Unwasted Pain
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we delve into the depths of human experience and explore the intricacies of unwasted pain. In our podcast, "Unwasted Pain," we tackle the universal yet often misunderstood topic of pain and provide insights, support, and guidance for those seeking to navigate the challenges it presents.
Unwasted Pain
The Resilience Road
We tackle the topic of faith during adversity. Despite the daunting uncertainty and chaos, Chris and I share our personal experiences of leaning into our faith and trusting in God's faithfulness. We discuss how to support loved ones who are going through their own wilderness season, the importance of connecting with others, and the power of sharing our stories. This candid conversation is a reminder of resilience, perseverance, and hope, and we invite you to listen in and navigate the unknown together with us.
Welcome to Unwasted Pain. I guess by now you know I'm Karen and this is Chris, and you might know that if you've been a listener to this podcast previously, and thank you if you are. We hope and pray that this use of our time will be beneficial to others, that learning both from our own experiences as we bring different people and you interview different people in the life of this podcast, moving forward that just this whole idea that whatever we walk through in life, that the Lord will use it, he will redeem it and it will not be wasted, and especially, I think that's important to know when it comes to pain in our life. And so we've been on this journey, taking the windy road, telling you a little bit about our story, and hopefully have done a good job. Taking the timeless truths, the application, so it you know, our story is our story and it really is irrelevant to most people, but hopefully the truths will help you not only in your own journey of navigating pain that we all are going to face in life, and not just once, but you know it's a thing but also in hopefully helping other people. I think one of our desires after our last, the last segment of our journey is to be people who are more sensitive to other people in their pain and be the people that go the extra mile. And we want to encourage other people to go the extra mile. And you know, life is easy when it's easy, but when it's not, we need one another.
Speaker 1:And so in this particular episode if you're watching these in sequence and I don't know how they're released, but we just recorded one really kind of looking at the differences in how pain maybe impacts a family, from the role of a mom and a dad, or a husband and a wife, or just male and females, and just kind of the different ways that that that pain ripples itself through a family.
Speaker 1:And really, chris, this episode is really more me interviewing you, and I think the reason why I was thinking that we should record this particular podcast is because I think there's a lot of women that are married to husbands that maybe aren't able to articulate their emotional journey as well. I think one of the gifts that God has given me in you is just your transparency, your vulnerability, your willingness to talk through things and then just the amount of intentional learning that you have done and in just in your role in helping other people that there's some ways that I feel like you might be able to articulate some things, that if there is a woman who loves a man in a marriage or even boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever the case may be, that hearing you talk about how our pain impacted you might help them to understand better how to care for the men in their lives.
Speaker 2:Does that make?
Speaker 1:sense. So I think maybe the place to start in this kind of whole conversation. For you it was both a character attack and a and I'm not trying to use inflammatory words, but but you know, both your name and your, your living, were impacted by this situation, and so I don't know if maybe we could start with one or the other and just if you could articulate how that occurrence impacted you as a man, as a provider, as a husband, just ways that maybe, just in hearing a man express, okay, I was fired, what were the things that went through your mind as that? You know, you asked me, like in the first 24 hours, what went through your mind? Well, what went through your mind?
Speaker 2:like, what were the visceral things, what are the things that were immediate, and then a little bit, maybe down the road, maybe as a part B, Well, I mean, there's a certain things that I think have been built into the definition of what it means to be a man, and I think a lot of those things need to be revisited in a good way. I think we're losing some of those things. But you know, a man is only as good as his word. You know that would be something that I think I have, that has been built into me. You know that. You know you want to be a man. That you know your handshake means something. That you know if you agree upon something, then you are going to hold up your end of the deal. You know that what it means to be someone who is going to be honorable, and that you're gonna Can we time out?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The way that you said that if somebody wanted to splice the thing, there was just not the right pause when you said these things should be revisited. I might just have us go back and restart that question.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I just the way you said it it was hard to understand. Your context says that those things are important and they should be revisited, but the way that you said it, I don't know. I just felt like as I kept replaying what you just said, we might just start that question again. Is that okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what were those things that just immediately went through your mind in those first 24 hours?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I felt unfairly represented, misrepresented. It was something that, yes, I was fired, but I felt like I was honestly fired without cause. You know, I felt like it was more of a situation where I was betrayed. I wasn't fired for something I did, I was fired because of something someone else did. And then the ripple effect of that and then just, you know, in today's world, you know, everyone has a megaphone and there's just a different ability for something to go public or go viral, maybe in a way that it hasn't before, and that, you know, instead of being, you know, innocent until found guilty, in many ways nowadays you're guilty until proven innocent.
