Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Mike Howard talking ....
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Episode 46: Nick Mari, From Wyoming to Santa Cruz, With a Few Stops In Between: A Journey of Recovery, Introspection, and Empathy
What happens when a small-town Wyoming upbringing meets the vibrant chaos of Utah's EDM scene? Join me and my guest, Nick Mari, as we explore this intriguing intersection and uncover a journey marked by trials and triumphs. From adapting to contrasting environments like Oklahoma and encountering the unexpected world of underground raves, to confronting the grip of addiction and finding solace in the discipline of jujitsu, Nick's story is a testament to resilience and the human spirit. Through genuine conversation, we unlock the power of connection and community, whether on the jujitsu mats or in the supportive embrace of a gym camaraderie.
Have you ever wondered how the territorial behavior of Santa Cruz surfers compares to Wyoming's laid-back snowboarding culture? Our discussion draws amusing parallels and highlights the challenging transitions between these contrasting worlds. As Nick recounts his experiences within a small town that juggles beauty and danger with a strange sense of safety, we also delve into the nuances of family dynamics and personal self-worth. This episode offers a heartfelt exploration of father-son relationships, the quest for acceptance, and the enduring impact of past struggles on present growth.
Nick's journey is one of profound transformation, navigating the precarious path from addiction to sobriety and spiritual enlightenment. We touch on the healing potential of alternative medicines like iboga, offering hope to those battling mental health and addiction issues. Our conversation is enriched with insights into the power of the jujitsu itsaelf, and the community that comes, in fostering self-discovery and resilience. Through shared stories and experiences, we celebrate the strength found in vulnerability and the courage to embrace life's challenges with compassion and understanding.
Welcome to the Unpacked and Naked podcast. I am your host, Michael Howard. This podcast is brought to you by Santa Cruz Vibes Magazine and also Pointside Beach Shack. Today I have the privilege of sitting here with Nick Mari hey, Nick Mari hey. Thanks for coming, brother.
Speaker 2:Thanks, michael. I appreciate you, man, it's very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exciting, yeah, a little weird, huh.
Speaker 2:Thanks, michael. I appreciate you, man. It's very cool, yeah, exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a little weird.
Speaker 2:Huh. No, not too bad, Not too weird. No, no, I enjoy it. I enjoy it. Yeah, I'm into it. I like the whole. I like that whole thing, the human podcast, like kind of figuring out who people are. It's cool man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, it's been a cool endeavor for me, you know, because you know you haven't listened to my previous podcast. But at the well, it was this podcast. Well, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:In its first form Right right the original. I was still trying to fix something and the process of doing this, when I was talking with my producer, I realized that what it really is is a conversation that we used to have over coffee to get to know somebody, and that, the real walk away what I noticed with everybody who left. Of course they felt weird because they weren't sure what they said. You lose yourself about 15 minutes into it. You're like, oh shit, oh crap.
Speaker 2:I'm sure I said something.
Speaker 1:It's gone, but how healing of a process it was to actually just sit in front of another human and tell them about yourself and how much that was lost, and for me at least. I realized that I'm kind of back to an old hat. I haven't been a pastor for a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I have my friends, but all of a sudden I was able to get to know people again and I'm incredibly fascinated by them Right, and just to be able to have an hour or so listening to somebody was a pleasure for me and it was good for their hearts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of. It's like you were saying it'd be almost full circle, but it's like this you're back into a like you're willing, you're here to listen to somebody else's spirit speak. Yeah, right, and whether it's, and and whether it's, you know whether it's whatever conversation it is. I'm sure it's the idea. Like you just said, somebody is allowing you, you're allowing yourself, to listen and the other person is allowing themselves to talk, which they may could be the first time that somebody sat down and said hey man, who are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, who are you? Yeah, yeah, and what are you about it? It's, you know you're a bit younger than me, but we'll get to that in a second. It's been really strange to watch, you know, my generation disconnect a little bit from these things. You know I have a lot of close friends but, yeah, you know how much all of us have like stopped asking how people are really doing and like taking the time right just how you doing, no, no, really how you doing right and it is so very true, yeah yeah, just sitting with somebody and you know we get this a little bit at the gym.
Speaker 1:You know that, that camaraderie, if you will, the camaraderie, and every once in a while someone will open up about something that's going on, and right, you just sit and listen and, yeah, you know, and you're thinking about them having, you know, giving good thoughts to them. You know that, but that's a pretty intimate setting. You know that takes years to establish that right, right so yeah, yeah, we got a lot of stuff that runs through the gym too yeah, we do, and most of us there got got issues.
Speaker 2:Okay, nick, nick, maria, why?
Speaker 1:don't you tell us about yourself and your issues?
Speaker 2:Yes, let me start from the beginning, when I was six.
Speaker 1:Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and maybe how we're connected and all that?
Speaker 2:Yeah sure, my name is Nick Murray. I'm originally from Wyoming. I was born and raised till I was 19. Uh, I moved away at 19 to oklahoma, believe it or not, lived in evanston, wyoming. It's a town of like 10 000 people, 10 to 12 yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:And then I moved to weatherford, oklahoma, which and in hindsight it was just, you know, the reality was is like was my friends were leaving and I truly was like I can't stay in this town, there's nothing for me. You know, I it was either. I had been in trouble when I was younger, like 16 years old.
Speaker 1:I got in trouble for smoking weed and like doing drugs and I got on probation.
Speaker 2:And then, like, I was on probation until I was 18. And then I got off probation my senior year of high school and all my friends were like we're leaving, you know, and so my couple friends are going to college. And then I had one really good friend who was like who had left earlier in the year, came back and was like yo, I'm gonna, I'm leaving to go like hang out my friend Pepper down in Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:I was like hang out, my friend pepper down in oklahoma. I was like, yeah, pepper, pepper hernandez, quite a name. Uh, she was my, my friend rita, who I grew up with. Her, it was her friend. She had met at some hippie festival, right, because my friend rita at graduated at like early at 18, so she was had did like a half a year, her senior year, and then left. And I remember remember her coming back and she's like, yeah, I went and did this and I went and did that, and these are my friends. And she was like I'm getting ready to go to Oklahoma, you know, and I was like I could have like $600. Like what is it going to take for us to get there, you know?
Speaker 1:In.
Speaker 2:Oklahoma yeah, and it's pretty wild to think Oklahoma was a pretty cool spot Like um, people are nice, you know is different All there. And he said the people are just nice. Yeah, it's different, you know. He said that, you know it's it's polite, nice, you know you.
Speaker 2:It's not like you're getting close with them, but right, they realize that you're human and they realize that, like you know, there's this whole thing involved and I think that the niceness comes from the fact that they realize, depending on where you are and where you're living, at a certain point, in some places your neighbor is the one person that you have around, and not in all places in the South and not everywhere like that, but even in Wyoming and where I grew up, like you know, and, and even down, like in oklahoma, you noticed it, but the thing was is like when you're driving down the road and you haven't seen somebody in 30 minutes and then the next person that passes you is, you know, dave, who lives like 10 miles up the road.
Speaker 2:You, you kind of you wave, you know, and it's not. You may you and Dave may not be best friends, but the truth is is like you're okay, you know you, you acknowledge one another and I think the idea is that you're polite, because what if at one point in one, at one moment, you might need help and you're addicted, dave, the whole time?
Speaker 2:And now what you know, know you know, dave doesn't want to help you, you know and so you're there's nobody else coming, and there's nobody else coming.
Speaker 2:You know, 30 minutes later you're still nobody coming. So it's kind of like this same thing in the south. As you get your, as you're down there and you're kind of living in there, you realize like a lot of people have that same like. I lived in a city. It was was like, you know, 50,000 people, was a college town, but it was kind of the same thing.
Speaker 2:Everybody was polite, everybody, you know, like, hey, how you doing? You know, there was no like, no real mean looks. Everybody kind of just like acknowledged you and went on. Nobody wanted to be your best friend, but people were like they acknowledged you, you know, at some sort of like you're a human, I see this human in front of me. We can acknowledge one another and be good. It's not like they weren't burdened by your presence in some way, you know. You mean like it is here, yeah, like they're looking at you, like God damn, my genes hate you, my DNA doesn't like you, you know. So it's so silly it's.
Speaker 2:People were very polite and I think that it just boils down to like the, the understanding of, just an understanding of like. Yeah, we're all people kind of trying to do it. Yeah, you know. And also one thing I did notice down there I'm 18, or I'm 19 actually, when I moved, so you know, full of piss and vinegar trying to do my thing, and people down there were polite, but you know they weren't.
Speaker 2:It wasn't far away from you know, them not being polite, yeah, right, like everybody was cool until somebody was like you know, like they were like, hey, man, we were trying to be cool in this situation, like we'll obviously throw fists, that's what we have to do, you know. And and I think that that's like something that is different, maybe in the south, is that people were willing to back up with what they, yeah, they feel, what they believe, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, like, like I'm not crossing you, you're not crossing me. We can be polite, you, but the second that we cross each other, it might be polite for a second, but as soon as it comes down to it, I'm willing to back myself up in whatever situation. And I think that's why people get polite. They realize like, hey, man, this could go fist to cuffs at any point. Right, let's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's not the same boundary markers and perception about law Sure, yeah. Yeah, there's not the same boundary markers and perception about law Sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:That maybe we have here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we're real padded. I think we're real padded out here in a way, you know like, and whether it's good or bad, I don't really know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean I, you know I've certainly shared a lot in this podcast about how I didn't like growing up in that culture. Santa Cruz, that's what surfing was like. Right, you know, it didn't have pads, no, no matter what age you were.
