Unpacked In Santa Cruz
"Unpacked in Santa Cruz" is a homegrown podcast hosted by Michael Howard that dives into the lives, stories, and salty moments of people who call this coastal community home—or have been shaped by it in some way. Whether it's a deep conversation with local surfers opening up about mental health, or a peek behind the curtain of someone who started a one-of-a-kind food spot right here in town, every episode brings something real.
You’ll hear from folks who found healing behind the lens, built businesses from scratch, or chased massive waves thanks to a lifetime spent around our local waters. These aren’t just interviews—they’re conversations that reflect the heart and soul of Santa Cruz. Raw, reflective, and rooted in community, Unpacked in Santa Cruz brings local voices to the surface.
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
EPISODE 23: Kevin Dueck: Through the Prism of Time and Companionship
Have you ever stumbled upon an old yearbook and found yourself whisked away on the wings of nostalgia? That's the journey Kevin Dueck and I, Michael Howard, embark upon in our latest episode, where echoes of high school hallways and the surf of Santa Cruz set the stage for a reunion steeped in reminiscence. We share a laugh over the paradox of the smoking section as a social nexus and the surprising cultural juxtapositions of youth, from surf competitions to the solidarity found within church groups.
This conversation isn't just a trip down memory lane; it's also a testament to the growth that life insists upon. As Kevin and I swap stories of unexpected roles and personal revelations, we uncover the beauty of foundational friendships that have withstood the pressures of life's various chapters. My own tale of ministry and the conscious effort to foster genuine connections within my congregation and family emerges, painting a vivid picture of the intertwining paths of service and companionship.
As we wrap up our heart-to-heart, we zero in on the essence of lasting friendship. From the support offered during life's crises to the shared joy of annual traditions like our Fourth of July gatherings, our dialogue underlines the potency of connections that transcend time and circumstance. It's an ode to the friends who become family, the mentors who shape our journeys, and the celebration of those relationships that continue to enrich our lives beyond measure. Join Kevin and me as we honor the unbreakable bonds and the love that sustains us through it all.
Welcome to the Unpacked and Naked Podcast. My name is Michael Howard. I am sitting here with Mr Kevin.
Speaker 2:Goode Welcome to existence. Everyone's here, everyone's here.
Speaker 1:I have the privilege of sitting here today with Kevin Dueck. What's up? Michael Howard, the brother of Brian Dueck, the yes, as we were referring to this last podcast. But Kevin and I go way back and, as all of you have gotten to know, my personal journey Been doing this every time. Sorry. Yeah, there are. You know. I think we all have these kind of friendships where we measure them by grades and it's not that one friend's better than another, but some friendships are a little bit more important due to proximity, due to time, and with Kevin, I think I would count you in, whatever the top three looks like. I think there's probably about six or seven people in that top three category.
Speaker 3:Right, thanks, nothing personal.
Speaker 1:You've been at number one more than once.
Speaker 3:I fluctuate week to week. Well, no, I think it's.
Speaker 1:I fluctuate and it's not anybody else, it's my bipolar too. No, I think it more has to do with the realities that we've raised kids together and time and all sorts of different things. But as far as factors, at least in my heart, like who I think you are to me, you know, when I go back to the beginnings of, of like being married, you know what it meant to be married, stay married. Uh, there gosh, there aren't many couples left right, all right yeah you know, that's just the reality of it.
Speaker 1:You know I have you and daniel and laurie cory like that's, that's crazy, that's kind of you know a lot of people. Yeah, I know a lot, you know a lot of people and it's not not as though you know that like couples aren't together, they just people have moved out of my life and it's just the nature of time and all that kind of thing. But in general, you know, you, you and you, you too, like, like that's that's a long.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of years in there, right, right. On top of the whole childhood thing, right, anyways. So Kevin and Kara, his wife, have been very, very long friends of Kim and I and have just been. We've been friendly, I guess is the bit Like it's been a friendship, friendship. You know not For how many years. Well, I think I was 13 or 14 when I showed up to your house.
Speaker 1:That would have made you yeah, 12, yeah yeah and, of course, when we first were going to your house, we were ignoring you and brian because, right, we were just there to ride motorcycles that's it.
Speaker 3:You know bmx, bikes, motorcycles and skateboard. You're just over the quarter pipe and half type.
Speaker 2:Was it really a friendship then?
Speaker 3:Let's be real.
Speaker 1:No, let's be real. I think it's when you departed from Aptos High and came to SoCal and that whole process of whatever it is. You'd never even talked about why you came to SoCal.
Speaker 3:Mom and dad, they thought it was a better high school than aptos, and so they thought they had better teachers and it was a better school to be at. And uh, they said, yeah, you're gonna go to app, you're going to socal. I'm like what? All my friends are at aptos, what's going on, oh wow. And so I I don't remember like how I felt at the time, but I had a really good friend then who was also going.
Speaker 1:Robert, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so that made it easier. But for the reasons of why that was and how that affected me I don't remember, like, whether I was bummed, sad or what I just like all right, I guess I'm going to so kill now I don't know one person over there. Yeah, it's for those of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that that, uh, that wouldn't know. The the proximity issues as it pertains to santa cruz county, uh, as far as surf culture goes, which you were, you were a distinct part of you were a south sider. You're part of the beaches crew and that's just.
Speaker 3:Socal high is a no-fly zone right as far as anybody doesn't work pleasure point all the way to midtown like, right, strong cutoffs, strong cutoffs.
Speaker 1:yeah, what was it like to come from aptos to to that? I mean just seeing, you know, being in the quad and like the quad was set up, it was it was.
Speaker 3:Uh, yeah, it was there. The groups were established for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I the. The one thing I think I had also was, uh, a lot of the kids that went to the church group at Twin Lakes, oh gotcha. I went to Twin Lakes church growing up, and so a lot of the kids that went to the church group at Twin Lakes. Oh gotcha, I went to Twin Lakes Church growing up, and so a lot of the kids from there, or some of the kids from there, went to SoCal. So I kind of had some ties that way.
