Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Mike Howard talking ....
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
EPISODE 28: Michael Painter: A Journey Through Friendship, Spirituality, and Healing Conversations
Have you ever wondered how a client-professional relationship can evolve into a deeply meaningful friendship over two decades? Join me as I sit down with my dear friend Michael Painter, reflecting on our 24-year journey from business meetings to heartfelt conversations. We reminisce about Michael's fascinating life in Santa Cruz, his ministry background, and his experiences coaching baseball. Together, we unearth the cultural intricacies of Santa Cruz, from the local surfing culture to its social dynamics, and highlight the mutual respect and camaraderie that has defined our relationship.
Discover the transformative power of creating healing spaces through conversation. In this episode, I share how prioritizing genuine appreciation and healing actions can significantly deepen relationships and create positive ripples in our lives. Listen to personal anecdotes from both of us—like a minor conflict at work and the dynamics between my two sons, Zachariah and Elijah—that add richness to our discussion. We also explore the inception of the podcast, the unique intimacy of audio-only conversations, and how these discussions have been a tool for processing personal experiences.
Venture with us into the intricate journey from evangelicalism to a broader spiritual understanding, significantly influenced by Richard Rohr's inclusive theology. We dive into the nuances between empathy and sympathy, the challenges of leadership, and the vital importance of self-compassion and curiosity. Through reflections on various religious traditions, personal anecdotes, and insights from psychology, we underscore the significance of genuine connection, boundaries, and compassion in navigating life's challenges. Join us for a heartfelt exploration of friendship, spirituality, and personal growth.
Welcome to the Unpacked and Naked podcast. My name is Michael Howard. You are listening to yes, almost permanent member of the podcast, Colin Brown, a song called Let your Healing, and I actually get to use this theme song all the time now. I'm pretty excited about it. Anyways, I am sitting here with a really good friend of mine, Michael Painter and Michael, you're here.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's good to see you, michael, two Michaels at a table. Michael squared, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're.
Speaker 1:Uh, I'll lay two peas in a pod, you know we're very different but very similar, I think, and maybe that's the layered that's right, you know it's.
Speaker 2:it uh, does make it a little bit more complicated with us because, uh, I'm not sure where I begin and you end in our thinking process, and it certainly has been well gosh, you've been a great joy to my life. But before I dive too deep onto that personal side, I do want to thank two of our sponsors here. We are, of course, sitting here at the Pointside Beach Shack, and this is your first time seeing it.
Speaker 1:I'm very impressed.
Speaker 2:I had no idea there was a hidden gym like this Feet from the street yes, yeah, it's a pretty cool endeavor.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of adjusting your volume here a little bit, michael, because I'm not quite getting it, no problem Anyhow. Yeah, and I want to add a new sponsor to us. This is Pointside Market and you can get your lovely meat from Freedom Meat Locker at Pointside Market. But Maddie's running a great little show up there and you know this is beginning to be a little hot spot and I certainly appreciate the help that they've brought to the podcast. But anyway, moving forward, michael, you and I have been, you know we were clients at first and it became pretty evident early on, back in what 2000.
Speaker 1:I've lost track of time, but it's been a long time. Yeah, yeah, somewhat infinite maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's. It's now been 24 years that we have spent 45 minutes or more once a month getting to know each other. Becoming friends were a part of my life as I was in ministry that I was able to reference to, to get content from, to bounce where I was at, from. You live very large in that lexicon of humans, even though I was spending or sending most of my clients to a particular friend of ours who's made probably a pretty healthy living off of the dozens and dozens of people that were above my pay grade in the particular situations that I was in in ministry. But I don't know that you've heard from my voice what I'm about to say to you and really how important a person you've been to me just as a parent, as a friend, um, how much I look forward to seeing you.
Speaker 2:You know, as a client, there's a lot that's gone on between us. Your kids are just a couple years older than mine. You were coaching baseball before me. You know, I saw the pain in your eyes coaching baseball, seeing the behaviors. You know just life, and you're from Santa Cruz. But you're from a different part of Santa Cruz and you're up in the hills. What?
Speaker 1:town was that? Well, to be fair, well, I'm going on 55 and about 45 of those years have been in Santa Cruz. So I don't necessarily say I'm going on 55, and about 45 of those years have been in Santa Cruz, so I don't necessarily say I'm from Santa Cruz. But you know, because there's diehard free generation, oh yeah, yeah. But you know I do call this home, given the majority of my life, and I did go to school in multiple locations, starting around third grade and largely in San Lorenzo Valley, but then over here in Aptos for a bit, and then I'd say most of my childhood years were in San Lorenzo Valley, I would say. And then I did come back at 18 and went to UCSC. So I sort of returned here to go to college and really have been here since then. So I had a number of years as a, you know, under 18 and then most of my years post 18 have been here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, so the audience. I do want to delineate this thing that we're referring to. Oh, you know two things. Yeah, number one. You're very quick to say you're not from here. Well, but it's a thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 2:And it's not. I think it's actually important to talk about this, that there is a very cultural vibe um to what I'm alluding to, that, that that you have a certain wisdom of saying no, actually I'm not from here, because it's a freaking gang here, like, like, it's horrible, hey I did even try serving for a bit and you know I remember the east side. Yeah, yeah and and we're laughing about it, but it's not funny, you know, because you tried surfing, but being that you weren't even coastal, that you lived in SLV.
Speaker 2:that added an even worse layer to the kind of behaviors that you probably received.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what's interesting on that? I did not know we were going to talk about this, but we'll go back deep in my memory here.
Speaker 1:But but when I lived here as a child under 18, I actually didn't surf Right. So I and then I had to. I went to high school down South and I actually had a bet. My one of my best friends lived in Huntington beach and so somewhere 15, 16, you know, is when I kind of really did surfing in Huntington Beach. Yeah, yeah. So then when I came here at 18, I came back to Santa Cruz but I was like, oh, I know how to surf right and Santa Cruz is amazing, you know, obviously the water's colder than down there, but so that's when I experienced all the oh interesting you know,
Speaker 2:Cowles Beach versus you know the lighthouse versus east side versus oh, there's culture wars. Here there's various asshole behavior depending on the location that you've decided to get wet in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's just funny, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so again for my audience and kind of contextualizing how I'm bringing you in, on top of the long-term friendship I, generally speaking, have looked to you the last couple years for a cycle of sobriety that that I've gone through and and you know the story is already sitting in the lexicon of the prod podcast. So you know this is a little bit dry for you, but, but I am in fact sitting in front of the man who has helped me think through this process. You know, because Michael knows me well. He has seen my shadow for a very long time and you know, as I've begun to do shadow work here in the last two years of getting out of the vernacular I was used to in Christianity and scripturally, a lot of the conversations we had the 20 years previous really came to life in a new way by by me approaching my shadow and and beginning to, to to see it for what it was.
Speaker 2:You know, using terms like ego, which, which you know I was very evasive about you know, through the years and as I've learned to begin to approach this thing, it's been really really good and really important and for me, in the cycle of what I'm going through, I want you to know, as a friend, that the peace that you brought to my marriage that you are and you have existed is so important.
Speaker 2:You know, because when things come up with my wife about my cycle, where I've been at, you know as it pertains. You know, as I've expressed to you, my sobriety has had to do with meaning. It had nothing to do with alcohol. You know. Alcohol was a component, because it was a coping mechanism. The words that you brought to it, even me beginning at AA, and you know the warning that you gave me about the, what would be the friction point for me.
Speaker 2:You know, and and this is this is what makes a lot of my relationships very, very unique is that you know, you've known me and you know me as a young man where adults that are the same age now having much of the same experience of attempting to raise kids, you know, trying to affect our marriages in really good ways. You know, being the men that we're meant to be, the security of you being you has allowed my marriage to be secure, because Kim trusts you, even though she doesn't know you because of the history. You know and she knows that you know, cause I've always had. You know, we've had an agreement that there are just some things that aren't really good for us to share with each other. But you know, you're that guy and you know and it's like she got she'll she'll look at me, she'll, she'll, she'll look at, look at me in the eye.
Speaker 2:Like I think you need to talk to Michael.
Speaker 2:You know I'm seeing this thing show up again and and you don't know about those details sitting sitting back in our marriage.
Speaker 2:But but you know the anchor that you've been in the last two years, even though there hasn't been, you know, a whole lot of dialogue, um, you know just the security of that anchor.
