Unwasted Pain
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we delve into the depths of human experience and explore the intricacies of unwasted pain. In our podcast, "Unwasted Pain," we tackle the universal yet often misunderstood topic of pain and provide insights, support, and guidance for those seeking to navigate the challenges it presents.
Unwasted Pain
Exploring the Prophetic
In this episode, we share our personal experiences and discuss how God has spoken to us during our darkest times. We highlight the importance of setting time aside to seek God's will, and how divine interventions have steered us during our most challenging moments.
We continue with an exploration of the Holy Spirit and its extraordinary influence on our lives. From illuminating scriptures to bestowing visions, we examine how the Holy Spirit communicates divine words, and how it has shaped our understanding of the Trinity. We also shed light on the Spirit's role in revival, and the perils of fighting its lead. Join us, as we navigate through successes, crises, and the prophetic. Find out how our crises have opened us up to the Holy Spirit, and spurred us to seek more of God.
Hello and welcome to Unwasted Pain. I'm here with Chris and I'm Karen Conley and we're so glad to have you back for another episode If you've been traveling along this path with us. We have kind of shared a little bit, via story kind of our journey and really from that trying to honestly model the tagline of this podcast and that we are not going to waste a wound, that our pain will not be unwaisted, and as much as that's true for us, that is absolutely true for everybody. But kind of in that we've tried to take a moment to kind of step back from our circumstances and kind of share what God taught us, some from places of victory, some places from the valley, but with the hopes that anything that can be gleaned from our journey to help people on their own journey, that that is what this podcast would provide. And so we've kind of made a little bit of the tour, our departure from Memphis to Atlanta and then to Cleveland, and then we've talked about, I think, the calling God's calling us back to the city that we love and before we go any further in that journey, one of the things that you and I had talked about, chris, was really honestly, the way that this journey has unfolded, that God had more of himself to show to us, and so I think in our last episode we talked about kind of the Henry Blackabee principles, of just the four different ways that God speaks, how that had been, and still is to this day, a very foundational part of how we make a decision as a couple that he speaks through wise counsel, through the word, through prayer and through circumstances, as kind of those four ways.
Speaker 1:And that you know, if you set a time apart, a set of well, I can't say it if you set aside a period of time, look, I did it and say, okay, you know, for this two weeks we're going to pray about whatever decisions in front of us that we get to the end of that time and say, you know, god is not a God of hide and seek, but he's a God who wants us to obey and he wants to reveal his will to us. And so when those line up in, you know all in the same direction, then, to the best of your ability, you can know that you are trying to obey the Lord, and so that's something that we have done for 25 years. But there was something new and there were some new levels of desperation. That kind of collided in our journey. So I've got lots to say but you know you don't always want to talk to you. Listen to me Maybe, from your perspective, kind of share a little bit of kind of that that journey we began to take during this wilderness experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would say, anytime you're in a wilderness, by the very definition that this is a season of adversity, your ears a little bit more attuned to. I desperately need to hear from the Lord. And you know you mentioned earlier just one of the ways that God speaks is wise counsel, and that's very true. But we had been in a situation where we saw wise counsel in very godly, respected people would give chapter and verse that we should make this decision, kind of call it option a. And then another group of people that again we understand why they gave the council there's nothing wrong with the council and they give chapter and verse for option B. And yet here we were going. Okay, we respect these people, we understand the context from which they give wise counsel, but we really just need a definitive word from God.
Speaker 2:And I'll never forget that when we were back in Atlanta and we were kind of in this, you know, interim season and we were living in an apartment and there was this business park across the street and you and I would go for walks, you know, kind of through that business park and and there would just be conversation after conversation after conversation of like God, where are you and speak, like I mean I need to hear you.
Speaker 2:And then you know, each of us in our own way. You know, in the mornings we'd have our priority time, and if you're not familiar with that term, it's just our term for like a quiet time or a devotional time, but we just say it's that one priority that determines all priorities. And so we were spending time in the word, we were spending time in prayer, but at the same time it was just like okay, god, I need you to reveal yourself in a way that's undeniable, that is so clear that I can't possibly miss it. And really I would like to even use the word supernatural and, depending on someone's denominational background, some people might start to get a little bit nervous of, like you know well, what does he mean by supernatural, and I would just like to completely normalize the word if God is not supernatural, then what is he?
Speaker 2:And he's probably not God, yeah, there you go, and so some people use the term naturally supernatural. You know, when we say the word supernatural, it doesn't mean that you have to be weird or something like that, but I really believe our God. What we've seen in the last five years, as we went through this wilderness experience, we saw more of the supernatural work of God in the past five years than maybe we had seen in the previous 25 years, and I think when we are at our lowest moments, that's frequently when we see God at his best and that God knows exactly what we need and he wants to provide it. And so what we needed is we needed God to speak in some supernatural ways.
