Divorcing a Narcissist? Family Law Attorney Explains What Happens Next: Erin Schaden

"Love your kid more than you hate your ex."

In this comprehensive, deep-dive interview, Robert sits down with 30-year family law veteran and divorce coach Erin Schaden to pull back the curtain on the "wasteland" of family court. This isn't just a conversation about law—it's a survival guide for parents dealing with high-conflict personalities, narcissistic exes, and a legal system that often feels irretrievably broken.

What we cover in this full session:

• The High-Conflict Playground: Why the courtroom is a "magnet" for narcissists and how they use litigation to stay connected to you through chaos.
• The 80/20 Attorney Rule: Why 20% of lawyers thrive on conflict, and how high-conflict people "find their own" in the legal pool.
• The Guardian Ad Litem (GAL) Crisis: The danger of under-trained "neutrals" and the "Great Delay" that keeps families in limbo.
• The "Kitten & Blanket" Analogy: A powerful look at how childhood trauma creates adults who are addicted to conflict.
• Radical Solutions: Erin’s proposal for a pilot program to bypass traditional evidence rules and give judges the power to be "Deciders."
• The "Dads in the Middle" Debate: A raw discussion on judicial bias,  and why men often suffer in silence during divorce.
• The Success Roadmap: Erin’s "Awareness, Acceptance, Action" framework for finding stillness before filing.

Connect with Erin Schaden:

• Website: ErinSchaden.com
• Instagram: @DivorceCoachErin
• Free Resource: Message "GUIDE" to Erin on social media for the Divorce Survival Guide.

#divorce #highconflictdivorce #narcissisticabuse #familycourt #childcustody #divorcinganarcissist #coparenting #custodybattle #familylaw #divorceadvice #singleparent #parentingafterdivorce #toxicrelationships #DivorceStrategy #fatherhood

Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Erin Schaden Welcome back to the Dad Dads podcast.

Erin Schaden (00:03)
Thank you. Thanks for having me. So good to see you. Happy 2026.

Robert Poirier (00:06)
I so much to

you as well. And I so much appreciate you coming back on and look for those that don't know Erin she's been on several times before discussing basically all things divorce and child custody. And she's able to do that. 28, 29 years in family law, 30 plus years in family law, also a divorce coach. You've even gone viral.

Erin Schaden (00:25)
30 plus.

Robert Poirier (00:33)
A few times from some of your comments of just sharing your experiences on here and, look, and so I definitely appreciate you coming on. So thanks for sharing your time. So look, I want to jump into this. ⁓ I know we've talked about, ⁓ you know, divorce and child custody and all that in the past and kind of how you prepare. We've even talked about when you are divorcing and high, a high conflict.

Erin Schaden (00:38)
Yeah, controversial.

Thank you for having me.

Robert Poirier (01:02)
person or somebody maybe with a personality disorder. We talked about how to prepare for that, but it generally doesn't end after you divorce them. Yeah. So that's what I wanted to go into is like, let's talk about what happens after the fact. Like what can, what can you expect after the divorce?

Erin Schaden (01:11)
God, No, for sure. I mean, yeah. I I just had this...

Yeah.

Well, you can expect high conflict until your kids are of age and are no longer kids. I mean, that's bad news. Like nobody wants to hear that, right? And you have to kind of, as a coach or an attorney, you have to kind of time that because I mean, you lose a lot of people right there. I mean, people just stick their heads in the sand and are like.

You know, I don't want to hear that, right? ⁓ But it doesn't end, you know? I mean, if you are divorcing a high conflict person, it's going to take longer, it's going to cost more money, ⁓ exponentially so. ⁓ And then once it's over, you're going to get hauled back into court over and over and over again because, I mean, let's just be honest. The courtroom is the narcissist, high conflict person's playground. Like that is the best place because there's a million friction points. Reasonable people would be like,

Well, I'm not going to go back to court over that, right? Like that's ridiculous. Okay, fine. I'm not going to get as much money or, you know, I'll give up a weekend here or there, whatever. Like in the, in the large scheme of things, it's like, it's not worth the conflict, right? It's not worth the drama. It's not worth the money. It's not worth it. The stress that it places on everybody, but the high conflict person, this is how they make connections with other people.

They're not functional connections, right? They're not functional connections between two human beings, right? Where like you and I have a connection, right? Like, and you know, I respect you as a professional and what you're doing, trying to bring the message to dads. This is not an anti-woman, anti-mom.

podcast at all. Like I've been on it many times. As you well know, like I coach women and have represented women just as often as I have men. Different, there's different priorities, right? So like you and I have a connection in that regard. You know, ⁓ it is based on some basic fundamental principles like, you know, integrity, accountability, ⁓ dependability, those kinds of things. The high conflict person doesn't play by any of those sets of rules unless it benefits

them. So it's like, it's kind of like, ⁓ it's guerrilla warfare, really. Like, it's just all the time and they're going to do, like, they're going to be, if it benefits them, they're going to be very agreeable and they're going to be very whatever until it doesn't benefit them anymore. And then all the rules change. All the rules change. And so the reason that the courtroom and litigation is the place ⁓ is because

It's the place where they feel the most connected, right? As dysfunctional as it is, know, a stupid example, but like somehow in their brains, like I was raising these little kittens, right? And I put these like blankets down.

never thinking to myself that that would teach them to pee on blankets, right? Like, but I did inadvertently teach these cats to pee on blankets, right? Not what I intended. That's exactly what happens with the narcissists. Somewhere way back in their history or the high conflict person, like some are way back in their history. Things got screwed up and conflict was the way that they felt alive, that they felt connected, that they felt seen, that they felt heard, that they felt powerful. And it got reinforced and reinforced and reinforced. And now we just have this

who cannot connect up in any other manner, right? So you're divorced. You can go back to court for custody over and over and over again. Material change of circumstances, best interest of the child. I mean, that's pretty much wherever you are and whatever jurisdiction, even in most countries, you might call it something different. There might be different steps to get there whatever, but generally speaking, every system that I've ever heard of, okay, is

we're looking at something significant happening in the lives of the parents or the children to warrant you getting back into court. Otherwise you just would get a court date in 2095 because like there'd be so many people in there. You got to have some threshold to hit that's big enough to allow people to get in, but small enough to keep people, you know, everybody out, right? And then you've got to have like this, you know, best interest of the child. What is in the child's best interest? So yeah, I mean,

Robert Poirier (05:32)
Do they care?

I mean, they don't care. Do they?

Erin Schaden (05:34)
Well,

I don't think that's true. I don't think that the high conflict person doesn't care. I think that they're coming from a very egocentric place, right? So I don't think, it's a lack of capacity. It's a lack of capacity, I think. It's a lack of capacity. They don't have the capacity to take a step back, And to look at it from a different perspective, right? They see things from a very egocentric perspective,

Robert Poirier (05:45)
Yeah, that's probably the wrong way to say it. They do care, but it's, yeah.

Erin Schaden (06:02)
I am the mother or father. I therefore know what is in the child's best interest. The fact that the child might be advocating for something completely different ⁓ doesn't enter in. Well, you're the child. I'm the parent. That's the way it's supposed to be, right? They just don't ever, ⁓ they don't have the capacity to step back.

like other people do. And again, when you've got this high conflict personality, and the only way that they ever feel connected is when they are in the midst of conflict, they just have to create more conflict, because that's the only time that they feel connected, right? That's where they feel valued, that's where they feel heard, that's where they feel like ⁓ effective, right? So, yeah. And so, I think that, know, it's, I think that,

Robert Poirier (06:37)
This is chaos.

That's where they get their attention from.

Erin Schaden (06:49)
To say that high conflict people or narcissistic people or people with personality disorders don't care, I don't think that that's valid. I do think that they are limited in their varying capacities to see things from other people's perspectives, right? And I think what makes you a particularly effective parent is when you can see things from your perspective and then you can take a step back and you can step into the shoes of your child and you can say, if I were, you know,

Sally, how could Sally, what are the various permutations that Sally could feel in this situation, right? And incumbent upon that is that...

I think what the high conflict person misses, like the biggest gap there is that the two people that this child loves most in the world not getting along is the single most detrimental thing that could ever happen.

Right? So when you've got the high conflict person that can't feel connected unless they're always engaging in conflict, right? And then you've got this child that the more conflicted it is, the worse the child does. And the more distant the child feels from both parents, because, you know, especially when the conflict gets absurd, right? Then the child is just like, I can't rely on either one of these people, you know? And that's where we lose. It is. They love, regardless of how

Robert Poirier (08:06)
And that's the last thing the kids want, right? That's the last thing they want is to see the, two parents, the two

parents they love the most fighting. Yeah.