Speaker 2:You know just just knowing that you're there for me, for my wife has has just been immeasurable and and so I want to thank you not just for the friendship but for being an anchor for a long time and the fun comings and goings about talking about ideologies and different philosophies Christian, buddhist, whatever else the things that have shaped me. You really live way more than you can imagine and in my thinking, in the way that I've counseled people, in the way that I have behaved, and you're just a very, very important person to me, and it was, you know, in this process of podcasting. It's been very good to rehearse those things, to remind myself of the really, really quality people that have been in my life, that have sat in my chair, that I've been able to serve, but I'm not sure if I didn't get more you know from from from that relationship, you know, I got money and you got pretty hair you know, uh, you know all the ones that are left, that's right.
Speaker 2:You know, you really haven't lost that much hair. I hate to tell you that, but the hairline's kind of been slammed in. You've just finally grown into it, so it all matches there you go, that's right. Anyways. So, michael, I'd love for you to tell our audience just a little bit about yourself. You know you mentioned you went to UCSC. You know what's your degree in, what do you do for work. You know, keep it, keep it pretty, pretty simple.
Speaker 1:The LinkedIn elevators. The LinkedIn elevator Um yeah, well, first I just want to say that you know, as you're looking at me, talking to me, revealing some of these things which I don't know that I've heard before, to be honest um, at least the depth of that you're sharing right now, I just how amazing it is that you have a space like how. Sometimes here I'll back up Sometimes one thing that guides me, or my actions, or what do I do next, or I use as a rubric for decisions, is what is the most healing thing that could occur right now in this co-created space, right, and so I was just having this flash of wow, what a wonderful idea to do. That is a thing that is the most healing thing to do in a co-creative space, right, and so to me, you're creating this platform of basically offering appreciation, gratitude, you're deepening relationships, like, and so I just like yes, there's a podcast, you have these technical tools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these little gadgets there, but I think what really is occurring is like an amazing creation of a space that deepens. Well, you know me, I go down rabbit holes, right. Yeah, deepened space meaning like I think deepening it here does have a ripple effect in the world, right? So now, when we both leave I was actually before you turned the recorder on I was sharing how I was having a bit of a hard day, which is not totally unusual, but it was a little. There was a little extra today, so, but already just in your introduction, I'm noticing how I'm going to leave.
Speaker 1:I think, like the little, I had a little rift with one of my own staff, very small, but like, oh, there's an open loop, I need to go back and restore that, right. I, very small, but like, oh, there's an open loop, I need to go back and restore that, right. I already had logged it this morning before I showed up here, and already I can feel this pull from almost my, my chest and my like I just can't wait to talk to this person to sort of just remind them how much I care about them and appreciate them, and I'm I'm just because you just did it, so like already I'm seeing where the ripples go.
Speaker 2:I guess what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1:And we don't even know where they all go. So that was my start is appreciating your process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, you know you're speaking to the purpose of really why I started talking in a microphone again. You know, which I never imagined I would ever start doing again once I left ministry, you know, trying to create this space. And you know, in a broader sense, of course, you know, and and both you and I have done a tremendous amount of counseling for you know, others, for ourselves you know that your, your work, is constantly a space where you're having to do those sorts of things. But for the podcast in particular, you know I had done a thousand page of writing and you know the genesis of this thing was horrible because my wife started reading, like she read one page and she's like, oh God, you've got to have a podcast. This is so stupid.
Speaker 1:You know she was already upset with me because I was like waking up at four o'clock in the morning and I just started going.
Speaker 2:You know I would go from like four to 10 or four to nine writing and just data dumping and just getting this this story out and realizing, you know, that there was no creative way to to process what it was, that I had gone through what it was. You know that I had been through. You know how it is, that you know I was in a way wanting to justify the reason why I was at where I was at and it wasn't coming out in my writing in an effective way. That would be beneficial. You know, there were only a couple of people I allowed to read a full, my full first chapter. They were wiped out.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right Dear.
Speaker 2:God, like the first chapter is a book and you've ruined me for about a month. Like, I just feel like I need to go to sleep, you know, and sleep it off. And you know, of course, as heavy by orating rather than dictating. You know, through pages, you know what it is. My perspective is Because you know we get this back and forth. You know, just sitting with someone else, you can feel the intimacy. Just sitting with someone else, you can feel the intimacy you know we've certainly talked about. You know, putting cameras up and really almost almost how much that would remove what actually happens when it's just audible. You know when, when people can feel the feels without having to have a visual. So there there's this honest conversation going on with my podcast producer about, like, do we ever want to go visual? And so far that answers no, because it really takes away from the intimacy of these moments, cause right now I'm just sitting across from my friend you know, I can see that.
Speaker 1:I mean even on zoom. I have tons of zoom meetings all the time and um, there is a setting I've found that you can remove your view of yourself but, it's really hard not to look at yourself when you're on zoom, and so I had this flash of us doing it. If there was a camera there was, the inclination would be to glance at like, yeah, do I look, you know?
Speaker 2:so I think.
Speaker 1:I think there's some truth there.
Speaker 2:For sure, yeah so why don't you tell us a little bit about but so so you have two children yep been married for how long?
Speaker 1:yeah, uh, well, married. I uh next year will be years, okay, and you'll see, there's a slight difference in my kids' age. My son is 31. My older son sorry and my younger is 27.
Speaker 2:He's 28. He's 28 now, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because my older just turned 31, so they're two and a half years apart, zachariah and Elijah, and one of them. I say that we have a mountain man and a city slicker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zachariah and Elijah, and one of them, I say that we have a mountain man and a city slicker.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you want to go into that, but my mountain man he lives up North, he definitely is. You know he did a short stint as a law enforcement officer here locally in this county and then he's actually moved on and he's now a social worker. And just you don't even know this, but he got a job at hospice. So that's his latest role up there, and then my younger one is running sort of a fashion store in Marin County living in.
Speaker 1:San Francisco, and that's why I say we have a city slicker and a mountain man. Well, I was going to say something about layers because, well, I'll say real quickly, I forgot my LinkedIn speech right, so I did go to UCSC quite a long time ago. Of course, it was, in essence, my gateway back to Santa Cruz, which I really appreciated. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I got a, believe it or not. I got a degree in philosophy, which very few people know, and so I am not surprised.
Speaker 1:So you know, the joke was always well then, are you going to either be a professor or a lawyer? Because I don't know well who else you do that want to be either of those at the moment. And I realized what I really wanted, so I got it. You know, when I say philosophy, what it really meant at UCSC was a degree in Western civilization. Thought right, what I really realized is oh, I was seeking something more spiritual. And so, you know, not too long later I got. I ended up getting a master's in counseling. I ended up going to a place called Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, and the reason I went there was because they were honoring. There's something else. It's not just cognitive, intellectual, psychological, self-help or even philosophical help. There's a spiritual component to this thing called living. And so, anyway, I got my degree.
Speaker 2:So did you get your FML from that?
Speaker 1:Right. So then that set you up, or set me up, to take the licensure exam for being a family therapist. So I did that and in the process of doing that, as many people know, to get a psychological license or a psychotherapeutic license you need to do several thousand hours and they have to be variety.
Speaker 2:Couples kids, adults individuals have to be variety couples, kids, you know exactly so.
Speaker 1:So that took me to schools and I ended up working at an elementary school over the hill in San Jose for a couple of years, and then I got a job here at the county office of education working with the teens, and so, long story short, um, I realized, oh, I do like schools, I think I want to stay here, I think this is the kind of work I want to do, and so really what I've done in the last 20 years 20 plus years is work at this intersection of mental health and schools. And so then I've subsequently got a doctorate in education administrators certificate, and they call it designated subjects teaching credential. So I've sort of gathered the, I guess, the psychotherapeutic and the educational credentials in order to sort of lead a department at the County Office of Education that does and offers supportive services to all the school districts, and that's kind of that's the job that I, you know, come to you in the middle of and get my hair cut, and then this is what I wanted to lead in, and then I'll pause again to the layers, because what I'm recently experiencing at least this new way of seeing it and using this vernacular is that I'm trying to lead at three layers deep and I'll tell you what that means. But I think when I show up to you, it's also what we do and that's probably part of the mutual inspiration. And so the very shortest version of this is that I feel like most of the world, but especially at work, especially for a boss and staff, there's that first layer, which I call sort of the transactional, even production layer, if you will, and that's what happens at most workplaces. I need this. This is the due date, are you on time? Did you do your hours? Are there any problems, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1:Second layer to me is when you talk about work, cultures and icebergs, there's a waterline and often what's under the waterline, the lower part of the iceberg, is not talked about, not overtly, definitely not in a healing, restorative way. And then the third layer, which is, I think, where you come in most, is that and I just started reading a man named Henry Schuckman, who's, I think, a poet, a writer, a Zen priest, but he talks about original love versus original sin. And ultimately it's this thing we often get to Michael, where we're talking about well, a priori, we're already okay, we're already whole, we're already good, we're already the essence of love it's how do we sort of remember and use and develop skills to embody that? And so I feel like what I'm trying to do on a different level we don't need to talk about, is I'm trying to see can you do that in a workplace and how does that look? So I call it managing it three layers deep.