Speaker 2:And so the very first thing that happened to me is everything about my background kind of a blue collar background, underdog background is I wanted to fight, and when I say fight, I mean fight for what's right. You know I wanted to win the argument. You know I wanted to prove, you know, what I believe was true, instead of let the false narratives run rampant. But yet I really felt like, in this particular situation, totally against. You know what my temperament is, or my preference is. I felt like God told me, you know, to I use the phrase invite, don't fight. I was to invite them to follow but not fight them. I was to submit and surrender to a process and trust God with the process. Well, honestly, you know, good or bad, I'm more of a type, a personality, and you know I like to drive the car. You know I'm not good in the passenger seat and, and so everything is true, and so everything about me in this moment was sensing from the Lord that I was supposed to submit. But there's nothing that one and there's not a part of me that wanted to submit and and I wanted resolution quickly, but it didn't look like there was going to be resolution quickly and it kept looking like there's going to be.
Speaker 2:You know, this became a very tangled process and I didn't know if I was going to be able to untangle it and and so everything about it just was feeling out of control, and I mean, most leaders like to have control or be in control, and again, that can be. There's times that that can be. Someone can can misuse that. But it was something that you know, honestly, I was trying to lead in all the ways that I think God would have us to lead, but it was something that I just was devastated and was, in many ways, just almost.
Speaker 2:It was a surreal moment. It was like is this really happening? I can't believe this is happening, but yet, obviously, the reality is that it's happening, and I am afraid to even evaluate what the ramifications of this are. But you know, I needed you and I needed a handful of other people to help stabilize me, to help me not you know you mentioned this before to respond instead of react, and and so it was just something where you know, I think, our identity yes, a hundred percent my identity is in Christ.
Speaker 2:But I even believe, if you go back to the Garden of Eden, god gave Adam, you know, a job before the fall of man, and that he was have to have dominion over his creation and was to be a good steward of what God had given him, and and so I do believe that a part of our work and a part of our mission is something God given, it's given to us by God, and I think it's very difficult to grow into who God wants you to become, apart from any assignment, apart from you know the expression of that identity, and and now I will fully admit there were parts of me that had become kind of like High Point Chris, that it had become so much a part of my identity that I didn't.
Speaker 2:It would be hard to know who I was, apart from being the pastor of High Point Church, but at the same time, you know, in ministry. One of the things that's unique about ministry is that your character is a part of the qualification and we're supposed to be above reproach, and that who you are really determines the ministry you can do. And so to be attacked in your character, you know, is to lose the ultimate qualification of being above reproach.
Speaker 1:Chris, when you, when you think about this and and obviously that identity theme is really what we want to talk about today but when you think about just other people that you have helped over time, who have walked through challenging situations, what would you want to say to a another wife that was trying to help her husband in in the, in those first days of whether it's some type of news impacting career, in impacting provision, impacting their family? What would you say, as a man, to say, if you know, if, given my situation and what I walked through, this is these are the things that would be helpful for you, as a woman, to understand? That's different, because I I processed it differently. I processed, okay, do we have, you know, emergency savings? And you know, are we gonna be able to, how are we gonna be able to, you know, figure out and navigate just the financial flow of things.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't, even though I did work and I did lose a paycheck, I don't think I felt like, as a provider, I'm letting down my family, and I don't know if you did, but I feel like there's some of that, like that element that that just struck you differently as a provider. So what would you say, would be your wisdom to somebody else, helping a friend or a spouse in a situation like that yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's just to stabilize in the moment and to honestly in many ways by a time to try to create a picture and say listen, I'm with you first and foremost. I mean I taught on this yesterday. You know, out of exes three, god gives Moses assignment. He says here I am. Then God kind of clarifies the assignment, gets more specific with assignment. Moses hears it goes who am I? You know, like I don't want to do this. And then God answers his who am I question with I will be with you.