Erin Schaden (08:13)
Exactly. And

they're looking to for their well-being. I mean, we're talking about minors, right? So whether we're talking about a three-year-old or a 14-year-old or a 17-year-old, we're still talking about minors. So in the eyes of the law, like they are dependent upon us for everything in that regard, right? And when you have the two people that you love that are, know, ⁓ given this responsibility by the law,

who cannot see eye to eye on anything. And when, especially when you do that over time, the conflict starts at three, like the parents separate at three. And then, you I got a client right now that's in the throes of it and his kids are little.

you know, but but lucky for him, he sees it. He sees it. Right. And so we're working together to kind of like streamline this process. Right. ⁓ But it's just it's really difficult. Right. It's a really difficult situation and the kids lose faith. And then that's where we lose our kids. Right. That's where we lose the kids. The kids are going to go, I can't rely on mom. She's nuts. I can't rely on dad. He's nuts. So I'm going to turn to my friends and, know, they're doing meth So that's a great idea. You know, they're having sex with the entire football team. That's a great idea.

that right like and that's where we lose our kids right.

Robert Poirier (09:25)
such a great point. You know, we think that, you know, people think that when they divorce someone, it's high conflict, whether it's personality disorder, whatever it may be that I'm done and you're not, you're not. So what does that look like? You know, violation of parenting agreements. Is that the norm? Like what are ways that they, mean, you've said it, you're going to be back in court for various things. What are those things?

Erin Schaden (09:36)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, okay, I think that there's two different paths, okay, depending on who you've got as the high conflict parent. Not who if you've got mom or dad. I think I've seen moms do this, I've seen dads. I don't think it's gender specific. I think it's just, there's a particular type of high conflict person that does path A and there's another type of high conflict person that does path B. Path A. Path A is they're the stonewaller, right? The agreement says this, the court order says this, and they're like,

Yeah, you're just not getting him back on Monday. And they just, and it's just, they just hijack it and they just do whatever they want and they leave it to you to be the person that has to take them back to court, right? They put the onus on you. They just violate, violate, violate, violate, violate. And then you're like, you're talking to your attorney. Is this enough? Is this enough? And you know, usually they start off really small. Like it's like the child is supposed to be back at 3 p.m. and they bring him back at eight.

You know, and it's this slow erosion. Sometimes it's kind of both middle fingers and I'm just not, you know, you're not getting them back this week because I decided you're not getting them back this week and I'll give them back to you in two weeks when it's your turn again, blah, blah, blah on some, you know, pretense, you know, they're sick and want to be home with me or they need to be with their, you know, this parent or whatever. Then the other path are the people that are just going to take you back to court.

Robert Poirier (10:52)
Right.

Erin Schaden (11:10)
Right? So you've got the Stonewallers and then you've got the litigators, right? They're like, you you step outside the line at all. You bring them back at five five. And the next day you're getting, you're supposed to have them back at five. You got stuck in traffic. You texted appropriately, hey, stuck in traffic. We're going to be back at, you know, five, like five minutes late. And the next day you get a letter from their attorney. You know, you have now begun a habitual pattern of being tardy.

Right? Like, and it's like, I was literally tardy one time and then they just, then they just lie and no, no, you were tardy on this date and this date and this date and I've got the records to prove it. And then, and then that is the inroad to the litigation, right? That's, that's the place that you're going to go.

Robert Poirier (11:48)
You know, in the false allegations we've talked about before, and it always gets so much response by so many sharing, you know, where their ex has,

you know, accuse them of certain things that were so far from the truth. There needs to be some sort of punishment. they, I just feel like there has to be something within the court system.

Erin Schaden (12:11)
I don't disagree with you.

I don't disagree with you. I I think in about, I don't know, probably another decade, we're going to see, like, it's so funny. Like we've talked about this before. We spent a good 25 years getting fault out of divorce. I mean, like maybe 30.

Robert Poirier (12:15)
Because they use it to manipulate the court, right?

Erin Schaden (12:32)
right, to get fault out of, you know, some states on the West Coast, I mean, it's kind of the Western, you know, the kind of, we'll call it liberal tide that starts over on the West Coast and kind of moves. But I mean, Maryland didn't get truly no fault divorce until fairly recently, right? You had to have grounds, one year, two year separation. I'm sorry.

Robert Poirier (12:40)
Right.

There's still so I think it's only, I think it's only like 20 states though, isn't it? That had,

I think it's only 20 states that have that right. Or, well, you know what I'm thinking about? I'm thinking about 50 50 custody. I think it's like 18 or 20 states right now that have that on the custody part of

Erin Schaden (12:55)
I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

⁓ Yeah, it's I think I was trying to look really quickly and that my skills don't I can't I can't pull it up that quick but ⁓ but we try so so everybody was like no fault. No fault. No fault. No fault, right and and probably I don't quote me

you're going to quote me on this or anybody's going to quote me on this, I'm not sure whether or not it was the women's liberation movement that moved in that direction or not. I know that that had a big factor in it that women were very much tied to marriage and that we really pushed to have it no fault and just like walk away kind of divorce because that was what we needed to not be stuck in these horrible marriages where we being abused and everything else. Taking that aside. then then it just was kind of like, OK, let's just remove this idea of fault. But if you look at

at

the comments. I mean, if you look at the comments of that post that we had that went viral a couple years ago, right, like over a million views, right? 2 million views. And what was the comment? What was the thing? It was this concept of women who don't work and who cheat getting alimony.

Robert Poirier (13:56)
It's like two, no, it's like 2 million views, Erin.

Yep.

Erin Schaden (14:11)
Right? And

Robert Poirier (14:11)
Yep.

Erin Schaden (14:12)
it's like, and I think that we're going to see the public opinion tide turn and that we're going to have some sort of hybrid fault kind of thing be entered back in because there's this idea of this unfairness, right?

And it doesn't matter. doesn't have to be gender specific anymore. Women pay alimony to men, men pay alimony to women. ⁓ It happens all the time. Whoever's earning the more money or who is the breadwinner. And women are, you know, breadwinners in today's world. ⁓ Maybe not in all the states and all the places and stuff like that, but they are, right? Far more. And women are ordered to pay spousal support often. But I think what we're going to see is like kind of a turning of the tide a little bit back. I don't think we're ever going to go all the way back where if you don't

Robert Poirier (14:38)
Yeah, yeah.

Erin Schaden (14:54)
have these grounds then you're never going to be able to get divorced. I don't think we're going to go back to there but I do think that we're going to see some things change particularly with spousal support right? If you cheated and you and that cheating like especially the kind of you know true cheating where it's like you know

you know, you had an affair, they had an affair, and then you decided the marriage was over. Not that situation. I'm talking about where you're loving and married and you're committed and you're doing the deal and you believe in the marriage and everything else, and then you get walloped blindside with, you know, the affair partner and, you know, the secretary, the person they meet at work, whatever, right? Like, you get walloped in that way. I think we're going to see that kind of come back. The public and the masses are going to ask for the court to stop allowing

Robert Poirier (15:31)
Right, right.

Erin Schaden (15:43)
that kind of bad behavior to then be rewarded financially. In the way that the law is applied, they're not tied together. But on an emotional level, they are absolutely tied together. And it doesn't matter what you tell them. Well, legally, that's over here and this is all over here. No, it's not. So I think we're going to see that change in the next decade or so. And I think also,

Robert Poirier (15:50)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (16:06)
Now I'm going get all the way around to my point though, what we started to talk about. I think we're also going to hopefully begin to see the court take some punitive steps for the high conflict, ⁓ flagrant disregard of the rules and everything else. Because family court most of the time is like, okay, you're done. Go and sin no more. Be grownups. Get along. Stop the nonsense. Don't come back. And then you come back. And then you come back.

And I would say that almost, it is almost the number one thing that people are upset about in their divorce is it's like, I played by the rules. I gave, I was told to give my discovery in 30 days. I gave my discovery in 30 days. It was a giant pain in the ass. I didn't go on the ski trip with all my friends because I had to stay home and dig through documents for an entire weekend, you know, like, you know, and then supplement it and do all the things. And I played by the rules and it's been six months and I still don't have the other side's discovery. How is that fair?

Right? And I agree. I think the court should be much more swift. think nothing draconian like, okay, you get to produce no evidence at trial or whatever, but it's like, oh my gosh, your discovery is not in in 30 days. That's a $250 fine. You pay that to the other party.

Robert Poirier (17:19)
That, yes, yes.

Erin Schaden (17:21)
Second

violation, it's now a thousand dollar fine. Let's get your attention, please. And if we start doing those kinds of things with people, they're going to start paying attention, right? The attorneys are going to start paying attention. They're going to start not allowing their clients to kind of drift, you know, through the, through the stuff.

Robert Poirier (17:36)
you're right. I mean, if it's turnover discovery and then it's, you know, half ass done, you know, hardly any, you know, hardly anything's, ⁓ presented to the other party, which I mean, that's common, right? ⁓ I mean, it's just another way to delay and to manipulate the system and, know, going back to the false allegations, I mean, that seems like that is one way that they use minute to manipulate the

the system there.

Erin Schaden (18:06)
Well, here's, you know, not to plug myself in egregiously, but like here's one of the ways that I think working with a coach can help in this is that oftentimes it's not necessarily a false allegation, right? It's a difference of perspective, right? So there's truth, right? And then there's the truth that I see and the truth that you see, right? And it's not always

Robert Poirier (18:26)
Good point.

