Unpacked In Santa Cruz
"Unpacked in Santa Cruz" is a homegrown podcast hosted by Michael Howard that dives into the lives, stories, and salty moments of people who call this coastal community home—or have been shaped by it in some way. Whether it's a deep conversation with local surfers opening up about mental health, or a peek behind the curtain of someone who started a one-of-a-kind food spot right here in town, every episode brings something real.
You’ll hear from folks who found healing behind the lens, built businesses from scratch, or chased massive waves thanks to a lifetime spent around our local waters. These aren’t just interviews—they’re conversations that reflect the heart and soul of Santa Cruz. Raw, reflective, and rooted in community, Unpacked in Santa Cruz brings local voices to the surface.
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Episode 59: Neil Sprenkel Bubbles Inside of Bubbles and How To Get Beyond The Bubble
Ever wonder what it's like to grow up inside "a bubble within a bubble"? Neil Sprenkel takes us into the unique world of Capitola, California—where neighborhoods feel like sanctuaries and surf spots become territories with unwritten rules that shape young lives in profound ways.
When his parents divorced during his seventh grade year, Neil found himself drawn deeper into surfing—not just as a sport, but as therapy. "I would go underwater and scream until I felt that energy leave my body," he reveals, describing how the ocean became his sanctuary during emotional turmoil. This raw confession opens the door to a broader truth: "Half of surfers surf because of trauma," Neil observes. Not that they choose surfing because of trauma, but they discover its healing qualities and can't let go.
The conversation takes a remarkable turn as Neil shares his deliberate journey toward mental health through a year of sobriety and silence. "I wanted my behavior to be true and intentional," he explains, detailing how therapy helped him break down emotional barriers built since childhood. Through this process, he discovered what genuine joy feels like—perhaps for the first time—and now wakes up energized even without an alarm clock. "I think I'm happy," he tells his girlfriend, almost surprised by the realization.
Both Neil and host Michael Howard explore how their relationship with surfing has evolved from competitive identity to something more peaceful and intentional. Their shared experiences reveal how confronting wounds, embracing silence, and practicing presence can transform not just our relationship with sports like surfing, but with ourselves and everyone around us.
Have you been seeking clarity in your own life? Or wondering how to break free from patterns that no longer serve you? This conversation might just be the nudge you need to dive beneath the surface of your own story. Subscribe now and join us for more authentic conversations that explore the true impact of Santa Cruz culture on the people who call it home.
anyway, second time, here we go. Here we are welcome to the impact of santa cruz podcast. This is michael howard, your host. This podcast is brought to you today by santa cruz vibes magazine, also by point side beat check, and we'd like to welcome all of you to listening to my conversation with Neil Sprinkle sprinkle.
Speaker 2:Sprinkle.
Speaker 1:Sprinkle.
Speaker 2:Sprinkle.
Speaker 1:And here you are. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Yes, part two, part two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I guess I do have to do full dildo cheer. We went good yesterday Like it was a great conversation, super fresh Now, unfortunately. Great conversation, super fresh Now, unfortunately. We know each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now we know each other. Thank goodness we're still friends.
Speaker 1:But it was really good yesterday. Yeah, you had to take a nap afterwards.
Speaker 2:I had to take a nap afterwards. That felt like a three-hour therapy session. Okay, yeah, that was incredible. I mean, maybe it was the hey I forgot to. I made a technical error and I was like my brain shut off after that. But yeah, I mean, regardless whether we recorded or not, that was cool. It was cool to get to know you more, you got to know me more and now we get to share that again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Well thanks again for yesterday. Yeah, but here you are, listening to what's happening today, so we'd like to welcome all of you to round two some 24 hours afterwards. But, neil, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself, and we'll just start from there and go from there?
Speaker 2:I am obviously Neil Sprankle and have multiple last names. You can call me. Come up with something new, please comment. I grew up in Santa Cruz, california, specifically Capitola. I am 29 years old, grew up playing sports my whole life like any other kid hopefully should or should experience and eventually got into surfing around middle school and it really just took off from there. It took over my life and all I could see was surf, surf, surf, surf, um, watching surf videos when I should be doing homework. It just became a full addiction and now I find myself actually the owner of a surf company. I acquired a surf company this year and now I get to share that every single day with people and share the experience of surfing, and I get to surf myself, which is awesome. And I also want to throw in I got a 10-year-old dog.
Speaker 1:Yes, you do.
Speaker 2:I got him when I was 19. So if there's any young teenagers out there, do not get a dog when you're 19, 18 years old. You'll learn a lot very quick and it's a great experience, but you can also learn that later in life it will restrict your surf travels and you can't just jet out of the house and go travel.
Speaker 1:So think about that for a bit. That's hilarious. Same discussion I had with my wife, Next dog Charlie, whom I love. I love Charlie.
Speaker 2:You love him, but oh, it's a she To love, oh love.
Speaker 1:Charlie, you love him, but oh, it's a she. I love her. Charlie. Lemon Freya Sauerkraut, as it would be with the nature of our house, as you know, everybody had to have their input, right right, yeah, ace's full name is Ace Jack Sprankle.
Speaker 2:He did take my last name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we didn't even get to our last name on that one.
Speaker 1:I guess Howard at the end yeah we didn't even get to our last name on that one. I guess Howard at the end. Yeah, so you grew up in Capitola and I think for the audience that really, as I expressed yesterday, it's so weird In a very short time, from January, some 20 podcasts later, we're in 22 countries. As I told you yesterday, my listening audience is actually pretty small here in town. You know why don't you explain for the audience a little bit what it was like? You know the difference in Santa Cruz, like what's different about Capitola?
Speaker 2:being specific, like you say you're from Santa Cruz but actually specifically yeah, to bubble within a bubble is Capitola I really is, it's amazing. Is Capitola I really is, it's amazing. Capitola is so unique. It has everything you need and so as a kid, I never thought I really needed to go anywhere else. Why, why would you? There's no reason. Neighborhoods are great, surf's great, the people are great, you got grocery, stores, stores, everything you need, and but then once you get out of that bubble, you're like, oh my god, there's this whole another world out there.
Speaker 2:But I will say from an early age and I am blessed that my parents did this is we traveled a lot, and whether it be out of the country, state to state, coming home it was no, oh man, I got to go home. It was like, oh sweet, I get to go back to Capitol, I get to go back to Santa Cruz and play. And I tell people this a lot is that we are in the playground, and if you don't know the rules of the playground, then there might be some problems, but we are in the playground. And I think from a young age I realized, wow, this is special and people who live here want it to work. Um, but, yeah, the I mean we could talk more about capitol.
Speaker 2:But capitol is such a unique spot it really is. It's a, it's a hub. But capitol village is so different than, say, the neighborhoods that are surrounding. It's kind of I was thinking about it the other day it's almost this like this skate bowl where people can look into capitol and they can look into the busyness of it. But then outside on the edge, you can kind of just hang out um, I guess it would be more like a pool, but it's chaos in the pool. Then around the edge you can just kind of sunbathe and hang out in these quiet neighborhoods, um, that are hopefully filled with some kids if you're growing up around there. But my neighborhood was pretty.
Speaker 1:You had, you know, five families, if that in the neighborhood so it was very tight-knit, yeah, so so you also have like the unique experience that I did, you know, in my early teens, of growing up in the Jewel Box, and the Jewel Box is actually super unique to Capitola also in that, you know, when I was there it was a bedroom community for people from the valley, you know, that were commuting, so there were just not a lot of people around, on top of the fact that the more expensive houses were owned by Central Valley families, by big families that had been owned for like 100 years, and so they would come and visit on the weekends. So there was this feel to it of living there. But there was only one other young person my age growing up there from the time I was like 13. Jp was the only guy and then someone I grew up with that I used to water ski with. Is Neal's looking at all the water skis? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I can't believe I'm laying eyes on these water skis, yeah.
Speaker 1:Now that I grew up water skiing, like she lived in the neighborhood too and she was a year older than me. Jp was a year younger than me and like that was it. We were the three kids in the whole fricking neighborhood and we didn't play Like let's just say that JP and I surf together. But you know it was, it was not a family neighborhood and when you got there it had that similar feel.
Speaker 2:It had a very similar feel and as a kid you get to learn. I mean, at that time I was very blessed too. I got to be bored. I didn't have a phone, so I got to be bored, and I spent a lot of time shooting hoops, playing basketball, because that was a sport that I could do by myself and I would usually just wait for my dad to get home. I'd be so happy when he would get home to play, and anytime he'd get home a little bit late from work, you know I was pretty bummed and you know all I want to do is play catch with him, and so when those opportunities did happen, it was just it made my day completely. But I would say once a neighbor I did have a neighbor, a family move in adjacent to ours while they were getting their house built and my dad it was just, oh, thank goodness Cause he grew up in a time where everyone had kids and he would, he can go play. You know the streets always filled with people and to see me just kind of waiting around wanting to play was hard on him. But we talked about this yesterday. That was at Cliffwood Heights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That neighborhood. He liked that neighborhood because that felt like home to him.