Speaker 2:And that phrase I will be with you. You need the people closest to you to say that. You need to hear God say I will be with you. You need your spouse to say it, you need your kids to say it, you need a couple close friends to say it.
Speaker 2:When other people are saying I don't want to be with you anymore, that is sometimes it feels like a knife in the back and sometimes it feels like a knife in the heart and both of them hurt.
Speaker 2:And when others are saying I don't want to be with you anymore or they're saying I don't know that I believe in you anymore, then you need a circle of people who say I believe in you, whatever this set of circumstances is, I still believe in you. In the only way we're gonna get out of this healthier and stronger is by believing in one another, not quitting on one another. And so I'm here for you, I'm not going to quit on you and we're gonna get through this together. And but what we need to do right now you use this word once before we have a little triage here and and we need to deal with the immediate, and then we need to kind of stabilize and see what are the, the most important decision that need to be made in the first, you know, 30 days, and then, once that first 30 days passes by, we need to, you know, kind of determine what is the ripple effect of this.
Speaker 1:So in those you know what you just said, I think it's like I feel the the intensity of that would be the difference between male and female I feel whatever. I mean.
Speaker 2:Obviously this is not necessarily a male female difference, but in our relationship my feelings are on a scale of plus 10 minus 10. Your feelings are more on the scale of plus 5 minus 5.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is gracious, because I used to be plus 2, minus 2 the fact that you just gave me a 5.
Speaker 2:You know, crisis does good things yeah and I mean, but I do like, I mean it's impossible for me not to feel it with the intensity I feel it, but then you got to channel that intensity into the right response instead of the wrong response.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that I remember and we've said this multiple times in our marriage, but I felt like it was particularly true in the moment of those.
Speaker 1:First, it's what you just articulated, but maybe let me give the opposite that doesn't work so well of I'm with you and I tried to do that, but I also think there is a part of me as a problem solver that can sometimes try to well, chris, let let me let me try to put myself in the position of the other people that were there, because surely there's a misunderstanding, and maybe they misunderstood, and maybe you misunderstood, and did you think about it this way and did you do? You know, and that was, I hope, didn't do much because it was painful, and so, if I could say, one of the things not to do is to decide you're gonna be devil's advocate and and in that moment, I think the first thing that that somebody needs and again, this isn't giving people like a blind pass to anything, but all of us are human and and those that are closest to us, we, we want them closest to us, we want them to believe in us, and so I think that was one of the things that you didn't need me going back and picking apart the conversation and you know of you being fired and saying, like well, what, if? Why didn't you say this? Or you could have said this, or you know we're in this situation because you wouldn't. You know, like there was, there was not. I, hopefully I didn't, you know, but I could just see sometimes in other situations where I have done that of like well, let me, let me put myself in their shoes and maybe you could have done this differently that in those moments, the first thing that you needed was the affirmation that we're in this together what was done was done yeah you know the games already been played.
Speaker 2:Monday morning quarter-backing it's not gonna help. That doesn't mean we're avoiding responsibility. It doesn't mean we're not gonna go back and look at it. It doesn't mean we're not gonna learn from it. Doesn't mean we're gonna not take responsibility for something we've always been willing to do. That you also need to know what each person's danger is.
