The Mindset of a Survivor and His 4 Truths for Resilience - Interview with Terry Tucker

Terry Tucker shares his remarkable journey from being a Division 1 basketball player to a SWAT team hostage negotiator, and ultimately a cancer survivor. He discusses the importance of mindset, resilience, and the lessons learned through adversity. Terry emphasizes the significance of community, relationships, and the principles of sustainable excellence that guide his life. His insights on parenting and personal growth provide valuable takeaways for listeners.

Takeaways

• Terry Tucker's journey includes being a former D1 basketball player and a cancer survivor.
• He emphasizes the importance of mindset in overcoming challenges.
• Hostage negotiation is a team sport that relies on communication and understanding.
• Cancer has taught Terry valuable lessons about resilience and personal growth.
• The four truths for resilience are: control your mind, embrace pain, leave a legacy, and never quit.
• Building a supportive community is crucial for personal success.
• Terry's book, 'Sustainable Excellence,' outlines principles for leading an extraordinary life.
• Parents should teach their children the value of failure and learning from mistakes.
• It's important to challenge kids' beliefs and encourage critical thinking.
• Terry believes that adversity can lead to personal growth and a deeper understanding of oneself.

How to find Terry Tucker
www.motivationalcheck.com
IG www.instagram.com/sustainableexcellenceauthor

Dad to Dads Podcast on IG www.instagram.com/dadtodads

Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Terry Tucker. Welcome to the podcast.

Terry Tucker (00:02)
Robert, thanks for having me on. I'm really looking forward to talking with you.

Robert Poirier (00:05)
Oh man, I appreciate you coming on the dad to dad's podcast. You, you have a pretty interesting background. Um, former D one basketball player. spent, you know, time as a, um, SWAT team hostage negotiator. You're an accomplished author You are also a cancer survivor. Congratulations. Uh, what else did I miss on that? It's

Terry Tucker (00:28)
Yeah. So I'll

give you the sort of fill in the gaps again. Born on the South Side Chicago, oldest of three boys. have no sisters. My brothers and I were all athletes. Went to college on a basketball scholarship at the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina. And then moved home. I'm really going to date myself now, Robert. This was long before the internet was available to help people find employment. So I moved home to find a job.

Robert Poirier (00:38)
Wow.

Okay, wonderful.

Terry Tucker (00:55)
My first job out of college was in the corporate headquarters of Wendy's International in their marketing department. That was the good news. Bad news was I lived with my parents for the next three and a half years as I helped my mom care for my father and my grandmother who were both dying of different forms of cancer. After Wendy's, I actually went to work for the hospital that cared for my father and my grandmother. I thought they did such a great job and wanted to be part of that.

Robert Poirier (01:01)
Okay? Yeah.

Terry Tucker (01:22)
And then at 37, as you mentioned, made the major pivot, became a police officer, uh, and was a SWAT hostage negotiator. After that started a school security consulting business, coach girls, high school basketball. When we lived in Texas, that was, that was probably one of the hardest jobs I ever had. Um, but now for the last 13 years, as you mentioned, I've been battling this, this rare form of cancer. And then I guess finally my wife and I had been married for.

Robert Poirier (01:36)
my goodness.

But.

Terry Tucker (01:51)
32 years, we have one child, a daughter, who's a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy and is an officer in the new branch of the military, the Space Force.

Robert Poirier (02:00)
That's really cool. That's really cool. And I appreciate her service. And I want to talk about her in a little bit. I want to go back there. Let's talk about basketball for a minute. What position did you play?

Terry Tucker (02:12)
So I was a forward in high school, well, excuse me, I was a center in high school. I was a forward in college unless the center got in foul trouble and then I had a play center. And you know, I'm six foot eight, yeah, but I was playing against guys, guys that were, you know, six, 10, six, 11, seven feet and things like that. So I...

Robert Poirier (02:24)
Are you really? Wow.

Do you

watch the game today? Do you watch it much? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I do, because my youngest is a big basketball fan and I always, it's hard to watch it at times. It's a completely different game. And when they talk about certain players and they would dominate back in your day, dad, I'm like, they would be hurt back in my day.

They couldn't handle it. mean, you know, there were people throwing elbows, everything else back then. mean, literally. And now you just kind of get brushed and they flop across the court. You know, then there, mean, you know, they literally would tell you, Hey, next time you drive to the hole, I'm going to take you out. And they would mean it was completely different.

Terry Tucker (03:20)
Well,

I played high school basketball with Isaiah Thomas. We were in the same conference. Yeah. And so, you he went to Indiana, a couple, won a national championship with Indiana, went on and played for the Pistons, won a couple NBA championships. And so we would see each other, you know, in the summer when we would come back into Chicago and stuff like that. And I asked, you know, Bobby Knight was notorious for just ripping his players and things like that. And the physicality

Robert Poirier (03:23)
Did you really?

Yeah.

Terry Tucker (03:46)
My wife loves that word, know, physicality. Whoever came up with that, you know, it's like the physicality was you just, I mean, you sent a message, you know, I mean, if you did something, were going to get hammered the next time you came in the lane. But now nobody goes in the lane. Everybody shoots threes. Even, you your seven footers, they're out shooting threes. So, yeah, it's. Yeah.

Robert Poirier (03:56)
That was it. Yeah. Yeah.

No! No!

Yeah. Nobody comes in the pain anymore. It's what it's, it's what kills me. mean, cause that's

what I loved about the game. And now it's, Hey, let's take it across half court lists or let's shoot from the logo. So that's not even basketball.

Terry Tucker (04:20)
Yeah, Steph Curry,

Caitlin, even in the women's game now with Caitlin Clark, you know, doing the same.

Robert Poirier (04:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. Now it's a shoot around and they don't my, the, biggest complaint is nobody plays defense. I was never that big. wasn't a great shot from outside. So I had to, like, I had to play strong defense, like strong defense. And that's what, you know, I try to teach my boys, especially my youngest, like I want you to be so sticky on him, like so sticky.

But even the coaches, it's not really about, it's not really about the, you know, really shutting somebody down. It's, uh, I see that now in their age. It's you just, it's, you know, get open for a shot and let's throw it out to such that she's got a three.

Terry Tucker (05:07)
Yeah, it's, and I think that's, I think the whole AAU program has ruined basketball.

