Discover the transformative skincare journey of Dr. Linder, the trailblazing founder of Linder Health, as she graces our podcast. With a career that artfully blends engineering, medicine, and a deep-seated passion for aesthetic medicine, Dr. Linder reveals the experiences that have shaped her innovative path in dermatology. From her early days as a curious child to the pivotal moments in her education and fellowships that guided her to revolutionize skincare practices, her story is a testament to the power of fusing art with science for the betterment of patient care.
Embark on an exploration of entrepreneurial spirit and the relentless pursuit of skincare excellence as Dr. Linder takes us behind the scenes of building a skincare empire. She recollects her journey serving as the developer and Chief Scientific Officer for PCA Skin, guiding all product development and clinical trials for the company. We then dive into the evolution of her latest venture as she founded Linder Health, amid the trials of a global pandemic. Delving into the nuances of skincare innovation, we discuss the parallels between maintaining healthy skin and dental hygiene, the necessity of evolving traditional skincare methodologies, and the joy of cultivating a family business anchored in a collective passion for science. Dr. Linder's commitment to longevity and health span in the industry is not just inspiring—it's reshaping how we approach our skincare routines.
Join us as we dissect the science behind the latest advancements in skincare treatments and the importance of a holistic approach to wellness that encompasses mental and physical health. Dr. Linder shares her insights on revolutionary peel treatments, the science of ingredients like Tranexamic acid, and the critical role of daily sunscreen application across all skin tones. Moreover, we traverse the terrain of product compliance, the significance of a minimalist skincare routine, and the impact of a well-rounded wellness routine that includes not only top-notch skincare but also sleep, nutrition, and stress management. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's a masterclass in nurturing your skin and overall well-being, courtesy of a true skincare virtuoso.
Visit linderhealth.com/anarchy or use code "Anarchy" to receive a free magnesium supplement, CALM!
Follow The Show On All Socials Using The Tag @skincareanarchy
Discover the transformative skincare journey of Dr. Linder, the trailblazing founder of Linder Health, as she graces our podcast. With a career that artfully blends engineering, medicine, and a deep-seated passion for aesthetic medicine, Dr. Linder reveals the experiences that have shaped her innovative path in dermatology. From her early days as a curious child to the pivotal moments in her education and fellowships that guided her to revolutionize skincare practices, her story is a testament to the power of fusing art with science for the betterment of patient care.
Embark on an exploration of entrepreneurial spirit and the relentless pursuit of skincare excellence as Dr. Linder takes us behind the scenes of building a skincare empire. She recollects her journey serving as the developer and Chief Scientific Officer for PCA Skin, guiding all product development and clinical trials for the company. We then dive into the evolution of her latest venture as she founded Linder Health, amid the trials of a global pandemic. Delving into the nuances of skincare innovation, we discuss the parallels between maintaining healthy skin and dental hygiene, the necessity of evolving traditional skincare methodologies, and the joy of cultivating a family business anchored in a collective passion for science. Dr. Linder's commitment to longevity and health span in the industry is not just inspiring—it's reshaping how we approach our skincare routines.
Join us as we dissect the science behind the latest advancements in skincare treatments and the importance of a holistic approach to wellness that encompasses mental and physical health. Dr. Linder shares her insights on revolutionary peel treatments, the science of ingredients like Tranexamic acid, and the critical role of daily sunscreen application across all skin tones. Moreover, we traverse the terrain of product compliance, the significance of a minimalist skincare routine, and the impact of a well-rounded wellness routine that includes not only top-notch skincare but also sleep, nutrition, and stress management. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's a masterclass in nurturing your skin and overall well-being, courtesy of a true skincare virtuoso.
Visit linderhealth.com/anarchy or use code "Anarchy" to receive a free magnesium supplement, CALM!
Follow The Show On All Socials Using The Tag @skincareanarchy
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Skincare Anarchy. This is your host, ekta, and I have such an amazing guest today. I am a huge fan of her work. She is truly a genius. If any of you have heard of PCA Skin, she was the chief scientific officer and behind all of the amazing, brilliant formulas that were developed under PCA Skin. Now she is starting her own, or has started her own line, and this is the second time around. So, without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Dr Linder, who is behind Linder Health. Welcome to the show, dr Linder. I'm so excited to interview you and to chat with you. I really love the new line, so welcome, thank you.
Speaker 2:This is such a pleasure. I love talking to another like-minded nerdy, geeky, science-focused person, and I love the fact that your audience is into it as well.
Speaker 1:We love science here, and I think that's what you know really kind of gets us going. I mean, from what I hear from you guys listening in, that's what you guys chime in about, and I'm the same way. So, and I think your line is truly a testament to great science. I mean, I've been really loving it and that, trust me, you're going to hear me rave about that a lot during this episode, because I think that you know it's very important to create truly meaningful solutions in this space, and I think you've done exactly that, you know, with the new line. So, before I dive into that though, dr Linder, I would love to learn about your background and if you could tell us you know what got you into dermatology, and obviously you know in the beauty space and the skin space and the aesthetic space as well.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for asking. I am one of those kids who always wanted to know more. I mean totally curious, dove into everything. I don't know if you remember the Richard Scary books. They're about how everything works in the background. Those were my favorite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I always yes, and my both my dad and brother are engineers, my mom's a teacher, and so I really knew I wanted to do something in the STEM field and I was looking at engineering and medicine and I wasn't even quite sure what it'd be, and so I went into engineering first and I actually ended up graduating with a degree in bioengineering and in chemistry and then I decided I really wanted to be more hands-on with the people piece and I'd had an experience working in a hospital when I was young and sort of decided to go back into it and decided to go to med school, loved gross anatomy, which sort of was unexpected, given I was one of those kids that didn't like to get dirty and stuff. I always said I had, and even still I really need to be able to wear gloves to touch disgusting things. But when I can, I can have blood shooting on the ceiling and in my hair and it doesn't matter to me, but I just wanted to know how things work and in the end, the human body, to me, was the thing that was truly almost the most magical, right I think. I kind of think of the human body as almost being another cosmos. I think there's as much to learn inside, as we have to learn going outside, into the greater ether, and it, just it, fostered so much just beauty and how it all comes together.
