Unwasted Pain
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we delve into the depths of human experience and explore the intricacies of unwasted pain. In our podcast, "Unwasted Pain," we tackle the universal yet often misunderstood topic of pain and provide insights, support, and guidance for those seeking to navigate the challenges it presents.
Unwasted Pain
Finding Hope in the Hardships of Life Pt.2
Note: Chris and Karin share a deeply personal story with us with the loss of a brother. While we do want to be sensitive, our Father says we should never grieve alone.
We pray through sharing listening today, anyone with devastating loss / triggers, you will be able to hear the Conlee's story of the unexpected loss of his brother, working through the grieving process with his entire family from the age of 8, you will also be able to embrace healing and hope in the face of paralyzing tragedy.
Today, the Conlees dig into how we can allow God to speak into our defining moments. You’ll also hear about the importance of community and friends; to allow them to love you well during trying times, allow God to love on you through the blessings of family, friendships and gentle loving kindness found in the small actions around you. We pray you leave encouraged to find healing and hope where you are today.
Hello and welcome to Unwasted Pain. This is Karen Conlee and I'm sitting here with Chris Conlee and this is episode two. So thank you so much if you watched episode one and I hope that that started to lay a foundation of really kind of the direction we're going throughout the duration of this podcast. But there's probably nothing that people share more in common than pain. It is a part of the human experience and we can't live in this fallen, broken world and not experience pain. But I really think the question is and one of the reasons why you wanted to offer this podcast is because the question is how do you deal with adversity, how do you deal with pain in your life? And so, chris, I know we gave kind of an overarching story and we even have thunder in the background.
Karin:As a sound effect as we're recording this for the doom and gloom of pain in your life.
Karin:We couldn't have timed that better if we wanted to, but, in all seriousness, we kind of laid the foundation last week and then in these next couple of episodes this will evolve over time we'll have guests and different people who can speak to different ways that they have overcome adversity and overcome pain, adding your own personal story.
Karin:One of the reasons you wanted to do this particular topic and theme for a podcast is because you have experienced a lot of adversity and, by God's kindness, you have been able to see God in the midst of that, and so today we thought we would really kind of look at the topic of tragedy and in the context of maybe somebody has lost a loved one, whether that be through a long journey of illness or, in your case, it was sudden and unexpected with the loss of your brother and so maybe just to give us a little bit of a context of that part of your story, I know the Love Works documentary. If you haven't checked that out, it will be on YouTube at the Vision Video Channel starting Father's Day 2023. And it is explained in greater detail there. But for the sake of this podcast, just maybe give us a little bit of what that phase and that part of your life looked like when your brother died.
Chris:Yeah, and when we talk about tragedy, I remember very early when God called us to ministry, I naively thought, well, that's just something that happens every now and then. And I wish that were true. But unfortunately, what I've learned through 25 plus years of ministry and the larger that a church becomes, or the larger your ministry becomes, there's just more people that are in the circulation of your life and you just realize that, unfortunately, tragedy happens every day to somebody. And so, instead of us thinking that we're just going to be lucky enough in life to avoid tragedy, we have to learn you know how to work through tragedy and how to grieve when we need to grieve, and and you know how to help others overcome tragedy.
Chris:But one of the things that I think our culture has done and I think this is accidental and stuff, but like we've allowed tragedy to kind of take a permanent hold in our life that you know, once we experience a loss in some way, it feels like we've kind of given up on healing and on our ability to be overcomers and we hang on to that loss in such a way that actually the past becomes paralyzing.
Chris:And so you know, I think it's important whether you've had personal tragedy or not, or let's just call it adversity. You know tragedy is a strong word or crisis, you know, whatever that might be, whether you've had that or not, all of us are going to experience some level of adversity, some level of crisis and at some point because you know, it is appointed unto us once to die, you know, like the loss of loved ones that's going to happen. We need to talk about this in such a way that we're not devastated and we don't grieve as people without hope, but rather we grieve with healing in mind and with hope in front of us.
