Soft Eyes, Strong Spine: The Secret to Balancing Love and Boundaries: Eric Brockman

How do you balance being the "fun" weekend dad with being the parent who instills lasting values?

In this episode of the Dad to Dads Podcast, Robert sits down with Eric Brockman, author of Soft Eyes, Strong Spine. Eric shares his "Eric 2.0" journey—moving from a rigid, hyper-vigilant parenting style to one defined by "presence without urgency."

Whether you are navigating shared custody, dealing with the "texting trap," or struggling with the constant "self-auditing" that comes with divorced parenting, this episode offers a new operating system for fatherhood.

In this interview, we discuss:

• The Soft Eyes, Strong Spine Framework: How to be a safe space for your kids while maintaining firm boundaries.
• The "Texting Trap": Why dads leak energy through digital communication and how to stop overthinking the "send" button.
• Presence vs. Agenda: Learning to let your kids "just breathe" when they arrive at your home.
• The Side-by-Side Connection: Why men and boys connect differently and how to use that to your advantage.
• Overcoming the "Disneyland Dad" Phase: Moving past the fear of losing your relationship with your children after divorce.

About Eric Brockman: Eric is a father of four and the author of Soft Eyes, Strong Spine. After 35 years in aerospace sales and navigating two divorces, he now helps men deconstruct the "fakery zone" and build more authentic, emotionally available relationships with their children.

Links & Resources:

• Website: https://www.softeyesstrongspine.com/
• Instagram: @softeyesstrongspine

The Dad to Dads Podcast is focused on helping fathers become more present, intentional, and impactful in their children’s lives.

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Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Eric Brockman. Welcome to the Dad to Dad's podcast.

Eric Brockman (00:03)
Thank you, Robert. It's a real pleasure to be on. Thrilled to get a chance to talk about really some difficult topics and some things that I think a lot of dads and lot of parents in general are looking to talk about. So I really appreciate the work you're doing, Robert, and appreciate the chance to come on your podcast. So thanks.

Robert Poirier (00:23)
Well,

I really appreciate you coming on. You know, you're the author of a new book, soft eyes, strong spine, a guide to life and kids from a divorced dad and you know, being a divorced dad, sharing custody, I know there's this

parenting is challenging in general, but sharing custody and, you know, having your kids a percentage of the time. just to speak personally for myself, you know, I have found myself at times kind of wondering who, who is this person parenting? Like who am I? Cause I don't see myself as the, ⁓ who I envisioned the person being parenting, you know, I'm kind of totally, you know, not constantly, but

there's times I'm definitely, I don't feel like I'm myself doing it. You know, when we talked the other day, you know, I think there was a lot of commonality there. And I think it's extremely common with you know, you have extremes there, you can be really rigid, you can be what's deemed as the Disneyland dad or Disneyland parent. And, you know, there's, there's times that I have found should I

You know, I just have them for this weekend or for this night. Should I just let this go, even though I normally wouldn't or do you need to be really strict? So there's these challenges. And when I found out about you, your book, like, okay, I myself want to talk to him. And maybe there's other dads out there, other parents out there in general that can benefit from this. So I definitely, again, I appreciate you coming on.

Eric Brockman (02:03)
Yeah, well, thanks for the lead in. And I guess just so we can reframe it from our conversation and so that your listeners know, I come at this from the viewpoint through divorce, from the viewpoint of a father, father of four and someone that in the book and as a 57 year old, twice divorced dad, four kids.

one daughter that's nine years estranged as a result of the divorce. ⁓ You know, I started to look at the things I've done as we talked about, what you try to do as a parent, the...

famous unintended consequences line. We all do it, all us dads, we do it with great intention, right? We have love and when we give a stack cue card of advice, it's with good intention, right? But the result sometimes doesn't match what the results were that you wanted, right? And ⁓ that's where things change a little bit. And that's where... ⁓

in my own personal life, started to see really through kind of looking in the mirror and you know the mirror doesn't lie sometimes and never lies and sometimes it's very mean and I realized kind of like what you had mentioned there is yeah there was times when it's just it was soft and I this needed to be maybe a little stronger there was times of being very rigid and very tense and very orderly to hit all the

do all the homework and hit all the chores and do all the things you're supposed to do and that in between there, there was just a lack of connection and your kids feel that and they become sort of confused in all of it. And what happens is, like I said, your unintended consequences, your intentions were great. Your intentions were to bond as strongly as you could with your child.

try to teach them things that you think are right. But in trying to do that, you sort of became so hyper-vigilant, or I did, so hyper-vigilant, so over-correcting, that there wound up being no connection. And so the things that you were trying to build upon didn't really take shape. And that's I started to really realize, and that's what the book, Eyes,

Strong's spine is all about is my introspective journey, and we can talk about this certainly as we get into it, as I realized that a lot of what I had done for the last 23 years as a parent was well intended, but it was not quite delivering the result that it should.

