Unwasted Pain
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we delve into the depths of human experience and explore the intricacies of unwasted pain. In our podcast, "Unwasted Pain," we tackle the universal yet often misunderstood topic of pain and provide insights, support, and guidance for those seeking to navigate the challenges it presents.
Unwasted Pain
Impact of Identity
In the last leg of our conversation, we delve into the concept of identity deeply rooted in something unshakeable. We conclude by stressing the importance of sharing our stories, admitting our mistakes, and applying God-given truths to our lives. This episode is a testament to the power of faith, resilience, and understanding of our identity in Christ during times of adversity.
Hello and welcome to Unwasted Pain. This is Karen and Chris Conley. It is great to be back again with you today and thank you so much for tuning in with us for another edition of Unwasted Pain. We were talking about all of the different places that we have gone so far in this podcast, but there's one kind of reoccurring theme throughout both of our ministries that we haven't directly addressed so far as we've talked about Unwasted Pain. That really is the topic of identity and how it plays into the hard places in our lives. That's what we hope to accomplish this week on this particular episode of Unwasted Pain.
Speaker 2:As we talk about identity, it's something that it impacts each of us in a unique way from the different roles that we play. As Karen and I went through our crisis and now we're five years kind of through it and not quite through it, but very close to kind of fully establishing, writing a new chapter, I would say that you have really been the hero in our restoration story, that there were times when I wasn't at my best, there was times that I was devastated, and really wrestling with it rocks you to your core, so it does influence how you feel about yourself, which obviously, in many ways, is your identity. So in some ways, I needed the strength of your identity, of you being strong and grounded in who you were, to help me when, in that way, the storm was making the boat rocky. Actually, today, I wanted to flip the tables and have me kind of interview you and really get your perspective in this particular situation.
Speaker 2:The crisis happened. There was no part that you played in the crisis happening. Unfortunately, you were just kind of a recipient. You were collateral damage maybe in some ways. And yet the day that I was fired and had to give you that news, what immediately went into your mind that moment. I mean, I gave you the most unexpected. We thought we would retire here. We never, once, ever, ever expected or considered that I would leave that meeting with that outcome.
Speaker 1:That's not the question I thought you were going to start with. But what did I think in that moment? I mean literally what I thought. I mean it was a Sunday afternoon, got a phone call from you as you were on your way from the meeting where you were fired and headed home, and I went into problem solving mode, honestly of just my first thought was we're 48 hours from leaving to take our daughter to her college orientation and she cannot carry the weight of this into this event. She does not need to take that pain with her and her first experience at college be with the weight of that on it.
Speaker 1:We used to talk about with our kids there's some suitcases that are too heavy, you're not meant to carry them, and we'd say that that suitcase is too heavy for you, and so this was something that just I think in the moment. As you know, we have different roles in our lives. The role as mother or father is that protector. I think that was kind of the first place that I thought, obviously wanting to rush to your side and and not really prepared to know what that would entail or like how do I be present and support you while also navigating, guarding her for that from that window of time.
Speaker 2:I mean, in many ways, the reason why I started with that question is it? It really gives insight into just all the different roles that you play. And so, immediately in that moment, you didn't think about yourself. Yes, I think you did think about me, but you immediately went and thought about our daughter because, just okay, in 48 hours there's a college orientation and we need to protect her.
Speaker 2:And so, through this process, in a season of adversity first, and I came right into alignment with you in agreement about, okay, we've got to protect Anika. And so we literally acted like nothing happened for 48 hours. And then, you know, we called our son and he was away at college but was going to be joining us on this trip and had to let him know. But it was just like you said, it was problem solving mode. You know that has really been a pattern throughout this process and in some ways, you know as far as getting to how it impacted you and your identity. I want to get there a little bit later in this podcast, but I would love for you to continue to play out just how you processed this information and went through the different relationships and how you began to think about, in many regards everyone else before yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I'm happy, obviously, to do that. I think what I think about when I think about identity from my place, in our story and in any type of pain that somebody's going through, there's obviously the person that's at the point of impact and then the circles that are connected to them. And I mean, interestingly, we worked at the same place and so you were fired, and I don't think they remembered, but I was fired too, so we both lost our jobs. But I think, from that identity piece and one of the things that we, you know, it may be a divorce, it may be the death of a family member, it may be the loss of a job, it may be a relocate there's so many different types of things that get us in a place where we're trying to get our footing.