Speaker 2:Didn't seem like it did out here.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it was a pretty rough town, right. This is like the second or third maciation away and still it's got a chip on its shoulder. Sure, sure you can still feel the edge of like you know this thing. Are you actually deciding to be here, right, you know? Are you deciding to embrace how it is? We think about this place. Right, you know, as I've expressed to with a few people, you know it's once you're in, you're in, you know, but you don't just get in, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I, I fully agree. I mean, I feel that I felt the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've been here, right, yeah, no, I fully agree. I mean, I feel that I felt the same. Yeah, been here for 18 years, so I felt the same. You know, it was like in the beginning, you're just this outsider, yeah, very much so, like people treated as such.
Speaker 2:Until you know, like, I met a few friends and they were just born and raised here, locals, like everybody knew them and I didn't know that you know at the time, and then you kind of your friend, they're like, they, like you, like, oh, you're cool, you know, let's hang out. You're this new person like, let's hang out. Your, your vibe is great, you know. So you start hanging out with these people and then you realize like, oh, like, everybody knows them. You know, like everybody knew my friends. You know, like tyler and his brother and every, you know Brady was another person that I had met really early on, you know, and it's like I didn't realize how connected these people were. And then you start going through life and you know I'm like, oh, my friend Brady, the X, y and Z, they're like, oh, brady Moeller, like, oh, I know that guy.
Speaker 2:You know like oh, he's a good guy. You know, like you said, grandfathered in in some wild way that you're not in in the beginning.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Until you realize, like what you're like, like a contractor accepting in some way, you know, and then you, I signed the contract and we're in, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my kids have come to expressing this thing as, like you know, especially in our house. It's like you know we're like Irish mob. You know, it's like we're really nice but we're just watching everything and it's like the politeness is not necessarily a good thing. It's like no, we're not sure if we have to bury you in the back yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're being kind because we don't want to have to like keeping the house quote unquote open just just to get a good view right yeah, yeah, yeah and you know, I, I, I don't know that my parents were that way, it it is, but like we are that way, I don't know if it's just from having my head on a swivel yeah, yeah, from surfing or whatever it's the where you're always you know, checking the situation, situation every every moment, because you don't know who's paddled out or whatever, but you know, I guess, the point being that that you know there's, there's this real human link of of you know, at least I believe here in santa cruz we have, we have all the big city problems in a small town Sure do so.
Speaker 2:It's like Gangs, drugs, violence, all of it's here.
Speaker 1:All of it, all of it's here, but it's strapped in this beautiful spot. That's a tiny town, it's not as though it's big Right and all the things that come with that, and yet it's really safe, sure. So it's a real paradox to itself. It truly is seems very conflicted, yeah like confused itself. It's confused itself you know, and as my middle one, I was like look, we're all libertarians. We just think we're liberals.
Speaker 1:You, know like just it's cool, just don't touch my shit. You know it's kind of yeah. Yeah, that's exactly how it is it's funny.
Speaker 2:I have a friend, a really good friend, and he'd say some shit like that you know he's like man, I can't, because out in Wyoming, you know you could buy big parcels of land like 700 plus acres, blah, blah, blah. Point is is he's all yeah, like we're getting this parcel or whatever. Him and his dad were buying it, and um, and he was funny, he just kind of mentioned something like that he's like you know, it's like my land, like, uh, like you know it's my land and I want it to be my.
Speaker 1:I'm just like jim. What makes no sense. Well, I mean, if you want to explain a personality arch of santa cruz, like every everybody thinks it's theirs right and it has that mentality of like this is mine right and I? I don't know that it's entitlement, I don't think that's the right word for it, but there's a vibe that sure, sure you know that that, like hey, I came here, I went through the gauntlet.
Speaker 1:Right, this is a part of me, right, you're stepping on me when you step on this Right, right, and you know it has this gangland kind of feel to it.
Speaker 2:It does Very, very, very gangish land. That's why when I first moved here I was really surprised. I was like surfers are a.
Speaker 1:That blew my mind East side west side, south side midtown mountain man up north guys, moss guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Carmel got like it's like. So, funny and you could do, you could visit, but you better mind the game that's going on Sure, sure, sure. And know whatever's going on within the local crew. Right, yeah, it just has a strange territorial Vibe. Vibe to, vibe to it, yeah, it does it's not exactly gone.
Speaker 1:You know it's certainly changed quite a bit, yeah, but like there were just places you just don't show up right and it's not because of any other reason other than, yeah, ain't your spot ain't your spot, dude, yeah, dude, yeah, and that's it, that's.
Speaker 2:It's so crazy, is? I remember moving here and people explaining that to me and I was just like you're surfers, like what didn't? I was like because I grew up snowboarding, right, so I grew up snowboarding in the mountains and where I grew up in Wyoming there was a mountain behind our house so we'd have friends ride us up on snowmobiles and we would just cruise down and like there was this whole like we would go, go to the mountains, pay for a ticket and stuff like that. You know, you get good grades, you get a cheaper ticket, things of that nature. But it was like when we were young, you know, and in my head it was like, dude, I spoke like a surfer from the time.
Speaker 2:I was like could ride a board, you know, it was like like the whole thing was just very, like, very loose. If you will, I was a very loose human and it was all because of snowboarding and it really wasn't. It really that's just kind of. My vibe was like, yeah, dude, everything's all good, hang loose, kind of thing, you know. And then I show up here and and I'm like, yeah, surfing, you know, it's like the same thing. It's like a real loose vibe.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna go surf yeah, no, you're not, no, you're not not even close you know, you're not even, no, you're not gonna do that and so and that was the one thing I I still I've surfed once in my life, you know and fucking almost drowned the whole time. So it was honestly not not a good experience. But I was also terribly out of shape and I was with a friend's dad who was like not the most, uh, no, caring guess if you will.
Speaker 1:He's like you're going to drown boy. Hell, yeah, you can paddle good enough. Yeah, figure it out, figure it out. He goes to catch waves. Yeah, straight up, you know. So I'm out there, like that's called learning to surf in Santa Cruz. Yeah, from your dad. Yeah, here, let me take you out. Boy being a baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not, you know, that's what it was. It was wild because I like, um, I was like, wow, this is like much harder than I thought you know and expected. Right, I've, I've snowboarded, like I said, it's strapped to your feet, so you're kind of just two very different things, unless you're in deep powder yeah the beast is fully different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all front footed until until it's surfing, and that's in deep powder right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was, and yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, though, like you're saying the whole vibe, right, yeah, yeah so you were in wyoming wyoming moved to oklahoma, for, truthfully, I was only in oklahoma for like eight months. I went there, kind of survived a winter of sleet and ice and I came from snow, so it wasn't like that bad, but it definitely was like oh man, this is different, you know, and it's Oklahoma my first, you know. Like after like eight months I was like what did I do?
Speaker 1:to myself.
Speaker 2:I went from Wyoming to Oklahoma, which wasn't like you'd think, like oh, that's not bad. No, it wasn't the move. It wasn't the move. You know, like you go and you kind of have this like, yeah, I'm finally out on my own, I'm doing the adventure, Right. And then you get in the adventure and you're like, oh God. I don't think Oklahoma was the place we should have went.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I imagine coming from, where you're from too, because you know I've been to texas a few times it's just so flat. Yeah, you know, when you're from big country, you know where it's like. It's ominous in a way, yeah, and you grow comfortable with how ominous it is and you realize your size. You know being in a flat space like where trees just block your view, right you know. Then you see nothing. And if you're in the trees, you now see nothing. There's no marker, there's no right Anything, you're just stuck in the trees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's flat in the trees it really throws.
Speaker 1:I mean it the trees yeah, it's flat in the trees it really throws. I mean it throws me off. I'm a little dyslexic and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I've always had trouble with kind of knowing what direction to go and I've always used terrain sure, sure landmarkers, yeah I knew where the terrain was and where it went.
Speaker 2:That's such a big thing, I agree, I've done that too my whole life yeah, so to not have those terrain markers, right?
Speaker 1:you know, just, it's very yeah, it always threw me off Yep.
Speaker 2:Just a groundhog looking for a shadow Like where am I Driving on?
Speaker 1:roads that are just endless and just big culverts. In the middle, right, nothing but pine trees. And you're like, okay, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm Any wrong turn and I'm lost.
Speaker 1:I hope this road goes to the right spot. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. Any wrong turn and I'm lost. I hope this road goes to the right spot?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're in Oklahoma for eight months? Yeah, not long. Did you end up here after that.
Speaker 2:No, so I moved to. I moved to Salt Lake City, I moved to Ogden, Utah. Actually, after that I was dating this girl at the time. Her dating, uh, this girl at the time, her name was rachel, and we were like dating, not dating. I lived in oklahoma, she was going to college in ogden.
Speaker 2:We kind of like split up but I was like, yeah, this is boring out here, I'm gonna come hang out with you right and so I go, drive to ogden and move to ogden, and we had one of my best friends was with me out in Oklahoma, right, and I left him there because I was like, yeah, we're going to go out get a spot and then I'll come pick you back up. You know, and it was this plan we had it worked, but it was definitely like months later, you know. So I moved back out, I moved to Ogden, utah. I lived with this girlfriend of mine for we're in Ogden probably for a year, got a house we lived, lived in this house.