Speaker 1:You know, chris, as I think, about this particular podcast and probably a subsequent one, just depending on how this whole thing unfolds you know, we're really kind of pulling back the curtain a little bit to some of just our engagement with the Lord during the season. So we've talked circumstantially and we've talked about just some of the external ways, but this is really kind of in the in the heart level. And you know and I can't even remember you'll have to help me on this if in some of our previous podcasts we kind of gave the context of, you know, in 2010, you went on the sabbatical and you yourself wanted to say I want I don't want to overemphasize the Holy Spirit, but I don't want to under-emphasize it either. I grew up with a certain theological framework.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and actually you didn't really grow up with one, but the seminary went to had one and most people do.
Speaker 2:And people would describe it as you know we're open to the Holy Spirit, but we're cautious. They wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying that we believe the gifts have ceased to exist, but so they would kind of lean towards say we're continuous, you know, in the sense that we believe these gifts have continued to exist. The work of the Spirit is operative today, but there was a lot more fear associated with it than there was confidence. What then? There was just, it was something that just was very, very cautious, and so I think I was very, very limited in my experience and exposure to how the Holy Spirit really works, and it was something that, like you said, 2010,.
Speaker 2:You know, I read over 20 books on the Holy Spirit from all different types of authors and different types of denominations.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to know what the scripture had to say on this subject, and once my mind became confident and I really was able to dive into 1 Corinthians, 12, 13, 14 and really be confident in what the scripture said, then I think my heart became open and it was through that process that I began to experience more of the Holy Spirit, but in that, I was still having to learn how he works, and then, honestly, you know, our framework had been such that when we would look at the way that Henry Blackeby taught about God speaking, you know, through the word, through you know prayer, through wise counsel and circumstances, we would see the Holy Spirit in the sense that he would illuminate scripture and it would cause you know scripture to kind of have this aha moment, like I've never seen that before, like I really sense God spoke through this moment, but in the context of other people hearing God speak and really hearing God speak, where God would give them a vision or a picture or a word or, you know, a scripture for us, and oftentimes people that maybe we've never even met or known, and they would speak something into our life that it would be impossible for that accuracy to exist without prior knowledge, but yet they had no prior knowledge.
Speaker 2:That's when, all of a sudden, it started blowing our mind a little bit.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, and I would just say one of the reasons that we, in hindsight, what is unwaisted pain? I think in hindsight we would say part of the pain that we experience, god had a purpose in it in that I don't know if we would have. I know that we were growing in our understanding of the spirit and I think for me, kind of one of the first you know, because I kind of you know, in our context and our journey, I was like I don't know, you know, and it's kind of that old saying anybody who loves Jesus more than you is a freak. So it's like, well, I'm comfortable with this, but that is outside of my comfort zone and so that must be weird or theologically incorrect or something, and so like guards would kind of go up.
Speaker 1:But there also just became, I think one of the first things that kind of piqued my curiosity was an expression of like we treat the Trinity as God, the Father, jesus, the Son and the Holy Scripture and I'm like, oh, that is true, like that's not the Trinity, like Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. I hadn't even realized it. But yeah, maybe there is some part of just what feels safe and comfortable and known. Maybe I've accidentally accepted something that actually maybe isn't the fullest expression of what the Trinity is.
Speaker 2:Well, and one of the things I'd say about that is and that is especially true here in the South I think that description of God, the Father, god, the Son, god, the Holy Bible, is an incredibly accurate picture. It's well-intentioned, you know, but it's still misled, it's still a little bit off-base. But for us, we were seeing God do extraordinary things. We were seeing, literally at times, an average of 30 people every Sunday trusting Christ, which is, I mean, if that's not a work of the Holy Spirit, I don't know what is. We were seeing our church grow in extraordinary ways.
Speaker 1:We're seeing our prayer team explode.
Speaker 2:Yes, and we were successful enough that you could actually be a little bit comfortable and go. I'm not sure that I want more of the Holy Spirit, because sometimes that brings a little bit of stuff in that that I don't feel like I'm as in control with. And there were so many people in the life of our church, some people on our staff, saying hey, hey, we got a great thing going here, don't mess it up with the Holy Spirit. Imagine, you know, trying to step back and imagine that statement, you know, from God's perspective, and it really that statement just speaks about how much we really like to be in control and how smart we really think we are and how much we like to lead versus following His lead. But for us it was a situation where we were trying to remain open and vulnerable to God, and we had. I believe God had given us His vision for this city, his vision for revival, and we knew that revival was not possible apart from a greater work of the Holy Spirit. And so for us, as we were going into this and this is just trying to be incredibly honest I was doing everything I could to learn more about the Holy Spirit, move forward in experience and understanding the Holy Spirit, but, honestly, kind of in a safe way, and because our church was a church that was, you know, running close to 5,000 on a Sunday.