Speaker 1:But I feel like what we stumbled upon very early was I come to you, I need a haircut. That's very transactional, you know. We often, like you said, we talk about symptoms that are arising for you, or that I might be having a hard day. I think it's very mutual, we share like oh, this is what's going on. Here's a few hacks, if you will, or psychological tools, or some perspective taking or, like you said, said your shadow, let's talk about Carl Jung or whatever.
Speaker 1:But then I feel like, ultimately, what really binds, at least from my side, us is this like intuitive, ancient, perennial, infinite knowledge that and I know we've had debates around some of the vernacular used but that we have a sense of and that we crave and that we're moving towards and and almost, is what guides our life, and I think part of our dynamic has been oh but well, how is Thich Nhat Hanh saying something different than Richard Rohr than evangelicals, then you know even Taoists, or sometimes Muslims, or you know, and I feel like to me, I think I've always come from a place of, just because you have a different verbiage or cultural or racial difference, how you grew up, meaning you have a different reference point in, and vernacular does not mean the, the indescribable, which I think is more correct.
Speaker 1:Truth of existence is not, we're not, we're not kind of touching the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think that has been a lot of our dialogue in my in my recollection.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and both of us working those things out. Yeah, you know it's. I think it's fair to say we both have a very strong affinity towards Richard Rohr.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know that that where everything meets in the middle. Yeah, yeah, everything belongs right.
Speaker 2:That makes sense that we would a certain reality that lives in fear being licensed the way I was, from the very scattered theology of evangelicalism Moving back to the orthodoxy.
Speaker 2:When I do go to church, I go to mass. I am not Catholic, yet we're heavily considering it, just to have place right, Just to have an identity with people globally. You know so, as we, I have an earthly connection in a way to some sort of spiritual boundary that lives in a theology that is mostly acceptable. You know it's not necessarily my whole view of God, and it was Father Rohr that allowed me the space to cross that bridge, to change my vernacular about these things, to approach religious cultures in a new and open way, realizing that the Hindus are monotheist tradition, also not getting caught up with the evangelical version of what we perceive they were. You and I have mostly had very, very long talks about Buddhism, Of course, for years it was. Where I disagree with Buddhist theology is in the nothingness that there really is a strong identity that we can gain from God, and turning myself into nothing was not the prospect that I was really all that interested in.
Speaker 2:But you know, in my own personal growth really realizing you know what the Buddha was attempting to acknowledge, which was the ego and how it manifests.
Speaker 2:You know, of course, in my sobriety work, that's the first thing you go after. You know, it's pretty rough work and when you approach the ego, you approach your shadow. You're right-sitting with Jung all of a sudden, and it's not as though I didn't utilize the tools that Jung and Freud have given us in science to approach psychology. It's just that when you're hearing the background stories of these tormented men, you know and and you know wanting to disassociate from that torment, even though I had my own there's just things you guard your heart from. And you know, as I, as I've matured more and and am able to not have to have those boundaries up because because, yeah, you know I'm we're having the same conversations, you know, and and I think that was at least on my end always one of the struggle points is we were talking about the same things using different words and none of them were the wrong words exactly you know they all blended because everything does belong and all of these cultures are trying to interpret something none of us are really meant to understand.
Speaker 2:And and I really love you know, I was listening to a very important bishop in the Catholic world talking about you know God, and it was Augustine's version of God that Augustine tried to explain best. You know when, when asked what's your name, I am that I am.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:It was, I am and I am not. Yes Is the best English version we can get to. Yeah, look around you. Yeah, I'm all that, but don't you dare define me by that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That I am much bigger than your little box. You're going to try to put me in.
Speaker 1:Right. By definition, it's larger than you can conceive, right.
Speaker 1:Which I think is why the poets are often the best at possibly describing, because they're just pointing, and I do think that it's funny because I thought a lot about nothingness and detachment is another huge one in buddhism that I think are actually really in my, in my view, they're the wrong terms in english I doubt they, you know, I doubt that's where they're original just like I, I recently I won't go into this down this rabbit hole, but I recently I've been listening to a guy that was interpreting the bible through the aramaic translation um, and it's just a tiny shift in words of how they take the root of this and they say it means this, not this, and then you start to see, oh, this is where sort of the mystical arm of Christianity, at least in this case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Franciscans yeah.
Speaker 1:Right versus the religious arm, and then this is my little bit cynical view. But then you start to see why certain words were chosen for the religious side, which did keep things simpler, more in order, even more ability to control, if you will, whereas the mystical side really remained like well that I don't know what to do then. That's overwhelming. That could be. Then why should other people have more power? Like it brings, it creates more questions, which I think is more present moment, whereas I feel like some of the words used to create a religious or religiosity seem to want to close or stop questioning. They want to settle and get a shirt pocket definition, say oh, I figured this out, this is what it is, I'm this, I don't have to think anymore or be open to that. Oh my gosh, there's actually infinite possibilities and I have a lot of um like I both have a lot of sway in that and I don't at the same time.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Um, and the last thing I'll say is um, you know like, and I haven't thought about nothing, this a replacement, but I thought about detachment, and detachment, like people end up going, oh, that means you don't care about anything. It's almost like nihilism.
Speaker 2:When I look at detachment.
Speaker 1:in Buddhism it really means almost like the visual of the sacred heart of Jesus where like, oh, no, no, no. It means that I am actually deeply, intimately committed to this moment and what's in front of me and the humans and the energy and nature, and I even feel pain and suffering and sensitivity about it. It's just that I'm not clinging to it, going one direction or another right, it's, it's, it's. And that doesn't even mean you don't decide to go left or right. It just means that you're not spending an inordinate amount of energy psychologically and mentally to try and control the external variables, to know what is. I feel like I'm maybe getting a little off track here, but remember I warned you about this.
Speaker 2:You told me, so I had that moment. Where am I going?
Speaker 1:Because, as I'm saying something, I even counter myself sometimes, but what I think it is this is the slippery part, this is why it's hard to describe is that I am both 110%, when, when I'm able to invested in this moment and I care more than normal, not less, not detached, not uncaring. I care more than normal, right, and at the same time I think what it is is I'm quiet enough to remember when I said earlier, what is the um, what's the most healing, maybe phenomenon, movement, decision that can happen in this co-creative space that we're in together. I feel like true detachment is me loving the moment enough and being quiet enough to then let it guide me to that place.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is, again, I am deciding and also not the deciding. That's where I get yeah.
Speaker 2:So let me sneak in here, yeah go ahead and let's not be afraid to be in this rabbit hole the whole time.
Speaker 2:Okay so you don't have to feel like we have some sort of agenda rabbit hole the whole time. So you don't. You don't have to feel like we have some sort of agenda. It's been funny cause cause my wife Kim has been. We've been talking about me and how I get overly connected to situations that involve people. Right, right, you know I'm so concerned for people that I don't detach easily and that has been my Achilles heel through ministry, through life, all these sorts of things. And over the course of the last two years she has called her perspective a detachment order, not a disorder.
Speaker 2:That she because of the early childhood traumas she experienced, was able to learn to detach from situations that really didn't involve her, that it was other people's bullshit. You know that they were projecting and it's something she does intuitively because of her early trauma, uh, but she's. That allows her to see people for where they're at and then connect where she can, and then if she can't connect, she just doesn't, you know, and but it's in any given situation. You know like she doesn't dismiss people, she just doesn't allow herself to get involved in their stuff and you know it's something I've watched for 34 years now and you're like how do you do that?