Speaker 2:And then I think, as I got into medicine, I am a painter as well and have always loved the arts, and so I have this kind of left brain, right brain, engineering and art side of myself. And so when I took a dermatology elective, on the recommendation of a friend who was also an engineer and painter, it was like this is it? This is magic. I instantaneously knew that this was it, because I could see what was going on and it's a lot of pattern recognition.
Speaker 2:And then when you layer on top of the piece where you get deeply personally engaged with people I mean it is a field where people come to you with their absolute vulnerabilities, that in many ways they hide even that sense of vulnerability, sometimes from their own families. And when we do studies in dermatology we often talk about quality of life. It's like a big piece of it, and so that, just it, just it was a place where I could feel a sense of purpose, both in taking care of people, the social, emotional piece, the medical piece. And then when I discovered that you could really develop formulation. You know, then brought back in that problem solving and part of chemistry and it was sort of like this amalgamation that was unexpected for me that that came together.
Speaker 1:I love what you said about the people aspect of this, because that's something that no one ever really talks about. It's like we understand that dermatology touches a lot of lives. You know what I mean. I think all of us at one point we've had a bump or acne or something that's happened. We're like, oh my gosh, you know what's going on, and it's such an immediate thing too, where it's like you know what shows on your skin. It immediately impacts you. So we don't talk about how much dermatology is a field in medicine. That's very like, you know, people driven. You know it's about that very much, you know, and so it's really fascinating to me that you say that, and it's very cool that you have such a robust background, though. I mean, engineering is no joke. That must have been quite a transition for you.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know I loved it. It was like I actually like the physics and the chemistry and the biology, so bioengineering sort of combined all that together. And then I went on after Durham and did a Moh Skin Cancer Fellowship and also did a laser fellowship. So again like layering on top of all these things that I think over time each one of them has benefited me in what I'm doing now. And I think that's the way it is in STEM right Is that we just keep sort of gathering knowledge and sort of recognizing patterns that come together that then make us better at what we currently do, so that we can actually be a benefit to society.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, you just keep piling on the knowledge. Yeah, exactly, I mean, I think that's that's really the difference. You know, I think a long time ago one of my mentors said that you know, that's the difference between you know, just a normal doctor and a great doctor is that they'll never stop learning. They'll never want to stop learning. So that's so, so important. Now I want to ask you I mean, obviously you're brilliant when it comes to product formulation. I mean, I've loved the products in the PCA lineup. I know you were behind all of them and you were behind the creation of such a beautiful line there. But now you've done it again here, you know, with with your new company. So why? Why did you want to come back and create a new line and a new skincare company?
Speaker 2:That's a great. That's a great. So what basically happened was my partner and husband of you know, we've been friends for almost 30 years. We, after he finished Harvard business school. I had the idea basically what happened was I got my own melasma worse during my fellowship because I lasered it and made it worse. And then right there is like my own experience with, I hear, I'm this dermatologist and my skin was awful and I needed to solve it. And I had a skincare rep from another company Actually, it was my skin studio coach rep recommended that I try the what was at the time called Physician's Choice of Arizona Peels. It was this tiny little company based in Arizona and I tried that and it worked. And so I got curious and my husband and I were on vacation in Scottsdale and we stopped by in the office after, of course, giving heads up, and I so connected with the person who was doing R&D and then I had some ideas around some sunscreens and things and started working with her and, over time and relationship, richard and I ended up purchasing that nugget of a company and then founding together what became PCA Skin. And so, in the process, my chemist who is still my chemist I actually hired her out of Canada to PCA Skin and we, together with our team, formulated that entire line and formulated or reformulated as time went on.
Speaker 2:You, of course, need to update. I think that's really important with any skincare company is you don't rely and sit on your laurels. You keep updating, understanding the science, and we grew that into 72 countries and 15,000 offices. And we grew that into 72 countries and 15,000 offices and I really loved it. It kept my brain sparking in so many different areas. I really, you know, obviously got deep into product formulation and then also understanding the business side and how you can really make things better for practices. And I really loved working with skincare specialists and clinicians across the board, because I have a belief that when you go and get a treatment, that hands-on component, that empathy of as to what products one should use at home because what you're doing at home matters as much as what you do in the office or with the treatment I mean it's like the dentist, right? If you just go to the dentist and get your teeth checked and cleaned two times a year, it's not going to do it. You got to brush your teeth every day too, and that's how you actually stay healthy. You need to do both pieces. So I think taking care of your skin is much the same. So back to your question of like, why do it again, right?
Speaker 2:So basically, through that process I, you know, we burned the candle at both ends traveled all over the world and then, like many physicians, I decided to have children later in life and that was a struggle and and I struggled with postpartum depression and fertility and these different things and we decided we needed to just kind of take a step back for our personal health. And then it was time for PCA Skin to go on and grow and flourish in its own way. And it's like having a child go off to college. You have to watch them go off and have their own successes and their own failures and it brings me great joy to see that line continue to be successful. But it is like my first baby.
Speaker 2:And so during COVID you know things really I got super curious again, as did some of my team which had gone on and created and become consultants and created some of their own different companies and things. And in fact, one of my team members during COVID went through a difficult family situation. She actually came to live with myself and my three daughters and my husband and you know, naturally these people are part of my family and so what we do honestly is we read PubMed. I mean, we are truly geeky. We are geeky women, yeah. And so during COVID, you know, I think all of us were trying to think and like what's going on and, as a result, the idea of longevity and overall health and expanding, you know, the idea of health span rather than just lifespan, which is that quality of life being longer, really, really triggered us, and so that's actually where we started first was thinking about the whole body, even in the supplement space, inflammation you know what's going on in that realm, and that's where the ideas kind of started bubbling up.
Speaker 2:And then Denae Marklin, who's been with me since like 2005,. She and I, and and some of the other team members, were working on an education platform that we wanted to expand education for anyone who's in the skincare space, and we started doing that. It was just, you know, great time for online learning, and so we were, you know, learning more about how to do that and expanding that. And subsequently that was a that was a separate company, and now we've we've actually integrated that into what is now their lender health. There's a online educational portal that we actually have for the people and clinicians who partner with us, and so that's gotten inter-rimmed in that.