Karin:It's interesting that you said that, because I do see there's this. Sometimes you know something happens and it's like it's true you know you were never the same again, but that doesn't mean that you can't heal and be an even stronger person. There is. I don't want to minimize the pain, but I just thought, as you were saying, that you're right.
Karin:Sometimes it's like that becomes a wound that never heals, and yet, at the same time, I think the other, maybe parallel, unhealthy track of our culture is also like you just box it up and it's like that happened and we're not going to talk it about again and I'm going to just move forward as if it didn't happen and so like there's got to be a healthy way. That's not forgetting that it happened and also not carrying with it with you forever. That, I think, is what I have seen you experience and why, though, you have gone through more than most people share of adversity that you're able to be as healthy as you are and you're able to help other people, because it wasn't we forgot about it and it wasn't. It's going to be with me forever and I'm never going to be okay.
Chris:Well, and what's important, remember let's take the example of losing my brother in a car train accident. Just to set the stage for that for a moment, he was 18 years old, eight years older than me. I was 10 years old. It was probably, in all probability, the best day of his life, because he was aspiring college golfer and this was his senior year in high school and he just shot 64 in a high school golf match and was, you know, riding on cloud nine and was coming to tell my dad and I, and on the way to see us, there is this tragic collision with a train that takes his life in. The greatest day becomes the last day, but it was a day that it wasn't just a tragedy to me Sometimes that's what we've got to remember it was a devastating tragedy to my dad, to my mom, to my sister. It was a tragedy to his close friends. It was a tragedy to, you know, just even a community.
Chris:And so there's times that everyone processes that a little bit different and, depending on how each person processes, it honestly depends on whether that person remains hurt or whether that person is healed, whether or not. You know, the enemy uses this tragedy, you know, to set someone even further back, you know, or whether or not God's allowed to heal and redeem that, restore that and actually propel someone forward. And so, when we think about these tragedies, we're never supposed to grieve alone. And oftentimes what happens when you know a crisis hits, adversity hits, we retreat and we actually start secluding ourselves and we begin to grieve alone, and that's incredibly unhealthy. We were never meant to grieve alone.
Chris:I think a beautiful picture of that is. It even talks about that there will be a day when God wipes every tear from our eyes, that that he is close when we are experiencing loss, and not only is he close, but he wants other loved ones and friends to be close. And so I think maybe the first step to grieving is we have to, even though we're devastated by the loss, we have to somehow, some way, actually believe that there is a God. And this is where the confusion sets in, you know, because people say how can a good God allow something like this happen? Well, he created a perfect world. Unfortunately, through us choosing sin, we allowed it to become imperfect, and then, in that imperfection, there are things like unexpected crisis, unexpected tragedy that happens. He didn't will that to happen, but he is. He cares more than we care, and he is there to heal us, and he is there to begin to restore in every way possible.
Karin:So, chris, I'm just thinking about people watching this and the different dynamics that exist. Maybe you could speak to the fact that you were 10. And so it's a little bit of a different dynamic to be obviously a mother losing a son, or even an adult losing a sibling For somebody. That maybe, again, the thing that I think ministry teaches you is, even with the example of your brother, that day, everybody else's world continued on Like people were probably frustrated that they couldn't get across the railroad tracks because there was an accident there. Like how many times do we in our own life like, ah, that's such an inconvenience, and but for somebody in a traffic accident?
Karin:obviously is my example for somebody. Their entire life changed in that moment and so it happens all the time. What would you say to someone that maybe, in that context of a child that loses somebody, and what were the nuances that you now, looking back as an adult, would say, okay, this is, this is what I wish somebody knew about my situation so that they can maybe be that person and be that help to another family that's lost someone?