Speaker 2:That community and the Jewel Box was this area where you had to be kind of independent and curious on your own and eventually you'd see someone and you would. For me at least, I was like I will do anything to play with anybody Like if they want to play. I don't like playing video games, but if they want to go and play video games, sure I'll play for a little bit. Maybe they'll play my sport too. But I really was curious.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'll do anything, I want to interact with people, but you do get to learn a lot about yourself in those times. And then when you get to value neighbors and when you do have friends over, you really get to value that and you want to have a good time. So I think a lot comes with that. But again, me playing basketball by myself that neighborhood, you know people would complain. Basketball by myself that neighborhood, you know people would complain you're being too loud, it's too early. So it was definitely. I felt like I was a little bit on my, you know, walking on eggshells a little bit around that neighborhood.
Speaker 1:Granted, I would ding-dong ditch too in that neighborhood every once in a while. Yeah, yeah, we all know about ding-dong ditching. Yeah, you know, and for all of you to understand too, that Neil lived a block from us. You know, and, and for all of you to understand too, that that Neil lived a block from us. You know that. But we didn't move back to the neighborhood till 2007. I don't know how long you had been there.
Speaker 2:I yeah, I was born and raised there, so that's all I knew. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so 1996. Yeah, so I like what was it like? You know the, you know we'll, we'll, we'll leave the other neighbors unnamed, just you know for for their own privacy. But but you know, the Howard showed up and there's three boys, and one older than you, one a year younger than you. Yeah, totally, and all of a sudden you actually had neighbors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lots of them, and I got to play and it became this little stream.
Speaker 2:So between me and you actually we had two other families or even three other families and it became this kind of this little network. But then again, after some time, you start to form your little tribes and who you actually get along with, you know, start to form your little tribes and who you actually get along with, you know. And so you know, you, I myself and your, your son, we would surf and skate and you know you'd hear a basketball bounce and you kind of go peek your head around the corner like, oh they're, they're playing. And you know, go run back home. Hey, mom, I'm going to go play. You know, back by six, like, but like they're finally playing outside, I don't get this chance very much. So it was super rad to have that little strip of people to play with, really, and so to this day, like I value relationships based around play, you've got to have that and that's just kind of who I am, because I want to play, just play, play, play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I want to play Just play, play, play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, from our vantage point, you know we lived on the Upper West Side, on Miramar at the time. We'd moved there and that was like tons of families and, you know, very integrated space. You know, for us it was the first time we really got to experience that. That, you know. And and the population boom of children was just beginning, you know, as you know, you're kind of the tail end before it really blossomed right, right, like like there were not a lot of kids your age during your years. You know the high schools weren't all full at the time that you started, and it's around you and aiden's time where it's like there, you know, xers were finally having more kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the bottom line of them. With Brennan's years, everything just got big, uh, and and so you know us moving from Miramar was, was a stretch, because I knew what it was like to grow up in the jewel box and it's like, oh, no, like, like you know, five of us alone, yeah, you know, like it's a great like like oh no, like five of us alone, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a great. You have to understand where we live. It's beautiful, even where I live. Where I live is like crazy, fucking epic, even though I'm still in my house, even though I'm selling my house. You know it's a piece of magic within Santa Cruz County, within Capitola, because it's smack dab in the middle of everything, like you're five to ten minutes away from whatever you want to do, but you're not in it. You're not in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right on the edge of that sandbox, so you just get. You don't? You can escape from it, you can get a breath, you can watch it, like I mean, I can't imagine how many times after you would surf and you can still see the waves from your house. Yeah, and you're just kicking it. You're like, oh, yeah, well I'm just.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting there watching bombora, knowing who's paddling got your binos. But even more important to Kim and I was this reality that I got to have as a kid is that my kids got to experience the freedom of not like having us right next to them all the time, and like the freedom to walk a mile somewhere, anywhere, to go surf ride their bikes, do these things, and they were just not far away.
Speaker 1:They go surf, ride their bikes, do these things, and they were just not far away. But the freedom to choose and be away, as I think a young person you know, can and should, you know, if the circumstances are adequate. You know like my kids walk to junior guards every day during the summer and you know I'm not sure what the conversations were, but they had no idea we could see them on the beach, like we knew what they looked like. You know if you know you got the phone call, you pull the binoculars out and saw them getting lectures from whatever instructors over on the side and they just had no idea they wouldn't you know, like, so for us to get to have both you know both, letting them have that freedom but also eyeballs everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's definitely something the village I think holds is that there are those eyeballs everywhere, even this morning teaching surf lessons. It's good morning, hi, hello. You've seen people that you know. People are checking in with you. Everyone's very trustworthy, they're on that same wavelength, and then even the kids in the neighborhood. We were all in this. Maybe we're sheltered in a way, but we weren't too crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and it could have just been the luck of the draw, but really that I think the energy of Capitola is everyone's looking out for one another. You know people call each other hey, your garage is still up, or you know your mailbox is open, like, I don't want to go touch your mailbox. So it's just these funny little interactions and people are kind of particular. So it's just these funny little interactions and people are kind of particular. But at the same, we talked about this yesterday as the timing of you know the cadence and people have their routines. So you know you can time people the way they walk through the neighborhoods, or everyone's got their routine, because it is kind of this older neighborhood, so everyone's watching out for one another. And then you throw kids in the mix and yeah, in the beginning it gets a little like, gets a little like, oh, hey, quiet down. But eventually the kids kind of grow on the adults I feel like, um, especially some of them, maybe, um, especially if the kids are willing to talk with the adults a little bit.
Speaker 2:But uh, and then there's like me, knowing you, I'd be like man, who's this intimidating guy, like this guy's kind of scary, but then it's, then you get, I get to talk to you. So I'm like, oh, he's not, he's not scary, but you do hold, like I get to learn that, like you hold a very, you know, tight line and it's there's slack. But it's like learning slack, like hey, go learn, learn but also do things right. And that kind of felt like capitol is like, hey, we can go and play, but like this part of the playground in santa cruz is, we do things properly with some etiquette and we stay true to ourselves. You're not going to just totally just let loose and kick sand everywhere, but if you're going to go, do that, go, do that, you know, somewhere else, like um, yeah, yeah, so you know you refer to, you know capitola being a bubble inside of a bubble.
Speaker 1:Definitely, you know. And then for us to be in the bubble inside of the bubble, inside of the bubble, yeah, and, and it's very real. You know what it is that we're referring to. I know exactly what neil's saying yeah, it's hard to explain, yeah it's hard to explain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard to explain and you know, anybody from small town knows about small town bubbles, but it's got a different feel to it. But I'd like for you, for the audience, to describe. You know what the bubbles mean, for sure. You know, because there are stories I've certainly told that other older surfers have told here. You know you grew up surfing here in a, in a massive what I would consider transition moment where one of the bubbles burst. You know that held the code. You know those kinds of things I don't want to put too much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know in the conversation from my vantage point, but you know from what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:How did it feel to you yeah, I have kind of two different perspectives One it's kind of like one almost from land and then one from surfing. So I guess I could talk about the land one first. But the easiest way I could describe it would be, you know, the big bubble would be Santa Cruz as a whole and the smaller bubble is Capitola. Like we said earlier, you don't really need to leave and so there was no reason to leave and it felt like everything was there. But then you know there's more out there. But you have to break this barrier that you have up, and it's kind of this illusion of well, I have it so good here, why would I go anywhere else? Is it the crew that I know? These are the people that I know, and you, you know, go break that barrier, whether it's hang out in a different neighborhood or you go ride your bike farther than you ever have before. But I think that's also just kind of a part of growing up and understanding your environment, the surf culture, though those are some like hard rules. So on land you can kind of you're like a rubber band, you can really bend and stretch out to see how far you can go without anything snapping back at you on in the water.
Speaker 2:For me growing up, it was capital, is everything I knew. And then as far as I can go up would be the hook. Anything farther up than that was scary. Do I even belong up there? What will happen to me up there, like, will my equipment get messed up? Will I get messed up? Can I even catch waves? Am I allowed to go up there? And as a kid, you just you don't know. And then enough times you know maybe it's a small day and you're like I'm going up to the point, my friend's going up there and as a kid, you just you don't know. And then, enough times, you know maybe it's a small day and you're like I'm going up to the point, my friend's going up there, he's taking me up there, you're shaking, riding your bike to go surf. You know, just looking back at him like this is ridiculous.
Speaker 1:But but it was real. It was real. Totally real, as ridiculous as it all sounds as it is, it's totally real, as ridiculous as it all sounds as ridiculous as it is.
Speaker 2:It's so real. And then you start to see new faces and you're like, oh my gosh, these same people surf the hook when it's a big day. And then you start to expand more and more. For me, I was really lucky that my mom gave me a lot of independence as a kid as we talked about earlier, being able to go around the neighborhood and you have eyes on you. I was able to go around the neighborhood and you have eyes on you. I was able to ride my bike at a very early age to elementary school, and she allowed me to ride my bike to go surf in middle school, and so I would bike all the way up. The farthest spot I would go would be Blacks Beach, and I got to learn all these spots and observe all these spots and see how they break and see who surfs them. On certain days, without Surfline, I would just go and there'd be no report until I got home and I learned how each spot breaks and how the sand changes.
