The Power of Language in Marketing and Business Success

Today’s guest is Lisa Barry, a copywriter and marketer, and the founder of Mission Led Content. She helps small business owners make sales without big teams, pushy tactics, or feeling like a manipulative, spammy arsehole. Lisa’s all about clear, human marketing that actually works.

Our conversation started with a simple question ... why should we, as business owners, care so much about words?

From there, we went deep. We talked about the damage misleading business practices can cause, how Mission Led businesses navigate that space with integrity, and what it really takes to cut through the noise.

I loved exploring the energy behind our content and the impact of AI on how we show up and sell. We could definitely have carried on for much longer, so I’ve no doubt Lisa will be making a repeat appearance on the podcast.
 

You can find her on Facebook, Linkedin and grab the freebies she talked about on her website.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lisa.barry.319

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-barry-bab09a53/

Website: https://missionledbusinesshub.co.uk/

This Podcast is a Production of:

Zokit Business Hubs - the leading network and resource for owners, directors and entrepreneurs. https://zokit.co.uk/

Lead Producers: Neil J Lloyd

Transcript

Neil 0:01

Well, welcome everybody to the Business Wisdom Show. I'm here today with Lisa Barry. Hello, Lisa.

Lisa 0:42

Hello, Neil.

Neil 0:44

I'm really excited that Lisa's a guest today on our podcast because we're going to be talking about all things marketing, messaging, um, language, some of the really important stuff and sort of dive really deep into that. Um, so thank you, Lisa. I met Lisa, I think it was about six or seven months ago. It was through a mutual business contact. The power of networking there happened.

Lisa 1:08

The power of networking, indeed.

Neil 1:09

Exactly. And I was just really impressed with um Lisa's perspective on these things. Let's dive right in. Before we do that, though, tell me a little bit about yourself and your business.

Lisa 1:23

Um, so uh the line that I like to say when I show up to places is that I help people make sales uh without being a manipulative arsehole. So I think that says everything that you need to say. There are more ways to sell online without being a manipulative arsehole. That's that's what I'm here to say.

Neil 1:49

Yeah, and there's a lot of them about, isn't there?

Lisa 1:51

And there are a lot of them about, and you know, in over a decade of being in the online space helping people to do this, they have only increased. And uh and yeah, it's it's it's a minefield out there for sure.

Neil 2:04

Yeah, cutting through that noise, and I think especially people are new in business as well, it can be some of these uh marketing campaigns you see on social media are very convincing, aren't they? And I think if people are not kind of perhaps yet savvy with some business or you know, they're they're they're making a start, and sometimes they can go down a route that perhaps isn't the most useful for the m

Lisa 2:28

Sadly I feel that there's almost almost like a rite of passage in a way, because it's something you have to experience. Like, you know, I've got teenagers now, and sometimes as as as an adult who's been through that phase in my life, I'm thinking and saying to them, like, why would you do that? Like, why have you not why are you making those choices? But of course, when like the way that these are done, they are very um they they're playing very clever games, some of them. Some of them you can spot a mile off. Some of them I don't even know if they're doing it because they've been taught to do it by other people. Um, some of these tactics and strategies are almost baked into expectations um of how people are supposed to sell. Um, and uh, you know, I know a lot of people, myself included, I also did get um wrapped up in so I I not I wouldn't certainly call myself a manipulative arsehole. Um I wouldn't go that far, but I I definitely got caught up in uh the game for sure, um, and the show of the game. And so it's I think there is an element, so a lot of the people that I work with now actually, they are established and they are fed, they are so tired. They see somebody selling something and they're instantly thinking, oh yeah, what's what's the catch? What's the oh that somebody's just bullshitting again? And people have just got so jaded now because it's just got in, it's just it like I said, it's a minefield out there, and people are fed up and getting blown up. And so that then in creates a different problem. And then we've got AI comes in, and um AI uh has an incredible as uh uh opportunities that it brings us in terms of if we're talking about marketing's just uh isolated marketing, and if we isolate even more into social media marketing, people again are just getting tired and fed up of what they're seeing. And what we actually want to do in the online space, if if again, if we're talking directly about that, is we want to pattern interrupt, we want to get people's attention to cut through that noise. Um, and it's very hard when there is just so much noise out there. So that's that's what I really want to help people to do to find their voice that helps them find their people through that noise.