Robert Poirier (04:58)
Yeah, it's tough. ⁓ you know, when you look at it, your time is limited. ⁓ you know, most dads time divorced dads, their time's limited with their kids. They don't see them every day. You know, some might maybe just see them every other weekend. Some, some it's more, some it's less, but you're not constantly with them. And so that time that you have, you want to, at least for me, you want to make it special.

Eric Brockman (05:00)
Hmm.

Sure.

Robert Poirier (05:24)
And I have been, I mean, I've been guilty of doing too much. Uh, I've probably been guilty of, know, maybe coming down a little too hard at times. Um, I probably, but what I've tried to do is to be, can remain consistent, um, try to find that balance and remain consistent throughout, which is extremely challenging, which I'm glad you wrote a book on that and going through it. I want to.

Eric Brockman (05:24)
Right.

Robert Poirier (05:53)
go through or learn more about soft eyes, strong spine. ⁓ How did you come up with that? The title.

Eric Brockman (06:02)
So to take a step back, as I said, ⁓ 57 years old, twice divorced, I was like I think a lot of men in the middle or later middle part of life. I was kind of going through the motions, Robert, ⁓ for lack of a better word, know, ⁓ kind of playing out the string.

I was definitely on the back nine of life and it wasn't that I was moping through it or depressed. I was just a man that had a pretty full life. I traveled extensively for work, 35 years in sales, aerospace sales. I've seen a lot of the world.

seen a lot of country. I've had four beautiful children. My children are amazing. My one daughter, unfortunately we haven't talked or seen in years, she's unbelievable. She's truly amazing. So a lot of blessings, a lot of great people I've met, but you kind of get to a point, right, in your life.

I was sort of, like I said, sort just playing out the string and was comfortable with it. I was just doing what I was doing. And there was this layering of

events that all sort of compressed at once.

And I had a triangulation event with my family, taking care of my mom who was going through surgery in Florida. And at the same moment, that was when my uncle passed. And it was at that time, I was sitting in his funeral and really just reflecting. And it sounds kind of basic, but just thinking about, goodness gracious, 57, if ⁓ all goes well, I got maybe 15, 20 years left.

maybe better darn make the most of it. And I started really to, like I said, this sort of journey of thinking about who I am and who I've been. And I started to really be very honest with myself, like more honest than I've ever, ever been. And I had an amazing woman, very platonic, that sort of helped me walk through some of this. But out of it came soft eyes, strong spine.

So as I was sort of going through one of the tougher days of this kind of all happening at once, I just Googled Soft Eyes, nothing fancy, and started going down a rabbit hole of...

different things, different pictures. And it was like at that moment, Robert, I just sort of was, it wasn't like an epiphany, it was just, I just sort of looked up and I said, man, soft eyes are fine. What I need is some strong spine.

to me, the phrase held so much tension and ambiguity, and it held everything that a lot of us struggle with. Like you had just said, when I'm a dad, do I need to be the Disneyland dad and just try to absorb every single second?

that we have together, right? Or do I need to really be strict and establish some boundaries because goodness gracious, I only see him or her two times a week and I need to make sure that they're growing up the way I think is proper, right? I mean, that's what a lot of times a dad's supposed to do. Maybe not be the best friend, right? But be kind of the guy that tells you how it is. And ⁓ so we...

Robert Poirier (09:26)
All

Eric Brockman (09:38)
tend to fluctuate. Like you said, it's a natural human tendency. We all do it.

What I started to find, and that's what, and that phrase, and then when I started Googling it and started thinking about it, right, is it's the tension that's fascinating. It's the fact that could you be both at the same time?

And I walked out, I was on the back porch, it was really hot and humid and far out, and I walked out and I just said to myself, soft eyes, strong spine.

I am going to carry that. And I carried it through the rest of the week and I wound up carrying it all the way to writing a book and I live my life this way now. And that's why I finished the book and that's why I published the book because I believe so strongly and

I really started living this way to have your emotional regulation, have this sort of operating system that not tricks to remember and cues to go off of, but just a baseline operating system that you can live with. you'll be surprised how much improved in a lot of areas.

in the book I talk about old me, old Eric, Eric 1.0.

And really the book is about the transition from Eric 2.0, how I've, through this journey, through, to put it bluntly, the errors I've made in my life, I've learned and I've grown and this is this 2.0. And the thing that really is the most important aspect of it, that if you can take one piece of it, is I didn't change.

