Unwasted Pain
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we delve into the depths of human experience and explore the intricacies of unwasted pain. In our podcast, "Unwasted Pain," we tackle the universal yet often misunderstood topic of pain and provide insights, support, and guidance for those seeking to navigate the challenges it presents.
Unwasted Pain
Navigating the Storm: A Journey of Loss, Forgiveness, and Renewal
Imagine the ground crumbling beneath you as you both lose your jobs on the same day. That's what happened to us five years ago. It was a sudden and shocking experience, and we found ourselves in the midst of chaos. Join us as we share how we navigated through that crisis, shouldered the pain, and embraced the power of forgiveness.
In the end, it was the power of forgiveness and faith that emerged as our life jacket in the sea of uncertainty. We discovered the potent healing power the church can offer and how starting over in a new city can be a fresh start. We realized that even in the worst circumstances, God has a plan. It was our faith and spiritual armor that provided us with the strength to face the storm and rise above it. As we share our story, we hope to encourage those going through similar situations to find their beacon of hope and strength. Remember, no storm lasts forever.
Hello and welcome back to Unwasted Pain. This is Karin Conlee, with Chris Conlee here, and thank you so much for catching this podcast. Whether you're running, driving, whatever you're doing, our hope is that this will be a resource that will help you.
Karin Conlee:Life is complicated and it's not all mountaintops. There's plenty of valleys, and I think really just the heart of this podcast is to take what we've learned from both our mountaintops and our valleys, but more especially the valleys, because that tends to be when we learn the most. And our hope is that if you have a challenge, whether now or in the future, these will be some tools and some things that you can apply to your own journey, so that, in the same way that our hope and our prayer is that anything painful that we've gone through won't be wasted and that there will be something useful from that. So, chris, you know my memory is bad, but I think the last place that we left off, we had talked about just that place at which you were fired and you were fired and, in a weird way, I was fired too. So we were both fired, which I don't know. Maybe an advanced planning don't be hired at the same place.
Karin Conlee:Maybe that's, maybe, that's one takeaway from this whole podcast is like separate employment might be helpful, but we kind of left, I believe, at a place where we were talking about like that day.
Karin Conlee:But as we talk about how this might be a useful story for someone else, I think we want to also kind of unpack the next few days and just kind of that next season, that what happens after the bottom falls, you know, or the sky falls, whatever it was all falling, and so for us, you leave a meeting on a Sunday afternoon, two days before, I guess, tuesday, our daughter and I were going to get on a plane and fly to her college orientation. So it's the middle of the summer, this is before fall, freshman year starts, and we were on our way. And so maybe, just to start with, I know I was having a lot of thoughts and emotions go through my mind and even as that phone call came, you were just talking to me and you're like, even in that moment when you got that call, as a mom you were already thinking about, ok, what do we need to do or not do?
Chris Conlee:Yeah, and I would just say, to add just a little bit more context, it's officially been five years since June 24th, where we both lost our jobs, and that was an unexpected situation.
Chris Conlee:We never walked into that meeting believing that was going to happen or anything like that. I had a whole plan on how to move forward but walked out in a state of disbelief, shock, battling every emotion imaginable, didn't know quite how to tell you, Didn't want to tell you over the phone but at the same time because didn't want the kids to, didn't know if they were home or not, and in just those dynamics just kind of felt like needed just a little bit of a moment to process with you and even strategize with you, just depending on what those dynamics were going to be with the kids. And so I called you and just told you kind of the hardest news that I think we've ever received, and it was news that it still felt surreal and in many ways, you know, didn't feel like a final statement. We, you know there was a part of us that thought surely somehow another, this will work itself out.
Chris Conlee:But yet at the same time, because you know so much apparently had already kind of happened behind our backs that there was just this I'll just never forget just calling you and just saying I don't know how to tell you this, but I was just released as the lead pastor of High Point Church and I remember very vividly, you know, responded with your own disbelief and immediately just kind of lost for words and trying to figure out what to say. But what came rushing to the forefront of your mind was well, we can't talk about this right now because Anika's got college orientation and the last thing in the world I want to do is have her be devastated going into college orientation or have her carry in this burden. This is not her burden to carry in and it was just such a moment where, okay, something of this magnitude happens and basically all of life comes to this crashing halt, but yet life still goes on.