Speaker 1:But I think for me you're right there is, I think, kind of that first survey, of kind of triage of okay, so how does this impact my daughter? How does this impact my son? How does this impact my husband? How does this impact our finances? How does this impact, you know, different friendships and relationships? Who do we not need to communicate with out of honoring other people? Who do we need to communicate with, out of honoring other people. So you know, I don't know if that's personality driven or if that's just my role as a mom and a wife, but I think that's probably something that when just hard things happen that you're trying to kind of go, okay, like, let me just kind of feel my way in the dark and go take a deep breath and survey where we're at before we move forward, so that I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker 2:It does. I mean, I think what I'm really looking for here is when someone encounters unexpected adversity crisis. You know setback, there are certain things that you know. You got to kind of take the pulse and the temperature of things in order to be able to process and make quick decisions in the immediate, before you can even deal with your heart. You know, because there were things happening in your heart simultaneously as this, but you couldn't just in that moment retreat and just go, wait a second.
Speaker 2:This hurts and it hurts me really bad, and if I go and just maybe crawl in the bed for three days, we didn't have that luxury, All right, but I think what you just played out just shows there's a there's times. It's appropriate to compartmentalize in order to do what's best for other people, but then, at the same time, we need to not be forgotten in the process. You've got to come back when the time presents itself and really deal with the level of hurt or that identity is going to be forever damaged and not be able to heal appropriately in order to really see what God wants to do through it.
Speaker 1:Sure, and not to be a spoiler alert, but you know we're going to spend this episode really talking about it, maybe more from a female perspective, and but there's obviously the flip side, because there were things in our particular situation that again extrapolate to lots of different situations of how a man processes tragedy and loss and pain differently than a woman does.
Speaker 1:The roles that we play, whether you're in a traditional or non traditional, I think there's still a lot of things that bear true, and I think one of the things that I had to process in that evaluation of things was acknowledging that the way that I processed the pain and the way that you processed it was different, and part of that, I think, is because you are a man and you were the provider and you felt, you know, regardless of who brought home, what money your God given desire and and makeup was to protect your family, and that in a way that is different than the way that God has wired me as a woman to protect our family, I think we both are protectors, but in different ways, Sure.
Speaker 1:So in that way, I think one of the things I had to realize in that not only the role, in just the way God has made you as a man and me as a woman is different. Also, our family stories are different and so I also had to have enough awareness to say this is going to hit you differently because of some of the pain in your past. Then it's going to hit me. So I think there's just and again, I am not a counselor, you know I tell people all the time. Just because I'm a pastor I can give you wise, biblical, you know wisdom, but I am not a counselor. So I don't have all the emotional stuff figured out, but I know enough to know that there were pain points in your life and that something with your character being attacked and that was going to trigger some old wounds. And so I think there was that part of me as a wife and as a mom looking at the situation and having to say what is the? There's the presenting problem, but it has ripples differently for different people.
Speaker 2:Right. So again, we'll get into the identity part of this. But you know I give you that call on Sunday afternoon. We decide on the phone that you know we need to not say anything for the next 48 hours until Anika goes to orientation and then on the backside of that we would tell her. But because our stories are different, because there's different triggers, what were some of your greatest fears? Because, you know, the next morning you got up and gave me a very, I think, powerful word that I believe was I mean, 100% from the Holy Spirit. I think God just spoke through you to me. But I believe that what you said and I'll let you reference what you said I believe it probably was also driven out of some of your fears of how I might respond as a fighter.
Speaker 1:You know, I think there's two, maybe three or four I can think of three in this moment Times in our marriage where I opened my mouth and I didn't have the wisdom to. I mean, I've said a lot of stupid things, but what I'm referring to here of I think the Lord just gave me words in that moment, that I did not have the wisdom or the ability to know it wasn't just my own good idea.