Chris:I would say it's important to validate every feeling that someone's having, but just try to point their feelings to God, where ultimately they're looking to God as a caregiver, as someone who cares about their feelings. And so even in that situation, you know as a child, of just impossibility to comprehend the magnitude of the loss. You know you just can't even potentially believe that this is real, that this actually happened. You go into a level of shock and then you hear everyone else just talking about. You know how can this be and how unfair is this, and and why does something like this happen? And why do bad things happen to good people? And and all of those are legitimate, but especially as a child.
Chris:But I think anyone needs some help thinking about this from a God centered perspective versus just a man centered perspective, meaning that I'm only looking at it from my perspective. And so, like one of the things I would say is okay, if you're angry, be angry. But even in your anger, turn it to God and say would you just help me process my anger? Would you help me get it all out so that now you can do some healing? Would you help me go through every range of emotion, but I'm still coming to Him with it. So you know, I would just say that sometimes, if people are even misunderstanding and they blame it on God, they'll want to actually turn from God. And I would say God is a good enough God, a big enough God that he can handle your questions, he can handle all the uncertainties, he can handle all the anger, and so just, whatever you do, don't run from Him. Run to Him and bring every bit of emotion to Him.
Karin:Okay. So, as you're saying that, I'm thinking about the well-intentioned Christian that walks into a situation. Now, most of the time and I know just you've taught me this so many times when hard things happen, people just step away, not because they don't care, but because they don't know what to say. And so I would just want to encourage you that, when tragedy strikes anybody, even if it's not your tightest circle because even in your tightest circle there will be people who don't know what to say and you would think which step forward, but might not so, even if it's a secondary circle, be the person that moves towards them and be the person that you don't have to have the right answer, but move towards them so they know they're not alone.
Karin:But, as I say that, I would love for you to maybe speak to how to avoid maybe being super spiritual in those moments, like you know God is good and we did that last time, but like God brings all things together for good to those who love Him, like that's not what you want to hear in the heat of your pain or the height of your pain, right.
Chris:In those moments, the greatest ministry you can give someone is just the gift of your presence. Just be present. Some people have greater degrees of empathy than others and but I would say that when there's that level of pain, just honestly try to feel what they're feeling. Don't try to change their feelings, just feel with them and then don't try to feel, don't be a theologian in the moment and don't try to have all the answers, but then just the thing. The security comes when you are trying to think about it theologically.
Chris:And he's a good, good father, and if you can just put everything in the context of what would a good father want to do, how would a good father approach this situation this moment? How would a good father care for his or her child in this moment? And so in that I just I would say it's critical to say less, to empathize more, to hurt with someone, to serve someone, just to help meet their needs and to just simply be present with them. Sometimes, honestly, it's the gift of distraction, you know, sometimes you can talk about other things and just help relieve their mind. One of my favorite moments of Mark, our son, is that there was and I mean he was probably only 10 or so at this time. But there was a family in our church that had lost their father or was in the process of potentially losing their father in this moment, and we would go up to the hospital late at night to visit. And one night he asked if he could go with us and I said, you know, yeah, but like, why do you want to go?
Karin:I think it was New Year's Eve, if I remember correctly. You're right, yeah.
Chris:And as a 10-year-old he said I know I can make them laugh and like, even in grieving, like what a gift is laughter, you know? So there's just these intangibles in these human moments. Humanize the moment. Just be with someone in that moment.
Karin:I love that and I even think about at the time that your brother did die, that you had a niece who had recently been born, and that your mom mentioned that even having a child around just reminding the circles of life, and that, yes, there is tragedy but there's new life, and that there was something that provided incredible hope and even just to have a reason to get up in the morning and take care of a child was a gift.
Chris:Honestly. You know Tricia is Arnease's name and the gift that she was to our family in that moment is immeasurable. You know just the ability to actually love on a child and to you know, have a place for your heart to attach and connect in that moment of loss was extraordinary.