Erin Schaden (18:35)
a lie. It's not always wrong, right? ⁓ You're coming at it from a particular vantage point, the other side is coming at it. But I think that that's why having a good attorney or a coach or a therapist or somebody, a friend that's well-versed in the whole divorce...

you know, situation can help provide some perspective and some context and be like, okay, you know, So I think having somebody to kind of ground you and offer up perhaps a perspective that you're

missing,

then there's the true just liars. We'll just call them what they are. They're liars. They're fabricating things. You arrived home with all of their things at five o'clock on the dot and they just completely say, well, you didn't bring the kids home last night. What? I did bring the kids home.

Here's a picture of me, of my ring camera with the kids with all their stuff leaving the house. Here's a, here's a, here's like my, my tracking map that like shows that I went directly to your house. Here's your ring camera footage showing me getting out of the car. And it's like, nope, never got him. Don't know what you're talking about.

Robert Poirier (19:35)
So here's Erin, you know, I like you a lot. I mean a ton, but, and I have a lot of respect for you, but here's where I have an issue with a lot of family law attorneys. I'm not saying all of them.

Erin Schaden (19:45)
Okay, give it to me. Give it to me.

Robert Poirier (19:50)
But you know, my day job, this is definitely not it. My day job is commercial real estate. It's a broker, right? And so when I have a client that is that when they sell value, their property way too high, I'll tell them like, no, I can't sell it for 20 million. It's worth 15 million. You know, or when I'm not, I'm not going to list it out there for 20 million.

I look like I don't know what I'm doing or when, when we're in negotiations, same thing. You know, I will tell them, no, it's ridiculous. That's this, this is customary. This is the way it's done. ⁓ you know, you're being unreasonable. I have, I have dropped listings and I have not taken listings because of an unreasonable party, but it just seems like where my issue is, is

Erin Schaden (20:21)
Right.

Robert Poirier (20:43)
I feel like that a lot of attorneys will not tell their client like, Hey, no, this isn't in the best interest of the child. And they don't push back. just go forward and there's not some sort of moral personal ethics. And is it just a dollar for dollars? Is it just, Hey, I'm a hired gun.

This is what they want me to do. I'll do it. Cause it seems like, you know, in these stories that when I talked to other people, it seems like that is almost the norm.

Erin Schaden (21:20)
So again, this is gonna seem like an egregious plug for my profession, but I I've been doing this for 30 years, right? And generally speaking in all the different jurisdictions that I've practiced in, all the different places that I've worked, I think most attorneys will give it 80 % of them are good ethical attorneys that do tell their clients the truth. I'm saying, listen. Nope, nope.

Robert Poirier (21:41)
80%. Are you sure you don't want to switch that 20?

Erin Schaden (21:45)
Nope, I'm going with the 80. And I said, this is gonna seem like an egregious plug for my profession. But I'm telling you, no matter where I've been, 80 % of the family law, I'm only speaking about family law. I'm not getting over into real estate or any of that. I don't have any information. I have no authority to speak on that. But family law, I feel like I do. And I feel like 80 % of the time, the attorneys that are in the trenches doing this day in, day out, they do have those conversations with their clients. They do. And the client, you know,

Robert Poirier (21:57)
Right, right, right.

Erin Schaden (22:12)
The client is always right to some degree. so...

you have to walk the line and everybody's got a little bit of a different line. As an attorney, you give advice, you tell the person, hey, listen, okay, best case scenario from the course of action you wanna take is this, worst case scenario is this, my professional recommendation is we do this, right? And then the client says, okay, and hopefully you've done a good job of screening the client, you and the client are simpatico and you guys are good and the client listens to you and they pay their bills and everything's great. But then there's the wobblers, right? Things get wobbly between attorneys and clients, right?

I'm going to give 10 % of that 20 that do not operate ethically, all right? It is a dollar sign thing. 10 % is just dollars. Like, oh, you want to go to court and fight over a completely ridiculous issue that's going to, you're going to lose? Fine. No skin off my back. You're going to pay me 15 grand for that? Great. There are those people. Then you have to consider there's also the other 10 % and they have personality disorders also. So now you have

litigants that have personality disorders and attorneys that have personality and judges and GALs and all the other court people. Like, so when you add that into the mix, it's not, I don't think it's motivated by dollars on the personality disorder. It's, it's motivate, it's conflict. It is conflict, right? I mean, and I've seen some absolutely stunningly effective, completely narcissistic opposing councils craft

absolutely horrific narratives that are devastating, are wholly, I think back to this one, I was just working as coach, I wasn't working, but there was a scene in the park and it was our client's mother who was foreign, didn't even speak English. She just happened to be walking through the park and the other side, it was dad, dad and the kids,

happened to be in the park. So of course the children see their grandmother and they go running over. I am not exaggerating when the attorney got a two page letter spinning this very innocent, it was a small tiny little town. was like, there's like one park. Like if you're gonna go out, spun it into this malevolent, like, you know, I mean, was unbelievable. mean, was, I'm not gonna lie. I was impressed. Like I was like, wow.

That is an amazing spinning of facts. I mean, it is Hollywood worthy, right? But it was like this thing, and why? Because opposing counsel was just that person. That's what they did with everything.

Robert Poirier (24:54)
So you've represented people that you knew they were wrong and, or, but you still went ahead and represented them. And that's just the norm.

Erin Schaden (24:58)
Yes.

It depends on the level of wrong and what they were wrong about, right? ⁓

Robert Poirier (25:07)
Like when you

know, this here's, here's where my issue lies. And I'm still going to like you no matter what, is when an attorney knows that, Hey, this probably isn't the best. This probably isn't in the best interest of the children. And a lot of this stems from, was talking to a lady not too long ago. I might get her on the podcast. ⁓ she just has so much going on right now.

Erin Schaden (25:11)
Okay.

Robert Poirier (25:33)
Her children were taken away from her. it was one thing. mean, you know, whether it's one lie after another, whatever it may be, I haven't heard the full case. I've heard her side of it. And it seems like the attorney was, you would think that the attorney there's from everything she has shared with me, there's nothing on her side. Her, her ex had a better attorney. Her ex had.

significantly more money where he could, he could fight that he could get this person and they spun it and spun it and spun it. And she gets to see her children one night every other weekend. And I would think that's where I have an issue is I would think, and she's fighting it. I mean, she is as much as she can. And again, she doesn't have the means to do it. ⁓ and she's been fighting it for 14 months right now.

Erin Schaden (26:03)
More money. Yep.

Yeah, for sure.

Robert Poirier (26:30)
But,

⁓ and so that shows too, it's not always a guy thing. It's all, know, women see this just as, or see that, see this just like men do. Right. Right. But that's, that's where I have an issue with the attorneys. Like I would think that attorney knows like, this isn't right for the kids to see their mom once every two weeks.

Erin Schaden (26:35)
Well.

Everybody gets screwed in family court. It's an equal opportunity screwing moment.

But here's the thing, here's the thing.

But here's the thing, is like how does that attorney know that? So, you know, it's so funny.

Robert Poirier (26:59)
But you're going to

find that out through discovery through different things. You're going to find out that hey, she's a good. She's a good person like.

Erin Schaden (27:02)
But it's all perspective. But

see, thing is, that you don't, so I'll give you an example. I had this client that I was representing and

We'd almost settled their divorce case and then some stuff happened and they pulled it and they kind of reconciled or whatever. And then, ⁓ and she told me all about this guy, like, you know, he's a narcissist, he's a narcissist, he's a narcissist. And it's not that I didn't believe her. just, we'd made enough forward progress that it didn't really matter whether he was a narcissist or not, because we, we got custody, which was better because he had all kinds of mental health issues and, you know, just, there was a lot going on, right? But then we get

to the mediation, right? We kind of get through the period, things fall apart again, we're back to mediation, we're working things out. And he shows up at the mediation, okay? And we're all in the same room together. And he flirted with me, okay, as her lawyer, right? And the second he did that, I was like,

It's not that I ever doubted my client. I never doubted my client at all. Like I believed her the whole way through. But when he did that in the presence of his lawyer, who was also a woman by the way, and the mediator, who was also a woman, ⁓ it was like, I was like, ⁓

Yeah, I know what this is. And so I said something to her afterwards and I have so much respect for this client because what I said to her, she misinterpreted. And what I said is like, I did not expect him to look like that. And I didn't expect him to behave that way. And she thought that I was swayed by him.

Robert Poirier (28:46)
Okay.

Erin Schaden (28:47)
And thanked her profusely for calling me and giving me a chance to explain what I said. And most clients would have just been like, you're fired, I'm not gonna work with you anymore. But she said, I need to talk to you privately and I wanna talk about this. And we did. I was like, no, no, no, no. The second he did that, I was like, it just gave you absolute authority. I knew everything that you said was gospel at that point in time, because only a narcissist would do that, right? And so,

Robert Poirier (29:13)
Yeah, yeah.

Erin Schaden (29:15)
So I guess what I'm saying is that one of the things that people always say to me, like when I'm representing people, right? They're always like, well, did you tell his lawyer? Did you tell her lawyer? And I'm like, I just, it's one of those things where I just want to like, I don't know, pound my head into my desk or something because it's like, sure, if you want me to, I will waste.