I'm not asking any of the people who read the book to change. What I did, and what I'm asking folks to think about doing, is have a different viewpoint, a different perspective on your life.

I put a new lens on and this new lens is this 2.0 lens. The new lens is operating in this manner with, I want to say, presence without urgency.

That's the soft eyes. It's being there without having an agenda. And it's the, it's, yeah, sure.

Robert Poirier (12:01)
Yeah. And, that's tough though. You say to be present

without having it without having an agenda. That can be tough too, because I know with me, you have, and I think with most dads, you have a limited amount of time and there's things that you want to instill in them. And at least the way I am, I know there's, Hey, by this age, I want to instill this in them. I want to instill that like I right now I even

Eric Brockman (12:07)
Yeah.

Yep.

Robert Poirier (12:27)
With summer approaching, I think of different things that I want to instill in the boys over the summer. I've, and I've done that different ones. So there is somewhat of a timeline, somewhat of agenda, but I guess it's going back as to how you approach that. Is that correct?

Eric Brockman (12:34)
Mm-hmm.

100%. it's how you approach it and it's the consistency.

I think that as long as the consistency takes place, the kids get confused by when you start going and vacillating between being soft and being hard.

Robert Poirier (12:59)
Yeah.

Eric Brockman (13:00)
And that's what I think creates the confusion in the connection.

Robert Poirier (13:08)
Yeah, I agree. What were some of the, give me like some examples for you when, you know, with co-parenting, where maybe...

Eric Brockman (13:09)
Yeah.

Robert Poirier (13:19)
if you had read your book, you would have done differently. Do you mind sharing some? If you had that knowledge now, then what you have now.

Eric Brockman (13:24)
I'm happy, no, I mean, can share some, know,

yeah. I think the biggest thing with me that I would do differently, and this is easy without getting into real details of, you know, which kid or whatever, but is texting. Texting is how us divorced dads live with the kids. And what I would do is get every text

and treat it as really as the breakthrough of the day. I have four kids. think if you have one, it doesn't matter how many you have, but especially as you become teenagers, especially as you become maybe older and not texting often, you get the text and you immediately start to formulate how you're to react. What starts to happen as the dad,

What do you generally do? You generally start to leak energy, I call it. You're already out of your comfort zone. And you shouldn't be. You're the adult in the room, right? You got a text from your child, but it already sends you into a...

sort of a, not a spiral, but a sort of a mini court case in your mind. You know, how is he going to play it? How is it going to read it? Right? How is it going to be taken? And so the texting of by itself becomes this sort of mental sort of jujitsu that you're starting to do. Right. And, and so you're already leaking energy. And again, where we talk about

connecting them, all we're trying to do is connect with our children. That's all we want. And there, it's not as if they're different today than we were 20, 30 years ago. They just have an additional, a different perspective in terms of timeframe and commitment. Okay. And the text window, I don't understand it either at all. Okay. Some day I'll figure it out. Right. But the texting is where

Robert Poirier (15:19)
Yeah, I know.

Eric Brockman (15:25)
dads really, really blow it. And I have some pretty good advice in the book. My simplest advice is just simply stop overthinking it. Number one, write the text, let it sit for 30 minutes. Just let it sit. It's not going anywhere. The kid's not going anywhere. you know, they have their own pace on texting anyways. So let it sit, then go back and read it.

You'll be surprised how often it reads kind of Read it back from the kid's perspective. Even a text about make sure to pick up the shoes

Robert Poirier (15:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Eric Brockman (16:06)
it could have maybe been something just basically like that. And once they've tipped over, there's no connecting back for a bit. And then you spend the next...

Robert Poirier (16:13)
Yeah, yeah.

Eric Brockman (16:16)
you've only got a day or so maybe with them or you've got limited time. I think the point of that long-winded story was that you spend so much of it wrestling with yourself and leaking that emotional availability, leaking that energy that you wind up not being present, unfortunately, even though you're trying really, really hard to be present.

Robert Poirier (16:44)
Yeah, it's true. mean, you know, and as dads and again, speak for myself, right. But.

You're so looking forward to seeing them. And maybe it's a text of, Hey, I'm going to be 30 minutes late getting there. And then I've got plans for tonight and tomorrow I'm doing this and that. You're thinking I've only got 72 hours with you. And now you're, you're taking all this time away from me. Well, then

What I've had to do is sit back and look great. Okay. It's taking time away from me. That's kind of a selfish way to look at it. but you've got to be careful with how you answer that. Or at least I've seen that very, very careful with how you answer that because this neediness and the strong arm can push them even further away. And you've also got to look, you know, I think about it when I was their age.