Speaker 2:But going back to this bubble, it was very real and those people that either grew up like their parents surfed or they got into surfing through other friends, it would be those people who would take you out of your bubble and so you would kind of cling on to them. And in my head I have a couple friends of mine that I clinged on to, like, hey, I am using you as this person to take me to these spots and in return, like we get to surf together and have fun. But you have more knowledge than I do and I will be a student essentially um, but it was very real, popping that bubble and going to pleasure point and then popping that bubble and going to wind and sea. And then you talk about going up north and that's a whole different story and you start to learn this behavior and you're like, oh, this is how I'm supposed to behave as a surfer. But this doesn't apply really anywhere in life and it's almost goes against how you should behave. But it works as surfing and it's so hard to explain and describe. But you know, there's times you check the point and you kind of just nowadays you just go out, you don't even check who's surfing it, you just go out and up north with a whole different handbook.
Speaker 2:It really is, and to this day I'd still use some of those codes, but I try to remove myself from those codes as much as I can and just realize, hey, I'm just going to go and surf and have fun and maybe meet new people, and if other people want to hold onto those you know hardcore codes of surfing, they can and you should still respect that, because that is kind of this foundation, um, but unfortunately now we live in this day where there's no, no bubbles are being popped, they've all kind of been popped and now people can just go wherever they want to go, which is like that's great. But there's also people kind of should start out in certain zones and build their way up, and I think that's where the bubble of Capitola was like oh my gosh. Everyone refers to this place as a beginner spot, but we both know it can turn on and not become a beginner spot yeah, my son's a captain of a lifeguard organization.
Speaker 2:It's like shit happens yeah yeah, and so popping that bubble getting out of capitol, you realize, oh my gosh, there's so much more out there. But it kind of starts this trend of, okay, what else is out there, what else is out there, like it took me so much courage to see get to that next corner and that next turn.
Speaker 1:So yeah, let's kind of sit in this a little bit. Yeah, not to rehearse too much, but for those of you who are listening to the podcast for the first time, um, there are different etiquettes depending on who's even out, you know. So, like you're referring to up North, you know I started surfing up North when I was 17. It wasn't the first time but like on a regular basis had my own car. You know I graduated from high school early, all that kind of stuff. So you know I was fairly independent person at that point. But you, you pull up to a spot you know whether it's waddell four mile. The first thing you're doing is car check yeah you know which which one of those guys?
Speaker 1:totally. You know. When I grew up at the point, you know it was a cliff check. Oh good, that guy's on the cliff right now. He looks like he surfed already. Yeah, you know, I don't have to have my boxing gloves, you know, in my back, you know, whatever it is, there are just these people that have influence, and then you maybe add a second or third and all of a sudden, that influence dominates. What's going on Like?
Speaker 2:the conditions vary any given half hour moment and your session can flip because two people paddle in and now you're having a great time, yeah, or that flips the other way, oh no, he's he or she's paddling out like um, nowadays I see it and I just don't even bother. Um, but yeah, back then, when you're amongst it, when you're really surfing, you're picking your battles, yeah, yeah yeah, and oddly, just a strange battle sometimes with yourself, but sometimes definitely, you know that.
Speaker 1:You know what I did to overcome those things was not a person I want to be anymore, but you, you know, being a Tola rat like I surf the point every day twice from the time I was 16 years old. I'm still not a point guy. You know the, the, the. The guys that are younger than me wouldn't know it, but all the guys that are my age and older know it. You know that like nah, he's not from here and like it's a mile and a half away man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know I am not from Pleasure Point and you know the main factor was my dad came and picked me up, you know, and so that saved me from all those parties that I didn't go to. That killed half my friends, you know later. You know, and that's the weird generational disparity.
Speaker 2:you know a little bit and it's one of those things where you might not know it then. But now looking at it you're like shoot, who would I have been if I was, if I showed up to one of them? Or like if you were weren't a Capitola rat, you're a pleasure point rat or something. So it's so interesting, later on in life you get to look back at that and go oh, wow it's actually worked out for the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's strange, you know, because anybody in and around I think 45 and older right now knows that we do. You know the best guys probably were the most tormented guys and they left us early. You know that you all who might see Surfers from Santa Cruz and even hear the horror stories that you've heard from some of the best pros that ever came from here, those weren't the best guys. Best guys died, you know, and that's a strange reality. You know that was normal to me growing up.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say I can't relate to that at all yeah, no, it's it.
Speaker 1:It, you know, surfing became a a parent protected sport about your, your age, which, which was look from a father standpoint, was awesome because, you know, as I've referenced more than once, all three of my boys were raised in the ways of the Jedi. You know, and you know, things happen to them that are not cool. You know, and and being one of the what I would consider first parents to enforce parental rules in a rule set that just existed. It was not a fun process, it wasn't for them, it wasn't for me, but holding it down for what was right, I used to take care of the kids that were younger than me, just growing up in general. Once I was able to learn how to fight, it was on. You're not picking on guys because they're younger than you. Like these, these are, this is our tribe, yeah so don't.
Speaker 2:And it's the next generation. You gotta try to have the next generation be better than you know yeah, just better people, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So uh, I I mean, can you, can you kind of harken back to the layers of fear that were real and the ones that weren't real?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I kind of nowadays, looking back at it, I see it as almost like NBA fights they look like they're going to throw down, they don't, or they just talk a bunch of crap, nothing happens. Talk a bunch of crap, nothing happens. And so when I started surfing the hook as a you know, I had to be 13 to probably 12, 13 years old. Um, there are certain people that I would see out there and you know I didn't want to paddle out, and then they, like you said, you pick your battles, um, and that's all you can really do. And I was kind of limited.
Speaker 2:You know, the hook was my spot. I love surfing there. I was learning the wave. Just like anybody who surfs, you should try to learn each wave. So if you have a local spot, learn that spot and take what you know, bring it to the next spot, learn that wave. But I was kind of stuck at the hook. I love surfing the hook and there's a lot of tension around that spot and it's kind of a popular zone, really fun wave. But uh, the first place that got stairs the first place.
Speaker 2:I got stairs but yeah, my, the fears that I would have, would, or anxiety that I would have, was mainly who's out there in the water. It doesn't mean they're a bad person, but it might just be like, oh, they're a wave hog or you know, I'm a little kid and they take my little inside waves and the set waves. So now I'm not going to get any waves or they're just mean in general. But I would have some people that were probably in their early twenties, late teens, that would not necessarily pick on me, but you know, they'd give me some ground beatings, but they would also in a way protect me and they would keep an eye out. So they would mess with you a little bit, take off your leash, leash, paddle it all the way out to the edge of the kelp bed. You'd have to go swim and get it. You know we get in hey, neil's at a new wetsuit. I'm like, yeah, it is. And they're like nice, and they unzip it and then give you a nice dunk. Um, so there's that behavior that like you didn't like, but it was also like their kind of way of showing love to you in a sense, where it's like, hey, like we're going to beat you up a little bit, but it's also like we want you around, um.
Speaker 2:So there was those people that you'd see out there that are in my mind. I'd be like, well, am I going to get dunked today or am I going to get a sweet wave? And it was kind of fun too at the same time. So there were those fears, but I think the biggest one is if you can show etiquette and you put in the time, even if it. I remember surfing in the Mo for my first time and rat boys out there and I was like, holy, this rat boys out here, this is crazy. Like the last thing I want to do is get in his way. So I am just going to lock my attention on him and make sure I stay out of his way, and then you don't have a problem.
Speaker 2:Right, you give him the space that they need and you're also a kid, but as an adult, yeah, you'd paddle and you'd sit and you'd join the lineup, but you also still need to show etiquette. Like this is someone who's paved the path for many surfers, inspired many surfers. Do they paddle out right away and can get priority? That's a debatable subject. If I'm out there. I hope it's. You know, I hope I already caught a wave. But it's just, you get to learn who people are and I think there's so many different styles that are out there and attitudes and egos, and you start to learn who those are so you can give them the space that they need or you can kind of facilitate it a little bit. So I was very good at observing and then fitting in where I can catch waves and how I can surf. Obviously, as you become a better surfer, people want you to get some of the set waves and they want to see you perform um, nothing worse than wiping out on your first turn on a set wave.
Speaker 1:You mean your last set wave that day? Yeah, my last set wave that day. Yeah, my first and my last yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:That's the hard truth yeah and then you just move down and sit off on, yeah, just don't even bother yeah, session's done next totally oh yeah, it was funny because, you know, rat and I both moved back to the east side at the same time and, uh, you know, from my vantage point, you know the hook was dead to me. You know, of course. Of course, when aiden starts surfing, that's where he wants to go. I'm like, oh god, no. But then rat showed up, he moved, he moved to this side of town. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be great. You know, like, finally, someone who was like top shelf, you know he's, he's putting on a demonstration to the whole crew, doesn't matter where he's out at, definitely.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember the first time seeing him surf the point. I'd never seen him surf the point. You know, I think I was like 35 at that time and I just saw him sky over two sections that close out, you know, like on the tiniest wave, and I'm like I don't even know how he made it through that wave, let alone he aired out a whole like 20 foot section to get to where he wanted to be. But I knew the balance of the force would kind of be okay with him out. I mean, I look back on those years as being really fun, I know, at least for Aiden. He and Aiden had a really good relationship at the time and for whatever reason, rat just loved him and whatever jawing that they did back and forth, it always set that whole rest of the crew we're not mentioning off because there was nothing you could do about it, because it was rat and whatever menace it was to that crew.