Karin:Before we kind of turn the conversation just a little bit, the one other thing that I thought of as you were sitting here of, like, what do you say in those hard moments with people and you know if you've been in those situations and you're the one who's walked through tragedy, you think what do I wish people had said?
Karin:Or maybe people did come around you and love you. Well in that. But I think in that you know, not be a theologian but point people to God, I think the thing that I have found that has brings the most peace is just for people to know that. You know God's heart breaks with you. You know that he didn't want that loved one to have to suffer. He didn't want that death. He created life and, as you mentioned before, you know sickness and disease. That was not in the Garden of Eden, that was not what he designed us to have to experience, and so that separation breaks his heart and I think in those moments when there's just absolute mass confusion in the point of tragedy or trauma, it's just reminding people like, no, he actually hurts with you, right?
Chris:So and I would say in those moments, you know, oftentimes I just tell people listen, I'm here to listen whatever you want to talk about, and if you have questions, sometimes there are answers, and, honestly, sometimes there's just not answers. You know, not on this side of heaven, even in the lack of answers, there still is the comfort of a Heavenly Father, of a God that has put his plan in place by sending his son to die for us so that all of us can be healed through the resurrection, but that in this moment, I just want to simply be whatever you need me to be.
Karin:So, chris, as we think about your experience, that is 40 years ago, yeah, and it absolutely the loss of your brother, and you know he was more of a father figure to you than he was just a brother, so there were some dynamics there that made that loss even.
Chris:Kind of a double impact.
Karin:Yeah, but as you look back now and just looking back and reflecting of how did you respond, and then just through seasons of life, what would you maybe want to highlight for us so that people know okay, maybe something happened a while back and it's still causing me issues in other ways in my life. What has that sequence been and what would you be able to say to help someone so that the pain that they've gone through is also wasted in their life?
Chris:Yeah, so sometimes the responses and especially in my particular situation, only being 10 years old you're responding in ways that are kind of involuntary. You know there are ways that you do certain things not knowing whether it's the right thing or not, but you are just somehow some way trying to understand it, trying to deal with it and like for me I mean this is remarkable to me when I think back upon it. But shortly after Bubba's death I asked my parents if I can move out of my room into history and there was just something that was just trying to be closer to it and there was aspects of that that were good. But, honestly, there were aspects of that that weren't so good for me, because I stepped into this room that had this huge trophy case with all of his accomplishments and I began to not knowing this at the time, but really feel the pressure to in many ways become my brother into, kind of be my brother's substitute or replacement, and to try to become as good at golf as he was to help heal some of those wounds.
Chris:And there were some aspects of that that, honestly, were incredibly helpful because it gave me something to focus on and something that kind of drove me, but as I matured in life, there was other aspects of that that created a performance identity, that created a lot of pressure, and then, in the middle of that, what was difficult is when a family has a tragedy. My parents were doing their own grieving, so it was difficult for them to actually be able to be there for me as a child, to be there for my sister, because they're equally devastated, and so I think there's this is when you need extended family. This is when you need family friends, close friends. This is why it's so important for us to truly love people well and build quality relationships so that we can be there for one another, because in many regards, you know that pain was too heavy and too great for my parents to carry at that time and then know how to help me in the midst of it.
Karin:Chris, I know just statistically for parents that lose a child.
Chris:Under the age of 18, especially.
Karin:Yeah, the chance of divorce in that Sky rockets. Yeah, and it's and it is. It's that picture of people grieving separately and in some ways that it's almost easier to just kind of, you know, allow yourself to not focus on the family unit that was. And so, as somebody who walked through that, if there's somebody listening today that maybe knows a family that's lost a child, or they themselves have lost a child, what would you say from your experience would be the things that you would say you know, if I could go back and help my mom or dad again, if there was a different dynamic that could have transpired, because they did, they had their own grief and that did leave you trying to figure it out for yourself in some ways, what are the things that you feel like could have helped in that moment?