Speaker 2:My danger is not admitting that I'm wrong. I'm the type of person that I can have 10 ideas and I kind of know on the front end only three of them are gonna really be good and only three of them are gonna work. But I needed 10 to get to those three and I'm okay that seven didn't work because three are gonna work really really good. And so, like I just I don't mind. I've never believed that. Like I'm always the smartest person in the room, I've never believed that. You know I don't like arrogance. Hopefully I'm not prideful, I'm. I try to value other people's opinions and listen. So my danger isn't always being right, and so you need to know what someone's danger is or isn't. But you're exactly right to that in that moment, in the immediacy of it, you need listen. The whole world can be against you and there's gonna be times. The whole world is against you, whatever the crowd is. You need your inner circle to be with you. The only way you're ever gonna survive is if your inner circles with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that phrase that you just said of like you know, know your, you know what your danger, and you've used that a lot over the years and I think it's such a, it's so helpful in those in in any situation, but especially in what we're talking about, of you know, in if somebody is, you know, always merciful their, their danger is never to be too you know, too judgmental.
Speaker 1:If somebody's judgmental, their danger is never to be too merciful. And so I do think that's a very valid point of just in caring for somebody, as if it's a wife caring for a husband, like you know you, you're gonna know your spouses what's what's, you know the worst version of them, what's their danger. And then the opposite, you don't need to worry about, you're not gonna swing the pendulum too far, and so just even operating in that way to understand like I don't need to worry about this end of the spectrum and how can I love and support them to help them be the best version of themselves. So, chris, you know, when you think about there's obviously the immediate, but then there's there was, you know it was not a short journey. Yeah, what are those things that you would say are different in what you, as a man, needed over time to be able to navigate a wilderness season yeah, I mean needed a plan.
Speaker 2:There are some things, and whether this is when someone loses a loved one or whatever, there are some things that people say that are well intentioned. That are just things you should never say, you know, like people would say, oh well, I mean now you get a nice little sabbatical. No, this was not a sabbatical. This was not a moment of rest. This was a moment of worry, stress, anxiety. This is a moment of my world's turned upside down. This is a moment of I've lost my name. I lost my reputation. This is a moment where I can't even get an interview, and so, to be at a place where you just felt like everything was out of your control, the one thing I could control was let's put a plan in place, even if the plan didn't work. Like I remember, we went through my phone and, you know, pulled out every contact imaginable and would ask people if they would you know, you know, consider and see if they knew of any opportunities and recommend us, and I mean it was probably 300, 400, 500 names or something, and just because of what had transpired it, it didn't work. The plan didn't work. There was really nothing there, but I just needed a plan, and if plan A didn't work, I needed plan B, and if plan B didn't work, I needed plan C. But to do nothing would have killed me.
Speaker 2:All right, in those windows of time where you know at least you're applying for like, it's easier to drive, you know, steer a car that is moving and the engine is cranked, versus trying to, you know, turn the steering wheel on a parked car. And so, in that regard, I would just say, don't wait for the perfect plan. You know, yes, I'm asking God to reveal, but I believe that with every step of obedience and what he has told me to do, the how becomes more clear. And so I would just say, yes, we also we needed to kind of have some promises from God. You know, like Genesis 50, 20, what man intended for evil, you know God is going to use for good, and we had to hang on to those promises. We had to hang on to the promises that our God is a God not a partial restoration, but of complete restoration, full restoration, even double restoration. And so there were certain promises that we were hanging on to, and so I needed the promises and I needed a plan.
Speaker 1:So when you talk about that in that realm, how would you say in the world of it let's take specifically in the faith world there could be times where, and again, every person is different and I'm not trying to lump every man in one category, you know of course that's ridiculous, but but in that world of, how would you suggest that so it doesn't feel trite and you know cliches worth of faith, versus somebody really supporting you and you know if this is a spouse, if this is a friend, how would you encourage them in that way, that it, that you know that it's not like what you're not saying is like you know, just go quote some verses to them and you know God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him. Like that's not, that's not gonna help. But what does that look like to? To encourage your faith and to help you when you're yeah, you know?