Speaker 1:They're maybe intimidating or they hold down the law of the unwritten rules of surfing.
Speaker 2:You see them paddle out and you're like, okay, cool, there's going to be some structure here. Like half of these guys will stop catching waves and the rest of the crew will start catching waves, and so it is interesting how it just takes one person. It can totally change the lineup, and that goes for anything party, whatever it is it just doesn't matter what it is, it's just one person. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so you mentioned sports.
Speaker 2:Sports yeah, I grew up playing all sorts of all sports soccer, baseball, basketball, football, ping pong, tennis. Later in life, now I play beach volleyball, totally love it, and it replaces pretty much any other activity. So I gotta be careful. It's not like surfing, you know, and just wipes out everything in my life. But uh, yeah. So I played all sorts of sports growing up and it was kind of on this road to hopefully playing college either baseball or basketball. And then we had an emotional moment yesterday and it's kind of interesting. Now it's like it's out of my system in a way.
Speaker 2:But my parents split up when I was in seventh grade and at this time I was doing boogie board competitions for new Brighton middle school and I would love the ocean. And then all of a sudden, bam, this moment hit and my world just got rocked. Um yeah, this last year I've been going to therapy and been talking a lot about that particular moment and what that meant in my life, as well as other learning experiences that I've had. But totally just melted on the couch and the real world hit. You don't get a whole lot of hard experiences or huge changes. So when that happened, everything went inward. I was angry, I was frustrated, confused, didn't know what was going to happen with my life structure exploded and later in life now I understand it more obviously, talking with my parents more, being older. But that moment, just those experiences I had in the water I just got taken to the water again. I wanted to surf and that became my new focus and I became hyper-focused on surfing, not only to get better, but, like I said yesterday, it was my baptism. I was able to go to this water and immediately feel better and safe. To this water and immediately feel better and safe, and I wasn't necessarily looking for role models or friends, but I was just going there for me and I liked the company and the people. But I would go to surf to get away from my problems on land and that was my getaway, that was. My drug of choice was surfing. I kept playing sports up until sophomore year of high school and I just kind of had enough. I think I was so pent up with just confusion and anger and, guidance wise, I didn't know what was happening. I didn't really have a role model anymore. My parents were my role models and now they're going through their own divorce and situation and I was also kind of this middle man between my sister. So right when it happened, it was seventh grade, so that eighth grade year, you know, things really got into motion. You know, living in different households and understanding how things work, seeing my dad every other weekend a couple hours during the week. It was just like what this isn't real, like this is why are we doing this? Just because the law says we have to do this now, why are we doing this? And it became really confusing and my sister actually left for college right when I went into high school and so I kind of became this middleman and unfortunately her and I I think our relationship suffered a little bit because of that, because of that separation. But never was I like mad at her or anything, it was just she was off doing her own thing. And it's really rad that her and I are able to build back our relationship through my parents' divorce and that's really rad that her and I are able to build back our relationship through my parents' divorce and that's really powerful.
Speaker 2:But going back to surfing, it became this sanctuary for me and, as I mentioned yesterday, I was able to go to the water and rather than screaming in a pillow or throwing tantrums, I would go underwater and I would scream and basically I would scream just until I felt that energy kind of leave my body a little bit. And I would do this quite frequently, especially paddling back out. You know you catch a good wave but you get that. You know you got that drive, that adrenaline's going, and I'd be paddling just like screaming in the water and then I'd have to go back out and line up and just sit still. But these screams underwater, you know I would. Sometimes I would just even go body surf or boogie board and I would scream underwater and over time I realized I was just. You know, there were just bubbles were being created, and it was in that moment. It's like, oh my goodness, the ocean has unlimited mercy, but at the same time it doesn't care and so it'll kill you, but it also can hold all the energy and it just that switch. I was like ocean is where I need to be and it just isn't quite the same with lakes or rivers. But being able to surf and you can try to rip a wave to pieces and you might think you're doing really good, but it's still a wave at the end of the day and it's still going to break and it'll be gone forever. So that surfing and just pushing as hard as you can, trying to throw the biggest air possible it doesn't make sense to throw a ball as hard as you can at a basketball hoop. I couldn't do that, and so surfing was that outlet, it was the sanctuary.
Speaker 2:And then I got to meet so many rad people. Not only meeting those people was beneficial to me, but it made me realize that all like half I swear half a surfer, surf because of some sort of trauma. Not, they're not choosing to surf because of trauma, but they decided to go surf and they realized, oh my god, this felt so healing and I want to do this again. And they start doing it more and more and their life changes. It's this therapeutic experience, almost like going into the woods Um, you don't know it until you do it and circling all the way back to now to be able to have a business, to share that experience.
Speaker 2:I've been teaching surf lessons for a long time and I always loved it because it got me in the water and I got to share that experience with other people. And people sometimes would cry, they would laugh, they would quit their job, they would start surfing and I'm like, dude, you have a family and a job like you should not be quitting your job to come and surf. But they were like no, this matters to me. My health and wellness and well-being matters to me more than some job. So the fact that the ocean and surfing has that power is really indescribable and the fact that I got to experience that at a young age is just, it's kind of in me forever.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it was a very emotional time. I had a lot of anger, a lot of frustration. I even have a couple of friends that were like, yeah, dude, you're kind of a dick, you know, and I was like like, yeah, I just didn't know how to handle my emotions and there'd be times where my mom would you need to go surf, go surf. Get out of the house, go surf. Get your head underwater, go surf.
Speaker 1:Yes, every wise woman I know, whether it's a wife or a mom when the attitude needs to get in check with a man. It's been uttered more than a thousand times, by my wife at least Like you need to go surf, like you need to get and that's what she calls it you need to get baptized Like whatever that thing is that is surfing, whatever that thing is that is surfing, and it's certainly not something that's away from my heart anymore, given everything I've shared about where I'm at with surfing, that reality that there is something about just being in the water, being in the element. You know seeing the things you see out in the water.
Speaker 2:You know not just the people people but the actual water, yeah, and it's totally a spectrum of. There's this really funny video of this australian kid and he's crying because he wants to get one more wave. He's maybe three or four years old and then you get, you know, people in their 70s and they want to get one more wave. So it's this whole spectrum and we all share that and I think we do share this core value of surfing and its nature. It's in the environment, it's real. I mean, it's kind of this mystical sport and we try to call it a sport and try to. It just doesn't really work, though I hate it when people call it a sport. It's not a sport, it's's a lifestyle, it's a feeling, and it's really hard to describe that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, no, there's a magic to it, there is an addictive side to it, which can be frankly dangerous, I guess is the best way to put it. You know like it's, you know, for the church folk. You know, in my pastor days everybody was always concerned about a surfer, you know, because that surfing thing and that's all they ever want to do, and it's like well, have you done it before?
Speaker 2:Well, and with surfing, the windows are so short, so when the waves are on, like you really do got to drop everything to score that day. So it's not like a skate park or say, snowboarding where the resort is there. I mean, granted, there's powder days, but surfing, yeah, you got to drop everything. And then you're being very selfish and you hopefully, those relationships that you're in, you're on good terms, yeah, with a hundred other selfish people trying to do the same thing.
Speaker 1:Hopefully we're friends when we're done. Yeah, you know, and and again coming off for a conversation yesterday, you know that there's there's a lot that happened and I'm sorry you all don't get to hear. You know all of it. It was. It was neil and I actually getting to know each other for the first time and you know it, it's anybody who's a grown-ass adult, who's watched kids grow up.
Speaker 1:you know, there's a shift in relationship and that was one of the things I wanted to capture, which was well-captured. It just didn't land on the SD card.
Speaker 2:It was between us. It was between us.
Speaker 1:But you know now that the moment's captured a little bit, you know, bringing back this element of of like we really didn't know each other, even though we'd known each other for decades yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know it, it, it, uh, but but that juxtapose of who you thought I was, who now who you know, I am also the juxtapose of who you thought I was, who now who you know. I am also the juxtapose of who you thought I was and then who you knew I was, up till the point of even yesterday. You know that, those realities, that that, that surfing, you know as well as you know I think team sports can provide a little bit of that Also. You know, when you, when you have a coach who's been in your life, been a particular influence, then you all grow up.
Speaker 2:I mean their voice stays in your head, especially with coaches. But I'm definitely one that look like, whether you're a politician or a celebrity like I don't know, know you so I can't judge right. You can judge off of word of mouth and rumors and stories, but you don't really know someone until you get to sit down and talk with them or spend some time with them. So it was exciting and kind of nerve-wracking. I was like, oh man, I get to sit down with you and talk like what's?