Robert Poirier (05:15)
I

yeah, I had Cutino Mobley on, do you know what I'm talking about? Cutino Mobley. I had him on and we were talking about it. I don't remember if he talked about it when we recorded, but we've talked about it a few times. I know off the air because I was talking, I called him up one time and I said, Hey, my youngest is thinking about joining this AAU team. He's been accepted on it. What do you think? And he's like, I'm like, really? Cause he's going to get, you know, he's going to get a lot of time. He's like, no, don't let him.

He's like, just let it just have him work on his game away from that. And he said, you know, look for three, three on threes that type, but don't, don't let him join a, and, I thought, well, you know, that's one guy that would know. And, and and it is, I mean, you know, I see that I'm not, I hate to knock AAU because I know there's a lot of talent that comes from that too, but.

I also don't see as much of the skills as there needs to be. And I think that I know this isn't a basketball program, but, uh, so sorry for those of you listening one day or something else, but you look at the European players coming over now and the skills that they have versus the skills that the us born players have. I think that's why they have had such a big impact.

Because they work on their game, they work on their skills a lot more than they actually play the game. And I think we're seeing that now with the influx of Europeans coming in.

Terry Tucker (06:43)
We are and and and

you know, and I don't think NIL help things at all. mean, my youngest brother is a is a basketball coach, high school basketball coach in Chicago. He's he's in the Illinois High School Hall of Fame and he actually coached Michael Jordan's two sons when they were they went to Loyola Academy and he even today talks about as a high school coach basically having to recruit your own kids every year.

Robert Poirier (06:47)
No.

Terry Tucker (07:09)
because they go off in the summer and play in their AAU, with their AAU team, and they meet up another player and like, hey, ditch your high school, come over and play at my high school. So my brother's like, I'm having to recruit my own kids at high school. mean, not recruit, but here's a reason you should stay here as opposed to go play at another high school here in Chicago and stuff like that. it's, yeah, we could go on for hours about this.

Robert Poirier (07:23)
That's just crazy. Yeah.

we could, we could. could certainly talk. I could certainly talk about basketball for a while. so now we're going to change the podcast and go from a basketball podcast to this is what's really interesting. A hostage negotiator for the SWAT team. What is, what is that? Like, I'm sure it's nothing like we see on TV and how, how, how did you get into that?

Terry Tucker (07:50)
No.

Yeah, you know, Robert, I've always wanted to be the best at what I did in my life. And if you look at SWAT teams, they're usually the best officers with the best training and the best equipment. So when there was an opening on, and this was in Cincinnati, Ohio, when there was an opening on the negotiating team, I put in for it. And, you know, I was probably in my mid 40s by the time I did that. I started in law enforcement late when I was 37.

Robert Poirier (07:57)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Tucker (08:19)
And so, you had to run the mile and a half, you had to do the pushups and sit ups, you had to meet with the psychologist, you had to take psychological exams, meet with the command staff, and then meet with the team. And if one person said, hey, Terry's kind of difficult to deal with, or I've worked with him before, and it's not a good fit, you didn't get on. So fortunately, I went through that whole process and got the thumbs up from the team and started on it. And hostage negotiation is...

It's a team sport. It really is. I mean, yes, there is one person talking to the barricaded suspect or whoever, you know, we're dealing with. There's another negotiator sitting right next to you, listening to everything that's going on. And then there three or four, maybe even five, what I used to call work in the crowd. Because there were a lot of times Robert, we'd get there. I have no idea why we're here. What precipitated this? What led up to this? Why did this person do that? You have no idea. And I'll

I'll end with this. I'll give you the, so we were given a formula when we started on the team of how we as human beings communicate with each other. And that formula was 7 38 55 So I'll tell you what those mean and then I'll tell you why they gave us the formula. So 7 % of how we communicate a message are the words that we use. So think how many times you've said something, been like, Ooh, you know, I wish I hadn't said that, or I wish you would have said that in a different

Robert Poirier (09:29)
Yeah.

Terry Tucker (09:42)
That's only 7 % of how that message comes across. 38 % is the tone of voice that you're using. Are you really excited and you can't wait to tell a person you're talking like this or you're kind of, you know, ee-oring it with, you know, things are really bad and it's not going to work? What's your tone of voice? And then 55%, more than half of how that message is communicated is your body language and your facial expressions. And the reason we were given that

Robert Poirier (10:07)
Interesting.

Terry Tucker (10:10)
was because if somebody was barricaded in a room with a gun, I was not in the room with that person. That would not have been safe for me. So we didn't have the luxury of that 55%. We didn't have the luxury of saying something to somebody and kind of see them roll their eyes like, what an idiot. I can't believe Terry said that to me. So that's just a little formula. And that doesn't just apply to police. That applies to how all of us communicate with each other.

Robert Poirier (10:37)
In general. Yeah, sure.

Sure. No, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I was curious about that. And, you know, especially watching TV and movies with the hostage negotiators, how different it is. I figured it was very different. can we talk about, we do, I do want to go into mindset and how changing your mindset can help you parenting. And that, that's ultimately why I had you on here. but can we talk about cancer?

for a minute. You know, you have, you've had quite the journey with it. Do you mind sharing that?

Terry Tucker (11:03)
Sure, absolutely.

No, I don't mind at all. ⁓ So 2012, I'm a girls high school basketball coach in Texas and I have a callus break open on the bottom of my left foot right below my third toe and initially don't think much of it because it's a coach on your feet a lot. But after a few weeks of it not healing, I made an appointment, went to see a podiatrist, a foot doctor friend of mine and he takes an x-ray and he says, Terry, I think you have a little cyst in there and I can cut it out. And he does and he shows it to me. Just a little gelatin sack with some white fat in it.

No dark spots, no blood, nothing that gave either one of us concern. But fortunately, or unfortunately, he sent it off to pathology to have it looked at. And then two weeks later, I get the call from him that pretty much changes my life and the life of my family. And like I said, he was a friend of mine. So the more difficulty he's having explaining what's going on to me, the more frightened I am becoming. Until finally he just lays it out. He said, Terry, I've been a doctor for 25 years.

And I have never seen the form of cancer that you have. You have an incredibly rare form of melanoma. And most people think of melanoma as too much exposure to the sun. That's the melon, the pigment in our skin. This has nothing to do with sun exposure. It's a rare form that appears on the bottom of the feet or the palms of the hands. And because it was so rare, he said, you need to go to MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and be treated. And so I did. And they took the bottom of my foot off.