Speaker 2:You can be successful enough in life that the more successful you are, the more you gain, and the more you gain, the more you're afraid of losing what you gain. And so there are some ways that you can be so successful that you're hesitant to take certain steps of faith because you begin to protect what you've already gained. And for us, I wonder, and I believe in our crisis, there was a way through our crisis that didn't have to take the path we had. It would have still been challenging. It would still, you know, tested all of us. We still had to grow in different ways. I don't believe it had to take the path it took, but I do believe it put us in a place of desperation where we became more open to the Holy Spirit, to the manifestations of, you know, the gifts of the Spirit, than we would have been before.
Speaker 1:So, Chris, I guess I would just say to anybody that's watching us, whether you've known us from our previous context or you have no context that one of the things that I look back. And again, another indicator to me of you know what, if we're gonna do this thing called life, it's hard. If we're gonna say we follow the Lord and that he is our master, our ruler, our king, I want all of Him. And so what does that look like? I think in so many ways in our journey, people just stereotype and label out of convenience or out of fear or whatever the case may be, not just in a religious context or a spiritual context, but in anything in life we like to okay, you're this way and you're this way, and now I know. And so because of that label, you must be this and that and the other.
Speaker 1:And I think one of the things that, as we have come back and as we kind of continue sharing about this, is to say you know, that picture of the two wings is really what I feel like the dangers that people have are the swinging of the pendulums. Yeah, you know so in the spirit-filled, which would be some terminology that people are really familiar with, and the spirit-filled context. It's, you know, people that are, you know, running around and crazy and there's no control and they don't rely on the Word of the God, and and it just it like it's just experiential, it's emotional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be the label against this it's too emotional, it's too hype, it's not grounded enough. That would be, again, I think, some unfair labeling, sure.
Speaker 1:And on the other side, kind of even where we have come from of you know the legalism and the judgment and the you know, you know the just why people don't like Christians of just standing in judgment of other people, and so it's just interesting. I think one of the things again, because we were forced into a place of just only God is going to be able to unravel this hot mess. You know what we can't, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried. Father, we, we're just coming to you and we want all of you and our lives are for you and show us how this works. But I think in that you just also are able to step back and say, okay, from God's perspective it's not the extreme of either, and we can get prideful in either spiritual camp and any camp in between and think our way is the right way.
Speaker 2:Well, and I would just for everyone. Every person has their own wilderness. You're either, you know, coming out of a crisis, you're in the midst of a crisis, or, unfortunately, you might be about to enter a crisis.
Speaker 2:Okay, you know it's just the nature of living in a fallen, broken, sinful world. But I think what's important is to know that when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, there was, you know, a cloud by day and fire by night that led them. There was manna that provided for them every step of the way, and then there was these moments that you finally get, you know, kind of to the river, and there's the crossing over moment. And so I think what we would like to do today is really just highlight, you know, the prophetic in our decision-making process how God provided His Word, how God provided direction, but also how God has provided some financially in that process to get us to that moment of how do you cross over. And in many ways we haven't fully crossed over. I kind of feel like we are literally at this moment in time. We are, we have stepped into the river, the waters have parted, we can see the other side, but we still have, you know, there's still some distance to walk through that river. And so let me just take just a moment when it comes to the prophetic, and 1 Corinthians 14, starting verse 1, says this pursue love. And so, just as we think about, you know, the Holy Spirit. We think about spiritual gifts and things like that. Let's just always remember that's. That's the driving force of it all Pursue love. If we ever isolate one another or we ever criticize one another, we ever have someone that these are the haves and the have nots and we divide and we create camps about what people believe and all that kind of stuff. We're not pursuing love, all right. Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts. And I can't say in my first 20 plus years of walking with the Lord in ministry that I earnestly desired spiritual gifts. I can say I earnestly desired more of God, but I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't know what that felt like. And so this is something that again a very clear command in scripture, but yet not something that was really ever highlighted or emphasized Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts. But especially that you may prophesy.
Speaker 2:Now, when most people again, depending on your background, think of that word, they might think of kind of Old Testament prophets where they're giving a direct kind of word from God. They're speaking into a specific circumstance, oftentimes with a specific kind of prediction or specific kind of date of when something's going to happen and there's great legitimacy for that in that day and time. But the way the prophetic works in the New Testament is a little bit different, in the way that God has fulfilled certain prophecies of the Old Testament. We think of the prophecy from Joel, in where God is giving the Holy Spirit to every person and in the gift of the Holy Spirit we have access to all the gifts. And even that word, what he talks about earnestly desire the spiritual gifts. The word gifts is supplied and it really means earnestly desire the spirituals, or the spiritual stuff, or the stuff the spirit does. And so it's not like we just all, you have two, three gifts. I have two, three gifts. No, we have the gift of the Holy Spirit and therefore we have access to all the manifestations of the spirit.