Speaker 2:I wonder what's it gonna be like a slight panic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I loved your description yesterday. You don't need to do it again. But but, uh, you know that the this reality that I don't want to say it's hard being me, but I look mean as fuck sometimes. It's just I have a German scowl for my dad. It's not really how I am really in any way, other than in very precise moments where where all that stuff gets like, where the look on my face matches the actions that are coming. You know, but you know I'm growing up too right. You know it's like I'm. You know, but you know I'm growing up too right. You know it's like I'm. You know I had my last kid when I was 30. You know, I know I'm as intimidating as I'll get out. If you surf, it's even worse. You know, it's like oh, he's one of those guys and I'm not sure whether this is going to be okay, unpredictable guys, and I'm not sure whether this is gonna be okay, unpredictable, but.
Speaker 1:But you know the but. But I think that's common actually to to most people that we have these images of adults around us and and uh, you know, and then that threshold really got broken. You know, like I said 24 hours ago, but but, uh, these thresholds, I think that need to be to be broken in humanity that we do have concepts about each other because of particular experiences, that I think it's important to let go of what we think we know about people 100% yeah.
Speaker 1:Because we all just are people and we're all trying to learn how to do this thing called life, right, just our people. And and we're all trying to learn how to do this thing called life and and, uh, and, and I think surfing, probably more than any other thing that I've done, like it, it holds a thing in a different way. You know, like, like those experiences that you can have out in the water, even about who we're not mentioning out of these surf spots, like those guys are still those guys to me, like I, I don't, I don't see them as human. You know that they're like, I know that's that guy, I don't even want to.
Speaker 1:I don't want to know that guy, I don't want to like. I know what I had to happen with that guy and I'm good.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm like there's a spectrum of core lords that are out there and, uh, you gotta respect them all and we're all on our own little surfing journey and I'm just stoked that we're able to to surf and to share. That, too, is incredible. It's done so much. I mean, who would we be without surfing? You know, yeah, and I really don't, I really don't know yeah and and again, unfortunately, on on on my side.
Speaker 1:you know, with the way that the audience has heard from me, you know they're, they've listened to a process of me letting go of surfing. You know, and and uh, you know for all of you, I got fairly admonished from my wife about my last little soliloquy. She's like, did you actually say you're not sure if you're a surfer? She was upset at me and I'm clearly letting go of some identity issues that I just held on to from having a place where I was known. But there was a particular role that I played and I don't know that I've ever wanted to be that person. It was just the person I had to be to function out in that culture and that's really what I'm letting go of.
Speaker 1:You know, that being said, had to grab a hold of surfing again. You know I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm now what I've always hated. You know, like Neil's sitting here looking at the repertoire of 200 boards sitting in my shop because I'm moving and I can't have surfboards at my house right now because apparently anybody who buys my house won't really like surfers because of its price. But so you know he's looking and I hate to tell you, neil, I actually got rid of about 15 boards to last year, just game away, so like to call myself not a surfer is ridiculous given yeah, I mean you're in a different chapter, but, but, but it's all, but it's also like we're surrounded by by my relative history oh, I mean, I still remember that soft top or the twin fin.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, the all the boys rode that all your kids rode that but, but you know this, this new reality that, as I told you yesterday, I'm getting a 10-footer. I'm probably going to buy some fresh wave storms, even though they're $250 now, and I'm going to. You know, I just found an M23 on Facebook but it's gone already. I'm getting that mid-length and that's just going to be my shortboard. Like this is my life now. If I, if I know how to enjoy surfing the way that I want to be in my heart, it does not require my old go-to six, two that's.
Speaker 2:That's still sitting out of my view and I I definitely don't think you know you're alone in that process of re-evaluating surfing. Um, as we talked about earlier on my own experiences going through your you know my phases of surfing but I definitely think it's good to re-evaluate a relationship with a sport not a sport, but with a sport lifestyle that you know you had to be a part of and to either to fit in or to be able to surf and enjoy yourself and get waves and enjoy the lifestyle that surfing creates and the feelings that surfing gives. Especially in this town it was very competitive hard knocks. I mean I didn't even grow up in the hard knocks era, I grew up on the very tail end of it and that to me was pretty gnarly going out to some spots and seeing fights as a kid and you're like oh whoa, this is crazy. And people would be like you don't even know it was like 20 years ago. I was like I don't want to know what it was like 20 years ago. Really, I don't.
Speaker 2:I like the trajectory that surfing is going, but with that we still have to follow rules and etiquette and safety. We can't just throw those out of the window. So there still needs to be that regulation side of it, because there there are no set rules, it's everything's unwritten and we kind of have to share that with one another. Like, hey, this is how this spot function, this spot functions, these are the locals. You know, this is where they call themselves, you know their spot is home and so you should respect that. Um, yeah, I mean I think it's rad that, as you're maybe stepping away from surfing and in that your last podcast, when you mentioned, you were down in Chile and seeing the surf and you're like, actually, I'm just going to stand here for a second and watch this all unravel it reminded me of. I watched this show called Meat Eater.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a great show.
Speaker 2:Another one where this photographer goes to Antarctica or the Arctic and he's trying to get this photo and finally this animal comes into his frame and he's with his friend. His friend's like are you going to take it? Or not? Like what are you doing? Why aren't you taking the photo? He's like I just want to be here. I traveled all this way and you know you have the buck in your crosshairs and I'm not going to pull the trigger, I'm not going to press the button, I'm just going to be in the moment.
Speaker 2:I think that's that next chapter and for me it was kind of forced through injuries, but prior to that it was that same. Hey, I'm going to take a step back and kind of reevaluate my surfing. Same thing with me taking a break from alcohol. I was like, hey, I grew up high school, college drinking alcohol, partying. I'm going to take a break and reevaluate my whole perception of alcohol and how I want to drink alcohol and beverages of choice. So I think it's really powerful and I think it's really cool especially for you being such a gnarly guy out in the water for you to reevaluate. Hey, what does surfing mean to me? How do I want to represent surfing and show that for the next generation and for guys that are your age who might be struggling with that, like, hey, I was a gnarly guy in the water for, say, 25 years. How do I change that? Or how do I do I hop on a mid-length, am I?
Speaker 1:supposed to ride. I mean, I've gotten away with the waves for the last five years.
Speaker 2:I'd rather see you on a mid-length than a wave I know that's, I'm gonna ride my way every time I see you just to bug you.
Speaker 1:oh man, um, is it okay if we talk about mental health and sobriety? I guess it would be in the middle of that Because thematically, at least with many of the men that have come through, it has been a topic that I think is relevant. It's really important right now because, whatever COVID is or was, that moment seemed to break humanity around here at least yeah like the mental health crisis that I'm bearing with witness to.
Speaker 1:You know the mania whether it's political mania or ideological mania like it's manic behavior that I'm certainly seeing around me, whether it's in the news or just my clients. Like all that kind of stuff, people are broken and as someone who was clinically depressed most of their life as I've shared with you, the audience, that my physical depression went away two years ago it's been weird to wake up in a good mood every day, like I'm a new person. You know there's certainly a lot of work that's gone into that.
Speaker 2:And I think that needs to be addressed as the work that you've put in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know that work is complex, not because the information is complex, it's. Everybody has to work it out the way they work it out. But I'd love to hear at least part of your story as it pertains to that, because COVID is where at least the alcohol set in. For me it really the drinking in the morning, that kind of stuff. You know. The drinking in the morning, that kind of stuff, you know, when you're not sure what the future is holding. You know it was an easy way to numb myself from this next layer of feelings. You know, that being said, that was for me who I'm turning into.
Speaker 1:I certainly love a hell of a lot more than the person that was a really good guy. Well before that, you know it's like it's not, like there's not a whole lot to report. You know I hate to tell you, when I showed up to AA meetings listening to stories, I didn't have the same stories. I was a fairly quiet drunk. You know who was still a good guy. The only major shift, you know, other than what my family experienced, because I still knew how to work, I know what I'm doing. I didn't operate too far outside of those boundaries. The only shift for me is for the first time I started really showing up surfing and it wasn't drunk, drunk whatever, half-cocked. Have a couple shots go surf.
Speaker 2:Alcohol was in your system. Alcohol was in my system.
Speaker 1:But it was the first time I slowed down. For me it was like I'm here to get three waves and just chill, and you know, like I saw everything that was going around me for the first time cause I wasn't in the noise and that was the first time I had slowed like the angst that I had surfing all of a sudden was gone because I was no longer wave focused, I was just focused on being there and you know it opened my eyes to some things about who I was and and you know what's transpired since then. Um, you know, not so much going to AA, but the process that I was introduced to from it, with all the tools that I already had in my toolbox, you know, just got all rearranged. From it, with all the tools that I already had in my toolbox, you know, just got all rearranged. That thing, that moment I think you had. You know, a moment, not necessarily, you know with alcohol, but you know, COVID, you know, got you in crisis mode.
Speaker 1:I guess a little bit of an awareness of all that was going on with you and, and as you've mentioned, you went to therapy.
Speaker 2:You're going to therapy you know.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure what your relationship is, but but maybe you can, you know, share a little bit about that yeah, I'd love to open up about it.