Robert Poirier (12:16)
Right, yeah.

Terry Tucker (12:35)
They took all the lymph nodes in my groin out and then they said, you'll probably be dead in two years because we have absolutely nothing to offer you. They put me on a drug called interferon, which I was on for five, almost five years. Horrible nasty drug. eventually put me in the intensive care unit with a body temperature of 108 degrees, which is usually not compatible with being alive. Sometimes, somehow I survived that, but how to stop the interferon. The next step was,

immunotherapy, which didn't work. in 2017, had my left foot amputated. Cancer worked its way up my leg. 2019, two more surgeries. And then in the middle of the COVID pandemic, an undiagnosed tumor kind of at the end of my stump grew large enough that it broke my leg, fractured my tibia.

I had to my left leg amputated above the knee and found out I have tumors in my lungs. And I still have tumors in my lungs, still being treated for those tumors. But I also found out the last few weeks that I have a malignant tumor in my stump now. So we're going to have to address that.

Robert Poirier (13:43)
I am so sorry. I am so sorry.

Terry Tucker (13:45)
Don't you don't be sorry. I

always you know, I always say this I learned a couple things from cancer number one I don't think you truly know yourself until you've been tested by some form of adversity in your life And the second thing I would say is cancers cancers made me a better human being I mean I've been asked if you could live your life over again without cancer Would you do it and Robert? wouldn't do it cancer as much hell as I've been through cancer has made me a better human being

Robert Poirier (14:08)
Really.

Well, I'll certainly, I'll certainly be praying for you. And, you know, it's interesting that you said that about a better human being. My sister, just went through battling breast cancer and we were talking a couple of days ago and she was talking, we were talking about this past year and everything she's gone through. And she was taught, she was saying the same thing about, you know, better human being, how it's

certainly strengthen her faith, how she views life differently, what she can and can't control, how she looks at things, but mainly about her faith as well. it's interesting with a lot of people that have gone through that, that they come out saying that. And I love that with adversity. I think that's very true, very true.

Terry Tucker (14:55)
Yeah,

I mean, it has. And I kind of look at my purpose. You know, we were talking about purpose before we started the recording. I kind of look at my purpose now as God using my infirmity, my malignancy, my cancer to show people his love, his mercy, his grace, his peace, his comfort, his healing. And so this is, and I've always said this, this is bigger than me. This is, and I think that's how you survive it. You realize that

Robert Poirier (15:19)
Yeah.

Terry Tucker (15:23)
It's, this isn't really about you. This is about something bigger than you. And so I'm real good with God using me however long he wants to use me. You know, like I said, in 2012, I was told I'd be dead in two years. It's more than 13 years later and I'm still here. And I don't think it's just because I need to be here. I think it's something much bigger than me.

Robert Poirier (15:28)
Yeah.

Wow.

But that's an amazing way to look at it. It's beautiful. It's an amazing way to look at it. And I, I appreciate you sharing that. Um, you know, talking about cancer with people being on the other side, it is one of those things like, is it okay if we talk about it? You don't really know how to, what to say. Um, but I appreciate you sharing.

Definitely do. I want to hear about your daughter, Space Force Air Force Academy and going to the Space Force. was this something you pushed or

Terry Tucker (16:14)
No, it really wasn't. Fortunately or unfortunately, my daughter got my height and she's six foot three and has an NBA three point shot. And so she was recruited and I don't, know, she could have been tougher, but I got to coach her in high school and that was, that was sort of a double edged sword. I loved being with her. I loved all the practices. loved the, you know,

Robert Poirier (16:25)
Wow.

Hahaha

Terry Tucker (16:40)
summers in the gym, rebounding four and stuff like that. But there were nights after a game where it's like, you need to go home with your mother. Because I'll say something that I probably shouldn't say. I need to cool down a little bit. I mean, the thing about it was, Robert, I have two brothers. We were all college athletes. One pitched for Notre Dame. The other one was drafted by the Cavaliers in the NBA. So we were all college athletes. And when my daughter, or when my wife got pregnant,

Robert Poirier (16:47)
Hahaha ⁓

Right.

Terry Tucker (17:08)
You know, we go to the OBGYN and it's like, would you like to know the sex of the baby? Yeah, yeah, sure. Great. Well, you should buy pink. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You need to keep it in there until it's done. I have no idea how to raise a girl whatsoever. But my daughter and I are probably closer than most kids. And I think a lot of that, I got to spend those summers in the gym, just rebounding for her

Robert Poirier (17:16)
Hahaha

Terry Tucker (17:32)
And yes, it was a great experience and she worked on her game and she was able to play in college, but it was the talks. It was, what do you think about this? Why we're shooting and things like that. Those are what really mean the most to me. And so when, you know, it was college time, she was being recruited by different places. I really thought she was going to go to the University of Rochester in New York.

They're in the same conference with like Emory, the University of Chicago, NYU, all those. But the Air Force Academy had been looking at her for a couple of years. We live in Denver and they were like, hey, why don't you come down for a visit? And my daughter was like, I don't know. I'm like, hey, let's go down. Let's just see it. Let's just, mean, neither one of us has been there. Let's go look. So we go and look and we, I'll never forget, we get there, the assistant coach has taken us on a tour.

Robert Poirier (18:00)
Yeah.

Terry Tucker (18:23)
And it's tucked right in against the Rocky Mountains. It's such a beautiful setting. And we go into the administration room and we go into a conference room and we're sitting there and we're talking. And all of a sudden this full bird colonel walks in, uniform, medals all over his chest, eagles on his shoulder. And he introduces himself, goes around the side of the table, sits right across from Michaela, our daughter. And he starts telling this story.

Robert Poirier (18:25)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

Terry Tucker (18:51)
And it was basically, I'll kind of shorten it, but it was basically, if you graduate from this place, for the rest of your life, watch people's chins. Because when they hear you're an academy graduate, their chins will rise. It'll be like, because they will expect more of you. They will expect to be a better leader, a better student, a better athlete, a better business person, whatever it is.