Speaker 2:So it started as an education company and then, as we were basically making and testing and playing with peels for ourselves and some home care ideas and products, they turned about to be so good that we decided we actually needed to do this again. So it didn't start out with like, okay, we need to do another company. It really was just like the ideas percolated up and we were all kind of doing different things and it became, you know, a family business again and another sense, except now it's my greater family. You know the wonderful women that have been a part of my life for a really long time now, and we saw an opportunity that there's, you know people. There was a space to bring what we understand about aging and longevity into the skincare and peel space and that feels really had not truly been updated in 50 years, and so we saw the need for that. We saw a way that we could make it better, and Dr Ivana Vekovic she's my PhD in organic chemistry is truly brilliant. She has, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of different. She's. My PhD in organic chemistry is truly brilliant. She has, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of different products she's created and worked through and it just it worked out so beautifully.
Speaker 2:And then senescent cells just became my absolute obsession and some new data came out around how we can affect senescent cells both with peels as well as home care. So that was sort of the impetus and the spark that opened the whole idea. Yeah, and you were like I have to do this, like, yeah, it was one of the things where I just have to do it. And you know, and then my, my third daughter, went off to kindergarten last year. It is like, okay, now I really have the time to put into this and and that, and so the timing worked out to be right and and my team, you know, had finished different projects that they were working on and we could come together and have this, have this bubble up as something positive.
Speaker 1:That came out of COVID? Absolutely no. I think this is like so brilliant because, first of all, like the line is it's absolutely brilliant and I think the reason I feel that way as a consumer, like off the bat, you know, when I felt the products, I was like immediately like this is great, because I prefer lighter weight products that are still going to do something great for my skin. So immediately it felt great. But the peel part is what really got me, because these peels are so interesting that you know I've never seen this before where it's like you're not scared of a peel.
Speaker 1:Let me put it down because I'm scared, like I remember the first time I went and got a facial peel done and it was the most for me, at least, you know, in my own mind the most scary thing, because I didn't know what to expect. You know what I mean. And so, like when I went through it for the first time, it wasn't like anything drastic, but like it was still something where I felt like, okay, I've, I've taken a big step here. You know what I mean. Like for me, and because I'm more of like an at-home, topical kind of person, you know. And so when you, when you were talking about the peels, I was, you know, I'm really intrigued because these are very like the downtime is like next to nothing on these, you know. And so how is this like? What? Can you expand a little bit on some of the things you mentioned? Can you talk?
Speaker 1:about senescent cells and all that good stuff. So I want to learn more about that.
Speaker 2:So we came at this from two things One, the science piece, which I'll touch on in just a second, around the senescent, and then the other piece. So actually let me start with that, because what happened was is this new data came out that alpha hydroxy acids, which are your things like lactic glycolic, those fruit-based acids, if you keep them in a pH between three and 3.5, they can actually reverse and kill off senescent cells. And senescent cells are those zombie cells that worsen inflammation, are likely a major part of aging. And also the fact that using the right percentages, the right kind, using something like lactic acid, it's actually been shown to reverse that, and so that was one thing we started working with and then understanding that it's not just so.
Speaker 2:Traditionally, peels are put in alcohol. People tend to traditionally do higher percentages because they think more is better, they'll get more of an effect. You know they do, or they'll lower the pH, and all this, of course, relates to inflammation, irritation. They do or they'll lower the pH, and all this, of course, relates to inflammation, irritation, things being uncomfortable, stinging, et cetera, and like many you know traditional American things is like more is better. Well, we now understand. It's the exact opposite, right, like all things in medicine we now know controlling inflammation being in the sweet spot where you are in a system to do just what you want it to do, but not let it get out of control. And so by actually choosing the right percentages, the right combinations, the right types of peel ingredients in the right vehicle, you can actually get the peel to penetrate deeper and therefore have more effect. And don't forget, because of cell signaling, you don't have to have the peel go all the way to the dermis to have an effect on the dermis, right, by choosing the right ingredient, you can actually trigger cell signaling. So, rather than it just being that the benefit of the peel is the cell turnover, we now are actually able to do things around its senescence triggering pigment, controlling pigment, all these different things, what we put into it. And we can think about the skin as, as you know, a lipid bilayer, right. So it is both. You need to have a part that loves the lipid and you'd have a part that loves the water, and if you design something well, you can get better penetration by taking those two things in effect, and so that's actually a part of the peel ingredients as well, so you get more of an effect. So this I we really talk about this as being the next generation of chemical peel that they have not really been updated in 50 years.
Speaker 2:And the other big thing is, traditionally people have done peels using ingredients like TCA phenol, which are quite actually caustic and they actually trigger necrosis, right, so rather than, which then triggers more inflammation. So I no longer like to use those ingredients. I obviously use those ingredients for 20 years, but it's now knowing that there's something better that could be done. There's a reason why ingredients like resorcinol haven't been available in the EU for a long time for the same kind of reason. And then I really limit glycolic acid to only patients that really have oily acneic skin, where I'm really going after acne, because in that case it's that the alpha hydroxy acid, glycolic acid, is a very small molecule and so it absorbs really quickly, moves through and it actually dehydrates the skin.
Speaker 2:So it's thinking about from a scientific level, rather than just let's keep doing the things that we've done all the time because they work. We now actually can, understanding how the chemistry work, to choose ingredients in a better way, and so it really is, as a result, an update of what's going on and then the benefit you have is not only are they highly effective, but there's no downtime. That whole idea of that flaking, peeling the reason why it's called a peel because you used to peel like a snake or you'd be bred like Samantha on Sex and the City that doesn't have to happen. By using malic acid and salicylic acid as part of it, you chop off the keratinocytes in tiny little pieces and so they come off like dandruff, just like fine little flakes. So if you're wearing black you might see it.
Speaker 1:But that whole idea that you need to peel like a skin, like a snake, yeah, Like I think that's what scared, like even for me, like before I even got a peel, that was the scary part. It was those horror stories of like, oh god, your face is gonna look like a freaking tomato, you know what I mean, and you're just gonna be, yeah, and that's scary, but like there's literally no downtime. And I've noticed also, like you guys have like high concentrations of like mandelic acid and a couple of them, you know, and I love mandelic, it's one of my favorite things. Yeah, and that's where it's so fascinating what you said about glycolic and how AHAs are like the really, really small, you know, the smaller acids, and they do go deeper, because mandelic to me, has been such an interesting ingredient for so long because of the larger size and I that aromatic ring right.