Speaker 2:I think it's we mentioned this earlier it's very powerful to talk about it out loud and then, even on a platform like this, it even becomes a little bit more intense because you're like, oh man, people are going to listen to this. But I would say for me, first off, covid for me was fun. I wasn't getting paid by the government and I was traveling, so it really wasn't that bad for me in particular, and I was still in school, so I got to focus on that. Yeah, I had to deal with some of the, the friendships and the. You know your small circle and you're limited. But I again, I kind of I'm pretty optimistic and I try to channel my friend Troy. He's very positive and he just sees the good in everything. So he's like dude, just don't even focus on the negative, just look at the positive and that's it. He's like it's pretty simple.
Speaker 2:But I would definitely say that for me you know my parents divorce hung with me until probably this past year and it wasn't until, let's see, I stopped this break that I took. I basically took a year of not drinking and a year of silence and just learning about myself. That year started after my best friend, troy's wedding. So I was like, hey, I will drink, I will party at his wedding. Then after that, I'm taking my year and I was shocked to see how my own brain works, how my body feels, learning about myself in a way I was totally unaware of, and through that I started going to therapy in that year and having a professional recognize how you're feeling is either valid or not valid helps tremendously. Um, I got to shed emotions and she took me to places that I have never been to in my mind and I was holding onto things that I thought were really, really scary. But once I got to them I realized it was the fact that I was holding on to it for so long. That was the scary part is like almost like you know, being a certain surfer, you're this identity and then you realize, okay, I don't like this anymore, I've had enough. It's time to see what's behind the curtain and who I really am. And she is a great therapist and she showed me that the divorce, yeah, it had an impact, but it doesn't determine who I am and things that I was scared of and these barriers that I had up. I was starting to break them down and analyze them and see them.
Speaker 2:That choice for me to stop drinking for the year was actually inspired by a couple of voices you know, like Andrew Huberman talking about alcohol, and really it was Kyle Tierman on the Kyle Tierman show he mentioned he's like, oh, I'm going to take a break from alcohol for a year. And that stuck in my head for like a couple of years and I was like at some point I'm going to stop for a year and I don't know when that's going to be, but at some point I'll stop. And I chose that timing and from there it's been totally different. I rarely drink anymore. Um, I used to party a lot. I wouldn't say I would consistently drink, but when I would drink it would. That would be getting pretty messed up, um, and it'd be a little bit embarrassing too sometimes. So it was a health decision.
Speaker 2:I was going through a breakup and I wanted my behavior to be true and intentional. I didn't want alcohol choosing these behaviors for me. And it was a health decision. I was going through a breakup. It just kind of felt like the right timing and it taught me how I can go out and have fun. I can still go to parties, not drink, have just as much fun, if not more fun, and feel better about myself the next day, health-wise inflammation was down, clarity.
Speaker 2:And even the other day my new girlfriend, I should say and I went out and I had a beer and I was like this is disgusting. And I never thought I would pour beer out in the sink. I was like this is actually gross. Maybe it was old, I don't know. It was in my fridge for a while so I was like, okay, wow, it kind of hit me like my body is shifting and really I think therapy was a key component of that, combined with making a personal choice for myself. I think it would have been totally different if I was drinking and going to therapy or like had substances.
Speaker 2:So I think giving yourself that time to clear out the voices in your head is really important. I've done trips to Big Sur where I just go by myself and I'll spend the day or two days or three days and I'll actually start to go a little bit crazy Cause I want to go talk to somebody. I was like, okay, voices are cleared, but you have to get past that. Like okay, I'm going to go talk to somebody now, but you stay with it and you keep working on yourself and you get to this next point, this next point, this next point, and things just start to become clearer and clearer on who you are and who you want to be. And everyone's kind of on their own journey, but we're on this journey together because we need each other. Um, but I'd say the biggest one through therapy was self-care. People are adults. They can say no and they can say yes. They're making choices too and trusting your gut, and that's a practice that I'm still trying. It's just your intuition, practicing your gut.
Speaker 2:The third one would be let your feelings go. If you're feeling a certain way towards someone, just express it right then and there, because it wants. Yeah, you can still express it a little bit later on, but to get in that habit of just expressing it right then and there, I think is the most beneficial for me. And, like you said, everyone's got their own styles, um, so for me, I figured that to help my own mental health has been going into the silence, taking the time. It doesn't have to be very long, it could literally be a 15-minute nap, like hey, I'm kind of feeling a little anxious, overwhelmed, angsty and a little bit irritated. I'm going to go lay down for 15 minutes and just calm my mind, or I'm going to go jump in the water. So yeah, I would say, going into the silence, trying to work on my real feelings is a big one. I'm a true believer that everyone should go experience therapy.
Speaker 2:I had no idea what I was getting myself into. It was kind of awkward in the beginning and then, once we started rolling, it was just layers after layers after layers and I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize how deep this is and how much I'm hanging on to things subconsciously. Um and that's another aspect too is I closed out news sources, uh, media? I had no idea what was going on in the world for the last year and I'd hear it by word of mouth and I'd be like I mean no offense, but I was like I. It was weeks until I knew what the Palisades fire was. I was oblivious and it made me realize like we're really not meant to know all this information. Word of mouth is so different because it's not in your face and certain colors and frequency. It's word of mouth and you can kind of take it as it is and then you can make the choice to go research it so, rather than it being fed to you. So it's like hey, I heard about this thing, I'm going to go check it out.
Speaker 2:If I do scroll, if I do go on the news, I try to set some sort of timer, but I find myself just I'm not good. So I learned that my brain is not good. With social media, I start to get, I start to second guess myself. Who am I? What's going on? Um lose control. But without it, I feel like, okay, cool, this is reality, you know. So so can I yeah, please navigate.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, I, no, I want to play counselor for a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Not with you Alongside you, yeah, not personal, I'm totally open to whatever your story For whatever.
Speaker 1:I hate even using the word educational For whatever informational purpose. This can help anybody else that there's like three components that stick out to me in our conversation. You know one of them is the wound Right you know which which begins informing. You know so it shapes who you are as a person because you start guarding yourself. You know so it shapes who you are as a person because you start guarding yourself. But the two elements that you know, the wound is personal, we all have our wounds, but the sequence, the sobriety and the silence you know in the sobriety is kind of the nature of, I think, how we can contextualize this a little bit more and kind of get into more data points that might be relatable.
Speaker 1:First of all, I want us to kind of have a premise about what sobriety means, and I think because places like AA and other organizations that are helping people stop being intoxicated, the assumption is sobriety is not drinking, sobriety is perspective of deciding to see things for what they are and it's deciding to be conscious of the things that are around you, as opposed to being unconscious or subconscious in your behaviors around the things that you're seeing and ignoring.
Speaker 1:And at least from a scriptural standpoint, the church has done a horrible job about using words like repentance as going the other direction or having good works from having seen things from what they are, from having seen things from what they are, when really you know sobriety is probably the easiest english term to use what it means to like, decide, to get clear, you know, and that is to stop ignoring what is happening around you, including your participation in your behaviors based on your trauma. You know experience, you know this. This is where therapy is a really great tool, because you can begin to, you know, peel off the layers of like wow, I didn't even know. I thought that, yeah, there it is. And wow, that's from when I was 12. Yeah, Like I'm 29. Like I'm not 12 anymore. Right, you know.
Speaker 2:And learning how to break down the barrier. Like, the barrier was up for me for a long time and I didn't know how to break it down, and so going to therapy was a tool that was. You know, she literally gave me a couple of new tools and I was, wow, that's. It was, in a weird sense, like it was that simple. Sure, it took a year, but man, what if I did this 10 years ago, you know? And so now for me, I get to have these new feelings, whether it's with my partner or with my parents, even towards my dog, like these feelings are now flowing, you know, from my heart to my brain, through my body, that there used to be a barrier between my brain and my heart and I wouldn't let people in, I wouldn't let true emotion come in. And so, yeah, like you said, that silence, and then that sobriety, part of it, seeing the actual truth and acceptance of what it is.
Speaker 1:It's not how you see, it's not how you saw it, like, right, I mean? And again, acceptance is another one of these words. I mean, we talked about this yesterday. I, I don't, it's not that I don't like it, it's just that, well, there's just some things that are unacceptable. So, like, acceptance sounds like a weird way to say it, but you know, again, I think this is where sobriety loses its luster a little bit as a term, also because we think we're talking about alcohol.
Speaker 1:The nature of alcohol is that it is a spirit. You know there's a spiritual nature to it and what it does is it dulls your view of how things really are. And I don't think alcohol is wrong, that's not that, not at all. You know it's utility until it's not, you know it'll it's utility until it owns your life, you know, until it way I would address alcohol. But there's a lot of things that we can do. You know I look back.
Speaker 1:What did I need to sober up from Surfing? You know, it's like it had shaped my whole worldview. You know, and it's not as though I behave that way all the time, no, it was only for an hour and a half two hours any given given day. But I'm a different animal for those two hours. And who is that animal? That animal is angry. That animal is competitive. That animal has to behave this way to get what it wants, you know, and to sober up from that thing, not mature out of it like that's. I think maturity is bullshit. You can mature into it further, you know, like maturity is whatever it is you're doing and practicing.
Speaker 2:Are there any other outlets that you find, like Jiu-Jitsu or like for me? I found some other outlets that almost took the place of surfing.