Speaker 1:So they were smoking weed with me yeah exactly In the smoking section. So weird, so trippy, so weird to think, yes, we had a smoking section people.
Speaker 3:We had two of them we did had two of them, and uh, literally, yeah, you'd walk by to go. Remember off-campus dining so you'd have to walk by the path, by the smoking section.
Speaker 1:Well, the smoking section on the path was distinctly for the real smokers real smokers.
Speaker 3:That's where all the fights went down. Yeah, no, it was gnarly, it was always scary that's.
Speaker 1:That's where the real smokers were.
Speaker 3:It was mostly the clove smoker mods yeah, yeah, it was the mod crew all black.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know I I would. Well, I was kind of part of both crews. I was Justin Black sitting on on surf hill or whatever, whatever, whatever that portion of the quad that we were on, but it was always a thing.
Speaker 3:Oh it was, it was. It was something I was just telling my kids about their day. I'm like we actually had a smoking section at our high school. They couldn't believe it. They're like what is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's funny because you know my sister Tammy was the first year they got a smoking section. I was the last year it existed, right.
Speaker 2:When.
Speaker 1:I graduated. It ended in 87.
Speaker 3:When I went away? Yeah, because when I was a senior it wasn't there.
Speaker 1:So maybe the year before that, yeah, no more illegally smoking, I guess, well, you could still. I think it went to 18 then, didn't it? Yeah, I don't know, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 3:But everyone did it Something strange. Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we really didn't become friends until high school and I think we hung out a couple times. I probably felt kind of dangerous.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Although I do remember driving the Fiero around the fish Scary.
Speaker 1:Remember the time of the Cougar Right.
Speaker 3:How was that normal?
Speaker 1:Just growing up bro.
Speaker 3:Just growing up In Santa Cruz Carrying guns, driving Cougars.
Speaker 2:So dumb the Fiero, yeah, oh my God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the yeah. The Fiero was was bitching though. It was, it was fast. Yeah, that was fast yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you remember when I had to use phone books to sit in there?
Speaker 1:when I first started driving. I do.
Speaker 3:Because I was so damn short Small.
Speaker 1:And full disclosure. We're not mocking Kevin anymore about this, because he does look like a man.
Speaker 3:With two chest hairs.
Speaker 1:It was about when you were a senior, when you finally started growing.
Speaker 3:Late junior year. Seven inches, yeah, in one year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a lot, that's a lot, that's a lot of growing.
Speaker 3:Driver's license said 5.090 pounds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, mine was 5.5, 140 or something like that.
Speaker 3:Wow, no, it's yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't grow until really my senior that Wow, no it's. I didn't grow until really later my senior year yeah. Senior year actually into college was was. I didn't fully fill out until I was way out. Oh yeah, the locker room was just a joy. Right, I didn't go to the locker room. Yeah, yeah I probably should have been born in this era, but anyways, I can't stand when I see boys have mustaches in junior high.
Speaker 3:I'm like how did you do that? That's so unfair it is. I didn't get my mustache until after college.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I don't think I was ever naked in a locker room. Yeah, yeah, I was a never nude from what's his face? Arrested Development. Yeah, I was a never nude from a what's his face? Do arrested development. Right, where am I cut off?
Speaker 3:I would have said I don't think I was either. There might've been a couple times, but yeah where you had to kind of had to. You know, and you're like, oh my God, today we have to do this.
Speaker 1:Or you forgot your towel for swim practice or whatever it was.
Speaker 3:Right, oh no, I'm locked in, dude, that's the quickest change ever, that's right.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's hilarious. Anyhow, you know. So in our cycle of friendship, you know, you were in college when I got married. Then you subsequently got married right out of college, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how long?
Speaker 1:have you been married now?
Speaker 3:Since 93.
Speaker 1:So 30 years 31 years this year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah 31.
Speaker 3:Yeah 31 years. How many kids Wait? No, it's 30, isn't it? Oh, it's 24. This year will be the 31st.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, shortly, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's been 30 plus. We celebrated 30th in September of last year. Oh, that's right yeah.
Speaker 1:September is the good month to get married.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Divorce rate goes down in September. Good, we decided September 21st was at 75%, because I know four people that got married on that day and only one of us got divorced. So we're batting above average on the 21st.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure how your day is doing with you.
Speaker 3:Well, we're September 4th, so we squeaked in. Yeah, anyhow.
Speaker 1:So you know the normal trajectory of friendships, relationships, things like that, you know. I think one of the pleasures we've had of being from this town that I've been mentioning is it's strange to be somewhere where I still got 20 guys I haven't talked to in 30 years that I know would have my back if I called them right now. How's that been for you living in Santa Cruz? There's this reality of beyond church, beyond all of that. You're just from a town where friendships mean something. In a strange way they do, they go deep.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even though you don't see that person, you know you could call up that person anytime and they will have your back. They will be there for you and it runs deep, it runs deep, it runs deep. I would say, besides you and maybe one other person or a couple other people from SoCal, I have some really deep good friends at Aptos that anytime I could call them up and they'd have my back like 100% yeah, and I talk to them once a year, twice a year, maybe, if that, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, why is that? Why is it?
Speaker 3:have that. So, yeah, why is that? Why is it have that? Like, how do we have that?
Speaker 1:I think there's a trauma theory associated with it Maybe yeah.
Speaker 1:You know you live in a unique space in that you know you're one of the intact families. You know when we grew up I think the vast majority of people that we know they're children of divorce you know. So I think there was a particular camaraderie that just happened with our generation, that we were kind of raising each other and, and you know, love it, hate it, the the realities of being in this town with the types of people that were here, various types of people you know, the things that we went and did.
Speaker 1:You know you just, if you're just unpacking surf culture? You know, it's Lord of the flies out there. Everybody's after each other in the water. But once you're out of the water, you know, those friendships run really deep, right, right. And you know, I, I, I, I account that, you know, towards. You know the kind of raising of each other, just the freedoms that we had that other people didn't. You know, isn't it weird looking back on how you didn't really feel free growing up Like your parents?