Speaker 1:I think, that just the Holy Spirit really did protect us in that moment. And what I said to you the next morning and you're right, there's definitely in reflecting back, you're right, there's definitely. I know you, I know how you're wired, I know your strengths, I know your weaknesses, but in that moment I just said I think what I said was I have one request of you and that is that you will walk through this in such a way that if God were to ask you to write a book on forgiveness, that you would not disqualify yourself. And again, I mean, we were 12 hours into the middle of unbelievable like it doesn't even feel like it's real kind of stuff. And so I don't know you know where that came from.
Speaker 1:Except I guess I do have the sense of I just I don't want to step out of God's will. I don't want something really bad has happened, but I don't want us, in our pain, to become the problem. I think that was probably the overarching thing was like I don't know, I don't know what's happened, I don't know how this is going to be resolved. This doesn't. This is seems so out of bounds and so wild, and how did we even get here? But you know, by that time we had had five months of unbelievable happening, you know, in the life of High Point. So I think there was just something of like we knew that we were under spiritual attack, and so I think maybe there's some of that that you know.
Speaker 2:But to go to the core of the identity question. I believe that statement came out of your identity Maybe try to elaborate on that like what were you? What was the reservoir that you were depending upon? That you had, you know, over years upon years, upon years, cultivated a relationship with God, spent time with God, spent time in his words, spent time in prayer. That allowed your identity in that moment to not be shaken, for you to kind of be, you know, stable on the rock, so to speak, in order to speak that kind of truth.
Speaker 1:You know, I think that it's the type of thing and this is the hardest part about telling our story or trying to encourage people. You know, we always say people don't change until it costs you too much not to change, and that, and that's so, stinks for humanity. Because, because what I want to say to people is you need to work on your, you need to invest in your walk with the Lord now, because there will be seasons of adversity. And in a great God's kindness kind of way, early in our ministry, when God brought Clyde into your life, we had a taste of what it meant to walk with the Lord and saw that it was not a religious duty or religious obligation, but it was an invitation into a beautiful relationship with the only person who will never disappoint you. And that that just day in, day out, spending time with the Lord over the 20, whatever years it had happened.
Speaker 1:I think, in that moment, when all hell was breaking loose and people you know again, very few people, but just a few loud people publicly were saying things, I knew who we were and I knew who we weren't, and I knew that what was being said wasn't true. And so in that way, it's like in the middle of all this. Our job is just to stay steady, like you. When you're being attacked it's natural to want to, you know protect and lunge out and refuse, and you know all the things that are natural to you in that. But I mean, I don't know the better analogy to give than but like we talked all the time with our kids that like one of our kids would bait the other, you know Onika would bait Mark. She'd say something and she'd say it quietly, or she'd say it without us knowing she was doing something that was antagonistic. She would do it in such a way that Mark would just take the bait and he would respond.
Speaker 1:There goes the hook line and sinker he would respond and he would be, and we would be like all over Mark's case.
Speaker 2:And he thinks he's the big fish, but she's really, really mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so that's what I didn't want to be. I just I didn't want, because Mark would do something in trying to defend himself or like again, like he would. Just his reaction would be so overbearing that we were always looking at the reaction instead of what the real impetus was.
Speaker 2:It's like in sports, like in basketball, if you get a technical foul, it's almost always the guy, the second guy, that gets the technical, because his reaction is so greater. It's what the ref sees, but they don't see the one that instigated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean, I don't know of a better picture than that, but that's what I just thought. God sees us and our job right now is to not do anything stupid out of our pain, and so that's. You know, if I could tell anybody anything, don't do anything stupid in your pain, and that's so hard because out of the pain and we've talked about this on other podcasts you know you want to respond, not react, but I think that's really and we've also said it's so easy to take a small problem and turn it into a big problem.
Speaker 2:It's so easy for the problem to get worse quickly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think you know the other thing is in this, I think, where the identity piece. You know, if you're listening to this podcast and you're not in a season of pain, then yay, you know, please hear me like. You will never regret the time that you spend, you know, developing your relationship with the Lord. It's just, you know, let that be a friendship that develops, because in those moments, you know everybody in a crisis.