Chris:Well, this is why it's really important to be healthy before the crisis comes, because there was already great instability and there was already some dysfunction. So it's hard to go from dysfunction to function in the midst of a tragedy. It's hard to go from unhealthy to healthy in the midst of a tragedy. But given that's where we were, I do remember, you know, our pastor came and visited and I'm sure tried his best to be what he could be in that moment, but I don't know that we reciprocated. You know that we were mostly kind of Christmas slash Easter Christians, but in that moment I think what would have been a game changer is if our family would have finally said we can't do this and we have got to have help and therefore we're going to turn to God, we're going to turn to God's family, we're going to ask for all the help imaginable. We're going to try to.
Chris:You know, let people minister to us. One of the things that people don't actually do well is receive To actually let people come alongside of you for a season, invest in you and, you know, meet your needs. There's something about our independence and something about not wanting to inconvenience people that we actually limit the love, the amount of love that we can receive and the practical. You know ways that people can help, and so I think that's where, whether you're currently plugged into a church or not, if there's ever a time to run to God, to run to God's people in this moment, it's the moment where you dig God the most, and then it needs to be sustained.
Karin:Chris, as you're saying that, I think about the phrase that you talk about adults don't change until it costs them too much not to change.
Karin:So I think you know it would be fantastic for us to say you know you should be, you know, strengthen your walk with God and strengthen your relationships with your families and strengthen your you know all the things. So you have those healthy roots and that deep structure. Obviously we believe that. But to say that to people like because you know someday you're going to experience tragedy, for most people doesn't motivate them, like they're going to do the same thing until they get to that moment. So maybe in this, in this context, I would add maybe to what you said as the family of God, as people come into your space, that might not be healthy and maybe they are coming because they have experienced a tragedy, I think our tendency is to back away pretty fast, like oh, they said they didn't need anything or hey, they didn't even return my call. I mean, you know they must, they must not, they must have other people helping them.
Chris:We always say this call me if you need me. And you know that person's juggling everything, trying to survive, trying to keep their head above water, and now we're putting the burden on them to call us if we need them. This is where we need to, of course, politely, appropriately, but there's times you just need to show up. There's times you just need to go the extra mile. There's times you need to do things and serve in ways and offer help, even when they don't think they need it. They actually need it. And then there's times you just need to risk calling too much. You need to risk over communicating instead of under communicating, and you just need to say listen, we're just going to be here with you and this is something that the Jewish people have understood this maybe greater than any other people group throughout history.
Chris:We see this through Jewish traditions and writings. We see it in different ways, through the biblical account, but the Jews, when someone passed away, would send someone. They would not send someone, they would send several people with them that were mourners. They would stay with them for 30 days, like literally. You know, continue to come to, continue to be present, continue to serve, continue to meet those needs, to listen and you know what that means. It means they understand the magnitude of the loss of a loved one and they understand the value of life, and they understand that, honestly, god never intended for any of us to ever have to suffer through death. And so then, after the 30 days, they would have another group of people that would follow up and check in on them over the course of a year.
Chris:Because every time you experience a new season of life you know summer, you know fall, spring, winter without a loved one, you grieve in a different way. Every time you experience a holiday without a loved one, you grieve in a new and fresh way. And so, again, we have condensed grieving into, you know, a one to two week period, into a quick funeral service. But grieving is an ongoing process. One of the things that you have done beautifully throughout our ministry experience is, when someone loses a loved one, you put it on your calendar and then you consistently follow up with those people months later and then on those anniversary dates, and it's just something that is that touch of I'm thinking about you, I care about you, I'm here for you, I love you. How can I serve you?
Karin:So, chris, as we kind of maybe turn a little bit from just the, the actual grief and tragedy and the immediate, I know that there's a lot that you talked about. There's a lot packed into the hey, I tried to become my brother and his substitute, and some of that was good, to have something to focus on and some of it wasn't.