Speaker 2:The first day is crazy, first like week, inside of this house we're at, we're near this cemetery. Right At the end of the street there's a cemetery and it's like our first week there and like somebody it's a bunch of 15 year olds beat up this like dude. It was like this grown 30 year old man or something like that and they ended up like beating him up and killing him or something at the end of the street and we were just like, okay, you know, like where did we move to? You know we're in Utah at this point and and and for my like small, little pea brain.
Speaker 1:Utah is a very religious kind of place, you know, very mormon.
Speaker 2:It is very mormon, yeah, very religious uh, and so the idea that somebody would do that was just like kind of I was. I was blown away a little bit, you know, and we were like wow like I guess we're in the ghetto, you know, in some wild way.
Speaker 2:But so we move into that spot. This happens, we're kind of just hanging out and I have a job, ish. You know, I'm working like jobs here, there I'm not really doing anything, I'm kind of just being a clog, you know. And uh, uh, I go back, pick up my friend in Oklahoma. We're both living in uh Ogden for a little bit and one of my, one of my other friends, is going to college in Salt Lake city and so we as a group, the Ogden group, we're like let's go, let's go move to Utah or like to Salt Lake, you know. So we find a house in Salt Lake and we started hanging out with my friend who's in college and we're just like down the street from it really.
Speaker 2:So like the way that the college works in salt lake city is it's up on the hill, the u of u and uh, and down below that is like there's the avenues and all these like housing, college housing, and as you get further down it comes down to downtown, right, so it's kind of this section. And so we we lived like right halfway between downtown and the college, right, and so we first moved there and the whole time we're just, it's just pretty much partying. You know, I'm young, I, my parents told me no a lot. So my first, like my first, reactions to life were like yes, you know, if yes is a thing and whatever yes could be, that would be it, you know. And so we're talking just anything we could do. But but the, the idea was like we would go up there certain times of night and we'd ride our skateboards down, you know, we'd bomb the hill and we just have these good, good times, really, you know. And then, uh, my friend ended up not graduating college because he was partying too much with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Surprise, and so he ended up moving back and we kind of just stayed in the area. Uh, I ended up making friends at the time Allegedly I was selling marijuana Allegedly, that's an alleged thing, so that was how I was making money back then. It was illegal, but I was definitely doing what I could to make the dollars happen at that time. Uh, so I was selling a little bit of weed, mom and dad no, I wasn't um the. So I was kind of like involved with a certain group of people. Um, and we went. I was big into raves at the time, I was a big electronic music person, I was dj and I kind of like had this whole thing happen and, uh, I was really into the music scene and so so what?
Speaker 1:what year is this?
Speaker 2:This would be. 2003 is when I graduated. 2004 is when I moved to Utah, so this is like 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007.
Speaker 1:So this is, this is like really both the apex and the decline of that whole scene. Sure, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. I mean the whole EDM scene from the mid-90s through the early aughts. It was a thing, it was a thing.
Speaker 2:It was a big thing. It was a big underground thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because Burning man and all that kind of stuff was really emerging, starting to come thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because Burning man and all that kind of stuff was really emerging.
Speaker 1:Starting to come out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and the whole it was crazy because where we were in Utah, since the Mormon oppression is so great and it was such a thing like the Mormons were very much so like there's no drugs, no alcohol, no caffeine, no this, no that, everything is, no sex, no, whatever you know. So your whole thing is really limited. But the one thing they were is like very friendly and, you know, played games and they were nice. People knew how to communicate, which is honestly crazy because most people don't, you know, but they're very much communicators in that group of people in the Mormons.
Speaker 1:So they got that going for them, you know? Well, it's funny. They're the nicest people in the world, like, if you want the country to be run by the nicest people, it would be the Mormons.
Speaker 2:And you know what, do you think you could really break it down their ideologies and like what they're really talking about? I'm sorry, I'm like making out with the microphone but you break it down with like their ideologies and stuff, like it's not bad. No, you know, they really were like love and care for your fellow man and like they wanted people to just be good to each other that was their whole.
Speaker 2:Thing yeah, um, and so with, with, like, the rave scene in utah, with that whole mormon oppression it was actually the underground scene was pretty big, like and in and in like 2000, like in our areas, there were parties being thrown. I remember going to raves in 99 all the way up through high school. I, we would just go, you know I'm 15, showing up like yeah, yeah, I'm an adult, you know I'm 15, showing up like yeah, yeah, I'm an adult. You know, like, so we would go. And then it would get to a point where, um, we would get to a point where, like I said, 2003, I graduated and I moved to Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:I come back to Utah, I'm, uh, I'm in Ogden, moved to salt Lake and, as I'm kind of messing around in salt Lake, I start like selling a little bit of weed and I start getting involved with a few different people, right, and I meet a couple people who are pretty much like the people who are doing electronic music in, like throwing these shows, like the shows. So like there would be a certain amount of shows a year Halloween, christmas, new Year's they would be a certain amount of shows a year halloween, christmas, new years they would do a show.
Speaker 2:You know it'd be like saint patty's day, valentine's day, things like that they'd have a couple summer ones and they were just like these huge parties that they would throw out at like. Like, if you've ever heard of salt air, it's a place out in utah, it's like this was built by some russian family and it's like this like, uh, kind of like palace looking thing, but out near this, the great salt lake, right, yeah, and so you could go out there and kind of see the salt lake and it's this whole event center, yeah. So we would throw them in this event center, right. And this is like some of the firsts that we would have with this other guy heath, I believe his name was. He was the one who was in control of it before we were, and so we were helping out doing this stuff, and it was a 2005. And we threw this party called Versus. It's called Versus 2. And the Versus 1 was a year before, in August, and it was like this like this person versus that person, right, they would back-to-back DJ kind of thing, so they'd have these like DJ battles. They would back-to-back DJ kind of thing, so they'd have these DJ battles. And so we're throwing this party out in.
Speaker 2:Spanish Fork is where it is. I got a hold of the property. I knew the people with the property and then my friends and I, I would donate, donate, I would give money to my homies who would pay, who would get the talent, so they would book the talent. And I found the property for this one particular show and we decided we were going to throw the Versus Party outdoor. It would be one of the biggest ones that we had done. We had to get a mass gatherings permit. We had to draw everything out Trash cans are going here, parking's here, the walkways are here, the stages are here. We had to do everything Like, so we get all these things done correctly. We think, uh, we get all of our permits, we, we, we have the show.
Speaker 2:The show goes down, it's probably 11 o'clock at night and, uh, I'm walking around. I just played a set earlier and now I'm walking around, kind of making sure the party's going good, and all of a sudden, like I look up and there's a helicopter coming over, right, and it makes no sense, right, cause I'm looking back and I'm at the, I'm like walking around and I go up to the front door. I see this helicopter and I walk up to the front gate and I talked to a couple of the security guards and this huge truck pulls up, just massive, and I'm like, what is this? And these dudes in camo come hopping up Boom, and I'm like, oh shit.
Speaker 2:And they're like get on the couch, get on the couch. They got guns in their faces and they're just telling us get on the couch. Pretty much they'll blow our heads off if we move. So we're like, okay. So we sit on the couch, they zip, tie us right and at the time I have a bag of weed in my pocket and I'm controlling the money.
Speaker 2:So, I'm looking at the money on the table and they're like what's this? And I was like those are our tickets and they're kind of set it aside. And I'm sitting there and they're running past us. So it's me and two other security guards on the couch and the cops just come flooding it. Flooding it, it's 90 uniform SWAT officers that came and raided a party of about a thousand people and we're talking like flashbangs, tasers, dogs beating people up. It's all on video. We got it all on video, yeah, and you know just the works, man, they, they put us through the ringer on that one.
Speaker 2:It's pretty crazy and so so we're sitting there and I'm in, I'm in these handcuffs, these handcuffs zip tied, I'm zip tied at the wrist. And uh, I'm thinking like you know, when I was young I got in trouble for weed. So I was like I'm not going down again. There's just no way, you know. And so, like I get my hands out of the zip ties and pull the bag of weed out of my pocket, ditch it right, put my hands back in the zip ties and, by some grace of somebody somewhere. The one of the cops goes did you search all them? And the other one goes yeah, we searched him, we didn't get searched. And he was like yeah, I searched him. So everybody's like looking at each other, like fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know we got out.
Speaker 2:So they say they search us and they leave us on the couch. And at that point I said fuck it, I'm not staying zip tied, you know. And so I pull my hands out of the zip tie and then go back and try to find my friends. And so I go back to find my friends and at this point it's may, it's mayhem everywhere, you know. So they, they raid us. I find the friends. I'm looking at the people who own the property. You know they're getting arrested and it's this whole thing. So you know, kind of fast forward after the event, after we get raided, we get picked up by the UCLA or the. Who are they? Not UCLA, the University of? We get picked up by the UCLA or the. Who are they? The? Not UCLA, the University of Nope, it's the law. They're like they're pretty much pro bono on law Gosh. Who are they?
Speaker 1:Gosh, not the UCLA, but the ACL. Yeah, yeah, aclu. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:That was close. I had them all in there.