Speaker 2:But prophecy, specifically, it really says it's about three things Edification, exhortation and consolation. Edification just means to build up, and boy, in this particular season, did we need words to build us up, all right. And then exhortation says to call near or to call higher and honestly, even though we were trying to do everything we could to walk with God, just when there's adversity in your life and there's, you know your whole world's been turned upside down. Sometimes it's hard to feel near to God, that just the chaos of your life kind of makes you feel far away. And then there's consolation, which this the term doesn't necessarily sound like, what it means, it means to increase in joy or gladness. And I can tell you that every time we received an unexpected prophetic word, it brought some joy into our lives, some gladness into our life, because it provided the hope of a better day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think back, Chris, and I realized you were referencing the children of Israel in the wilderness and the manna, and I think, in a very real way, God used the prophetic to be our manna. That you know. Yes, we were having our spiritual disciplines, we were having our priority time, like we were, you know, beating on his chest, knocking on the door, trying to be still trying to figure out, you know. So that was definitely there.
Speaker 1:But you're right, sometimes, when you're in a place of grieving or a place of shock or something has unexpected happened, there are times where it's like I don't even know what to say to the Lord. It's, you know the scripture about when you have no words and groaning. And so there were times where, like I'm here, god, but I'm not really here, like I'm just kind of numb and I just don't know what to do. And again, when you're not in that season, you know it's, you can't replicate those feelings Like those are just like you are either in that wilderness or you're not.
Speaker 1:But that was how, like when I'm like, hey, I don't know that I'm hearing anything from you. It was amazing the way that God, you know, I think, believing, like he wants to speak to us more than even we want to speak to him, or more than we even want to hear from him. His bent is wanting to communicate with us, and so sometimes he does it through those four ways. But sometimes he also puts people in your life that will speak a word that you know. At the beginning it might have been. I sure hope that's true.
Speaker 2:Well, let me give you an example. So we're in Atlanta and in many ways we're anonymous. You know we've just moved there. You know we know less than 10 people in this city of 7 million people. We're visiting different churches and intentionally trying to visit kind of churches different than we've always been to, and just trying to learn both, you know, as it relates to the spirit of God, but also as it related to diversity and the things that we believe God was doing in our hearts to be people who pursue unity.
Speaker 2:But we were at Bethel Atlanta once and you know, we're just again, just anonymously in the crowd. No one knows us from Adam. We knew the pastor there a little bit but, like you know, that day we just show up, go into church, we're just there like anyone else. And this woman walks up and says hey, I really just sense that God's given me a word for you and you know, has no previous knowledge of us. And in the midst of the word she gave, she quoted Genesis, chapter 50, verse 20, where it says you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good, to accomplish what is now being done the saving of many lives. And that verse was a verse that, as we went through our crisis and as we lost High Point Church and it was a verse that God had already spoken it was a verse that I felt like spoke specifically into our circumstances in a unique way.
Speaker 1:And I don't I mean, maybe someone else just calls that, you know, random, maybe someone else just calls that coincidence, but and it would be one thing if she knew we had had a crisis, right, that would be, if I know somebody who's in a crisis and something unjust has happened, that might be a verse that I would pull out, but she had no idea.
Speaker 2:And why do you come up to somebody and be like, oh, let me assume you're in a crisis, you know, and honestly, from our context and it was a very good context, I mean the godly people, people that we love but that stuff just didn't happen, Like people weren't necessarily familiar with the prophetic, they weren't trained in the prophetic. And just for someone to walk up to a random stranger and say I sense that God has shown me this and I'd have to go back Like in my notes I've got more of her, the specifics, but I remember specifically quoting Genesis 50, verse 20. And I just remember in that moment going oh my gosh, God sees me and that's a word from God and it's a promise from God. And I walked away. What, In the prophetic edification I walked away, built up, you know, exhortation. There's an exhortation in that of it's gonna draw you closer to God, it's gonna call you higher to God, and then there's that consolation it's gonna increase in joy.
Speaker 2:And then again, there's been other occasions and there are times we receive prophetic words from someone that knows us, but the ones that have absolutely blown me away are when they're from people whom you've never met. And these people take a step of risk, a step of faith, and they approach you. And again, this is someone that just walked up one time and quoted and said I really sense that God's given me this verse for you. It's Zachariah, chapter nine, verse 12. And it says return to your stronghold, a prisoner of hope. What an amazing term a prisoner of hope.
Speaker 2:When you're in a place that feels hopeless, and there's a verse that calls you a prisoner of hope, says today, I declare that I will restore to you double. Now, when we're in a place where literally no exaggeration we've lost everything, and someone comes and gives you a scripture and says God told me to share this with you. In that God's gonna restore to you double. I don't know how that does it radically influence your faith and calls you to go. This is not coincidence that somehow, some way, why? In?
Speaker 1:25 years prior had no one ever come up to us and said that like this was the season we needed to hear that that's a phenomenal perspective that is.