Speaker 2:you go from a world where you have a certain circle of friends because of work, you have a certain circle of friends just because of you know just different life dynamics and then a lot of times when something like losing a job or another major circumstance occurs, there's an interruption in that circle of friends and oftentimes you know friends don't know what to say, if to say anything, don't say anything, and and you've just lost so much contact with people and you've lost your rhythm, you've lost your routine and and I would just say that when it's family and it's friends, step in. You know, don't wait, don't discern, just be proactive, step in. And like I can't begin to tell you, there would be phone calls that I would receive from people. Just how much I needed that phone call. I needed to know that someone remembered, I needed to know that someone cared, I needed to know that someone was thinking about us, I needed to know that someone was willing to help.
Speaker 2:And so you know, just sometimes, honestly, you feel like a burden and you don't want to burden people and you don't want to bring your problems to people and stuff like that. But I just needed, you know, for people to say, no, this is our season to help you, you know. No, this is, this is not a burden like what we're here. We're, that's what a friend does. A friend walks with you in the good, the bad, the ugly, and so, in that regard, I would just say, whether you're a family member or whether you're a friend, make a mistake of being too proactive, make a mistake of calling too much, make a mistake of trying to help too much so how would you say in in your journey through this and in looking back how you looked at identity in the early seasons of this, versus the, the journey that that followed?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's tricky, you know, because of the unique set of circumstances. Listen, there are times like we said, or let's normalize, people make mistakes. You know I wasn't fired because of some sin I committed or anything like that. You know there was and we use this term before is really in many ways come was like collateral damage and there's definitely ways I could have led better and and could have Monday morning quarterback that and there's some decisions I would. I would do differently. But because I did, I knew that I wasn't responsible, like I didn't do the action that ultimately, you know, caused me to be fired. My identity wasn't rocked in that way. I knew who I was as a man of God and I don't feel like I betrayed who I was. I don't feel like my character was compromised. I feel like all of that was intact.
Speaker 2:But in you know again, let me just be honest, and this is the human side of me I feel like I lost a lot of respect that had gained through my leadership and kind of unfairly lost that respect. It just hurts, you know, like you know, I think in many ways, you know we see this in the marriage picture from Ephesians 5 that a woman's greatest need is love, and a man's greatest need is respect. And when you lose respect it doesn't go to neutral, it almost always goes to disrespect. If you were once respected and someone no longer respects you, I mean that's just, that's painful, and so you know. And then there's another group of people that they're just kind of sympathetic but, you know, wish it didn't happen, but don't really know what to do about it. And so I would say, for me the identity piece was no, I feel like I'm, I know who I am in Christ. I don't feel like I've compromised who I am in Christ. But, god, there has to be a greater reason why you're having us walk through this.
Speaker 2:And I have said to you many times that, like I don't know how to live with myself if the first half of my life is greater than the second half of my life, I just don't believe that's consistent with the Lord and I believe that you know he has to have a greater assignment and in many ways I believe how we choose to walk through the wilderness determines whether or not what he can do with us. You know he tests you to see what he can trust you with and I hope and pray, I believe we have been trustworthy with the test. I hope and pray and believe that we're in the process of passing the test and I believe that this doesn't mean we're gonna have a church of 5,000 again, all that kind of stuff. When I talk about double restoration I'm not necessarily talking about numbers and all of that kind of stuff. But I hope, pray and believe that it means that he will use me in greater ways in the second half of my life than he did in the first half of my life.
Speaker 2:And someone might say you know well, I mean, is that too important to you? I don't know. I'm just telling you what's important to me and I think God has wired me to serve him and he's, you know. Yes, I understand my identity. First is him being in Christ, but I feel like I've been called to a mission and I don't know how. You know, a lot of times people talk about oh, we just want to be intimate with God. Well, 100%, I want to cultivate an intimate relationship with God. But I think the intimacy of that relationship then has an expression and it expresses itself by being on mission. I don't know how to be like Christ without being a servant like Christ was, and I don't know how to be like Christ without being on mission like Christ was, and so in those ways, I just I feel like I want to bring back and validate that God gives man and woman work before the fall of man and that it is a significant, important part of who we are and what we're to do.