Speaker 1:Speed of dyslexia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely they took they took us over and they were, they were helping our case, uh, for however long, like just for free, because they knew it was wrong. Right, alex jones, if you've heard that guy, he picked it up back in 2005, when it happened yeah, oh, they're blowing everything up.
Speaker 2:But so we, we had the whole court case and they they pretty much out-moneyed us. That was the whole thing is they said prove everything right, prove that they did this, prove they did that. So we kind of tried to prove it, but we got to the point that it was like we don't have the money to continue. So they dropped the charges against us. Nobody got in trouble, but the whole thing was to make an example out of us.
Speaker 2:And later on we had a friend, uh, and she passed away you know, rest her soul, uh, but she worked for this the mike sterba, who was the lawyer who ended up suing us for the whole party, saying that we didn't do it correctly, right, we didn't have our permits, we didn't have all this stuff which we did.
Speaker 2:So they tried to come at us at every angle and tell us that we weren't do it correctly, right, we didn't have our permits, we didn't have all this stuff which we did. So they tried to come at us at every angle and tell us that we weren't doing what we were doing. And this one of our friends, ashley, was working for him and she came back to us one day and was like yeah, I was talking to Mike and he straight up said like the only reason we raided you guys is because we didn't call them and say hey, like would you want to put some cops at the front door? Do you want to put these people here? Like we didn't include the county. And so they were like you can't just come in and have this like thing without us being included, gotcha. And so they just made an example out of us and kind of like made it to where no one would do that again.
Speaker 1:But believe it or not, they would know to ask. You want a couple of our cops at the door.
Speaker 2:Pretty much, yeah well, and I guess nowadays you know it's, you look at it and you just include everybody, you pay, whatever it is that you pay and you just call it, you know but all the little mafias and all their little forms, yeah no matter how you get them there, they got to be there.
Speaker 2:But the funny part was it was a negative thing to a positive reaction. So like a negative situation had a positive reaction where a few years after that it was like two more years after that I was still helping throw shows and stuff like that, you know. But what happened was is since that like that rave raid, since that happened, like, they named the company V2 versus two, and from then on it was like our shows blew up. People wanted to go to the shows, people wanted to come. They realized like oh wow, these people were throwing good shows and it just it literally exploded the scene from there. So the cops didn't know what they were doing. They thought they were going to shut it down, but in fact, really what happened was is it grew, yeah, which was, which is a pretty cool thing yeah, well, it kind of kind of sits in this, um, this reality, and you know I think it works politically right now.
Speaker 1:You know I'm not a populist by any means, but but you know the danger of populism, so to speak. Uh, that can happen, but it's also speaking to a need that people have. You know that that that, during that time, the need to express what, the structures that they felt that that were holding them down, right, you know it, it, it, it at least showed the people who wanted to express these other feelings, these other other motives, that a human might have to be able to express them somewhere, and all they did was advertise.
Speaker 1:It was expensive emotionally, I'm sure on your part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was all, all in the end worth every last little bit of it. Yeah, like that. They're still operating today. They're still the biggest production company in Utah. They're still operating today. They're still the biggest production company in Utah. They're still the most successful. They're my friends, you know. They just it was right place, right time, right moment everything like that, just the right time.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. It's pretty cool, man. Yeah, it's cool to see. So did you move from Utah to here? I did, yeah, what got you out here?
Speaker 2:You know, it was a person, um, so my ex-wife actually believe it or not, and we're friends now, so we're friends to this day. It's pretty cool, but, uh, it was mostly because of her and uh you're just following girls around everywhere yes, dude, he's got something going on.
Speaker 2:So she and anything. And so you know, just to touch on it, I was addicted to heroin through a lot of this, you know, through the party scene, through the whole thing like me selling drugs, I ended up getting on drugs, you know. So I just having a real hard time. She, when we first met, I confided in her. That that's what was going on, you know, and she helped me in a lot of ways, you know. She helped me get to my first Suboxone appointment. She helped me get to my first you know, like meetings and stuff like that for me to actually like take the steps to. Did you go to NAA?
Speaker 1:Try to figure.
Speaker 2:No, I well, you had to go to one or two to get the Suboxone. So I did Gotcha. No, you had to go to one or two to get the Suboxone. So I did Okay gotcha, when I was really young I did that. I got in trouble at 16 smoking weed.
Speaker 2:And they were like you got to go to moral recognition therapy. You got to go to AA and NA, you got to go to all of it and so P-tests and whatever. So I had done it. So I knew where I was, I knew what I was.
Speaker 2:At that point I wasn't ignorant to the fact that I was an addict, you know. But I also knew that I didn't. I didn't like hanging out with people who were on drugs. I just like to do them. You know, I just like to be high and I think that a lot of it was like. That was the first time in my life when I did heroin that my brain shut off. It was the first time that I didn't talk all that shit to myself. It was the first time that I didn't tell myself nasty stuff, you know. It was like the first time that my like depression was just at a bay, like you know, like, and I couldn't. It was just all like it shut off, there's nothing. So it was like the first time in my life that I felt like at peace, but I was on drugs.
Speaker 1:Is it okay if we talk about this? Absolutely yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm open, you know because anybody who's listened to my podcast knows that that you know I picked up booze late, you know it was 45,.
Speaker 1:You know, and, and for me the voices you know, as it pertains to depression, just that real negative thing that you wake up to every day you know, and and outsiders who don't drink and say all they want about, oh yeah, that probably caused it Like no, no, no, it's something that I had from the beginning. You know, and one of the things I've had to wrestle with through my sobriety is this reality that alcohol was a real solution for me and that's an uncomfortable reality, you know so. You know to your point that you know again, you're using a little bit harder drug, but, but the goal was to stop the negative content that was coming out of your brain. You know, towards you, it wasn't towards other people, it's towards yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know for anybody who hasn't had depression? Well, you've all been through COVID, so guess what people? The reason why you feel lethargic and like life doesn't matter, that's what depression is. It might get more acute, but welcome. Welcome to the club.
Speaker 2:You're all here.
Speaker 1:This is. This is what it feels, your little five-year journey here. But all joking aside, on your five-year journey, for those of us who have struggled with it for a very long time, why don't you? If you can? However, you want to share a little bit with the audience about what being depressed is like and what those types of drugs were an answer to.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I mean it's, you know, for me I, uh, I struggle with a lot of self-worth. I guess you know I struggled with the stories that I would tell myself. I grew up with, uh, a man in my life who was successful at everything. He touched, you know, and he, you know it was also very difficult to grow up around that, just mostly because he was good at everything and he was also very like commanding and demanding and very like his way or no way, right. And so you kind of grow up with this, like I don't have a personality. I don't have personality, I don't have like there's no room inside of the family for me to have myself, to be a person. You know, I had a personality.
Speaker 2:I was very goofy and outgoing and that was like who I, who I was trying to be, but it was all more of like a deflection of like the fact that I was sad you know yeah and I was just trying to like minimize, like my fucking sadness because it was, if you're around my family too much and you weren't fucking just chipper and happy all the time, it was a problem you know. So it was kind of just like a, just a deflection, like I'm going to be a certain way because, like, if I'm the other way, it doesn't. It doesn't fare well inside of the family, you know. Do you remember the first?
Speaker 1:time like roughly that you felt that way, cause cause I can look back in my life and go. It was probably about four or five, you know it didn't really set in until I was 12 or 13, until my parents broke up. Sure that, that all the feelings, is what you're left with, cause you don't have that security blanket of family or know whatever concept we have about that. For you, is there a time where you look back and go yeah, I was.
Speaker 2:It was about then and then here right is where it really set in I think that, yeah, when I was really young, I felt my dad hated me forever. I just knew that it was just as weird.
Speaker 2:Like god, the dude doesn't fucking like me, like what the fuck, you know? And it was like, well, what did I do? And like I remember thinking like a lot of the times I was young I was probably, you know, first time I could really put thoughts together, up until about 12, I think is when I finally realized like no, that dude's just a dick, and like I, uh, I kind of like realize like it's not me, like it's that guy he's just unhappy with, like what he has going on, you know. And then I kind of like like I said I thought it was me for a long time, you know realize like okay, it's, it's gotta be me, he hates me, all this stuff. And then I turned about like 12 and I'm like just about to become a teenager and I realized like, realized like, oh, like he's just an asshole, you know.
Speaker 2:But from that realization it kind of brought me to like, well, what the fuck do I do about it? How do I like get him to not be an asshole to me? You know, where is it? At what point do I? Do I, what do I? What do I say? What do I do? Is there something I can like do or say to make it to where he like understands where I'm coming from and like he'll just be my friend and be nice to me, or is it that like that's just never going to be a thing? So I struggled with, like the where do I fit inside of this fucking relationship? You know, I never felt like I fit with. It's always like never good enough is what it felt like. Whether they would tell you that was the case or not, you know it's just how it felt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I can tell you as, look, my dad's a great guy. I don't have that same experience of of feeling not liked by my dad, but there's a tension that we all have with our dads, Right. And you know, I've heard it expressed recently that that you never really get over anything until you can forgive your dad.
Speaker 2:Right, you know, like, like it sounds, it's hard, you know, as I'm tearing up a little bit, yeah, I'll let it out, buddy.
Speaker 1:That, yeah, well, let it out, buddy. That's what we're here for. Well, and the process of what that means, you know, because I think all of our dads would never intend to, you know, inflict the kind of pain that they can, you know. But you know, it's born out of this deep need in a child. You know, I've raised three great men, you know them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they're spectacular humans.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've raised three great men. You know them, they're spectacular humans and I can still feel that tension with them of do you accept me now? It seems absurd on my end because of course, in my heart it's like have I ever done that to you?