Speaker 2:That aromatic ring in many ways mirrors the structure of salicylic acid, so it acts a little bit like a beta and an alpha-hydroxy acid at the same time, and so the way it cuts, so the way it breaks up the skin, as well as the way it penetrates, that's crazy and I feel like the results are actually better.
Speaker 1:To be honest, the results are much better. You know, like I just I feel like glycolic for me and I don't know if anyone out there listening can relate to this, but whenever I use glycolic acid on my skin like it really irritates it, because I don't have very active acne lesions. So I feel like if you're just somebody who's looking for like a maintenance thing, when you're going into your the you know aesthetic office or wherever you're, you know you're going for your treatments you're not looking for this extreme level of you know I need this extreme treatment. I mean, if you're looking for maintenance level treatments, this is just logical in my opinion, you know, because if you're wanting an extreme beneficial outcome.
Speaker 2:It's also the logical thing because the way it comes together, you will get an effect like as effective or more so than what we used to see by doing high percentage glycolic acid. The phenol based, like the you know some, like some of these pills that have small amounts of phenol the TCA based pills. You will get more than that because we're not letting the inflammation happen, you're not going down that road, and so you can actually get more of the benefits without the negative part. So you're not having to, like go in the negative part of the wound healing process and so you actually get a better result than you would like. Actually, the reason why we felt the need to launch the peels, we did just even one of them and the results were so much better. They were equivalent to what we had seen from doing, you know, series of superficial chemical peels in the past. So when you do a series on this, it, it does that much more and I think people under. And the other thing we did is we added TXA to them, trans-examic acid. If I put it in the right pH, you get a better absorption as TXA, so it has the benefit to lifting pigmentation, and pigmentation really is the first sign of aging for all skin types.
Speaker 2:We used to think about it really, as you know, especially for those with darker melanin, but it's actually true for Fitzpatrick 1s and 2s as well. You know, you just don't necessarily realize that someone might come in. You know, if they're coming into a clinician's office, they might say, oh, I want these fine lines and wrinkles, but if you just make the skin more even, the skin looks more youthful. Now, of course, these peels also trigger collagen, elastin, improve fine lines and wrinkles and hyperpigmentation, and all these different things at the same time is looking great, and you can get it the same day you go into an office. You don't have to stop any of your medication. You can do it the same. You don't have to take a break from your retinols and all those things that we used to always say you had to do with peel and so you don't have to have that. You know, once I get excited, I want to do something. I do the same thing when I get my hair cut or colored.
Speaker 2:I want to do it that day right, and so you can actually make a consult with somebody the same day. You can do it year round. It doesn't matter if you're in Arizona where it's 120 degrees, you can still get a feel. There is no longer this idea of peel season, and I spend a third of my time in Jacksonville, wyoming, and there we have to worry about the dryness. It's extremes of different sorts, and so you can do it in all these different environments, which, as a clinician, was always the hard part. So we really thought about what are the pain points for both the clinician and the esthetician and the dermatologist, whoever's treating the patient. So to make it so there's no downtime, there's, I mean, we're talking mild, mild tingling. This is not a painful thing in any way whatsoever. You know, I say people. You know scale of zero to 10, what they feel like, and it's like a one or two usually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just yeah it's just, they're just lovely and it all comes down to how the formulas put together. And it's all about myself and my team do everything with great intention because it came out of a geekiness right. This didn't come out of marketing, this came out of just. You know how do we try it like this in this space that we've known forever with you know, 60 years experience between us, that on our geeky side, that like how do we, how do we improve things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like that's really the heart of like why I personally, like as a consumer, I fell in love with skincare because of that, like exactly what you said, like I think a lot of us did. You know, because when you think about skincare, I mean I think about oh wow, there's a lot of science here. You know what I mean. There's a lot of stuff and there's a lot of stuff I can do topically for my skin without putting you know, injecting it with something or getting a facelift or something dramatic. You know there's a lot of like flexibility that's put into the consumer's hand when you just give them great products to work with you know, and it's just like it's a magical thing.
Speaker 1:You know, in a lot of ways, because it gives people a level of confidence. I think that we often overlook you know in a lot of ways because it gives people a level of confidence. I think that we often overlook you know. I think that there's a lot to be said about you know topical products in that way Because I think you know, obviously you go to a dermatologist, you go to your esthetician and you get these great procedures done. But what about, like you said, you know, when you come home and that maintenance part, when you're having to follow certain, like you know, just healthy routines day in and day out? By doing that you're you feel like I'm in control of my skin, I feel like I can challenge or whatever comes up. You know what I mean and that's really important to me as a consumer. And I feel like, at some point, a lot of the brands I see that are like the giant brands that go, like you know, they blow up and then they kind of like sell their souls because it's like, where did the science go?
Speaker 2:You know, like where did all the?
Speaker 1:innovation go, and that's why I think I just fell in love with when I first saw your brand and I, you know, I tried the peels, I've tried the peels, I've tried the line and I fell in love with the idea that you know what this is really something that it's not, like you said, it's not marketing. It's really digging deeper into what are the new things we've discovered on the research front and how can we apply that. Now you know, and that's something I think a lot of people are shying away from. I hate to say it, but like that, I see it every day. You know what I mean. It's like.
Speaker 2:I mean you've seen this right.
Speaker 2:There's so many brands out there, especially in skincare, that have products that have been out there for a long time and they haven't changed them and they're still.
Speaker 2:It's still like the you know, major sellers. They're like, but we know so much more, like things have improved so much, why you know it's. I think companies should be bold and let us know, like you know, there's a better way to do this and and I do think that the special thing about you know, we're a small nimble company that's really at the, you know, the beginning stages, and so we can be super nimble, we can go into it, but we have the experience and have the relationships where we know we, you know we only use FDA approved labs. We know how to actually formulate. We, you know, do all the repeat tests, repeat patch tests and heavy metal and you know all those things where we test all of our ingredients so that they're clean. I like to think about it as, like you know, we meet all these trendy things without ever thinking about being trendy, like we were clean before, like people talked about the idea of being clean. Yeah, that's just good science. Yes exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you, literally I was about to complete your sentence. That's just good science, you know, that's just good science. Yeah, like, just formulate things from like the best place possible, like you know, make sure you go like I don't understand why that's a hard concept for people to grasp nowadays, you know, it's just like if you're going to do something that is rooted in science, you have to follow the protocols, you have to do things, and the scientific method is there for a reason, and it's been proven like millennia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love the fact that consumers are really educating themselves and understanding ingredients in a deeper way, like they're educating themselves. They're learning about things. People are learning how to read inky lists on the back of ingredient list of on the bottle. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Important to know that it's not just a list of ingredients. It's how the whole formula is put together, where it's put together, how it's mixed together, where you source the ingredient. I like to think about it I bake a lot that was my other COVID thing that I did and when you think about it flour, sugar, eggs, all these things that are these basic ingredients form bed and bread and bakery items all over the world right, but it's how you put them together that give them their individual flair, texture, mouthfeel, taste, right right like a non-bread is very different than a croissant, even if they have many of the same basic ingredients.