And this is the best way I've come over. Okay. When I was 16, did I have a social life? Yeah. You know, did, am I happy that my son is, you know, has plans for tonight and tomorrow afternoon that he has friends? Yeah. Okay. What if you take that away from him? Well, he's going to resent you, but at the same time,

Eric Brockman (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (17:58)
It could be somewhat negatively impactful to him. I mean, so it's kind of for me, I hope this makes sense. It's kind of.

Eric Brockman (18:06)
And it does.

Robert Poirier (18:07)
checking myself as to not, even though was my, would love to spend every moment with them. You know, I can't be selfish. I've got to let them have their life and be happy for them that they have the opportunities that they do. And that they do have, you know, a social life or, ⁓ what an athletic life, whatever it may be. And, just realizing that and look, sometimes I think as dads, we just got to.

shut up and swallow it. This is the, you know, these are the cards that were dealt. We've got to make the best of it. And the time that we do have, just make sure we don't sabotage that. And, know, going back to text you know, you say you get your kids on Friday, you know, you have a text exchange on Thursday or Wednesday or Thursday. That doesn't go well. That's already setting the stage for that coming weekend, you know, in a negative ass and a negative tone. So

Eric Brockman (18:58)
Yeah.

Robert Poirier (19:00)
Yeah, I get what you're saying with that.

Eric Brockman (19:02)
Yeah, I think that, and you talk about just fatherhood. ⁓

You know, there's a shift in my opinion. There's been a shift, right? A positive shift. When we were younger, I think there was this message, know, oh, be a dad, you know, get out there, go out with the kids. Unfortunately, a lot of us grew up, we hardly saw our dad at all, right? And so I think today, fortunately, I don't think that's a problem at all. I think there's many, many, many dads that are there. And I put that in the book and myself included, show up all the time, coach the games, do all the things that

Robert Poirier (19:24)
Yeah.

Eric Brockman (19:37)
you want to do, ⁓ But I think it's going back to just how men sort of, in talking about how we can maybe help each other through situations like this divorce or when you say, are moments that have worked or that I've seen, and I mentioned the texting, but men, don't necessarily tend to...

reach out to each other and connect with each other, right? It just is inherently women are wired that way. they're, they're tying with their mom, okay, in my opinion, there's less of this stripping away the connection piece. They are already sort of just there. The mom, and it's not just because the mom, it's because the mom has an emotional center. It's easier to connect to.

Robert Poirier (20:07)
Right.

Eric Brockman (20:33)
I'm sure it was easier for you to connect to your mom than your dad growing up. Most of just is. ⁓ I would pretend some of that has to do with soft eyes. Some of it has to do with your mom's eyes. I'm sure for you as your child is the softest thing going, right? It's the most warmest blanket you can ever put on. So we get that we should be fathers, right? We get that we should be there, and we are there.

We're just not very good at the execution. And part of it is, I think, because of the way that we're wired, the way that we think. Here's something I thought about, for men, talking to each other. So here, me and you, Robert, we're talking face to face. Everyone's a pretty honest, deep discussion. Pretty rare for two men, other than on a podcast, on a live podcast.

Robert Poirier (21:27)
Right.

Eric Brockman (21:30)
If you say we're, you know, say we were friends and, and, know, you say, Hey, you know, I got tickets to the game. We'd sit side by side. That's probably when we're going to have the most intimate conversations we're going to have side by side, whether at a game, whether you're working on a project.

And this can be with your children as well, right? But that's how men connect. It sounds peculiar, but think about it. That's side by side. Side by side, we've got no problem. Face to face feels odd. Women have done that forever, since eternity. They've wired that way.

Robert Poirier (22:00)
Yeah, that was true.

Eric Brockman (22:11)
And so when you go back to that, I think plays a big hand in where when you say, gosh, you've got this limited time, you've got to make it, you got to just make every second of it last. I think it's going back to viewpoint. And I know it sounds simplistic, but it's.

think a broader in a way and think more a little on the side of feminine, on the good traits of feminine, on the warmth pieces, on the ability to just be there. So when your child gets there to the house, instead of spending the first moments doing the dad thing of, hey, let's catch up, what's going on? How's this thing? How's that thing? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

just let them come in and breathe, let them just be in the room. My guess is the mom often does it that way, right? Or the conversation more natural, okay? So the example was more just to show just how perspective of, or just the thought of...

just us men, we're just wired different. if what we need to do is just when we talk about fatherhood, we talk about parenting, we talk about just life in transition. When we talk about any time that the floor shifts and life gets lobbed, which is like often, right? ⁓ You need a way to just have a centering, having a balance. And that's where if you can figure that piece out and be

I think a little bit more in that tuned state that hopefully there'll be more connection and then the other part is easier. That's what I've begun to find is when I've sort of pushed less, I've gotten more. It's surprising.

