Unwasted Pain
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we delve into the depths of human experience and explore the intricacies of unwasted pain. In our podcast, "Unwasted Pain," we tackle the universal yet often misunderstood topic of pain and provide insights, support, and guidance for those seeking to navigate the challenges it presents.
Unwasted Pain
Pain into Purpose
Have you ever wondered how you can turn your pain into purpose, your trials into triumph? This is the question that we want to explore with you. We share our personal experiences of moving from Memphis to Atlanta during a challenging season and how we leaned on God's guidance, especially when making life-altering decisions. We learned that the key lies not in just solving issues, but in managing the tension they bring. This episode is as much about our story as it is about our children's, as we had to balance our own healing with their needs.
Imagine if we told you that seeking professional help in times of trauma is not a sign of weakness, but a step towards healing. That's exactly what we discovered on our journey. Our experience with counseling, particularly with counselors versed in spiritual matters, taught us the role spirituality plays in the healing process. We're here to encourage you to not just 'tough it out', but to seek guidance from professionals and the divine. We share our own experiences to highlight the significance of this approach.
What if forgiveness is more than just a spiritual act? What if it's a path to freedom? Join us as we unravel the transformative power of forgiveness, diving into the concept of 'changing the way we remember' rather than forgetting. We also explore how triggers from the past can be used by God to accelerate healing and how receiving and extending forgiveness can open the door to experiencing God's overwhelming love. With a look at God's healing power and personalized care, this episode ends on a positive note, reminding listeners that in every trial, there's an opportunity for growth and healing.
Hello and welcome to Unwasted Pain. I'm Karen Conlee here with Chris Conlee and thank you so much for joining us on this journey, if you have not been keeping up with us. We're really kind of laying the foundation in these first several podcasts and, chris, I know, as you've designed this podcast, it will ebb and flow, different people, different interviews, different topics over the journey of this podcast. But as kind of the foundation, we're just using a little bit of our own personal example or our own story and the things that we've learned, with the hope that anybody who's going through any type of hardship will be able to take application to their own set of circumstances. And we sure didn't do it perfectly, but God taught us a lot and we just want to be able to help people that are going through tough times.
Chris Conlee:Well, and even the concept of unwaisted pain. If, depending on how you orient yourself to that, you might think I don't know. I mean, I don't want to listen to that, or I don't know if that's negative, I don't know that. I want to revisit that. Actually, the fact that it's unwaisted takes it from something that's negative to positive, something that's hopeless to hopeful, and it really causes us to see that God cares about every pain, really doesn't want us to experience pain, and then he wants to give us peace to get through it, but also he wants to give us some promises to see what's on the other side.
Karin Conlee:And Chris, I know we use this phrase all the time. I'm not sure you started it, it's your fault, but you talk about it it's a tension to manage, not a problem to solve. And so even that kind of in this podcast of if you're going through something hard, you don't want people to like sugarcoat it and act like, oh well, it wasn't hard for us and if you just pray a little bit more, it'll all be okay. So there's that tension of not wanting to be super spiritual about it and to be real, but also to, if you are in a hard place, to know there's hope. And so, just in that, as we share our story I know I think the last time, in the last episode, we kind of ended with our season in Memphis coming to an end and we discerned that the best thing that we could do in the middle of a storm that we would have never expected, that we needed to be still, we needed to get away and we needed to know that we were hearing from the Lord, that there was a lot of noise, there's a lot of confusion, there was a lot of opinions, there were a lot of people that loved us and it was just a hard season, but for us, we discerned we needed to step away from Memphis. You know, fortunately for most people their crisis isn't quite as public as ours was. There certainly are more public than ours was, but it felt public, and so for us to leave the city and go somewhere that we felt like still kept some of God's promises available and within reach, but also was far enough away from the noise to be able to hear from the Lord.