Neil 4:53

So, why should people care then about the language they use and and their approach um you know in business?

Lisa 5:00

It it's fundamental, Neil, to absolutely everything we do. As human beings, we our our the way that we communicate is what makes us human. You know, our broad depth of language is and and the way that we connect with each other through language is such a powerful tool that has enabled civilization and society to thrive. Without it, we would be lost, and there's all sorts of really interesting things around language and um the the so I I let me tell you a little story. Do you know the um the a comedian Trevor Noah? Oh yes, I've heard Trevor Noah is from South Africa, and he was born at a point where it was illegal for black and white people to have relationships, and he was he he is a child of a he's got a black father and a no a black mother and a white father, and so he was born a crime. That's what his book is called, born a crime. Because his very existence was illegal, and in his book, he talks about how in South Africa one of the tools that the government used to keep people separate, to keep people against each other, was the massive amount of different languages and dialects that there were. So people couldn't connect, people couldn't communicate. And the thing as a child who actually didn't fit in any group because he was technically illegal, he had to kind of pass as different things and try and pass in different spaces in some very dangerous situations. The thing that saved literally saved his life at times was understanding how to speak to people, understanding the different dialects and the different languages. He learned those languages so that he could he could navigate the different situations. And I I remember when I was reading that story, that's like I know like we're not it's not life or death, his his situation was more imperative than marketing. But I find that so compelling that it's literally life-saving. How we connect to people, we use language in a way that brings draws us to people, it provide makes us feel safe. So if you're speaking to somebody who's using your language, who's um using language that you recognize using words and um phrases that feel familiar to you, psychologically you feel safer. Obviously, there can be barriers, there can be language barriers, and all those things is the things that we have to try and overcome. There can be, I sometimes I work with people who, you know, even from somewhere like the top of Scotland or somewhere where they they just struggle, they say they struggle with communication with some people because people say they don't understand them. Um, and and that can be, you know, those sort of things can be a barrier that we have to kind of work with. We we've work to do our best with the resources that we've got. But I think it's so just to understand that fundamental human need to be understood and to be heard and to connect. Language matters. And then when you transfer that then to how what we do in our as marketers, as business owners, um, what we're trying to do is connect to people. We're trying to show that we're trustworthy, we're trying to show that we understand what they're experiencing, we're trying to show that we understand what they need, and we're trying to show that we can give them that. And if you're not thinking about the where they are, what they need, and the language they use to describe that, and you're not reflecting that back to them, if you're using your language that you may have heard at university or at uh you know with your peers to talk to people who need you to speak to them in a way that they feel they can connect with, you're you're you're gonna be going over their head, you're gonna be missing, completely missing the point. Um, so you know, from a marketing point of view, it's so important because people won't buy when they don't feel safe, they don't feel they can trust you and they don't feel you understand them.

Neil 9:06

You get some marketing that's very kind of middle of the road, isn't it? That kind of like you kind of half resonate with, but doesn't inspire you.

Lisa 9:13

Is that gonna move people to buy? And that's the question. You've got to you've got to have language that moves that allows people to feel something. People buy based on emotion, and you've got to know what is the language that's gonna make them feel something. Now, here in this becomes dodgy ground because there we go on to the you could become a manipulative arseshole when you get this is how it becomes so easy to go down that route because of course people move away from fear faster than they move towards a positive outcome. So, you know, if we if we had a bear coming towards us and we had a sun, beautiful sunset, we need to be paying attention to that bear more than that sunset because that's a life-threatening situation. We are moved more to action by fear biologically, and so fear, as we've seen, and this is one of the changes that I've seen in the online space over the years, is how much fear is being increasingly used because it's become well, clickbait. I mean, it's being used not just in marketing, it's uh marketing and politics have become very gone very side by side. I know we're not gonna, we're definitely not gonna have a conversation about politics, but in terms of the online world and how it's very fear-driven. The more clicks you get, the more money you make. You know, that's I uh you know, publishers and and such like uh follow that same pattern. It's not just business owners. So you just have this uh there is a fact behind it. You can sell more if you make people afraid. And that's where what I do comes in because I what I want to talk about is balance, uh, being like stopping and thinking, thinking about how you want to make people feel. Yes, you have to be compelling, yes, you have to like compel emotion, yes, you have to be connecting in a way that helps them to move forward, but how can you do that in a way that feels aligned to your values and doesn't feel like you're throwing them under the bus or essentially yourself at the end of the day, because it doesn't feel good to be.