Robert Poirier (24:00)
Yeah.

What are some of the other challenges you see maybe that you faced or other men have faced that you address in the book and kind of solutions for that?

Eric Brockman (24:12)
Challenges, so I don't necessarily get into, there's a lot of divorce challenges and a lot of books about the different, you know, and lawyers and things like that. Yeah, but certainly with fatherhood and I think that one of the things that I kind of just touched on it is that,

Robert Poirier (24:18)
Right. But like with fatherhood, with fatherhood as a divorced dad.

Eric Brockman (24:31)
Men, us men, we don't necessarily have the understanding of our true emotions. know I might have just lost some of your podcast there, there's something to what women are able to do in terms of something I call a micro connection, right? And men, especially fathers,

And I talk about it in the book. think that if we can find the ability to be more attuned to who we are at that moment, right? I mean, it doesn't mean that you have to be saying I love you all the time and hugging and things that maybe you're not comfortable with, but you should be able to talk about and where you are more openly and honestly. And that's a struggle.

for men, struggle for me. It took me 57 years to do it basically, that's what the book is, is my first real honesty. It's something in the book I call the fakery zone. But men, if they could find a way to sort of absorb and collect these micro-connections, I think that life becomes sort of an easier,

daily tasks, so to speak. becomes definitely more enjoyable. It becomes definitely a better way to live.

And so that's where I, when you ask the question, I think that men, just in general, to have a bit of ⁓ an awareness, if you want to get fully to your understanding, that's fine. But I think it's just an awareness of where you are emotionally.

how honest you are with yourself. How honest you are then with your partner, maybe your ex or your current wife. How honest are with your children? Because we all have levels of honesty. We have to. But what starts to happen is in life is, and that's why I call this fakery zone,

is you put on an act. Not deceitful, it's not lying, it's not trickery, but you're not going to tell somebody that they look awful today. Or you're not going to tell your kid that, I can't afford that because I'm probably getting laid off. So you have to bake levels of honesty. We all have to do it. What is critical, in my opinion,

And what men don't do at all, very honestly, with themselves, I haven't in my whole life, is understanding where you are in each of these exchanges, right? And then being able to remove the mask, really before it kind of fuses to your face without having it be this permanent, like I was, like I was telling you, this sort of fog that you're in where you're just a mask, right?

Robert Poirier (27:35)
Yeah.

So soft, soft

eyes, strong mind. I, if, if I was so I'm sorry, soft eyes and straw, a strong spine. So basically it's about having compassion. It's about being vulnerable, being a safe space.

Eric Brockman (27:43)
Strong spine. That's okay.

Robert Poirier (27:56)
there being accountability. They're being repercussions. They're, you know, showing them what I deem. can't think of another definition for it, but what a father is, you know, that, you know, giving them that strong support and correction when needed as well as but finding a way where that happy balance is, is that pretty accurate?

Eric Brockman (28:20)
100%. You just sold the book for me, basically. Yeah, that is it.

Robert Poirier (28:24)
Yeah. Cause that's that, that is, that,

that is, you know, that is challenging. I mean, it's a, ⁓ you know, like, like, like I talked about at the beginning, I mean, you know, I've gone to both extremes. ⁓ you've got your, you've got your weekend with them. You don't want it to be, ⁓ fighting, arguing that you're on them the whole time about certain things. but you also don't want to be super easy. mean,

Eric Brockman (28:29)
100%, yes.

Robert Poirier (28:53)
Look, it's very easy to have them come in and you just accept everything. I've had the, I've had those phases where, know what, I'm just going to let things go. We're just going to enjoy this weekend. Well, last weekend was great. So we're going to enjoy the next one and the next one. It just builds that. And then the next thing, you know, they're going down a path or they're acting a certain way that you don't want that, you know, that you're like, Whoa, this could be detrimental for them later on. Or, you know, that's not the kind of.

Eric Brockman (28:57)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (29:21)
For me, it's sons that I want to raise And so then it's the challenge for me is do you just turn it up all the way or do you gradually start increasing that? Now, what we do is we talk about it Hey dad, you know, I've probably been slipping the last few months and letting you guys kind of get away with this. you know, I don't like where that's going or that's not the way I want you guys raised.

