mentor relationship all about her and her power, and the unsuspecting and initially grateful mentee is the one who ends up suffering and powerless instead.
Carole Chabries:As awful as all these archetypes are for women at work, they are made even worse by white supremacy Because, honestly, as much as straight white women are not holding the majority of positions in power at colleges and universities, we hold more of those positions than do lesbian, queer, non-binary, brown and black-skinned women. And I would say, for my personal and unscientific observations, the younger the workforce is on a college campus, the more diverse it is, and yet I've seen at more than one institution those are the women being punished and policed and pushed out, which, statistically speaking, means our young and diverse workforce is being pushed out by older, more established straight white women. So the odds are, if you know a Highlander or a Queen of Hearts or a Machiavellian or a Darth Mentor, then you know her as a white woman, which is why it's so incumbent on white women in leadership positions at all levels to knock this shit off. And even here we can learn something from the Prince. Vanneke Smith writes Machiavelli greatly admired good leaders and the way he measured good leadership was by how well the people did under that leader. Were people happy? Did they prosper? Ultimately, machiavelli thought an ideal Prince created a place where people could do their best work, live their best lives and feel the support of their Prince, contributing to their prosperity and dignity. Collectively, they will be better, machiavelli writes, seeing themselves commanded by their own Prince and honored and esteemed by him.
Carole Chabries:Throughout the book, vanneke Smith offers up a range of behaviors you can engage in to deter, unsettle, distract or redirect these awful behaviors. And in fact this particular chapter on women in the dark arts is chock full of practical strategies you can employ when you encounter women of these sorts at work. So this is not really a book review, but highly recommend 10 out of 10. For now, i'm going to assume that, if you're listening, you've not only seen some of this in action, but you want very much not to be like this yourself. Now, i know we have very little control over how we are supervised. We do, however, have 100% control over how we treat and support others, and, given how Machiavellian and ugly the workplace can be for women, it is crucial that we provide top-notch mentoring to the women around us.
Carole Chabries:So, in preparation for the rest of the episodes coming up this month, let's turn to some things you can do intentionally as you build your leadership practice to create an environment where these kinds of toxic personalities would wither on the vine. And let me begin all this by saying you have to do something, and whatever you do, it's probably going to be uncomfortable. It is not enough for white women leaders to just show up as our well-meaning selves, believing that our good intentions and our good hearts are enough. They are not. They may not even be visible. We have to work every day to improve the professional paths and experiences of all the women around us, especially those who have less privilege than we do, no matter whether that privilege comes from job title, length of professional experience, the number of letters at the ends of our names, or the color of our skin or our ancestry or anything else.
Carole Chabries:If you are a woman in a leadership position, you owe it to the women around you to protect them from bad actors. And I'll go further If you are a woman with the power and authority to shape policy, you have an especially important role to play in improving the workplace itself for all of us. So my guests for the rest of this month will share insights into how they go about this in their daily practices. But as we wait to hear from them, i want to offer a few guideposts you can begin adopting now. I'm going to recommend you do two things Be an ally and be a mentor. And if those are new for you or if you're not sure where to start, i have a couple very quick and relatively easy recommendations for you. So how to be an ally? Look around at meetings. Look in particular for the women in the room and support them when they speak up.
Carole Chabries:Chime in if they get talked over or interrupted. Okay, so here's an example Susan says something in a meeting and you think it's a good idea. And Susan thought it was a good idea, or she wouldn't have mentioned it and the meeting just carries on. Try this, hey. I kind of liked where Susan was going a few minutes ago. I think her idea is worth exploring. Susan, can you take us back to that idea? or Let's say, janelle offered an idea that didn't really get any traction, but then a man picks it up a little bit later in the meeting and offers it as his own idea.