Karin Conlee:As you say, that I mean it's interesting. I don't know interesting is the right word, but it's like. I so remember the feeling of that phone call, but I don't remember the specific words. But I'm just wondering if, for a moment, as we kind of break this into maybe two questions, but with some hindsight now and even maybe in the moment, if there's a spouse listening to this right now, none of us expect we're going to receive bad news ever, but also there's not really a lot in life that teaches you what to do when it does happen, because you're not planning on bad things happening.
Karin Conlee:Most of us, besides a fire drill, we don't really prepare for many bad things to happen. When I walked through that, what would you have wanted me to say or do when you were like I was at a loss for words? If you could go back and replay that and somebody that maybe has a spouse in a hard situation, that maybe their job is in question and their layoffs at their company or whatever the case may be, what would you have hoped to have heard? What can someone say in that moment as the person closest to you? What are those things that you would just say were helpful or that would have been helpful?
Chris Conlee:There's honestly nothing helpful in that moment. It's kind of like what do you say to someone who's just lost their loved one? You try to just be present, you try to just empathize, you try to just say I'm sorry and you just try to say I'm going to be here with you through it.
Karin Conlee:Don't try to fix it, because you can't.
Chris Conlee:Yes, but in this particular situation you did activate in a way that you were fixing a potential problem by protecting our daughter. I very much agree with that and was grateful for that when you brought to my attention that wait a second, we can't talk about this when we get home, because tomorrow Anna and I are going to get on a plane and we're going to fly to her college. I agreed with that whole heartedly, but it didn't make it. Though I agreed, it still made it just like almost like robotic.
Karin Conlee:The next, because it was a Sunday afternoon or evening and we left Tuesday morning. I do remember it being a very long 24 hours because it felt like in some ways, we were living a lie, but in the sense that we were just trying to hold it to and getting on the airplane with her and flying into a new city knowing this as well.
Chris Conlee:So we had pre-planned that on the other side of her orientation, we were going to have a family vacation Immediately. You and I compartmentalized and you were trying to figure out how to protect, slash, help Annika, yet Mark was going to come with me. Y'all were going to fly, then Mark and I were going to drive and Mark was going to bring his girlfriend at the time on the trip. I had to call Mark and actually tell Mark on the phone and let him know immediately so that he could process whether or not he wanted his girlfriend to still come on that trip. I remember you guys leave and then Mark and his girlfriend did arrive and now we're going to take an eight hour drive together, not knowing how much of that I should process with him and then in the presence of his girlfriend or not.
Chris Conlee:It was just one of those convergence of circumstances where it's kind of like we had to turn it on autopilot and in many ways it's kind of like. In some ways and I'm not necessarily recommending this, I'm just telling the story it's like you're the Tin man. You don't have a heart per se, you're pushing pause on your heart in all of your emotions and you're just trying to suppress all of your feelings for the sake of protecting those whom you love the most.
Karin Conlee:Maybe speak to like, as you're telling the story. I know that for us that was like, okay, we're going to protect Onika so that she cannot we use the term in our house you know that's a suitcase too heavy for you to carry and that would be something that we would just like our kids didn't need to know about all of our finances. They didn't need to know, like, there's just some things that you don't want to burden children with. That's why you're the adults and the parents. You're to protect them and some of those things weigh heavy on them. What would you say in terms of that parallel of protecting your children, but also where your own heart does come in, like, how would you to someone else going through a crisis that's going to impact their children that's, you know whether it's financial or relational or whatever the case may be what would you say is that parallel track of being the parent, but also the healing you need to do in order for you to be a healthy parent?
Chris Conlee:You know there are times when it's important for your children to see you hurt. You know to it's not healthy to never cry. It's important to you know, learn how to work through your emotions, even as an adult, and for them to see because more is caught than it is taught you know, for them to see what is a responsible way to do, that where, yes, you're a real person with real feelings, with real hurts, and even how do you deal with God in a time of disappointment, in a time that doesn't make sense. And so I believe there are things that our children have learned over the past five years that are some of the most significant lessons they will ever have learned from us, by observing and watching how we responded, both in what we did and didn't do. You know, one of the things that we teach is that my response is my responsibility and that our response is either going to be a part of the solution or part of the problem.