Speaker 2:You know, ghee is different than butter. It's like how you, how you refine something, use, it makes all the difference. And so that's how I like to think about it, that you have to have the right percentage, the right source, the right ingredient and how it's all put together. And that's the beauty of chemistry.
Speaker 2:And that's how you make a better product and because my team's been doing this so long, you know, we think about everything, from the packaging, all the testing that happens. We put our testing on the website so people can see it and dive into it and see all these different things that we do. And we started out with just in addition to the peels that are for the clinician and the stuff that goes for them, on the back bar just four ingredients to start with, and those four ingredients are what we think of as being the sort of fundamental, universal things that truly are good for all melanin types. So, from the palest to the darkest skin are for all skin types, whether or not someone is acneic or dry, and these are the things that fundamentally support the health of the skin. And again, talking about training things, each one of these things supports the microbiome and they were designed that way before the idea of talking about the microbiome and the skin became sort of something that a hot popping point.
Speaker 2:But, again, it's the good science, because healthy products support the microbiome and that's why they work well, because we're controlling inflammation, and I'm thinking about that piece of it.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but no, I wanted to say like I really like that you are. This, you know thinking about the microbiome, and again, you know that's just good science, because at the end of the day, I've always found it to be so interesting how now, all of a sudden, we've had this you know emergence of these brands that are just now talking about the microbiome. The microbiome has been around as soon as you're born, you have a microbiome on your skin exactly yep, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:And also, like I wanted to mention, like the, the products for people, like just for everybody, right? So if you guys aren't going to do the peels, like the actual products you've created for you know, like the cleansing and the serum and the moisturizer, they're phenomenal because I find them to be not only really great for if you have, like you have, a pro-inflammatory kind of skin type, you know where you're always red or you're always experiencing that, but even for my skin type, I always say, you know it's, I guess it's combination or in the middle, you know some, some days I'm like red and some days I'm totally fine, you know. So I feel like they're just really balancing is that's the experience I've had using them and even starting from the cleanser and I never talk about the cleansing step ever because I just it's just not something I focus on as a consumer. But your cleanser is phenomenal, Like your.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. I have it in my shower and I use it every day because it takes everything off and your skin is not stripped, it doesn't feel dry, it doesn't feel like it's stretched out, you don't feel like you have to go through 15 serum steps to put back what you took off. You know what I mean, that even something like that it speaks volumes. Because now I feel like we've created a culture of just tricking consumers into thinking, oh no, because you did this, now you gotta go buy 10 other things because you gotta like, put it all back in now. You know that stuff like I hate that. So I just wanted to say, like even from the cleansing step, you know it's really obvious that what you've created is it's beautiful. You know it's really really well balanced.
Speaker 2:The whole line. Thank you. That is the highest compliments, because it is. I do believe the cleanser is as important as everything else. You shouldn't have to be doing a double cleanse.
Speaker 2:I know it can be fun, but I'm a mom of three kids and a practitioner all these different things, like most of us don't have time to do all that, and so the cleanser should be perfect, as it is right, and so even the amount, like we thought about, even the amount of foam it produces, the how it goes on, the texture of it, the smell of it, even and that's the reason why we named it gut filler, and I'll be honest, I believe in the. We have to take care of our mental health as much as all the other components of health, and so I actually take a moment when I wash my face in the morning and take in the scent, and I use that as a moment to think about what my intentions of the day are and, at the end of the day, washing everything off, I also think about what I'm grateful for, and just thinking about intentions and gratitude have actually been shown to what they do for one sense, contentment, happiness and joy is completely supported in the data and what that then does for overall health.
Speaker 2:So I encourage everybody for your health. You know it comes through when we're mentally healthy. It shows. You know you've seen somebody where the stress is like just it shows on the skin. Right, it is the window to our physical self as well as our soul. It is the largest organ of the body and we need to take care of it because it is. There is the brain skin connection, just as we have the gut skin connection, and so you know we do have to think about these things. And so the cleanser is gorgeous. It takes the smallest amount to actually have an effect. The sunscreen was designed to like just melt into the skin and it's yet a combination where it shows that formulation is everything because it's how it's put together that leaves that feeling that it melts in. I find men like it who are always the hardest, always second to children, basically in terms of getting the way that they feel sunscreen and the fact that my own daughter, when I was testing it, was like oh, this is my favorite ever. My eight year old just was the highest compliment. And so we chose one that, even on ebony skin, leaves no ashy color, blends in. It goes into a man's beard without catching. It is not a water resistant sunscreen or sweat resistant, because it was designed for every day. So I'm a big believer.
Speaker 2:You approach sunscreen like you do clothing. You have one thing that you wear every day. You have something else when you're going to the pool. You have something else when you're going swimming.
Speaker 2:I grew up in Honolulu and so for me, scuba diving and snorkeling in the reef is super important to me.
Speaker 2:We use different sunscreens in those situations based on what they're for, and there's no reason to put something on that you don't need. So one of the biggest tricks I always share with people is to not wear a sweat or water resistant sunscreen every day if you don't need it, because those are designed to repel water, obviously, and so they almost have like a saran wrap kind of feel on the skin and they feel terrible. Most people don't like the way they feel. So save that for when you need it on your. I want people to wear sunscreen on a daily basis, whatever their natural pigment type is, because we do know that. You know the sun does not only skin cancers, but it definitely does aging. It goes through window glass, and so you need to have that UVA, uvb filters to protect yourself, and I always say put your sunscreen next to your toothpaste, put it on in the morning when you, yep, put it on in the morning when you're brushing your teeth.