Carole Chabries:Try this, hey. Yeah, that's an interesting idea. It kind of sounds like what Janelle was saying earlier. Janelle, what do you think? Right, give her the floor back. Or maybe Maria was interrupted. Try this. I don't think Maria had a chance to finish her sentence. Maria, what were you saying? Notice the recurring themes here. I'm not suggesting you blame the person who interrupted or talked over or redirected the conversation. I'm simply giving you language to stay focused on the woman who was speaking and giving you a way to get back to her ideas. What do you do? You acknowledge her, you use her name and you simply open up the space so that she can step back into it in whatever way she wants to. So three quick ways to be an ally to a woman who's trying to make a point in a meeting and isn't getting any traction.
Carole Chabries:The other thing I'm gonna recommend you try is being a mentor, and I don't want you to be a mentor for a week, like that's not a thing. Mentorships are kind of long and complicated Relationships and they require both parties to have genuine involvement, and there's lots of ways to be a good mentor and a ton of good advice out there. So that's not what I'm really gonna talk about here. What I'm gonna suggest instead is that you be an informal mentor, just by modeling new ways of being that support women at work. So here are a couple easy things you can do that aren't necessarily mentoring in themselves, but because you're modeling inclusion and openness, you're setting the stage for mentoring relationships. So here are some ideas for you to consider this coming week.
Carole Chabries:Let's say you're in a meeting, invite the quiet women who aren't speaking to share their thoughts, and you can do this without making a big production out of anything. You can say something as simple as hey, rachel, i'm wondering what you think about this. You could also reach out to colleagues who are new to campus or maybe new in their professional field, ask them what they're interested in and offer to make an introduction or smooth a path for them to get involved in the thing They care about. Alternatively, if you've got a new colleague Especially a new colleague on campus who's not in your area, someone you might not come into Contact with through the normal course of your day, and invite her out to coffee or to lunch and get to know her as a person, I think it's really important that we go out of our way to meet colleagues who are not in our typical social professional circles. Seek out those new colleagues whose age or gender expression or skin color are unlike yours, get to know colleagues whose job function, whose area of expertise, whose professional levels and career backgrounds are Unlike yours, and start small. You don't have to go out and meet everybody next week, but choose one person who is outside of your typical work circle and invite her to coffee, just to get to know her, and then Expand your horizons from there.
Carole Chabries:So I'm gonna stop there, because the rest of the month is devoted to particularities about building strong Intersectional relationships with women at work. I just want you to take a few steps this week that you might not have taken otherwise. So for this week, my challenge for you is this find one situation Where you can extend support to another woman by making space for her to be herself. Sadly, i'm pretty confident you'll have multiple chances to see women being silenced or unappreciated or underutilized or Unacknowledged. Simply do one thing to correct that when it happens just once. I know from experience This is hard and it's uncomfortable, and I also know from experience It gets easier with time. And the important thing is, as you do it and other women see that it can be done, more women will start to do it too. So you get to build this kind of groundswell of support for each other just by modeling Alternative ways of behaving together at work. So try one thing this week. That's my challenge for you. Try one thing and then drop me a note to tell me how it's going. I would love to hear your stories and then stay tuned for the coming weeks. My guests are all women leaders who actively seek out Intersectional professional relationships, and they're sharing inspiring stories as well as practical advice for ways you can extend your Leadership practice in a wide array of professional settings. Okay, i can't wait to get these conversations started. See you next week.
Carole Chabries:Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the uplift summer session. I am picturing you listening while swinging in a hammock in the shade with your favorite book nearby. And speaking of books, can I buy you one? Here's the deal I'll make you I'll enter you in a monthly drawing for a $20 gift certificate at bookshoporg If you will head over to your podcast platform and leave me a review once a month. I'll choose a winner at random and if your name is chosen, i'll thank you on air and send you your gift certificate. This way, you get some great summer reading and I get to help you Build your library. After all, i'm the granddaughter of a librarian, so sharing books with people is one of my great joys. So head on over to your podcast platform, or even Apple Podcasts, where it might be easier, scroll to the bottom of the page for the uplift and leave your review.