Chris Conlee:And you know, in this particular situation, I do think it's important, and I think our generation, and maybe even our culture, has forgotten this. Some we've become so me-centric, so feeling-centric and so validating the feelings and there is an appropriate time and place for that, that we also forget just how important it is to lead through a situation and that you know moms and dads, at the end of the day, are leaders and that what we've got to do is lead in such a way that we protect our children, provide as much peace as possible in a situation where there wasn't peace, and yet know that there will be other moments along the way where we can be vulnerable and we can share from the depths of our heart in a time where the emotions aren't completely, you know, at peak height. You know of intensity and there is a better place and a better time to learn. You know to talk about what we're learning through the experience.
Karin Conlee:Chris, one of the other things just as you're talking about that, I would say and I there's not any part of us that's saying that we did this perfectly like we, like you, just you're just doing the best that you can.
Karin Conlee:I think in the context of a crisis, that's all you can expect from anyone, is the best they can.
Karin Conlee:But I do think one of the things and it really honestly was what kind of determined the next step for us and for us, it was that in our situation, it was very public and so for us, I think maybe two things and maybe that you can address this, we, I think people need to be careful who they let into the decision-making influence, the influence in those moments, because there are some people that can be totally on your side and for you, that want to fight for you and that want to that almost kind of fan the flame of. You know, I'm thinking about the Heinz-Fiet and Heinz places, self-pity, like the character of self-pity of like this isn't fair and you, you know and you should do X, y and Z and they love you, but they may like. I just feel like there needs to be in those crises a huge element of self-control and that even people you love may not be helping you, even though they are supporting you. What would, what would you say, just in that element?
Chris Conlee:of, I would say, context is everything that there are biblical truths that could have been very appropriate applications for us. You know, in this particular situation about how to respond and and you know some of those truths would be something like okay, you know, I mean it's time that you need to speak the truth and love. You know you need to speak to, you know authority here, or you need to expose something wrong and you need to try to make it right, or you know you need to fight. There is a time that there is. You know you fight the good fight, you need to be strong and courageous, those kind of things.
Karin Conlee:Truth will set you free.
Chris Conlee:Yeah.
Karin Conlee:You could take a lot of these out of context.
Chris Conlee:And yet for us, very opposite of what had been my history and kind of my temperament, god was just telling me to submit and was telling me that, you know, he gave me this phrase invite, don't fight. Invite people to follow you but don't fight them. And everything about my upbringing was more of a fighter's mentality, and so I would just say, yes, what you're saying about kind of who you let in in that circle but really you know, this is what's so difficult about a crisis is you need to cultivate that long before the crisis ever happens. You know you've got to cultivate trusted relationships and part of this is in this whole unwaisted pain concept is just for people to know that. You know this is a fallen, broken world and that you're either coming out of a crisis you know, you know healing from a crisis or, unfortunately, you know, maybe preparing for a crisis, you know or unexpectedly going to be surprised by a crisis, and that happens. But I would just say, like for us in that particular situation and you know Mark's girlfriend was there and that was outside of our family, but you know she was great, respectful and you know, a source of comfort to market that moment and time.
Chris Conlee:But what I'll never forget is we did have a time just with our family once we arrived at the hotel and you know, we were in one of the hotel rooms and we just told Annika, together, and she was sitting next to Mark and she just began to cry and she just leaned into kind of his shoulder and his chest and he just put his arm around her and there was just this moment that that brother and sister, there was no one else in the world that knew what they were going through, but the two of them and no one else could relate. You know people say, well, I mean, your dad lost his job. It's not that. It's just so much different when it's something that you're pastoring people and you're proclaiming that you're family and you're saying that you know we exist to prove love works and that we're a perfect place for imperfect people and we offer compassion without compromise and we're full of grace and mercy. And yet in that moment we didn't feel like any of that was shown to us and it felt, especially to our kids, just the ultimate hypocrisy.
Chris Conlee:Yet there's the four of us and this is why family is so important. You know, it's that old saying that blood is thicker than water, that like we had to get through this together. Now I will say this there are, you know, about 10 different people that have played a significant role in truly coming alongside of us, believing in us, staying with us, loving us, praying for us, blessing us, encouraging us that I don't know how in the world we would have made it without them. All right, they are truly people whom I will forever be grateful to, and they are people who, I believe, will lay crowns at the feet of Jesus in extraordinary ways, because their acts of kindness to us helped us heal to be restored for the future, ways that we will continue to serve the Lord, the way people be impacted through us. But when I go back to that moment in that hotel, if you don't stay together as the family, it's harder for other people to even be family, to you.