Speaker 1:Their first question is usually like how could God let this happen and how could a good God do this? And he must not be a good God Like we go to these like big questions when we can't understand something. And again that just, am I gonna believe everything that I have believed for the last 25 years or am I gonna in one day, because something painful happened, throw it all out the window? And that is where that just consistent time with the Lord and just putting good things in and not in keeping bad things out I knew, like, is your faith ever really tested if everything is good in life, like I've had 20 years of blessings? And this is really one of the more challenging things that's happened to me. I'm not throwing my faith out the window because I don't understand how this is happening.
Speaker 2:Well, in literary circles you know they talk about the middle chapter that oftentimes everyone, someone in their life, has that middle chapter where everything went wrong. They have the middle chapter where the adversity comes in, and it's really, what do you do leading up to the middle chapter? That prepares you for the middle chapter. And then what do you do? You know, through that chapter and then in the second half of the book, how do you respond in such a way that what happened in the middle? It didn't set you backwards.
Speaker 2:What happened in the middle, it was that those analogies of it's an obstacle that turns into an opportunity, it's a setback that turns into a setup, and that you are transformed through the experience in even a greater way. And then it becomes just another mile marker of the greatness of what God does in and through your life. You know, in the world of identity, I think people tend to ask one of these three questions. Sometimes people ask all three or two of the three, but when something goes wrong, people ask this question what did I do wrong? Second, sometimes they ask am I the problem? And then, third, why did this happen to me?
Speaker 1:Sure sure.
Speaker 2:Now, knowing you the way that I know you, a in this one you didn't do anything wrong, so I don't think you asked that question and because of that I don't think you asked, you know, the second question. Am I the problem? But did you ever ask that third question why did this happen to me?
Speaker 1:Can I answer that? But can I go back a question?
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Remind me of that one because I'll forget.
Speaker 1:What did I do wrong? I do think that deserves a moment of attention. You know, did I, in this particular case, ask that question? Probably not immediately. I mean, there were so many other, like dominoes and things going on that didn't directly relate to me, but I one of the things that I feel like is a very healthy thing that I have had to ask in different situations of okay, what is my responsibility in this? And I think one of the best pieces of wisdom that was ever given to me was the fact that God does not hide conviction.
Speaker 1:Now, what we do with it is an entirely different story, but it feels like people are either geared to like blame themselves for everything or blame themselves for nothing. It feels like most human beings don't hit like a really middle, a little a middle spot, and some of it is like everything in life has happened and I'm, you know that's bad, it's because of me and it must be me and I must have done it, and that's not a healthy place to live. And then those that say I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything wrong. It's really a protective mechanism, like they're just unwilling to. I don't know if it's a fear of failure. I don't know what that is, you can maybe tell me.
Speaker 1:But I think that middle ground of understanding your pain might be partially because of something you've done. You may have played a role in it, and that's human, that's just life Like. We all make mistakes, we all do bad things, we all you know, and have unintentional, whatever the case may be. But that question, if that is you to be able to say, okay, lord, what do I, what do you wanna show me? And again, he doesn't hide conviction and he will show you, and that conviction is not a bad thing, that's a good thing, because that puts you one step away from just being able to lay it at his feet and say, god, I agree with you, I am so sorry, please forgive me. And then to be able to be on the way to making it right, instead of just holding this heaviness of knowing that you have done something that you have not made right with somebody. And so I think that. But blaming yourself for something you didn't do is not a healthy thing either.
Speaker 2:Right, we talk about all the time the term normalized conflict. We also need to normalize that when something goes wrong, it's rarely 100% in someone else's fault or 100% our fault. There is some interchange there where, you know, I have to take ownership of my role, of my responsibility in this particular situation. You know, I feel like we were confident that we had not done anything ethnically wrong. You know we didn't feel like we had Ethically Ethically.
Speaker 1:Oh, I mispronounced it Sorry. Yeah, you did.