Speaker 2:Of course I accept you. At what point wouldn't I?
Speaker 1:accept you, but just this reality that we're meant to be born into, systems that accept us for who. We are Right, and it comes from that. Whether it's biology, god, however you want to garnish that hamburger, it is what it is that, as humans, we want to feel an intimacy in acceptance. That is just part part of being us right, and so it. It's complicated, it's convoluted, you know. It's got stories attached to it with the first times that my sons experienced something from me just wanting to produce excellence in them, right, right, I don't, you know I might have been talking about excellence, but it's very personal to them. It's like, oh, you don't like me because I don't think that yet, right, you know, whatever it is like, and that's right.
Speaker 1:My brain isn't necessarily doing the same thing that you're speaking to at this moment, you know, but the truth is the truth and they know that that's the truth also, and the confusion that can come with that and the depression that then comes with that because you don't feel like you fit right you know, um, yeah, so you know these are complicated scenarios, like, I guess, because I don't think there's anybody in the world that feels like they fit.
Speaker 1:Sure, so like it, but that can be such a dismissive statement. You know, like, if you're horribly depressed, you know someone looks at you and goes, oh, none of us feel like we fit. You know, like, if you're horribly depressed, you know someone looks at you and goes, oh, none of us feel like we fit. You're like, yeah, you don't want to wake up and stick a gun in your mouth every day, though, so there's a little bit of difference right between what I'm feeling and what you're feeling, right about that right feeling like mine should end yeah, yeah you just don't feel like you fit yeah, and you can move yourself and come to some sort of like like, better feeling.
Speaker 2:I moved myself out of this situation, so I feel better, where it's like you can't remove yourself from yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's like the hardest thing to fucking do is just be like oh cool, I'm still me today, you know there's no. Tomorrow will be me too, and so we'll later this afternoon. And like there is no. Like, no matter how far you try to remove whatever it is that you're doing or feeling, it's just still in there you know, it's a deep, some deep-seated something I'm not wanting to fast forward too much, but I do want to touch wherever man.
Speaker 1:Well, just to stay in a lane, you know because you know time constraints, sure, sure, you know there's a type of sobriety that you've walked in how many years now? Uh, 18, okay. So, so you've been 18 years, uh, from particular paths. Yeah, and you know, for me, I'm just coming on my third year of taking a sober outlook, you know, and my sobriety is, um, not dissimilar from yours, in the sense that this sense of meaning that I was looking for, that I couldn't find, and trying to put so much meaning into things, that's what I'm sobering up from right, you know, like, yeah, like it's like oh, you know, like it doesn't mean as much as I want to right.
Speaker 1:You know like I'm putting too much energy into these people, these things, right from the wrong spot in me got it. You know it's me right. You know it's it's not them that's doing anything to me. It's how I'm feeling like that that I can see how something works out ideally and structure and atmosphere to make those ideals work. You know, it's that thing that I'm sobering up from.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know things work how they work Right and taking that step back and accepting things for what they are Allowing yourself to just flow in some sort of way. Yeah, and so for you. You know I'm presuming that you know you stopped using heroin, stopped drinking around that time, or scaled back to you know a place that was more amenable to living.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:You're here now, right, so this is 18 years ago 18 years ago. I was 23 when I moved here okay, yeah, so so again, you're still really young. Yeah, yeah, this is, you know, it's not like 30 year old. Yeah, yeah, nick shows up here, yeah trying to make it work yeah, yeah, no, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:it's a young human that's coming to some consciousness about things. What do you feel like the path has been for you the last 18 years, you know, to get to a spot where I know you want to share a little bit about what you're up to. Sure, what has that path of sobriety been like for you?
Speaker 2:Right it's. You know, at first it was rough. Yeah, I would say I was happy that I wasn't on heroin. Yeah, and I was. You know, I I had actually I was drinking a little bit. So in the kitchen I worked in the kitchen. So I first job I had after pretty much just selling drugs for however many years, so it was like the first real job that I had had and it was in the kitchen and the kitchen is like a salty pirate ship. So everybody's kind of drinking and doing drugs well, yeah, yeah, the back of house is yeah, that's where it all flows.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and so you guys haven't figured that shit out, then?
Speaker 2:I'll tell you yeah, well, and that was like. The thing is that you know I didn't. I didn't really realize that I wasn't really drinking too much, like when I first, um, like, I got sober and I was drinking here there, but it was like my brain was still so wet from all the drugs. It was just really hard to like form a cohesive sentence. Like you know, I could barely talk, and so I get into the kitchen. I realize that everybody's like drinking. I start drinking. Right, it's probably 5, 23 till 27.
Speaker 2:At 27, I took a hard look and was like I'm fucking killing myself. I drink every day, all day, just to replace the heroin that I did. I don't feel normal anymore, like my my functionings aren't, aren't the same. So I like I kind of I said fuck it, I'm going to stop, I just want to see what happens. I stopped, uh, I took a break, um, quit, cold Turkey didn't drink for probably like five years. And what happened was is I uh, for probably like five years. And what happened was is I stopped drinking.
Speaker 2:I started jujitsu. It was like the first thing that I had done since, like heroin and like physical activity since I was 18, really First physical activity I had. So I decided that I was going to take my life into my own hands and I drove past jujitsu so much. I used to live over here, actually up the street from um the old claudio dojo, and so I would drive past it all the time and be like I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna go and learn how to throw a punch, is what I kept telling myself right, last thing you're gonna learn yeah, yeah it was so funny because I remember being like, yeah, I'm gonna learn how to fight and I go in there and, uh, my first class it was sold.
Speaker 2:You know, I went to my first class and it was the first time and since I was 18 years old, that I had my endorphins moving, that I had like some I could I breathe, like was breathing heavily, like I felt like I was gonna die. You know, literally I was like, oh my god, but it was like the it. It was this eye-opening experience that I hadn't felt that way in a really long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was this thing.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to back up just a little bit like pre-jiu-jitsu, yeah, because I think it's an important conversation to have, especially between friends. Sure, right right, it's you and I. Between friends, right right, it's you and I. And I think the hardest thing, you know, I, I, you know my depression had kind of gone away over covid for some strange reason, but I was still drinking a lot, you know. So I was still pretty numb to it.
Speaker 1:You know, when I sobered up, oh shit, you know, like the whole the whole wave came right. You know of all the things and you know I had a lot of tools going into it. So it's not fair to speak so openly about the ease of passage in a way of embracing my depression and my suicidal ideations again, like like that's right, you know, I, I come from a good background, good family, a lot of good structure and belief and all that kind of stuff. So so you know I had this set of tools that I that I really had to re-implement now that I wasn't numb. When you sobered up, you know when you decided to then, you know, not replace heroin with alcohol, what was that process like for you? On the, on the depressive cycle. You know was was that you know um you know I wasn't a thing.
Speaker 2:You know I I just, you know, truly, I think that it was so. One thing I will say is the you know, for as much shit as I talk about my dad when I'm young, that man instilled a lot of hard work in us. That's one thing that he did do is showed us what hard work is, showed us how to do that, showed us what dedication is, showed us how, like, if you want something, what that means, like what you have to do to achieve it, what it means to achieve these goals. So that's one thing I did have is like a father who you know my dad was, is like I said, anything he touched he's fucking great at anything, you know, and so it just everything he used was like you work fucking hard for it, you put the effort in and you get the results, kind of thing. And so I think I fell back onto that.
Speaker 2:I, you know, I think I was getting more sad drinking and I realized like how kind of sad I was in general and then, like, when I stopped, it was this I felt like it was this like moment that I could breathe in some way. Where I've? I finally was like fuck it, I'm going to implement the things I know, which is like I'm going to work hard, like whatever that means, and I'm going to try my best at, at at this adventure of of being sober, being clean, right, what does that mean? So to me that meant like like, okay, like my head's down I'm. You know, I'm going to deny everything that makes me feel good at this point, which is like smoking weed, you know.
Speaker 2:Uh, drinking alcohol, doing any type of drugs? Uh, shit, I was barely eating sugar, you know. I was like there's nothing. I just was like fuck, I don't deserve it in some wild way. I was like I just don't deserve that yet, you know. And so, like I put my head down and kind of was like how far can I go with the whole being sober? And yeah, it was, it was I, it felt almost like I was like my brain was capable of shutting off the depression just for those moments.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So as long as you were in that grind of doing the work, yeah I could, I could shut that down, because then it meant like I was, I saw myself putting in the work, I saw myself doing these things and and the results kind of. You know like you'd feel the results, you'd see it a little bit, but it was this like it's like, as long as I can ignore the rest of whatever's going on and just kind of have this pathway, I won't be sad, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you've put a lot of words to what I've tried to express, over almost 50 podcasts now, about a particular mentality that I was strapped to. You know where I'm up at five in the morning, not going to bed till midnight of just like poop, you know, just stay disciplined in everything that you do, like, just stay there. You're in the sweet, the sweet spot. Then you collapse, then you wake up and stay in the sweet spot, right, you know, this kind of in search of excellence mentality that has its own, you know, has its own byproduct, though you know, right, clearly, you can't, you know, go 20 years without having a nervous breakdown, as I'm a testimony to at that pace it's.