Karin Conlee:You know, chris, when I think about that and I think about you know how does that? Why does that matter to anyone else outside of our family? A couple different things go through my mind. One is you mentioned the 10 people that you know. They held our arms up when we couldn't even hold our own arms up. You know they were there for us, and I think one of the things that you taught me through our journey was we just had to keep focusing on the people that were showing up.
Karin Conlee:That if we had just spent our time looking at the people that either we felt like had caused this pain, or the people that we thought would come and be there for us that weren't there for us, or you know, just when things get out, people don't know how to react in a crisis and, like when somebody dies, think people that you think would be right there.
Karin Conlee:Sometimes they get scared, they don't know what to say, they don't know what to do and everybody's like, wow, I'm a I really wasn't that close of a friend, I'm not really in the inner circle, I don't know that they would want me there right now, and so it's like your inner circle gets really small and I would just say in the context of this that, yeah, there can be a lot of bad things happening, but if you just keep looking at those, it is not going to help.
Karin Conlee:You get to the other side that you have got to choose. And there were days that I couldn't see beyond the hard parts and you would be like, yeah, but so and so showed up, you know so, and so sent an email, so and so you know, you know, and there were days where, like you, were staring at the pain and I would have to be like, okay, but at least this. And so I just would encourage people that, just in that, it is all about your perspective and if you're going through something together, it helps you to. You know you're not going to always feel like looking at the positive, but if somebody else who's there with you can it, does it helps.
Chris Conlee:The easiest thing in the world is when you're hurting and you feel like you've been wronged, is for you to respond in a way that makes the problem worse, makes the problem bigger, and then you ultimately become the problem. And so it was important for us. We felt like it was such a unique set of circumstances that, in order for God to redeem this long term, in order for us to have restoration long term, it was so important for us to not become the problem. And you know, honestly, I can't begin to tell you how much I wanted to fight and how much I wanted to vocalize in all the ways that I would like to try to make a wrong right, but in that those things ultimately would have taken whatever the poison was that occurred on the outside and begin to drip it into the inside of my heart. And so what I had to do, what you had to do, is we had to say, okay, none of this makes sense, and so let's just turn to the only one who can make it make sense, which is obviously the Lord.
Chris Conlee:But that was a long game. You know, that wasn't a quick solution, and somehow another of the Lord gave us the wisdom to discern that we may have to play the long game with this, but it's much better than the cost of bitterness, you know, because one of the things I can truly say in this is he protected us in that way that forgiveness is a term that sometimes the power of the word forgiveness is loss, because we use the term so frequently and it's something that we almost use it like I'm sorry and given the magnitude of what took place. You know, when you take forgiveness from something that's generic and you begin to try to apply it to specific people, then it becomes very personalized and you have to really ask yourself, you know, am I truly forgiving this person in such a way that I release them from this offense, I release them from this debt that has kind of been created, and not necessarily because they deserve it, but just because God has released me, because God has forgiven me.
Karin Conlee:I know there's a lot in the area of forgiveness that I think is really important to this whole podcast. Honestly, I think that's a huge part of the healing, for whatever pain somebody walks through, if there's somebody else involved you're going to probably have to know and navigate the forgiveness piece in order to get to the other side. But maybe there's two things that you just said that I think maybe, when I think back, are kind of stepping stones before someone gets to forgiveness, and one of those is you talked about hearing from God, and I know in our particular case we decided to honestly step out of the city where we were, out of Memphis, because we felt like we needed to hear from the Lord and because we felt like it would be difficult to hear from Him in a place where we were relatively visible. The story was very visible. There were the public parts and the private parts. We just could not figure any way to engage with people. That was going to be healthy, and so for us it was a physical. We literally moved to Atlanta.
Karin Conlee:But that's not every situation. That's like a very small I mean most people when crisis happens, you don't have to move. But that piece about hearing from the Lord. What would you say to somebody? Just in that, you're right, like it certainly helped that we had roots and we had spiritual disciplines and we had a walk with the Lord. That helped us to hear from Him in those moments. But he's a Father, he wants to. You know, even if people find themselves in a crisis and, man, they sure wish they had cultivated their walk with the Lord, but they didn't and they haven't, and they're still in the middle of a valley right now. What would you say in terms of like, what does that look like?