Speaker 1:had a pretty tight lock on you, but like compared to how your kids are raised, right now so different, like literally so different. Yeah, and I'm not saying that you're a loosey-goosey parent, but you're not as tight at all as other parents are Right, right. And you know it's.
Speaker 3:And we were free to roam anywhere anytime, Like, honestly like, as you know right.
Speaker 1:Did you ever go to southern california without your parents, like early on?
Speaker 3:I don't recall if I did or not. Yeah, yeah, I was traveling a lot. Yeah, all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was always gone right, right you know, every other month I was on a fairly important trip somewhere to go compete or who would you go with? Just went with the crew you know, actually my first trips were all loaded up in the doc Scott's a station wagon. There's, you know we're.
Speaker 2:There's, three of us laying in the back of the station wagon, you know, on all the luggage, right, yeah, all the luggage on the wetsuits, just trekking down.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, you know we'll. We'll leave some of those stories back there, Right, but the car was full, that's wild. You know seven people every ride, wherever you went.
Speaker 3:And all your equipment, all your gear, all your equipment.
Speaker 1:Sleeping on couch, just sleeping on floors? Wow, yeah, I mean, it was a strange.
Speaker 3:And you were what that was when you were like 15?
Speaker 1:I started when I was 13, traveling. Wow, yeah, when I was 13 traveling, so that you know I I can look back on those times as a bit of a rescue you know, but when I think about who I was exposed to, you know, when I think of the guys like David Eggers, Matt Mondragon, um, you know a bunch of guys who we should have known, who they were like as good as Tom Curran at the time, and just got lost got lost.
Speaker 1:You know and it's not that I was really tight with those guys, but I, I, we were more than on a first name basis going to their houses whenever it was in Santa Barbara, san Diego. You know so, so that experience, you know, led to a lot. Wow, you know. So that experience, you know, led to a lot. Right, you know a lot of the people that are everyday names.
Speaker 1:Right right Now. You know you can see them by the look on their face and the tattoos on their body Right. You know what kind of lifestyle choice, their journey. You know it was very different than mine. You know I was fortunate that I had good people as parents. You know was very different than mine. You know I was fortunate that I had good people as parents.
Speaker 3:You know that were that were you know, doing their best I could recognize that you know whatever we need to you know, dissect about parenting and some other podcasts
Speaker 1:But, but you know, that is one of the things that that I count as having rescued me is that, despite everything that was going on, there was always a car with a parent waiting for me on the cliff when I was done.
Speaker 1:So, when I rode home on my bicycle it was always with a friend, right. When I think about the groups, eli, fernando, that whole group of guys, we were pretty solid. Yeah, I knew it, fernando, you know that that whole group of guys, we're pretty solid, you know, and and we weren't, we weren't too invested in any one group, you know right. You know Fernando was, you know part of part of the, you know the, the biker guys that you know half of them ended up, you know, getting patched in and you know like so. So we had this really round existence and not too vested in any one group, so as not to fall into the gun running and all the drug dealing stuff that was going on amongst our peers. I think it's really hard. Well, it's probably not hard to imagine for this generation with the stories that have come out, but it's weird to think that for us that was an everyday thing.
Speaker 3:Normal. Yeah, it was normal.
Speaker 1:I had plenty of friends who were packing weapons, had drugs in their backpacks and that was a normal thing. I'll never forget this kind of weird story. But the first time I'm a freshman, it's my first week at school, begonia street or the begonia festival and being down and seeing one of the guys I knew in pe and going to talk to him. He's like, hey, you can't talk to me right now because he was in the middle of a drug deal no, that's like 15 and I'm like what, are you okay?
Speaker 1:because you look panic. I'm like, are you okay? And he shows me his gun, like it just got. Like this was, like this is what I'm beating my big boy and I don't know how it's going to go, but in front of everybody, what?
Speaker 3:Why down there?
Speaker 1:Because it's in front of everybody, it's like in plain sight. And, of course, it's weird because I sound like I'm a person who knew what was going on or the consequences of what was going on around me, because I was exposed to all this stuff. I mean, I ran from it, right, but like the guys I know, now, looking back, half those guys are dead. It's just such a weird, isn't that?
Speaker 3:crazy, it's just weird, it is.
Speaker 1:But that's just Santa Cruz, right? I don't think it's really changed that much.
Speaker 3:No, it's just Santa Cruz, right? I don't think it's really changed that much. No, it's just in a different way. It's just a little bit different yeah.
Speaker 1:Probably a little bit more coded maybe than it was then because of social media and the way that you can communicate that way. There's better ways of communicating.
Speaker 3:We didn't have cell phones and all that. It's weird how we were around it and among it all the time right, but then we just kind of had it was just normal like oh, that that person, those people over there yeah, they, they do that kind of stuff. Yeah, your parents were like yeah, just don't do that, don't hang out that guy don't be all right.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, he's hanging out with me, so what do I do? He needs a ride doing all right.
Speaker 3:Right it was yeah, it was strange, it was, it was just part of who we were around. It was crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that really is kind of the weirdness for me is looking back, as I've been sharing in my podcast, which you have a list too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know, I just discovered that Mike had a podcast last week, kept it very secret and I'm like what?
Speaker 1:There's a reason I did do that you know so that I could have fresh interviews and right and you not have to worry about these things, but but one of the things that that's. It's been a little hard on me to realize how naive I was you know that that, as much as you might see me as socially aware, and I am acutely aware of like the comings and goings, you know, just just like I don't know. It was what, like eight months ago, when I found out like everybody I worked for was dealing drugs.
Speaker 1:Remember me coming back and just like being stunned because somebody I ran into was talking about when he was using and I'm like with what? Who?
Speaker 2:what? What Like, everybody like everybody.
Speaker 1:And that was you know. I didn't like as much as I knew I didn't know. Right, right, like everybody, like everybody, wow, and that was you know, I didn't like as much as.
Speaker 1:I knew I didn't know Right. Right, and in a way I look at that as being wholly protected, you know, like by them, one which I look back in great respect for them, having not like just knowing me as a person, knowing that wasn't my path. Right, not using in front of me, not doing the things that they were actively doing without me being aware of it. Right, which which is, you know, cause.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty observant, right? I mean, yeah, I'm pretty observant, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's nice. Yeah, you would think, but I didn't when I was there, right, but they didn't. Let me see it.