Speaker 1:it's a little rough, rough, but it gives you a lot of gray hair. But all joking aside, there is a life to live with these kinds of feelings that actually can produce a great amount of success, and I think most of the listeners, if they haven't examined this, would realize that the people you respect the most you know in industry sports. You know whatever it is, whatever they excel at, you're probably going to find a very clinically depressed person on the other end of that. That's driving towards excellence and mostly what you're watching is the process of depression that's very disciplined than it is anything. And so you know, it feels like really weird to be in our culture because we don't have all these identity markers, we just have symptoms, right, you know?
Speaker 1:but if your symptoms are the right ones, then we'll celebrate them, right, you know. And then you're a good person and you're like, right, they're sitting there hating themselves the whole time, right, like you're calling this good. Like I have to do this in the morning, right, you know, I'm glad you think I'm the best football player ever, or whatever, but like I hate myself, right, the fact that I do it so fucking much is because I don't like myself, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, that's totally true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so you know. I really much of this. But you show up at jujitsu and you know you're, you're black belt, now I'll let you know, and then you know. Obviously I had a little peek in, you know, because you and I haven't really spoke to each other this kind of detail about who you are as a person and you know I loved hearing your story. You know the this, in essence, kind of watered down speech.
Speaker 1:You know, to this thing, you know, as we do the black belt speeches yeah yeah, you know there's so many stories in between there and I'm like, oh god, I gotta, I gotta get, I gotta get nick on my podcast because because you know, I, I want to hear the details of the stuff. You know what was it like for you to be on the mat for the first time. You know that, just, you know those first years of finding a course and you know I said this to beer mike when he was on. You know when I, when I did the reboot, that I hated when people call it church like this is not church. This is something else.
Speaker 1:This is this really cool structure that all of us can climb and I can suck Like dude, you know I suck, I mean but mean, but but terrible, brother, you're doing it for you, you're doing it and what's capable for your body you were the first black belt. I subbed only because you made a mistake, because you were trying some highly technical shit, just fucking finish me yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it was, it was all happenstance and luck on my end, but but this, you know, this reality of the space where you could, you know, and I don't know if, if we can portray this in words like jujitsu is a thing, but then it's your own thing and it's a path and you have your own thing with a bunch of people who have this thing together. But it's your own thing, Right? It may be a group.
Speaker 2:It may, you may be in a group, but the individuality of each person is, is so great. Like you couldn't be acceptance, yeah, you couldn't necessarily do jujitsu without another person, but yet it is very much a singular. Who are you fighting? You're fighting yourself, the whole time you know you really you're like.
Speaker 2:If you think like you're like mike, my goal is to compete against you know, mike, the whole time like it's not. Your goal is to like what comes up in the middle of these roles. When do you want to quit? At what point are you telling yourself you're done and at what point are you telling yourself that they're done and at what point are you, are you not willing to make the next move and at what point are you willing to just lay back and die if you will in some sort of way? You know, and I think that was like the biggest thing for me as I got into jujitsu like just to go back to your question, like what I felt in the first little bit of it, my first stepping onto the mat and my first like kind of like experience with jujitsu is I wrestled from the time I was really young, through high school, but you know I did it only so much a year. It was like three months a year. You know you do do it and it's done, you know. And then you go do other sports and stuff and I think the biggest thing that jujitsu brought up to me inside of those first few times on the mat was like at what point, nick, are you willing to give up on yourself, you know, and at what point are you willing to keep fighting for yourself? You know, and it was this, it was this like harsh reality of like where I was willing to quit and where I was willing to go, you know, and it was this like thing that I kind of like had to like reanalyze in some way, was like I'm tired, so I'm going to stop, or like I'm this'll happen, so like I'm defeated in some way. You know, and then, as I like I got further into it, I realized like, oh, like all of those things you tell yourself like I'm too tired, I need to quit, or this is too difficult, I should just, whatever, you know, I'm gonna stop, or I'm gonna not do this, or I just won't do that. You know, my body doesn't do this. All these excuses, you tell yourself and you make up. It's stuff you're making up. Yeah, it's shit. You're literally making up.
Speaker 2:And I think that's something that like from wrestling. I'd have that in wrestling. I would get to a certain point. I'd get like four or five matches. In my fifth match I'd be tired as fuck and she'd be like fuck it, I'm gonna go hang out and eat food. So I'd quit on myself.
Speaker 2:And I think that I that brought that into jujitsu a couple of times and I realized, maybe somewhere around like you know, a year, maybe two years in I was like you're the one who's given up, like nobody's forcing you, like you may be tired but nobody like sat there and said you should quit. I said that I would tell myself these things and then I think that that is what really jujitsu had like brought to me was was these self-identifying markers of like where I was willing to stop and then like how do I get past that? What is getting past that? What is like? What is all of that like where, why, where and why and how does that like come up and how is it affecting me in my everyday life? You know, because it's like you get to this hard situation doesn't matter what it is, let's say, works difficult, or you know you're having problems with a significant other or something like that and you get to a point where it's the most challenging it's been. Do you just cater? Is it? Do you give up? Is it that you're frustrated? You can't think straight? You know it's like there's these things and I feel like that. That's what.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, what made me continue with jujitsu, was the fact that it brought up these things that I, like, had truly known that they were inside of me, but had no other way to like, actually like, like, have them rear their head. There's no other real way for them to show up other than like, like. I would say, like I'm done, like I'm physically done and like it made. It made a lot of sense, like, like that person trying to quit on you. Who is that motherfucker and why does he exist? You know, and it comes to, like, the depression and the certain things of like I'm not, I'm not this or I'm not that, or I'll never be this, or you know, it's the shit you tell yourself and when you're faced with it, you know that's the ultimate, it's the crux, it's like that's the ultimate spot, like, what do I do when I'm faced with that? How do I? How do?
Speaker 1:I face it. Yeah, it's funny that you're saying this now. You know cause. I've been having a back problem now for about a year, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not a back problem.
Speaker 1:It's a laziness problem on my part, okay, and you know it's funny, cause I lead a fairly disciplined life, but my refusal to stretch 10 minutes in the morning and open my hips up and 10 minutes at night.
Speaker 1:It's not like I'm doing anything during those times, you know. But but again, this is me convinced I'm disciplined when in reality I'm hurting myself. You know, because there's 20 minutes of my day of things that I, I would be doing the same things in those 10 minutes while I'm stretching, also right. You know this thing, like what's in the way it's me, right, also right. You know this thing like what's in the way it's me, right, I am in the way, you know. I, I don't. You know, there's so many other structures in life to me that allow for those caveats of allowing yourself to be, in a way, right, right, and in jujitsu, no, no, like you're going to hurt yourself if you don't do the next thing Right, which for me is like stretching my hips out. It's a pretty simple thing, right, I just need to get on the roller.
Speaker 1:And do it, and listen to the music of the podcast that I'm doing. And just do it. It's not like the time isn't being spent already. Right, you have it.
Speaker 2:It's there yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not like it's work either.
Speaker 2:It's just this strange little spot that I get in the way of myself, and so it's funny listening to you listen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And more than anything, I want to express at least my journey, because I got to start so late. I'm 48, and I'm watching Doug get his black belt. That's my first year. That's my life. That's what's about to happen to me. You know, in 12 years from now I am that gray haired guy talking about how this thing rescued me from myself in some strange way, and it was a weird cult to be in all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:My wife, my wife's like hits me.
Speaker 1:She's like that's your story and she's kind of tearing up, I'm tearing up, I'm like holy cow. This is the thing. You could see, the pain and the joy in his eyes as he's doing his black belt speech, that thing that we get to experience through pain. There's nothing comfortable about jujitsu. You get comfortable with the discomfort, Right and again it's. It's a world I'm familiar with, so I like the discomfort, I like the pain.
Speaker 2:That helps me operate.
Speaker 1:You know keeps me clear. You know that. You know it's not for everybody.
Speaker 2:I get it, but the disciplines required to stay in pain you know, like that's what jujitsu has some sort of masochistic weirdo to keep going and you just didn't kill me. That's a real bummer for you. I'm coming back. Yeah, for real. For real, it's a. It's a weird drive to have it.
Speaker 1:You know, that was it yeah, they'd be able to look at someone in the eyes. It goes okay, that was your shot. Not dead yet, dude, nope, here we go. Yeah, this, this is where I show up and and, uh, you know, it feeds that big piece of my ego that I don't know is all bad of like, okay, I'm gonna give you your shot and then I'm gonna have my shot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know better fucking do it, because if you don't, because if you's, here's the next phase that you didn't plan on, yeah, and I took the first phase, so right, you know, it fits my personality arch in a really good way. Yeah, of course I have no offense. All my offense comes comes from defense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, some of the best.
Speaker 1:I'll never forget Tupper going why?
Speaker 2:would you want to have neon belly Like? This is the worst place.
Speaker 1:I'm like it's not the worst place. Tom, I can handle this part you know.
Speaker 2:I just need to know what's going to hurt. You know how it's going to hurt before I before I start doing the things.
Speaker 1:So you know it was. It was great for my personality just to be able to live being me. I like pain. Live being me, I like pain. This is good, Right, I can handle this pain, that's all you got Okay, yeah, all right. Well, how do we get out of this, right you know?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:Cause you can't finish it Right, so what?
Speaker 2:what, what step yeah.