Karin Conlee:So we packed up, we headed to Atlanta, georgia. That was halfway between our two kids, which was important, I think, just as you were going through a crisis and I don't know. I think a lot of times, as we just celebrated your mom's 82nd birthday and she talked about her herself being an orphan, and I think about times when, even in the grief of her losing your brother, that there were times as a child, you felt like you had to figure out grieving on your own because she was in her own pain. When I think about if there's anything I could say to somebody who's going through pain, who has children, is you have to somehow compartmentalize your pain enough to make sure that your children get what they need, and so that was really probably half of the reason we were in Atlanta. It was the physical location between our two. And then, in our particular case, if you want to, elaborate.
Chris Conlee:You talked about being in the middle of our two children. Our son was at the University of Alabama, and that was if we were going to be in Atlanta, three and a half hours away. Our daughter was at Furman University, which was two and a half hours north of Atlanta. And then Atlanta was also a place where God had done significant work in our life on many different occasions that we had seen God use influential people there. We had seen God speak significant words into our life there.
Chris Conlee:And then, on a more recent level, one of the things that we felt like God was really doing through us in the city of Memphis was playing a role with many of the great individuals in the area of racial reconciliation, and we had the privilege of being connected to Dr Bernie say King and the work that she does in the King Center does, and so we wanted to try as much as we could to protect some of the work that God had been doing and believed that that work in some ways had been attacked but that we wanted to see that work restored.
Chris Conlee:And then there were other opportunities for us there to be involved in consulting and you know, consulting kind of in the Christian business world, helping with business leaders, and we were incredibly grateful for that opportunity. So those are the things that kind of placed us in Atlanta for a season. But we always viewed it to be a season and kind of a step of transition and we were always hoping in many regards, that God would bring us back to Memphis. But we were also very open handed, saying God, you know, we never expected this. Therefore, you know what's next.
Karin Conlee:So, chris, when I think about that particular season, you know, it's almost it kind of parallels, like when somebody passes away, there's this flurry of activity immediately after, and then after the funeral, and after everybody's come to visit, there's this, there's this lull when you're still living in the reality of the loss. This is obviously very different. But there was kind of the season of wow, we had a lot of flurry of activity. And then we're like yes, we were going to Atlanta.
Chris Conlee:and then we get to Atlanta and it's like okay, like this is well we went from literally our entire lives being about people surrounding with people more people than we could possibly minister to to being in a city of maybe my guess is 7 million and we know less than 10 people there well enough to actually call and connect with and go do something.
Karin Conlee:So in that a couple of different areas. But I know one of the things kind of early in that journey, you know we had been we knew that the level of pain that we were walking through we didn't. We wanted to not be foolish and think like, oh, we're just going to, you know, get over this real easily. That we wanted to make sure that the, the enemy didn't get a foothold, that we, we healed, that we you know it's kind of like do the surgery, don't just put the bandaid on it. We'd rather do the surgery now than risk infection later. And so with that we were connected and went and did some pretty significant intensive counseling. Is you want to share a little bit about that journey?
Chris Conlee:Yeah, because you know, I would say, even before we talk about we went to Ben organ and, you know, just really tried to. I think it was maybe four days that we we spent there and I think you painted an accurate picture. It is really more surgery. It's not a minor, it's not a minor medical. You know it's not an outpatient situation. You know it's a situation where, though, intellectually and even biblically, we kind of knew the answers as far as you know what you should do and and how you should forgive and how you should move forward. But I mean, all of us have quoted first John, one nine and not really, and we have forgiven from the head but not necessarily the heart. All of us have said I forgive you with our lips, but our heart is still feeling something different. So when we went to Ben organ, I just knew that I needed something more than intellectual. You know, I wasn't on a.