Speaker 3:No, they didn't.
Speaker 1:So it's a strange respect that I really have, you know, since being even exposed to that piece of content, of realizing, wow, like these people respected me and that's kind of cool.
Speaker 3:Well, they knew who you were and who you are as a person. Maybe that you know. They definitely saw that and they didn't want to bring that like. Maybe they didn't want to show their that part of their side to you yeah because you didn't know and they. Maybe they thought you would think of them differently, but you know yeah, be Self-protection.
Speaker 1:I think most of it kind of lives in that space. But I went from it being like having my pants pulled down to like really appreciating the realities that you know I'm not as crazy as I think. I am Right, it's not personal to me per se, you know, to realize that they were holding back. You know, but that within you know, whatever fear that was, it was a respect also for who I was as a person. True way, for various reasons. And, looking back, it's weird how rescued I feel to to have not had to have been exposed to that also, especially amongst my group of media peers. You know, and you know I feel like a knucklehead in a way, you know, cause I was barely hanging on with what I was seeing what else was going on.
Speaker 1:Probably would have been hiding in a cave somewhere.
Speaker 3:Doesn't sound fun.
Speaker 1:No, no, but anyways, let's fast forward a little bit to now. So you have four children, four daughters. You figured out how it worked finally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I couldn't have a boy, so we have four daughters. You figured out how it worked. Finally, yeah, well, I couldn't have a boy, so we have four daughters.
Speaker 2:Yeah so did I figure it out.
Speaker 3:No, I'm just kidding no, blessed with four daughters that are all amazing, um, and they're all in different parts of their life right now. It's just super fun to experience their life and how they're growing up and becoming their own. So it's been a great journey. And you always think, when I wanted to freeze life, when they were my oldest was about 12, and then down to the youngest, I wanted to freeze it because that moment just was special. It was just a moment in time like I want this just to stay, but you know obviously it can't. A moment in time like I want this just to stay, but you know obviously it can't. But now I look, I'm looking now as fast forward to where I now every moment is still being a great experience, and to see them grow and to see what they do and hang out with them and be, you know, that person to them and in a different way, as adults. And so, um, yeah, I just I love it. And then you know, weddings coming up.
Speaker 2:Yes, Kevin has the first out of the group yeah.
Speaker 1:How's that? I thought I would be there first. I gotta be honest, I thought so too, be honest, what? You know it's, you know, with trajectories, I wasn't imagining it. You, you know it's not, as though, uh, that would have been off the table. I, I'm, I'm. No, I thought it would be. I'm not. Sadly surprised and right, also like, oh you know?
Speaker 3:yeah, it is what it is.
Speaker 1:It is what it is for the first time you beat me to it, right, yeah, but you get the bill you get the bill yeah that's what's up wow so you know it, it's uh, uh, let, let's, let's uh, back up even a little bit more, which will lead us to more talking about, about raising kids and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, one of the things that that, um, that I really appreciate about both you and kara is is the longevity you know, it's the time it's it's the comings and goings, the actual the, the space that you have really let kim and I just be kim and I and you know, I know what the church stuff I was doing for a long time that that that you know you, your life, who you are as a person, what you did for us of just being normal, you know, allowing us to be who we were not having to put on any game face anything like that.
Speaker 1:Um, on your side of the things, like having watched me when I started to get into ministry, when you saw it really get traction, what was that like for you? What was the? As a friend, you can share any cynical thought, anything anything you know you're not going to hurt anybody's feelings with this, you know, but, but but you saw something was happening. Did it feel real to you at the time?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it felt real. I knew if, if you, michael Howard, was going to get into something, it's going to be real, you're going to put everything into it and and I knew that you, going into this, was gonna be a hundred percent in and committed to it. And so when you made those decisions, it was just like, okay, let's go back him back. You know, you and kim, and to, you know, do support in any way we can. Um, but it's like it wasn't.
Speaker 3:I mean, at first I was kind of like, okay, wow, you want to be in that world. Like, are you sure? Like you know, and I know you love people, and so when you love people, like you do, you want to, you know, nurture them and take care of them and grow them, and so, and you're the best at that, at growing people, and you see certain things in people that other people don't. And so when I saw you get into it, I'm like, yeah, you fit that. Like, you fit that part of it for sure, because somehow you have this God-given gift to understand someone and what they need and what they're looking for, or you, you can go down a path and find out more about what they're looking for and what they need.
Speaker 3:And I think that's what church or going to you know, having being a Christian or being in religion I think that's kind of what it is. You just people are going their their lives, going down their road, their journeys, and they're trying to figure things out. So, yeah, I thought it was a big step for you. I was kind of like okay, the hours are now Pastors.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, it must have been strange, it was.
Speaker 3:It was strange, it wasn't strange, it was kind of like that's a different road that I thought you would go down.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's what it is Right, totally, you know, and, and without minimizing that, just the reality that.
Speaker 3:Right, it was a lot Once you were in it. You were in it. Like it was like normal, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's well. You know you get those early successes with people. You know that the reality, that you know a little bit of content and a lot of time of just having your house open being aware of what's going on, not letting the lie live, you know, with people you know, being a safe place for the lie to die. You know that that was really. I think you know that was such a conscious thing on my part of of like you know, you've been living a lie.
Speaker 2:Just let it die.
Speaker 1:Just let it, let it be here, stay here. And there's a lot of goodwill in that Right Cause there were my own lies that I needed to have die in me, you know, and and not continue to cause the kind of harm that I think the lifestyle choices that are really available in this town, you know, were. You know me enough to know that I spent some time out sowing my oats and doing some stuff and really didn't like. I didn't like it, you know. So you know, living a life with more discipline was appealing to me.
Speaker 3:But wait, what made you all of a sudden make that decision? Like why?
Speaker 1:Well, that's a good question. No one's asked me that. What made me decide that?