Karin:Maybe let's talk a little bit about that identity piece and that that can be the identity piece relates. That doesn't mean you have to have had a tragedy. Identity is something that I think is one of the ways the enemy loves to just get us down and distract us and keep us from being who God created us to be. But maybe speak a little bit into just how that particular tragedy impacted your identity.
Chris:Thank you. Yeah, I would say when I think back upon it, the impact upon my identity is greater than I've ever been able to comprehend. That in many regards, I've been trying to deal with that every day, every month, every year. In certain ways, I remember just very strategically like getting some pretty in-depth and intense counseling, like from 2005 to 2007. My brother passed away in 1981. But it shaped who I was. It shaped my orientation to life. Then did another intensive of counseling from 2010 to 2012. Did some more counseling 2018, 2019, because there are certain events that are triggers that actually will take me back to the original crisis.
Chris:There are additional things in life that it's a different set of circumstances, it's a different type of adversity, but it will trigger me. It triggered me to honestly try to be the savior for my family by trying to become the golfer that my brother was and be a better golfer than my brother was, and to win more golf tournaments than my brother won. That was trying to honestly heal my dad's pain. It was also trying to overcome a little bit of a family dynamic of we were the blue collar person that didn't have the education that everyone else had. That was an underdog that had a little bit of a chip on our shoulder. We just had to work harder to prove ourselves. There were those dynamics that this tragedy it fueled, those dynamics that were already present more.
Karin:One of the things that I maybe as a question back to you. We're definitely in the boat of being proactive. You mentioned just the different points of triggers. There was that there was also just different stages of life that we were going through because it was like, okay, now we have children of our own, how do we make sure that we are as healthy as we can be moving forward? In reality, you didn't really have any professional help or anyone even of just a biblical wise person in your life from 10 to 20. Is that accurate?
Chris:Yeah, but it's where God intervened. I remember very quickly after my brother's death, pastor came to the house, explained everything, explained salvation to me, and I made the decision. Intellectually, I don't know that I fully understood that decision. When a pastor comes and your brother's passed away and my brother had trusted Christ about a year and a half before and I'm more thankful for that than words can truly articulate For me it was well, I mean yes, of course, I mean my brother's now gone to heaven. I want to go to heaven. Who doesn't want to go to heaven? No one wants to go to hell. Yes, I'm going to believe, but in the midst of all of the dynamics that were going on in that moment, I don't know that I fully understood.
Chris:It wasn't until I was 15 years old and literally God used my brother again because the church where he attended was moving out of the sanctuary and literally you know how people would put their Bibles right there where the hymnals are. He had left his Bible there and, instead of it being lost and found when they were moving the sanctuary, someone actually opened it up, saw his name and it found his Bible. Called our family and I'll never forget that. I went up to the church and I got the Bible and I sat down with back pew and I opened it up just to see, like was there anything that he had ever written in there? And literally the first page I opened it up on is, like Colossians, chapter three, and it says set your mind on the things above and not the things of this earth. And he had a star by it and said my favorite verse, you can't make this stuff up. And then my assumption is someone told the pastor that they had found the Bible, that I had come up there, and then the pastor told the student pastor and then the student pastor called me a week or two later and then I went to summer camp and it was the first time I'd ever been on a summer camp, you know, with a church, and it was there that I truly learned and understood what it meant to place my faith in Jesus and from there I initiated a relationship, or I should say, maybe God initiated the relationship with me and I was.
Chris:There was a summer before my freshman year in high school and then, reluctantly, I was kind of kicking and screaming about this. I didn't want this to happen. I was planning on going to Germantown High School. But my parents sent me to a Christian private school and so that helped. Honestly, it probably helped just in the sense of the culture and you know just.
Chris:But I remember the first time I took Bible in ninth grade, first semester, I literally made a 46 in Bible and the teacher came to me and was like how, in the world I mean, no one makes a 46 in Bible. All these like how did you make a 46 in Bible? And I was like what are you talking about? It's the first time I've ever opened this book in my life. I didn't grow up in this school, you know I was kind of adversarial about it and stuff. And he kind of figured it out in the moment, was like oh gosh, he's right. He said, well, I'll tell you what I can help you, I can come alongside of you, we'll get this grade up, that kind of thing.