Neil 11:17

I agree because I think it's the marketers they they tend to sort of like poke the pain a lot, don't they? And they get to the point where you're thinking actually you're you're causing some level of trauma now. Whereas kind of thinking about, I don't know, you know, identifying maybe the problem and understanding the pain and then helping them navigate a way forward that helps them into a space they want to be. That that has a good intention behind it, but making someone so afraid or so much in pain that they feel, oh gosh, I just need to buy this now because I want to get out of this state of pain.

Lisa 11:47

Yeah, this will solve all my problems.

Neil 11:49

Yeah, and then it may, yeah. And you're right, you know, it is this thing about online, the online fear, this generalized fear as well, is almost creating this so much um fear and lies that then people don't trust anything. So then if someone comes along then with something very clear, says, Oh, you know, come with me, this is the place to go. Um, that's fine if it's genuine, but then if they're used in that you know, manipulative way, um, yeah, it's not really a place, I think that's healthy for society and and or healthy for business either. Because you know, these some of these uh these some of these kind of tricks, if you like, um that some marketers use, they're very short-term, aren't they? They're not really they're not really contributing towards the body of good business.

Lisa 12:36

No, the one thing that's quite interesting is um a lot of these uh and I, you know, I I must say in the first part of my business, I one of the reasons that mission-led content as a concept, which is what I talk about, um mission-led business was born, was out of working for some of these people that are completely unscrupulous. And so I've seen I've seen behind the these businesses. I was like a freelance writer brought in to do things, and so I I would see how you know, firstly, things are not as rosy as they make out online. So, you know, even things like um I've seen things like people uh faking uh testimonials or even faking income and like creating fake screenshots and things like that so that they can appear, like look how much money I'm making by doing this, but actually they're not.

Neil 13:30

And then filming it in front of like a giant mansion with a swimming pool. That's you know it's not theirs, it's just they've just driven up

Lisa 13:36

That's old profile. You can now do that with AI, see? That's the thing. You could create a whole AI, and that's like AI has kind of really forced that point and made it even worse. Um, but they don't get they spend an awful lot these sort of companies on ads and and lead generation because they don't get so much of the repeat customers. They capture, if they do have real testimonials, they capture them early on in the process when they've got people hyped and excited. Um but they're not building long-term plans. I know in my business I've I've I've I've been through some real personal challenges. Um, and there was a time um my my daughter was being very, very severely bullied, and she told me that my online presence was making it worse. Um because they were literally like they were looking, they were online bullying her. And I was on my line at the time was all about I used to talk all the time about being courageously visible. And it turned out my courage was putting my daughter in, I mean, the the they weren't bullying her because of that, just to say. But they were looking at, yeah, they were and they were also looking like I used to put their photos of them online. Obviously, I stopped that when she asked me to. Um, but then they were going back through all my photos and looking at photos from when she was younger. And so that whole episode, and I, you know, they even took videos of me when I was out and put them all over Snapchat and insulting me and stuff like that, so calling me old and fat and different things like that. Um and experiencing that while simultaneously telling people to be courageously visible was a real challenging time in my business. At one point, I decided to come off social media completely. So I shut it all off. I took um a year off intentionally, but my business kept running. I I didn't have at that point a loss of income because I'd built relationships with people over time that those relationships people just kept coming back to me. You know, I had I had a membership that I was running anyway, and then the clients that I'd built up over, I think maybe five or six years that I'd been in business would continue to come back to me. Um, and if I was short, I would outreach to some of those people that I had really good connections with. Again, looking at the language, because you know, it's when we talk about marketing, it's not just what you put on social media, there's other ways I kept my email list going. Um, so there's like, you know, it's not all about social media. And it it's also, you know, just just remembering that when you are looking at communicating with people and you are looking at communicating with your ideal client, having those like meaningful, aligned relationships that you're building through the words that you're using actually builds a longer-term sustainable business that means that you don't necessarily have to be, you know, dancing on social media every five minutes to be making money. You know, you've got some you you're building relationships with people that will keep coming back. And these people that do that, they don't, that's that's not their game. Their game is just to get the lead generations, make the sales move on, make the sales move on.