Speaker 2:Like and you know, and it's kind of unfair, you know, for us who have to learn these things, cause it was just intuition to survive her moments. That that's how she survived those things and that's her story to tell. But the point being is that I've learned so much more from my wife. Of course, you and I are both people who learn a lot from our wives, from our wives, and that's one of the things that has made us more attracted to and better spouses is that we have this mutually, what I would call mutually submitted relationship, that we are not othering our wives. We're realizing that collectively we are a being together and how to better be that being together. It's a load that she's carried for the first 32 years of our marriage. I'm learning to now help carry that load.
Speaker 2:Something happens at the shop here, just, you know, across the walkway of once that appointment ends, the thing ends. You know it's being present in that moment, allowing the moment to happen, being done with the moment, and so, to your point, it's not detachment anymore, you know, as in, I'm just avoiding, and you know again, I think that's because most of the prognosticators, especially, you know, in the early aughts, who were, you know, in the self-help movement were basically people that were just being independent of others independent of others and and not really having an impact on other people and saying you should be independent without influence. You know, I mean, you know as well as I do if you can be as great as you want, but if it doesn't help anybody else, who cares?
Speaker 1:um right.
Speaker 2:That's the whole idea of the bodhisattva right, which is great that you have some awareness or some how about every other human being to affecting others is always going to be suffering, Be sure you suffer well for the right reason is really been a method that I've tried to use to approach these really heavy realities that when people get in situations, unless you're suffering with them, you're not in it. That there is a deep spiritual connection to humanity. And when your friend is dying, when your friend is going through a divorce, when your friend is suffering, if you're not willing to sit and suffer with them, there is no friendship because you're not connected to the situation.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've seen that there's a Brene Brown little video right, speaking of people that make me cry on the regular yes, brene Brown.
Speaker 1:And again, I don't know if she has a lot of these, but it's like a cartoon video, so it's about empathy versus sympathy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it shows, like I think it's. It doesn't really matter if it's an animal. Maybe a bear is walking by this sort of opening that has a ladder down to a room and so the bear pops his head in and sees like a rabbit or something, and it's crying and, you know, curled up right in the corner oh hey, looks like you're having a hard time, sorry about that. Throws the sandwich down there. So they walk on. That's sympathy, right. Then they show another clip and the bear notices that oh, walks down the ladder, sits next to the rabbit in the corner, puts his arm around the rabbit and says, wow, it seems like you're having a hard time. That's empathy, right. And it was such a chilling little like I love. It stuck in my brain because I was like oh, that's such a good visual for the difference of what we do sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, I really do think it is because for those of us who are empaths which is really what I'm a classic form of, as as someone who's just willing to sit with and be with and reason with in these moments, you know not falling for the trap that Job's friends got into of reasoning with why things are bad. You know, and then you inherently blame the person for for for what's gone wrong in their life. You know, as someone who's, and then you inherently blame the person for what's gone wrong in their life, as someone who's learned to truly operate in that empathetic state with others, there's a torment healthy to take on other people's burdens as though they're your own, unless they're really willing to do the work themselves. Once that's been identified. And you know, in in talk therapy you know called CBT there, you know I've recognized that with therapists that I've worked with. You know called CBT there, you know I've recognized that with therapists that I've worked with. You know listening to my own son talking about his disconnect a little bit with with the CBT thing, where it's like, okay, hours up you're done. You know, give me, give me my 200 bucks for the hour and and I was glad for you to pay me to be your friend for an hour. You know how to bridge.
Speaker 2:That really, I believe, is the next step in these types of therapies counseling things like that. And you know, I personally think when I look at the therapy world, there's going to be a lot of growing. That needs to do. You know guys like Stutz I don't know if you know who Stutz is who isn't afraid to be abrasive and don't bullshit me. We're here to work on stuff. I don't want to hear about your problems, that thing which is a real breach of the rules that are in the therapy world. I'm one of those kinds of guys. You know there are ways to approach it, you know that are far gentler, but this reality that just talking about your problems might just be rehearsing and creating more trauma, uh you know how, how to get past.
Speaker 2:That, you know is is definitely a void that needs to be filled, I think, in the near future. Um, you know, as, as we do have these generations behind us, millennials who basically checked out of the way they were parented I, you know, as I've expressed before I, they're wonderful parents Like I've got to spend a lot of time with them and see how they're parenting much differently than we had with the boundaries that were put up culturally for us. I'm very much looking forward to our children raising children in Gen Z, where they're just far kinder than the millennials were to each other. So there's this kindness thread that I'm watching emerge from, you know, the information that we got that we didn't necessarily translate well, and them actually being able to utilize that information in a kinder way, you know, not being so transactional with it. You know. So you know here's how you do it. You know, either do it or don't do it. You know that seems like a better combination of empathy, sympathy and information that is emerging from gen z that I'm observing and and I'm looking forward to them adulting more and seeing what becomes present as they become children, as they become parents, seeing, seeing the flaws of the previous generations. You know, whether it's in politics, economics, whatever else they're, they're bearing the burden and they have to solve the problem. I'm really proud of who they are as people, having bore witness to the bullshit that they've been raised in and the lies that we've had to tell ourselves.
Speaker 2:To get up in the morning, you know to function. You know I think both of us are empaths. You know, waking up in the morning, you know to function. You know. I think both of us are empaths. You know waking up in the morning is a deal, you know, because you know you kind of have to lie to yourself to get through the day. So I'm a little excited about seeing that happen. You know I'm not wanting my kids to necessarily have kids now because I'm not sure if I'm ready to be a grandpa. But you know, here it comes.
Speaker 1:I do want to go ready to be a grandpa, but you know here, here, here it comes.
Speaker 2:I do want to go back to something you said, cause there there was a cycle, uh, that you were expressing. I'd love to hear your thoughts a little bit more on it. Um, one of one of my old associates, uh, a man I really admire, is a guy named Sundar Cook, and and he is, he is a doctor, not a PhD, phd, um, and a brain doctor and also a counselor and and and psychologist, psychiatrist in this vein big brainy guy, sure, but I, I know, uh, I was at one of his lectures like again, he's a pastor, friend of mine's son. Uh, he couldn't figure out why he thought of his dad as his dad, even though he wasn't his biological dad, because he was adopted. What was that thing? So his whole thesis for the PhD side of that neuroscience stuff was what happens to the brain when you're loved as a father could only love a son and what that does to you biologically.
Speaker 2:But he was talking to a group of leaders and he talked about three types of relationships that we have that we have these relationships where we're only giving. Then we have these transactional ones that you're talking about that are mutually beneficial, and the problem that most leaders have is we never take. We become afraid to have a relationship where we're only receiving, and that was the primary problem that was going on with the denomination is that we were trying to make these other relationships transactional, never receiving in essence, in a way that god would give to us, and how isolating that was as a leader when you're not receiving. You know and it was really I it was really eye-opening for me, like it was hard, you know, and it was, honestly, is the beginning of my like well, I might need to get out of ministry. Moment of like. I don't even know how to do this. I don't know how to just get something and just accept it.
Speaker 2:And it was a dark spot for me once I realized how much authority I add to only giving and then how much abuse someone might be taking when I need a transaction in some way when it needs to be some mutually beneficial spot and that mutual benefit that we talk about in terms of friendship, those kinds of things, the kind of damage you can end up doing because you're not receiving. And he was very precise Because he had the science to prove it at the time. Yeah, interesting, it's like if you are not willing to receive you should not be in leadership period, and it was again very eye-opening. It was. And again, you know, part of my alarm at the time was like people how few people could hear that, you know because because the Christianity that we're trying to aspire to is so service oriented. So I'm not sure if you have any thoughts about that or you know whether that's it.
Speaker 1:Well, again, obviously I'm not a minister, right, and so I haven't been in that exact context, but I have. I, as I noted, I lead a department of a couple dozen people and I have my own little hub I call it of the sort of inner, you know, mid-management, if you will and I already talked to you about trying to manage or lead three layers deep. So what activated in my mind when you spoke was a place I often feel a little bit of bewilderment, which is how so they often talk about. You know lead by following right or things like that.
Speaker 2:There's all these catchphrases.