Speaker 1:Chris, I think there's several things that you hit on that I think might be helpful just to step back from and maybe comment on. You know that that whole thing of needing a plan, I think just to normalize that and understand and again, it's not the moment to, you know, nitpick the plan. Again, there's wisdom in the sense of you do need to help your spouse and be a team and there is a little bit of covering, to to be a sounding board and to you know, if they are reacting and you didn't and that was a blessing, I didn't have to navigate when I said that to you, there was never a moment where you actually did anything that was in the react world and that would have been your norm. I mean, I don't mean that in that way, but just that whole fighter part of you, I think you, you know that would have been natural for you to do that and there never was that sense that I was like, oh babe, I don't think this is a good idea. I wouldn't respond that way, like there, that was not something that we navigated.
Speaker 1:But I think, just again, how do you help someone who's walking through something they've never been through, when you've never been through it yourself, but some things like that. Okay, when all control is taken away from somebody and their normal routine has been completely obliterated, it makes sense that they might want to establish a routine. It makes sense to be able to be, a sense, to be able to listen, for let let them talk and just be able to articulate and, I think, not to get swept away and caught off guard. You were saying things that were, were more vulnerable and that were, you know, not the steady rock, you know.
Speaker 2:Let me interject here. Yeah, we discovered some language in this by some friends that you know. You need to know whether I'm talking. Is this Provisional, is this a plan or is this a promise?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I'm a person that's more of a external, you know processor and I need to talk it out in order to really Fully process, and when I'm talking it out, I haven't necessarily made a decision, but most of the time when I talk it out, I talk like it's a promise, you know, just in a visionary way, versus this is a plan or this is provisional, and so we would go on these walks and I'd be always talking about the future, because what I want is for the future to become the present and to know what we're gonna be doing. And sometimes it might you might get a little nervous because I'm talking about something that sounds like no, this, this is definitely what he wants to do. He wants to go to this direction. So maybe you can actually comment on that of how that language helped us kind of, you know, sort through the process of wait a second, no, we're just, we need to talk provisionally even to figure out what the plan is, to then figure out what plan actually is going to become a promise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, those are three great words that that really helped distinguish. And and that's that's great. In your best days as a Couple or in just in relationship and even in a work environment, it's a super helpful, helpful distinction. But you're right, I think there was something when I mean and again, when, when a lot of things in life change For a variety of reasons, it kind of is, you know, not unnecessarily, the best way, but it's kind of like a clean slate, and so all the sudden things that you've never considered are being discussed.
Speaker 1:You know well, we might move here, or we might live here, or we might get a job like this, or we might. And so there was a lot, of, a lot of extrapolation from hey, you get one phone call from one person in one city and it's like oh, I mean, I might be living there. Do I like living there? How far is that from my children? How is that going to provide like? And again, I think there is something to say that in the middle of so many unknowns in a crisis, there were times that we spent time.
Speaker 2:I'm fully blowing out some scenario that may never, ever, ever become a reality, but in hindsight, honestly, it wasn't wasted energy at all, because you kind of need that to get you through the days and do the weeks.
Speaker 1:You just took the words out of my mouth. There was something that was At least it gave you something Forward-looking. It was we were talking about the future instead of looking at the past, and I think that, honestly, was something that was Very helpful, that we had to be intentional to do that. Like you, can only spend so much time Rehashing what has happened and trying to figure out why you are there, until it becomes an unhealthy place.