Speaker 2:And we didn't feel like we had compromised anything in the area of just what it means to be a person of love, what it means to be, you know, trying to do the right thing. You know we made some mistakes in the process and I would give anything to go back and change those mistakes, and there's some things that I would love to have led differently. But in this I do think people then quickly you referenced this earlier they come back to this question why did this happen to me? And in that there's this tendency then to not trust God but to blame God, Because this was such a unique set of circumstances. How did you process that?
Speaker 1:I guess I didn't ask it in the I don't know why. I don't know why, but I don't really recall kind of this woe or the why. God, could you know that kind of why? I feel like it was more like God. Why Like you? Don't you know?
Speaker 1:I don't think you caused this, but, god, don't let me go through this journey and not learn what you want me to learn or become who you want me to become. I guess in that way, when we say, never waste a wound, I didn't wanna waste the wound. I didn't wanna just like put my head down and survive this and not grow in the way that God. Well, like God, you know, if what do they say? If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, like this isn't gonna kill me and I want it to make me stronger. And honestly, in some ways, I think I I knew that you needed to me to find strength. I knew that you know me curling up in the fetal position wasn't gonna help you and that this was I needed to be. I needed to find a healthy way through this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean honestly, I mean again, not just because it's something the husband's supposed to say, but you've been someone I respect my entire life, but this has honestly been your finest hour.
Speaker 1:I mean literally.
Speaker 2:I mean in the sense of what you represented and what you have done for me, for our family, for the Lord, for our ministries, has been extraordinary.
Speaker 2:And so I do think that's why you know it's really important that in this story, in many regards, you know, if we were to write a book, honestly I think you should be the primary voice, because it's really a story of how God used you to help me stay together through the process and to keep believing and then, you know, hold our family together in those ways.
Speaker 2:So, given that you know, there's certain ways that when you're in the midst of a crisis, people say things that they're trying to be helpful, but it's not very helpful, okay, and the statement I'm about to give you is you know, I understand the statement in its context, but a lot of times people take a statement out of its context and in its context it's a great statement, but a lot of times people say something like this Jesus plus nothing equals everything. And when you've lost everything, you know, I find it difficult to really put that statement in that context and for it to mean what maybe someone intends, for it to mean Having lost everything and we were back in a place of just having to go back to who we are in Jesus. How do you process that moment? How do you process that statement? How do you work through that?
Speaker 1:You know, I guess it was John DeFour who taught us the phrase that oh, now I'm gonna forget the phrase that.
Speaker 2:Give me the gist of it and I can probably pull it up.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, I just totally a little blanked on it.
Speaker 2:It's not what others say to you that matters now. No, well, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's a very good one. All right, let me just say it then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, say it, go ahead, it's not what others say to you that matters. It's what you say to yourself about what others say to you that matters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so that's one we need to remember in this yeah, that's 100% it, and just in that sense that for us, in this particular context, that really, yes, jesus plus nothing equals everything. I get that, but that if God loves me and I love him, therefore I'm okay, and that I think I had to say to myself about that was the phrase I was trying to draw.
Speaker 2:I never really liked that phrase.
Speaker 1:But it helped. Oh sorry, it helped me.
Speaker 2:I know I'm affirming you. It always resonated with you and I was always trying to add something to the phrase.
Speaker 1:But I think that's honestly. There were things that I did in, I mean, when everything is off and I honestly I haven't lost close family members, I haven't dealt with a lot of the pain that you have dealt with, and so this was really my first experience of trying to find my way in the midst of a storm, and I had to learn to put good things in. I had to learn to keep worship music on and I'm not generally someone who likes a lot of noise, but the silence would let my mind start replaying lots of things that were not helpful or healthy, and so it was keep reading, like keep good things reading, keep music on, keep podcasts on. It was just like really drowning out the enemy's attempt to discourage me, or even just not even the enemy, just me replaying things, but that statement of, and so go back to the statement for a second it's repeated again and say why it means so much to you.
Speaker 1:If I love God and God loves me, I just I push it. You're gonna have to edit this.