Speaker 1:And I don't again, conceptually, a lot of these things make sense Most. A lot of us could write books just on the concepts of some of this stuff. So the real trick of this whole thing called life is how do you embody and actually like, inhabit these concepts that we all, like we probably know 10 times the amount of information that we actually practice in a healthy, skillful way. So sometimes I say I don't need to read any more books ever, I just need to literally just increase the percent of the sort of manifestation of what I already know, right? So that was a little bit of preamble to say. Actually, I'm kind of having an answer to one of my own questions, as you asked me this question, which is I should back up my own psychological stuff.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm a recovering people. Pleaser, right, I've struggled with creating. Pleaser, right, I have, I've struggled with creating boundaries. I think where I've landed on boundaries is my ideal, my aim, my aspiration is that how do I still really connect to the person you know like, even if it's eye contact, if it's proximity, if it's certain words, so that I convey that I see you, I appreciate you, I hear you, and then to be able to say I'm not able to do this, but I might be able to do this right and instead what I've historically in my life, I've been like yes, yes, yes, yes. Then like no, no, effing way right so.
Speaker 1:I tend to be too far one angle, then I'll swing to the other side. And so, for me, obviously, we talk you know it's cliche to talk about balance and all this stuff, but I'm really trying to find that calibrated sweet spot between those places about boundaries, and so where that shows up in leadership for me is that I'm I, I. If I'm not very mindful, skillful, intentional about tracking the co-created space, then I will sometimes default into people pleasing, which then to me means tracking the other person's need, making sure they're okay, doing well, regulated, you know, happy, et cetera. And then that will sometimes have a direct conflict internally with me about leadership and a direction I want to go, which, just intrinsically, they may be resistant to, they may not be comfortable with yet, and so, for me, the hardest part of leadership so far has been how, how am I sensitive enough to notice? Oh, intuitively, and maybe quantitatively based on data or other factors, I feel strongly about going in this direction.
Speaker 1:However, it's going to rub some people, even if it's temporarily, for a few days, and that is counter to my deep inner survival patterns. And so then, how not to have to swing back to a coping mechanism that is a little more terse and snarky and judgmental to go there and so I don't know. It's more of thoughts of how it affected me, which is maybe not what you're asking. But I do one of the thought I had which is sort of adjacent but it talks about when I come visit you. We do haircuts, we have talks, we talk about we go. I think I described it as three layers, but ultimately, in direct experience, I don't think those layers are separate, right.
Speaker 1:So, even if I'm only speaking to the transactional with you. The third layer of this spiritual thirst is also present and the even if we don't overtly use the words and acknowledge it consciously these coping mechanisms, like I just described, my people pleasing tendency, right, um, am I loud enough?
Speaker 2:oh, you're good.
Speaker 1:you know, I think those, those are at play, whether or not I'm aware of it, whether or not I tell you, whether or not I'm aware of it, whether or not I tell you, whether or not I'm addressing it and trying to work on it. So I guess, when I'm backing up, I feel like what makes life? I joke with my kids who, you know, they grew up playing some video games and so you know, I was never good at it, but maybe this is actually a funny part of it.
Speaker 1:So you know, they did the first person shooter games, which is the whole thing about up, you know, screen time and all that's the parenting stuff. But they'd occasionally oh come on, dad play, so I get on there. I'm the guy that was like running up the wall, couldn't move and then was killed like within five seconds, right so I, I joke because I'm like man, this game's too hard, you know, like like they put it on expert right. And so sometimes we joke in my family or my kids about man, this thing called life is they put it on expert.
Speaker 2:It's a little too hard.
Speaker 1:Are you kidding? We have to deal with all of this at the same time in the same moment.
Speaker 1:Um, and. And so I tell you all that because I do feel like, whether I'm getting haircut with you, whether I'm trying to make a decision at work, whether I'm like it's funny, you're, you're, you hit a soft spot with my, my wife, my own wife today, um, I, I feel like all of these things are always at play, and so then the question becomes what is again? This is why I use this as a rubric what's the most healing version of the words and actions on any of those layers that that would be helpful right now for the people involved and sometimes they're directly. Who's in the room and sometimes there's there.
Speaker 2:We're thinking about the ripple effect people, um yeah, let me, let me interject here because, because, because I I think that we're really getting somewhere and somewhere which is a touch point in my life right now, because we've used the word boundaries, you're, I think, explaining what your boundary is. You know what, what is most healing, most effective. You know, for this particular situation, that you know, in this coexistence, uh, one of the things that has really been highlighted in the last two years for me, you know, post aa, is a really weird and gross realization that boundaries are not for others, they're for me.
Speaker 2:You know that the boundaries that I'm placing have nothing to do with anybody else, like it has to do with the boundary I need to place on my heart to guard my heart, not against other people, but where I will go with other people. And that's been a fascinating thing, you know, because you know me well enough to know that the field that people get to play in is huge, with me Like I you know, whatever my intellect is, I can have conversations about most things. I'm pretty well rehearsed in a lot of topics.
Speaker 2:I read a lot. I'm curious, you know. I think that's what people would. What people would say is smart about me is more curiosity than it is anything. And just reading about my curiosities and my curiosity, curiosities are vast, you know. So so I have a lot of content, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm a fairly good generalist you know about about many things in life that that that are true to our lives together. That's what made me a good personal pastor. It made, I guess, whatever pastoring I did from the pulpit amenable and interesting. But all that being said, for me to go, wow, it's me that needs boundaries, not others, was like an aha moment, mind blown and in the construct of how AA worked, as I was both participating and observing that, hearing from a friend of mine that might be sitting across don't talk, just listen, because I might blow up the room.
Speaker 2:That's true, you know cause cause my, my tool chest just wasn't organized. I think that's what you said. And if I find my glasses run, you know cause? You'll see yourself and yourself.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is a projection too, and and you know this would be a whole nother conversation but I also you project onto you that. You know, I think one of your maybe it's a survival pattern, but one of your habits for sure is like oh, that's what if I just remove this? And we're all like, so I think you also just have like, you're the kid, like, so what happens if it falls apart?
Speaker 2:you know like and so yeah, well, but that actually does come from a philosophy, right? Oh, it's, it's working. It's time to break it, because it's not going to work in a year.
Speaker 1:You know I guess I would give it even. You know they talk about. When you parent one reframe for child rearing is saying, oh, to ask yourself what was the good idea. So your kid does something you didn't like it, or ruin something, but rather than go right to like, ah damn it, that was wrong, you know bad, we didn't like it because it broke this thing or something it's. You know. One reframe internally is well, what was the good idea?
Speaker 1:right and so to me. I project onto you that, like there's a look, I'm a, you said curiosity and I'm saying kid because we came from very young. But I'm a kid and I just want to know if this stuff really works. And so I'm going to poke at it until I'm convinced, and so I think you developed a skill that was like you say it works. But I'm not going to take your word for it and believe the surface. I need to dismantle it and see if it gets back together and actually still works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's funny because there's a pathology, but some people don't like that. Okay, so we're in middle michael's counseling so we'll go.
Speaker 2:We'll go, not your counseling, my counseling I know it gets confusing with this podcast, but anyways, uh, because, again, doing all the shadow work, um, right, you know, uh, I recently heard someone talking about it. You know what? What you can't express in your house, you suppress. And so, because I've been working on this deep and resonant gang issue that I've been involved in called Santa Cruz, you know, and just the temperature that lives here and the kind of pain that it caused me, the things that happened to me to be able to belong to places Again, whether it was out in the water or whether it was at church, on a field, you name it, and the friendships, all my friends trying to screw my girlfriends growing up, just all the stuff that happens and I know it kind of happens everywhere, it happens in a very dense form here in Santa Cruz.
Speaker 2:And realizing in my own pathology, doing my fourth step work, the person that I had to decide to become, you know the kind kid that was really curious. You know my parents doing the best job to structure that curiosity, but also the fears that they put on you. You know, when I got old enough and big enough, it was, in essence, okay, fuck you, if you can't fight me, I'm going to stay curious in essence. Okay, fuck you, if you can't fight me, I'm gonna stay curious. You know, and and it honestly it served me quite well till it didn't. But you know, when I'm hearing you talking about these things, this is the thing I'm going to doing my shadow work.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, you know, what I could not express, I suppressed. I expressed it harder when I felt the strength to make that expression to become something, undoing that expression a little bit, but really dealing with the reality that, as a young person becoming a young man, heading into adulthood, this is our religious experience. It is important to have these disciplines, that we just do them, no matter what. That is the religious component that we do need religion in our life in some way. You can call it whatever the hell you want, it is a religious experience, whether it's atheism, humanism, you go down the list of it. A person has to develop disciplines, to have structure, to let the faith live in between right, you know, because we have to operate in society in some way and although I do think there's a big difference between like, like I'm a huge like I.