Chris Conlee:or what would in there in a different way Sometimes and listen. God does speak through people, so let me give that as a pretext to what I'm about to say. But sometimes, when we say that we need to hear from the Lord or seek the Lord, we're seeking an opinion from others that we either agree with or that just kind of gives us permission to do what we want to do. And in this particular situation I was receiving a lot of wise counsel and there were very godly respect to people, people whom today I still seek wise counsel, and they would give chapter and verse and some would say you know, honestly, given the set of circumstances and what's happened, really believe that this is injustice and that you know you would be. I don't know that you would be splitting the church, but it really is. You know, in the way that you've led and the way that you've pastored it, it's kind of in this way, your church, you should just start your own church and it will resolve itself and work itself out. And then there would be other people that would be on the other side of the equation and I was getting literally people that could give chapter and verse on both directions and I just needed to hear from the Lord himself really through scripture. There are times that again, I want to affirm that God speaks through people and I want to affirm getting wise counsel.
Chris Conlee:But there's other times there's just a different level of confidence and authority that just comes when you just go to the scripture. You're reading the scripture and the spirit of God just causes something to jump right out of the scripture, be highlighted to you, and then it's it's. You know, a lot of times you know people refer to this as like a rama word. It's like a word that's just spoken kind of directly to you. You know from the scripture and you just know that's an anchor you can hold on to. And you know, while we were in this storm, we needed an anchor. And you know Genesis, chapter 50, I think it's verse 21,. It might be verse 20. It's the story of Joseph. It says what man intended for evil, god will use for good. That was one of those anchors, and there were just so many other anchors along the way.
Chris Conlee:But I think what I would encourage people to do and sometimes this is a weird dynamic that when you're in the crisis, you know you should turn to God, you know you should turn to the scripture. But even there's a part of you that at times may even resist it and you're just, you're just so agitated and anxious and frustrated that you, just, you don't know. You know where you need to turn, but there's a part of you resisting turning there. And I would just say, as hard as it is, those are those times where many, many times, between just being in the Word and then literally not only just getting on my knees to pray, like laying face down to pray, you know, going for prayer walks, just trying to get into a place where I could just, you know, quiet all the other noise and just hear from the Lord, was absolutely essential.
Karin Conlee:I might just add to that gosh. I mean I do. There is definitely a sense in a sense of shock and a sense of even just coming to God and being like I can't even pray. Like I'm here, like I usually come here and I usually have a lot to say, but I'm like literally so in shock as to what happened that I just don't even know, I don't know what it is. But you're right, like when you say that I'm like I do remember that and I would just maybe encourage people that like for me I think it was Psalm 121.
Karin Conlee:Like I just I just found a few passages that were really the like I would just pray them out loud, I would just, I would just keep, I would just keep saying them, I would just keep, I would just like, lord, I don't, I'm just going to sit here at your feet and so, even if you feel like you don't have anything to say or anything, or you're just overwhelmed, sometimes it is just finding that that passage of hope, that passage of peace, that passage of desperation, like it's OK, like wherever you are and you've used this illustration a lot, but, like you know, you can beat on his chest, it doesn't matter if you're angry at him or you're, you have nothing to say, or it just you're just coming to him, and there is something in just coming to him, whether you got a lot to give him or nothing to give him.
Chris Conlee:Well, and one of these verses that I had memorized and I was having trouble remembering it right here in the moment 1 Peter, chapter five, verse 10. And after you have suffered a little while and again, that's very debatable, that's the probably the part of this verse that I like the least and after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself Notice the personalization of this, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen and establish you and I. This is definitely been a anchor. It is definitely been a verse that I took as a personal promise from God and in that way you know, you said earlier that we chose to move out of Memphis. We were always hoping to come back to Memphis, we were always had a sense that we would finish what we started. But at the same time, you know, like it was just.
Chris Conlee:Not only was it painful, but in order to not be a part of the problem, we need to remove ourselves from the city. Because, you know, sometimes I call it the sin of silence Someone would ask us something about it and then, if you don't say something, then the assumption can be worse than what actually took place. You know, whether it be on our behalf or their behalf, and you just are in a no win situation and it's not a win for the people who are asking, it's not a win for you trying to answer. And it was Right. And so it was just a situation where we just discerned and just said, you know, the best way for us to hear the voice of God, the best way for us not to be a part of the problem, the best way for us to, you know, trying to discern what was next, is just to have a season where we were outside of Memphis and then let God speak.