Chris Conlee:What had happened to us, and therefore what had happened to our heart, was the most intensive, unexpected attack upon everything our identity, who we were. You know, kind of the blood, sweat and tears that you put into what it means to, you know, feel like you're called as a man and woman of God and you're called to serve, you know, a local church. You're called to serve a city and, honestly, for 18 years that had gone extraordinarily well. And then, in the midst of six months, all hell breaks loose. And you know, in many regards, from a set of circumstances that happened before we were even the pastor, that happened by someone else, that you know was not our own doing, and yet this thing kind of unspireld, and in doing so I at least personally found myself and I know you were on your own level, and then for the sake of me, and then for the sake of the kids, but I found myself devastated and so I felt like at least I can only speak for myself and please want you to speak for yourself in different parts of this.
Chris Conlee:But I entered into that time of counseling, desperate. I entered into it like God, I need you to heal me. I need something more than kind of the prescription, the diagnosis and the prescription, like I needed a level of heart surgery to be done where something transpired. That that you know.
Chris Conlee:A lot of times when we talk about healing, you know, people immediately think about healing on a physical level, and I'll tell more about the story in a moment, but I want to give you the opportunity to speak into it as well. But I felt like I experienced a level of healing that was at the soul level and at the spirit level that overwhelmed my emotions and then ultimately resulted in a type of physical healing, and so I think it's just important for us sometimes, in a journey like this, is just to admit that you need that level of help and that you can't do it on your own and you can't just toughen up and you can't just try harder, that you're wounded and if you don't get some kind of in this way let's just call it medical attention the wound is going to fester in a way that the other parts of you that are healthy will become unhealthy.
Karin Conlee:No, I think that's a really good analogy. I mean, it's kind of like in some ways, like sin, like if you think you can just bury it, that behavior that is gonna come out somewhere else. I think the same is true with pain, and I think it is more the culture to just toughen up and that didn't hurt, and we just kind of try to. We just kind of brush a lot of things under and I think honestly, from our own journey, we would tell you there are more counselors. We would tell you not to go see than to go see. It is very important that you get to somebody that actually has a track record of progress, and healing can take a different amount of time for people.
Chris Conlee:But that and even in you saying that, I wanna give a little context of that. As far as to not see versus to see is because if you're not careful, counseling can just put more burden on you. Here's more things you need to fix, and there's times that we're so weak and we're so wounded. The thought of us having to fix something else just becomes more of the burden and can even kind of spiral you into more of a place of depression. You need someone that not only understands counseling but understands the ways of the spirit, how the spirit of God works, combined with the word of God, so that there's wisdom. But there's more than wisdom. There is the ability to actually be in tune with how the spirit of God works, so that healing can be released. In that moment, not only does God heal, but God uses people to heal, and so that's a very unique combination and it's hard to find.
Karin Conlee:Well, and I also think, as I know the story because I was there, that you're getting ready to tell what I think about is that so many times, people that have had pain in their past and have not maybe had the resources or the opportunity, or when something happens to you as a child and you just if it's in the context of your family, there may not be someone saying, wow, that shouldn't have happened and we're gonna get you some help. That's probably not the context. And so you'll find someone you know decades later dealing with another problem. And what is so interesting of what you were just saying it occurred to me is, like a lot of times it's getting that person to be able to say, yeah, that really hurts, like what did that actually do to you? And it's just funny and that's not the right word. But it's odd how you can either come in the moment as honest as you know how to say what is going on right now is excruciating and I need healing, or, if you don't, it's probably gonna come up somewhere down the road.
Chris Conlee:Well, it makes me think of a story where one time I heard Andy Stanley telling a story about his dad, charles Stanley, dr Charles Stanley and Andy Stanley going to a counselor together to try to heal some brokenness in their own relationship and he's like and what is a counselor gonna tell the two of us? You know two people who.
Karin Conlee:And their life helping people.