Speaker 1:I almost can't conceive of this thing called life without a spiritual component. Yeah, yeah, but I do feel like I, I get. I get personally hung up on religion sometimes.
Speaker 2:And that's not to say as I am too.
Speaker 1:You've watched me for 25 years Because I just think there's a difference, and I think I had this flash on politics the other day and I won't go down that rabbit hole here, but just that in general, not talking about sides of politics. In general. It listen, I, I want you to give, I want to give you the freedom for this, because yeah I talk about politics a lot as kind of a dynamic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is, expressing where we are culturally. I mean, maybe I'll say this clean, because I've been talking about it more yeah is that it doesn't matter what party so. So I'm going to talk about my party, the democratic party, the reality that they just did the most undemocratic thing in not having an open primary, at least for a week you know, to allow RFK to at least have a voice instead of blocking him out of the conversation when he has a broader democratic platform.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not sure if he's going to betray the whole thing. You know, with the dog whistling that I'm hearing that he might align with trump, but watching the structural conservatism yeah, no, democrats definitely didn't want to have an open program. They wanted to have a celebration, the ugly, the ugly and and of course, I've been watching this whole convention, which I never do and only watched one before that and that was Obama and like, oh, there's a lot of joy in the room. I'm actually feeling peace.
Speaker 1:But, again.
Speaker 2:they're within these religious constructs of oh hey, we're going to do this now, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, this goes to my point.
Speaker 2:It's like wait, you know like you didn't talk about anything structural.
Speaker 1:You know, I feel better, you know, because you guys look nicer. Well, that was the I watched and this is giving away my politics too, but you know, I watched the DNC on a PBS feed right, and so they have commentators right following it, and one of them is David Brooks, who is a Republican but he's the ancient version of Republicans and not the new Maga.
Speaker 1:And he had the same comment, which was that hey wait, this was a lot of celebration of values. But what's the? And only maybe Tim Walz last night, in the last speech was starting to get into some actual nitty gritty, However, but you brought up the point and I wasn't even trying to make a right versus left point.
Speaker 2:It was more about oh, it's just about structure.
Speaker 1:Well, but when I was thinking of spirituality and religion, I think the part that religion feeds, because spirituality could be a very nature-centric, individual, interior, intra-psychic they call it process. However, I do really believe that we are social creatures, that we thrive in relationship, we grow in relationship, we heal in relationship, we are hurt in relationship, and so, to me, what I think a key component, I would say, of spirituality but this is where religion lives more is this community, and so I think that people are drawn to religion for this and in Buddhism they call it sangha right.
Speaker 2:It's one of the three jewels in Buddhism.
Speaker 1:So I just feel like we and this, okay, this is why I was thinking of politics, because I think there's something inherent in us as social beings to be part of a group, to be part of, and, ideally, in spirituality, religion, it's part of a group traveling towards the highest aims that we have as living beings right and um. I think sometimes this is way over simplification.
Speaker 1:I know there's a million reasons and variables but um you know, I think that in its worst instance it becomes tribalism yeah and I feel like that's part of what's happened in politics is that there is something innate in us that wants to belong and be part of a group and feel secure, and I think that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that and creating space for that, and I think it's even a necessity it's.
Speaker 1:If you don't do it like its own, the shadow of that need becomes tribalism and becomes othering. It becomes me versus you, to the point of like, oh, you don't agree with me, I might need to kill you to get rid of the external variable in the world that is causing me discomfort internally, which is the, to me, the very epitome of the opposite, of consciousness, of awareness, of compassion, right, and so tying this all back together to boundaries, I've, uh, my, when it works well and I feel like, oh, this is, this is the right recipe, it's when I can actually sit with others, view others, see others, you know, receive others. As you said, I think we started in a way that um, like, in some ways, when you really see another person, that is that connection of belonging, that is that intimacy, that is that relationship, and it doesn't mean that I have to now do something that puts me out of balance that puts me down a path of depletion or or disrespect internally for myself.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, no, you, you've explained it well okay and and and I'm not wanting to segue too hard, but but you can take those out, you don't?
Speaker 2:have to worry about it um for me it was two months ago. You know where you're in the shop and and and this, there's this thing you've been fidgeting with and it lives, lives in your boundary issue. I believe you're not your issue, but, but at your boundary point. But but the three C's when you encounter a moment, you know where this is maybe not the way it should be. I've been contemplating this thing. I've actually been utilizing this tool and it's actually a very good tool and I want you to share it.
Speaker 2:You can extrapolate further in another podcast, but I really do want to introduce my audience to this tool because it was very well received on my part. It's worked very well. But if I'm remembering remembering actually accurately the thing comes up. You know the feeling of negativity, conflict, you know whatever it is, but the first thing is is compassion. You know compassion on yourself, on others. Uh, second thing is curiosity. You know where, where. You know what are the elements, how did this come to be? And then I love this one conflict alchemy. There was like holy shit, that's it. And it has been my approach the last two months to feelings and I know I shared with you.
Speaker 2:There's been some incidents with people that are close to me where I've had to get up and leave from dinner. You know that I have bought for others and my wife has watched me walk out the door cause I'm now in a spot, cause the four-year-old child showed up who just wants to be seen, and maybe this family member is not seeing me still and maybe we'll never see me and realizing it's me that it's not them. They've always been this way. Why am I having a problem with it now? Where is the alchemy, you know what, what, what you know cause the compassion, left the room because I, you know, I'm ready to snap and uh, it, it.
Speaker 2:It has been a really, really good tool to sit with. And you know again, you know it's, it's. You know we're heading towards the end of of of this. You know this form of conversation and it's something we can really get deeply into. But I would love to hear early, like what are the early thoughts about how you came to this. You know how you've utilized it thus far and you can take your time. I mean, I, I'm, I'm not in in any real timeframe. You're, you're, you're running towards where, where, where, you're running out of time. So so just go as long as you want and let's, let's see how this goes.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I mean honestly the three C's. I I call it. I don't make up anything. I think I just read and gather and reconstitute and try to make my own, which is what we do I think all of us as humans do. Ironically, I had this revelation a long time ago. If someone else could do it for you, we'd all be done, right. But but whoever set this up and I say whoever with a wink, right, you know, it's that we have to rediscover fire for ourselves. Right, and that's kind of the game I love, that Right and cause it's been discovered.
Speaker 1:So if you did it and you know, if someone did it a thousand years ago, then we'd be done, if they, if that counted for you. But the way the parameters were set up is no, no, you, you have to discover. You can have hints, you can read about it, you can look at the pointers, but you still have to experience it directly, that discovery moment. So the three Cs came from me, trying to figure out how do I show up at these intersections at work that are challenging. And you know, I think back to when I was 16 in Huntington Beach. Right, I went to, actually it was the Church of Religious Science, and who spoke Ram Dass, and you know he talked about grist for the mill. Everything was grist for the mill, and so it stuck with me all those years ago. And so this conflict, alchemy, which is the third piece, is really that, and so Well, let's start with compassion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like what that means to you, because, sure, I think this is critical, because one of the things I learned in aa and it was beautiful, it something that sat with me. Anyways, you know, I realized that you know with the people that love me mostly it's not that I mean, an apology is kind and a correct way to handle things, but generally speaking an apology doesn't fix anything Right, unless it's in the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, myself, and live in the forgiveness that I do believe comes from God. In that way, to operate new without the burden of the shame is one of the first things that they you can hear it in their language, and they're very good at it because it's saturated through all 12 steps that there's a compassion that we don't want to feel for ourselves about ourselves.
Speaker 2:And so compassion is a very new word to utilize as it pertains to the space. Am I having compassion on myself so that I can have compassion for others? I've talked about repentance in previous podcasts. It's the key component to repentance.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, let me say this and I'll bring in then. It was funny, we were talking off, it's not camera, right Off audio yeah yeah, about.