And literally by the end of the speech, I was like, what do I sign? Okay, I'm doing it right. I'll be happy to sign right now. Can I play? I was ready to run through the wall. I was so excited. But our daughter was kind of, I mean, she's a high school kid. So it's like, do you appreciate what you're being offered here? And I didn't know. And we drove back to Denver, was about a little over an hour. And we talked about all the cool things we'd seen and stuff like that. But then that night at dinner,

Robert Poirier (19:20)
Ha

Yeah.

Terry Tucker (19:43)
with my wife and I, it's just the three of us, she's our only child. You know, she started talking about it and she was like, I don't think I can pass up this opportunity to do something that is going to be incredibly hard at a very young age and see where it takes me. So, very proud of her. I mean, the day she graduated, walked across the stage, got her diploma and shook hands with the President of the United States, I was on cloud nine.

Robert Poirier (20:01)
Wow.

Oh, how can you not be? I mean, how can you not be? Congratulations on that. And now she's in the space force.

Terry Tucker (20:12)
How can you not fit? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so the Space Force was just coming on. And so she went to tech school for a year in California and then actually worked here at Buckley Space Force Base for a while, got married to one of her classmates. They're in Florida. He's a pilot in the Air Force and they're coming back to Colorado Springs this fall. So we're being frantic. Yeah, he's gonna.

Robert Poirier (20:39)
That's great. That's great. Well,

I appreciate her service. I definitely do. And yeah, it's a great segue to accomplish what she's caught up to accomplish what she has accomplished. You've got to have certain mindset, right? And there's basically, I don't want to take your thunder away, but there's basically four truths that you've taught her. Do you mind kind of share it? Do you mind sharing those truths and then going through each one of them?

Terry Tucker (21:05)
Yeah, I have them here on a Post-it note in my office. So I see them multiple times during the day. They constantly get reinforced in my mind. And they're only one sentence each. So I'll get into it. First one is control your mind, or your mind is going to control you. The second one is embrace the pain and the difficulty that we all experience in life. And use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more resilient individual.

Robert Poirier (21:10)
Ha

Terry Tucker (21:33)
The third one I kind of look at as a, I guess a legacy type of truth, and it's this, what you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of other people. And then the fourth one I think is pretty self-explanatory, as long as you don't quit, you can never be defeated. And I kind of call these four truths sort of the bedrock of my soul. I just think they're a good place to start to try to build a quality life off of.

Robert Poirier (21:44)
So

I love it. I love it. love the, we were talking about, I think it was prior to us recording about controlling your mindset. And I was sharing with you some examples with about my sons and stuff like that. And do you mind going into that a little bit more, maybe some examples of where, you know, maybe you put that in, where you, you enacted that with, with our growing up.

Terry Tucker (22:24)
Well, actually, let me kind of go back to my time in college. I had received a full scholarship to go play basketball at the Citadel. I'd never been away from home other than a week at a basketball camp in the summer or something like that. So I'm going from Chicago to Charleston, South Carolina. So I'm a thousand miles from home. I'm in a military school. They shaved my head. It's like being a boot camp. my brother and I were talking about this a couple

Robert Poirier (22:27)
Yeah, yeah, that'd be great.

Yeah.

Terry Tucker (22:51)
a couple of weeks ago, how, and I feel bad even saying this, but it's the truth, so I'm gonna say it. We went to college to play basketball. Getting an education was honestly secondary for us. And so I was like, you know, are you kidding me? I'm not doing this stuff. mean, you know, this military stuff's for the birds. I'm not doing this stuff. So I was literally walking over to tell the coaches I was quitting. Now I had no plan B.

You know, I had no idea what I was going to do when I went back to Chicago. But I thought, well, I'm going to go stop and see if I got any mail And I just happened to have a letter from my father. My father had never written me a letter before in his life. So I grabbed the letter. I went into the field house. I went up into the nosebleed section. I tore the letter open and I'm reading it. Robert, it was a seven page handwritten letter from my father that was basically pull your head out of your butt was really, was what the letter was. It was like, you've got a tremendous

opportunity to get a full ride to college, play Division 1 basketball. He said, you've called home seven times since you've been down there and not once have you asked how your mom's doing, how your brothers are doing, how your girlfriend's doing, your grandparents are Nothing. He said, you are so in your head. You've got to get out of your own way. You can do this. I love you. I'm proud of you. But you've got to decide you want to do this. By the time I finished reading the letter,

I was just, I was sobbing. And I was 50 feet away from the coach's office. So it was like, you're going to quit or are going to do this? And so I took the, I took the letter, folded it up, wiped my eyes. said, I cannot quit. I cannot quit. cannot let my father down like this. Four years later, walked across the stage. So.

Robert Poirier (24:38)
What great fatherly advice and that is, and you know that it can be so tough to have those talks with your kids because you know you're going to hurt them. You know, it's going to impact them, but I think it's so important. think so many times today we don't do that. We don't. Yeah.

Terry Tucker (24:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

No, we want to be our kids' friends today.

And I'm sorry, you're the parent, you're not their friend. You're the one who's got to say, I'm sorry, you're not going to that party because there's going to be no adult supervision there. And they bang up the stairs, slam the door, and tell you they hate you. And what do you say? Well, you may, but I love you, which is the reason I'm making this decision.

Robert Poirier (25:16)
Yeah.

that's a parent. That's part of being a parent. It's part of being a dad. It's okay. They get mad. that's part of it. Look, and I'm, you said it. So many of us today are, you know, don't want to upset our kids. want to be friends with them. I'd love to have my two sons on here and ask them, how many times has your dad told you that I am not your friend? One day I will be.

And hopefully we can sit down and sit across the table, have a beer together. But right now we're not friends. Like I am, I'm a parent.

How else did you come across these? Like I want to go into.

I know we're kind of skipping, the, what you leave behind, what you weave into somebody's brain, where did that come from? Where did that originate?

Terry Tucker (26:02)
So, know, people, well, how did you come up with these four truths? I came up with three and it's a really funny story, but it's true story. I was on a podcast called My Three Truths. And so it was, I need to come up with my three truths. And it wasn't just something I slapped together and say, okay, here's my three truths. It was something I spent a lot of time thinking about. And I came up with one, two, and four. And that's what I used. But then the more I started thinking about it after the podcast,

Robert Poirier (26:25)
Okay.