Chris Conlee:Right and so well versed in the word of God and has done enormous counseling. And that's where counseling goes beyond the mind into the heart and you have to understand the ways of the spirit to really see something that happens that is, again, not on the burden of the individual, always to fix themselves, you know. So let me tell a little bit of this story in particular, as we went into this counseling and again this was like a four day experience and so in many ways, you know, you're kinda trying to get beyond the symptoms or the surface level hurt, trying to get into the core. And there was a moment in the counseling where the counselor just asked me okay, you know, close your eyes. And I want you to give me a visual picture of kind of how you see yourself right now, what is the condition you're in. And I remember this incredibly vivid picture. It really, in that moment it was as if I became the main character in a movie. It was the equivalent in my mind's eye, that like, I literally like, and I don't know that I had had this type of experience before. But it was like I closed my eyes and the movie started to roll, so to speak, and what I saw was I saw myself on a battlefield and that I was wounded and in the wound I literally had like six, seven, eight, nine arrows in my heart that had been just shot in my heart and I was bleeding out and, you know, on the verge of dying. And I was in this military crawl, you know, trying to get across the battlefield, because on the other side of the battlefield was you, mark and Anika, and so as I'm crawling, struggling, and in a very visual kind of almost 3D experience of this vision, I literally find myself kind of physically feeling in that level of agony.
Chris Conlee:And then the counselor said okay, I wanna ask you in this moment to ask the question you know where's Jesus and would you ask him to show up on the scene? And again, some of this stuff sounds a little touchy-feely. Some of this stuff is not necessarily things that maybe I had had exposure or experience with before, but in a very visual, powerful way. I really saw Jesus appear in that movie on that battlefield, walk toward me and then as he got near to me, he kneeled down and he kind of picked me up and he laid me over his knee and that when he did that he began to pull the arrows out of my heart. And again, I want people to know that this is the goodness of who our God is, that he is this level of detail and he will create these types of images to give you the ability to heal. Because I can remember this with such precise detail that, as he pulled those arrows out of my heart, he put his hand over my heart and, instead of blood coming out of my heart, my heart started to gush forth with rivers of living water, and that water began to cleanse everything that was wounded and sick and devastated, and my heart started to beat again and pulse again with strength and with these waters, like you would imagine, in one of those beautiful white water kind of rivers that the currents flow in. And so, as he put his hand over my heart and the waters are gushing forth in that moment, all of a sudden the counselor said would you ask Jesus if there's anything else he wants to do to heal you?
Chris Conlee:And I then immediately see my dad and my brother walk up right beside Jesus, and my dad and I had had a difficult father-son relationship. We had worked through things and we had seen some amazing forgiveness and healing in those things. There's a documentary out about it called Love Works. But my dad had recently passed away. And as my dad walked up and my dad had a good sense of humor, he kind of looked at me and he said it's a good thing I wasn't there or I would have kicked there you know what. And honestly that was so par for the course for my dad and it was just amazing to me even in this moment of healing it brought my dad's personality in. But then my dad looked at me and with kind of tears in his eyes he said I'm so sorry. And then he said this and I'm sorry for everything. And he was sorry for what had just happened to us. But then he was also saying and I'm sorry for everything that has happened in our relationship. And there was just this moment of healing between you know, not only was Jesus providing healing, but there's now healing between me and my earthly father. But then next, after that moment, there was just kind of this moment of peace.
Chris Conlee:My brother steps in and my brother says do you remember that day that you beat me on the golf course?
Chris Conlee:And really I knew exactly what he was referring to that my brother shot 64 on the day he died in a high school golf match. And when I was 18, on the day he died, I was playing in a high school golf match on the exact same golf course and I'll never forget that. I walked to the 18th tee and I told my playing partners that day that my competitors, if I make birdie on this hole, I beat my brother today and I hit a driver five iron the five iron liddle is a par five took one bounce, hit the pin dropped right next to the hole. I made eagle. I shot 62 that day and my brother said I wanted you to beat me that day. I knew you were going to beat me that day. And it was just one of those things where he said, chris, you were born and made to play the game of golf. And he said and you know, there was times it was easy for you. And he said your future in ministry is going to be like your best day on the golf course.