Speaker 1:What is the next step? What's? The next little thing I need to do next thing, not killing me though. Yeah, not kill me though yeah, so you know, before we close out, I really do want to have you talk a little bit more about, about your you're doing a thing.
Speaker 2:The new adventure, a new adventure. Yeah, yeah. Well, I just did just side and I do appreciate, mike. Every time, you know jujitsu, I knew you're a special human, you know I could see it in your eyes, man, and every time it's something that I don't do for everybody and I'm happy that, like I could help you out that one time with your whole dream sequence and everything. Just know that like I see you. Yeah, I know I see you bro.
Speaker 1:You know and we're not all, not months I was at the club and I wasn't going to share the story, but I'm going to now.
Speaker 1:Sorry no no, it's okay. Well, I really like what you were having to say and I didn't want to disrupt. But since we're here, you brought it up. Sure, you know, in my world of ministry, you know there's a way that things happen, you know where people might have words for you, you know that are really from God in my estimation. And you know I showed up to jujitsu. It's pretty weird there. It's a lot of freaks and weirdos, including myself. Yeah, yeah, I already know I'm a freaking weirdo, so I don't want it to be as freaky as I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:Portraying it and we're doing King of the Mad or something like that, and I realized that I had had a dream about you and we had never rolled together ever. And it was pretty that we'll leave the dream out of it. But it's like you, look at me. You're like, hey, man, I interpret dreams. Is it okay if I, if if I look this thing up and kind of come back with you in a few days about that and I'm like, oh no, here we go yeah here we go.
Speaker 1:But you know, what you didn't know is, at the time I was deciding whether or not to sign my ordination again, and it wasn't that the powers that be, they didn't want me out. I'll put it to you that way. Sure, there was a lot of pressure for me to sign and just kind of get some time in, but I had really felt at the time that God had told me no, just no. No, that you're doing this for something that's not me Period, and something that's not me Period.
Speaker 1:And so that's a pretty hard way to hear it. As someone who does believe in God and thinks that I hear the voice of God at times, I fucking fully believe you do, my friend Uncomfortable realities when God's telling you no about a thing you've dedicated your life to and thought that's how it would end.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And um, and so I was really struggling, and you know, then, of course, I'm like I don't know who this guy is, like Holy, oh God, what, what? What have I done by even mentioning by even mentioning, I had a dream that was. That was like oh, this is weird, like I don't dream. I totally remember last night I was dreaming about rolling with you and like this is weird, like I don't dream. I totally remember last night I was dreaming about rolling with you.
Speaker 2:Like that's weird, because we just had I think there was colors and a few other things involved that you had told me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a very descriptive dream.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The dream's not the point. The point is is that you came back to me and I was like I wonder what this is going to be like, because I have a way that I believe things happen for people in the prophetic, that there's a kindness to it, that it's hope that.
Speaker 1:God's not just correcting us, that, he's pointing us into a direction of hope and I'll never forget you coming back and you're like you go. Hey, man, you're going through something real heavy right now. It's like a big decision of some sort. He goes, man, you put your life to this thing and God's just telling you to let go. Man, he's just telling you to let go. There's another path for you, that he doesn't want you in that old path anymore.
Speaker 2:And he loves you and it's okay.
Speaker 1:And then you're like, you know, I don't know if you're a Christian, but I am, and you just have this whole thing of like. And it had been so long that I had felt the peace of God from someone's mouth, because, in the Christian experience, words from God are generally negative. You know, when you're getting prayer times or whatever else, right, right, you know, I had distanced myself from my own denominations' behaviors that way. You know, yes, they should be corrective, but to a place of peace for the person. You know, and not about the obvious. You know, it's about destinations, not about what you're doing wrong. And I remember walking, walking in with you, signing in, going back out, crying like did God just talk to me through that?
Speaker 1:Like what the hell am I in the middle of? This is weird, you know, and telling my wife about it and she's like, well gosh, that's on the money, yeah, and only from a stranger. Only God could use a stranger to tell you exactly where you're at, see all the things that you're seeing, and speak to it in such a nuanced way of a hopeful future. In such a nuanced way of a hopeful future, like it just did something in me. That it's not that, like all jujitsu academies are the same or whatever, that everybody. I don't want to minimize or maximize any of the weirdness.
Speaker 2:Right that canon air will yes.
Speaker 1:But there's just this reality of like oh, I'm safe here, sure, and I hadn't felt safe until that point Wow.
Speaker 2:Very cool, you know, and it's not because of the people.
Speaker 1:It's just. I didn't feel safe for myself. There's a lot of things going on, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, like you just said, there's the you know. I think that, honestly, what happened was God gave you the choice. Yeah, he said you can either share this with this young man or you can keep it on the inside. And the truth and the fact that you shared it with me, I'm one of those people that's like fuck yeah, dude, I'll meet you there, I'm into it. Yeah, it made me feel really good personally to be able to go do that and just come back and just tell you what?
Speaker 2:Because I'm the same way. We talked about this beginning and then we'll get on to this other stuff. The beginning you're talking about how, like, certain pastors go through and then, like it becomes less of like, uh god speaking through them and then put filling their own ego with, like, whatever it is they're doing, right, it's kind of the same idea is like I try never to. I try never to allow myself to just be like this is ultimately what it is, and then put my opinion on it because it's I don't fucking know. But I do know what you tell me and I do know that, like certain shit that people say, like at a certain point it's, it's like what's happening inside here, it gives you so much information without you even knowing it, you know. So I think the idea was just to share yeah, well, it would.
Speaker 1:Hopefully it would help. It was beautiful. I forgot to put this line in. It was. It was. I'm trying to remember the moment.
Speaker 1:But basically you're like man, the shit you're going through is really heavy right now. It's a big decision. Whatever it is, you're deciding, yeah, and he goes. Then that's when you said, you know, I don't know if you roll this way, but you know I'm a christian and like, uh, yeah, I'm kind of a christian. Yeah, kind of yeah, but but it was like you said, it was so heavy, I actually prayed for you. Yeah, you know, like and just like I remember this back when people had people's hearts in their hands, yeah, that that instead of coming with a bunch of data points, he just prayed for some like the gentility of knowing that, wow, god's speaking right now. I need to pray for this guy. You put the energy in, just put the kind energy out of like, hey, we're connected in this thing, we're calling God and hey, god, this guy needs that energy too on his end. Yeah, yeah, that gentleness of spirit in middle of the death zone, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the kill zone.
Speaker 1:Where it's like okay, we're all trying to kill each other, and here a killer came with a message of life to me was just a beautiful experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so, you know what.
Speaker 2:I think that that brings us into what we're then into, like the, what we're gonna talk about really, yeah, you know, I think that it brings us into the fact that, like that, I personally, I personally think that that is what my main calling is, I think and it sounds so crazy and it's not to be a, it's not to be how do I put this it's not to be the messenger, it's not to, you know, to to be this prophetic human, it's not anything like that, it's it's that I see where I can help and I feel like you know, I feel like I have enough compassion inside of me to see the fact that, like the, certain people inside of our society need more help than others, you know, and it's not, it's not the, it's not the you give them the answer.
Speaker 2:It's that you, you show them away in some way, like here's a path, it's a path. Path like this is kind of a thing like you can take this path or that path. It's like whatever path you choose, right, but yet these are, these are some pathways that will benefit, like benefit the person later in life, right so I'm going to frame it up a little bit because I I, you know, I inherently kind of know where you're going.
Speaker 1:You know, for the addictive community there's not a lot of margin, there's only abstinence. You know, it's like you're either in a program or you got to get well fast and that doesn't happen. Right, you know it's not an easy path to get sober, it's not an easy path to get clear. I mean the level of clarity that I'm running into with all the tools that I had going into.
Speaker 2:You know a, you know I didn't know what the toolbox was just right, you had it, you know it's like I had all the tools.
Speaker 1:There's no next set of tools that I need. It's just oh, my toolbox was not arranged the right way, got it, but you know, on the chemical side, you know there are these paths that people have been working on to help people not have to struggle with the addictions that they have right, and so you are working on a project to to get some more tools for the addictive community to get out of a space right where they're being harmed by their addiction yeah, by by themselves.
Speaker 2:And it just another, another pathway, you know just another. It's just like another way for like people to look at it. Like we all think that, like you said, abstinence, and there's this certain thing that you do that, like you know, you don't talk to this group of people and you don't do that. I mean, I have a friend who is going, going through it now, very much so, and you know she's removed herself to the point that she no longer hanging out with the people she used to. She doesn't go out anymore, she doesn't do this. She's still terribly depressed, she's still terribly sad. It still hurts, you know, uh, in a way that's like she can't. Even if she wanted to go find new social structures and friends in this moment she can't because she got, you know, like she just has, she doesn't have what I guess you would call like the tools right, she doesn't have the tool chest you know to go do that, yeah, but the one thing, that and I think that's more true for a lot of people than it is- I believe,
Speaker 2:it's true, for most they don't. You get to a certain point, you don't have it. One thing this like we were mentioning, I think and I'll keep it quick was the whole. So I am, I'm starting this whole new kind of project, if you will. I guess I don't even what I would. I would call it, but it's like kind of a calling. It's the same thing. Like I, you know, a voice has told me that this is where I'm headed, and not very many times I've had something. It's not my voice Tell me some shit. Yeah, it's real uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:It's like what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I have voices talk to me, but that's a different story.