Speaker 1:You know, I came in a little activated myself, as they say in the psychotherapeutic world, because I had I don't actually argue with my wife very often, like maybe once a year, but we had one and what it was, what it was, is, it was a very old thing. So and this is hopefully she's finding if I give away some of this, but you know she and this is becomes important but and then this answers your compassion question, which will be three C's which all tied all together but so when she was young, she had a lot of ear infections and had tubes in her ears and so she doesn't hear very well, right? Or she has always struggled with hearing. And so sometimes and I tend to I have a pattern where I'll tend to like you know, I'm always thinking about stuff, I'm always so sometimes I'll comment on things that are in our space, or the news, or the phone or whatever, and but she'll be like wait what, what? And and and and then, especially, it becomes worse when and this is what happened last night was she was facing away from me with the water on doing some dishes and I did a comment and then it was like wait what?
Speaker 1:And then so it ended up being having to clarify two or three or four times what I was trying to say, which was supposed to just be, in all honesty, a bit of an unconscious, snarky remark about something that wasn't very important. It wasn't even about her, it was about something on the news, right, but I had some energy of irritation about, like, actually it wasn't something that was important enough to write a paragraph and tell you. It was more of just a passing little venting comment, it wasn't even about you, it was just about what we were experiencing. And then so she got. The heart of the matter was that, in essence, I wasn't loving her in a way that understood her hearing and that was respectful and kind to her, and so I was like my irritability. It wasn't that she couldn't hear, wasn't the issue. It was that it was my reaction to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah wasn't the issue.
Speaker 1:It was that, it was my reaction to that Right and and ultimately the reaction to that was some sorrow and some pain about I don't feel loved or seen or accepted by you, and so I did apologize and I and I, but basically it was something pretty lame, but it was something like I'm sorry, but I don't, I don't know what else to say right now, and so you're giving me fuel for what that I want to go back, and so I sort of did a book for what that I want to go back, and so I sort of did a book a book I'm shrinking in my chair right now because this is something my wife has been also working.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like tone, tone of voice, all that, all that kind of like right, okay, and so, so and again.
Speaker 1:Not to go down my own psychotherapeutic process here, but I just want to give you that background because the reason I got stuck last night and it's become I just I couldn't cultivate in the real time in the moment. It was late, we were tired, it was basically bedtime the compassion that I so when I cultivate compassion this might be a little scattered, but another revelation I had, maybe recently but also intermittently, is that back to the people, there's some time, all the back to the people pleasing pattern often that has involved trying to manipulate the variables in the external world so that I either get a gold star or I avoid something that is hard, right, so it's conflict avoidance or, uh, the praise, right, and so then there's a lot of energy that that gets used to try to manipulate the external variables so that those two things happen. What I've been working on a lot like a central theme is how do I cultivate the same feeling? This is kind of interesting because it's a both and about relationships and internal work but how do I cultivate the if I'm? So what I have to do is the stepwise thing. So if I wanted something from Michael Howard that was a praise or approval, or looking at me with a belonging or an energetic signature that says you're good, I appreciate you, or whatever it is. I actually have the ability to do that for myself, and so it's just not practiced.
Speaker 1:That muscle is not very strong and what I've been doing then is trying to notice okay, I almost like tune into what I want from you and then pull back because now I have the flavor of it right by by just literally doing a thought experiment of getting it from you. And then I try okay, michael, can you talk to you and that's confusing to michael's again, michael painter, can you talk to yourself that way now that as if you got that from this and that you're giving it to yourself? And the reason I'm telling you all this is because I think the heart of this work ultimately starts with the seed that you're talking about of compassion. But compassion doesn't it's you, I feel like it's it's. Oh, it's sometimes easier to start outside because, oh, look at this puppy or this child or this, something right.
Speaker 1:But ultimately the real work feels like where, where it gets really like leveled up is can I do this for myself? Can I truly care for myself, love myself, be kind to myself even. Welcome the the inner critic. The shame. Come on in, I got room for you. Look, it's like I have my own internal. What is this called?
Speaker 2:This place called again.
Speaker 1:The point shack.
Speaker 1:I have my own version of this.
Speaker 1:That's like, yeah, we got food, sit down, we got entertainment, you can rest, I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 1:So I do this whole process. And the reason this is important is because, if I can just even touch that place now, when I engage the other person with curiosity, now maybe the words were the exact same I could have used without doing that process, but now the way I'm leaning, in the tone of my voice, the look in my eyes, the crook in my neck, the proximity of my body, the unspoken, subtle energetic energy I'm passing to you, all of that now is shifted into like almost. Remember I said earlier when the ripple effect I can't wait to talk to my staff member about repairing something it shifts into this like thirst for like closeness and and and restoration and healing, and then I feel like it's almost easy by the time you get to conflict alchemy. Then it's like right, I'm now. I'm grateful that we just had this rift, because this is now an opportunity for us to grow as individuals and in our relationship, and, and so to me that's why they're in that order.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so, so that's good. So, so we heard a sequence from you, but, but, but I, I want to hear you correctly about compassion, because, because you just said something that's intuitive to you, okay, and, and I want I want to not put different words to it, but but like, sit in it just for a second and contemplate what it, what it is that you said, because I love what you said you stop and in your heart and in your mind you go. What was it that I was looking to receive from that person? And, in essence, is it inside of me already. Already, you know, so that you're not trying to extract from someone else something that you've grown into, that you feel God or you know the bigger thing has given you. You already have this tool, because this is the relevant part. You know, it's like we're looking in the wrong spice drawer.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think so. Wrong spice drawer? Yes, I think so, it's, and it's the joke of like, oh, the, the thing you've been searching for all your life is the thing that was causing you to search, or something.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to explain it again, because I want to oppose something which is this kind of self-affirmation world and self-help world where it's like you're a stud. You got this fucking take the day bullshit. You know it's. It's fun to watch it on a meme on instagram, but it's like it. It's like self self-soothing, jerking off. You know it's not intimate, you know it's not considering others, and and what I'm hearing for you is that deep consideration of others is what lives in that compassion.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm trying to take something from you that I already had, you know, and then well, ironically, I'm giving it to you if I do this process versus trying to get it from. This is the, this is the like, like this again.
Speaker 2:I'm having an aha moment here, so so I want to sit with it because it's all about me on this podcast but but no it it's good because, because the flavor of this is very different than the soda pop that instagram is trying to sell me, you know it's just this reality that that, if I'm taking this approach, I now get to clearly communicate something I may not have with my spouse and what I might need from them, and there's an intimacy that's added because your spouse is no longer confused by your behavior.
Speaker 2:It's like I feel real deficit here. Yes, if you don't have that thing, oh for sure, right.
Speaker 1:I think most of us are driven daily by those deficits, that then again, this is the beauty, Like they always joke, that you know mindfulness or consciousness.
Speaker 1:if it's only that, it's the booby prize, right Meaning like you can't get anywhere without sort of self-reflection and self-realization, but also if it just stops at an understanding of that and you don't start to actualize or move through the challenging interpersonal, intrapersonal sort of like what they call them in spiritual works uncooked seeds, right. And also I think the beauty of looking at those compassionately, squarely, without averting your eyes, is it instantly builds humility.
Speaker 2:You're just like oh my gosh that's what they say there before.
Speaker 1:The grace of God, right? You're like oh wow, it's almost miraculous that I'm able to show up here and have this stuff and even talk to you yeah so there's this humility that just gets where. That's. To me, what's missing from the instagram version is it's all it's about, it's about, and this is where, again, it I just. The more I know, the more it's a both and not either yeah, but but but instagram is to me a level two.
Speaker 1:It's the psychological hacks, it's the um, it's a little bit of. It's not just pure transactional, because you're trying to work on some things, but it's missing that third layer, which I got lost again for a second. But but here's, here's what came up on my mind. I one time asked um, because a lot of this can sound like I'm doing my own internal work and maybe I'm separate, and and in buddhism they talk about, everything is projectional to me, which is a whole other conversation. But I asked at one point one of the teachers well, wait a minute, then I feel really alone, but I want to be connected. And they go oh well, you're assuming when we say, or you're assuming that you're not already infinitely, a priori interconnected to everything. So again, it's like that nothingness. I think the words that are translated are not quite accurate. Yeah, and that third layer reveals how I am interdependent with you and with the ocean and with you. Know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:And so to me that takes it away. When you keep the third layer and you have that realization, then it's not just about what we do for our kids, which is how do I strengthen your ego so you can get through the world in a objectively, you know, transactional, successful way? And there is a moment developmentally to do that for kids, right. But then now as adults, the trick is how do we not live only from that space, use it as one of many tools in a toolbox, but mostly orient towards a deeper aim?