Speaker 2:If I'm being as clear as I can be about thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I think it was literally getting married and giving my vows. You know that when I look back on that moment, realizing there was no way that the person that I was could fulfill the things I was saying to this person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, I realized I needed to get sharp fast, sharp fast. So it was that personal focus on just being the best husband I could be to Kim was the reason why I really dove in. I knew the secret parts of my heart. I knew my habits. I knew what was available to me, especially not that I ever would have made a big living surfing, but the business was very appealing at the time. I was in that end.
Speaker 1:You know, I had a lot of really good opportunities in that space where I certainly would have made a hell of a lot more money would have been retired by now, but, that being said, it wasn't a lifestyle choice that that I wanted to to end at you know it was not.
Speaker 1:It was just not something I wanted to be in totality. So, you know, I I think because I was exposed to the, to the bigger scene, the underbelly of of what surf had to offer, especially at that growth cycle. Right at the time it was pretty self-evident that if I just stayed the course, that wealth, a little bit of fame, you know, the things that really appealed or appealed to me then were available to me and and I knew that didn't match what I was saying to the person I was giving vows to. And so that conscious choice that day, september 21st 1991, at 5.30, it's a pretty simple time, because I knew I was lying. If I continue to be who I was, that's like. Well, I don't want to be a liar.
Speaker 1:So this is what I need to do next. So I think that's really what propelled me into the fabric of ministry. It certainly took some time before I got licensed and all that Right, right, but very early on, as you know, we were pretty involved. You were Leading a cell group and them always filling up drastically, you know, whenever we had them. And right, you know, whatever the likability factor of kim and I was, it just attracted people and and uh, so you know immediately, we, we were just. You know, when I talk about counseling, it's more sharing what was working for?
Speaker 1:us. It wasn't really like yeah, there were things that weren't working.
Speaker 3:Did you want to help people through the ministry?
Speaker 1:I think I always wanted to help people.
Speaker 3:I mean, you always want to be a friend, you're always available and that's why you're my best friend. You are always there, you're always open to discuss, you always make time if the time is needed, and I think that's a that's a true friendship. Yeah, and, and I think that resonates through through and through, and I think people see that, and so when they see that, that's why your cell groups, filled up Like you and Kim, are there, open to listen, and if they want answers from you, you can give them answers or give them, you know, ideas, and I think that you're you're so invite, like you're so, I don't know how to say it, but like you, um, you, just, you offer that, that comfort. Yeah, you offer that comfort, that comfort, yeah, you offer that comfort to be around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but but.
Speaker 3:I'm wondering, though is it on your part I understand that the vows you take in and what you want to be as a better person. Did you want to get into ministry? For what? Because of why? To help people, to guide them through the minute that the journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I, I, I to guide them through the journey. Yeah, this is probably a good segue. There's the idea of it, right, there's the thing that you're doing. You have a title. You get to do this thing in the big machine.
Speaker 3:Right right.
Speaker 1:There's that part of it You've certainly been part of that where it's plug and play, and then there's the thing you do outside of whatever the machine is and being effective there. I got to do that with being a hairdresser you know because you know I had a minimum, of you know, a hundred people coming through my shop you know, and so when you, when you, when you spend a half hour or more with somebody once a month, you get to know them, yeah, and you know them in a way that's super vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, for the most part, I think, especially back then, hairdressers were the other shrink. You know, I don't know how many women were having affairs on their husbands, who were also my clients. You just hear stuff, you see stuff.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:You have to operate around the friction of reality in that, so the tools that you get to do that only count for a couple things Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know the privacy that somehow happened in public.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Was a very strange, that is Right, was a very strange. That is Thing. And I can be honest and say I don't know. I think you know me enough that I could have done anything, the tools that I garnered during that time, I don't know if they count for anything other than what I did. You know it's. You know you just end up with this snap on toolbox.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:All of a sudden you got a, a Ferrari, a Ferrari mechanic shop full of stuff, and it's like, well, I guess I'm working on Ferraris. Right, I didn't mean to get here, but I got, probably, you know. Let's say, everybody tells me two things you should have been a shrink or an attorney, Right, that's what I always hear. It's gosh. You should go back and get your counseling degree. It's like you know, it's. No, you know I don't need to sit and listen to somebody.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:Telling me about what counseling's like day in and day out. You know it's going to drive me nuts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it will drive you nuts out, you know it's gonna drive me nuts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it will drive you nuts. Yeah, it would literally drive me nuts. I I would just be writing punishing papers against how everything is working or not working or whatever else. I get kicked out every school I went to make the. Make the professor go slit the wrist. Why do you even exist?
Speaker 3:what are you doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no not that I'm obstinate ever, anyways, yeah. So keeping on that strand though, you know what was it like being a friend of mine, you know watching that, and I want to take you to a time where I'll tell you where it really shifted. It was at the time after we built the house, la Selva, you know, living with my grandma next door and starting to get abused by her, physically, certainly emotionally, dealing with that prospect, then having to move out of the house because it had gotten so crazy. That was a tough time. It was. Yeah, my grandma took an ax through our door.
Speaker 3:That was a tough time.
Speaker 1:It was. Yeah, my grandma took an ax through our door.
Speaker 3:That was a tough time.
Speaker 1:It was nuts. And the level of loneliness that I faced in that time because these are pivot points from my life, my moments of what mattered, my list of friends was short. At that point. Everybody had fled, except for you. You know Jim, you know Daniel and Lori like, and you know my pastors, you know, but even leaders I was close with before that lots of opinions, lots of ideas, lots of accusation coming at me. For me, the pivot point of because at that time I was out of ministry entirely, it was like I was about a year and a half and I'm not into it because it was right after I had done the Seabright thing, I had just had a Right Kind of had a small cell group at that time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I bet on that, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I was taking a break from church is not accurate of time, but I was. I was taking a break from church is not accurate.