Eric Brockman (29:38)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (29:47)
So you're going to see me starting to turn this up more. That's generally the way that I have addressed that when I have, and vice versa on the flip, when I've been extremely strict about certain things,

it's, it's, it's definitely a challenge, you know, and something that literally

I find myself checking where am I? Where am I with this? And, and how do I, how do I need to do this? And how do I need to parent them better? Are they going in the direction that I hope they're there in? Because, I know I'm probably different than a, or maybe similar. don't know, but the way I am is, and I talked about earlier is I've got

certain goals for the boys, not achievement type, but in raising them in this society and definitely by certain ages and.

you know, things that I want to instill in them. mean, you know, and, I feel that pressure on me, you know, you never know when today's your last day. You never know what tomorrow brings. Right. And so I think with dads that maybe view it in that warped way that I just said that I do you, ⁓ there's an immense amount of pressure that you want to instill these things in that short amount of time.

Eric Brockman (30:55)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

It really is.

Robert Poirier (31:12)
that you have with them. And it's challenging.

you know, one of the challenges with me is just it's staying that consistent. ⁓ it's respecting what goes on at both houses and trying to realize what they might be used to over there, accepting that and, ⁓ how can I implement some of that over here? So there's not as much of a shock, right.

but just understand, understanding where they're coming from with that and explaining it to them with them.

Eric Brockman (31:42)
Yeah, well what you said there

is the key explaining it to them. think that there, what I was guilty of as well, was not enough boundaries, many times, especially in the early years. boundaries, enough, you know, just clear rules and... ⁓

Robert Poirier (31:53)
Was not enough what? Yeah. Which is so easy. It's so easy not to have the boundaries.

Eric Brockman (32:01)
Yeah, but I think that with, I know that with what I'm trying to instill with Strong Spine is its boundaries with clarity. And children get that. You'd be surprised. It's just like how surprising sometimes people are that kids like chores.

They don't love doing it, but especially if you give them a chore with a tiny bit of allowance. I know it's old school and whatever, but I'm not saying that that's the answer and that's in the book Soft Eyes, Spine, but the point is that there is a feeling of consistency and boundaries that children have that their life is confusing. I mean, it's tough to be a kid. So when you can give them that consistency,

And so what you're going to say, okay, Eric, I read the book, I'm going to do it. It's going to be a slow burn and it's going to have to be that you keep showing up, you keep being present, you keep not over correcting, not overthinking. You're doing what I did as well, Robert, and that you're self-auditing yourself constantly. And yeah, and that's what really ⁓

Robert Poirier (33:11)
All the time.

Eric Brockman (33:17)
As much as anything the book starts to do is it gives and names things and it gives things handles. you know a handle is you put something on that's difficult to carry and now you've got a handle. So that's what this that's what the book does is it as you start to name things as you start to peel out and look at it.

you'll be surprised, I've already hearing all the things you're doing right. You're doing a lot of correct things. So less self-auditing, more believing in that you're doing things properly. And I think that going back to the boundaries, you and the children, me and my children, when there is that contained sort of understanding, I think everything else flows a little bit easier. So I think there might be hopefully...

Hopefully there's a positive road that you get from it. I'm sure your relationship is a lot better than you think, but you never know.

Robert Poirier (34:14)
No, no, no. I mean, I do believe

my my relationship with my kids is excellent. I mean, it really is. And ⁓ it's better than I. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's than I ever could have could have could have imagined, would have imagined. ⁓ But, you know, but as a parent, it's how do we how can I improve that? Right. It's not accepting. OK, it's a great relationship. And I'm just going to accept that. I think.

Eric Brockman (34:19)
Yeah, yeah, we're good. But you still self audit constantly. That's what we all do. Yeah.

Well, that's fantastic. That's the key.

Yep.

Robert Poirier (34:41)
For me it is.

I don't want to say, ⁓ I, am, I am grateful for the relationship and re and I do recognize that, right? I do that. I am very grateful for it. I do recognize it, but it's, you know, what can I do differently? How can I be a better dad? How can I, and mine not isn't so much as it is, it is. And how can I improve it? Even our relationship more, but

Eric Brockman (34:54)
That's good.

Yeah.

Robert Poirier (35:11)
It is this of, look, they're young men and they're about to be on their own, be about, about to be out in the real world in a few short years. How can I make them the best man they can be out there to, to go out in this world? And so that's the, you know, and going easy on them, letting things slide. That's definitely not it. That might keep the peace. And, know, I have faced that at times where.

Eric Brockman (35:18)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Robert Poirier (35:40)
You know, I've had to crawl all over them about something, knowing that they're leaving me in two hours and, ⁓ I won't see them again for a week and they might be upset with me, but you know, I, you come to that point where it's like, you've got to decide, do I do this or do I not? And I've, I have handled it both ways and I have regretted at the end of the day.