Chris Conlee:It's going to be easy for you. And at the end of that moment again, between just suffering the greatest wound and hurt that we've ever suffered, and then God healing that, and then God healing a father wound, and then God even having my brother speak to me, kind of this affirming word, what happened next? I was not expecting it all and in many ways, only the only thing I know is the Holy Spirit brought it to my mind. But I had the picture, you know, of Jacob wrestling with God and I began to literally physically scream out I'm not letting go till you bless me. I'm not letting go till you bless me, bless me, bless me, bless me, bless me. And there was just this authority in it. And the only thing I know is like I mean, in that moment there was tons of weeping.
Chris Conlee:In that moment there was just like a physical reaction, but it was as if, when I said Jesus pulled the arrows out of my heart, laid his hand upon my heart, the blood quit flowing in the rivers of living. Like, like is like. That literally happened. It didn't just happen in my mind's eye, it was as if it literally happened in, like all the anger that I had in me from all that had transpired, and you know, though.
Chris Conlee:You know you should forgive, but you don't want to forgive. God literally gave me the ability to forgive based upon his forgiveness of me, and, honestly, that's the only reason I've not been better, and it's the only reason, in many ways I mean there's some of your influence that I really had the ability to not fight back, and it's the only reason that he taught me such an extraordinary principle. In that moment, it just formed in my mind that forgiveness is the first step to healing, but blessing is the first step to health, and it was from that moment in time that, I believe, the healing journey began. See, forgiveness is not the end of the process. It's the beginning of the process.
Karin Conlee:Chris, I know that there's a lot of things about forgiveness that the Lord taught us through this journey and I want to ask you about that. But one of the things that, as you were describing that, and obviously if people know your story, like I know your story, I know all the intricacies, but what I thought might be helpful for people to understand, because sometimes, when just everything feels so dark, if you can just kind of, you know, take a few pieces instead of just this big cloud and kind of define some things, I don't know, sometimes that helps me. But I think there was this realization that what had happened in our present triggered some areas that you had already had healing in.
Karin Conlee:So, in your father wound, the story, the lie that the enemy had told you was you're good but not good enough, and you had done a lot of work to really have healing from that. Well, then this crisis comes and it's like in there were multifaceted ways that the enemy attacked in that, but one of them was to kind of re -trigger that, see, you were good but not good enough. And so just, I think sometimes to have an awareness of like, why am I going back to all these places that I've already done some work? I don't know. For me there's some, there's a little bit of. Okay, let me, let's just understand what's happening here. The enemy is trying to go back to those places.
Chris Conlee:He does, and if we're not careful, we'll think a trigger is, you know, just honestly, something that the enemy has complete control over. But in this particular situation, god took me back to actually accelerate the healing, and so don't always assume something that triggers you in reverse is just the enemy's territory. Now let me say this nine times out of 10, he tries to take advantage of it, and I would encourage you whatever you do, don't let yesterday imprison tomorrow. Our culture so focuses on yesterday and I think the enemy uses this, that yesterday limits tomorrow.
Chris Conlee:But another incredible truth that we learned about this in the world of forgiveness is a lot of times people make the mistake of using this term forgive and forget, and scripture never says forgive and forget.
Chris Conlee:What forgiveness does is it changes the way you remember, and you either remember from a place of hurt or from a place of healing. Now, if that triggered event takes you back to a place of healing, then God can actually use that for good. But if that triggered event takes you back to a place of hurt where you've not experienced healing, then you're going to respond to the hurt, and so in this way, I just think it's incredibly important for us to allow God to heal the past in such a way that we remember the healing, because God had done healing in my heart and I wasn't expecting my dad and my brother to show up on that scene. But God actually knew that I needed some additional healing and I even received some things that my dad wasn't able to give me in his physical life through that vision, and I received some things that my brother wasn't able to give me in his physical life through that vision. And so not only did Jesus speak to me, but then he used those two strategic relationships to speak to me.
Karin Conlee:So, chris, this is where, in talking with people, it's easy, it's understandable, we not? Yes, forgiveness is what I should do, but then it's kind of but I could never forgive, or you know, like that won't ever happen. And there's just this a lot of times it does feel like this, a line in the sand that some people are unwilling to cross. What would you say to help somebody who has just said never, ever, I'm not. It's too painful, it's too deep.