Speaker 2:I mean, that is remarkable, actually, as I've never even thought about it that way before. That. You're right. We had been in a season, a prolonged season, of incredible blessing, and yet now we're in this season where we're anonymous and we're in different places, and yet we keep getting people coming up giving us these words. And so I share that, because we want every person on this podcast to know this is how much God cares about them, how much God is one who speaks. He's not silent. You referenced this earlier. He's not a God of hide and seek, he's actually the God that wants to be found.
Speaker 2:And so in this now, this is where I wanna get people outside the box a little bit there are people that, in a general sense, can go. All right. I can see that somehow another God gives someone that insight, that wisdom they share words, somehow another that connects Most people can go there. All right. Now let me push the boundaries a little bit, all right. So I'm in Reading, california, at Bethel Church and, again, just depending on who's listening to this podcast, there's some people that you maybe have heard some negative things about Bethel. Maybe you've read some negative things.
Speaker 2:Let me just say this I've met the people personally. Scripturally, we're supposed to be known by love. I have been loved by those people. Scripturally, we're supposed to know a tree by its fruit. They bear fruit, more fruit, much fruit. And then, honestly, I think most people that write those things probably haven't been there and they write them from a distance and they write about, you know, something that's really not the right representation. Maybe take it out of context, but I would just assure everyone, when it comes to the body of Christ, let's be slow to criticize, let's build up the body of Christ, let's trust the body of Christ. That you know we're too quick to use the whole term, like you know, a false doctrine or a false prophet. We want to major on the majors, minor on the minors. But here's what I can tell you the leadership of that church, the leadership of the Bethel leadership network, in our lowest moment they ran to us, not away from us. They believed in what God was doing and they became a part of the solution. Alright, so I'm there.
Speaker 2:Now this is again I finish a visit. In that visit I've had the privilege of meeting with Pastor Bill Johnson, extraordinary man, someone whom I have great respect for. I had the privilege of meeting with Chris Valentine Again, someone respect greatly. I had the privilege of meeting with strategic key leaders Danny Silk, I mean, they were just incredibly gracious in giving their time, listening, investing, but toward the end of the visit, a guy says, hey, listen, I want to take you to one of our third-grade classrooms and, with our kids, we teach our kids there's no junior Holy Spirit. And we teach our kids to understand their identity, you know, in Christ, and we want them to learn how to hear from God at early age and we want them to learn how to serve instead of sit. And so I want to take you to a third grade classroom and let the children prophesy with you.
Speaker 1:Which is so outside of our box.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I'm walking down that hallway thinking what in the world is this gonna be right? You know, I am like being polite, I've got a smile on my face, I'm acting like I know what's about to happen. And I have no idea what's about to happen. So I walk into the room and this person introduces me to the teacher and just says Chris is one of our guests here and we just wanted to give the children an opportunity to prophesy and speak into, you know, pastor Chris's life. Maybe I don't recall if he said Pastor Chris or not, but just it. You know, it wasn't a big introduction, it was a very simple introduction. And so the teacher does an amazing job of kind of coaching and guiding the kids and she, you know, reminds them of what the prophetic is and how to prophesy.
Speaker 2:And I remember, you know, like the first one was like I see John 316, and you want to go. Of course, you see John 316, right, it's probably the only verse you've memorized at this point. And a couple of kids were just, you know, as adorable as they could be, as kind as they could be. But then, after a couple, one of them said, and I mean, red in California is, you know, a city of about a hundred thousand. It's mostly a city that's white. And she said this little girl said I've heard it said that when Billy Graham passes away, that God's gonna rise up other evangelists, rise up other prophets. And she said I mean, this is a third grader. She said I believe you are one of them, but I believe it's in the area of racial reconciliation.
Speaker 1:And I know from my experience with R for R that most adults can't pronounce the word reconciliation let alone a third.
Speaker 2:Grader.
Speaker 1:It's like where does that come from? I?
Speaker 2:mean literally, in that moment I sensed the presence of God and I sensed everything just kind of came like it went in slow motion and in this little girl says that, and then another boy and maybe another girl, they kind of add on to it and speak into it, and then the teacher says children, you've done amazing. And because of the way that God's spoken through you, I also believe that God has given me a word for Pastor Chris, and and I voice memoed it it's one of the things they teach you like voice memo this so you can go back, transcribe it and then you can kind of, you know, keep a journal of these things so that you can see how God has spoken. And here's what she said. I felt this is the teacher, this is the teacher. I felt the Holy Spirit strongly about this one, about racial lines being erased. What has felt very white is going to actually bring people of the opposite color together. Revival is going to happen because racial lines have been erased, black and white is coming together and the man to Liz own you for this assignment. You are creating something that is changing the nation for racial lines.