Neil 16:48

And often the thing they're delivering is not even sort of creating a transformation for that person. They're just maybe selling something that's kind of off the shelf, that's not actually gonna get the result that person wants, but they've paid their money. It's too difficult to get it back or whatever, whatever it is, they're on to the next thing. And like you say, they just think, right, you know, I'm chasing the few hundred pounds or the few thousand pounds I can get from someone by clicking buy, and that's it.

Lisa 17:14

Once they've done that, once they've done that, they're not interested. You hear that so many times. People are so upfront and so they put all their energy into the external marketing, but then behind the scenes, nothing is happening. And that's why I talk about, you know, when getting the words right matter, not just for that external marketing, but how you then nurture and take care of and deliver services to the people that are in your world. Um, because those are the that that's how you keep a, you know, like I just explained, when my my whole world blew up and I needed to make sure I was still earning money, I didn't have any other income, you know. I didn't have I don't have a day job. I again, this is my day, this is my income.

Neil 17:54

This is the day job.

Lisa 17:55

Yeah, but at some point I have um, you know, I've been the um only earner in the household quite quite a cons quite considerable times as well. So my whole family has relied on my income, and I wouldn't have been able to do that without the relationships that I was building, which came from and always started with authentic, that word's overused, but it still matters. Just genuine language, connecting, thinking about the words that I'm saying, thinking about the people I'm saying it to, and doing it in a very considered way. And that's that's how I've built a business that lasts could that took me through that most challenging time.

Neil 18:36

That's great, you've you've achieved that, and I think you know that's fantastic, even when it's been sometimes sometimes painful. You mentioned about the continuation of those relationships, and I think you're you know you're right, the the language is not just on the social media, the sales copy, the website, it's the conversations you have with that person in your first um meetings with them, and then there's the you know, if they're a long-term client, those continued conversations, written and verbal, all those things really, really like you say do matter. Um, and I'm wondering as well whether you know when we select and we we kind of have a good intention behind the words we use and the language we use, um it probably has a good effect on ourselves as well, because we're almost sort of setting out saying, right, this is how we want to show up in the world, this is the how we want the world to be and how we want to be in it. And actually, by by truly authentically being this person, I'm actually also helping myself to become more like it and be kinder to myself too, and kind of almost embody that you're helping your clients, you're helping yourself, you're helping your the people you're providing for. It's almost like a kind of virtuous circle, isn't it?

Lisa 19:54

I I I love that you've brought that up because that is um I I've often said that I would like people when people think about their content to move it away from being like, oh, this is a chore I've got to do. To actually this is an opportunity. So a lot of the time in my training and things like that, I talk about we do journaling, so we're doing like and we're doing self-care practices. Like, you know, I I encourage people. For example, I run like a planning workshop, and afterwards I just I just invite people, I don't tell people what they have to do. I'm very much against doing that. Um, but I invite people to go and spend their lunchtime doing something creative so that you know there's all these different ways that we can use the activities that we have to do in our work, but actually connect them with what can actually nurture us and help us to show up in the world in a way that feels good. Like, why not feel good? If I wanted to feel like crap, I'd go and work it, I'd go and have get a boss. Like I am my own boss, I can choose how I show up. I don't have to be, I don't have to mask when I'm at work because I choose who I'm working with and I choose how to, and that means that I attract people I really like. This is one of the other things I say about ideal clients. Your ideal client should be someone that you actually like because you want, and so that then you're gonna show up as yourself or a version of yourself, because we all have many versions, don't we, for different people. Show up as a version of yourself to attract that person that you like, you are then spending time and helping someone that you like, and at the same time, it again that's nurturing you and it's giving you that opportunity for self-development. And like you said about the um the like the opportunities there, this is one of my favorite questions. So um I ask people every month in my monthly planning session what is the energy that they want to show up with this month? Um, and I've got like um energy archetypes. Um, I'm trying to remember some of them off off kit off. the top of my head, but one of them is um a gentle guide, one of them is an advocator, one of them is a destructor. And so it's like when you're the when you stop and consider what is the energy that I want to bring into my language what was the energy I want to show up with. It's a different way of saying what's the words or what's the language. We're not, you know, it's separate to that. But it feeds into it. And if we make these decisions and carefully consider what is the energy that we want to bring to that month. And it can change every month because it could depend what you're selling, it could depend what um what your audience needs right now. I talk about that a lot. What does your audience need right now in this moment? How do you meet them? And yeah, I think I think asking ourselves what is the energy we want to show up in is also kind of asking ourselves what is the energy that I want to embody this month.