Speaker 2:It's great. For many people, our sunscreen is enough as their daily moisturizer. You know they can just do.
Speaker 1:It's really light. I was gonna say like the, the consistency and the way it goes on. It's like a serum. It's not even like a sunscreen. It doesn't feel like you're put like this, like like you were saying that's a saran wrap. I feel like that with like a lot of sunscreens, though, like the daily ones, like I even feel like that with them and it's so heavy and greasy feeling this one. None of that, like none of it. It's just like it feels like a really light water cream almost, or like a serum. That's the best way I can describe it.
Speaker 2:Thank you. That's exactly the goal, so thank you. That was exactly what we were aiming for. Is that serum like feel we're like, yeah, this is actually pleasurable to put on.
Speaker 1:It is and it feels like it, just so light and it's. It is very like you know, all in one, where I can see why you say people use it almost like a moisturizer, because it's like a water cream. That's honestly what it reminds me of, and it's like if you're somebody who, especially in the summertime months, like if you're not looking for that four or five step routine you know what I mean this is, it's enough, you know, wash your face, put on your sunscreen, you're good to go and then reapply it throughout the day. It's really really nice. Like then.
Speaker 1:I feel like this all comes back to like what you were saying earlier. Right, it's like when you really put the science first, you create solutions and I really see that in every single product in this line. Like I was gonna actually rave about the, the moisturizer in the line. It's called luster and it's really I love it, like it's one of my favorite moisturizers at this point because, again, it's lightweight and it doesn't pill and it doesn't make my makeup stick to it and it doesn't do all those annoying things that I feel like a lot of moisturizers do. Like I don't know about you, about you, dr Linder, but I don't really use like heavy moisturizers, like in the day, because I can't put anything on top of that. You know what I mean? Like-, oh yeah, I can.
Speaker 2:I find I can, even this one, the luster which I like to say. If it was so, all of our packaging has what we call no secondary cartons. They don't have all the extra paper and everything else, cause I believe the other part about science is you got to take care of the planet, which means the packaging is designed to be good for the planet. So you know, if it was like in a you know La Mer, it would be in this big heavyweight jar, that kind of cream, but instead it comes in this very simple tube so that there's not all that extra stuff. But I can even put this on top of my makeup if I'm feeling dry and I feel like I need a little bit more hydration, and it's just like a whipped melt in kind of feel. And it's got this super sexy ingredient in it called the Rose of Jericho, which is one of the resurrection plants.
Speaker 2:Those are the plants that, when they don't have access to sunlight water, they dry up and look dead and basically go into a you know a state where they're no longer yeah, it's like a hibernation state and then when they have access to those things, they bloom to life and so it's one of these active ingredients that's actually in this, that actually then has gorgeous regenerative effects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean think it's amazing, though, like it's a really good moisturizer for everybody too that's another thing Like it's not one of those because, you're right, like those big jars. I mean it's almost for me, as a consumer, gotten to a point where I really do wait till the nighttime for my moisturizer stuff. Like it's so bad to say that I do moisturize my face, don't get me wrong but like it's not with a conventional moisturizer, for the most part because of that reason, because it feels like I'm just a ball of grease you know what I mean walking around, oh, and yeah, it doesn't feel good and it's like also like through the day, like I'm always like self-conscious, like do I need to blot my face? Like, and I'm not even an oily skin type and it doesn't. It's not that I'm using like heavy moisturizers. I just feel like that moisturizing step that we have in conventional skincare routines. I feel like it's overkill on top of like a lot of the serums that we use. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So I just there's a difference between dewy and just just grease Like yeah, exactly, those are different things on my face Like yeah, and so again, it's like it goes into that same as we were talking about controlling information. It's got something goes into that same as we were talking about controlling information. It's got something called in that called redolence, which actually calms down the redness. It calms things down. It's also a great anti anything you know after any sort of treatment. It calms that down. It's all about just getting that skin to a healthier place and supporting the microbiome and just all these different components. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it, I really love it, and I think that it's just. You know, it's a really well thought out line that really shows. I mean, I feel like for anybody out there who's looking for, if you're kind of sick of your routine or all the products where you can't figure out what's going on with, you know, if you're breaking out and you don't know which product is like causing it, sometimes it's good to just get rid of whatever you're doing and try something new, and I feel like this is a really great option if you are in the market for a new line, if you're looking for one step in your routine that you just can't seem to find anywhere else. I mean, all of the products hit very hard in the sense of they're really great. Like I said, even the cleanser is like an amazing, freaking cleanser. You know what I mean. Like it's just like that for every single product.
Speaker 2:So I really recommend, like you know, in the sense of yeah, and it's a simple thing where you can, you can try just one step. You can, if you want to just like start over, you do that, and then you can bring in, you know, the the fun, sexy things that you like to do, that that bring you pleasure. I talk about, you know, skin health. It doesn't work if you're not compliant. So products should feel great when they go on your skin. That's like a baseline for us. They should be highly effective, they should be highly safe. You know, clean all these different things. But then, as you have other things that you want to individualize, you bring them into your routine. You can do something for a while and and play with it. And the one thing that we talked about, the microbiome.
Speaker 2:The one thing I really wanted to do is, like a first serum-like step was what we call a pep, because it's a hyaluronic acid that melts in, no stickiness. And then what makes it special? It's super hydrating and both a humectant as well as an occlusive, so it really protects the microbiome. That's there. It's an adaptive, which I don't know any other product on the market that currently does this where if it is hot and humid, it has an open structure to allow the skin to breathe and just takes in the amount of water that it needs. And then, if it's cold and dry, the structure of the molecules close up and it actually adds more of an occlusive. So as you're moving in and out of air conditioning, getting on a plane, whatever it may be, the product adjusts to what you need in the moment.
Speaker 2:In addition, it has small molecule, hyaluronic acid, that actually triggers your body to think that it needs to produce and absorbed to produce new hyaluronic acid. So you're actually producing some of your own hyaluronic acid, so you're plumping your skin that way. And then it has the peptide argyroline, which is the one that's been the most like Botox, right, it works on the same receptor as Botox and all the different neurotoxins. So when and studies show that when you use it twice a day, it actually reduces the fine lines and wrinkles as a result of contraction. So I think of this as my like injectable in a bottle, in addition to being my adaptogen and my greatest microbiome support. So again, so it's like the perfect little thing for healthy skin to help with. That, you know, both good for the young as well as as somebody my age I'm over 50, that sort of wants to work on keeping my skin youthful and as fine lines like the fine lines like under the eyes, especially like I don't use like I don't use really a lot of eye cream.