Chris Conlee:We weren't going to come back to Memphis on our own initiative. We were asking the Lord, send us anywhere. If, for some reason, this season has ended and this is, you know, a detour that we didn't expect, that's going to end in a different direction that we didn't expect, then we'll trust you with that. But kind of what we've seen happen in that process is that he took us many places, but I think every single one of the places he took us and every experience he gave us was to build into us, to actually come back in that restoration, to truly complete what he had started and to do it in a way that maybe we're more prepared, more equipped and have more of understanding, experience and counter with the Holy Spirit to know how to truly bring the revival and spiritual awakening that we believe God's always called us to.
Karin Conlee:So, chris, in two things that as you're talking on that, we've talked about the long game a few times and I think you know, if you are someone who's applied us to whatever trial or tribulation that you're going through right now, I think one of the things that is maybe helpful when you're in a crisis is if you can in some ways, you almost have to If you start asking those why am I on this planet? Kind of questions, which is what happens in a crisis like God, are you real? You know you don't. It's easy to say that you have faith when everything's going fine, so it's like, as believers, we can walk with God for a long time and be, you know, good Christians for a long time, but in some ways, you're never really tested until you go through a crisis.
Karin Conlee:So what is the point in believing? Like, do I really believe all these things that I've prayed and said for all of these years, or do I not? Because this is the time that I'm going to stand on this and in some ways, for me, it was this all or nothing. I either believe it or I don't, and I'm choosing to believe and in that way, there's something that, if you can elevate yourself, above, above your circumstance, and in us, for us, because we're in the ministry.
Karin Conlee:We were like we don't want to disqualify ourselves, but I think that's true for everybody that, like, at the end of the day, god, you have allowed this to happen, and the best way for me to glorify you is how I handle this. I can't change this, but something about at the end of the day, lord, can I just say that I didn't and some days it was I didn't do anything that would have dishonored you. Today, when we were angry, when we were sad, when we like, when there were moments we could have lashed out, I don't know, there's just something about that. I don't know if there's anything you add to that, but just in playing the long game and not becoming the problem, I think you just have to go. We're not.
Chris Conlee:We're not on this planet for our agenda and for our life, and there's something bigger, and so Well, I do think that's an incredible guiding principle in the midst of a crisis is that you know when you are hurting, you want it to be about you, and somehow another in this God kept elevating our eyes and saying I care about you, I'm here for you, you know, I'm available to you, but I'm also doing something bigger than you, beyond you, but I'm doing something with you, and you know, in many regards I've put you back on the potter's will and I'm molding and shaping you through this moment. Will you allow me to do that? And so it required a lot of surrender, because, you know, your pride gets involved, and especially when you know you're being misrepresented or there's stories being told that are inaccurate or aren't the truth, you want to defend yourself, and so I would just say, you know, there was that sense of we've got to let the Lord defend us. I think it's Exodus 14, verse 14, where it says only be silent and let the Lord fight for you. You know, and there were times that the hardest thing in the world was to be silent and to entrust him to actually fight for us. And that's where I would say you know, in those day to day decisions, honestly, it was a decision of. It may be a small step, but if I can submit myself to him today, if I can get myself to believe today in who he is, in his bigger picture, to believe that he truly is a God that causes all things to work together for good to those that love him, then it's a step forward. It's a step into the future, not a step backwards, not a step into the past, and in that way I keep coming back to this.
Chris Conlee:But forgiveness was the catalyst to propel us into the future instead of lock us into the past. You know, forgiveness was the key to freedom. That if we had chosen unforgiveness in that moment, then by choosing unforgiveness, honestly, you choose bitterness. By choosing unforgiveness, you know you choose, you give yourself permission to begin to get angry and, to you know, be frustrated. And then, when those things happen rarely, you know, scripture tells us you can be angry and sin, not okay. Rarely do we actually do that. Most of the time, when we are angry, we send a lot, not, not. And so I just would say there were daily victories. And then there was these deposits of hope along the way, in just ways that he would allow himself to be visible, to be seen and then to let us know that he saw us. And there was just these moments that just enabled us to press on.