Chris Conlee:I would say do you want the burden of living a perfect life forevermore, where you never have to receive forgiveness? I don't want that burden. So I've received forgiveness and I'm going to need more forgiveness, and so I don't want to live by the double standard of being someone who's willing to receive forgiveness but not give forgiveness. And so what I've got to do is I've got to always remember that, first and foremost, I need to be the recipient of forgiveness from God. And then, when I see that I didn't do anything to earn that forgiveness, that it was freely given to me, that I had a debt that I could not pay all right and that he paid it and that's why it's called forgiveness it is given to you Then even the most heinous of offenses against you, even the most vulnerable of sins against you, you're not by forgiving that person.
Chris Conlee:That doesn't mean you're necessarily going to reconcile with that person. By forgiving that person, it doesn't mean you're necessarily going to release them from any consequences. But by forgiving that person, you're saying, okay, god, I'm entrusting them to you, but I am going to forgive them so that that poison is no longer affecting me.
Karin Conlee:Sometimes you still don't feel like it. So when someone says I just I don't feel like forgiving them.
Chris Conlee:We rarely feel like forgiving right, like on the front end. I mean you're offended. I mean the reason why you need to forgive someone on the is because something went wrong, and typically something personal went wrong and you're offended. And when we're offended we're hurt, and when we're offended we want to fight back. And so the feelings of forgiveness almost always follow forgiveness, never precede forgiveness. Now, this is a hard truth. A lot of times, god's truth in some ways offend you before it transforms you. That like it's kind of offensive to say I need to forgive if I didn't do anything and the other person did something to me and I kind of have to get over that and I have to be the first to offer forgiveness, not because of the other person but because I need to be released from the hurt.
Karin Conlee:Yeah, and I know there are times that you kind of walk through that I forgave them, but I still ugh, I still. What would you say to that person that's maybe gone through that process before and said, okay, I did, I prayed, I forgave them, I've tried to release them, but I'm still struggling? What would you say to them?
Chris Conlee:This is where I think it helps to understand that forgiveness doesn't always equal reconciliation. Sometimes it does. There are some people that if I interpreted forgiveness meaning that I was going to have to reconnect in that relationship and then try to trust them again, that could have been a barrier. There's a radical difference between forgiveness and trust. Trust is a combination of one's character and one's competency, and there's a sense there where that trust has to be earned, where forgiveness is more a gift that we have to receive and then therefore give to others, based upon Jesus paying for our sin and therefore being able to forgive all of us and release us. And so the first thing I have to do, instead of worrying about every kind of next step down the road, is I just have to say I'm going to forgive them and release them from the offense, forgive them and release them from the debt that they have created in my own heart, and I'm going to entrust them to God. And I'm not necessarily going to try to solve the next problem before it even presents itself, and I'm not necessarily going to try to reconcile the relationship. I'm going to see what God wants me to do next, but I'm going to do the first thing, which is to forgive.
Chris Conlee:Once forgiveness takes place honestly, sometimes reconciliation depends on the other person. It depends on whether they're healing, depends on whether they're seeking, depends on whether they want it or not. Sometimes it is not healthy for you to reconcile with someone that that person violated you or hurt you in a way that it would not be healthy for you to be in good relationship with them. Sometimes you're never going to spend time with that person enough again to actually trust them in order to restore the relationship. So what I would say is don't worry about them.
Karin Conlee:Do what you need to do between you and God, and then let God begin that healing process in your heart and see what he wants you to do after that and I can just, if I could just plead with anybody that's watching this or listening to this as hard as our journey felt in the moment that's all you can take care of is that whole thing. God loves me and I love Him. Therefore, I'm okay. I'm just like I can't imagine walking through this journey and also carrying the 500 pound bag of unforgiveness. Just what freedom it gave us.