Speaker 1:So like this is a really great option for any of you who are starting to see like little fine lines like you could do it just in that part of your face.
Speaker 2:If you wanted to, you could use this as your eye cream exactly it's better than you'll find out there as an eye cream for the spot, because it's actually working on that contraction piece. It's there. The science is there. Like the science comes first and you want to make sure everything's bioavailable, it's stable. You know there's no just sprinkling things in to make it sound interesting. You know we call it fairy dusting right In the industry and there's no extra stuff. It's sort of. You know, sometimes I've I've had somebody talk about you know, so they're a clean line. You know they created the line because it's clean line and I looked at the ingredient list. I'm like there is so much extra stuff in this, like that's not. That's not what clean is and it's so I kind of find that it's again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I feel like more on in the industry now, because everyone's talking about clean beauty and everyone's like I need clean products. I'm like, really, why is your ingredient list like 50 things? Then that's not clean at all. I don't care if you have five thickeners in there and whatever there's, it's still stuff you have in there that shouldn't be in. You know what I mean? You don't need it. Like, you can choose better. Yeah, you can choose better.
Speaker 1:Exactly like, at the end of the day, get what you need, figure out what your skin like, what are your real, you know concerns? And I always say this like and I'm sure you can see the logic in this, dr linder, because I think in medicine we're trained to look for the chief complaint, right, I mean, that's the like, the fundamentals of medicine is like the first thing you learn. And I feel like if consumers just did that where, where you guys, you sit down, look at your face or your skin and say what is my chief complaint? Like, what am I really worried about? Let's target that one thing.
Speaker 1:And then if you figure that out and you go find the products that have the science that can fix that, that will immediately eliminate the clutter on your vanity and in your bathroom, and you know what I mean. You will save thousands of dollars by doing that, and I think that's where I really really fell in love with your products immediately, because the sign shows you know what I mean. It's really geared for solutions. It's not geared for just here's another serum, here's another moisturizer. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's not like let's add one more thing to your routine, because imagine that's the other thing is, we're not one of these large corporations that's trying to get you to buy one more thing. Right, it's about okay, what? Because I'm a consumer first, I'm a physician first and I'm having those direct relationships with people Like I would rather have somebody invest in a couple of products that really work for them. You know, put everything to the side for a bit, get their skin healthy, and we even do that around acne. You want to heal the barrier and get the skin healthy first before you actually start using many of the acne treatment. That's actually the reason why I love peel so much is. You know, I just came back from the American Academy of Dermatology and we're really pushing to limit antibiotic use. It just it needs to happen.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank God, yes, and so, and as we all know, like, the reason why antibiotics are beneficial in acne is more so for their anti-inflammatory components rather than the antibacterial component. So if you actually that's why they work quickly. So you start, if you use, you can use great skin tear to control the inflammation and get the patient going that way. That's also the reason why I adore chemical peels. In that situation I could get every person with acne getting a little peel every two weeks. Their skin would clear up so quickly and it just what it does for people's self-confidence is a game changer, and so peels are.
Speaker 2:That is the way to jumpstart taking care of acne, and I find that was also part of the reason why it was so important to us. That the peels be comfortable is because I know a teenager is not going to do something painful. It needs to be not scary, it needs to be a good experience, and then they actually ask their parents to bring them back because they see the benefit and it feels better, they look better, they know it's not a scary proposition, and so we need to be mindful of, as you said earlier, it's not just, you know, the kids that are afraid. It's adults that are afraid too. So needing to think about that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that's so fascinating. What you said, though, about the antibiotics as well, I mean I think that could be like an episode, but like I've been a huge and and please don't hate me for it, but I've been a huge advocate, especially recently, about how I think a lot of the drugs and dermatology are a little outdated at this point.
Speaker 2:Like for sure you know what I mean and I really believe that you know, because I just think that there's better options.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think it really is just about the great minds out there like yourself, you know you need to like, like people, need to trust that there are other options and then start finding those solutions and let you know people lead the way to that. And I think you know, as consumers, we're so brainwashed into thinking that, for example, like you brought up antibiotics, we're so brainwashed and thinking, no, this is I need to have to kill all those bacteria that are causing my acne. No, you don't. That's seven different things of C acnes. You know, yeah.
Speaker 2:So and as we know now, this is the story of the microbiome right it's that some part has grown out of control. We need to get that back in control. You need to have bacteria and viruses and all you know, all these different things on our skin. That's the healthy jungle that is our skin, and so it's about helping to use things that bring that back into a good place. Another cool thing that got presented at the AAD was the idea that for a healthy microbiome of the skin, you need not only to really have the skin well moisturized, you need to have ceramides in place, and having an acidic environment applied every so often brings it back into check. So chemical peels are one of the best things that people can possibly do to keep their microbiome of their skin healthy.
Speaker 1:So how long does that last? Like the effect of a peel, like in terms of the acidity and like the pH and balancing and all that. How long does that really last?
Speaker 2:I am curious about that too. Again, this was pretty fresh data so I didn't see the results of it. We know that we want to keep the pH in the skin in a certain place, but it's when you're wanting to sort of trigger an effect, I think is when it makes the most sense to acidify the skin Makes sense, okay, yeah, that's really fascinating.
Speaker 1:That's really fascinating. Well, I mean, I love what you've created with Linder Health. Dr Linder, I'm a huge fan. You know what you're doing, obviously. I mean, pca Skin was the first line. I think that was like a pro line where I was like, oh my God, my skin is actually changing. For, you know, knowing that you've been behind that, and then you know, now you're creating a brand new line that is just so efficacious, I mean I'm so thankful that you're doing this and I'm so thankful to like you out there that are really leading the way, because we need you.
Speaker 2:Thank you Well, because I'm also a surgeon and I really believe in protecting the skin from the sun. One of the things we've done is, for a very brief time, anybody who goes to the lynderhealthcom site and buys a full size product will get a full size cast away, which is the SPF 30. That's broad spectrum, full, three out size. It's like a $59 value, and so that's for anybody. And then one of the things that I just absolutely adore about your podcast is you talk about wellness as a whole. And then one of the things that I just absolutely adore about your podcast is you talk about wellness as a whole. And then one of the things we haven't talked about yet is about how you've got to also take care of sleep, proper food and nutrition, controlling stress, and so those are things that I really value as well.