Terry Tucker (26:29)
That legacy truth, that what you leave behind, what your life is about, what's your purpose, did you live it, that kind of thing, I think is so important. And we like things as human beings in threes, know, ABC, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. We like threes, but I'm like, all right, I'm gonna make this four truths. And I added the legacy truth to it. And so I think that's incredibly powerful. What do you leave behind? What are you leaving?

Robert Poirier (26:41)
Sure, sure we do.

Terry Tucker (26:57)
What are you weaving in the hearts of other people? And when I was a hostage negotiator, I'll give you this, and I think this is a great parenting tool. We would never ask why questions. So it be like, well, Robert, why did you wear that shirt today? wait a minute, does Terry not like the shirt? Why will I not ask a why question? Because when we were young, our parents were always, why did you do that? If you did something wrong, it was, why did you do that?

Robert Poirier (27:21)
Mmm.

Terry Tucker (27:23)
So we would ask how and what questions. What made you wear that shirt today, Robert? That lands softer with our kid. And I also, I think, you know, like I remember saying to my dad one time, I think I'm going to get a tattoo. And my dad's response was, and then where are you going to live? You know, and I mean, But today, I'm better at that kind of stuff. You know, kid comes home and says, hey, I'm to dye my hair green.

Now, my dad would have said, and then where are you going to live? But maybe a better question or a better way to handle that is, you want to your hair green? That was another hostage technique we would use. would, we would call mirroring. We would take what somebody said and kind of make it on, you know, make it in a curious way. you, you want to dye your hair green? But the key to that question working is going silent after you say that. you want to dye your hair green?

Robert Poirier (28:04)
Marion, yeah.

Terry Tucker (28:19)
and that silence will get your child to start talking. Well, yeah, know, Bobby dyed his hair red and all the kids like him. so it sounds like you don't feel like you're being accepted amongst the other students in your class. Well, yeah, so it's not I want to dye my hair green. The real problem is much deeper than that. But by just saying what my dad said, then where are going to live? That never got to the problem. It never helped me as a kid when he would say that.

Robert Poirier (28:43)
Nice. Yeah.

Terry Tucker (28:49)
But knowing that as an adult, yeah, you probably don't want your kid to let your kid dye their hair green. But there's a deeper problem. There's something deeper they're trying to tell you. So probe that and probe it in a curious way and use silence to help you let them talk. this works in business, too. You ask a question, you be quiet, you let them talk. What do you get? Information, knowledge. Same thing with your children.

Robert Poirier (29:08)
Oh it does.

It's an awkward pause, right? It's that awkward. It's that awkward pause. And, and, you know, you're in, I hate to say it, put it this way, but you're in control and you know, you're doing that awkward pause on purpose. And then they, they have to fill it in. They try to fill it in. But I love that. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, I agree. And I love that about what it's what you leave behind. And I don't know.

Terry Tucker (29:18)
It's tone, we hate silence. We gotta fill it.

And each my girl. Yeah, each my now is a pair.

Robert Poirier (29:41)
That one really stood out to me. I mean, I love all four of them, but that really stood out to me. And, know, I was thinking before we were interviewing like last night or two nights ago. why, why does that one stand out? And I don't know, maybe it's the age, maybe it's my age and you start as you get older, you know, you realize, Hey, there's less moons in front than there are behind. And, you know, and it's what do you, what do you leave behind? And, you know, in trying to.

put that in my kids' heads now on, man, it can be a smile. It can be a, it literally can be a smile. Somebody that you're sitting across the lunch table with that maybe is having a bad day. It can be taking up for somebody. can, you know, and on the flip side, you know, a joking con. mean, my kids are jokesters, but you need to watch how you joke. You need to watch what you say.

because that can really impact somebody later on in life. I think about, I wasn't always the best kid. I think about things that I probably said to people back when I was a kid and kids can be vicious. And I always wonder like, did that impact them in a certain way? I hope it didn't. I hope I run into him again and tell him I'm sorry. it's.

Hopefully they don't even remember it. But I love that about what you leave behind. I do, think that's something we all need to think about more, whether it's in parenting, parenting or just daily life.

Terry Tucker (31:00)
I would agree. Yeah.

I'll tell you a quick story. We had just gotten a new car and I was a police officer. I was working nights. So I mean, I was kind of off my family's schedule and I remember being tired and I remember doing something. We were kind of setting the car up and I gave my daughter the keys and I'm like, hold on to these, will you? And she dropped them between the seats. And you know how you drop something between the seats? Like you can't get it. It's like, you know, and I

Robert Poirier (31:27)
Right.

Terry Tucker (31:30)
I just blew up on her because I was tired. You know, it wasn't her. She didn't do it on purpose. just... And I think that's the other thing as a parent that's important. And you just said it, you know, can I see that person again and apologize? Could I say, hey, know, dad was tired. That wasn't it. That's not an excuse. But I shouldn't have blown up on you like that. You didn't do anything wrong. You know, I'm sorry.

It's like it's a sign of weakness as a parent to say, I'm sorry, to say I made a mistake. But I think it's just the opposite. It's teaching your kids. Yeah, it's teaching your kids that when you make a mistake, apologize, own up to it. Be, I want to say be a man, be a woman. Be a person of integrity that says, yeah, I messed up. I blew it. I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry.

Robert Poirier (32:04)
I agree.

I could

not agree with you more. And you know, where I have fallen as a parent and have done the same things, you know, blown up for some stupid reason because of so many other factors that have happened throughout the day. Right. and then thinking about it, it's always after the, after they were asleep and thinking about it, like, my gosh. And then the next morning, Hey guys, we need to talk. Look, I'm sorry. I was so wrong.

and I should not have taken that out on you. You do see, you see how it affects the kids, impacts them positively.

But you're also teaching them, right? You're also teaching them to accept when they've done wrong and to do the same thing. And I agree, it's tough to do, but so important, so very important. Man, there's another one on there, the embracing pain and difficulty.

Can you give me some background on that?

Terry Tucker (33:10)
Yeah, I mean, embrace the pain. So our brains are hardwired to avoid pain and discomfort and to seek pleasure. So to the brain, the status quo, the way things are right now, hey, comfortable, familiar, leave it alone, don't touch it. But we all know this. The only way you're going to grow, the only way you're going to improve, the only way you're going to get better is if you step outside those comfort zones and do things that make you uncomfortable.