Speaker 2:No, you're good, god loves me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, God loves me and I love him. Therefore, I'm okay. That's it. I don't know why I'm having such a hard time with it, but good thing I'll just say to myself he loves me and I love him. Therefore it's okay.
Speaker 1:Even had to screw that up three times, because to me what that says is it does not matter what's going on around me. As long as he loves me and I love him, I am gonna be okay. And so I had to tell myself a lot I'm gonna be okay, chris is gonna be okay, like he is not going to let us fall, like we are in His hands, he loves us and we're safe. A lot of times you feel untethered and we've talked about that before and I think I just had to keep reminding myself that we were okay. And I think a lot of times this is a Beth Moore. I remember this illustration from her.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you imagine your greatest fear and that fear can actually just be what paralyzes you, even though that fear is probably never gonna happen. It's something that just can haunt you and you just live in this paralysis and I guess I could have feared that we were gonna be without a home or that we were gonna go bankrupt, or that we didn't have a place to lay our head, or our kids were gonna have to be pulled out of college, and there were some things that were realistic in terms of the college thing that we certainly didn't anticipate our income to stop when we made college selections and stuff. But in that world of the illustration that she gave, her example was that her husband would have an affair with her best friend. I think was the example that she gave. And so she was like, so what if that actually did happen? Like literally, what would happen? Like, well, I'd lay on the floor and cry, I'd just be a basket case, I'd just be in the fetal position, okay. And then what? Well, I'd probably do that some more.
Speaker 1:And she goes through this whole series of then what and then what, and then what, and then what.
Speaker 1:And it's kind of like you just realize at some point you're gonna sit up, at some point you're gonna dry your tears, at some point, if God has breath in your lungs, you are gonna recover from even the worst thing.
Speaker 1:And I don't know, I guess just in this journey it was like he's not gonna let us fall off this planet and I don't know how this ends, but me playing doomsday isn't helping my husband or my children, and so I better find a way to just trust him.
Speaker 1:And when you didn't have it to give to me, if I had always been just dependent upon you and your strength and your faith. It would have been hard and I was grateful that I had my own root structure, my own faith, because you are strong. So often and there have been so many times I've leaned on you, but I wanted to be able to be that for you as well and that came because we both had our own relationship with the Lord. And you give me way too much credit in the whole process and say all the time that I was the hero, and I don't think I was. You were strong plenty of times when I mean I had moments, I had days, but I think it did help that we both had our own faith that had been cultivated so that there was something to stand on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, I think your faith has always been strong, but it it, it rose to the occasion I think, honestly, your family has, from your father, your grandfather on both sides there's a strong career in military and we say that with the highest amount of respect and honor that all the different ways that they have learned how to deal with big problems and to compartmentalize I think some of that you know, our skill sets that you brought into this and so you know there's just certain things that maybe you tapped into to help us walk through this together.
Speaker 2:But if we go back to that statement, jesus plus nothing equals everything. Honestly, our identity, yes, we need the relationship with Jesus, but Jesus also calls us, you know, to be on mission, also calls us to have a lot of different roles. You know we still have our identity in him, but we have different roles. It seems overly simplistic to just say Jesus plus nothing equals everything. Through this process, what did you learn? Are some things that, as God begins to restore us, what are the things that you need restored, you know, to really allow your identity to be complete in Christ? But then our identity is who we are, but it also influence and impacts what we do, and and what we do is an important expression of who we are.