Neil 22:52

I love that. And I think this idea of like the energy and then the words coming into that or flowing from that. If you start with the right energy then you're kind of you're you're more or less there. And I kind of feel like the the words the language become almost a bit like software like a code. And you know we kind of almost um yeah we're almost updating I think about updating the software you wouldn't you wouldn't use old software that's now out of date you've always you'd kind of update it and um which brings us nicely into this idea of kind of where AI sits with this whole thing because that's a whole whole new world isn't there's that's open to us and there's pitfalls and there's opportunities there's things to be mindful of so what what are your thoughts on on how all this sits with AI

Lisa 23:40

wow I have so many I must keep them short otherwise we'll be here all day so my experience with AI my personal story with it is when it first generative AI so you know the chat GTPs obviously we've had different forms of AI in in our lives for a long time without even recognizing it but when chat came on the scene and people started just putting write me a post about I'm this business I want to sell to this person and it would spew out in seconds I nearly died like I just thought that's it everything's over I'm gonna just just quit it all now um sell my computer be done um the the reality of course is very different um but it panicked me um and then I realized that I had to figure this thing out because if I was gonna stand a chance I would be a bit like a code uh the Kodak company when digital cameras came out and they didn't go that far I had to move forward with um I had to make myself informed so reluctantly and quite a I was quite ashamed because I was like oh if people think I'm using AI then they'll think that I'm cheating or they think but I had to work it out because my clients wanted to use it. Some of them actually didn't and some of the still very anti-AI and I completely understand all of that and it's a complex conversation like I said we could talk about it all day um but as a business owner I had to meet my clients where they were and I had to meet them right now and at that point I had to learn. Where it I mean there's so much in between there and now but where I sit now the first thing I think people should ask themselves is about where they sit and where their business sits in the world of AI. It's not just about people often go straight to using AI to write content. Yes we can talk about that but actually for me people were leaving me to go and use AI. They literally like my workshops were emptying uh people were um not I wasn't selling as many things um and then I started to learn how to use it more and then I was able to start selling that help um but with the the problem that that people have is if their their clients and their customers are going like coaching so many people use AI to coach them through stuff organizing people like people who do um uh you know help you with your um you know your diary and your calendars VAs these sort of jobs a lot of those roles are being taken by AI now you can sit with your head in the sand or you can understand again it comes back to what does my audience need right now? How in this world right now do I meet their needs? Because if you haven't got a business that's meeting the needs of your audience you haven't got a business and so you have to be aware of what's happening for them to them how are they experiencing it and so before even we get into the topic of like how you use it to write with it's so important as a business owner to just ask how does your business fit now in a world of AI and does that change what how you've got to position yourself? So I think that's an important question to to consider.

Neil 27:05

So how if people come in to work with you and thought right I want to I want to work with Lisa tell tell us about what's that what does that process look like do they get in touch with you how does it all work

Lisa 27:15

it's it's all a very um unique process. It depends very much on what people need. One of the things that I do offer is um a free pass to my community. So that means that uh once a month I do a planning mornings to plan social media content for that for once so it's the first Tuesday of every month and we plan the content for that month. And then two weeks into the month we do a networking session as well. And so if people um want to come and the networking session is always based on language and words and how you know the questions that people go off in the breakout rooms might be how would you describe yourself? Imagine that you're just meeting somebody um at a bus stop and they ask what you're gonna do, what do you do for a living? How are you going to answer it? And so what those are the examples or sometimes we share screens and and evaluate each other's profiles to see if we've got the important words at the top. So it's very um it's not it the networking is networking but we have an alternative agenda which is to dig deep into um our messaging and also practice talking because it's not just words aren't just about what we write like hear me and you are talking things through um we have to be able to networking is so powerful and so you need to know what you're gonna say when you show up at networking meetings as well. So those are things that I offer for free. I also have a free AI guide on how you position yourself. But if you wanted if somebody wanted that to actually learn like work with me one-to-one just book you know people can just book on a call and I I talk and listen to what they need where they are right now and then we go from there. I either help people to learn how to write it themselves help people to use AI to write it themselves or I do it for them / So there's all different ways it's a lot a lot I just threw it all at you