Karin Conlee:Chris, I want you to maybe elaborate a little bit more because I think it's. I think sometimes in the world of forgiveness, we it can be a battle and for people, and I think sometimes people lose the cost of unforgiveness. But one thing, as you, it may be shift gears and talk a little bit about that bitterness piece, just to help people maybe step back and realize, like you're choosing not to forgive, what is it costing you? But one thing I would say, just to encourage anyone and again, everybody goes through crises in a different stage of life and stuff, so this doesn't apply to everybody. But I would just say, if you are in a crisis and you do have children and not I mean, our children were 18 and 19. So it's not like they were young, but it's still applied even at that age and it definitely applies younger, for sure, and I would even argue, older.
Karin Conlee:But as much as there were times that we felt devastated that we couldn't protect our kids from all of this and that was our biggest desire was like if I could do anything about about what happened to us, it would have been that that our kids wouldn't have experienced it. But in in hindsight, looking at it five years in the rearview mirror. I, our kids, have said they learned more from us in this last five years than their entire childhood. And so what?
Karin Conlee:What you might be just dying on the inside as a mom or a dad, that, whether it's divorce or it's a job loss or something that's creating instability for your children in your home, don't count it as loss, like, don't count it as failure, as, like you know, but just know you, this is actually your opportunity to teach your kids more than you ever could in success, and in that way, it's not as much of a loss for me as that. Maybe you felt like at the time that I felt like we lost so much and there was so much damage that happened and there was loss and there was damage and we can't, we can't fix that for our kids. But I do think that in hindsight, even though they're still on their healing journey and it's not a perfect world and we can't weigh the wand and we can't make people that we love better, and their own journey is their own journey but I would say, don't lose hope. You actually may be making the biggest deposits of your life as a mom or a dad.
Chris Conlee:Yeah, because I would say sometimes we don't really know what we've been protected from until we really look at how bad it could have gotten. It could have become so much worse. You know. So like, if you take that concept of unforgiveness is a choice, and really, if you choose unforgiveness, that is really much worse than the initial hurt. And I want to read this for just a second, because I think it's important to know that God protects you from in order to know what he frees you into. And so like being offended.
Chris Conlee:If we take it this whole concept of unforgiveness, being offended only makes it worse. All right, holding a grudge only makes it worse. Bitterness only makes it worse. Anger only makes it worse. Resentment only makes it worse. Unforgiveness is taking the poison but expecting someone else to die.
Chris Conlee:And when I think about where our kids are today and honestly I hope this is true, I hope there are, whether it's current or former, high pointers that listen to this and just other people that I hope these things help everyone heal. But one of the things that I am confident of is these things did not get a foothold in our life and because they didn't get a foothold in our life, we were protected from so much more pain that could have existed In many regards. You know, both of our kids made fairly wise choices all through college and yet sometimes, when you hurt people, go, make even worse choices and suffer worse consequences. So I just would say to anyone going through a crisis find Christ in the crisis, trust Him in the crisis, run to Him, don't run from Him. Don't allow the enemy to tell lies about God.
Chris Conlee:Where you begin to doubt, you begin to question God and you retreat from God. If anything, it's in this moment that you need to have complete and total trust in who he is, that not only does he care about you, but he actually can control, in His sovereign ways, circumstances to actually work together for good to those that love Him. And so there's so much more to say, but sometimes we just got to keep it one foot in front of the other, and especially in a crisis. One of the things that I would say is trust the sowing and reaping process. You're going to reap what you sow, and so in your lowest moment, in your most difficult moment, just keep sowing faithfulness and he will be faithful, and in that you'll see a new harvest. Now it takes time, but you'll see a new harvest.
Karin Conlee:Chris, I think, as we're kind of wrapped this particular episode up and we think about just kind of that journey and I know one of the things that we've talked about is not all crises are quick, most of them aren't, and so we'll, in some future episodes, talk about kind of the some of the future stages of that of our journey, because I think they represent future stages of just navigating the process of healing Is there anything that you would say, just thinking about that maybe initial season, that initial frame in the beginning of a crisis, in those first few weeks, that maybe we didn't hit on today? Anything that you would say for somebody, regardless of what the type of crisis is, that would be kind of your parting comments for today.