Karin Conlee:And sure, there are times where we're like, okay, like I've in my mind and in my heart, I've rehearsed this and I've done this and I've released them, but I've not seen them. And I might see them. It doesn't mean that my pulse didn't go up. It doesn't mean that I didn't have a motion come over my body. There are still things along the journey that happen but it was wow. I'm so glad that I've already dealt with that and that, yes, this was a reminder, but it's a reminder that I've dealt with it.
Chris Conlee:I couldn't agree more, and I would say think about it this way Forgiveness opens your heart, unforgiveness closes your heart, and so forgiveness will open your heart to receive more love again, to love other people. I'm not even talking about loving this person again per se. I'm talking about that. If you have unforgiveness and it closes your heart, ultimately it's going to close your ability to forgive the next person in a healthy relationship. It's going to close your ability to receive more love in order to give more love, and so it's really essential that forgiveness opens your heart to be more of a receiver, so that you can be more of a giver.
Chris Conlee:And here's the thing it also opens your heart to receive more of the Holy Spirit, and the more you abide in Him and he abides in you, then you're going to bear fruit, more fruit, much fruit. The more you walk by the Spirit, the more you're going to bear the fruits of the Spirit, and then that's going to open you up to being able to also do the works of the Spirit. And so there is. The fruit of forgiveness is so much more than just releasing a person. It's so much more than reconciling or restoration. The fruit of forgiveness is allowing your heart to remain open, to receive more from God, so that you can receive all the fullness of God's love, to be the embodiment of love in order to actually love others.
Karin Conlee:So, chris, as we are talking about kind of this moment, this experience with the counselor, is there anything else on the topic of forgiveness before we wrap up today that you feel like is helpful for somebody that's on that journey right now?
Chris Conlee:Yeah, again, I want to go back for just a moment. I mentioned earlier that yesterday has the ability to imprison tomorrow. Yesterday has the ability to limit tomorrow. So unforgiveness is about the past, forgiveness is about the future. If you choose not to forgive, in all probability you'll repeat the past, and that's a painful repetition. If you choose to forgive, you'll heal from the past and have a greater likelihood that you won't repeat the past and that you'll embrace the future. And so none of us like being stuck and we don't want to become stuck by a painful moment. We want to leave the painful moment in the past and we want to become unstuck. Well, unforgiveness is how you get stuck. Forgiveness is how you become unstuck.
Karin Conlee:Well, chris, I hope that this has been a helpful kind of deep dive into our experience, but, more importantly than that, just the principles and the impact that walking through that journey and extending forgiveness has, I think, been such a key part to us really being able to heal and to be able to look to the future. And when hard things happen, it's bad enough for it to steal that day, that moment, that year. Don't give it more authority and more influence than it had. So there is something to let it go of those things so you can fully focus on the future.
Chris Conlee:So I'd like to one last thing here in closing. I told a very dramatic story about this counseling experience where God gave a vision, where experienced incredible healing. From that. Please don't just think that's just something God does for the select few, or that's just something that is rare. God is a good, good father that will do anything to heal his children If you just come to him and you just crowd help. Like some of my prayers, I wasn't praying polite prayers in this season, I wasn't praying proper prayers, I wasn't being eloquent, I was literally crying out help. And when I say crying out, I mean like God, you have to help me. And yes, we went and saw it getting some professional help, but all that person did was facilitate God's healing, and so I just would want to break it down, to sometimes just cry out for help, and in that help, god will interpret the rest and give you what you need.
Karin Conlee:Well, and not every experience looks the exact same, and so, however, god knows you, god knows your personality, god knows what you need to see, hear, experience it doesn't have to match your experience or my experience but know that he cares intimately about you and wants you to experience that freedom. So, all right, well, you know, we made it through Atlanta and with a little detour to through Ben Oregon, and we will pick up Unwasted Pain next time. Thank you so much for following along with us, and we pray that this will be a huge encouragement to you and the people that you love.