Chris:But I was always, in my experience, there a little bit on the outside, just because I didn't grow up in that environment, but I would say kind of the you know again, not having a lot of direct guidance In that season, I more learned what not to do instead of what to do, and so my Christianity started to be based upon the don'ts instead of the do's, and it was like you were defining yourself by I don't do A, I don't do B, I don't do C versus no. What does it mean to truly love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind and strength? What does it mean to truly love one another versus just be moral and don't do bad things?
Karin:Well, Chris, I think one of the my takeaways in thinking of somebody that's watching this is don't wait 10 years. Yeah, yeah.
Karin:You know the it is normal to need somebody to help you process through pain, and so as a child, you didn't necessarily have the wherewithal to know you needed it, and as your family was grieving, they didn't necessarily that wasn't something that was kind of familiar to them either. And so, just if you, if you're struggling, why not get help so that you can be fully free and fully healthy? Chris, as we kind of think about the, the remaining time that we have, one of the things that you gave me some notes you were talking about hurt, loss and anger. Walk us through a little bit. How people would would see that in the context of this and take something away helpful for their life.
Chris:Yeah. So here's the thing Every person in life is going to experience hurt at different intervals of life. You cannot live your life good enough, well enough to avoid the fallen nature of this world, the the different pains, problems and pains that exist in this world, and so what we've got to do is we've got to normalize that hurt exist. Okay, but when you have some level of adversity, some trial, some test, some crisis or tragedy, and it brings hurt into your life, the reason why it hurts is because you just lost something. But in this moment, who are you going to turn to to define the hurt and to define the loss? And so a lot of times, what happens is when that hurt occurs. There's kind of this opportunity there where God is always present in it. He wants to be there for us, he wants to do everything he possibly can to relieve the hurt as soon as possible, to heal us as soon as possible, to redeem, to restore as soon as possible.
Chris:But the enemy is also there to accuse. The enemy is the accuser of the brethren, so the first thing he's going to do is accuse God. God is not a good God to let these kind of things happen, but God didn't create these kind of things. These things happen because sin entered the world, because man chose to disobey God, and so he's going to accuse God that he's not a good God. And then he's going to accuse you that maybe you did something wrong or maybe someone did you wrong.
Chris:And when that happens, if we're not careful, we're going to allow the enemy, the liar, the accuser of the brethren, to define the defining moment. Who do you allow to define the defining moment? Either God's going to define that moment or the liar's going to define that moment. Either it's going to be defined by the one who is truth or defined by the one who is falsehood. And so in that now listen, it's okay to validate the feelings that it hurt I'm all day long. I want to like we can give God our pain. We are supposed to come alongside of one another and love one another in such a way that we help people feel the pain, overcome the pain.
Chris:But then, when it comes to the loss, if you allow the liar, the enemy, to define the moment, the loss is permanent and it only gets worse. And he is ruthless. He comes to still kill and destroy, and so he's going to take your weakest moment and he's going to wound you in an even greater way and he's going to cause you to be stuck in the past. But if you turn to God to define the moment and we want to again not only validate feelings but validate loss you did lose something, but what you lost can be redeemed, both in the present tense, in this life, but also can be redeemed in the life to come. Okay, and so in this, what good does it? Do you to allow the liar to define the moment? See, that's how brilliant he is as a liar that he actually causes us to blame the one who is good and causes us to become the victim in such a way that we lose sight of the one who gave us the victory.
Karin:That's wasted pain.