I used to, and my players would tell you this when I was coaching, I used to always tell my players, you need to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And so let me offer this. And I do this every day of my life. So I'm not offering your audience something that I don't do. Every day of your life, do one thing that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable, that's potentially embarrassing. It doesn't have to be a big thing.

But if you do those small things every day, when the big disasters in life hit us, and they hit all of us, we lose somebody who's close to us, as an adult, unexpectedly get let go from our job, like me, you find out you have a chronic or a terminal illness, you will be so much more resilient to handle that stuff than people who never challenge themselves, who never get off the couch. I mean, one of the things I do,

And I think the jury's still out on this, know, cold plunges and, you know, cold showers and stuff like that. I do that. I do that. I do that. I don't do the plunges. I do the showers. And I don't do it, you know, like I said, I think the science behind that is still out in terms of does it actually do anything for you? But what it does for me is when I go for my cancer treatment and I have my reactions and I shake and I throw up and I do all that kind of stuff.

Robert Poirier (34:34)
I cannot do that. I don't care. my goodness. No.

Okay.

Terry Tucker (34:58)
It almost preps me. You know, it's like, this is real uncomfortable taking this cold shower. You know, I take a cold shower. This is no big deal. I can handle this too. So it sort of, it preps me for something that I know is coming. And that's just one of the examples of things that I do.

Robert Poirier (35:01)
That makes sense.

No, that makes a lot of sense. It's funny. I laughed when you said get comfortable doing the uncomfortable, um, because every year before the last few years before the boys start school, I always kind of have a theme, right? And so last year that was our theme. Uh, that's what I came up with for, for them is going into the year. And I would remind them throughout is I want you to get comfortable doing something uncomfortable. And when I first told them, they were like, what?

And, know, and that's join this club that maybe you wouldn't do because it's not cool, but you have this interest in it in the back of your mind. Well, why would I do that? because you have an interest in it. Like I want you to push yourself in different ways. You know, I have one, one son who's pretty quiet and it's, you know, pushing him to, speak up more, you know, to really get out there and engage more.

And so I laughed and you said, I think that is so important. You know, there was something we were talking about before recording too, you know, where I've had to push myself as well as something that not comfortable with doing and, um, not wanting to do. And it is so important. You grow from that. You gain confidence, you get stronger. It's the same thing with working out, right? It's the pain from lifting weights and you

grow stronger, stronger there. And then with other things you grow stronger with your mindset, all of that.

Terry Tucker (36:37)
Yeah, and maybe a great thing at the dinner table every night is to ask your sons, what'd you fail at today?

Robert Poirier (36:43)
Have you listened to past podcasts? Cause I've talked about that. That is, ⁓ that is our weekly. That is so funny, Terry. Cause that, that is our weekly talk. ⁓ that is our weekly talk. What did you fail at? Like we can talk about what you did well at, but I probably already know it. What did you fail at? And the first few times it was hard. They didn't really know what they felled at or they didn't want to say it.

Terry Tucker (36:46)
Have you? No, I haven't caught that yet.

Good for you!

Robert Poirier (37:08)
But we do, that is one of the things we talk about. And if you haven't failed, you haven't tried, you haven't done anything. And then, okay, why did you fail?

You know, why, and then what could you have done differently? And I think even in my life, my business life,

It's the same thing with your, do that with my, with my team. Well, after we have a pitch, where did, where did we do well, but I want to focus more on where did we blow it? Where did we not do well and what can we do differently?

Terry Tucker (37:40)
Yeah, it is. maybe, you know, instead of saying, why did you fail? Maybe a better question is, what did you learn from that failure? You know, instead of taking away the why and going to the what? You know.

Robert Poirier (37:40)
But I think that's so important.

That's really good. That's a good way to put it. I like that. Now I

like that. I'm going start implementing that. I love that. I love that. But it's great because it goes back to these conversations, right? And that helps. That helps a lot to open up the conversations. And now I think that's very important. The not quitting.

man

Let's talk.

Terry Tucker (38:07)
Yeah, I mean, it's easy. It's easy to quit. It is. I'll you a story. When I was back at the Citadel, had my sophomore year, we had a president by the name of James Stockdale. Robert, you're pretty young, so I don't know if you remember Stockdale. He was a naval aviator. He was shot down during the Vietnam War.

Robert Poirier (38:12)
even easier today, right?

Okay.

Terry Tucker (38:31)
spent

eight years as a prisoner of war in the infamous prisoner of war camp was known as the Hanoi Hilton. And when he was released, he was actually given our nation's highest military award, the Medal of Honor. And he was kind of a savant. He ran as Ross Perot's vice president, presidential candidate when Perot ran. Yeah. So he was his vice president. But I remember being at an event. I mean, he was the president of college. I was a cadet. didn't spend a lot of time.

Robert Poirier (38:37)
yeah.

That's why the name, okay. yes, yes.

Terry Tucker (38:59)
But somebody asked him, who were the people that survived that brutality, that torture, those beatings? And he said, well, let me tell you the people who didn't survive. He said, it wasn't the big, strong, tough guys who thought that they could handle any kind of abuse or torture. And the next thing he said really surprised me. He said, the other group that didn't survive were the optimists. He said, these were the people that thought they would be rescued or let go by Thanksgiving or Christmas or Easter.

And when those holidays would come and go and they were still captives, he said those people died of a broken heart. He said the people that survived were the people who understood what they could control, which according to Snotkna was basically the breathing in our lungs and the thoughts in our minds. Everything else is the discretion of the enemy and controlled it. And so I always, when people ask me about that, I always say, you know, if something's bothering you, if there's a, if there's an issue, there's a problem, just take a piece of paper.

and write down everything that's bugging you about it. Get everything out on that piece of paper. And then go through and cross out everything that you have no control over. Whatever's left on that piece of paper is something you can work on. The rest of the stuff outside your purview.

Robert Poirier (40:13)
I love it. I love it. I love it. And it's mindset, you know, in the quitting, interesting. You were talking about that. There was a guy from where I grew up, Jimmy Carpenter, I think was his name. And he was also, um, uh, in Vietnam, P O W, uh, pilot as well. Uh, I don't know if he was in Hanoi Hilton or not, but when I asked, I was listening to him speak one time and when asked, how did you survive? He said in his mind every day,

continuously he played golf. That's what he focused on. Continuously played golf at this one golf course, the local golf course. And that was what drove him to get out. He saw that in his head. And when he did get out, finally got out and played in the course, I can't remember, but he shot this unbelievable round. But he literally, you know, every shot went through.

playing 18 holes, know, sometimes it's to the left, sometimes it's to the right, You know, sometimes he hit the ball fat, sometimes he hit it perfect. But it is that mindset and then of not quitting. And it's so easy to quit today, I think.