Eric Brockman (35:51)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (36:08)
I have regretted it when I've gone easy versus when I have been more strict or I've kept boundaries or shown them that there are consequences. ⁓ So it's, you know, I would feel like I'd be less of a father if not.

Eric Brockman (36:26)
Yeah, well, you kind of touched on it earlier. When we talk about soft eyes, strong spine, it's the ability to...

be firm, his ability to be warm, right, his ability to be the father that you want to be during these difficult transition moments, but without losing your identity, without losing it. You know, and I think that is unfortunately what a lot of times I probably had done. I think that other fathers do as well is, and that's why I was talking about honesty. How honest are you with yourself? And my

Robert Poirier (36:47)
Right.

Eric Brockman (37:02)
sort of shift was a real stripping down, real deconstructing of all the layers and almost simplifying it. Like I said, almost just trying to find right in the middle, in the balance and just being in there and being a little bit more...

like I say in the book, emotionally available at the right frequency. And that's a really strong phrase, right? And it sounds cool in the back of the book, but when you break it down, it's actually pretty...

simplistic to think about it, it's being emotionally available, right? So we all get there, we all, you know, in other words, if they're in a good mood, match their mood. If they're in a bad mood, well, you better talk a little, you know, be a little bit more sensitive, be a little bit more ⁓ aware of what they're actually facing, right? But what we don't necessarily adjust is the

amount of it, the frequency of it, frequency in terms of a timing, like with a text, ⁓ but also in the broader frequency of the vibe, especially in today's world, especially with, I think, how kids are wired, they'll feel that sort of pulsing that you're, if you're in that sour mood or whatever, ⁓ it's bringing that positive,

feel and when you do connect, what happens is instead of spending the first moments of either your text or your conversation in person, of unwinding or figuring out where you were off on that connection, you're just already flying and doing whatever you're supposed to do, if that's clear, if that makes any sense.

Robert Poirier (38:53)
No, it does. does. know, I think through all this too, it's, it's, I think one thing that's improved us, I know we're kind of getting off the subject of your book, but it's just the open communication that we have within our house. And that open communication is not only about ways that I would like for them to improve in certain things or where I'm proud of them on certain things.

But it is also when I've screwed up and maybe how I handled something a week ago or two weeks ago or a month ago. And you know what? I was thinking about the way I handled this and, you know, I kind of went at that wrong or I kind of chewed on you a little bit too much on that. And maybe I shouldn't have or, or flip side, you know, I was thinking about a couple of weeks ago and you said this and the way you said it. And I let that slide because I didn't want to

I didn't want to cause an argument then because you guys were leaving in a couple hours, but that has really rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm just letting you know right now that going forward, that's not going to be accepted. And those conversations have, and also when I've been able to, again, go back to the first part with where I'll approach something wrong and to apologize when I have done that, those conversations.

Eric Brockman (40:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (40:18)
I feel like have been very impactful on our relationship in such a positive way.

Eric Brockman (40:23)
Yeah. Well, one of the things that you felt, I felt, and that any divorced man feels, whether he left or he was asked to leave, and it doesn't matter if the relationship with the kids was rock solid or if it was shaky to begin with, and it's one simple question, and it's what's going to happen to my relationship with the kids after the divorce? And it's that simple. And we...

Robert Poirier (40:46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric Brockman (40:51)
Like I said, we us guys, us divorced men, that's on day one, minute one. And you start to, I call it self-auditing, it's a strong word, but you start to think in your mind all these different scenarios constantly. And that's what I've done, that's what you're doing. it's because of that underlying fear and reality. And it's not just, hey, I wanna be a dad, and like the old commercial,

from the 90s show up and be a dad We're all showing up. In fact, a lot of us maybe got sort of pushed to the side a little bit, right, in this whole co-parenting situation. But what we, because of it, I think that we tend to do like what you're doing is really analyzing every aspect, every conversation, every text.

I hear you saying it and I am really guilty of it myself. The book, as I've said, it comes out of lived experience. This isn't a PhD writing a book. Yeah.

Robert Poirier (41:56)
No, that sounds good because it is

it. am not only self auditing after and before, but sometimes even during the time. And, and, then you don't even feel, ⁓ I mean, it's natural, but you also don't even feel natural in that. And you know, ⁓ so I get that. mean, and that's some of it's the way I am. ⁓ and I think then you put.

Eric Brockman (42:04)
Mm-hmm. Right. We all do it, I think.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (42:25)
more pressure on yourself. You know, when, when you're, I think that's way I am in life, but then you put more pressure on yourself when you're in a situation with shared parenting.