Speaker 1:Re assessing what church was is probably more accurate. Assessment Like where, where does it actually what? Once we get down to brass tacks, you know what? What is church at its core? You know? I had to answer those questions and then it became there was, there was an acuity in the moment when I realized, okay, we really don't have the kind of friendships we need. To get through this moment and deciding to be the friend that I needed is really what that's why I ended up getting licensed after that. Is that deep harm that happened to us during that time, which I don't think we've actually recovered from?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can. I'm stronger in ways I never would have been. But as far as recovering now, I'm kind of over the PTSD and all the stuff that was associated with those moments. It was a rough. How many years ago was that? Was that? Oh, that's 24 years ago, yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 1:It was a lot yeah you know you don't easily recover from all the sequence of events that happened right that's about when kim got sick too like there's just a lot of stuff that went down built a house, built two businesses, moved three or four times in short order.
Speaker 3:It was three years.
Speaker 1:It was no small effort to do what we did. It just took something out of me, and I guess what got filled up there was ministry, like building something other than what was being torn down. It was a place for me to do that. So I can say that's the pivot point, got it. That's where I decided that well, I have all this stuff. You don't go through this for nothing. I don't want it to be for nothing other than what the consequences were of that moment. I wanted to account for something more, and having an account for other people is what gave me some value to life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So it was helping me, probably more than I was helping it, but I was probably a pretty great help in that situation because I knew how bad things could get, you know, especially doing the right thing, which you know. Looking back, certainly there's things I would change about some decisions, but hindsight is 2020. Yeah, you know, I made the best decisions at the time that I could.
Speaker 3:That was a dark hole. Yeah, that was making decisions on some of those, those instances you had to just make decisions. Yeah, like it, it would have to be right then and there to make a decision on whatever you did, because you had some moments of hard dealing. Yeah, yeah, hard, hard dealings.
Speaker 1:It was, it was. It was a rough, rough moment, rough moments, you know, kim, having to stroke like it was a lot yeah, it was a lot, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know it's the actuation of god, being real, you know, like for real in that time. Was that that's? That's a pivotal point in in that, apart from career of know getting down to the darkest spot, finding light, finding love, finding love through friendships, just an existing, you know, because we're barely holding on there for a little bit, right, you know, not sure whether Kim was going to die, like there's so many moments like what the heck is going on here Right, Like what the heck is going on here Right and you know, in the abandonment of what, in essence, I saw church as an idea at that point, which was really uncomfortable, it's like, oh, you guys aren't really participating the way that you know like I needed you and did not see you when I needed you.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, that's not exclusive to church.
Speaker 3:It's just a reality that?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's part of being human but those feelings of abandonment, you know, really I purpose myself to make sure that in as much as I could to not have other people have to feel that way.
Speaker 1:You know, just, I mean, you know how I am yeah, yeah, no, it's true, it's that phone call that you get when you know something's going wrong and you know I happen to catch wind of it and hey, are you sure, are you doing all right? You know, that kind of stuff that has really made me a lot of good friends. Yeah, it has over time, you know, I think that, yeah, that time was the worst, best time ever in my life, you know it's, I guess the things that that anybody see is strong in me all actuated during that moment. Wow, you know, without that I would just be a nice guy which, which is strange, that's wild to think about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like really.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like really yeah, wow, yeah, cause I mean it's you know God, I got that job offer in Santa Barbara at that time. Like there was a lot like I almost pulled up shop and right. It would have been a game changer, but that was pretty much the choice Do I want to be a nice, wealthier guy or do I want to be a person of impact? And that that was. That was the choice I felt was in front of me.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I guess I'd like to pay my bills.
Speaker 1:You know that pastoring gig doesn't pay the way they say it does. Sales is a hard thing, man Selling Jesus. We're not all making that greenback yeah.
Speaker 3:Looking back. Yeah, you think of those decisions, of course, but you can't look back. Well, unfortunately, I you can't look back.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, unfortunately, I do it all the time. It probably creates more chaos in my mind than it should.
Speaker 3:Right. Think of how many people you've impacted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's the only upside and you wouldn't have done that. Yeah, you wouldn't have done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 3:That's way more than paying the bills.
Speaker 1:It's it's pretty weird, you know. You know, when you amortize that stuff out, you know I'm in the thousands. Wow, when you think about the teams, the churches, the all that kind of stuff the sits the moments with. You know the kids, you know I was. I was just I'm coaching baseball again, of all things like little league, which is nuts.
Speaker 3:That's crazy.
Speaker 1:One of my sucker friends brought me on as a pitching coach and so on. Now I put big hammers in a cope and spit in front of 10, 11 year old boys and say, fuck too much.
Speaker 3:You're teaching reality. You're teaching me how to throw like shit.
Speaker 2:Gotta, grip the ball better Using your legs wrong.
Speaker 1:When you think about it, though, because each one of those kids comes with three or four more people. True, I was telling the kids. It's so weird. I've coached 20 or more teams in 50 years, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:It's weird. It looks a lot of people, that is a lot of people, a lot of people, and like, look people, you want to change the world, go coach, yeah.
Speaker 1:They change it for the better. Don't be a dick to the kids and put up with the parents. But they change it for the better. Don't be a dick to the kids and put up with the parents. But if you really want to change things, coach that's really the bottom line and get good at something. And if you don't know how to master it, get good at it.
Speaker 1:But I think coaching is kind of the greater highlight so far of all of it, the deeper impact the stuff that you get to do on a field that you can't do at a church, right, you know the kids that have been rescued from really, really tough situations.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Like, my deepest impact was coaching, wow.
Speaker 3:Always.
Speaker 1:Yeah, coaching and behind the chair. Yeah, you know, not that ministry wasn't an impact, but it's just different dynamic Ministry wasn't an impact, but it's just different dynamic.
Speaker 3:Well, the kids on the field, you can see different things and how their home life is right. It's exposed, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see it on parade Right. It is what it is, and not all humans have the same tools, but they come with the same needs. Yeah, you know, they just want to know that they belong, and especially in league sports, you know, it's not pay to play. It's a whole different atmosphere and you know club's fun and all that Right, everybody thinks they're elite, but whatever they're all elite. It is what it is, you know we'll see if we get to division three people.