Terry Tucker (41:20)
It is because your brains, your mammalian brain tells you this hurts, it's uncomfortable, stop. Don't do that. But we also know for marathon runners that marathon runners hit that wall, they get to that point where I can't go on anymore. But they also know that if they can push through that, that they can get that second wind and they can finish the race. I have a friend of mine who's a former Navy SEAL, really great guy, young man.

and he calls me on my off weeks of treatment just to check up on me. And the SEALs have, have you heard of the 40 % rule? Okay. Okay. So the SEALs kind of have this, and again, these are some of the toughest warriors that we have. That if you're at the end of your rope, if you can't go on, they have, they say that you're at 40 % of your maximum. And so when you're done, I can't put another foot in front of the other.

Robert Poirier (41:53)
I have. Yeah. But, but talk about it for those that haven't.

Terry Tucker (42:15)
you're only at 40 % of your maximum and you still have another 60 % left in reserve to give to yourself. So if you ever think, you know, when your mind's telling you, this hurts, it's uncomfortable, whether it's sports, whether, you know, you're, want to stay late and make that phone call, you know, to get that client on board, but I'll do it tomorrow. Any of that kind of, I'll put it off. I don't want to do it right now. That's your brain telling you it's uncomfortable. And there's a, there's another story.

kind of dovetails with this. True story happened back in the 1950s at Johns Hopkins University. There was a professor there by the name of Richter and he was doing experiments with rats. And so hang with me, now I'm gonna tell a rat story. And he wanted to see how long rats could tread water. And so he put a group of rats in a tank of water that was over their head and the rats treaded water for about 15 minutes before they sank and drowned.

And I know that sounds very cruel, for science, that's what they did back in the 1950s. Then he took another group of rats and he put them in that exact same tank of water. But he watched them much closer, much closer this time. And just as those rats were getting ready to sink and drown, he reached in, grabbed them, pulled them out, dried them off and let them rest for a while. And then he took those exact same rats and put them back in that exact same tank of water.

And on average, the second time around, those rats treaded water for 60 hours. And think about that. So the first time, 15 minutes. It's not like you're going to flunk a test or your marriage is going to fail or your business is going to go under. You're going to die. Second time, 60 hours, which taught me two things. Number one, the importance of hope in our lives that if we know we're doing the right things, maybe not today, maybe not this month, maybe not even this year.

Robert Poirier (43:45)
Wow.

Right.

Terry Tucker (44:07)
But there's a good chance we'll get to where we want to be. Don't quit. Keep going. And the second thing it taught me was just how much more our physical bodies can handle. Now, don't get me wrong. I think we all have a breaking point. But I think that breaking point is so much further down the road because when things start hurting, our brain starts telling us, it hurts, it's uncomfortable, stop it. You don't have to listen to your brain. You can push forward and keep going.

Robert Poirier (44:33)
I love it mindset. I love it. You know, and you talk about the 40%. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure you know who David Goggins is. And I mean, that's his whole thing. Right. And, uh, talking about that. So, yeah, uh, I love that. I think that's, I think that's so important. I, I, I feel like it is, you know, I'd said earlier, I do feel like it's very easy to quit today and not that it's celebrated, but I, I think we're

Terry Tucker (44:41)
yeah.

Robert Poirier (45:01)
probably a lot closer in age. nobody quit. He just didn't quit.

You know, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think those are values that are extremely helpful in life to instill in kids. I mean, it's, it's, I see that in the working world. I see that with, with, I say kids and they are kids to me, but ones that are just out of college. it's tough. my goodness. The hours are long.

Terry Tucker (45:05)
I mean, and that's why the seals are so successful. You're gonna kill me. I will not quit. Yeah.

Robert Poirier (45:30)
I'm just not going to do this. That's life. That's life.

Terry Tucker (45:36)
My

brother, the one who's a basketball coach as an assistant coach, works for, well, this is a while back. Is Ernst & Young still around, the consulting firm? Okay. So he works for him. said, you know, I'm sitting at my desk and one of the partners comes by and I don't remember the name. who's Mary Smith? It's like, she's a new college graduate that we just started. It's like, why? Is there a problem?

Robert Poirier (45:44)
Yeah, they are. They are.

Terry Tucker (46:00)
He said, yeah, her mother called me and wanted to know why she couldn't come home for the holidays. And my brother's assistant coach was like, I'm really sorry. I'll take care of that. And the partner said, oh no, I'll take care of it because I'm going to call her mother back and tell her, absolutely, she can come home for the holidays. She just won't have a job when she comes back.

Robert Poirier (46:19)
Yeah, that's that. I talked about that on episode. The number of parents, had a guy on here and he was talking about the number of parents that go with kids to their first job interviews. That's astounding.

Like what is happening to this generation?

Terry Tucker (46:35)
There's a really good book that you might enjoy in some of your audience. It's called The Coddling of the American Mind. It's a really good book. It's written by two professors from different schools. And they kind of go about how, you know, kids today, know, college needs to be a safe space and, you know, yeah. And do I agree that you shouldn't be assaulted at college? Yes. But college and even high school to a degree,

Robert Poirier (46:41)
I have to read that.

Terry Tucker (47:02)
I don't agree. College and high school should challenge you. They should challenge your values. They should challenge your morals. They should challenge your ideals. They should challenge how you think. That's how you learn. That's how you grow. So they shouldn't be a safe space. They should have people with different views. I remember my high school in Chicago, one of my classmates, years after we graduated, got a job there. And everybody loved his class. It was kind of a current events civics type class.

And I remember one time he brought in the head of the Nazi party to talk to the students because he wanted them, you know, we're a Catholic school. This is what we believe. Well, let me show you the other side of this. And no parents went ballistic. There wasn't picketing at the school or anything like that. It was like it was a learning environment. We're going to give you both sides and we want you as the parents, you as the children, as the young adults.

Robert Poirier (47:37)
wow.