$700 of your money to call the lawyer and say, that's not true because blah, blah, blah, right? And the other lawyer is going to be like, well, that's not what my client says. So as an attorney, have to, in order to keep the relationship going, there has to be a certain rapport, right? You can't be calling out your client a liar all the time, right? And have that client still...

keep you employed, right? So it's a fine line. The other thing is, is that we're not there as the attorneys. I'm not there when the facts are being created. I'm getting the second hand report or the third hand report of the facts. We went to the pickup and this is what happened, right? And then the other side, and then I'm getting the other thing. And I always kind of like cut everything kind of like a little bit in half. Like if my client's like, and then this happened, and I'm kind of like, unless there's a video tape, and even that sometimes is wrong. So I guess what I'm saying is, that I don't

I know, I believe that most family law attorneys are ethical. In my years of practice, I practiced with people that were very, very poor, public interest, legal aid kind of situations, and I've worked with a super, super uber wealthy, right? And it doesn't matter really, the quality of the caliber of the general populace of attorneys that are representing those people is good, right? There's good hearts, there's good ethics, everything else. I think what the problem is,

if I may like tie this off in a pretty little bow, is that the high conflict people pick out of the 20%. They're picking the attorneys out of the 20%. It is amazing to me, amazing to me. And this has been true for 30 years. If you have a person who is batshit crazy, they will go find the batshit crazy attorney every time.

Robert Poirier (31:05)
Yeah, that's probably true.

Erin Schaden (31:21)
Every time. There's always one. There's always one attorney in whatever place you're practicing that everyone's like, God, you know, not her, not him, whatever. They're just nuts, right? They're just nuts. But nobody's gotten them disbarred yet, so they're just nuts. And it's always those people. Or if they're kind of narcissistic, they will go find a similarly narcissistic attorney. It is amazing to me.

Right? So what ends up happening is you have a person that is narcissistic and personality disordered, high conflict, that's not gonna play by the rules. And now they've hired someone who's also not gonna play by the rules. And then who are you? You're ethical and you're gonna play by the rules and you just really want this to all go away and you wanna work it out for the best interests of your kids and move on with your life. You don't want conflict. So you go find an attorney that's going to try to give you that, that can also go up against the insanity that's over here.

But it's it's such a difficult thing, right? So it's just, I think the high conflict people pick out of the 20 % pool, not the 80 % pool.

Robert Poirier (32:20)
I'm

sure they do. I'm sure they do. My thing is just when an attorney knows that, you're asking for, I don't know what that would be. What's 80 % custody, 75 % custody. And it would probably benefit the kids for them to have more time with their mom and for the attorney to continue to argue for what their attorney, what their client wants instead of saying, look, I can't do this.

I personally don't think it's right for the kids. I'm not going to do it. That is, and that's where my, and maybe that's just me, Mr. Not that I'm Mr. Ethics. mean, I feel like I definitely am in my professional world and hopefully personal world, but, ⁓ that's, that's where I have, that's, that's where I have an issue. mean, it's kind of like the same way, same way I feel about some criminal defense attorneys. You know, you have this client that has butchered their

Erin Schaden (33:09)
I get it.

Robert Poirier (33:18)
you know, butchered the victim up and they have no remorse. There was no reason for them to do it. They did it. And then they're trying to, for whatever reason, I mean, it's, it's lock solid. You know, they're guilty, but then they're trying to get them off or at least get their sentence lessened. It's like, no, throw them in jail throw away the key. That's where I have it. That's where I have an issue.

Erin Schaden (33:40)
I get it. I

get it. And that's, think that, I think you stand on the side of public opinion on all of that. The thing is, is that...

Robert Poirier (33:48)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (33:50)
you my profession is grown up out of the idea that everybody's entitled to a defense and everybody's entitled to zealous representation. Not of what we believe the issues to be, not of what we believe is, but what the client believes. Like you are a mouthpiece for the client. You are an advocate for the client.

But not everybody operates that way. But I think, again, I'm gonna stick with my numbers, 80%.

80 % of the attorneys are good. I know. What do you think the percentage is then Robert? What are you thinking? How bad is my profession? Like tell me how bad are we?

Robert Poirier (34:19)
I'll dispute you on that. But okay, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

I don't

have a very high opinion. mean, look, I have met some really good ones. I have met some really good ones. I don't have a very high opinion of many attorneys. I know that's not going to make very many people happy out there. I can.

Erin Schaden (34:31)
You're thinking the percentage is 20 % bad and 80 %-

We have a bad reputation

for good reason. Come on. I mean, it's true. It's true. I'm not going to say, oh yeah, attorneys are so great all the time. But I do think that we're.

Robert Poirier (34:44)
Hahaha

I mean, I,

I even see it in my line of work too. Right. I mean, you've got real estate attorneys who, um, are total deal makers. You have other ones that just try to screw up a deal. I mean, I remember years ago, I was on this and we're totally getting off topic and I'll try to make this quick. Um, it was a very big deal and we had my client, CEO, CFO.

There are two attorneys on the phone. had the other party, their attorney on the phone. And it was just all the negotiating, all the business points have been worked out. This is literally just legal language and neither, none of the attorneys were willing to compromise. And when they did, then one more, one would have to add something else to it.

And so I started laughing and we were on a zoom call and I didn't, mean, I, I, I wasn't purposely laughing, but I was, and my client, ⁓ he's like, Robert, what are you laughing about? And I said, I'm sorry, but I just had this vision come in my head. And he said, well, do you care to share it with everybody? And I feel like a little kid now, you know, being called out in class. And I said,

Erin Schaden (35:59)
Hahaha

Right, get and call it out.

Robert Poirier (36:14)
Yeah. I feel like, I feel like I'm watching two dogs circling around a tree and each one wanting to be the last one to lift their leg. And they, the whole, everybody except for the attorney started laughing and both of them, both sides were then like, yeah, I totally agree with them. Let's get this done. And I mean, it was done literally within about 15 minutes there. We just started blowing through pages.

But I feel like a lot of times with attorneys and granted, I'm probably jaded in some ways, but with a lot of attorneys, it's, ⁓ I don't know. I just don't have a very high opinion of a lot of them.

Erin Schaden (36:54)
get it. Look, I mean, look, you...

Robert Poirier (36:56)
And it's the same

way with my profession, right? Some brokers are not really good. And so, you know, same thing with car salesman with a lot of them. Yeah.

Erin Schaden (37:03)
I mean, every profession has their black sheep,

right? Like every profession does. I think that, you know, especially for litigation.

there's a certain personality type that's drawn to be a litigator. And you've got to have a certain level of confidence, a certain amount of swagger, and a certain amount of ego, right? And if you don't have those things, you may want to be a litigator, but you're not going to exist very long because you're going to get eaten alive by all the other people that have got bigger egos and more swagger and more competence, right? Like the worst thing ever is like a fully jacked egomaniac who's incompetent, right? Like that's, you know, and, what will

Robert Poirier (37:29)
Yeah.

yeah.

Erin Schaden (37:42)
happen

Robert Poirier (37:42)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (37:43)
is they'll get their ass summarily handed to them enough times that they'll go do something else. They're like, well, I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm going to go do something else instead. Right. So I.

I hear you, right? And I'm not trying to say, all lawyers are really ethical or whatever. I'm just saying in my own personal experience that I think family law in particular, it's a hard job. I think you have to be a certain amount of crazy to do it. I think that you probably have to be completely insane to do it as long as I have, right? Like I think that ⁓ it wears on you, it grinds on you. At six years of practice, I quit. And my dad,

Robert Poirier (38:04)
can't imagine.

Erin Schaden (38:21)
He was like, you've worked so hard. You've worked so hard to build this practice. And I said, yeah. And my best legal advice, it comes down to every day what I'm saying is grow up and get sober. Like that was literally at six years of practice. That's what I did. And I quit and I walked away from it and I was like, I'm gonna go do something else. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna go do something else. And I got,

drug kicking and screaming back into family law and then I just kind of accepted it as my fate. Now I can't imagine doing anything different. Well actually now all I think about is retiring. If I'm really honest like there's no there's no other career thing for me like it's I've I've the die is cast and now I'm just this is where I am and what I fantasize about is traveling and just writing and that's it. That's all I want to do is travel and write travel and write. That's it. ⁓ But since I still have to pay a mortgage and I'm not in

hoist for retirement at this juncture anyway. ⁓ You know, it's, this is what I know, you know? And so, and I have a certain level. Huh?

Robert Poirier (39:19)
Yeah. I just, I can't, I can't imagine being in that profession. I can't,

I can't imagine being in that profession and the toll that it takes on you. just can't.

Erin Schaden (39:29)
Well, I think you have to, I mean, that's another skill set that I think the family law litigator has to have is you've got to have a thick skin. ⁓

I mean, I think the other thing that I would say, and I'm throwing myself under the bus here, I think you also have to have a significant past of trauma so that you're really good at compartmentalization. Like the trauma has caused you in your life to have to be like, okay, this is over here and this is over here and never shall the two, you know, and that's a skill that I think that people that do family law really have to because otherwise, and I know when I was much younger in my career, everything felt so heavy and so personal and like it was

Robert Poirier (39:48)
Good point.