Speaker 2:But the truth is, those of us who acknowledge them, yes, yes, yeah, I know they're there, those guys, uh, they keep me up at night sometimes but yeah, it's the, it's the something told me like and a lot of it is is like I, you know, just to touch on it, it's what I've, what I have experienced and what I've found through like just research and medicine in general. Different type of plant medicines that are out there that actually are beneficial to people with you go from PTSD to depression, to drug addiction, to alcoholism, to traumatic brain injuries. To you know, it almost seems like it's a miracle sent from God, is what it seems like, because at this point, the amount of things that it's helping, the amount of things that it's, I wouldn't say curing, but giving it the extra, if you will like you know PTSD, like there's this thing called Ibogaine and Ibogaine is a plant medicine. It's a root bark from South Africa and this place called Gabon, gabon, south Africa, and there's a tribe out there called the Bwidi tribe. They're a cult, is what they call themselves a spiritual cult, and what it is is. You heard of tramadol. Tramadol is like a painkiller. Tramadol is like, uh, wild rampant down in south africa and in certain parts like a bone and a few other parts it's like rampant. They're saying that some of the animals that are like they're being fed a certain thing and the animals pretty much pee out tramadol. So it's everywhere, it's in the water, it's in the food, it's everywhere. So people are highly addicted to this. So this tribe, the Bwidi tribe out of South Africa, has this medicine.
Speaker 2:The medicine's been around for a while iboga. They've had ceremonies forever, right, and iboga is what they've been using to help their people kick and get off of drugs and help them cure any and and help them, you know, cure any number of things that they have going on. Right, like it's an anti-inflammatory, it it's. They say that it has what would you call anti it's, antibacterial properties. They say that it helps clear and cleanse the body. So my friend introduced me to this. We've heard about it a long time ago. Heard about it was like, oh, that sounds crazy. So she introduced it to me because she had the privilege of going down to Cancun and right at the height of her addiction, cleaned up, had nine days no drugs, was a nightmare to these people, because that's just who she is and went down and, uh, the amount of compassion that this place had showed her was insane and they just knew so as soon as she took her first medic like dose of medicine. Uh, you know she, she was like man. I still feel like shit, but I could. I could feel something. And it wasn't until her third round.
Speaker 2:Because the way it works is you have to have four consecutive days of of of this treatment and they give you four consecutive days of this treatment. You go into a dark room, they put these. Your eyes get real sensitive to light, so they put these masks on. You listen, listen to this music, you go through the treatment. So within, like the first day, you don't really realize it, but within the first flood dose is what they call it.
Speaker 2:Your actual addictive brain is changed and they talk about the white matter growing across the top of your brain, the pathways that connect each, each firing neuron. Through the pathways. Is this white matter right? And as this white matter gets damaged through time, through trauma, through drugs, through brain injuries, things like that, it gets thinner and thinner and so as, as it thins, these pathways don't connect as well. So as you, as this Ibogaine gets introduced into your system, it, within the first dose, regrows the brain matter up to something like it's like 80 something percent regrowth. They talk about the regression of your brain. Uh, in age, on the average human was about a year and a half and for the top 90 something percentile it's like four and a half years. Like your brain regresses and not as in. Like you, you don't you stop learning things, it just it. It like de-ages your brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So she's introducing this to me. You know she goes through her whole treatment. By her third treatment she's leaving the treatment room singing and dancing and just the happiest woman you know, and comes back and we start talking about it and she pretty much tells me like, hey, this is, this is a thing like it's illegal here in the united states and what it is is. It's a class one or a schedule one, so there's no medical purpose there. It's highly addictive, which is not true, not when both of those counts. So she's telling me about that. I have the privilege of taking the medicine. So I have, I have the privilege of, uh, of sitting back and and taking the medicine, and the only best way I could really describe it was that the amount of hate for yourself that was lifted off of my heart is incredible yeah it's incredible because it's like one of those things where you, like you don't really realize, like how powerful it is until it's like done, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you've gone through the whole fucking like rigmarole of like where am I as a human? And you start to kind of look at things differently. You don't look at things as like as this negative. You're looking at them like wow, like, like well, how do I, how, how do I, how did I feel that way about myself? And why you know, there's no reason for it Like God loves me, and that's the one thing that I that I would say that was the most profound thing about this whole thing is I was shown, I was just. I was shown.
Speaker 2:You know, some of us have faith and some of us believe that way and some of us just need to be shown, you know, and like just it's the amount of beauty that was inside of the medicine and the situation and just how it all worked out. It brought me to this point that I, like I realized like I don't, I don't need to think a certain way about myself. You know, I'm human, that's what we're here for. God gave us this body and this vessel to experience life. You're human man. We're all going to fuck up. We're all going to do the shit that you didn't think you were gonna and you do. You're going gonna be this person that maybe sometimes you don't like you know, but to truly say that you hate yourself is like something like it just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:And I think that was the biggest thing, the amount of that it came off of me, the amount of like love that ended up reinstilling for myself it it brought me to this moment where I had a family member contact me and they were, like, how did you get that medicine? Like, my older brother has PTSD, he's multiple wars, he's a veteran, and you know he was like, how do I get the medicine? And I told him the prices of everything and how to do it. And it brought me to this whole thing Like, how do we get people that really need the medicine? Medicine? Because at a certain point, like what are we doing?
Speaker 2:There's certain people that, like, do nothing but serve our country. And like my great uncle, ernie, was in world war two. You know my, my grandpa served in the military, my dad served in the military, my older brother served in the military, my mom served in the military, my real mom, you know my, my oldest sister, is a fucking sheriff. Like, and at what point? Like are are these people like? At what point are these people's mental health like? When do we just do we just give it up? Yeah, how do we do we just ignore it? What is it? Yeah, and so, like I think that the biggest thing it brought me to this thing is, like I want to be able to help in in a fashion that I want to be able to get funding for people to to go and do this like if you're a veteran, if you're a drug addict, like I want to help you. I want you to experience, I want people to experience. You have to go and do this Like if you're a veteran, if you're a drug addict, like I want to help you. I want you to experience, I want people to experience.
Speaker 2:If you have depression, you should be able to experience this. We should be able to cure our people. We shouldn't be just here's a pile of medicine that will maybe take care of whatever it is. You're feeling there should you know for what it is and for the insane amount of benefits that it's doing for people like this should be no reason that it's illegal, that, like the way that it is, there should be no reason that we don't all have access to something like this. There should be no reason for that. You know, and there is, and we could go off about it, but we're not. We know why. But the truth is, is that's the ultimate goal, I think, is that how do we find funding for people that need the medicine and how do you get the medicine to people that truly need it? Yeah, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to relate and then unfortunately for time constraints. I have to close out a little bit. I understand, but this is a very serious point. As someone who had the privilege of using alternative methods and as I've been expressing, my depression went away two Februaries ago. I'm a year without it Now. A lot of personal work, but I microdosed psilocybin too, for about six months and, and for those of you who haven't done it, I haven't tripped once.
Speaker 1:It's not that right it's, it's other neural pathway work and and uh, supervised in some way. You know, I I had the means and the way to get to this thing that is legal here in California, and I cannot tell you what one thing it was that changed me, because it wasn't one thing.
Speaker 1:But, I can tell you that I felt different after that process of doing these micro doses. That literally changed the way that I think Right and all that chatter went away. All the things that, that, all the words that are harming you constantly, that you're thinking them. It's not anybody else coming at you with them. They may sound like somebody else's voice, but it's you.
Speaker 1:It's you. You know what Someone like me, like you, can experience of just getting that chatter out and having your mind changed. It's transformative. I am a different person now than I was last year, and not because I've grown, it's not just because of my work, right, the arrogance of thinking that, because I'm a man who worked his whole life towards those things, right, very introspective, very empathetic, you know, right, that guy. But those things only work so much. And and to have something as simple as something that's been around, that's pretty well researched, that again the fda is not sure what they're going to do with it, like, hey, look it, I was doing the same work before. This was transformative. I don't know what to tell you. I didn't even have to go through the big trips. I didn't have to process all the things that got processed, which is strange, because they got processed somehow, because they got to think about it differently because the neuropathway work that we know psilocybin does.
Speaker 1:I got new neuropathways Able to connect certain thoughts. I'm learning to think differently. Right, it's not just a path. You have to have the roads Right. So you're starting a group, in essence, to help raise funds so people can go get treatment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a nonprofit kind of idea. We're still mulling over the name right now. It's been a few different names, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, when I get fully organized and you get fully organized, we'll be sure to set a link oh we sure will To this thing. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? Look, nick, it's been such a pleasure to get to know you more. Yeah, I mean, I can't express to the audience enough Like Nick and I don't know each other. Yeah, we've been around each other a lot. We've had some very intimate moments. Sure, you know on the mat, but it's not as though that you know we're close friends or anything like that, but thank you.
Speaker 1:so To be transparent. Thanks for loving me showing up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate you for that. Yeah, 100%, and I love you a bunch. I love you too, man. Thanks for showing up. I appreciate you. Yeah, yeah, this has been cool. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, I'm going to see if I can cue up my music.
Speaker 2:I'm always know, yeah, sometimes you know what Simple is best, though, yeah it ain't got to be difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's the cued music. That's it.
Speaker 2:All right, take care everybody. Thank you, man, I appreciate it.