Speaker 2:I guess yeah, I mean it's interesting because it makes it far more interactive and not you feeling isolated, alone with your thoughts. Right, you know, and that's the beauty of it feeling isolated along with your thoughts, you know, and that's the beauty of it, you know. So, curiosity, you know a brief, you know one minute, some, you know, and again, clearly we're going to have to have another conversation about this and actually go and go in depth. You know, curiosity is one of these, one of these things that you either naturally curious or you're not. You know, and then so you have to learn to adapt to learning to be curious and not just adhere to the structures that you decide to see. You know, keeping my myopic view of something, just looking at it closely, the way that you see it. So, um, can can you, you know, express a little bit in a couple of minutes what curiosity might look like?
Speaker 1:I mean mean, somehow, what's coming to my mind is um, it's funny, this is back to like that, uh, like you don't go anywhere without self-reflection, so like, if you, if you can't be curious about curiosity, then it's hard to even like explore, so it's a weird thing. But, um, one more thing I'll say maybe is, uh, again back to this guy, henry shuckman, who a recent find of mine, but he he talks about, he has the original love book, but he talks about, in any situation, any phenomena, any intersection, can you, can you inhabit the experience of allowing it or welcoming it, or loving it? And what he's ultimately saying is if you can do any of these three, then you're not in resistance to life, right, and I, and in just being so, this is where I've been using lately as my curiosity platform. If I come across something, I sometimes will say, like I use the analogy of oh, I fell down and skinned my knee and I realized, oh, yes, there's pain there. Then what if I start adding stuff that is about oh, this shouldn't have happened now. I can't play basketball tomorrow. Oh, wait now if my team's gonna think I'm not a good person because I didn't show up for them. All that's added to the moment. Right and it it's.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to say two different things. One thing is that I think the curiosity for me gives me space to not add on extra mental constructs about future or past, which usually is the source of most, at least cognitive suffering, right? Which, as a side note, although I was trained in psychotherapy, part of what I sort of was oriented towards was somatic or body-based psychotherapy, because I do think our bodies hold a wisdom that is different, that especially smart people, especially curious people, especially verbal people, you can talk for 10 years Like you can throw a thousand pages right and in reality, if all it is is you are, there's an infinite amount of that information, so you can do that forever yeah, so the question then becomes how do you directly experience a different quality of being?
Speaker 1:and sometimes for me, at least, I think for others using the mindfulness sort of somatic based tools are easier. They're quicker, more direct, less slippery slope way to get there and that's, like you know, the most classic one Buddhism is used forever.
Speaker 2:It's like just track your breaths coming in and going out right, or you're doing progressive muscle relaxation, whatever.
Speaker 1:They're all just really tricks to get you to just oh, this is a revelation for me. You can't track your body like in a direct moment-to-moment experience and wonder what's happening and worry about the future at the same time right, it's really.
Speaker 2:It's super interesting, yeah, super interesting. My mind is going a million different directions, and which is sometimes why surfing or snowboarding or motorcycle, like things I've done where you, you must pay attention to jujitsu, yeah, jujitsu, while you're trying not to die, or aikido, I love it so much exactly it.
Speaker 1:That's another version of that for me, because you have to be in your body and and you're not worrying about, oh, what I said to my wife the other day you know, am I gonna die here?
Speaker 1:exactly, yeah. So so to me, um, the, the curiosity, I think if you have this I I say this, it's not my sound weird If you can, if you can inhabit and I use that word a lot but the experience of curiosity and compassion, then it's almost like doesn't matter what year it is, what day it is, what lifetime it is. Are you totally strung out? Are you not like? Like the quality of the energy works everywhere, all the time, in any situation?
Speaker 2:Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, totally it makes sense to me, and so that's why I'm like, oh okay, that then is sort of that acid test of this is perennial wisdom, right yeah.
Speaker 2:And again, you are speaking to me personally at this point. Yeah yeah, with all my words, all the words I've had to have for other people, all that kind of thing. It doesn't answer that curiosity in my heart. Right, you know it's, it's again. Feel a bunch of conviction. Yeah, of course you wrote a thousand pages, michael, of course you did that. That's something you would do. Of course you invented a different writing style, of course, cause that that's you know, but you, but I, wasn't tapped into my curiosity truly, cause I was you know, living in and again this kind of more myopic, like how I saw it, not how it is.
Speaker 1:And I just want to say this is where that Richard Rohr thing, where we started and everything, belongs. I don't know, but I just caught something about when you said that, like it's all okay.
Speaker 2:Like that was not an error, that was perfect.
Speaker 1:And so my curiosity would invite like oh, I heard just. I just heard just a hair of judgment in there, and you know what. Have them come in too. We have another seat at the table, do you need? Do you need something to drink? Yeah, um you know, judgment I'm so glad you're here, because we all belong. Do you know what I mean? Right the shadow is just sitting right there, so I just, you're the big judger of yourself too also.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Okay, I don't mean to push you, but you really are running short on time. So conflict alchemy, in a nutshell, is taking this compassion and curiosity and then you know.
Speaker 1:I mean. To me it's just another version of. I liked the phrase I think I made it up, actually but not the concept. The concept is really about that grist for the mill that I said Ram Dass said so many years ago. It's also. I've done a fair amount of work on restorative practices, restorative circles and the well. Here's one interesting point of that, which is that one revelation on restorative practices for me was there's lots of talk about it in schools. Alternatives to suspensions how do we deal with something? No, you're good, keep talking.
Speaker 2:I'm fidgeting and making Michael nervous because I'm texting my next podcast person.
Speaker 1:No, you're good. Anyway, long story short, the revelation for me was people want to use restorative practices to fix like a conflict, sometimes that just occurred. But restorative practices, the inherent in the definition of restoration is you're returning to a state that you wanted prior and a lot of times schools don't do the setup to say this kid is part of a culture, part of a team, they feel connected to an adult, they feel like they belong, so it doesn't work right. You can do like a hey, go paint this thing because you did graffiti, and that's to me like a more transactional level of it. But if you really want to restore a relationship, then it's about addressing. Well, first it's about creating that connection and relationship. Then it's like hey, there was a rupture, I didn't like it, I don't think it felt good to you either. How do we move towards that?
Speaker 1:And so one phrase that helps me do this, mostly as a leader at this point with other staff, is and I feel tired some days and I don't want to do it some days. Sometimes I joke okay, I've grown enough for today, I'm done Like I don't want to do conflict outcome anymore because it's tiring. None of us will wake up and choose it. But we all have opportunities because it just happens naturally in life, and so to me it's a phrase that reminds me of the opportunity, and I would say 99% of the time. Every time I've been able to do that progression, compassion, curiosity, and then move into the conflict resolution or conflict alchemy. The alchemy part is it has transformed from a place that was hard, that I was shutting down, on, that I was resisting, into a place that fueled growth and intimacy and healing for both parties. And to me, that is literally what we're trying to do as human beings being alive.
Speaker 2:Well, michael, I have absolutely loved this conversation. Well, michael, I have absolutely loved this conversation. I'm sure our audience, more than you would know, is going to want to hear more from you about all this, because you know, again, the people that are in our hearts and our minds, that we don't know what to do with the content that we have. And you know I got some work to do. I mean, I'm talking with a buddy and here I go. I see a year of work, you know, laying out ahead of me and, anyways, I just want to thank you for taking the time to do this. I'm hoping that you come back sooner than later, but, more than you can imagine, I've really appreciated you and, anyways, people, these, I'm emotional again.
Speaker 2:This is the beauty that lives in this town. These are the friends I've had the privilege of having for my whole life, and so I'm just grateful for you. I'm just so glad we got to do this together.
Speaker 1:I know you've been nervous sitting on it for a year. How about later?
Speaker 2:But I just love that we get to sit and celebrate what we've had, what we get to move towards. Anyways, people, I hope you enjoyed this Good conversation for me that we get to sit and celebrate what we've had, what we get to move towards, and, anyways, people, I hope you enjoyed this good conversation for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, got a bunch of work. Yeah, it's always a two way street.
Speaker 2:I always believe that too. Anyways, love you guys. Thanks for listening. I hope you all have a good day, all right.