Speaker 1:Well, again, you know, and this has been spoken about a lot on the podcast. Again, you know, and this has been spoken about a lot on the podcast, you know it's. I think it's hard for people who don't like pain to understand jiu-jitsu. Jiu-jitsu was the safest place for me, you know, because finally, the pain I was experiencing mentally was happening physically and you had to address it Like like you're not thinking about anything else when you're on that mat, because if you think about something else, your ankles broken, your arms broken or you're choked out and you might die.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you're on a wave like, you can't think of anything else besides that wave.
Speaker 1:If you want to surf it right, yeah, yeah, so so jujitsu for me, ended up being a space where I could be introduced to this concept of looking at the world with sober eyes, because you have to be hyper-focused. And I don't know if I'm good or bad at jujitsu, I just know the guys I can beat, but I certainly know the guys that can beat me more, guys that can beat me more, you know. So it was. Jujitsu for me was the first time I didn't have to bring this competitive personality in, because there's no way to compete.
Speaker 1:That black belt has got your number. It doesn't matter whether he's 120 pounds or 240 pounds. Like you're not getting past that thing because, whatever it is, you learned there's six other options that they're going to take and I don't care whether it's a female or a male. Like you're living in humility. You don't come humble. You're getting your ass kicked. You act confident in the wrong moment. You're getting your ass broken because it just isn't allowed on the mat. Like you don't get to bring your ego, you got to put your ego at the front door. So jujitsu was, oddly, the safest culture I've ever operated in, because they're kind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me that was the volleyball community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very welcoming they want you there, they want you there yeah.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't matter if you're a beginner or you're an expert. You're sharing this passion and you know that everyone wants a beginner and you progress, that one person who is bad can someday beat you, and it's also a team sport in a way. Right, you're interacting with someone and you've got to trust them, like, hey, my shoulder hurts, can we stay?
Speaker 1:off of that side, and if that person doesn't do that, it's a, it's like hey where's your?
Speaker 2:you know respect and what's going on. Same thing with volleyball. It's like, hey, we're playing with this person who's a beginner and we all three might all be you know advanced players and you want to show that person respect and you want to introduce them properly into the sport. Yeah, I mean it's. I think for me, surfing it was my outlet, but I knew at some point I needed to find other outlets because it was unhealthy. You know skipping dinners and skipping holidays just to go surf. Relationships started crumbling. It's like, okay, I really like my addiction, but I also kind of like my life on land too. So you got to manage that. But it's so hard when you're progressing. It's so fun and the waves are so good in Santa Cruz all the time, so you can surf every single day. And it's the classic like, oh, you're dating a surfer or you know your husband's a surfer.
Speaker 2:Surf widow? Yeah, yeah, so it's, but then at the same time, you hope that they can understand that this surfing makes you feel good, and but then also you have to do your own self-work about okay, why do I like it so much? Is there?
Speaker 1:other things, when I can't go surf, that I can still almost get that sensation or that energy out of me. So, yeah, you know it's. You know to kind of finalize any thoughts I have about jujitsu, it was the first place that I experienced real mercy because, make no mistake, you're learning how to kill each other Like there's no getting around that common reality that, unless you tap, you are the regulator of what. But real mercy is like that's where it is, with a group of thugs that were the kindest people around because you knew what they could do that they weren't doing. So you could learn their willingness to be injured by you, as long as you were willing to learn and stay in line. It was like, oh, that's what mercy looks like. It's like it's a battle to the death, but as long as you're willing to abide by the subset of rules of like, if you just put your ego away, I'll let you learn on me. Like it was life changing to go, because it's so physical, like there's just no way around it. You're never going to get good enough Like never. There's always. You know, it's always the running joke, you know everything until the white belt that doesn't know your rules shows up one day Totally, this wrestler that only wrestled for one year in junior high, who doesn't know all the stuff you think you know, and he's got another angle and you learn what you learned from who you learned it from. They know something different and they're bringing a new approach, and so it's a piece of humility that that's what those guys are showing up for every day. That that's what those guys are showing up for every day, and that the common humility you know is crazy.
Speaker 1:And you know, of course you'll see videos of really good guys snapping guys' legs. I just saw one yesterday. I don't know why. My son showed it to me. You know, from a guy that didn't come in humble to one of the world's best, and he's talking to him the whole time Like are you really doing this, are you really trying to? And just breaks his leg Like dude, you're trying to kill me. You know, like so that was mercy to that guy is getting his leg broken. You know, as opposed to him, like getting completely choked out and three other limbs broken. So it's not like necessarily world, it depends on which club you're at. My club's really, no, but a bunch of old guys there. So we're nice to each other. But you know, sober view, yeah, you know, like you know. Again back to what you said an hour ago, you know it's nba out out in the water for the most part.
Speaker 1:You know a bunch of guys chattering and you know, but things not really happening.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't mean it gives you the excuse to go behave a certain way just because it's just chattering. That chattering does escalate into something else, but I think for the most part it comes from a place of you know who are you? What are you doing here? Do you know the rules and safety? Like I can't tell you how many times I paddle up to a spot and I get snapped on and I'm like I just paddled out here, yeah, and then they see you surf and they're like oh, so sorry for yelling at you, my bad. And I'm like yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, like you could just seen, you know the crew that came came out surf and then if there's someone that may be a hazard, then sure address that hazard. If you know the person can't surf well enough or they're not behaving, yeah well enough, then you can address harm people because they're.
Speaker 1:They're right for most part. We're talking about people that have nine foot weapons. They don't realize the danger of of that thing, but I feel like this is a good segue to get to silence. You know, like you, you have already done something that I'm just in the process of finishing myself. You know I sat in silence with myself. I do it every morning and I pet a dog and I am gentle parenting.
Speaker 1:So is it the dog or is it the silence? It's both. You know you're sitting in the presence of an animal that loves you wholly, that wants nothing but to please you. All they need is your affection. They're going to make mistakes. How are you going to respond? Like how I would parent different this time around. You know, because when you meet my dog, you go oh, like, wow, like, how did you get such a good dog? I don't know that my dog is good, I just know I'm being better with an animal than I've ever been.
Speaker 1:But it was at the time that I decided like, hey, I want to hear the voices behind the voices. Behind those voices, like, what am I really saying to myself? And can I get to that spot where there's just nothing being said, and I'm petting my dog, you know. No urgency, no, no, oh, I got to get to work at 10. No preparing for my day. I got to get to work at 10, no preparing for my day, other than eventually I have to take a shower and put my clothes on and drive to work, and then, whatever energy I face, I will have the answers. I don't need to prepare. You know that thing. Um, what has it been like for you learning to live in the silence of you know, not just dealing with your past, but now walking into a future, making conscious choices, not having subconscious reactions.
Speaker 2:I definitely think it's practice. I'm not perfect, I don't have it dialed down, but I definitely recognize moments where I need the silence. So to not be scared to go back into it, I think is important. Create time, and it could be something as simple, as sometimes I'll just walk to the beach and sit on the beach for a bit and, yeah, there's noises around me. But I just need this time for myself and for my mind to organize itself. And that's kind of been my practice, my practice and it's amazing, once I cleared some gunk out of my brain, if you will. It's not like it's gone, but it's just things come and go a little bit easier and I think it might just be experiences age.
Speaker 2:At a certain point I did take psychedelics by myself. It was just my dog and I and that was pretty profound and I think that kind of opened up a lot of networks and emotions for me just to come in and out of these emotions and realize, oh my gosh, I have this door is open now and it can. It helps me just kind of break another barrier, but I don't really know how too far to go with the silence part. Besides, it's a tool and it's worked for me, and I did it during a long stretch of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, during a long stretch of time, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think you get to a point where you're like, okay, it's time to go back to my real world here, kind of like therapy. At a certain point we got to this time where I was like, hey, we're going to stop these therapy sessions it went from every week to every other week to once a month to, hey, I think we're good for now, I can always come back, let's go live your life. And so that's where I kind of was at. I was like, okay, I think I've done this self work and it's time to go apply that to my life. Now I can't just keep doing this self work forever. I got to go live my life and apply what I've learned to my life. But I can't forget that what I've learned. So I got to apply that in little bits, here and there. I can always come back. Um, that's the easier part is coming back, but moving forward is tough um, yeah.
Speaker 1:So let let just for a couple minutes talk about moving forward being tough. Um, I don't want to presume upon you would. Would you call yourself a depressed person?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say depressed, but I would definitely say during it's crazy. Because I'm like you and this is so ironic like you when I bought my life, it was so easy to wake up and get started on my day and I was happy, but it was also, I think, the therapy. And getting to that point and whether I have work or I don't have work, I still wake up at 6 o'clock and I'm like ready to go. And I was telling my girlfriend, like I don't have work, I still wake up at six o'clock and I'm like ready to go.
Speaker 1:I'm like and I was telling my girlfriend like I don't know what's happening, but like it's kind of weird.