Speaker 2:Well, and the other thing that is so important in this like where that language comes from is our friend, steve Cochran, with the five voices, and he invited us over to his home in the UK To really kind of spend a week with him and do a deep dive just into really what our Values are and then how that's going to express itself in a vision. And you know, at the core of that obviously is your identity, and so it was also things like that that there were people pouring into us and we had done those types of things before, but we needed that at that moment in time, maybe more than we needed anything, for someone to say I believe in you, greatness still lives in you, and we're gonna rediscover that greatness and we're gonna find a way to express it again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the. You mentioned five voices. That's one of the products. He's the, the one of the co-founders of giant worldwide and that does bring a great point. That is another tool that I think we we had kind of been prone to, those tools in the back in you know our previous context, but you needed Inspiration, you needed an ability again to look forward and so things like that where where you're being proactive, where you're developing skills, there's things that we look back now and like how many tools we put in our tool belt during that season and in some ways it was just to give us something. We didn't know if it was gonna be the, the bridge to the next season or if it was just a tool to put in our tool belt that would help us in ministry. But I mean, I did a, you know a, a coaching class, and you know you did. You know the multiple different expressions through FCCI and other types of things. That again were skills that we were just being okay. What can we do in this moment?
Speaker 2:It was our version of working while we were Discerning what, how God was gonna restore our life work.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know, instead of just going, okay, we're just gonna sit back and not work. You know, honestly, again, that idle time you know people say all the time idle times, the devil's time that idle time was not healthy for me, so I needed something. You know that a routine, a plan Needed some level of work, needed to know honestly that I was still being useful and serving in some capacity, making a difference in some capacity, so that life wasn't all about us and our problem, that we were focusing on others, how to help others.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's an interesting thing that you bring up, because I can imagine, obviously our situation was an extended a thing and some situations are and some aren't. But you know that idea of a wife saying, hey, let's go serve somewhere or let's go do something, is that a? Is that a A helpful thing, do you think would you recommend for a wife, or is it? No, in those moments you need to to let let the husband figure out what it is that's gonna be helpful to him. How? How do you?
Speaker 2:I think, any of those conversations are helpful, as long as y'all put some kind of Best practices around how to agree and disagree. Like there would be certain things that you would offer and I'd be like that that doesn't help me at all. Right, and I needed the freedom to be able to say that doesn't help me at all. Yeah, I need to be able to say that and not feel bad about it. Yeah, but then there would be other things that you would offer and I'd say, yeah, that sounds great, let's do that.
Speaker 2:You know, in our particular context, honestly, there was a little bit of pain in going to church when you have been on the other side of church for 18 years and now you're, you know, sitting in the pews. But we actually chose that as a positive. We would go visit different types of churches, we would try to meet people, we would try to learn, we try to, you know, just have different experiences, visit different types of churches. So, like that was a positive one. But there were other things that would be like Listen, our whole life is on serving and I get it and that's good, but that's just not what I want to do right now, sure sure.
Speaker 1:Well, and I do think that's a great point. This is not the time to be offended easily. If you're helping somebody who's Trying to figure it out, you just got to give them room to. You know if. If you were like no, that's a horrible idea, and I was like I mean how dare you, don't you know? I mean that's not the moment for that, like that's the moment for going, you know what, he's not in his best place and it's fine, like okay, that's not a good idea. I don't mean that like me, just didn't like the idea, and I'm trying the best I can to, and and so I do think there's there's wisdom right.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I would say on this is I wouldn't operate out of fear of making the wrong decision. I would be Seeking the Lord and you know, like we've said before, okay, what's he saying through the word, what's he saying through, you know, prayer. What's he saying through wise counsel? What's he saying through Circumstances? You know, we had the privilege of seeing, receiving prophetic words, and you know how we be a good steward of those. But I would say, if you can honestly say, okay, I'm doing everything I can to try to discern the will of God together, to discern the will of God for our family, he's not gonna let me walk off of cliff of the Grand Canyon thinking I'm obeying.