Speaker 2:Now, what she didn't know in that moment is that God had given us a vision for race, for reconciliation, and again that's a big word, like changing the nation for racial lines. You got to start somewhere, and and so we just start with one small act of obedience and let that turn to a second act of obedience and let that build and grow, just like planting seeds, you know, into good soil will eventually reap a harvest. And so there's this big word, but she says it's a big assignment, it's a massive assignment. The pain that you are feeling in what you've walked through is getting you ready for that assignment. Now. She had no previous knowledge of what I was walking through.
Speaker 1:Most pastors aren't there going through the middle of a crisis, right, they're just attending a conference.
Speaker 2:Exactly she says it's going to be so significant, it's so huge. You're in the right place at the right time. The mantle of reconciliation is upon you. Take it. Sometimes it will feel heavy upon you, but it is good. When I look over and I see the book God's Generals, their lives were never easy, but that is your calling to be God's General. I feel like it has a lot to do with racial stuff. Keep fighting it, keep pushing through. Now let me kind of ask our viewing audience right now Can you imagine the conversation I had with you when I got in the car after that and I called you? I remember it. You are not going to believe what just happened to me, so I share that with you. And what's your perspective in that moment?
Speaker 1:You know, honestly, it's blowing every circuit that I have and it at the same time even as you were just reading that back, and obviously you know I've heard that over the last several years as we've kind of shared that sometimes as a testimony you know, it's kind of like out of the mouths of babes that sometimes God, you know, uses those that are most willing and those that are most. You know they have the children, don't have the filter and they don't have the. What is somebody going to think of this? And so it's just. It really does challenge you, if that's not your mindset and that's not your context, to say how big do I really think my God is? Is he this big? Can he just is? Can he really move mountains? Can he? Can he speak through a child?
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of it in those early days I'm, I'm testing and I'm like okay, there there is such a spirit of love. There is no motive for selfish gain. Would the enemy speak? This? It's the same thing that we would teach people in a priority time, like when you're praying and you're trying to discern is that a good idea? Is that me, is that my flesh, or is that God speaking? Like, okay, well, line it up with scripture. If it's to go, you know, ask someone for forgiveness, or to be gracious, or to serve, or to, you know, give, it's probably not the enemy. That would be in alignment with God's character. And so I think in those early days I had to keep going. This might be new to me, but it is doctrinally sound, right, it actually lines up with scripture. Even though it it's, even though I've not experienced this, what does that actually say about how much my God loves us and what is available to us?
Speaker 2:So that first experience, it was just me. You weren't with me Right, six, seven months later you come back to Bethel with me. We're walking through the lobby in this same third-grade teacher is walking her children through and she recognizes me and she goes oh children, do you remember? And you know, this is, you know, pastor Chris. And and she says, you know, do any of you have a word for Pastor Chris?
Speaker 1:And this is a new school year? I think, yeah.
Speaker 2:So new kids, not the same ones, yeah and so again, get the voice memo out, record this. And this is just what a third-grade child in a lobby walking to class says to you and I. I saw the two of you as flowers. There was a big fire, but you just walk through the fire and brought everything back to life and back to normal. You made it even better than it was at the beginning. I also saw that you were slow, slow to anger and very gentle. A third-grader said that. I mean, it's phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah, and again, some of this.
Speaker 1:You know, in those moments when you're trying to do the right thing and yet you don't necessarily have, you've not made it to the other side, you don't know the outcome, it was just like a little God wink to say I see you and you know I'm with you.
Speaker 1:And so I guess, just in those ways, as you know again, because you and I talk all the time, I think one of the I don't know, one of the reasons I haven't, I can't, I don't know that I can articulate, just I don't think it's why we went through the crisis, but I think in God bringing all things together for to good, for to those who love him, that this is one of those things that, if we hadn't have been at a place of absolutely not in control of our future, that we might have just been too busy or to feeling too much in control, to to allow the space and the focus to say like, okay, how is God actually working in this?
Speaker 1:And it is new, but it's beautiful and it's consistent with Scripture and, honestly, even to walk in a place where there is just a level of joy and peace, you know, in in the, the journey that we had in being in different environments that were more familiar with this and that had you know they're like anything you can take something out of context. You can. You can take something to an extreme, but in a in a way of they were trying to be good stewards and teach some very responsible ways to To learn and and to know that all of us can do this.
Speaker 2:But there's some wisdom and there's some boundaries and well, and I think what's incredibly important about that word stewardship that you just used is we have to place Ourself kind of in the flow of God's activity.
Speaker 2:And so we were in a place where we didn't have extra income.
Speaker 2:We were in a place where we were trying to save dollars and figure out how to stretch dollars, but because there was such a desperation that we had to hear from God, we would take trips to Bethel and then, whatever city we were in, we would, you know, go to churches that we felt like you know were churches that were in tune with the spirit and the way that God speaks, and we were placing Ourself kind of in the flow of the river so that we would have the opportunity to hear the voice of God and in wherever the river flows, then what you do see is along the banks of the river, then there's green grass and and things are flourishing, and so one of the things I would just encourage people is in your wilderness, don't get stuck, don't stay where you are, don't make excuses, don't retreat.