Speaker 2:They're all T1 top athletes. Warm on the bench At age 10.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, yeah, kid's going to be a star my kid's the one, especially in baseball. Why is he not pitching? That's right. Why is he not on the mound.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't have 22 000 kids here to tell you whether or not he's gonna make it to college. So strange anyhow, you know when. But when it comes to parenting, um, the kind of friendships that we've had, you know, fourth of july, brian and I were talking aboutth of July, the mayhem, the 20, it's been what 23 years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 23.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's wild. But it's. It's funny Cause my kids still look forward to that over Christmas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:It's such a special day yeah.
Speaker 2:It's always on the books, always, always on the books, always, always on the books, like whatever it is, we rearrange to make it the howard.
Speaker 3:Fourth of july, that's right.
Speaker 1:And then I gotta go park the truck, get all the chairs for the smallest parade in the world we heckle it every time I miss the pigeons some great memories. But I bring it up mostly as a friendship angle. You know we have our dinner once or twice a year. You know we both have very busy lives. We've had the privilege of working around each other this last, you know, 13 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, it's been this month.
Speaker 3:Is it 13? 13?
Speaker 1:years.
Speaker 2:That it's been this month. Is it 13? 13 years.
Speaker 1:You know the surf trip, which is the best surf trip I've ever been on Crazy Unreal. You know, when you think about those things, the daily realities of maintaining friendship. You know, one of the things I've observed about you is that you've managed to make all of us feel like we're your best friend. It's one of the great qualities that you have as a person.
Speaker 1:I don't think you're faking. I think that's the beauty of it. You know what's it like to be you in that like, like, what. What kind of pressure, you know, because your guy's a social schedule I know you feel like it's light, but it's not when, when you're really honest with yourself and you look around other than your friends that are, that are bar the amount of people that you are actually around all the time. How do you manage that? What is that like? I mean, what do you feel like you're mirroring from our childhood?
Speaker 3:Oh man, I mean, yeah, we are social, but I think we're less social now than we were like socially active out in the you know party scene or whatever, like dinners and so forth. I think now is a lot less. And I remember back in the day I mean this is not about what you're talking about, it's kind of off topic but Karen and I had to make a decision on it we were very social and we were very plugged in to do a lot of different things with a lot of different groups of people. Um, and we we said we I think Kara read in a book or something. She's like it's okay to say no, it's okay to say no to go to something, and so we made a decision like it's okay to say no to go to something.
Speaker 3:And so we made a decision like it's okay to say no and people might be offended by it, but it's something that we're going to live by for our family life, because it's more important to grow the family and have that than go out and do whatever we were doing, or whatever dinner or whatever you know birthday party or whatever we. Just we made that decision early on, but we always want to. You know, we want to be available to our friends that we have, of course, like we want to be friends, like with you and the Locatellis and other people that we want to have, are those friends and carry those on. But, um, that we want to have are those friends and carry those on, but, um, I don't know. I, I I think that it was something that um was good for us, cause we can. We can then control what when we wanted to go out or do things.
Speaker 1:You, know Um what. Was it control? Or was it being more purposeful about why you were doing what you're doing?
Speaker 3:Hmm, yeah, maybe that's. I think it was just something that care and I wanted for ourselves. Like we wanted to be able to be okay with saying no and just being together and being at home with our family and we really cherish time with our kids and our family. Yeah, family and I. I feel that sometimes that we maybe do it, maybe we do it too much, but that just was ours decision, like that's just we was. If our kids are home, we always want to be home.
Speaker 3:We want to be with them, like we just want to be with them, and if there's something going on, I we'd rather just be with them and hang out and just to cherish those moments and those times that we can be together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's certain realities too, you know, as I don't know if it's this way for you guys, but you know I've raised three pretty dynamic men.
Speaker 2:They don't need me.
Speaker 1:So when they're around, you know like I got the privilege of Brennan having to go to the bathroom Right, so I got to make him lunch today. So great and like.
Speaker 3:How perfect is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I just happened to be home and, right, you know, caught me in between a moment and and the value of of the friendship of your children. You know that that shift, yeah, where they don't need. They need your money, of course, but they don't need you.
Speaker 3:Right, right.
Speaker 1:Um has, is that dynamic, influencing kind of what cause? You still got one at home, so that's a little bit.
Speaker 3:Two at home for temporarily, but yeah, we got one at home, but yeah, yeah, for sure. Like we want to spend time, like anything that Ella does, we want to be there and and and be at those moments that she does things like this. Last weekend she was in a volleyball tournament and we're both down there all day and in raining, windy, crazy, cold nutty but we want to be there with Ella, we want to enjoy her, her, whatever she's doing.
Speaker 3:And yes, it was volleyball and we want to enjoy that with her and be there for her, you know, and so, um, like I, I love it, like I truly love it, you know, and, and I, I'd I'd rather not be, I'd rather do that than go surfing or be somewhere else. Like I, I honestly, if it was a great surf trip on that week, I'd be kind of I'd be bummed to miss that for her, with her, and of course, there's going to be times when that happens, but I truly want to cherish those moments with the kids.
Speaker 1:So how weird was it for you Cause I know it was weird for me. I had the pleasure of breaking my foot when Caleb was six months old. Remember that and I just remembered the ways were so good. It was so good that year. You know I cannot serve it is. You know I broke. That broke at the day after Thanksgiving. I was supposed to be getting a tree broke by foot and that whole season was probably one of the best surf seasons I've ever seen, ever in Santa Cruz, and I could just feel my animosity just building Right.
Speaker 3:Didn't I come back and rub it in?
Speaker 1:The surf was so good, but it was strange, you know, making that decision about like wait a minute, I only got 18 years of this.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:That's going to come back, this little being hopefully, hopefully, like really doesn't you know? Yeah it's just that, you know, I had the physicality of having to face that right and being stuck with it. You know it was. It wasn't like, I mean, I would have been surfing had I not been down there with my son, right, right, that's that that. That so sort of had that physical example happening. At the same time I was making a choice you know like the trauma fixed it.
Speaker 1:You know it was a big shift for me that I became very family oriented. After I broke my foot, my animosity about surfing left.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know what? Is there a pivot point for you where it's like you know you just decided hey, you know, this is better than that. Or did it just kind of fade into that at some point?