Chris Conlee:It is necessary, on a practical level, just to do the things that keep your world functioning, and so, even if you need people to come help you do that. It is necessary to not let other things break down in the midst of the breakdown. And so you want to try to, you know, honestly, give attention to the practical. You need some of the distractions of the practical, but at the same time you need really not only, like we've said yes go to the Lord, spend time truly in the Word, spend time in prayer, and that sounds so like almost like a spiritual band-aid, and I truly don't mean it that way. I mean like to counteract all the other noise in your mind, to protect yourself from all the other thoughts that are, you know, invading your mind, attacking your mind. You really have to guard your mind, you have to guard your heart, and so I would just say there's a really strong part of this that you know, if you take kind of the spiritual warfare type principles, you need to put the armor on, and you know, in doing so, you know to guard, to protect, you know just to not get further injured, okay, and not to allow yourself to, even with your own thinking and your own statements and your own kind of repeating of negativity to injure yourself. And so there needs to be that part of I mean, I can't begin to tell you how many times I've done this, god I don't have it in me. Protect me, god. I can't do this. Protect me, god. I need you to do what I can't do right now. Protect me and then, honestly, you were a huge source of protection. You would guard and protect me and there'd be ways I try to guard and protect you, and then there'd be ways we try to guard and protect our kids. But then you do need some trusted friends, you need some outside voices or, honestly, you kind of go crazy. You know you need a little perspective and so, like you need some people that just honestly, would just be on your side. Like there is a time and place to evaluate and you know what went right, what went wrong, what could you learn from this, what could you have done differently.
Chris Conlee:There's a time and a place for Monday morning quarterbacking, but typically in the first three months that's not it. You know we need to know how to grieve, we need to know how to survive, we need to know how to figure out what's next, and in that we just need some people to love us, because right now we're not feeling loved. Right now we're feeling attacked. Right now there's an overwhelming sense of uncertainty. And so, in the midst of all the uncertainty, how do you begin to find certainty?
Chris Conlee:And that's why, again, not trying to put a spiritual bandaid, but I've got to keep coming back to the one who's the most certain. And the only way I can find certainty in the midst of uncertainty is through these places where God speaks, because, ultimately, I think one of my definitions of faith has actually been forged through this experience. Faith is having certainty in the midst of uncertainty. You have faith in the one who is certain in his word. That is certain. And now you know what to do, even though you may not know how to do it, and you may not know how you're going to get to the other side, but somehow, some way, that faith is going to be the thing that is most certain when everything else is less certain.
Karin Conlee:Well, and I can't agree with you more on a practical level, because there's just so many thoughts and so much pain. That's easy to just get in this internal dialogue. You know, worship music, podcasts, like just there was times that I just wasn't going to be able to focus and read. And I know, as we've worked with people who've lost loved ones, like people hand them books and they're like you know, I mean in that early days sometimes it's just even hard to do that. So it might be just something audio you can just play it, so that it's it gives you something to distract. But it's a good thing that distracts. It's something that can just put good in your mind and help you to think on what's true and pure and noble and excellent. So, just in a very practical way, that I know is something as well.
Karin Conlee:And you know, in the ways that you know you said, the enemy wants to tell you lies about you and lies about God. On the very rare circumstance a natural disaster you're pointing your finger at God. Most of the time when you're in a crisis, you've been disappointed by people and so it's like okay, if you're just shaking and wondering like, can I trust God? You've already just had. You know, people have just proven themselves that they are not certain. So, man, if you're a believer, or you've never been a believer, I would just tell you bank on you know, bank on him and keep your you know. Just hold tight to him If you can find Christ in the crisis. Hold on white knuckled if you have to, but just don't let go.
Chris Conlee:Part of what made this especially hard and this is weird to say in this particular context, because our whole crisis is that we were the pastor and then we were no longer asked to be the pastor is that we didn't have our church to run to. And so I would say to anyone else like please go to your leadership, please go to people, be vulnerable enough to say I need help and allow the church to become a safe place. And I know different people and I know lots of stories. Unfortunately, people talk about church hurt, and that's extremely unfortunate, but don't allow that to cause you to give up on the ways that God can use the church to heal.
Karin Conlee:Well, we hope that this episode of Unwasted Pain has been helpful for you, that there are nuggets that you will take and apply to your life. Join us next time. We're going to talk about our crazy journey of leaving Memphis, our home, our community, and starting over, and all the crazy turns that it took before we landed in Atlanta, and I think there'll be some more great truths that will help you in your life. So I hope you'll join us next time again at Unwasted Pain.