Speaker 1:I may answer that a little bit differently. I think the mistake and again I'll take this back to God's placement of Clyde in our lives but I think, from a female perspective, that the the typical orientation to life is to find our identity in, you know, if you're single and you want to be married, it's in your marital status. Or if you're married, it's, you know, I'm a wife, you know, or I'm a mom, or it's in your job, it's in your career, it's I want to be a CEO and it, or if it's in your looks. And again, and I've taught a lot of this in Miss Perfect, the Women's Bible Study that I wrote, and and really the premise of that study is how do you discover God's purpose without the pressure? And that came because I realized that I for a long time tried to find my identity in other places and you know it was. I did want to be a CEO and so I thought I would feel good about myself if I was successful in the workforce. And then you know, you know if it's you know some people it's in marriage and that you know they want to be married. And then you know some it's being a mom, some it's. You know, even when we say beauty, you can feel very unattractive and still your aspiration is that you want to. You know, I will feel like I have meaning and purpose when I achieve a certain look or I lose a certain amount of weight, or like there's all these places that we, accidentally, are trying to find our identity, whether we have it and we're trying to hang on to it, or whether we don't have it and we long for it. We think that is going to be what gives us peace and so, in in the way that God protected me was that was my journey. Like growing up, I had career aspirations and that was where I felt like I would be at peace with myself if I could prove to myself and to others that I was worthy of that.
Speaker 1:And when Clyde came into our life and and and you know, I remember a specific conversation holding a newborn named Mark over a dining room table, when Clyde came to meet him and we at that time were trying to figure out, I think I was wrestling with what did it look like for me to work full-time, be a pastor's wife, be a mom and be a wife, and knowing that I came from a very performance driven background, it felt impossible for me to be successful in all of those roles at the same time. And I, because I found my identity in that job and I worked at Rhodes College as assistant director or associate director, I don't remember which one of admissions at the time, and I got a lot of strokes there. I loved what I did. I went, traveled, I spoke. I, you know, did event planning. I did, you know, scholarship reading, and it was lots of good. You know good job, good job, karen. And you know, when you're rocking a baby there's not much of that and so, but I remember him vividly saying whatever you do, karen, do not shift from finding your identity as the associate director of admissions at Rhodes to being Mark's mom or Chris's wife. The only place you will ever find your identity and not be and be satisfied is in the Lord. And he was reading my mail like that was internally. I couldn't have put those words to it, but that was the wrestle that I was having.
Speaker 1:If I leave my job, who am I if I don't have that title? And I'm just a mom, and that was my context. For other people they could care less about a job. They just want to make sure they're married and if they get divorced, who are they? If they're, if they're finding their identity and being a mom and they lose a child or their children grow up and leave the house, well then, who am I? And so I think what protected me was at that point, at age 25, that I had Mark.
Speaker 1:Maybe I was 26 by the time this conversation had happened. I had had 15 years of reorienting myself to go. My identity is not in any of those things. My job may leave. My children will grow up. I pray God does not pray God takes you and I at age 100 together and that I never have to live on this earth without you. But God forbid, something happened to either me or you that you and I the the one that remains hasn't lost their identity, that we still have purpose and that God has still has a reason for us here. So that is a long diatribe to say. I think that I was very fortunate that, because I had that seed planted 15 or 20 years earlier, that when everything was shaken though I lost a lot of titles and a lot of platform ish, whatever that was I knew that who I was was not in jeopardy so why don't we close with you pulling together?
Speaker 2:there's? There's a couple of points you know that deal with identity from your book, miss Perfect. That I think may be a good way to wrap this up as to if one is trying to bring their identity back into alignment with Christ and to anchor themselves by having their identity in Christ, how would you advise them to do that?
Speaker 1:you know, I think that the thing that happens when you if you're, if you're in that moment and you're trying to figure out who you are because there's pain in your life, usually there's a lot of things outside of your control, and that was true in our situation. Really, the only thing that you and I could do for a while was just rest in who we are and and and keep pouring those things in. And so you know, what does that look like? That? That looks like spending time with the Lord. That looks like, probably, if you're in that place of just trying to get your bearings, it may even mean finding someone who can can help help you begin that process. You could order my workbook and it can help take you through some of that, but it's just spending time with him in a relational way. It is finding some good, honestly pot. It's pouring truth in it's. It's, you know, silencing the lies and pouring in truth until you are able to be able to receive.