Chris:That is wasted pain, 100% wasted pain. But if we will turn to God in this moment, then we begin to see that healing emerges, sometimes comprehensive, like dramatic healing right there in the moment. Sometimes it just emerges, sometimes it's the first step of healing, sometimes it's the second step of healing. There are times there are dramatic moments of healing, there are times that it's progressive, but at least healing emerges. When healing emerges, hope emerges. And when you have hope that there is.
Chris:And this is where, instead of using the Romans 828 in a way that is kind of a cliche and we just kind of put it as this little pat answer over every problem, now we can say no, wait a second. There is truly a God who causes all things to work together for good to those that love him. And I much rather trust that he exists and trust that that is true than have no hope whatsoever. And so in that, real quick. If we have the hurt and we have the loss and we're allowing the liar, the enemy, to define it instead of God, the loss turns into anger. And when the loss turns into anger, guess what? We're angry at God. Now we're angry at others. We can even be angry at ourselves, and angry people are rarely loving people and it's a type of self-destruction and it fulfills that the enemy came to still kill and destroy.
Karin:Well, I don't know that I've thought about it in that way, but a lot of times you can see people that you don't really understand the source, like where does that anger come from? And I think in a lot of ways we have to be people of empathy and, instead of being offended when we run across somebody that comes across angry, to know that there's probably a source to that anger that they may not even recognize.
Chris:Well, and that's where I would say, like there's certain things biblically that we just need to keep on the forefront of our heart and mind, but especially in the midst of problems and pain. Maybe these are, in that regard, the two most important words. Time and time again, scripture says fear not Now. What happens in the midst of crisis? We fear. What happens in the midst of tragedy? We fear. But he says time and time again fear not, fear is not from God. All right, perfect love drives out fear, cast out fear, and we can legitimize the emotion or the feeling of fear, but we then need to confront it and overcome it by saying no, there is one greater than the fear. All right, you know Jesus is asleep in the boat, but you can wake him up and he will calm the storm. So the storm is a legitimate storm, but there is one greater than the storm. And so, in that way and this is where even these moments you mentioned this earlier these moments shape our identity. All right, part of some people, their identity, is they are fearful, they're fearful of everything, they're intimidated, they're overwhelmed, they're afraid of something going wrong.
Chris:Versus. There are people who say wait a second, though there's a lot of pain. In this world, though there's a lot of problems, ultimately I have some level of security, some level of safety that God is my heavenly Father and that's going to create an identity that's more secure than insecure. And when I have a secure identity, that secure identity turns into a new internal dialogue, and my internal dialogue will begin to define everything about myself, and it will begin to define everything about the way I walk through the crisis and walk in and overcome the crisis and allow this crisis that's now in the past tense to actually propel me forward, actually take tragedy and turn it into triumph. And in that way it is so important.
Chris:Do we speak words of life or death? And what we've got to do is we've got to learn in our worst moment there's one speaking life to us. In our worst moments, what we've got to do is be secure instead of insecure, and in that moment we have to take ownership upon ourselves to no longer speak victim language, but speak overcomer language. We are overcomers, we are victors in this, and then those words we use, I promise you those words will advance us, they will heal us and they will get us to the other side.
Karin:Well, I can think about a lot of helpful tools in terms of internal dialogue that we hopefully will bring through this podcast.
Karin:So thank you for just kind of peeling the layers back and just how you walk through it.
Karin:We hope that this will be helpful for you. Whether this is something that you look back historically and you've experienced a tragedy, or maybe there's somebody that you love, that this might be a helpful tool to say, no matter when it has happened or what has happened, there is a God who is one of healing and restoration, and so we want every single person on this earth to be able to say that whatever has happened to them is unwaisted pain and that God has used it for good in your life. So thank you so much for joining us for this second episode. Really want to encourage you if you have not gone and checked out the LoveWorks documentary. It's a story of healing and hope. You can go to the YouTube channel for a vision video and see it starting Father's Day. You can also go to loveworksdocumentarycom, where Chris also has not only access to the documentary for free but also some accompanying resources. So we will see you next time and hope you guys come back. And for episode three,