Eric Brockman (42:35)
Yeah, well, it's your kids and you

know how important it is and you want it to be. Like I said, I've said it a couple of times now, several times, but I really think that the shift, men being wanting to be good fathers, that shift has happened. That ship is at port. So now we're all here, but we're all scratching our heads. We're all kind of confused. And that's a lot of ways that's where this book grew from. Over the years, especially with my child that's still estranged, unfortunately,

And, but yeah, I've talked to therapists, I've tried to find a book or two to read. And I don't know if you have, but even today, I mean, essentially every book in this space is written by a PhD of some level.

most often a woman, and I'm sure they have amazing insights, and they're tremendously bright and can really have a lot of tremendous impact in a therapy session, right? But what they don't have is the viewpoint of a dad, of a father.

Robert Poirier (43:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Eric Brockman (43:40)
And really, you know, the book was written, it came out of divorce, it was written kind of for men. It's because of all the things I talked about that this balancing act of soft eyes and strong spine, and it's really for any parent, that's where the kind of the floor of life is shifting and, you know, it's getting loud, right? And

But it's when you talk about for men, for us, like you were saying, know, can you, what do you do? How do you self audit? There's not a whole lot of things out there that are just a divorce book for a man written by a man. And that's what this is. This is, it's not theory. I'll show you the cracks. I show them throughout the book and I used, basically each chapter is very similar. It's a story.

Robert Poirier (44:12)
Right.

Eric Brockman (44:31)
It's what I learned in the story and then it's kind of hopefully a bit of a takeaway ⁓ that you can take from the chapter. And at the end it's actually called filled notes.

Robert Poirier (44:39)
That is great. That's great. can't I can't wait to. Yeah,

I can't wait. I can't wait to dig into it. I definitely can't. What else? ⁓ Before we wrap up? What else would you want to share?

Eric Brockman (44:49)
Yeah.

So really we've shared so much, know, in terms of the book itself, the book, as I mentioned, it's soft eyes, strong spine. It's available anywhere. Really, people shop Barnes and Noble online, but Amazon, especially Amazon and hardback ⁓ hardcover. I mean, paperback and then Kindle, but Apple Book as well. And then all.

the ebook formats like Kobo and Google that are available as well. But the way to find it is just simply, yeah, I was just saying, it's just softeyesstrongspine.com, all one word. And that's the website. And there you'll see the book. I would love people to read, but for free, if you're not quite ready to jump into the book, I write a newsletter, an email, it's free.

Robert Poirier (45:22)
Okay. And then your social media pages, people can find you.

Okay. Okay.

Eric Brockman (45:47)
You can sign up on the website and it's short reflections, ⁓ they're email, a few minutes to read. It's usually something that is either recent or fairly recent that I've either been through or I've observed or that I want to kind of share.

And they're mostly about parenting, mostly about divorce, but there's also some things here and there about work and some things just about in general life. so that's notes from a divorce dad and love for people to sign up for that. But thanks for the chance to to plug it, Robert. But yeah, soft eyes, strong spine.com in there. You'll see all my socials. I'm on ⁓ X with ES Brockman, which is my author's name. And then Instagram, soft eyes, strong spine, all one word.

and then on Facebook, there's a Facebook page, Soft Eye Strong Spine. yeah, thank you so much.

Robert Poirier (46:45)
That's great. Basically, mean, so it is a

parenting book for divorced dads. I think which is, again, I'm really looking forward to digging in because there are challenges and anybody that says there's not, either they're totally oblivious or they're lying. yeah, yeah. Yeah, because...

Eric Brockman (46:51)
Yeah.

Yep, I agree. With a lion, yeah. Yeah, they're oblivious to the lion. That's a good one. Well, like I said,

the book came out of divorce, but it's really just for anyone navigating change or noise in their life. And I think if people are experiencing that and give it a read, I feel pretty strongly that they'll get something from it. So I'm really, really pleased to put it out there for people.

Robert Poirier (47:19)
Yeah. ⁓

Well,

and it is out. It's out now just recently released and, okay. And I will put a link to everything on, whenever I post, I'll put a link on there. So people could look down the description and find it as well. And look, I thank you all for, ⁓ listening to the dad to dads podcast. You can find us on Apple or Spotify as well as most platforms. You can also find us on YouTube and Instagram.

Eric Brockman (47:32)
Yes, 100%.

Great, thank you.

Robert Poirier (47:54)
Don't forget to the like and subscribe button and feel free to leave a comment. I read every one of them and I really enjoy doing so as well and I look forward to speaking with you all next time.