Speaker 1:How God views you. It doesn't really matter how anyone else views you, but if you understand that you are a daughter of the king, you understand that he has made you with the gifts intentionally. He made no mistakes when he created you. If you have places of pain, he wants to heal them and bring freedom to you. That he has a purpose and you can't. You can't screw it up, you can't miss it. He's. He is just such a God of redemption and restoration and using even the most painful things to bring good to others. It's, it's having to just honestly silence the lies and the, the self-doubt, and overwhelm that with what is actually true. So you know, those are the things that I think in in those moments of okay, if you're really struggling with who you are, that you've got to, you've got to flush out all the junk you're believing and get back to who you are and how he sees you well, I think one of the things I respect the most is that our circumstances didn't change who you were.
Speaker 2:It just revealed who you were in Christ, and we saw more and more of who Christ is. You know, be revealed through the process and I think that's God's goal for all of us is that there are times people will say that adversity either reveals the presence of or the absence of character, and I do believe adversity also builds character, but it is important for us to know that it's important to be prepared for adversity. You cannot live this life good enough to avoid adversity in a fall and sinful, broken world, and so what we do before the crisis enables us to remember who Christ is in the crisis.
Speaker 1:I think, maybe just in some closing words. You know, I think the the couple other thoughts is just refuse to be a victim. You, just if you are here, you have purpose and nothing good comes from being a victim, and no matter what that pain is, even in the most tragic losses. You know we have had the privilege and the the privilege in ministry of walking alongside people through some of the hardest and most gut-wrenching experiences, and so when I say that, I say it with even though I haven't walked through that. We have walked pretty closely with a lot of really, really hard situations and even in the hardest of them, god is going to use you. If you will just allow him to heal you, if you will allow him access and and just say you know, I come back to. I only have one chance on this earth. I have one life to live and I don't hear what pain we've been through. I want to. I want to live it in a way that I have no regrets and, when I put my head down on the pillow, that the Lord is pleased with me. And so that means get help. That means you might need help, you might need to help grieving, you might need help processing. You and I have have gotten helped so that we can stay healthy, but just don't choose to be a victim. You, that is a choice.
Speaker 1:And then the second thing I would say and I don't know why this is but and if it's just moms or not, but I find a lot of times our selflessness as moms means sometimes we won't do the things that we need to do to be healthy, and so actually us not taking care of ourselves is not selfless, because if we don't take care of ourselves, then we're not healthy and we are reproducing unhealthiness in those we love. Yeah, and so you know, it is not selfish to take care of yourself, and there were times I had to just go I what does Karen need to be healthy today? Whether Chris chooses to be healthy today or not, I can't make that choice for him. I can love him, but, man, if I need to go get on the treadmill and leave the apartment to just get out of here and just get some my bearings, then I need to do that. If I need to, like, take a walk right now, like what, there were days that I just had to say what do I need so that I can still be healthy to help you and that. So sometimes we won't do it for ourselves.
Speaker 1:And my last thing I'll say if you won't do it for yourselves, do it for somebody else, because moms usually will do that. I have to. I had to be healthy for our kids. There are times that you were like I have to be healthy for our kids, and so if you, getting healthy, you're not motivated enough for yourself, hear it right now. Your kids need you and their health depends upon you being healthy. How you walk through adversity and how, even if you've walked through it poorly, even you going back and acknowledging you walk through it poorly is a healthy thing. So there's nothing. Yes, never too late, but at the same time, we all want to protect our kids from as many wounds as possible, and that means we have to be healthy to not accidentally create more wounds in them yeah, one of the things that we hope that this podcast brings to you is it's more than kind of three points in a poem.
Speaker 2:What we're really trying to do is, by even tidying the podcast, unwasted Pain is just to pull back the curtains and say here's how we live through it, here's the things that God taught us through it, and we believe a lot of these are transferable. And so, in that regard, just as you listen to this, I hope you appreciate that not everything's packaged. We're trying to just kind of take the principles and the truths that God has given us and just give them to you, and so I would just encourage you please share this with people. Everyone knows someone that's hurting and no one likes for people to be in pain. So please share this podcast, please like it. Maybe you know if you can give a positive review, it will just help us help more people so that we don't live in the past pain and allow that past pain to be present in the future, but rather we want this pain to be unwaisted, so that we heal from that pain and we see that we have the ability to help others heal as well.