Speaker 2:You've got to put yourself among God's people. You've got to put yourself, you know, where it would be most common for you to be found, where it would be most common for someone to have the spirit of God move upon them, see you, recognize you and then give a word to you.
Speaker 1:Chris, one of the things and I don't know if this is useful to anybody else, but I think has been a way for us.
Speaker 1:I think what we kind of feel like our journey and purpose is is to Bring together the beauty of both, the absolute and errancy of the word of God and the, the need for us to know the word, to be in the word, to handle rightly the word that that is in no way Discounted or or changed, but to bring this beautiful compliment.
Speaker 1:That is also how do you steward your relationship with the Holy Spirit and how do you become sensitive to him and and this, the, the gifts that you referenced earlier in the passage in first Corinthians, how do we, how do we take that spiritual stuff and use it? And I think one of the things that and again, this is just more, this isn't Measurable and it's more of an analogy, but what? What I've said is okay. In some ways it's opened our eyes. I'll tell me, if you agree, but I'll use our as the, as the word there that for a lot of our ministry, with the best of intentions, we wanted to help people and when people would come forward for prayer, we, we were doing all that we could, but I think in hindsight it was almost like we were praying For people to be able to cope with their pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah not actually believing that God could do something to about it. And again there's scripturally examples. You know he did not remove the thorn from Paul's flesh. There are still answers that are no but the the analogy that I have it or not yet or not yet.
Speaker 1:It to me this is this is the difference in our, our 25 years prior. If this is the ground floor at my hand and the prayers in our first 25 years were to write here, let's just say that God answered 50% the way that we want it like. We prayed and we got a yes, I'm like okay. So if that's there that we got, you know right here 50% answered, 50% not answered. What I've just found and I I can't exactly explain all of the reasons why, but in in our newer journey and our newer Connections to bodies of faith that had a little bit more understanding of the Holy Spirit and again, not not over emphasizing it, but had that balance of word and spirit that if that's that same bottom floor there, if here was the prayers here, they're now here like no, we're asking God, I mean, do we really believe in miracles? Do we really think he still heals or does he not heal anyone anymore? Okay, they pray with a level of faith and you know what, about 50% of their, there's still plenty of no's, there's still plenty of not, yet there's still plenty of I don't know. Scratch my head.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know why God let this happen. But if it's 50% and you started here, there's just, there's just something in that and, honestly you know, a joy in a lot of a sense of a sense of peace that that, honestly, is greater than what we had experienced in the, in the culture of Even a church that we had created, right. So I just there's something that we, you know in the, in the way that we would say taste and see in your priority time, like, if you think that you know the word of God is broccoli, um, what if it's filet mignon? Like, taste and experience it. Sometimes you, you, you think you know what you're tasting, you don't, and I think that's really kind of what we're saying in this avenue as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, again, um, when we pray, and we use the word pray for healing, and and you know I battle this, I'm sure you battle this we all battle this at different points in time and I don't understand, maybe, why this is our default, but there's a certain level of Doubt or hesitancy. Can you do this? Well, of course we know he can. Will you do this? I hope so, and and. And. Then you know, there's a lot of times you're praying for, whether it's stage four cancer to be healed, or or whether it's, you know, a broken marriage to be healed, or or whatever it might be, but you're praying for something that, um, it needs a level of God's intervention. It needs a level of you know God to, you know, release the gift of faith for God, to release the gift of healing, for God to do something in honestly, before this experience for us, there were just some categories that I was just hopeful or wishful and that I would pray the prayer, but I would probably pray the prayer more from a place of Resonation that you know this Probably is not going to happen, but in case God is super, super kind today, you know I'm gonna pray this and I know he can, uh, and I pray that he will. But, but I'm still, you know, a little bit from a place of doubt and, um, I would just say what we've seen Is God increases one's faith and we don't look at the size of the mountain, we look at the size of our God, and then we trust that our God is bigger than the mountain, that our God can move the mountain, but then also we don't put the burden that you know God's gonna answer every prayer the way we want it answered and God's gonna heal every person the way we want them healed. That there is a mystery to it all.