Neil 29:07

but I love those things I love you know I love you know all my favorite things networking language and then action you know those three things

Lisa 29:17

Action is so important because I just think people are just so fed up of sitting on calls and being told what to do like we need to make space to do it . Life is so busy. So it's a big part of what I try to do now is make sure that whatever I'm doing there's practical things that people can take from it and then like put into practice straight away that it brings value immediately because just people are too tired and too overwhelmed.

Neil 29:45

Give us some of the examples of the things you've worked with with clients I mean I know you don't want to share specific details

Lisa 29:51

I can straight away I can say last night that um I've got a client who is starting a blog on their website. So um we I created a blog plan uh based on their freebie that they've got so they do mediation in companies and they've got a guide to mediation as their freebie because most people don't know what mediation is so that that was a good freebie to give the people the information before they decided to commit. So then we took that guide and using AI so this is where AI really does work really well because it helps you to organize and pull out information and we used AI to say right look at this guide like where are the blog let's make a blog plan. So me and AI worked together and we made a blog plan and then I worked with AI again to create these blogs but I worked really in in like really meticulously with it. So each time we did something I would then deeply edit it and then I'd give it back and I'd say right this is this are the edits I make please can you like take note of these edits then my next question was can you create a guide for yourself for so you can help yourself write the next blog and so we worked each time improving. So by the time I'd finished the six blogs I then had enough information with between me and AI that we could create a personalized chatbot that I can now that I've now given to my client. So when they're now writing future blogs they can use that chatbot and it has all the information in there and it's all all of these things are leading to their meditation mediation guide sorry um improves their SEO and allows them to and they can then I'm gonna then say to them right let's turn these into a video series and so there's all like how when we take a piece of like long form content like that and create something that's really sustainable we can turn them into we will turn that we will turn them into social media posts. And so we've got this whole ecosystem of content that's all built around the freebie so it leads people and we're just building this up while at the same time building the tools and the automation so these things can be repeated easily in the future. So that's just an example of a project I've been working on. But they vary they very much vary on what people need and I talk to them and my years of experience say I think this is this is the direction that would be good for you and we go from there.

Neil 32:15

Excellent. So how can people get in touch with you? What's the best way?

Lisa 32:19

Um LinkedIn and Facebook is where I hang out um and all my freebies are on the Mission Led Business Hub uh co.uk so you can come and find me over there. Um and yeah and I and I'm also of course in Zokit and I'm in the names groups and I'm there every every Wednesday morning at eight o'clock um with a smile on my face and a cup of tea.

Neil 32:40

Brilliant yes the cup of tea is really important. Very important yeah yeah so come along on Wednesday if you'd like to meet Lisa and I'll put all the links in the the show notes as well. Thank you so much Lisa for sharing this conversation with me. It's been really really fascinating and I hope maybe we can uh we can have another conversation maybe in a few months' time as well. I'd love that yeah brilliant excellent thank you very much well that's a wrap thanks everyone for tuning in please hit subscribe to get notified for the next episode and please leave us a review I'd love to hear from you you can check out our show notes for info and links from today's episode one of the single biggest success factors for business is networking. Done well it speeds up your growth having a supportive group of peers not only helps you avoid some of the pitfalls but also opens up your perspectives and creates real opportunities. Leading a business can be a lonely place and it's this isolation that often stops progress. It's why most businesses fail in their first five years at Zokit we have a network of hubs that create a support structure of growth minded business leaders and we'd love to invite you to be part of the thriving community to skyrocket your business. Head over to Zokit.co.uk where you can request a free guest pass to one of our online events accessible from anywhere you can get on Zoom or book a ticket to meet in person at our mixers in Cardiff and Bristol. Hey you may even want to launch a hub in your own area. Tune in next time this is me, your host Neil J. Lloyd wishing you the best in business.