Erin Schaden (40:05)
for death all the time and you know you have to develop a well I'm not gonna answer the phone on the weekend because I've not had a weekend for the past three weekends and now I gotta have a break otherwise I'm gonna burn out it's self-preservation I'm just gonna think about this over here and I'm gonna think about that over there you know so

Robert Poirier (40:25)
You know what? And I

want to put it in a quick disclaimer too. I am not saying that all family law attorneys or that all attorneys, no matter what your practice is, I am not saying that they're all worthless or that they're all bad or at the, at they're all unethical. I'm just saying in my opinion, I am disputing Erin's number of 80 20.

Erin Schaden (40:29)
Sure.

⁓

Robert Poirier (40:51)
That is, that is, that, that is, that is, I have met some wonderful

Erin Schaden (40:52)
I get that. I am sure in the comments.

Robert Poirier (40:57)
attorneys, some ⁓ overly qualified attorneys in, in that practice in all different sorts that are fabulous. So I'm not saying that all attorneys are bad.

Erin Schaden (41:09)
I will make you a wager, okay? I will make you a wager that when the comments rain down on this, I am not gonna be the favored party here. You are gonna reign supreme here, Robert, and I am gonna get vilified and told that I'm delusional, and what do I think? And of course I'm saying that, and I'm probably being paid by the American Bar Association to say nice things. And I swear, I'm not, just to put it out there, because crazy sins.

Robert Poirier (41:18)
you

American bar association or something like that. That's so true. That's so true. Nobody is getting

paid in this interview. No, nobody's getting paid. No, by anybody. Hey, so let you brought it up. The GALs, the guardian ad litem Let's talk about those. ⁓ I know a lot of times they will are people don't think they have a lot of influence in court. They, they actually

Erin Schaden (41:39)
Nobody's getting paid for anything here. By anybody. For any reason.

Okay.

Robert Poirier (41:59)
have a lot more influence with the judge than I think a lot of people think they do, don't they?

Erin Schaden (42:06)
Yeah,

well any of those neutrals, any of those neutrals have a lot. ⁓ So I mean, they have a lot of credibility. And here's one of the things that I think.

Robert Poirier (42:19)
a lot of influence.

Erin Schaden (42:20)
So much influence, right? And ⁓ I get it. I get why we've kind of delegated the decision-making factor to people that are not deciders and triers of fact. ⁓ We've kind of decided, my God, family systems, it's all psychology and everything else. And I'm gonna tell you as a litigator, I will not allow any psychological professional in my case, which is also gonna...

get me hate mail, but that's fine. If my client or their child need to go to a therapist over here, go. Please, absolutely. Am I going to send the client to a parenting coordinator? No, I'm not. Am I gonna send the person over to a parenting coach? Probably not. Am I gonna send, I mean, these things are ordered by the court all the time. And it is a disaster of the highest order because you have people who, this is a big soap box of mine.

So we've touched a nerve. So pardon me while I go off on it, you know, on my rant. ⁓ So here's the thing. We have a legal system. Okay. The legal system is founded on certain tenants and principles and rules that govern the rules of evidence, the rules of civil procedure. Okay. All of these things, right? And now what we've done is we've taken this broken family and we've laid them upon this framework.

Robert Poirier (43:20)
Let's hear it.

Erin Schaden (43:40)
And we've said, have to operate by these rules. You have to adhere to these deadlines. You have to work within this scheme, okay? And then, and that's how it was forever. That's how it was forever. And then, I don't know, 20 years ago, the court was like, and I get why the court felt this way. The court was completely legitimate,

I mean, pardon my French, I don't know what the fuck to do with these people. They're just broken and they're hurting each other and they're hurting their kids and it's a complete nightmare and I don't know what to do. And then somebody was like, you know what we should do. We should have some psychologists come in and we should have some social workers and we should have these people come in. But here's the thing, okay? What is good in litigation land is horrible in psychology land. And what is good in psychology land is usually horrible in litigation land. So you have two,

completely different and divergent systems trying to operate with some sort of congruence with each other and it does not work. It doesn't work. Now, I will also say I have seen it work, but not with a high conflict personality.

not with a high conflict personality, not with somebody who's glib and superficially charming, not with somebody who's not gonna play by the rules, not with somebody who's gonna write their own script, not from somebody that's going to get down and dirty. Like it's not gonna work that way, right? And you have these people that come in well-intentioned, okay? Probably not well-educated. You know, the other thing is, is that in psychology, if I'm out at a cocktail party and I meet a psychologist and they say, what do you do? And I say, divorce attorney, divorce coach.

Anyway, who are you? Right? They're gonna want to avoid me, right? They don't want to know us. They don't want to be involved with us. They know that when we're involved and we draw them into our case and put them up on the stand and rip them a new one, they don't like that. They don't like that. And so they're like, I don't want to be involved. I don't want to be involved. I don't want to know you. I don't want to be involved with you. And I get, I get why they feel that way. But I feel like what ends up happening

Robert Poirier (45:19)
Right.

Erin Schaden (45:43)
is you have somebody who's trained in psychology and the only legal training that they're getting is on the job. So I'm thinking about California here.

Ventura County where I live, ⁓ it's a recommending county. That means that if you have a custody matter, you are ordered to family court services, which is free, and you go in and you present your case, and then this person, a psychology, social work kind of person, meets with you for a little bit of time. And if your kid is of an age, I think it's like eight, then they'll talk to your kid, right? I can't remember what the threshold is. They'll talk to your kid for like a minute or two, and maybe they'll talk to a collateral, probably not though.

because it's like this little bit of time. And then that person makes a recommendation about custody to the court. And then the court usually rubber stamps it. And then that becomes your status quo. Because if you're going to have an evidentiary hearing, it's going to happen months and months down the way. So in some ways, if it goes in your favor, you pretty much won your custody case and it's truncated and you're good to go. But if you got ruled against because you're going up against a high conflict person or a person that's narcissistic or a person that's personality disordered

Robert Poirier (46:29)
Wow.

Erin Schaden (46:53)
and they were so impressive in their delivery of everything and swayed the person, then you are digging yourself out of a hole that you are never likely going to get out of, right? And so my fault with the GALs, in some cases the GALs are attorneys, okay? And in those places, I feel like they are best suited to do the job because they would have training in this guardian ad litem kind of world, but they would also be attorneys, so they would be versed in the rules of evidence and how

Robert Poirier (47:02)
that you're not gonna get out of. Gosh, that's something.

Erin Schaden (47:22)
how to practice law and all of that kind of stuff. I think that that's the best case scenario. Do they get it right every single time? Like in California?

Robert Poirier (47:28)
So you think

that you think the guardian items, the best cases for them to have a background in law for them to be attorneys. See, so that's where I differ. I, I that's fine with law, but I also think, and I was talking to Peter Salerno on this one. I'll go into that in a minute, but that's also where I differ, where I think there needs to be some sort of, you're not going to like this, but some sort of background in

Erin Schaden (47:34)
Absolutely.

Robert Poirier (47:57)
child development, child psychology, something like that to where, you know, I think here, honestly, Erin, think it's a, a virtual class where they take 14 hours and then they're, you're a guardian ad litem And then it's maybe three hours annually. And you know, of, continuing ed hours and you're a guardian ad litem. And you might not.

Erin Schaden (48:23)
Yeah, it's like that in Florida too.

Robert Poirier (48:27)
have any training in what is best, what is best for a child, you know, and you know, the different development stages or anything like that. That is, that's, that's where I think it would the look. mean, I think the court system, I I'm not knocking. I just think the family court system, there's so much that needs to be done. And I know they are over. I know they're overwhelmed. I know they're overwhelmed.

Erin Schaden (48:42)
I with you.

God, Amen.

Robert Poirier (48:55)
And I, and I understand the purpose of the guardian ad litem And there are probably a ton of great ones out there. I'm sure there are. ⁓ but I also think there needs to be more training in that. ⁓ I'll give you a perfect example. So I was talking to someone and they were telling me that, that with the guardian, that, that the parent that they had gone to the guardian.

About their concerns about the other parent and they expressed the other end. You know, I know the judge never wants to hear that the other sides of narcissists, but they had expressed that, we have concerns that the other parent might have a personality disorder. There's a long family history of it. They've exhibited this, this, and this, and we would like for you, you know, have you considered that? And that guardian said, no.

I've seen no grandiose behavior from this person. So I don't think there is one. So here's where the issue lies. They were basing that that other parent wasn't, didn't have narcissism just on the fact of their intellect, their education on narcissism was that this person has to express grandiose behavior.

wasn't even aware of, you know, this person could, you know, be a covert narcissist. You know, there's a lot of other different areas where how this person could be a narcissist. And despite the fact that that, that they showed, you know, a lot of evidence that would lead to this. And that's where, and I'll even jump into it. That's where Peter, where we were talking about it. And I can't remember if it was on the, you know, I've had

Peter Salerno, the two of you are literally, ⁓ my most popular guest. And I had him on just y'all are. mean, it's, amazing. And, and again, two of my, my two favorite guests, not, it's not to knock anybody else, but I love the conversations, but his whole thing is he said that, you know, it is his mission before he dies to somehow overhaul the family court system.