Speaker 2:And so there was even a time that we took a job that I don't think was the right job and immediately the Spirit of God Convicted me, told me it wasn't the right job, and then I rescinded, my, you know withdrew from that job and Immediately once I did that, I really knew no, you know, I feel like my life calling is the pastor and Somehow, some way, we need God to open that door. And so I would just say again that's we're going through the different steps Helps you sometimes to know no, that's, that's not what I need to do, that that's it's, it's, it's a, it's a good job. There's nothing wrong with it. I could do the job, but it's not my highest and best use. But if I didn't travel down that road some, I'd never know that one of the things that I think of as you're saying.
Speaker 1:That is a principle that you've taught a lot and you know in this particular situation, since I'm the one saying it, you know and it goes both ways. But you know, in those moments where you're maybe exploring a lot of things and and it maybe doesn't feel as safe as life used to be, it's a really good time to remember that. You know, it's not that I just trust you, but I trust God with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so, in that way, you know again, I knew you were seeking the Lord.
Speaker 1:There are some women that are going through crisis, that are trying to help a husband, or you know, maybe they've. You know it's, it's ending a marriage, all the different scenarios. But in in the case where you are working with somebody that they might not be seeking the Lord, and that's obviously a different scenario of like, okay, we're in this crisis and they're not turning to God at all and that's all I'm just granted, that's a harder one to navigate, but at the same time, you do serve a God who is merciful and full of grace and cares about your spouse, even if your spouse isn't seeking him. And so, in that way, there still is the sense of Okay, whether Chris makes the right decision or the wrong decision, god has him and I can even if I don't feel like you're at your best, I can trust that God knows that and that God has you and and that does bring some peace and some freedom To be able to say this is it's, god has this, he has my family and he knows and he's, he is for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the last thing maybe I'd like to say I'm sure there's more to say, but, as far as this podcast is concerned is there's a lot of things in these moments, as it relates to God, that you don't want to do. You know, you're a little frustrated, you're a little disappointed, you're hurt, you're wounded, what God you know why didn't you allow this to play out differently? But he's still the safest person to run to, and so I would just say you just need to put it in the context of you know, in my, safer to run to him or from him If I run to him, is it gonna make the problem better? If I run from him, is it gonna make the problem worse? It's really that simple, and so there were a lot of times I didn't want to have a priority time.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of times, you know, I was tired of praying the same prayer, but I just still need to keep coming to him and Ultimately, at the end of the day, I'm trusting that he's a good, good father, that I'm his son and that only God knows what's best, only God wants what's best and only God gives what's best, and that is where I was gonna place my trust. Otherwise, I'm putting everything back into my control and I've already, unfortunately, by the set of circumstances, proven I can't control everything.
Speaker 1:Well, I I never want to go through a storm again, but I'm glad I got to go through it with you and hopefully Though we didn't do it perfectly Hopefully God's faithfulness shines through the story and whatever adversity you're going through, that same God wants to shine His faithfulness through your journey and through your pain, and that you will come out on the other side.
Speaker 1:If there's anything that I know is true From our journey and it's not over I mean I, like you, don't get like, oh well, you've had one painful experience, that's it. In life, you know, we're not foolish enough to think that, but what I do know is the things that we thought about God and that we taught about God Prior to the crisis and prior to our wilderness. We can so emphatically Say that he is so faithful, not just from theory, not just from scripture, but from reality and walking it out and that you will be able to, on your other side of your journey, be able to say the same thing that he is faithful, and hopefully, in the really hard days Between where you are and where you desire to be someone else who's been along that road, reminding you that he is faithful, he will not let you down, he will not forsake you and it does not matter all the other things you can.
Speaker 2:You can trust in him and he will see you through and so that is the value of this podcast, it's why we're doing it. So, please, it's hard to believe that when you are in that difficult place, or when your friends in that difficult place, and so I want to encourage you, share this with your friends. When we are going through adversity, we need hope, we need encouragement, and we're hoping and praying that this podcast, just in its kind of Imperfect form and it's a little bit pull back the curtain and see kind of behind the scenes form that that it will encourage you that, just as God saw us through, god's going to see you through.