Speaker 2:Uh, there is something that I don't understand, but I need to do what I do understand, and that is God has told me to pursue love. God has told me to earnestly pursue the spiritual gifts. God has told me, especially to pursue prophecy, and so I just need to take him at face value, trust him, grow into this as much as I possibly can, and then believe that he's going to answer. And when he doesn't answer, I'm still gonna trust him. When he doesn't answer, I'm still gonna believe. When he doesn't answer, I'm gonna keep praying. But that's where desperation comes in play. We refused For the answer to be no. In our wilderness, we believe that there was a greater reason, greater reason, for us going through the wilderness, and that God was going to get us through the wilderness. God was going to get us on the other side, and so we just kept believing, and the more we kept believing, god would give us what we needed to believe a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, chris, as we wrap up this particular episode, I would just maybe want to finish with just saying, you know, there were times that, yes, through this, god was encouraging us and we would have, like I said, and, and honestly, you began to be a really good steward of those words that were given to us and you mentioned voice, memo, wing, and and we weren't giving prophetic words, we were just receiving, and we were just hanging in there like we were not at our like, you know, flexing our spiritual muscles, like we're doing fantastic. We were like, no, this is a wilderness and we, we need to hear from the Lord and we need that. And there are times when you're going through your wilderness that you just need to borrow someone else's faith, and that's, that's what we encountered. There were times where, yes, god was building up our faith, but there were times that we just came and said can you know, can we borrow your faith? Ours is pretty low right now, and so I just want to encourage you.
Speaker 1:You know, if you're in the Memphis area, come and borrow our faith. God has built it up as we've come on the other side. If you're not in Memphis, you know it is important to find a family of God that can be that family, that that you are strong when when they are weak, and they are strong for you when you are weak, and that's a part of the body Helping us in those times that we're going through wilderness.
Speaker 2:And one of the most important things you said is we were just the receiver in this season. So if you don't know all this stuff, you don't understand all this stuff, that's fine, just be the receiver. But I would just ask that you elevate your prayers and you just say God, give me more than I even understand. God, you know, and in this way, like what we're seeing is okay, god, you use this picture of a mountain and, and you know, if you ever drive through Colorado or other mountainous regions, you know a mountain is massive and you know it's just, it is a immovable object. Okay, and there are times, whatever that source of adversity is in your life I mean, it just looks like, feels like a mountain, that that you do not have it in you, uh, to bore through this mountain. You don't have it in you to climb over this mountain. You don't have it in you to go around the mountain and in in this moment, you don't have to know a lot, you just have to say God, I can't, but you can. And and God speak to me and God, you know, reveal yourself to me and God, show me. And in most of the time when God answers a prayer, it's not like just this cognitive answer. He does say, I'll show you, and he takes you on a journey. And one of the things I would encourage is we talk more about the prophetic. I did. Someone taught me to voice memo and I have probably voice memoed 80% of the words I've received over the last five years and I've transcribed those and I probably have a document that's 250 pages or more. Now here's what's important Every word in those prophetic words are not accurate there.
Speaker 2:We see in part, not in whole. There are some things that people said and you know they're painting a picture. There are some things people said that maybe didn't resonate. But I didn't focus on what didn't resonate. I focused on what was kind of a. It hit the target. It was like a laser focus and again, oftentimes it's not about prediction. People weren't necessarily predicting this is gonna happen by this particular moment in time and this is how it's gonna happen.
Speaker 2:It was giving a picture of what God is doing and then in that picture it gave us both hope and faith and then it gave us a way to prepare and then actually be a part of the solution, be a part of. We've got to cooperate with God in bringing these words into fullness. And so, wherever you are in your journey and we pray that you're in a good place and that you're not in a season of wilderness or adversity at this moment but you know someone who is, and someone out there right now feels hopeless, they feel alone and they need to believe that God cares and that God still speaks. Would you invite them to listen to this podcast, if there's nothing else from this podcast, and we'll share more words with you. But you've heard a couple of testimonies that are unexplainable, testimonies that God finds us wherever we're at, and I wanna kind of close this with one last testimony.
Speaker 2:You and I were in Washington DC. We're at dinner at a table with about 10 different people. We know one couple at the table, we're there hosting some people from China and we Can't make this stuff up, Right we are the silent participants and at the end of the dinner this woman comes up.
Speaker 1:This is like on our way to the parking lot.
Speaker 2:Right and introduces herself her name's Claire and she just this is in Washington DC and she just so happens to be from Bethel church in Reading, where we've been. And she says God gave me a picture for you and, if it's okay, I would like to share it with you. Now notice the way she introduced that. She didn't say God said. You know she didn't act. She's like I think God gave me a picture for you and, if it's okay, I'd like to share it with you. And she said I saw a sword being pulled from your back. It was pulled all the way out. It was pulled out because it should have never been there in the first place. And she closed by saying she was supposed to tell me that it is over. Now we've told you our story. For a random stranger, for a random stranger to have this picture, have the courage, have the boldness, have the faith to share it. But then, for that definitive word, it is over.
Speaker 2:Someone watching this needs to hear that word for you today it is over, and so I want to speak, even prophetically, to the listeners today that if you are in a place where you feel like the wilderness ahead of you is so long and that you're never gonna get out of this wilderness, I wanna say to you today it is over, that he is going to expedite your journey and that he is going to get you through this quicker than your mind tells you is possible, and that the past is over and your future is beginning today.
Speaker 1:Well, I hope this has been an encouragement to you. Thank you so much for joining us on Unwasted Pain and we'll see you next time.