Erin Schaden (50:50)
Okay.

Robert Poirier (51:18)
So one of the things, one of the things that Peter says is that he, he just feels that the family court system is inadequately trained and equipped in recognizing and identifying personality disorders. And yet they make, um, you know, decisions, life altering decisions often to the detriment of children.

Erin Schaden (51:27)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. I agree with Peter.

Robert Poirier (51:45)
And you know, he said that's his mission is,

is, is to change that. And, and I think it's the same thing in some ways that's taken on that's with the, I am not knocking, not knocking every guardian ad litem. But when you look at this, there needs to be more training involved with the guardians.

Erin Schaden (52:05)
Absolutely.

Well, so I, you and I are on the same. No, no, no, no, no, no, it's a lack of it's I don't think it's a I don't think it's anything. ⁓

Robert Poirier (52:08)
And I'm not saying they're doing that on purpose. I just think it's lack of training.

Erin Schaden (52:16)
malicious in any way, or form. think it's just a lack of, I mean, here's the thing. Like when I tell people, like when I'm talking to people about coaching or whatever, I said like, you've basically landed on divorce planet, okay? There's a whole bunch of new set of rules that you don't know how to play. There's a vocabulary that you don't understand and it's a language that you don't speak. So you need a translator, right? And it's just like that for the people, the non-legal people that are working within the family court system, right? So here's the thing. I think that

One, if you're working in the family court system, you need to have an in-depth 40 plus hour training of family court dynamics. Number one. Number two, you need to have some developmental psychology training about family systems, developmental, know, milestones and stuff like that for kids. ⁓ And you also need to be well-trained in ⁓

Robert Poirier (52:55)
Sure, sure.

Erin Schaden (53:13)
in your neutral role, all right? Because ⁓ I have seen people like new attorneys just get, I mean, I remember when I was a new lawyer, I was appointed to limited decision about whether or not to assert this child's therapeutic privilege or to waive it, right? And of course I had one parent that wanted it to be waived and the other parent that did not want it to be waived, right? And I, you know, I talked to the child.

Child had an expectation of privacy when they went to that therapy appointment that what they said was gonna be kept private. Number two, the therapist definitely felt that the child would be adversely harmed if that privilege was waived, okay? At the same time, the mom who wanted to waive the privilege had some legitimate concerns about the child's health, safety, and wellbeing.

And my job was to talk to all the people. I talked to dad, I talked to mom, I talked to everybody. And then my job was to weigh it, right? And in that case, I decided to assert the child's privilege because I believed that the detriment that this child having an intact therapeutic relationship was more vital than what mom needed the court to know about dad, okay? That that child had ate an adult. Cause honestly,

I mean this was 30 years ago, but I mean, mom was kind of crazy and dad was crazy and this poor child was adrift in a sea of crazy with their two parents and I felt like this therapist who I felt like had a really was a ballast to this child, right? Like and me waving the privilege and decimating that therapeutic relationship was more detrimental to the child than asserting it. That mom showed up at my front door on a Sunday morning.

and got down on her knees and begged me to change my mind. She called me over and over and over again to get me to change my mind. it is not, it is not, people, like the people that are being guarded in lineups, they're not trained for that. They're not trained that some crazy woman's gonna show up at your house ⁓ Sunday morning and beg you to change your mind. Like, so I feel like...

The system is irretrievably broken. What I would like to see, here's my solution. I hate it when people are like, oh, the system's terrible, it's so broken, rah rah. Okay, here's a pilot program that I would love somebody to take on and if you'd like for me to be a part of it, I'd be more than happy to. I think that what we need to do is have a pilot program where it all comes in. Rules of evidence.

Robert Poirier (55:23)
It is.

Erin Schaden (55:43)
Screw them. We're not going to use them. You got text messages. You got photographs. You got videos. Bring it all in. Bring it all in. All right. Let the court hear everything. No more psychological professionals coming into court. The judge, right or wrong, good or bad, is going to make a decisive, definitive, immediate decision one way or the other.

And I'd like for that pilot program to go on for a couple of years to see what happens. I don't know. It could be way worse. It could be way worse. But one of the things, I was almost a domestic violence commissioner in New Mexico back in the day. And one of the things that I said is like, I wish that you guys would hire me of this position. I am the decider. I want to be the decider. It's a 15 minute docket. Dad comes in and says, blah, blah. Mom comes in and says, blah, blah, blah. I have five minutes to make a ruling.

Because one of the things that I think lack isn't that we're not getting it that we're getting it wrong. It's the delay It's the great delay in in the timing of everything and what I think kids more importantly and adults But kids they just need certainty Am I going with dad to Vancouver for vacation next week or am I not?

Robert Poirier (56:44)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (56:59)
Like, let me know. I just, I can deal with it either way, but just give me the skills, like tell me what I'm doing, right? So I think that I would love to see a pilot program that gets everybody out. The judges take back their judicial authority. They hear all the crap. I mean, you're gonna have to limit it because I mean, there's volumes and volumes, but like, okay, you get a three hour hearing. Mom gets an hour and a half. Dad gets an hour and a half. You get whatever you can present in your hour and a half. Boom.

and then the court listens to all the evidence, the court asks the questions that it needs to have asked, and then the court makes a decision. I think, my experience, 30-year background doing this, I think we're gonna end up with better results, more definitive results than the way that we're currently doing it.

Robert Poirier (57:41)
Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. You know, and when you're saying that to us, started thinking about if we put those fines in place and the court actually had teeth, had more teeth, I think, I think their calendar would open up a little bit more to also

Erin Schaden (57:57)
absolutely, absolutely. And the people would spend less money. And I think honestly, that's kind of what, to some degree, that pilot program.

is kind of what mediation does, right? You have this neutral person who's, mean, and maybe that's another thing that we could do instead of doing mediation where you have to agree and I have to agree. Maybe we start hiring arbiters, right? And you agree to go into binding arbitration for your divorce and you go in and you put, and in California, I know they have private judging, right? Like you can hire a judge, a family law judge.

Robert Poirier (58:24)
Yeah, yeah.

Erin Schaden (58:33)
you know, to private judge your case and you get all the stuff and the rules of evidence apply still. I mean, there's all these kind of like different little rules and stuff and I don't, won't claim to know them all. ⁓ But I think that it's one of those things where I think that we could do some things. So I throw that out there too. Pilot program or let's bring in binding arbitration into family court. The problem, the problem is, is that parenting is a fundamental right. And so it really,

⁓ being able to sign away your rights when you're not in the presence of a judicial officer, trier of fact, it, you know, you know, because I mean, this is, I can see the situation already. You go into binding arbitration, but you know, mom is represented by the shark attorney and dad's just on his own. You go into binding arbitration, dad loses.

Right? Maybe dad was gonna lose, like no matter what, it doesn't matter who you put him in front of, maybe dad's facts were just bad and know, dad's an alcoholic and was driving drunk with the kids. I mean, who knows, right? Like, but there's a perception of unfairness that occurred, right? Cause mom has a lawyer, dad had nobody, therefore the result has to be unjust. Not necessarily so. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes the facts are just the facts are just the facts. So I don't know. I think that.

Robert Poirier (59:42)
Yeah.

Because it does,

it does seem like in the court system, mean, you know, there's that whole thing and you see it on the internet every so often about family court that the person that has the most money and who can lie the best or lie the most wins. And it's sad. It does seem that way. ⁓ obviously it's posted out there enough that obviously there's a lot of people that feel that way. I mean, that that's of course, believe in everything you read.

Erin Schaden (1:00:10)
Well that's our whole society!

Mm-hmm. Well, but okay, but

I will say though, just in defense of the system that I've dedicated my life to working within, that the court system mirrors society at large. Who wins in big business? Okay. Who wins in insurance? Who wins, like, it's our society. Exactly. And if we don't like that, then we have to reform our society, our culture.

Robert Poirier (1:00:29)
Yeah, true, true, true. Same with politics, right? Yeah. Who wins in elections? It's who spends the most. I mean, for the most part, it's the same thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I just think, I mean, again, I mean, there's so many, you know, I hate to knock family court system, but there's so many ways it needs to be approved, improved. And when you look at the guardians or the custody evaluators and the lack of, I'm not blaming them, but the lack of training that's required, whether it's through, you know, identification of identifying

Erin Schaden (1:00:45)
And that's not gonna happen.

Robert Poirier (1:01:11)
potential personality disorders or what is truly a parent alienation. It's not just withholding. It can be from, you know, not allowing the kids to speak on the phone with their parent, whatever it may be. You know, I just think there's such a lack of that, that they're, they're forced to submit their opinion to the court from what they see, but they also don't have the deep knowledge. I just think they're

Erin Schaden (1:01:32)
Well, I mean, and in some courts...