Speaker 2:I'm like, I think I'm happy, Like I'm like man, I actually think I'm happy. Is this what feeling happy feels like? And so then it makes me question you know, shoot, was I depressed and kind of living with this weight for so long Like I wouldn't consider myself depressed, but I would say there was a blanket over me that was suppressing my true feelings, or maybe I was too scared to express who I really was? So, yeah, whether it was depression or I was kind of suppressing these feelings or ignoring them. I had a breakthrough, and I think you know these feelings right now, where I get to wake up and I'm like right, All right, I wonder what the day is going to bring today. That might pass too, and I might go back to this. I don't want to wake up today, feeling, and that's okay. But just knowing that the other feeling does exist is so rad to feel and to see, and knowing that I can get back to there For me now I can't imagine how being a dad must feel, or these other sensations of life.
Speaker 1:You know a little bit. You had a dog.
Speaker 2:I have a dog, yeah. You could kick your dog. It's like having a toddler for 15 years, you know so I'm just kidding people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, peta, don't come after us.
Speaker 2:So it's that what was I saying. It was the. I lost my train of thought there.
Speaker 1:Because I said kick a dog. Kick a dog, kick a dog, wait what? Yeah, it threw me off. Um, what was your questions? It was well, I, I asked, I asked you if you would. You would call what you went through depression. But yeah it's okay.
Speaker 1:This, yeah, this great segue, because, uh, again, I think these are important nuances to to unpack, because you know, at large, I I do think that the world sunk into a depression of sorts. You know, like anybody who is depressed or bipolar or whatever else, just listen to what you said and like, oh, that dude was depressed his whole life, right, but that's not how you define it because your experience, you know, because of the joy, like you've always been the kindest guy, you know like I've loved you, thanks. You know from the beginning, like you've always been the kindest guy.
Speaker 2:You know like I've loved you. Thanks, you know from the beginning.
Speaker 1:Like. It's not like you know, you're just a great human. You always seemed happy to me. That's your natural disposition, you know, like a happy person can't be a depressed person.
Speaker 2:Right. Totally Like in the categories that we have in life.
Speaker 1:Totally In the categories that we have in life. That being said, there's this new reality because, you've said it multiple times, it's a little scary facing this next phase and I'm, ironically, facing it at the same time. You are of like, okay, this feels like what I used to call depression, but what it really is is pause, and I'm conscious and it's like I don't know what to do next. But I need to do something next.
Speaker 2:But it's weird, I have a choice and that choice and like for me, realizing that things are going to happen kind of like you petting your dog in the morning and be like whatever happens today is is get like I'm going to go to work and whatever comes my way is going to come my way, what and these choices whether it's having kids, a family moving, what I'm going to do in two years?
Speaker 2:If I just focus on the present and just be day-to-day, if I could just be present just day-to-day, eventually whatever is going to happen is going to happen. But if I focus on something that's going to happen two years from now, I'm going to miss everything between that. And I think that in itself is another practice. And it's really hard, especially when I look at my calendar and I just have three weeks of things filled up. But I really just need to look at today and be present in the moment. And it's really really hard to do, especially in the world that we live in, and I think that's another reason why going to that silence is really important and it's uncomfortable and it's boring, but out of that boredom you start to hear yourself for the first time.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you called it boring Because it's like you know it is. Look, I've said multiple times, I do not recommend necessarily going into silence Like it is.
Speaker 2:And go somewhere fun, go somewhere cool, but just be quiet with yourself, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is hard because it is boring and if you look back, based on behavior, what you had to do to stop yourself from being bored, you know. Look at any heroin addict and I'll show you a very intelligent person that was afraid to be bored. You know it's. It's, you know, like when you're in the rooms in AA, it's incredibly complex because it's like these are some of the smartest people I've ever met and it's like the nature of substance abuse is so entangling to that Like these are people that could have changed the world.
Speaker 2:Oh, 1000%. You know it's like it's humbling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, you know, I know I'm pretty smart, but it's like I'm sitting next to the smartest guy possible ever. Like and like whoa, like ever like, and like, whoa, like, like dude, like, like I get it, unfortunately. I get it like I'm glad I didn't have to do the shit you did to wake up, but like, wow, like that, that's heavy.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. You say that because I learned that firsthand. My my dad owns a business over in wattsville called mid valley supply and I'm trying to remember the rehab center. But this guy applied for the job and we hired him and he worked there for about a year. He was a user and was homeless for about 10 years and he gave me the ins and outs of homelessness, mental health, and he was so, again, one of the smartest people I've been around, so intelligent, and I'm just looking at him like dude, you could have been, you could have changed society. Like you're the energy that you have and like, yeah, we're working long days, but it's like the energy that you have and the intelligence that comes along with it is natural intelligence, not like it's. He's not learning things, it's just naturally occurring. It's just kind of this phenomenon that's happening. It makes me reconsider mental health and homelessness and I'm like man is. Are these substances almost being used to? Like dumb down some of the smartest people around?
Speaker 2:Like what's going on here CIA conspiracy, but then at the same time time it's a whole spectrum, but I was just amazed by it. You know, I'm like man like to your point. I was just like in awe, really yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know for, I guess, those of you that that might be going through something similar that Neil and I are going through, which might be why you're attracted to these conversations, or whatever else. You know this reality of like. You know, once you've begun to address that inner turmoil, that then is gone. Let it be confirming yeah, it's boring. Yeah, it's boring, like it's really like it's hard to pick it up again.
Speaker 1:You know I go to jujitsu. You know something I used to do four or more days a week and now it's like you know it's been so life-giving. But like how to pick that up again consciously, not out of some drive to get peace or whatever else. Like I'm sitting in peace right now and it's scary. Like it's scary, like the things that I watch people worrying about and you're like, oh, that's right, I was there.
Speaker 2:Like I was there two years ago Like and it doesn't mean we're ever going to go back there and everyone has their own perspective and own trauma and own experience.
Speaker 2:But I think the more we talk about it and share how we've dealt through issues and I'm not saying I'm gonna, you know, for the hopefully I live to 100, the next 70 years of my life is going to be bliss. It's not going to be like that, but knowing that certain feelings do exist, that gives me hope and that gives me that drive to live and to experience the feelings of life. And there's experiences that I have no idea, that are ahead for me, and feelings that I know of. Like just this year there have been feelings I've never felt before and so I can't imagine what the rest of life might feel like. So I can't imagine what the rest of life might feel like and you know whether it's the best barrel of my life or it's being the woman of your dreams or having kids or whatever it may be Like. It's life's full of so many feelings and I think for me I had to let go of some barriers that I had up to let those feelings in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. That's really well put. Okay. Last question what drives you now Like, like, like you know what, what are the things that, when you wake up in the morning, like, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm moving this direction.
Speaker 2:If I have surf lessons, it's trying to give the best surf lesson possible the entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:You're on the track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if I have surf lessons like. I really want to share that love of surfing and that experience that surfing can give. But for me personally, it's curiosity and the experiences that life give us, the feelings like what I just talked about. So, really being curious on what the day brings and taking it slow, and I think practicing being in that present moment allows me to just see the world functioning, and that curiosity will take me around the corner, kind of following the white rabbit, you know, here and there. So, yeah, I'd say more than anything, just being curious about life and that's kind of where I'm at right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah well, thanks for sharing all that okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I I get to leave it on my final note here. You know I I first want to thank you just for coming and being open and honest. Thanks for giving us a second shot. I think we did better even this time. I was so sad yesterday oh man, that was such a good interview, but I think we got to a spot where we could go to.
Speaker 1:I want you to know from me just what I'm grateful for for you as a human. Thank you. Like who you've been, you know to my one son that you know, like the friend that you've been. Like I've been watching you for a long time and I am so grateful for the human being you've been, the human being that you are to. You know, as I told my wife yesterday, I'm like god, neil's just a good guy. Like like you're not gonna believe, like I told her what happened. Like he's crying, like he's just like you. Just do that to everybody. You know it's like I know, but like he's a really good guy.
Speaker 1:Like I can't wait not just to watch the expression of friendship that you've gotten, just on a personal level, but like I am so stoked to see an entrepreneurial spirit coming out of this town that, frankly, there's a hopelessness that lives here, like the ability to be able to stay here is a near impossibility. And you, like the other young folks that I have interviewed, it makes me so proud and so glad to be from here to see you guys holding the torch, keeping the man down. You know, it's not that I think corporations are evil, it's none of that. It's just that, like this reality, that you have the strength and the willingness to pick the sword up and give it a shot. Man, go for it. You know. And what I'm telling you if you want to learn how to surf, call capitol a surf paddle. You can call uh, what's? What's matt's business?
Speaker 2:oh we don't want to talk about that business their second phone call.
Speaker 1:Matt's a good friend of mine.
Speaker 2:No, he's. He's got a great. I worked for him for four years.
Speaker 1:He's a great guy.
Speaker 2:If you're ever in Capitola, you can choose Capitola Surf and Paddle, which would be my company. You can give us a call or book online. Same with Capitola Beach Company.
Speaker 1:That's Matt's business, matt's doing okay, so we want to support him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, matt's doing great, but he's a man. I learned so much from him too, and he's a great guy.
Speaker 1:He's a good man. He's a good man. Anyways, Neil, thanks so much for coming on the program Appreciate you a bunch I need a. Kleenex. Yeah, you know, always making people cry, that's just all part of the program. So to all the rest of you, you have a.