Speaker 2:And so one of the things we added to the line was a product we call Calm, which is that magnesium product, and I'm so excited that people are actually starting to talk about it within the consumer space, because I've been a big believer in magnesium For any time. It keeps the whole body healthy, but it actually can help calm down the body as well, and so we added that to the line as well recently. And so, because you guys are such a holistic wellness full concept idea around skin is for your listeners If they go to lynderhealthcom, slash anarchy or just type in anarchy. If they buy a full size product as a separate promotion, they will get a full size calm for free.
Speaker 1:If I go with that, they can try yeah.
Speaker 2:So I just love how science focused you guys are yeah, I want to give you guys some gifts.
Speaker 1:That is so kind. Thank you so much. I hope you guys really avail that, please. I mean, this is like I cannot rave enough about your line and I I love that you have a supplement in there. I love that you are, you know, like advocating for use of magnesium and people's every day. I i't agree with you more and you're right. It is a whole health kind of approach. We do have to have that holistic approach to our our skin.
Speaker 1:You know, and and I really, really love it, the whole line is beautiful and for everyone listening, I really suggest you guys re-examine. You know what you're using. If you your skincare is not working for you, there's nothing wrong with you. It's probably just those products aren't right for you. So this is a great choice, this whole brand. You can pick anything from the brand. You will love it. I promise you. I've tested the product for quite some time now and I just really really suggest you guys check it out. So anyone who's curious, you can go to Linder Health, so L-I-N-D-E-R healthcom and check out the lineup, and then there's also a pro site where you can really read more about the peels if you guys want to learn more about them and you know, just understand, like the different acids that are in them. You can learn more about them as well, and we'll link everything in the notes for this podcast. But, dr Linder, thank you so much. This has been such an honor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, please, please. I'm so glad, as I love finding somebody else who's super like-minded in the geekiness, as you said, on the pro site there's all sorts of education on cellular aging, longevity, mmpi, anything geeky, I mean, whole sections on senescent cells and how it affects the skin and just anything you can geek out on. You know niacinamide and NAD, you know Anything you can imagine. That are these kind of cutting edge thought processes. That's what we're interested in too, and that's where we're going in terms of controlling senescence and pigmentation, and we have so many new interesting things coming down the line that I don't think there's anything else like there out there.
Speaker 1:So the things that I. That's so cool, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that you put the knowledge out there as well. That's so important. I think that actually really speaks to what you're creating here. You know it's not. There's no marketing here, guys. This is the real deal. You know, this is science. So I really encourage you, go read, you know, read up on your science and read up on all the cool stuff. I mean that's really cool, dr Linder, that you have that the education.
Speaker 2:Yep, and we in the summer we'll be having a product come out that actually works on a home care basis for senescent cells as well as hyperpigmentation and just cellular aging overall, and that's going to be called luminary and wow, and the whole idea is that it's multifactorial, it does multiple things, so you're not having to have nine different, you know, bottles on the side of your table because at some point you start layering all it on on there. You just it doesn't feel good, right and it doesn't work they're Right and they're not designed to go together.
Speaker 1:And then the PAs interact with each other and no, it doesn't work. And it's not it's. It's basically like what is it? I don't know if this is a rule or not in dermatology, but isn't it like after the first or second layer max, like stuff stops working, like nothing's going to get through? I mean, you're piling just stuff on at that point, you know, and it's never going to touch your skin. So I don't know. I feel like a lot of that is. Also, I have a huge issue with brands that have like 80 products I mean for one thing, but no, that's really exciting.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I was going to say the one takeaway people can take from that is always apply in general your rule, your product thinnest to thickest, right, and that will increase your chance of things absorbing interesting.
Speaker 1:So I guess, yeah, because I think people do always wonder about like serums and like the heavier moisturizers, like where do I, you know, put this? But that makes sense. I mean, I guess the whole goal is just expose yourselves to this stuff, you know. Expose it to the actual, the formula.
Speaker 2:That's what you want and then just choose the right products for your skin you know, just because something works for your friend doesn't mean it should work for you. Just because it's like the thing that's trending on tiktok doesn't mean it's the right thing either yeah, just like science.
Speaker 1:It's not a. Your skin is not a trend, guys like I couldn't agree more like it's. It's like you know, we talk about the microbiome. We talked about it here. That's not. Your microbiome is not the same as your, like siblings, it's not it's like a fingerprint you know what I mean. Like it's like your fingerprint, that is your microbiome. So if anybody tells you otherwise, they're lying to you.
Speaker 2:Like don't, don't do and don't forget yeah, eat more fiber. It's the best thing you can do for your gut microbiome, and there is that gut skin health coordination. So eat more fiber. That's like another good little takeaway. Eat fiber wear your sunscreen and drink lots of water. I love that, and sleep and sleep.
Speaker 1:I ranked the last one sleep, make sure you sleep, I think, yeah, there's a lot of studies now coming out about that too, so I'm happy to see that you know people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the reason we did. Honestly, that's why we made calm. Dr Vakovich and I did basically made it for ourselves during COVID, because she and I both struggled with sleep and this was what we made for our own personal use. And then I had enough people sort of like asked me about it. They were like, well, like, why not add a supplement to a skincare line? It's like if you're controlling stress and you're helping with sleep, it's really great for the skin. So that's how it happened.
Speaker 1:I love that and I'm glad you put it in there. We need that. I mean it's. I think people are coming around, though. You know. I think people are coming around to the understanding that it's holistic and you have to really think about what's missing in my life. You know what I mean. If you're always stressed out, don't ask why you're getting acne. You're stressed out, your cortisol levels are through the roof, you have a bunch of stuff going on. So it is about holistic. You know it can't be just target pimples and that's it. You know we're done.
Speaker 1:Like that's not how it works.
Speaker 2:You've got to take kind of take care of your mind, body and then it. You know, our skin is the window.
Speaker 1:So Exactly Well. Thank you so much, dr Linder. This has been such an honor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really have enjoyed speaking with you today. Likewise, thank you.