Robert Poirier (1:01:40)
There needs to be more training right now.

Erin Schaden (1:01:42)
I agree.

I absolutely agree that there needs to be more training, ⁓ but I also know that there's no time and there's no money. And so we're just limping along with a system that is irretrievably broken and is causing more damage to families and everything else. However, I will say, I started working with a woman ⁓ early last year and she was a hot mess.

Robert Poirier (1:01:53)
But that's the thing, there's no money.

Erin Schaden (1:02:12)
I mean, domestic violence situation for sure. ⁓

Although it wasn't like, I wouldn't say, I would say it was more of a situational violence situation. Definitely more emotional abuse going on than physical abuse. ⁓ Definitely the child was being abused emotionally. ⁓ And this woman and I worked together and she was able to, with her counsel and me, absolutely completely alter her life.

completely changed her life within that broken system. So I think it's about, to the people that are out there, I think that it's important that you utilize the tools that are available to you to leverage your position within the broken system better, right?

Talk to somebody, you people go in and they're like, you know, my aunt said use this attorney. And then if you talk to people, they're like, yeah, I didn't even like them. I didn't even feel like I related to them. I didn't feel like they listened to me at all, but I just hired them because my aunt said it was okay. You know, don't do that, right? Talk to somebody that can help you get to the right attorney. There's good attorneys out there. Absolutely. 80 % of them, you're gonna hit them more than you're not, in my opinion. Robert, of course, disagrees with me. But, ⁓ and you know, and that's one of the things that I do.

I help get people. I can look at a person, I can look at their personality, I can have a five minute conversation with them and I can be like, not that attorney, not that attorney, and get to the place. And then also, one of the things that I've been pushing out a lot on my social media lately is this idea of like...

⁓ There's a great stillness, there's momentum and stillness that you need to spend. we're in divorce month, January's divorce month, right? Everybody's filing for divorce or whatever. And I'm not a big advocate for filing in January. I'm an advocate of getting your ducks in a row in January, right? Like, let's be still. I was talking to a client the other day and she's like, I'm so, I feel like I should be further along. And I said, you are. We are making forward progress. You hired me. We are deciding whether or not now is a good time to go forward. We've now decided.

now is a good time to go forward. are planning, we are setting the stage and so much, it's like you wouldn't go out ⁓ to go camping and not prepare. You would pack, you would.

Robert Poirier (1:04:31)
Yeah. It's just an,

think in their eyes, it's like, I have made it through the holidays and you know, I've made it that I just told myself, just hang on through the holidays, but I'm still married. So that's probably, that's probably where they're coming from.

Erin Schaden (1:04:36)
I know. But there's so much that you...

I know, and one of the things

that I said is once you make the decision to leave, it's really hard to stay. And I absolutely 100 % believe that. However, everybody kind of thinks that the journey begins with the first step, but there's a lot that happens here.

Robert Poirier (1:05:01)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (1:05:01)
And your mindset is super important before you take that first step. Are we taking a first step towards litigation? Are we taking a step towards mediation? Are we taking a first step to a conversation? What are we stepping towards? And I think that people just willy-nilly they go and they call the lawyer and the lawyer's like, okay, let's file. Okay, you know, that's what we do. File away. And I've seen so many cases go completely sideways because there wasn't that planning that occurs. And everyone, I know, ⁓ you're just trying to screw the other side. No, I'm not.

It's about being thoughtful about you're embarking on a journey. Let's make sure you're prepared. Do you have the right tools that you're going to need? Do you have the right skill sets? you is there are there things you need to amass? Do you need some funding? You know, how are you going to get that funding? How long is that funding going to last you? ⁓ Do you have emotional resources, right?

What is this thing is you know? Are you filing in the month that your job is going to send you on a week-long trade show? That you're going to be completely consumed is this the time that your kids you know? ⁓ You know savant piano recitals going to happen and everybody in the world is going to be looking at you know like there are so many things that go into making the decision right and I'm not saying There's never a right time, but there are definitely wrong times to file and move it forward

Robert Poirier (1:06:18)
Good point. So

if you can hang on for just another few minutes, I feel like, you know, I don't want to beat up on family court because look, looking back, as you were talking, I was thinking, gosh, it's come a long way in 30 years as well, though. I mean, it truly has. And it's just, I mean, it's slow to make these changes and you, and you see it and you see more states that are even

Erin Schaden (1:06:40)
It's monolithic.

Robert Poirier (1:06:44)
50 50. And that's what I was alluding to earlier. I think it's like 18 or 20 States. But do you think there's still somewhat of a bias in judges towards the moms?

Erin Schaden (1:06:47)
haha

I think that there absolutely are judges that are biased towards women and there are judges that are biased towards men. And if you operate within the system, you will know who those people are and you will steer. I just was talking to somebody else the other day and I was like, ⁓ you need to go get this therapist to get involved because she's very pro-dad.

Robert Poirier (1:07:02)
Very true.

Erin Schaden (1:07:16)
get her because she's pro-dad, right? You're on the dad side, get her because she's pro-dad. It's the same thing with judges. But I think as a general rule across the board, you take a hundred judges, all right? I think that they, I think generally, unless you're in a very rural area that's very much still 1950s America, I think that you're gonna get a judge that's gonna be like,

dads can walk the floor with a sick kid, dads can take off work to take them to a doctor's appointment. I think you're getting a much more balanced view. I think that once you break down those individual hundred, you may find 30 of them are like, yeah, moms, I lean that way. You might find another 30 that are like, I'm leaning towards dads, whatever.

Robert Poirier (1:07:58)
Do you

think it's an excuse that dads use when they don't get more time?

Erin Schaden (1:08:02)
I don't think it's an excuse. I don't think it's an excuse. I think it's an explanation. And I think that's a fundamental difference. I think when we dismiss dads as using it as an excuse, I think we undercut their value of the argument that they're making is that they don't feel heard, they don't feel seen. how shitty is it to be 50 % of the creation of this kid, right? I mean,

Robert Poirier (1:08:05)
our way just not maybe not an excuse, but yeah. Yeah, good point.

Yeah.

Erin Schaden (1:08:29)
We have not figured out how to do it all by ourselves. So you guys are still absolutely required in procreation in 2026, okay? So how horrible as a human being, gender aside, to be told that you are not considered equal.

Robert Poirier (1:08:46)
Yeah,

yeah.

Erin Schaden (1:08:47)
Okay,

you are just as responsible for that child being on this planet as we are, right? ⁓ Effort, a little bit different, right? Okay, but that's not what we're making custody decisions on. We're not making custody decisions upon effort that I had to carry the baby for nine months and then I had to go through childbirth. That's not what we're making custody decisions on, right? We're making custody decisions on who is a fit and proper parent today. That's what we should be judging it by. So I think, you know, I think this is super important.

Do some men use it as an excuse? Absolutely. But I think if we dismiss it all as an excuse, we're doing men a horrible disservice because I think what men are really saying is, that, explain to me how this isn't this. I don't know how, this is how it feels to me. I feel like I am not getting a fair shake. And when you have half the population in custody court saying, don't feel like I'm getting a fair shake, then the system...

including the mothers in the system, right, ⁓ are going, then this system isn't working. And if it's not working for 50 % of it, it's not working for the rest of us either, right? So I don't want it to ever be dismissed as like, they're just using it as an excuse. No, men are saying that because that has been their experience. Now, some men,

Robert Poirier (1:09:55)
point.

Erin Schaden (1:10:05)
Could have gotten the most fair shake ever, but they're delusional and that's why they feel that way. But I don't think that that's most men. I think most men are showing up and being like, I love my kids. I want to spend time with my kids. It didn't work out with their mom. Fine. I want.

Robert Poirier (1:10:09)
Right, right.

Erin Schaden (1:10:21)
to spend time with my children. I want to have a meaningful, in-depth, day-to-day relationship with my kids. And why can't I? I'm not a drunk, I'm not abusive, I'm not a horrible guy, I pay my support or I receive the support. Like, I am a good person. I'm just trying to get by. And so when you go up against that and you fail and you're like, nope, you get every other weekend, sorry. Like, it has that, I mean, that's a particular kind of sting that I just...

how hard it is.

Robert Poirier (1:10:51)
And that's the that's

the answer there are that's what the there won't they answer for is why am I not getting that? And that's justified.

Erin Schaden (1:10:58)
Right.

Nobody wants to feel marginalized, not women, not men, not anybody, right? We all want to feel like we are a valued human being parent.

Robert Poirier (1:11:09)
So that's a great point. And you're right with the dads. I mean, we have stepped up dads have, and I think you're, you're seeing even more of that. ⁓ think a lot of it goes back to society here. And I think a lot of dads realize that they don't want their kid being an only fans person. They don't want their kid, selling meth.

Erin Schaden (1:11:14)
Yeah

Robert Poirier (1:11:32)
you know, doing math and they know that a lot of times these people that are committing crimes that are maybe on only fans or whatever it may be, hate to knock only are not the hate on knock only fans, but there's not a dad involved a lot of times. And so they, they want to have more of a presence in their life. And then when they can't have that, then they become desperate or they worry tremendously about their position with it, with their kids and

I don't know. I'm proud of dads. ⁓ you know, and you feel for the dads when that is determined that, you're not get, you're not getting as much time as you want. And it, but it does go back to quality. It all goes back to quality.