Terry Tucker (47:59)
Figure this out for yourself. And kids aren't doing that.

Robert Poirier (48:02)
Yeah.

They're not, and we're not pushing them to. We're not pushing them to, it's also not being taught in school, critical thinking is not being taught in school, or very rarely is it. I do that with my sons, there's subjects we'll come up with and we'll debate them. We might, I don't know, whether it's gun control, abortion, whatever, and they have to argue different.

different sides of it. but there's, just don't see that in school anymore. And, you know, we'll talk about current topics. You know, we were talking about the media and stuff like that earlier, but, it's what you see in just the acceptance and, know, they don't look at all the sources. We don't force them to, we, we are lazy as a society. We accept what's in bold print and what, who's the loudest and

We don't look deeper into it. we just don't, but, I got, now I could even go down the rabbit hole of AI cause that kind of concerns me. Where are you really? Because my youngest, is quick to pull out that jet chat GPT. I'm like, well, you know, that's only as good as the information that's put in there. Yeah. But it scans everything on the internet. Well, you know, the internet's not always right, but

Terry Tucker (48:55)
I was thinking the same thing when you were saying that. Yes I was.

Robert Poirier (49:12)
I don't know. I don't know. But look.

Terry Tucker (49:14)
I mean,

my wife's company is dealing with that now with, you she's in the financial management services industry. And, you know, we're going to have an open source AI where what if you put a, you know, contract information out there or your strategy, how you're managing money out there. Wait a minute, you know, do you want that out there? But we're lazy. it's easy. You know, I need to write a memo. here, go write the memo for me.

Robert Poirier (49:33)
I

I know that's, that's a huge issue, huge problem coming up. that really concerns me. I think there's going to be a ton of benefits. I think there's, there'll be a ton of benefits, but, that's what concerns me at least, you know, and the schools are aware of it too. mean, I know there's a lot of software they have that can, catch AI written papers. And it was funny. I did see this.

Terry Tucker (49:49)
Yes.

Robert Poirier (50:03)
It was a graph showing, I think it was the different AI services, chat, GPT and different ones. And it was showing the usage how in June, the beginning of June, how it dropped off so much. And it was starting to drop off in May and then it really fell off in June. Well, yeah, school ended. Yeah. It makes it makes a lot of sense, but,

Terry Tucker (50:16)
⁓ School's out.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Robert Poirier (50:30)
I look, I appreciate you coming on. I really do. And, you know, I just thought you'd be somebody super interesting to talk to the Four Truths really, when I saw those, was something that really stood out to me. And, you know, I appreciate you coming on and sharing what is there anything else you would like to leave? I would love to say for dads, but we have a lot of moms and dads that listen, any other advice that you'd really love to share with them?

Terry Tucker (50:56)
Yeah, I guess let me give you this, and I wish I would have known this. I think this is something that could be very important to pass on to your kids. It's more important who you work with and who you work for than it is the work that you do. Find people that care about you. Find people that are willing to invest in you.

Find people that want to see you succeed. Hitch your wagon to those people and climb your mountains together.

Robert Poirier (51:31)
love it. That's great advice.

Terry Tucker (51:32)
I think it's just great advice.

wish you know, we are the product of the people we hang around with. Find good people that want to see you succeed and you can do anything you want in the world. I mean, if COVID taught us anything, we're not good separate. We're not good when we're isolated. We're much better together. Find good people, hang around with them. You'll be a better person.

Robert Poirier (51:37)
Mah, so-

That's beautiful advice. I absolutely love it. Now you have a book.

Well, tell us about it. We'd love for people to learn.

Terry Tucker (51:58)
Sure. Sustainable excellence, 10 principles to leading your uncommon and extraordinary life. You you and I were talking before, it's like never expected to write a book, never wanted to write a book. Kind of an old joke that says when we talk to God, it's called prayer. When God talks to us, it's called schizophrenia. So God has never talked to me and said, Terry, write a book. But I think what God has done is put enough people in my path that have made the same suggestion over and over. so really sustainable excellence was born out of

two conversations I have. I'll make this quick. So first was a player that had moved to the area in Colorado with her fiance, where my wife and I live and the four of us had dinner one night. And I remember saying to her after dinner that I was excited that she was living close and I could watch her find and live her purpose. And Robert, she got real quiet for a while and then she looked at me and she said, well, coach, what do you think my purpose is? I said, I have absolutely no idea what your purpose is.

but that's what your life should be about. Finding the reason you were put on the face of this earth. And there is a reason. Using your unique gifts and talents and living that reason. So that was one interaction. And then I had a young man in college reach out to me on social media and said, what do you think are the most important things I need to learn not to just be successful in my job or in business, but to be successful in life? And I didn't want to give him, know, get up early, work hard, help others. I didn't want to give him sort of cliches.

So I spent some time taking some notes, kind of had these 10 thoughts, these 10 ideas, these 10 principles. So I sent them to him. And then I stepped back and I was like, well, I got a life story that fits underneath that principle, or I know somebody whose life emulates this principle. So literally during the four to five month period where I was healing after I had my leg amputated, I sat down at the computer every day and I built stories and they're real stories about real people underneath each of the principles.

That's how sustainable excellence came to be.

Robert Poirier (53:52)
love it. How can people find it?

Terry Tucker (53:55)
Yeah, you can get sustainable excellence anywhere. You can get a book online, Amazon, Apple iBooks. You can go to my website, motivationalcheck.com, get access to it there.

Robert Poirier (54:04)
Okay. Okay. I will put a link and I'll put a link to your social media, to your webpage. And, you know, if anybody's looking for that, want to get in touch with you as well. I'll certainly include that. Terry, I appreciate you spending the afternoon. I really do. you're a fascinating person and a very interesting history.

But then, you know, the four truths that you laid out, I mean, that was really what caught my eye. And I appreciate you, I appreciate you coming on and sharing those. Certainly do.

Terry Tucker (54:33)
Robert, thanks for having

me on. I really enjoyed the conversation with you today.

Robert Poirier (54:36)
Well, look, we will have to do it again in the future. ⁓ look, thank you all for listening to the Dad to Dad's podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple. You can also find us on YouTube as well as Instagram. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button. Same time, leave a comment. I read each and every one of them. love reading, love reading them as well as receiving the feedback and we will talk to you guys next time.