Speaker 3:I think it was when Madison was born.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We've been looking at old videos. Kara's put together all our old VHS tapes and all those tapes onto DVDs. She got them burned onto DVDs and we've been watching those videos and you just see, kara and I like, just like, doing whatever we're doing with the kids, you know, like it just like, of course, your life changes when you have a kid, like that's a first and foremost. But I think it just was at that moment, I think the moments of just knowing that they're not always going to be there, they're going to leave at some point, they're going to grow up, and I think I don't know if I had a pivot point, like you know, like you had, but I think it was just something that was there from the beginning of, like this is who I'm going to be with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do your parents show up to your games.
Speaker 3:I think so. They did, they did, I think they did, um I would say, most of the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they were. They were there like my, my soccer growing up. Um, I think it was different then too, right?
Speaker 1:It was.
Speaker 3:I mean my dad worked all day so he wasn't able to make it all the time he worked on weekends. But yeah, they definitely supported it. But I think it's different today. I think the support system is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is different, but it is born out of I mean to me, you know, I, I really look back and think about how few parents were in the stands right. You know it's true, and that's that's really the reality of of. You know what? What are we coaching? I mean, I know why I stepped away from coaching for a while. It's because there's nothing but parents. Now, you know it's, it's created a dynamic that that's made it much harder to actually coach the child?
Speaker 1:yes, because you're coaching the whole damn group at this point right I've had brothers come up to me and you know, talk to me after the mom and the dad and you're just like dude like. But okay, how big is your family yeah, I don't think we got enough months to explain the same thing to all of you that it's your child right Playing. You are not playing Right. That's that they need to learn to communicate with me. You guys don't need to learn to do that, that's right.
Speaker 1:You know, but you know so most of of how I coach, why I coach. You know why I do things. You know I didn't do it on a negative. I just kind of knew more of what I would have wanted and it's kind of built into being a kid and how much that was just kind of pushed out a little bit. I think with our generation of like that's just what the kids do. The adults have their own world.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And you know the kids really weren't invited to that world Right. You know so. I you know I don't want to put too much weight in it. You know things have changed. I don't know if it's changed for the better entirely by having everybody there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a lot of support, but there's too much support, no, it's not all support, it's just a lot there. Right, no, it's a lot there. You're bringing all of it every time.
Speaker 1:We're just playing baseball, people Throwing balls at each other Right At 10.
Speaker 3:Yes, they're 10.
Speaker 1:I don't know if they're going to be a pro.
Speaker 3:Right, that's always the underlying premise. It's like let's be real yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we're getting close to closing up here, really yeah, it's been an hour.
Speaker 3:What.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 3:No way, I know that's amazing.
Speaker 1:I mean I can kind of talk to my audience about what I'm doing here. You know, as you've come to listen to this thing, you know the early audience is listening. The later audience will be hearing this differently. But I very purposely kind of kept it hidden, mostly so I could get very fresh takes on raw conversations on the realities of me being me.
Speaker 1:People can hear the voices of friends that have held me together. We didn't go that deep you know, in the sense that you know, to the core of our friendship values those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:But there's a certain reality, though, kevin, that I don't know if you know this about you, but you were someone that has held me together, like if you were not in my life. I don't know what my life would have been like, just period and just the mere fact that in a podcast with I think is serious of things that we have been through together and they've been very serious, like you, you are one of. You know four or five people that know truly what I've gone through. You certainly watch. You know the last five years. You know me getting things back at back in line here the last year and a half or so. You've watched all this, but you remain the same and the value of that to me.
Speaker 1:You know this is what I'm talking about People those who you're listing that it takes all kinds of different people to make your village up. What you've been to me is just a great friend and just by being friendly and friend-ish and friend-like, you know doing normal things, taking me to Tahoe and having a panic attack First one in a long time that was weird, but a really good trip. You know just those good times, whether it's going and invading all of California and throwing the surf scene off for five days Right. With mohawks, with a group of guys acting like morons, like morons or you know getting, getting that.
Speaker 1:You know parts of that collected group together again and and doing what? We did in tahoe here this last. What was it? October? And we did that, but just you being you and having your house open and you know I I think in a way mirroring a little bit of what your parents did, but really taking it a step up, you know, of really understanding the value of those moments when you were young and just adding so much more to it.
Speaker 1:At least for me, I get to openly say thank you to everybody including you, for for those times and and uh, I'll let you close out with what the friendships meant to you. You know, both as a human and, I guess, personally.
Speaker 3:Well, you are a true friend. You are my best friend. You don't fluctuate between top six like I do to you, asshole. No, you truly are a true friend and you've been a true friend for many years and I do cherish our friendship 100% and I feel that there aren't really any other friends out there in my life like you at all and I truly appreciate you and I love you and I feel that you always care how I'm doing or how Kara is doing, and that's a true friend. And when you ask, how are you doing today, I'll say, oh, good, and then you'll say, kevin, how are you doing today? Yes, and that means a lot. Yeah, and I and I thank you for that because that's a real friend that really cares like how I'm doing. Yeah, um, you said I was gonna cry he's cried a little bit, he just didn't.
Speaker 1:Uh, he just teared up a little bit. Did you cry a little bit just now?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thanks, yeah, we love each other.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we truly do.
Speaker 1:A little bit of a bro fest. A bro fest for sure.
Speaker 3:No, but Mike is a true friend and it's so awesome to have you in my life, like I'm lucky, truly lucky. Yeah, like I didn't think of this until like years ago, but like when you sit, look back on our friendship and you look back on our experiences and being together and what we do. Even if we don't see each other for a few weeks or whatever, we're still like we. I still feel like you know who I am and you know what I may need at that point. Right, and that is a true friend and I thank you for that. Yeah, truly, that's, it's a, it's a I'm very lucky to have you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I love you brother.
Speaker 3:I love you too.
Speaker 1:It was fun talking with you and uh love all of you. Have a good rest of your day. Everybody's for you now.
Speaker 2:What happens next? What happens next? I dare you to move. I dare you to move Night.