Erin Schaden (1:12:08)
Well, here's the thing that I will-

It

does, it does go back to quality. And dads, what I would say to you is if you want a fair shake, first of all, you're gonna have to stretch it out over a longer period of time. You may not get a fair shake right off the bat, depending on where you are located in our country. However, what you do next is the most important thing, right? If you want to be an influential person in your kid's life, show up. Take the time that's given, make it meaningful, make it count, be present, be available. Take your anger and your other stuff

Robert Poirier (1:12:32)
show up.

Erin Schaden (1:12:41)
over here and check it, take that to a therapist, get it, heal yourself, right? And show up, be a present parent for your kid, okay? I can't guarantee you it's gonna work out for you 100 % of the time, all right? But I will promise you that you will develop a close relationship with that child, right? And you will become, kids need one person, doesn't have to be a parent, one person that loves them unconditionally. Kids that don't have that, they're the people that are filling our prisons, right? They grew up and they had no one that was there for them.

Kids need one. Dads, you be that person. Show up and be that one person that's going to give the unconditional love to the kid. Love your kid more than you hate your ex. And that goes both ways, women and men.

Robert Poirier (1:13:23)
Duh. You couldn't have said about it. That's where we need to end. Anything else? What have we missed? Anything? I was going to ask you for advice. That is the advice right there. Erin, tell me what you have going on. I know you have coaching. I saw something that I think you have something that you're sending to people. Is there like a

Erin Schaden (1:13:27)
No, I think that was good.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's a lot of stuff. Check my socials, Erin Shaden ⁓ or Divorce Coach Erin on Instagram, Erin Shaden Coaching Mediation, my website ErinShaden.com. There's a whole bunch of stuff going on there. I'm offering a new program because one of the things that my clients have said feedback is like what I value most after the kind of initial, you know, kind of meet and, you know, kind of working with each other is the kind of ongoing text.

Support not tech support but tech support and so like we're starting a new program. It's $99 a month You get kind of unlimited within reason of course Text support. Hey, I just dropped off the kid. She did this What should I do? Right that kind of stuff?

So that's like gonna be a new program. We've got some other more intensive programs. It's all gonna be on my website. You can check it out. ⁓ We've got the free divorce survival guide, which if you just message on my social media and type guide or ⁓ divorce and we'll send it to you for free. ⁓ Let's see, what else? I'm gonna be starting a podcast in March. It's called, I Don't. ⁓ So for, know, we all say I do, but actually.

Sometimes we don't. And so the podcast is going to be coming in March. So that's going to be fun.

Robert Poirier (1:14:56)
That is wonderful.

Erin Schaden (1:14:58)
Yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's been a long time in the making. ⁓ Also have a blog that's gonna be published on Substack. I just did my first post that'll be going out this week ⁓ about divorce month and again, kind of like how much I believe stillness before, I mean, I believe it's a recovery related thing, but awareness, acceptance, action. I think that there's two steps before you take the action. You need to be aware of the issue. You need to accept not only the,

issue,

but the ramifications of what the action you're about to take is going to do before you take the action. And so it's all about kind of stillness and the kind of inherent movement and momentum that happens before you take the first step. anyway, so yeah, all that's going on. And then of course, coaching and mediation and all that stuff that I've been doing the whole time. Yeah, it's exciting. I'm excited.

Robert Poirier (1:15:32)
That's it. Yeah.

Very full plate, very full plate.

That is wonderful. And Erin, I will put links to everything so ⁓ everybody can find you and look, thank you again for coming on. I love having you on. really do love.

Erin Schaden (1:15:59)
Yeah, thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.

know, there are a lot of dad-focused things out there on the internet. And what I love and why I come on your particular show is because it's not the He-Man Women Haters Club, right? It's not. It's about how it is a platform to discuss men's issues.

Robert Poirier (1:16:15)
No, no, no.

Erin Schaden (1:16:23)
dad's issues that they face. It's not anti-woman, it's not anti-mom, it's about how do I, as a man, get a fair shake and a fair deal with my kids and what are some of the perils and pitfalls that I can expect? And I love that because I think it's so needed

Robert Poirier (1:16:40)
you know, what's interesting with this? My demographics it's 50 50. That's what's great. That that is what's crazy is, you know, it started out, it was 90 % men. Uh, you've helped Peter's help different ones have helped, but it's really, I am, I am still focused on dads, but it's really a parenting podcast.

Erin Schaden (1:16:44)
I know, me too. Actually, I have more men than women.

Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Poirier (1:17:03)
Or the issues that

parents face, whether it's with, you know, kid that has autism or, know, anxiety disorder in teens, you know, what both of them face. So that's been pleasant to see. And it's definitely not an anti mom podcast. but yeah, let's hear it.

Erin Schaden (1:17:18)
No, and I remember now what I was gonna say.

Generally speaking, know, men communicate to exchange information, right? And women communicate to build community. Different purposes in our communication, right? So one of the things that I see with men is men tend to be very isolated, right? They're not gonna go to their golf buddies or their hunting buddies or their pickleball buddies or whomever that they're hanging out with or the guys down at the bar or whatever.

Robert Poirier (1:17:31)
True. Yeah.

Erin Schaden (1:17:46)
and be like, you know, man, my marriage is going, is on the rocks and everything is going sideways and I'm terrified I'm never going to see my kids again. So I think podcasts like yours are so helpful that, that men can access it and receive the help in a very kind of non-confrontational kind of way and get access to resources because you know, it's, I've been on your podcast before and men have reached out to me afterwards. Like I saw you on Dad to Dads and hey, you know, and it's like, and they would have never reached out to me otherwise. They never would have reached out, right?

Robert Poirier (1:18:15)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (1:18:16)
And I think that women do a better job because of the different ways that we communicate kind of saying like, hey, know, Susan, you know, my marriage is just terrible and I don't know what to do about it. And we talk about our hairdressers about it. We talk to the nail lady about it. We talk to the dry cleaner about it. We'll talk to anybody about it, right? Like most people know when a woman is unhappy in her marriage, just ask her inner circle, right? And with men, men tend to kind of suffer in silence and maybe they got a best friend or, you know, a coworker that they, know, they're somebody, but generally

Robert Poirier (1:18:36)
yeah, yeah.

Erin Schaden (1:18:46)
speaking, I think it's much harder for men to reach out and say like, I'm scared. I'm failing. I'm terrified. I don't know what I'm doing, right? We expect men in our society to be uber confident all the time. And when you find yourself in divorce land, ⁓ it is a wasteland. And men, think have a particularly steep onboarding to that process. So I think that it's so important to have a place where guys can come and get balanced.

Sage wisdom.

Robert Poirier (1:19:16)
Great. You know what? And, I've had a guy on here before and he was giving me the numbers. ⁓ and it's gotten worse for men since COVID just in the fact we, you guys have done a phenomenal job. Still have your wine clubs and book clubs and everything else where guys kind of got away from the guys night of getting together to watch a game or getting, you know, once, COVID happened and everybody kind of stayed in their house, you don't see as many guys today getting together for poker night.

getting together for, you those things. You just don't see that as much. And we need that. We need, men need that community. And we, we, we miss that. And women have done a phenomenal job of picking it back up.

Erin Schaden (1:19:51)
Yeah, everybody needs it.

Everybody needs everybody needs time to be

Erin.

Everybody needs time to be Robert. Everybody needs time to be the person that we were before we became a spouse, before we became a parent. I will tell you though, I was up in Northern California with a friend of mine recently and we were in Target and I swear to God, it was dad day at Target. There were so many very attractive young men with their children at Target. It was like some sort of club. I saw no women at Target with their children.

Robert Poirier (1:20:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

Did you stay extra long?

Erin Schaden (1:20:27)
And I was at Starbucks

and I was with my girlfriend and she's a therapist. And we were sitting there and we could overhear the guys talking. He's like, yeah, she just told me that she's doing this and I'm taking the kid and I have to go to Target. It was so funny. And by the time we left, there was like three or four of them kind of gathered around talking about, anyway, it was just really funny. So I've seen the real world example that you said. They were at Target with their children.

Robert Poirier (1:20:54)
That's

great. Well, those dads probably came off a lot cheaper than going than the, than their wives going. So there you go. If there's, if they're smart, they'll take that duty. So Erin, look, Hey, thank you again for coming on. And I, I appreciate your time and sharing your wisdom as well. Okay. Hey, and thank you all for listening to the dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on

Erin Schaden (1:21:00)
probably. Well, there's another motivation there too. know, like, don't send me to Target. I'm coming home with all new towels.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Of course, always, anytime.

Robert Poirier (1:21:20)
Spotify or Apple and basically most formats. You can also find us on YouTube and Instagram. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button. and feel free to leave a comment. I read every single comment and I actually love reading those and getting this show suggestions as well. Thank you all again.